I Will Do My Best To Make This My Last OP On Obama's Brussels Remarks, But...

[WillyT]

You have to realize that at first glance, those remarks were like taking a lit cigarette, and putting it in an open wound that never healed.

Many of us, marched several times against Bush's march to war with Iraq. We also chose Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton because of the words he said regarding war with Iraq. We also knocked on doors, manned phone banks, put out mailers, went to rallies for POTUS, based on his stance on the Iraq War, and the other words he spoke while campaigning.

So...

Whether "in-artful", "off the cuff", or a momentary lapse or reason... Those comments stung... a lot.

And if you actually look at the media's reaction, on the Left, they felt stung too.

Nobody has accused him of lying (that I'm aware of), just maybe putting his foot in his mouth.

I'm just saying that he chose a very "strange", "weird", "odd" way to explain himself.

And the initial reaction... was understandable.

Before the ACA... his signature... Stance... was against the Iraq War.

It distinguished him from Hillary, and then McCain.

And most of us haven't gotten over the way GWB actually got crowned President.

And most of us are still hurting over that, and the lies that led us to fuck up another country...

A country who had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

So I hope you can find it in your hearts to excuse us for being more that a little sickened and pissed.

That is all.

[Jesus Malverde]

1. 100,000 to one million dead.

We all should be pissed.

Trillions of our dollars down the sewer for neocons and empire.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. An the criminals who did it are at large,

repaying this Administration's failure to prosecute them by sniping at them with impunity. Rummy, Cheney, the whole lot of them.

[Jesus Malverde]

9. We're actually supposed to defend the administration from these criminals running wild...

They should all be in jail. Instead the NeoCons are plotting their next moves.

[go west young man]

32. You've hit the nail on the head

in regards to the poetic justice aspect of this incident. The fact that Obama never went after them and has instead remained largely centrist has bit him in the ass in a round about way. He left so many of them in their positions and even went so far as to have Victoria Nulland at the helm in Ukraine. The US has never had a reckoning for the Iraq War and it hangs there in the air like a silent elephant in the corner of the room. It hasn't been addressed in terms of justice and that's what truly came home in Brussels. The world and the Iraqi people still wait for justice every day as more and more people are killed by car bombs as a result of our destabilization.

[zeemike]

47. I would have been satisfied with much less.

Like saying it was a big mistake and ending the war in Afghanistan and shutting the doors at Gitmo...even if he did nothing else.
But he has done none of that and instead goes to Africa with the chimp and is all cozy with him.
And now trying to justify it all...that is not the change I voted for...it is no change at all.

[Scuba]

2. Yeah, in my mind anything short of condemning it would have been better left unsaid.

[Skittles]

6. EXACTLY

if you don't have the courage to call it what it was then don't say ANYTHING

[dflprincess]

21. Exactly! n/t

[G_j]

11. yes! because it was a CRIME!

and no amount of tap dancing and mincing legal terms will convince me or millions of people around the world otherwise!

[840high]

28. Yes.

[Gothmog]

90. I listened President Obama's comments on my car radio when he made the speech

I admit that I am a lawyer but I did not hear a defense of the Iraq war but the normal response of a lawyer (remember President Obama is a lawyer and a law professor) who distinguished the Iraq war from the actions of Russia in Crimea. President Obama's comments were not a defense of the Iraq war and I am really confused by the comments who believe that President Obama was defending the Iraq war.

Words have meanings and the words used by President Obama did not constitute a defense of the war in Iraq.

[Scuba]

95. I did not/would not say he "defended" the Iraq war, but he certainly fell far short ....

... of condemning it. What he did say suggested the US actions were in line with international law (the seeking UN approval part) when in fact The Shrubster was hell-bent to go to war, UN approval or not.

It is the lack of a moral stance on the topic that I found disturbing.

[Gothmog]

101. President Obama was making a legal point that the Iraq invasion is different from Crimea

President Obama presented facts that are true even if you disagree with these facts. I personally think that bush, cheney, rice and rumsfeld lied to the American people about the reasons for the war in Iraq but these lies do not change the fact that the Iraq invasion is very different under international law compared to the annexation of Crimea by Russia. The US did work with the UN on this invasion compared to the complete lack of concern by Putin concerning international law. That is a difference.

