This centrist, non-party-member is a more reliable supporter of Dems than are some progressives.

[riqster]

Dafuq? I mean, really, Dafuq?????

Here at DU we have people who announce their intention to not support Democrats on Election Day, even admitting that they know it will help Republicans take even more control of the country. Some posters on this thread did just that: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4739751

And we have alleged progressives spewing venomous hatred towards our President. Some of them posted on, or were the subject of, this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024738811

I have to ask myself what parallel universe we are living in. I am not as liberal as some DUers, but I vote straight Dem in every fucking election, and have for decades. And even though I am not a fan of Obama, I do respect the office and support him.

Which means that I am enabling progressive change to a greater extent than a fair few progressives here and elsewhere. And that is totally fucked up.

Yes, the party is too far to the right for my tastes. And the Prexy is a flawed and imperfect man. As are many other elected Dems. But people, please, do some soul-searching and ask yourself if intentionally damaging the people and party that come closest to representing your views is a good idea?

No, it isn't a good idea. It is stupid Fuckery of the highest order. You wouldn't scream abuse at a child and sabotage his efforts to succeed and call that "support". Hell, you wouldn't do it to a dog. So what makes people think it a good practice in politics?

Come on, everybody. Divided we fall. The Democratic Party is all that stands between ourselves and a Libertarian Utopia. It needs our support, and we need it to be strong.

I am not very far out to the Left. I am not a Democratic Party member. But I am busting ass on GOTV and election integrity, and it is 100% focused on Dem victories in elections at all levels. I am here to beat down Repubs at every opportunity.

And you'd think that Progressives and Party members would be doing the same, or even more, to advance the cause. And lots are, of course. But entirely too many among us are actively working against us.

Small wonder, then, that I give short shrift to the centrist-bashers hereabouts. Because at sevens and last, I am a staunch and constant supporter of what this site stands for. And my actions match my words.

Either Get Out The Fucking Vote, or at least have the integrity to get out of the way.

(Donning my Nomex Underoos.)

[el_bryanto]

1. Blowing off steam at a forum doesn't mean they aren't also working to GOTV

While it can be frustrating to read the invictive here, people do get genuinely upset and probably need to say their piece.

[riqster]

2. Agreed. If they act on such destructive impulses, though...

Not voting, for example. Hugely damaging.

Writing invective that gets picked up by RW propagandists, also damaging.

Again, venting has its place. But we need to remember that words can become weaponized.

[el_bryanto]

3. Anything we say here can be picked up by RW propogandists.

Some forums are full of things they could quote to make us look terrible. I don't favor being quiet because my words could be used by the dishonest folk on the right.

Bryant

[riqster]

4. A fair point.

I'd then point out the potential harm that could caused right here, by demotivating Dem voters.

Sometimes people will act on the words of people they respect.

[JoePhilly]

13. I think Discouraging Democrats is part of the intent for some.

On almost every issue, the media pushes two totally opposite narratives, both of which attack Obama and the Democrats.

The first narrative is designed to anger the right. Obama and the Dems are socialists. They hate America. They are weak. They want to tax you to death. They hate Christians. So on. The goal here is to anger the ever shrinking GOP base so that what remains is energized to vote.

The second narrative is designed to discourage the left. Obama and the Dems are corporatists. They work only for the 1%. They like war. They are basically the same as Republicans. The goal here is to discourage the Democratic base and reduce the energy they feel to vote.

With a shrinking base, the GOP actively tries to block potential democrats from voting. Combine that, with a media supported effort to shrink the Democratic vote through discouragement, and the GOP suddenly has a chance to win.

I'm not saying that's the intent of all of DU's perpetually disgruntled posters. But its clear that some outlets work to feed members of the left an endless stream of discouraging perspectives hoping they'll get pushed around the internet and take hold.

So Obama's Brussel's remarks how are they being reported? Exactly as I descirbe. Obama is weak sold to anger the right, Obama thinks the Iraq war was a great idea, sold to discourage the left.

[FSogol]

19. +1 n/t

[riqster]

21. Interesting analysis. Food for thought.

Thanks!

[Katashi_itto]

26. Waffle food for thought

[JoePhilly]

36. The first time I noticed it was in 2009, on MSNBC.

But you can see it at work almost every day on MSNBC and CNN. Fox is a RW bashfest all the time.

