#rapecultureiswhen Is the Perfect Answer to Everyone Who Denies Rape Culture Exists

[redqueen]

#RapeCultureIsWhen Is the Perfect Answer to Everyone Who Denies Rape

There's nothing like calling a group of women hysterical to undermine their argument.

Caroline Kitchens, a research assistant at the right-wing think tank American Enterprise Institute, trotted out the old "feminists be crazy" trope in a scoffing TIME magazine piece that argued the prevalence of sexual assault in our society has to do with cultural norms, popularly known as "rape culture."

Though rape is certainly a serious problem, there's no evidence that it's considered a cultural norm. Twenty-first-century America does not have a rape culture; what we have is an out-of-control lobby leading the public and our educational and political leaders down the wrong path. Rape culture theory is doing little to help victims, but its power to poison the minds of young women and lead to hostile environments for innocent males is immense.

Ah yes, because the real collateral damage of sexual assault are "innocent males."

These articles always seem to start the same way. As Noam Chomsky once pointed out for Z Magazine, old media types from the institutional bodies like American Enterprise Institute tend to regurgitate the same ideas with a reliability that is equally impressive and infuriating. While assuring the public that rape is a terrible crime, writers like Caroline Kitchens and Heather McDonald of right-wing think tank The Manhattan Institute try to claim that feminists have blown this whole rape culture thing way out of proportion.

...

http://www.policymic.com/articles/86187/how-rapecultureiswhen-perfectly-dismantled-these-rape-culture-deniers?utm_source=policymicTBLR&utm_medium=main&utm_campaign=social

[Ohio Joe]

1. Yet so many still deny such a thing exists...

They consider it an affront to them personally if they admit rape culture exists and must do all they can to deny it. All it does is allow it to continue to exist.

[Squinch]

2. It's so exhausting.

Redqueen, you are always fighting the good fight.

It matters.

[Zorra]

3. K&R nt

[Warpy]

4. The post was alerted on and was 6-0 to leave it.

More than one person has come back to hit "rec."

[cyberswede]

5. Who the fuck would alert on this?

Good thing it was 6-0.

[one_voice]

7. Results..

#rapecultureiswhen Is the Perfect Answer to Everyone Who Denies Rape Culture Exists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024751657

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This mono culture is getting very old. The problem is not DU!
Most of the DU "rape culture" is in the heads of the HoF, where this post should be.
DU members got the message a long time ago and we should not be subject to this constant rape culture mentality, as if DU'ers were somehow responsible. Enough already.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 29, 2014, 06:56 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is no where in the ball park of needing to be hidden. I suggest you use the trash a thread feature. Leave.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I will now go and recommend it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I understand that the alerter may be burnt out on the "gender wars" nonsense here at DU, but the RQ post alerted upon is perfectly reasonable -- alerting on it was not.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree that this is getting tiresome and with everything the alerter says, but I don't agree this needs to be hidden. Better just ignore.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Women don't like being raped. Fancy that.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was a juror.

[cyberswede]

10. Juror 6 rocks!

[In_The_Wind]

74. Yes, indeed!

to juror #6!

[CSStrowbridge]

103. I agree...

I agree. In fact, I would go further than Juror 6 and say the people who want to hide a thread like this are part of the problem. Telling women to stop talking about rape and rape culture gives rapists cover for what they do.

[seabeyond]

106. "Telling women to stop talking about rape and rape culture gives rapists cover" yes. and we have

our newbies in this thread doing exactly that. you state it well. i have not been nearly so clear with him, as your statement. thank you

[laundry_queen]

182. Absolutely! nt

[Squinch]

16. Rape culture threads seem to make the alerter feel guilt. As Juror 6 said, "Fancy that."

[BainsBane]

34. No women's issues in public

Take to HOF where such issues belong, he says. The alerter apparently things GD is for men only and ignores the fact that men too are raped. He couldn't trash the threat because the outrage is that we think we have a right to discuss issues that concern us and not him. That alert shows the insidious nature of sexism. People like that consider our lives so insignificant that we can't discuss a crime that affects twenty-five percent of us in public. That folks is rape culture. If the alerter had gotten the message "a long time ago," he wouldn't have alerted on this thread.