President Obama has condemned the war in the past and President Obama did get us out of Iraq as soon as possible. I do not think that he is required to condemn this war in every speech and such a condemnation would have been a distraction from the legal argument being made. Look, the actual words of President Obama's address in Belgium are true and the Iraqi invasion is very different under international law compared to the complete annexation of Crimea by Russia. In the legal world, facts and words actually matter.

[Scuba]

102. I didn't say he didn't tell the truth, I said he didn't take a strong stand against illegal war.

Why say anything about our exploit of Iraq if you can't do that?

[Gothmog]

103. Having to make legal arguments, it is difficult enough without adding unnecessary elements

President Obama was making the case under international law that Putin's claims about the annexation of Crimea were false and part of that legal argument was distinguishing or pointing out the legal differences between the Iraq invasion and the annexation of Crimea. President Obama acknowledged that he disagree with the premise of the war and spending any more time on that concept would have distracted from and hurt the legal case that he was making.

I was on law review when I was in law school and I can see the pros and cons on how President Obama framed his argument. While I still hate bush, rice, cheney and rumsfeld for lying about the reasons for the war, I agree with the way the President Obama framed this argument. Again, making complicated legal arguments is not that easy and I understand why President Obama framed his argument.

[Scuba]

105. So why mention Iraq at all?

[Gothmog]

108. Because Putin was using Iraq as an excuse for annexing Crimea

President Obama was responding to the arguments made by Putin. Putin argued that the US and the UK had no grounds to condemn his actions due to Iraq war. Obama could not ignore this argument by Putin

[Scuba]

116. Well then he should have condemned our illegal war and Putin's too, eh?

The idea that ours was "less illegal" is preposterous.

[Gothmog]

118. I disagree

The legal argument had to be made and President Obama did a good job in making a complex legal argument before the world community.

Russia has 50,000 to 100,000 troops on the Ukraine border. We really need to have an united front with our European allies if we do not want to see Russia take all of eastern Ukraine. President Obama hopefully generated enough opposition to Putin so that Putin may be deterred.

If you look at the purpose of the speech, President Obama's argument was well done.

[Scuba]

119. I disagree.

[Gothmog]

120. Which is fine with me

You are entitled to your opinion and I entitled to my opinion. We can disagree without being disagreeable. I think that we are not too far apart in that we both hate the Iraq war and I still have very strong feelings about bush, cheney, rice and rumsfeld. There is really a disagreement as to when it is appropriate or necessary to attack the Iraq war.

[lumpy]

109. I appreciate your post, refreshing to see a level headed reasoned post regarding Obama's

speech. I am afraid many people go to far in trying to find fault with Obama without stopping to think.

[Gothmog]

111. Thank you

There are some on this board who do not like lawyers. That is a hazard of the profession

[Jack Rabbit]

121. Obama didn't defend the war, but . . .

he defended the Bushies' attempt to make it legal. That was offensive to me, perhaps as much so as if he had actually defended the war.

One can twist and turn and spin all one likes, but the war had nothing to do with national security and everything to do with expropriating Iraq's oil. The only thng from which the Iraqi people were liberated was their mineral rights. The war was sold to Congress on a pack of lies that few others in the international community believed. The resolution authorizing war was withdrawn for fear that it would be voted down in the security council. As ham handed acts by an American president go, it topped the old record held by Richard Nixon for the Saturday Night Massacre.

[ctsnowman]

96. Yup.

[Skittles]

4. thank you

[WillyT]

7. Love You...

[Skittles]

15. back at ya my sweet

[bigwillq]

5. K and R

Good post.

[WillyT]

8. Thank You !!!

[JaneyVee]

10. I don't think it was that big a deal. I think everyone

Is over reacting, hair on fire crowd.

[Marr]

12. Your indifference to illegal wars of choice is noted.

But then, I expect you'll rediscover your moral objections to such things once a Republican is back in office.

[JaneyVee]

13. Riiiiiiight. What a strange post.

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. that sounds just like Republican pretzel logic to me.....

there are not two sides to every issue....

[malokvale77]

128. Not strange at all

Your reply is far more strange.

[lumpy]

110. Your insult to JaneyVee is well noted. She was referring to the speech not the Bush War.

[Marr]

113. Obviously.

But those remarks were actually about something. They were about the invasion of Iraq. Believe it or not, many here consider a politician's position on that topic to actually be somewhat important.