It often goes like this ... a RW talking head gets a couple minutes to rant about how bad something Obama and the Dems did is. And then the host says "thanks" ... then turns to the LW talking head and asks "Now, we also know that the left isn't happy with this, why is that?" ... and the LW talking head goes on to attack Obama and the Dems on the same topic, but for a totally opposite reason. Both narratives placed side by side .. both explaining why Obama and the Dems, or what they are trying to do, sucks.

From there, the opposite messages make their way into the forums and comment sections on the left, and the right.

Thus, the ACA sucks because it is both Socialism, and also because its not Universal Health Care. The right gets angry, the left gets discouraged.

Obama beat McCain and Romney by about 6% each. Which means all you need is around a 3% shift to create a toss up... get a 1.5% uptick on the right, same amount of decrease on the left, and the race is a toss up.

Finally, the target of these messages isn't the far right or the far left, they are useful for spreading them, but they are not the ultimate target ... the target are the folks who lean left and lean right. These are the folks who require energy to vote.

Anger them enough, they'll vote ... discourage them enough, they'll stay home.

[roguevalley]

48. oh that any of us had that much power. I am sickened that liberals get thrashed

here. be middle of the road, op. every dem has been since 2000 and see where we are? I am an FDR dem.
I apologize to no one.

[riqster]

52. I am only bashing the Dems who don't vote or actively trash our peeps.

Criticism is to be expected and in fact encouraged. There is a large variety of Dems. But when people who call themselves "progressives" stop supporting us, or actively work against our interests, they are the people I am talking about.

And some of these folks trash-talk Truman Dems like me, sneering from their Leftier-than-thou pedestals. News flash: I'm not apologizing either. Not when I am actively working to elect every Dem I can. And especially when some of these "leftists" are admittedly working in a manner that enables Reeps to beat us.

FDR Dem, Clinton Dem, whatever one may be, we all need to stir our stumps and get to the polls at a bare minimum.

[treestar]

55. Not really response to Joe's post

but why do the liberals put up with this victimization? They can easily start another board. If it's OK to bash Democrats, why isn't it OK to bash people to the left of the party who keep bashing it? Why only one direction of bashing is to be allowed?

Republicans are the ones who should get bashed on this board, not Democrats. Yet there is a set of posters always bashing Democrats. And then they claim to be poor victims of the third way or whatever they want to call them. Why stay around to be victimized?

[n2doc]

5. I'm sure the current party leadership is much more in tune with your views

That makes it easy for you.

[sendero]

6. Exactly..

.... if I were a center-right Republican I wouldn't be that upset either.

[riqster]

7. Not really. I'm a Truman Democrat, pretty much.

Serious differences in platforms and philosophy. But it's possible to at least speak from some common reference points.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Just as insane as these outbursts are...

is answering them.

But, Parkinson's Law of Triviality is his corollary that demonstrates that in any meeting or group the topic of least importance will get the longest discussion time.

It works the same way here. Every so often one of us runs for office and asks for whatever help might be available and the request sinks like a stone, perhaps with one or two attaboys. But, mention Hillary's new hairstyle or a phrase in an Obama speech that could be interpreted two ways if you really wanted to stretch it and you're guaranteed at least a hundred replies. And then more threads spinning off.

Do not, of course, ignore the possibility that a lot of this is deliberate, possibly paid, disruption. How much? I have no idea, but they've been here before, and some have been exposed.

[KittyWampus]

39. I'd never heard of Parkinson's Law of Triviality. Just read a bit more about it. It does describe

some situations I've been in.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. If you only vote for Democrats, your 'Independent' status is an affectation. You are a

Democrat who just does not take part in the hard work and organization it takes to win elections. Either that or you actually vote for Republicans on some occasions.
If you vote only for Democrats, you are one. Pretending you are 'independent' is absurd and cuts your standing in terms of the lecturing. You exhort others to build a strong Party with which you refuse to be affiliated? How does that work, really?

[riqster]

15. I get to define myself, as do we all. I am not a party member. Thus the designation.

And as my post said, I do lot of hard work to elect Democrats. So, you missed the mark.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Hey, some folks claim they are Napolean, and they are free to make such claims.