[Ohio Joe]

6. I am not one bit surprised...

I hope the Admins take a look at who it was that alerted.

[BainsBane]

35. Agreed

[mopinko]

79. clearest evidence of misogyny you gonna get around here.

get the ban hammer skinner.

[Sheldon Cooper]

8. Can you post the jury results?

I really, REALLY, want to see the alerter's comments.

[Zorra]

12. Rape culture is when an OP like this gets alerted on at a progressive website. nt

[Squinch]

18. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yep

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. you know it.

[Ms. Toad]

48. For the win. n/t

[CrispyQ]

117. Spot on.

Regarding the OP, I cannot believe that FB post was allowed to stand. Unfuckingbelievable.

[Hippo_Tron]

118. On a website this big, there are inevitably trolls, anyone can alert...

I think the 6-0 jury result speaks highly of the vast majority of users here in this regard.

[sheshe2]

14. This thread was alerted on!

Last edited Sun Mar 30, 2014, 08:01 AM - Edit history (1)

What the hell broke DU that this would be said here...

This mono culture is getting very old. The problem is not DU!
Most of the DU "rape culture" is in the heads of the HoF, where this post should be.
DU members got the message a long time ago and we should not be subject to this constant rape culture mentality, as if DU'ers were somehow responsible. Enough already.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024751657#post7

It's getting old?! Well excuse us.

[Squinch]

20. Because, I guess, rape culture is just a mentality.

Their delicate minds can't be exposed to THREADS about it.

[sheshe2]

22. To bad!

They won't stop hearing about it! To hell with their delicate minds.

Whoever alerted on this should be ashamed, yet they are not!

Thank you Squinch. I am banging my head too.

[calimary]

32. And of course, our bodies have a way of shutting-that-whole-thing-down anyway,

n'est-ce pas?

[sheshe2]

43. Oui.

Oh yes, we are extraordinary strong women and that is a fact.

Yet the mind boggling statement from Todd Akin just blows your mind. Of all the stupid, uneducated, warped and twisted views of “legitimate rape” and our bodies can shut that whole thing down! We can shut down a pregnancy with our minds and our bodies. Who knew, thanks for letting us know Todd.

So sorry, that this post gave the person that alerted the vapors. Our voice can't be heard? You want us to shut the hell up!? Oh no, you got that wrong, we will be heard again and again. They need to get over themselves!

Thanks calimary, yup the alert wanted to make me puke too.

[cui bono]

150. If this OP was a REAL hide-worthy OP

the alerter's mind would have had a way of shutting the whole thing down.

[Sheldon Cooper]

21. How utterly sad and pathetic.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[sheshe2]

25. Why we need to keep talking about ‘rape culture’

There’s no arguing that America has a rape problem: Someone is sexually assaulted in the United States every two minutes. But the problem extends beyond the crimes themselves to the culture that allows rape to thrive.

We live in a country where a Texas defense lawyer called an 11-year-old gang-rape victim a “spider” luring men into her web. Where instead of helping a rape victim, high school students in Steubenville, Ohio, joked about the assault and took pictures. As feminist Thomas MacAulay Millar wrote, “It takes one rapist to commit a rape, but it takes a village to create an environment where it happens over and over and over.”

Which is why it’s so disappointing that the country’s largest anti-sexual-violence organization, RAINN, recently advised a White House task force that efforts to curb rape on college campuses should move away from the “unfortunate trend towards blaming ‘rape culture,’?” because “rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.”

RAINN President Scott Berkowitz told me that the memo to the White House Task Force to Protect Students From Sexual Assault wasn’t meant as a thorough critique of sexual violence in America. He agreed there are systemic issues: from untested rape kits to justice system treatment of survivors. But he stood by the passage about rape culture, arguing that the term “muddies” the conversation about how to help survivors and risks alienating allies. “Many people interpret it — men in particular — as accusatory,” he said. “We need to encourage their good instincts rather than pointing a finger.”