[lumpy]

115. Insults do not win a damn thing.

[JaneyVee]

133. Ironically, the debate is about context & nuance...

[lumpy]

140. Your snide remarks to well intentioned decent posters of choice is noted .

But then, I expect you'll rediscover your moral objections to such things once a Jackass is back in office

[WillyT]

14. Over Reacting... Is There Such A Thing... To This ???

[JaneyVee]

16. I was referring to Obama's remarks. Obviously.

Yes, some people here on DU are over reacting to a snippet of his speech where he chose to not point out that 4000 US soldiers died in vein, probably out of respect for their families. Thats why he's Prez and you're not.

[go west young man]

34. It was actually 4500 soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

[WillyT]

62. You're Right... I Could Not Live With Myself With Results Like That...

Good that you can... I suppose...

[lumpy]

114. Why do you sling insults at this poster? Accusitory unfounded remarks deserve apology.

This is no way to gain respect for your posts or opinions.
i.e. implying about the poster "Good that you can" (live with herself with results of war)
A shame.

[malokvale77]

131. Why do you sling insults at WillyT?

How does that gain respect for your posts or opinions?

¨i.e. implying about the poster "Good that you can" (live with herself with results of war)¨

What was unfounded about his reply? You both own that. Shame indeed.

I don´t think WillyT is in need of any apology.

[WillyT]

136. It's Typical... What Many Don't Understand Is That WE Did That !!!

Partisans will attempt to scrub the blood from their hands... but WE did that.

Our system allowed that son-of-a-bitch to get into that office, 9/11 gave him a global fucking blank-check, Democrats wet themselves at not going along with the war drums (except for Barbara Lee), and so I DO NOT BUY...

It was solely GWB & Dick Cheney's War...

Too many Dems were herded into that corral and bleated for mercy.

THAT is why we hear charming word salads from our so-called leaders on a clearly illegal action.

With torture, and rendition, and GITMO, and drones, et. al.

[malokvale77]

138. It is all so puke worthy

It is also so very clear what we are up against.

I am growing old, but I am encouraged by my children and grandchildren who will continue forward.

[lumpy]

139. Looks like you didn't read Willies post; it was insulting to the poster Janey Vee.

He says to her, regarding the horrible results of war that, "good that you can live with yourself" seeing the results of war. Read the damn snide reply from WillyT and if you don't understand that as an insult than you are very dense (this is an insult directed at you. Enjoy)
It doesn't gain respect for posts when posters make personal remarks.
I think you, malo77, get a hard on by insulting others. (That's an insult whether it is true or not)

[JaneyVee]

134. Its not even insulting, its bizarre.

How poster seems to enjoy putting words in peoples mouths.

[840high]

29. I weep.

[WillyT]

30. me too

[lumpy]

117. You should

[WillyT]

123. And You Don't ???

Sad...

[Marr]

142. Imagine how partisan you'd have to be

to see this simply as an attack on your favorite politician. Partisans or personality cultists or whatever these people are, view everything through the lens of 'what does this mean for my guy?'. It's sad and sick and very tiresome.

[lumpy]

112. JaneyVee was refering to the overreaction to Obama's speech not Bush's War.

Slow down

[1000words]

20. I didn't see that coming ...

[JaneyVee]

22. I forgive you.

[JoePhilly]

25. Their outrage meter is ...

... stuck on 11.

Everything is the worst thing ever. Until next week's worst thing ever.

[morningfog]

40. Of course you do. Not a surprise at all.

[JohnRogan]

17. that pretty much sums it up for me as well!

I am here with long ago DUer 8643 who says me too!

[WillyT]

19. Thank You For That !!!

Say "Hey" to 8643 !!!

[MrMickeysMom]

18. That's a good way to finalize, WillyT...

I ruined my feet marching in 2003, January, worked like HELL, and was even encouraged to run and win election myself, believing…

I'm sickened by so much of this. To thine own's self, be true.

Thanks for your post…

[WillyT]

23. Anytime... MrMickeysMom, Anytime...

And thank you.

[rhett o rick]

24. How will you feel it he decides to pardon the war criminals.

I see the justification on the wall. "We need to put this behind us."

We need to make it clear that we dont want pardons for the war criminals.

