Was the U.S. Invading Iraq and Russia invading Crimea morally equivalent?

[Douglas Carpenter]

10 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	No, the Russian invasion of Crimea is worse.
	1 (10%)
	No, the U.S. invasion of Iraq was worse
	4 (40%)
	Both invasions were and are morally reprehensible. There is little or no point in arguing which one is worse.
	5 (50%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[cali]

1. I suppose it depends on the criteria one uses to arrive at a judgment

In terms of impact on world affairs and certainly in terms of deaths and casualties, Iraq was far, far worse.

[JoePhilly]

5. Of course one statred ~10 years ago, the other ... about a month ago.

Trying to compare these events on world impact won't make much sense for quite a while.

If Putin, over the next 10 years, uses the Crimea as a way to grab the rest of Ukrane, or other parts of the former Soviet Union, such a comparison could be very different.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. Did it start a month ago? I bet the Tartars would say the Russian expansion into Crimea

dates back at least to the ethnic cleansing of the Tatar people in 1944, forced onto boxcars and relocated to Central Asia so that Russians could move onto their lands and into their homes. People here often say 'Crimea has a Russian majority' and that's how they got that majority, by killing and kidnapping the indigenous Muslim population.
Just a bit of history....

[JoePhilly]

17. This particular episode.

Or are you suggesting that the longer time period you refer to makes the Iraq war look less bad?

[cali]

15. true enough, but I do think the comparison is not only fair- but inevitable.

does shock and awe ring a bell?

[onehandle]

2. Difficult. Both were clearly acts by corrupt regimes. But as Cali said, Iraq was far, far worse. nt

[phleshdef]

3. The invasion of Iraq was worse. But thats not what the President was saying yesterday.

And anyone with a brain realizes that, even if they would rather LIE about it.

[JoePhilly]

7. Yea but ...

.. that kind of perspective doesn't drive recs.

[11 Bravo]

4. Both were in violation of international law, but one of them led to a Hell of a lot more ...

death and suffering.

[JoePhilly]

6. So far.

The Iraq war lasted a long time ... Putin's actions in Crimea started about a month ago, and we don't know where he plans to take things.

[el_bryanto]

34. Aren't you using your DU Crystal Ball, distributed to all good members of DU?

In mine I note that Nate Silver is going to be secretly revealed as the 9th Bush Brother, separated at birth, but aligned in evil. Once I turn to the Crimean war, it's hard to get an exact feel for how bad the occupation because we all lose interest in the Crimea by May of 2014.


Bryant

[Supersedeas]

8. collateral damage

[LittleBlue]

9. The hundreds of thousands dead make the Iraq invastion much worse

It's not even a question, really. People are free to lie to themselves and pretend we can't determine which is worse, of course.

[PeteSelman]

10. I think Iraq was not only worse but much, much worse.

Russia didn't destroy Crimea, kill hundreds of thousands of people and rob not only the Crimean people but also their own while doing what they did.

Iraq was a much worse transgression.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. They already did that in 1944, removed a couple of hundred thousand Tatars by force

from Crimea, packed onto boxcars and sent to Central Asia while Russians moved into Crimea and onto Tatar lands. One of the swiftest and most complete mass deportations of a people in the history of the world.
Iraq probably worse, but to say Russia did not do things they have been doing for generations is just not a complete form of the truth....

[PeteSelman]

16. That was 70 years ago.

None of that happened this time. We're talking about this particular incident compared to Iraq.

[JackRiddler]

21. That transhistorical Russia, damn the bear!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

11. Both were morally wrong. The only noticeable difference:

One being pretty much a complete book, while the other may merely be the first chapter.

And one does not preclude speaking out against the other.

Russia was correct in opposing the Bush administration's actions, for whatever the reason be. And we would still be correct in opposing Russia's current acts of aggression.

The time is now.

[Supersedeas]

14. the right to speak out is important--how you speak out counts as well

[One_Life_To_Give]

18. Depends what one assumes the US knew

Saddam was playing a dangerous game trying to convince his neighbors that he had hidden his WMD's. Presumably he feared Iran and others learning the truth.

If you assume the administration knew the truth but manipulated the uncertainty Saddam fostered. Then it's clearly worse.

If you assume the administration should have known, it's know better than Crimea.

If you assume Saddam's misinformation had confused even the US intelligence community about the reality. Then Crimea is a worse abuse.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. Even if they did sincerely think Iraq had some WMD's, did they seriously think Iraq was a threat to

its neighbors or to the United States or its interest? It is clear from public statements made by both Colin Powell and
Condoleezza Rice in early 2001 - that they did not.