Read More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-we-need-to-keep-talking-about-rape-culture/2014/03/28/58acfec4-b5bf-11e3-8cb6-284052554d74_story.html

Thank you Sheldon, it does make you wonder. It makes you cry.

[Squinch]

27. That's just another way of saying, "We don't want to annoy the men by being too vocal

about our problems." We've gone through the wormhole back to the 50's.

Makes it seem accusatory? Well, it is. Here's why: because there are so many out there fostering the RAPE CULTURE. Including assholes who alert on threads like this.

[sheshe2]

38. Yes, Squinch.

The mentality of "move along, nothing to see here" is strong!

I hope the alerter is reading all of this!

[blackspade]

31. The RAINN statement is rank bullshit:

Which is why it’s so disappointing that the country’s largest anti-sexual-violence organization, RAINN, recently advised a White House task force that efforts to curb rape on college campuses should move away from the “unfortunate trend towards blaming ‘rape culture,’?” because “rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.”

RAINN President Scott Berkowitz told me that the memo to the White House Task Force to Protect Students From Sexual Assault wasn’t meant as a thorough critique of sexual violence in America. He agreed there are systemic issues: from untested rape kits to justice system treatment of survivors. But he stood by the passage about rape culture, arguing that the term “muddies” the conversation about how to help survivors and risks alienating allies. “Many people interpret it — men in particular — as accusatory,” he said. “We need to encourage their good instincts rather than pointing a finger.”

Rape is a result of cultural factors. To say otherwise means that you are full of shit.

[sheshe2]

33. Are you saying that I am full of bullshit?

Or RAINN's statement?

I assume you mean RAINN.

[blackspade]

41. Definitely not you!

I clarified my response. Sorry for the confusion!

[sheshe2]

54. Thank you blackspade.

That is what I believed you said, yet it was unclear.

Thanks for the edit.

Peace, sheshe~

[CrispyQ]

121. Is he deliberately not getting it?

“Many people interpret it — men in particular — as accusatory,” he said. “We need to encourage their good instincts rather than pointing a finger.”

Exactly! And how do you do that? Through culture you frickin' moran!

[AdHocSolver]

51. From reading the posts in this thread and others, there seems to be a striking similarity between...

...the "rape culture" mentality and the "vulture capitalist" mentality.

In both cases, a perpetrator exploits a situation to take advantage of a victim with no regard for the damage they do to the victim.

The perpetrator then blames the victim for the attack in the sense that the victim was "asking to be victimized" or the attack wouldn't have been successful.

In the case of the skilled factory worker whose job is outsourced to China after his employer's factory is bought by a vulture capitalist and the factory closed, the factory worker is blamed for engaging in the "wrong" kind of work or not having the right kind of skills. To add insult to injury, the now unemployed worker is told to go back to school and learn a new skill to become "employable" in the "new" economy.

Another example is the banking industry that swindled customers out of their homes, and when the economy started to collapse, the government came in and bailed out the banks which committed the fraud, rather than help the home owners who were swindled.

[blackspade]

148. Good observations

It's not only a culture of rape, but a culture of exploitation.

[zazen]

203. dingdingdingding!! we have a winner: That's EXACTLY the connection

Of course, each issue is important in its own right, but it really help if some of the left wing resisters of feminist discussions of sexual violence could grasp the similarity in power dynamics, and that there is much to be gained by adapting activist strategies in each arena to the other.

I was thrilled to see in an interview with--was it Warren Buffett's son?--the discussion of using strategies from second wave feminism to combat capitalism.

I was soooo proud. I mean, our movement has become a model for others--a source of wisdom and strength in dealing with another interrelated blight on our planet. Basically the point was that as with male dominance, we don't just say, OK, today we're going to take down patriarchy.

No, the battles are fought in micro arenas every hour in every life and every situation in different ways. One answer, it was argued, to dealing with vulture capitalism isn't "Marxism" or another great theory (though perhaps democratic cooperatism may emerge as a more coherent alternative), but in all the daily ways we can resist it.

I wish I could find the citation.

Anyway, great connection AdHocSolver. Perhaps you/we should start on OP on this, if I can find that citation.