[WillyT]

26. By Actions As Precedent... He Already Has.

[They_Live]

27. As I understand it, he already gave them immunity

https://www.commondreams.org/further/2013/08/26

[Progressive dog]

31. Please try haeder.

President Obama is President of the whole USA, not just a handful of people who think they werre essential to his election. I expect him to defend the USA first and to promote democracy and freedom in other nations. I don't expect him to spend his time re-litigating a war that he ended. It is over, it is time to move on.

[pragmatic_dem]

39. Bullshit, he granted amnesty to war criminals, unprincipaled and politically expedient, if you love

war as a "realistic way of life" and the needless slaughter of 100s of thousands of people doesn't get you angry, then you are on the outer fringes, far right of the center.

There is a Republican Party who would sympathize with you. Go spread your pragmatic realism to your brothers in arms who might take comfort in your apologies.

And it certainly isn't old news, barely 10 years past the horror, many vets are out of work, 10s of thousands missing limbs and we will be paying for it for generations.

Start taking an interest in the world around and get out of the way of those fighting to make a difference. If you want the status quo, join the Republicans.

As it is, "centrist" apologies and ambivalence about critical matters of truth and justice is hurting everyone.

[Progressive dog]

44. So Obama granted amnesty to war criminals, on whatever world you live in.

That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

[pragmatic_dem]

48. dead men, women and children stacked up like cord wood from those shitty wars and the

perpetrators are all free. A war based on lies. Every goddamn word, a lie. Obama even consulted with Condi Rice, just before it turned out the famous surge in Iraq was even more bullshit. But too late, Obama went on his Afghan surge and in a couple of years killed more soldiers and more civilians there than Bush did during his entire two terms.

Obama didn't end the wars on his own, anger at the violence and waste of money ended those wars.

[Progressive dog]

50. Wow quite a lot of hate for the Democratic president

because he talked to Condi Rice. I guess he should have asked Vladimir for advice.
Actually, civilian deaths in Iraq are about 10:1 over Afghanistan and soldiers are 2:1, but I have noticed that you don't let truth interfere with your hatred of Obama.

[rhett o rick]

58. Cant you have a discussion without accusing others of "hatred of Obama"? nm

[Progressive dog]

60. Not when they make up stuff to hate him for

and never admit it and certainly never apologize. And you know what, they do it on a board that supposedly has a purpose of electing Democrats, of which Obama is the top elected Democrat.

[JohnRogan]

69. were you out in the rain?

cause you are all wet on this.

[L0oniX]

73. ...

...maybe left in a hot car as a child?

[malokvale77]

135. That or...

one of the other things really bad parents do.

[lumpy]

141. God you are so eridite, baby !

[pragmatic_dem]

65. i hate conservative lies, yours are no exception

Over 70% of all US troop casualties in Afghanistan occurred by end of Obama's first term.

Apology not accepted.

[Progressive dog]

67. If you hated them, you wouldn't continue

making them.

[PowerToThePeople]

49. It is true, on this world.

Did not specifically grant amnesty, but has not pursued any form of justice.

[Progressive dog]

51. Yup, in your world not pursuing justice is

the same as granting amnesty.
The Democratic congress didn't even try to impeach Bush or Cheney. They must be complicit in this failure to pursue justice.

[PowerToThePeople]

54. They are complicit. That is a true statement.

[Progressive dog]

78. Thank You, I just wanted to know if it was just the President or

the Democrats you had a problem with.

[PowerToThePeople]

84. I have a problem with those who authorized an illegal war

and a problem with those who continue to sweep it under the rug.

http://americablog.com/2013/03/in-memoriam-the-iraq-war-how-they-voted-in-the-senate-why-you-should-care.html

The Iraq War: Who voted for it, why you should still care (hint: Iran)
3/20/2013 10:00am by Gaius Publius

March 19 marked the 10-year anniversary of the Iraq War. On that day the bombs started falling.

This is the war no one wants to remember, since, as the Professor says, almost everyone in media position to talk about it today, screwed up big time back then (my emphasis):

There’s a very big anniversary coming up next week — the start of the Iraq war. So why does there seem to be so little coverage?