[One_Life_To_Give]

31. Eventually not enforcing rules has their own consequences

If you create rules, laws, or in this case UN resolutions, but never enforce them. It causes others to eventually just ignore them. Much like a section of highway when people learn the police will not enforce speed limits, and 65-70 becomes 80-90. So you sometimes need to pick one, so that the many will obey the rule.

IMO what is really sad is that during the troop buildup it became increasingly obvious that the weapons did not exist. Saddams 11th hour attempts to hold power or get out with his skin intact made that abundantly clear, even if you bought the lies and distortions being presented as intel. But nobody could bring themselves to stand down the army.

[JackRiddler]

22. The US bloody well knew...

Having been the main participant in the complete disarming and demolition of Iraqi WMD capability after the original Gulf War. I can't believe people buy these myths still.

[Crunchy Frog]

24. I remember the run up to the Iraq invasion very clearly

And the manipulations and lies couldn't have been more transparent and blatant. I remember that there were international inspectors on the ground, and they were not being interfered with in any significant way.

The US may have believed that they could find something they could technically classify as a WMD and technically use to justify the invasion, but I didn't buy for a second that they thought Iraq actually had anything that represented an actual threat.

Putin is at least being more honest and straightforward with his justifications.

[Gothmog]

20. To use a legal term, what President Obama did was to distinguish the Iraq war from Crimea

Remember that President Obama is a lawyer and a law professor. What President Obama did in his speech was to distinguish the Iraq war from the situation in Crimea. Here is a simplified explanation of this concept. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/distinguish

Distinguish
To set apart as being separate or different; to point out an essential disparity.

To distinguish one case from another case means to show the dissimilarities between the two. It means to prove a case that is cited as applicable to the case currently in dispute is really inapplicable because the two cases are different.

The Iraq war is a very different situation compared to the conduct of Russia in annexing Crimea. In his speech, President Obama did not defend the Iraq war but merely explained why the Iraq war was not relevant to the conduct of Russia in annexing Crimea.

As a lawyer, there is a huge difference here.

[Skip Intro]

23. Unless I missed Russia's "shock and awe" offensive, the answer is pretty clear. n/t

[baldguy]

25. Is blaming Obama for the Iraq invation morally equivalent to blaming Obama for the Crimea invation?

Because that's what the Republicans are doing.

[cthulu2016]

26. No, blaming Obama for Iraq would be worse

They are both silly, but blaming a US President for something overseas is always more plausble and potentially defensible than blaming an Illinois state senator.

[baldguy]

27. If it rains a bit, Obama gets blamed for a flood.

If it doesn't rain for a bit, Obama gets blamed for a drought.

The objective is to blame Obama - and ultimately weaken support for Democrats.

[morningfog]

33. I see the objective as pointing out Obama said something

stupid and offensive. No onesie blaming him for Iraq, and no one with any sense blames him for Crimea. We can blame him for saying something very stupid.

[mike_c]

28. I'm sorry-- the invasion of Iraq was an international crime against humanity....

A significant majority of Crimeans favors annexation by Russia. There has been no shock-and-awe aerial barrage. No one is "lighting up" civilian vehicles just for the hell of it. The Russian army has not killed a million innocent civilians. There is very little equivalence. The U.S. invasion and destruction of Iraq was FAR worse. Remember Chelsea Manning's video leak? Russian soldiers are not helicopter hunting journalists in Crimea. The annexation was not proceeded by a decade of crippling sanctions designed to kill civilian children by the hundreds of thousands. Russian marines have not done anything in Crimea even remotely like the atrocities U.S. marines committed in Fallujah. I could go on.

Anyone who thinks there is even a sliver of equivalence between the U.S. war of aggression against Irag and Russia's annexation of a population who mostly wants to be annexed has utterly forgotten what was done in our names in Iraq.

Let me remind them:

[Separation]

29. I would have to say Panama

The invasion of Panama would be most like the Crimean invasion. Bush Sr. used the protection of American citizens as his reason to invade. American troops were allowed in the country so moving troops in weren't an issue.

[OmahaBlueDog]

30. Agreed

The facts that Panama is in the so-called US sphere of influence and Ukraine is a former S.S.R. strengthen that parallel.

[JVS]

32. The Suez Crisis also comes to mind.