[redqueen]

204. I hope you can find it.

I also hope I'll be able to resist the temptation to post something like: 'Nobody here is a venture capitalist! Why are you posting this? Are you accusing someone here of being a venture capitalist? Why does this need to be posted here?!!'

[zazen]

209. BWAH! or, I know you were severely traumatized years ago by a series of capitalist abuses,

and I feel awful that you went through your job being outsourced and your house being fraudulently foreclosed upon, but do you have to bring that into every conversation?!

[zazen]

211. here it is: from Counterpunch: Bob Jensen's interview re book "Getting Past Capitalism"

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/04/beyond-capitalism/

FEBRUARY 04, 2014
An Interview With Cynthia Kaufman
Beyond Capitalism
by ROBERT JENSEN

"Such a volume is Cynthia Kaufman’s Getting Past Capitalism: History, Vision, Hope, which expresses in clear, concise language thoughts that likely have been bumping around in the minds of many of us who reject capitalism. The book is particularly powerful because of its modesty; Kaufman promises no new grand theory and instead offers insights that we all can use in our daily lives.

...
Robert Jensen: Critiques of capitalism have been around since the beginning of capitalism. Is there anything distinctive about this moment? Mainstream society continues to operate as if “there is no alternative” to capitalism, but at the same time, the failures of capitalism are more evident than ever.

RJ: How would you characterize the struggle against capitalism? You point out there is no “command center” to target. How should we think about this struggle?

CK: The main argument of the book is that capitalism is constituted by a varied of different practices, and so challenging capitalism needs to be about a variety of struggles. I draw on the important work of J.K. Gibson-Graham, who argues that we should model anti-capitalist struggle on feminist struggles. Second-wave feminists didn’t look for an overthrow of patriarchy. Instead, they analyzed what they were up against and fought it in all of its varied manifestations.

One of the problems with traditional anti-capitalist thought is that it defines capitalism as a totality, which encourages us to imagine another totality, socialism, which we can try to replace it with. This totalizing perspective has colonized the imagination of anti-capitalism and left us waiting for a revolution we can never have."


I'm on Jensen's listserv so I may have read it there and not posted at DU. We probably should start a separate thread referencing it. I'd like to look up Gibson-Graham's work.

[BainsBane]

36. You know what's really old?

RAPE

[Lunacee_2013]

61. It is getting old,

but we are not the ones who started it nor are we the ones who are keeping it rolling. The rapists and their apologists are. If they don't wanna hear women raise hell about this, or anything about white privilege, maybe they should get out and help us stop it!

[redqueen]

45. Of course it was.

Fortunate result. Glad they'll be unable to alert on any other posts about rape culture or any other subject for a day.

[JI7]

46. i have an idea of who might have alerted it

probably one of those who is always complaining about HOF in almost any thread.

[redqueen]

49. Interesting that they haven't posted in the thread. nt

[BainsBane]

149. It's probably the same one who sent the SOP alert

[redqueen]

153. An SOP alert, too?

Yeah, no, I'm not surprised.

[seabeyond]

164. SOP alert. why>?????? lol. womens issue only belongs in a group? no fuggin way. lol. nt

[malthaussen]

91. As already noted by several others...

... kind of proves the OP's point, doesn't it?

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

97. yup. nt

[progressoid]

9. Blurred lines.

Grrrr.

I actually saw Mothers and daughters gleefully dancing to that song a last month. At a valentines event.

[CrispyQ]

123. Being completely out of touch, I looked up the lyrics to the song.

Mothers & daughters dancing to that shit.

[redqueen]

126. In fairness, it is *very* catchy.

But yes, we have to stop accepting these reinforcements of rape culture uncritically.

It is good to know the song was banned at several college campuses.

[progressoid]

171. It is. But I prefer Marvin Gaye for that funk.

[progressoid]

172. It was a cringe-worthy moment.

[niyad]

11. k and r--people ask why I don't do facebook--that pic and the fact that it was not removed is

all the answer I will give.

[toby jo]

17. Pic blew my mind. And it's OK? Jesus fucking christ.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. Pictures and sparkly images just like it have been posted in The DU Lounge

and were voted to stay. Because - Lounge.