Well, it’s not hard to think of a reason: a lot of people behaved badly in the runup to that war, and many though not all people in the news media behaved especially badly. … To come out against the war, let alone to suggest that the Bush administration was deliberately misleading the nation into war, looked all too likely to be a career-ending stance. And there were all too few profiles in courage.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/liberalleadership/a/IraqNayVote.htm

Progressive (Blue)dog

[Progressive dog]

85. If everyone knows about it, how has it been swept under the rug?

OH, you mean the Iraq war, which was ended by the current President, was his fault.

[PowerToThePeople]

86. if you say so

bit.ly/1gypyh8

[JohnRogan]

71. They clearly are complicit, we are no longer a country of laws.

[Progressive dog]

75. We are a country of laws and under

those laws the Congress gets to decide whether to impeach or not.

[JohnRogan]

79. I dont think you have a clear understanding of where we are and where we have been.

just how long have you been an observer of the American political system?

[Progressive dog]

80. Where's the beef to go with the condescension?

[JohnRogan]

81. simply not worth the effort

others have said it already, I was just curious as to your political background, your demographics, simply because your position is so divergent from your user ID.

[Progressive dog]

82. I thought you must have something substantive to say, but I was wrong.

[malokvale77]

137. That was my thought

The name is a real misnomer.

No amount of ¨beef¨ will satisfy them.

[rhett o rick]

53. If you disagree, why dont you provide an argument instead of blather? nm

[Progressive dog]

57. Since Obama did not grant amnesty to anyone

there is no argument to be made.
He did grant de facto amnesty to millions of "illegal immigrants" according to the RW news, but even they don't accuse him of granting it to Bush-Cheney.

[WillyT]

45. You Need To Try haeder.

Does one smoke it, or snort it?

[Progressive dog]

46. Cute, I think I'll leave the typo since it gives

you something to comment on.

[WillyT]

52. Oh Hell Man... I'll Kick My Own Posts Without Batting An Eye...

"Something to comment on ???"

[rhett o rick]

55. So you support him giving Bush and gang pardons? Is that what you are saying? nm

[Progressive dog]

56. No but he didn't give them pardons

Are you really claiming that he did?

[MFM008]

64. sorry

i disagree. We cant just say "OOPS" and move on. I mean they will, but we shouldnt.

[L0oniX]

74. I love drones too.

[Progressive dog]

76. Are you upset because you don't have your own drone?

[L0oniX]

77. Who says I don't?

[malokvale77]

132. I´ll try haeder if you do (nt)

[iamthebandfanman]

33. Some of us

chose neither of them, as we knew they were both corporate shills.


but I have to admit, even I got swept up in the things the president was doing and saying at the end of the primary and lead up to the general election.
definitely felt like maybe he was going to finally be a left wing populace that showed our policies worked if given a chance...

since I live in KY, didn't get a chance to vote in the primary until the end (in may).. and proudly gave it to him. definitely seemed like the better choice between himself and Clinton (who had been a republican and a lawyer for WalMart) to me. especially given all that her husband conceded too during his presidency (DOMA, DADT, Welfare Reform, NAFTA, Glass-Steagall, etc...). I knew I definitely didn't want another centrist sell out... bowing down and playing by the rules RAY GUN started... but looks like that may have been what we got anyway. it was a false choice all along I suppose.. and I knew it..
but election night sure felt good in 2008.

that being said...
could always be worse.
definitely glad there hasn't been another republican in office the last 5 years, that's for sure.

[WillyT]

35. I Hear Ya... I Think Something Grabs Them By The Lapels When They Enter The Oval Office...

[mike_c]

36. +1

eom

[joanbarnes]

37. Ditto

[raindaddy]

38. Agreed!

100%

[Iwillnevergiveup]

41. Great post, WillyT

It does occur to me (especially when vampires like Cheney and Rumsfeld pop up on the TV as if they are relevant) that I am still mourning the election of 2000. It caused so much death and destruction, homelessness, Gitmo, torture, corruption, lies, etc., etc.

We should be so much better than that.

K&R

[WillyT]

42. Thank You For That !!!

[pragmatic_dem]

43. Obama is trying to rewrite history, just another brilliant chess move by the zen master. nt

[bobduca]

61. K&R

[go west young man]

63. Russian reaction to Obama's speech.

http://rt.com/op-edge/us-foreign-policy-bullying-493/

[cali]

66. You speak for me with this post, Willy. Heartfelt thanks.

[WillyT]

68. Thank You, Cali

[NuttyFluffers]

70. needless war of choice requires nothing less than outrage.

the death and destruction deserve far more seriousness.