But if you only vote for one Party you are a member of that Party. If you also take part in the work, then you are very much a Democrat. Sorry if that bothers you.
What do you think defines a Democrat? I'm a pragmatist, what you have in your mind is not knowable to me, your actions are the full definition of you for others. Your actions as reported are those of a fully committed Democrat. So if you are being honest about your actions, you are a Democrat, like it or not.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. Yep. The biggest loud mouthed Obama supporter and "independent" voter I know IRL,

... voted for bush at least once and supported the Iraq war.

I call him loud mouthed because he sent me a receipt every time he sent money to the Obama campaign. Which is fine, but where I lost it was when he sent me some internet gag pic floating around with Clinton standing in front of a "Countrywide" banner. She was obscuring part of the word so it made it look like a derogatory word for female genitalia.

Anyway, that's an aside.

I really lost it when he told me he was voting for the republican Kirk for Obama's old seat because the dem was mobbed up..

[Doctor_J]

10. Maybe torture, war, profit-based health "care", TPP, "clean coal", chained CPI are more your

cup of tea than mine. I am happy for you. For those adversely affected by those issues, who should be able to look to the Dem party for relief, I am sad. The national party has dropped the ball and is making GOTV difficult.

I, OTOH, am a party member and have been since the 70's. AS far as

The Democratic Party is all that stands between ourselves and a Libertarian Utopia

goes, we used to do a lot better at that, and I think we can again if we put our minds to it.

As to that poll you linked to, less than 10% of the respondents said that they can no longer support the current Republican-lite version of the party. The others are still on board despite the fact that the liberals receive pretty much nothing in terms of progressive initiatives from the DC Dems.

An excellent rant, based completely in fantasy.

Edit for clarity

[Katashi_itto]

12. +1000

[riqster]

18. Says a poster who knows their decision to not vote helps Repubs.

And will do it anyway, again by their own admission:

riqster
74. Not voting = electoral support for Repubs.
Because of the mathematics of American politics.

8:11 AM
Katashi_itto
76. It does work out that way.
Belgium waffles are still the better choice.
Reply
Alert
8:14 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024739751

[Katashi_itto]

24. Well, listening to your rant convinces me Belgium Waffles are a better bet.

[riqster]

29. You were saying the same thing before said rant.

So don't try to pin it on me. Own your own pro-republican choices and actions.

[Katashi_itto]

41. Lol! Your rant is still a rant

[TransitJohn]

11. Is it hard to come down off that cross?

Sheesh.

[riqster]

16. Not feeling crucified, so no.

[cali]

14. sorry, chum, not where I live.

There is a viable 3rd party in my state with members in both houses of the legislature. I have an independent U.S. Senator.

but do continue to pat yourself heartily on the back. You can be counted on for that.

[FSogol]

17. K & R. GOTV in 2014 or get out of the way. n/t

[Capt. Obvious]

22. Some straight Dem ticket votes

count more than others.

[riqster]

27. Mathematics says otherwise.

Math says more Dem votes help us win, and less Dem votes help us lose. No matter the voter's position on a left-right axis.

[Marrah_G]

23. Being scolded by a Centrist for not falling in line

Well that's new :yawn:

[quinnox]

25. Bashing progressives and a holier than thou attitude isn't very convincing

To say the least.

[riqster]

28. I am not bashing anyone who is helping us win elections.

Only those progressives who work against our winning elections. They are a minority, but a vocal and hence disruptive and damaging one.

[snooper2]

30. maybe some folks aren't aware there are other political parties out there?

It's not like the green party has a huge message board somewhere for people to rant on...or do they?

I would never go for these fringe groups but some folks are pretty far out there, maybe they are operatives


You have the Communist Party USA, (says 2000 members LOL)

The Communist Party USA (CPUSA) is a Marxist-Leninist political party in the United States,[2] and is the largest communist party in the country. Established in 1919, it has a long, complex history that is closely related to the histories of similar communist parties worldwide and the U.S. labor movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA


How about the Party for Socialism and Liberation?