[Soylent Brice]

13. K&R

[sheshe2]

15. K&R!

[chervilant]

19. k&r to view later

Since my phone won't download the entire OP...

[seveneyes]

23. Rape culture exists when you allow a rapist to go free

Once a rapist is convicted, they should never get the chance to do it again in an open society.

[mbperrin]

113. Doesn't mean it's not, does it?

Truth is, millions of rape kits of evidence are never processed, because the society we live in places no value on women. We might find the men who actually committed those rapes if we processed those kits, and good lord, some of them might be influential community members or people with money!

So, we give them a pass without even looking to see if a crime has been committed.

That is a rape culture, where rape is invisible and undiscussable. Yes, the one we live in.

[seabeyond]

120. wow. hey woman... meldramatic. we have more rigths than anywhere else. STFU....

what you are "allowed" and on and on and on

it is always damn nice to have some man come along and tell us women we should be appreciative we have what we do

and you are into evo psych, well helll. no surprise there.

[mbperrin]

122. No value.

We don't even process the rape kits. How's that for value?

We've had our first black President of the US, but no woman yet.

There are 81 women in the House of Representatives and 20 women in the Senate, or about 19%, even though women are 50%+ of the population.

Women in equivalent occupations make about 77% of the wages that men make in those same occupations, holding constant time on job, education, and other qualifications.

Women currently hold 4.4 percent of Fortune 500 CEO roles.

So no, we don't value women, and there were no happy darkies singing the praises of Ol' Massa before the Civil War, either, although it gave great comfort to the oppressors to think so. Still does.

[seabeyond]

127. cause we have menstrual cycles and get all emotional. shruggin, .... evo psych. lol. nt

[KitSileya]

138. You seem awful naive.

A 400 000 back log on rape kits in the US and we can't draw any conclusions?

Democratically elected positions might not be supposed to be "gender representative"?

Yes, awfully naive, or misogynistic. Pick the one that suit you.

[KitSileya]

143. Yes it is naive,

because a large part of the population have hindrances on their way to becoming candidates. Have you heard the old saw about how a woman must work twice as hard to seem half as competent as a man? It is true, and if that woman is a person of color, or LGBT, or disabled, that twice goes up exponentially.

Women who demand higher wages in negotiation is penalized for being so forward. You think that same mechanism isn't at work when it comes to leadership positions, including political candidacies? If your answer is no, you are naive. It has nothing to do with women wanting other things, it has to do with girls and women being taught that they shouldn't want leadership roles. Girls learn it in the playground, through the difference in how their taking charge and boys' taking charge is seen by the adults (hint: most often, little girls are "bossy" if they try to take charge. Boys are just doing what comes "naturally".)

When it comes to rape culture, you don't think that rape culture also has an impact on women's lives? Not taking that evening shift because you would have to lock up the store on your own and then walk to your car in the dark. Not socializing with the male bosses because you are not invited - they don't want to have to curtail their rape jokes. 1/6-1/3 women depending on what group you belong to having to overcome rape/assault trauma in addition to working your way up to the top, and always afraid that it might be revealed...because you know that there will be people who will think it is your own fault, or that it makes you fair game, or that it makes you too damaged for that leadership position if they knew.

Yes, I think your opinions are naive.

[mbperrin]

156. If you cannot see that aspirations are largely created by the society

and rules that surround us, if you cannot understand the idea of a social construct, then you need to take any liberal arts course at a decent university - whether literature, psych, history, or philosophy, any of these could help.

"THAT" paranoid? Can you put that on a number scale for me, say 1-100? And then suggest the appropriate paranoia number? Thanks.

[mbperrin]

155. Who said they should be gender exclusive? They clearly are, since

with literally millions of people of all genders in the work and government-place, you'd expect a rather random result, and yet, you have tiny numbers of women in both areas. Bizarrely, we task women with raising the children, and so many of these ideas come from maternal caregivers who are contributing to their own oppression, much like Uncle Toms of old.

Nothing random about it - the good old boys protect their own at all times and at all costs.