[L0oniX]

72. When a government lies to its people whom it is to represent ..it is not a government of the people.

[ProSense]

83. Oh

"Whether "in-artful", "off the cuff", or a momentary lapse or reason... Those comments stung... a lot."

...the drama over a spin about what the President actually said.

Moreover, Russia has pointed to America’s decision to go into Iraq as an example of Western hypocrisy. Now, it is true that the Iraq War was a subject of vigorous debate not just around the world, but in the United States as well. I participated in that debate and I opposed our military intervention there. But even in Iraq, America sought to work within the international system. We did not claim or annex Iraq’s territory. We did not grab its resources for our own gain. Instead, we ended our war and left Iraq to its people and a fully sovereign Iraqi state that could make decisions about its own future.

Of course, neither the United States nor Europe are perfect in adherence to our ideals, nor do we claim to be the sole arbiter of what is right or wrong in the world. We are human, after all, and we face difficult choices about how to exercise our power. But part of what makes us different is that we welcome criticism, just as we welcome the responsibilities that come with global leadership.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/26/remarks-president-address-european-youth

There was in fact a process to work with the international community...right up until Bush violated all agreements. On that score, Bush's and Putin's invasions are illegal.

Obama did defend his own actions in Iraq: ending the war and leaving it a sovereign state.

Still, simply looking at that statement you were "stung," "sickened and pissed"?

[NCTraveler]

88. "stung," "sickened and pissed"

No, they really weren't.

[beerandjesus]

87. Great post, thanks! .............But:

Amazing to me how some feel the need to flame you for summing it up thus:

"So I hope you can find it in your hearts to excuse us for being more that a little sickened and pissed."


In other words, you're asking ostensible Democrats for compassion--and they're attacking you. And they have the nerve to act as if we liberals were crypto-baggers.

[Gothmog]

89. Remember that President Obama is a lawyer and a law professor

President Obama did not defend the war in Iraq. What President Obama did in his speech was to distinguish the Iraq war from the situation in Crimea. Here is a simplified explanation of this concept. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/distinguish

Distinguish
To set apart as being separate or different; to point out an essential disparity.

To distinguish one case from another case means to show the dissimilarities between the two. It means to prove a case that is cited as applicable to the case currently in dispute is really inapplicable because the two cases are different.

The Iraq war is a very different situation compared to the conduct of Russia in annexing Crimea. In his speech, President Obama did not defend the Iraq war but merely explained why the Iraq war was not relevant to the conduct of Russia in annexing Crimea.

As a lawyer, there is a huge difference here. There was no "defense" of the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq is very different in an number of key respects from the war in Iraq and President Obama was pointing out these differences to show that Putin's claims were false. The UN ratified the US actions in Iraq and there was no annexation of Iraq. These differences are very important when comparing Iraq to Russia's annexation of Crimea

[n2doc]

91. Agree totally

Even though there have been signs, that speech really drove home how much Obama has changed since he became president. He has completely embraced the establishment in foreign policy. He actually sounded proud of what had been done to Iraq.

[Zen Democrat]

92. Listen to what he said. He didn't "excuse" the Iraq War.

He said that unlike Russia in the Crimea, we didn't annex Iraq. We left.

[cui bono]

107. We left it in ruins. And it was on the pretense that they caused 9/11.

They had NOTHING to do with 9/11.

You think that's better?

He should not have said anything. To bring it up any comparison only invites criticism and scrutiny over his words and further comparison, which is not helping anything.

100,00 innocent Iraqi deaths.
4500 American troops dead - thousands more maimed and still suffering from PTSD
A functioning country left torn apart
Women's rights obliterated in Iraq due to Shiria control

Oh yea, that's so much better.

[Rilgin]

93. He avoids criticism from those who will not vote for Democrats anyway

To start I will say I am one of those very disappointed by Obama's presidency. However, I do not believe at heart that Obama is a war-monger or hawk. I think he is a neo-con but is a social system president (neo-liberal solutions to the health care and education systems) rather than a defense president like most Republicans.