GO MADURO

The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) is a Marxist-Leninist political party in the United States,[2] created as the result of a split within the ranks of the Workers World Party (WWP).[3]

The PSL has two national offices in Washington, D.C. and in San Francisco, alongside 23 local branches across the country. In 2008, Gloria La Riva and Eugene Puryear ran for President and Vice President on the first PSL ticket. In November 2011, Peta Lindsay and Yari Osorio were announced as the PSL's presidential ticket in 2012.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_for_Socialism_and_Liberation


Maybe The Modern Whig Party?

The Modern Whig Party is a United States political party whose stated intention is to be a "party for the rest of us."[1] The Modern Whig Party, founded by U.S. military veterans, describes itself as a mainstream, middle-of-the-road grassroots movement that caters to those voters who believe in various Republican causes but also believe in various other Democratic causes.[1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Whig_Party




Then we have these folks....HMMMMM.... (notice the last sentence)

Socialist Party USA

The Socialist Party USA (SPUSA) is a multi-tendency democratic-socialist party in the United States. The party states that it is the rightful continuation and successor to the tradition of the Socialist Party of America, which had lasted from 1901 to 1972.

The party is officially committed to left-wing democratic socialism. The Socialist Party USA, along with its predecessors, has received varying degrees of support when its candidates have competed against those from the Republican and Democratic parties. Some attribute this to the party having to compete with the financial dominance of the two major parties, as well as the limitations of the United States' legislatively[6][7] and judicially[8] entrenched two-party system. The Party supports third-party candidates, particularly socialists, and opposes the candidates of the two major parties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_USA

[riqster]

31. The modern Whig party? Holy snap.

That is bizarre. Thanks for the post, I had not heard of them.

[quinnox]

32. lol. Yea, let's go on a commie and socialist witch hunt at DU! They have infiltrated DU.

Its the 1950s all over again.

[snooper2]

35. Who wants to wear the mask first?

[riqster]

46. Totally off topic, but that reminds me of this old chestnut:

http://m.

Totally unrelated, but it is a good tune.

[Mnpaul]

49. Obama's FBI did go after the socialists

and the anti-war protesters. And it is a witch hunt. The claims made to get a search warrant are beyond ridiculous. They claimed that Freedom Road and the Antiwar Committee were plotting to violently overthrow the US government. They claimed that they had secret "red" cells across the country.

[treestar]

53. joining those parties and commenting on their boards

would spare some people here the terrible victimization they allege they suffer at the hands of those awful Democrats/Centrists/ThirdWayers. If the Democrats are that bad, why not join one of those parties? People keep talking about how they will vote their principles. Would that not mean voting Socialist? The Democrats are right wing beyond hope, aren't they? No different than Republicans. So why waste time with them? The Socialist party isn't going to get any bigger unless you join it.

[Demo_Chris]

33. Vote for Chained CPI, Drone murder, Free Trade, Domestic Spying, or the Repubs will win!!! nt

[hobbit709]

34. Just because I vote D doesn't mean I have to enthusiastically like it.

I'm getting tired of "Not as bad as the other guy"

[riqster]

37. Me, too.

But 8 years of Repub rule taught me that the greater of two evils is truly evil.

Sucks, but it's the reality at present. I hope someday to vote for people I can enthusiastically support.

[Trajan]

38. The 'Centrists' can blow it out their collective arses ...

I can and will criticize nominal Democrats even as I pull the lever to vote for them ...

Ain't no fucking way you are gonna silence me ...

[riqster]

40. If you are voting, you aren't the object of the post.

Voting is supporting. Good on you for doing so!

[whatchamacallit]

42. Congratulations!

[Zorra]

43. I suggest working to fix the problem, rather than blaming the victims.

Do you think it possible that when a large number of literate, intelligent, progressive, compassionate Democrats think there is something seriously wrong with the party, it might be a genuine clue that something is seriously wrong with the party?

When people criticize Democratic leaders and the Democratic party, it does not mean that people will not vote for Democrats, it simply means that they would prefer to vote for progressive Democrats whose legislative actions are not controlled by wealthy private interests in any way.

Those who never question authority will inevitably be harmed by it.

[riqster]

44. I am not addressing reasonable people such as you describe.

I specifically called out non-voters and haters.

People who help us win elections, and take positive steps to move our party back to the Left, do not fit into either category.