I don't believe in military conscription, nor war, nor a military. I don't believe in going around the world killing strangers for the benefit of the money machine, so no draft, no wars, and no military for me, please.

See what you did with the kindergarten teachers? I did. You must feel that male teachers are pedophiles and should not be around children of that age. Please don't say you didn't say that - you did, so now you will have to own it.

That blurt is just another confirmation of the anti-woman, pro-rape society we swim in. Ask a fish how he likes the rain. Won't know what you're talking about, because they're wet all the time. Same here.

[seabeyond]

165. for now. good to see. nt

[Texasgal]

24. amazing the people

that think this is Okay. Bleh!

[justhanginon]

26. K & R Those tweets are a sad commentary

on where we are on this subject. It is a problem and it is not going to go away by ignoring it. It's not a comfortable subject nor should it be. To me it is disgusting that in this day and age that it even has to be discussed but if there is ever to be a solution it must be kept in the public eye.

[calimary]

40. Welcome to DU, justhanginon!

Glad you're here. And the solution is definitely NOT to just put it on ignore - because maybe "it happens to other people" or "she deserved it" (I mean, did you see what she was wearing????) Nope. It needs to be front 'n' center. And it needs to be in people's faces. And a huge oozing pox on every todd akin and other assorted creeps who have their heads up their asses about it, or female creeps like sarah palin who think it's totally reasonable to make women pay for rape kits - because as everyone knows, it's FAR more important to save a coupla bucks rather than be so doggone focused on that stupid ridiculous waste-of-time empathy business.

[justhanginon]

215. Thanks for the kind welcome.

I remember to my amazement that todd akin still got 37% of the vote. One of those, "you've got to be kidding" moments. You sometimes wonder what planet some of these people live on.
Another problem you mentioned was the rape kits. It shocked me to find out how many were in storage and never been utilized. I don't know what the nationwide total would be but it must be staggering. That is just inexcusable. That is saying the crime against your person simply does not count. That just cannot continue. I would hope we are better than that as a country and can fix this.

[calimary]

50. But we're going backwards these days, dontchaknow.

That's "the thing" now, in republi-CON-world!

[niyad]

28. rapecultureiswhen people deny, in the fact of evidence, that it exists, because to admit it would

be to upset their oh-so-pure and delicate hearts and minds.

[Aerows]

29. Do you know which culture thinks

that women entice men into bad behavior?

A culture that believes good girls don't drink?

A culture that believes that if a girl drinks, she is "open season"?

A culture that believes if a woman dresses inappropriately she is asking for it?

A culture that believes that if a woman doesn't have appropriate male escort, she is a fallen woman?

Oh ... just in case you thought you were safe ...

A culture that even young men are groped if they are looking "too licentious"?

If you guessed the Middle East, you are absolutely right. A good looking youthful man isn't safe there, either.

And you think this isn't a problem?

Now, which do you apply to women in the US, and exactly how tight are your jeans, sir?

[raccoon]

73. "A culture that believes that if a girl drinks, she is "open season"? " IME, many Americans believe

that, too.

[redqueen]

112. You are of course correct.

Hell we even had a DUer state they thought as much, and that they were in doubt as to whether raping a severely inebreiated woman was even considered rape.

[blackspade]

30. K&R!

[BainsBane]

42. Kick

[hrmjustin]

44. K&R!

[zappaman]

47. I rarely agree with you

But this is an amazing and powerful post.
A big kick and honest rec!

[riqster]

52. Kick and rec.

Thank you for this post.

[Heidi]

53. Kick, kick, kick!!!

[davidn3600]

55. So...what's your solution to this so-called "rape culture?"

Change our justice system so that men are guilty until proven innocent? Get rid of the first amendment? Ban pornography? Make it illegal to put 3 women in bikinis on the cover of sports magazines?

[Heidi]

58. No one here is suggesting any such measures. (nt)

[davidn3600]

62. It doesnt seem anyone is suggesting any measures at all

Oh...other than the one where "why don't men just stop raping women?"

If only every crime can be solved so easily...