I believe that military issues always put Democrats in a box. If he did not defend the US in some way in response to the question he would have been accused of being "weak" from the right. This is always the box democrats find themselves in.

The only problem is that when you take public stances to avoid attacks from the Republican machine, you disillusion your base. This is what happenned yesterday. I do not believe Obama really believes what he said yesterday in defending aspects of the Iraq war. I believe it was purely a political choice. It avoids attacks from the right. I just think Democrats need to find a spine. We are in a divided country and Republicans are opponents no matter what you do or say. Accept the attacks from the right and speak the truth thereby energizing and strengthening your own base and the Democratic Brand as speaking truth. The people listening and believing Republican attacks on weakness of Democrats will not or are not inclined to Vote Democratic anyhow and my opinion is that it keeps the Democratic Party from attaining the true electoral victories that polls on support of our issues show we should be obtaining.

This thinking applies to all politically inspired speechs and votes where politicians dissemble or triangulate to avoid political attacks rather than do the right thing. In particular I am thinking of Hillary and Kerry voting for "The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002" and later justifying it by two forms of untruth (1) their Votes were wrong in retrospect but they were misinformed and believed the Intelligence Reports on WMD at the time and (2) their affirmative Votes on was not an authorization for the Iraq War but just gave the President cards to play (it had the requirement that Bush come back to Congress which he ignored of course). In both cases, Hillary and Kerry and everyone who generally pays attention (I assume Senators actually pay attention to politics and policy generally) , knew that the Bush case was built on air and that the Resolution was an approval of the Iraq War. The Kerry and Hillary Votes were political calculations to avoid attacks from the right rather than support the base. Notably, neither got elected or energized the base and the guy (Obama) who was against the bad war energized the base and got elected in a landslide.

From that point, it is disappointing that Obama gave a speech that was not based on truth but based on political calculation to avoid attacks from the right and the effect is the same as shown here on DU. It avoids attacks from the right on this point but disillusions the base once again and gives no support to the Democratic Brand as truth tellers.

[DeSwiss]

94. Would you please repeat that last message......

...for the Hard of Hearing:

- K&R

[phleshdef]

97. There was nothing "inartful", "strange", "weird" or "odd" about his comments.

He was put in a position to answer for Putin's comparisons to our escapades in the Balkans and Iraq. He was pointing out the clear differences in the process and goals "we" had versus what Putin is doing in Crimea.

He was not defending, excusing or otherwise reversing his own opposition to the Iraq war. Anyone that gives his comments an honest reading can see that.

If anyone felt "stung", its due to a knee jerk reaction without giving any fair amount of thought to what he was getting at.

[Raksha]

98. +1000 K & R

[stillcool]

99. jeeze..sucks that he might

want to put the country in the best light possible. An impeachable offense if I ever saw one.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

100. noted. thank you; I see your viewpoint more clearly now.

I've read very few of the outrage posts, because to me, he did make it clear that the Iraq War was wrong. However, it is what it is--bushscums made it a reality, and you can only work with what you've got.

You have to focus on the issue at hand--talking truth to neo-cons was not the appropriate subject for that arena. I think foreign policy requires a delicate way of wording things.

[ybbor]

104. Very well said!

True, true, true.

[jeff47]

106. Sorry, no.

So I hope you can find it in your hearts to excuse us for being more that a little sickened and pissed.

Sorry, no.

The entire basis of this flame war is a lie. That Obama "defended" the war. So post after post after post after post attacking Obama based on a lie.

We are supposed to be the people who believe in reality. Yet here we are, shredding our own party because of a lie. Because some people want to be pissed.

Soon, some new edifice of bullshit will be built on a new lie, so that those same people can keep being pissed.

Fuck that.

[WillyT]

125. And You Are Quite Welcome To Believe That... And I Get To Disagree...

Such is the nature of a political discussion board.

[JDPriestly]

122. K&R.

[red dog 1]

124. K&R

[malokvale77]

126. This...

¨You have to realize that at first glance, those remarks were like taking a lit cigarette, and putting it in an open wound that never healed.¨

First glance and thorougher study, it still feels the same.

[WillyT]

127. Word !!!

[malokvale77]

129. Back atcha

[ZombieHorde]

130. I hope you make another one and

call it "My best wasn't good enough." nt

[WillyT]

143. ...---...