[Cha]

47. "I'm a ratfucking right-wing troll pretending to be a progressive. But, I'm really just here to

Last edited Sat Mar 29, 2014, 09:50 AM - Edit history (1)

cause dissension - divide and conquer - so that the Republicans will have a better chance at winning elections."

I know two out of three of those names and Yep!

[riqster]

50. Were you really such a one, you'd be a different problem.

I am concerned about actual Dem voters who either sit it out or actively work against us.

Rovian scumbuckets like the ones you are parodying are never gonna vote Dem, so they are not worth trying to reach.

So says this "worthless DLC third way centrist", anyway.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

51. How exactly are those people 'in your way'?

Are they jamming your phone calls? Constantly standing in front of you while you're trying to go door to door?

Or are they simply writing things you could ignore on a blog, but you simply can't stop yourself from wasting your time fighting with them when you could instead be phonebanking or pounding pavement?

[Insert the 'I can't come to bed, someone is wrong on the internet!' cartoon here.]

99.9999999% of the time, when I see a rant like this, the only person 'in the way' is the person writing the rant, who hasn't learned the fine art of ignoring meta.

[riqster]

54. Ignorance is not bliss.

We ignore people who cannot actually hurt our cause at little or no cost.

But if we ignore people who are hurting our cause, it can cost us a helluva lot. And it has. Like in elections past.

[Laelth]

56. You'll need a lot more straw ...

... if you want to make this straw-man convincing. I'd bet 99% of the people who post here and read here regularly vote, and I'd need to see some damning evidence (not just demoralization with bad words) in order to convince me that a significant number of people here are working against liberal interests.

-Laelth

[riqster]

60. I said "some", and provided examples.

Straw, schmaw.

Besides, 99% of the DU community (I hope it's that high) isn't enough, not against the enemy we face. We need everybody to vote. When we turn out, we win. When we sit it out, we lose. And there are those here (and once again, I spent five minutes or less finding two examples, so it's not an uncommon phenomenon) who are actively working against GOTV.

Once again, straw not required.

[BenzoDia]

57. A lot of people like to talk about being progressive. But then don't walk the walk.

It's just an identity or label to wear like anything else.

[RC]

58. We have to get past this "Democrats are monolithic" mind set by too many around here.

Monotheism is a Republican lock-step mind set
Democrats are anything but of one mind. The DLC, 3rd Way, New Democrats, Blue Dogs, Ex-Republicans "Democrats" that switch parties so they can run for office, do nothing except push and pull the Democratic Party ever farther to the Right. How does that help anything, when the party is already over Center to the Right? That magic (D) is not the answer, it is hiding the problem.



We need to do what the Republicans did. Start at the local level and run for any elected post available, from dog catcher, school board, any nonpartisan positions, where your politics are not an issue. Get known locally. Advance to the county level, or whatever the next level is. Then run for state level elected positions, using your past election wins and accomplishments. It took the Republicans over 30 years, but they elected a President that way. Then stuffed the federal agencies with their people. They are currently ham-stringing our government. Their gerrymandering is from local and state. They make and enforce election laws. They write laws keeping women and minorities down. And much much more, and there isn't a whole lot we can do about it because the have taken control from the local level to the federal level. Using this method, the have stacked the deck in their favor from the local level to every federal agency their is.
To undo what they have done we also must start at the local level and take back control. And that will take many decades also.

[riqster]

61. Agreed.

But that does not mean we shouldn't aggressively GOTV now. We can win more races if we just show up and vote.

And doing so over the long haul will get us to where you correctly say we need to be.

[99Forever]

59. Fingerpointing hogwash.

Lamebait.

[riqster]

62. It isn't hogwash if the finger is pointing at the correct target.

And I provided examples of the problem I pointed at. So I'd say that finger is doing a pretty fair job.

[99Forever]

65. You have your opinion.

That you find it necessary to insult others that don't share it, is on you. Seems a rather counterproductive way to address a "problem" to me.

Proceed.

[dawg]

63. If you want change, you can't just work to elect Democrats.

You need to:

1. Work to elect Democrats, and ...

2. Push them to actually pursue progressive policies


Do one without the other, and all you get is the staus quo. (Only with D's instead of R's)

[riqster]

64. I agree completely.

But we cannot do 2 unless we first do 1.