Why don't people just stop shooting each other with guns? Why don't people just stop robbing each other? Why don't our congressmen just stop taking kickbacks?

[davidn3600]

66. I don't alert posts unless they are overly vile...not my style

The answer is no.

[shaayecanaan]

72. Increased surveillance in public areas

and private areas as well. I think that any parents that abuse their children as well as husbands that have mistrtaed their wives should be required to submit to video surveillance in the home.

Chemical castration for repeat sex offenders

Substantially increase alcohol excise

and I do think education is important, particularly for young boys.

Empirically, I am not convinced that rape jokes by comedians (and the like) do anything to increase the prevalence of rape. It is a bit like arguing that jokes about murder increase the rate of murder. The earlier argument was that pornography caused rape. There really wasn't any empirical evidence for that either.

There is actually a very strong sense of opprobrium attached to rape. If faced with the question: "what would you rather be, an axe murderer or a rapist?" something like 96% of people will choose to be an axe murderer. Even fictional serial killers like Hannibal Lecter studiously refrain from rape, lest they lose their Byronic anti-heroic appeal. The cult of the serial killer is a very real thing (although there is no indication that it causes serial killing). No one sympathises with a serial rapist.

"Rape culture" is essentially an attempt to expand the breadth of that opprobrium beyond the criminal act itself, and to establish that we are all socially responsible for the prevalence of rape. Empirical issues aside, I am not sure that it is a smart move. The more behavior you include in the moral category of rape, the more you dilute the impact of the term itself.

[WCLinolVir]

105. Rape vs murder is like apples to oranges.

Not an appropriate comparison. At all. Murder happens for various reasons, some unintentional. Funny that in your solutions at no point do we task society to educate men/boys about how to stop/prevent rape. Men to take responsibility for rape and violence against women.
It is obvious to me that you have not been raped.
Your statistics show how in denial men are about this issue as the majority of men in surveys have admitted to forced sex. As for serial rapists we somehow focus on the sensational abductions/invasions that usually are not just limited to rape. We somehow don't include the creeps at college who are known to have raped three women. Most rapists have raped more than once.
As for your statement about diluting the impact by addressing the culture that promotes stereotypes/myths about rape, you must be projecting. That's why we call it rape culture and not rape.

[seabeyond]

107. different studies, 38-64% of college student males said they would rape if the KNEW they could

get away with it.

15%? describe an experience that was rape, as long as it was not called rape.

i agree. educate the boys. be a parent. set an example fathers. mothers, do not reinforce the misogyny.

[shaayecanaan]

167. More like comparing green apples with red apples...

Its clear that you've watched a lot of CSI. TV dramas aside, most murders are impulsive crimes without a great deal of twists and turns.

Most rapes and most murders are committed by predominantly young men. There is a strong correlation between drug use and both crimes, particularly the use of alcohol. There is a strong association also with particular types of mental illness, aggression and poor impulse control.

Marshall and Barbaree's study of rapists demonstrated that substantial numbers of rapists have acquired brain injuries and that critically, many such sex offenders have abnormalities in the vicinity of the temporal horn, a part of the brain that is believed to be critical for mediating both sexual and violent impulses.

I doubt that a lot of rapists are even going to hear about this twitter campaign, which is sort of the point. The campaign isn't meant to change the behavior of rapists. Its essentially another ribbon wearing masturbation session by pious white liberals who want to proclaim to the world just how pious and liberal they are.

I did mention education by the way. But I guess most of your spiel was prefabricated anyway.

[WCLinolVir]

197. WTF?? Prefabricated? Projection maybe?

Last edited Mon Mar 31, 2014, 11:41 PM - Edit history (1)

No actually I don't watch TV. Nice try to invalidate. Poor but what you seem to be working with is rather slim.
As for murders they run the spectrum. Maybe you don't understand that I refer to all murders, including unintentional, premeditated, serial, defense shootings, etc..
I am going to guess that "acquired brain injuries" includes bio-chemical as well as actual physical trauma. And the link between brain abnormalities and violence is nothing new.
Statistically speaking the average age of a rapist is 31. 75% of rapes are planned.
I would go on but I think the crux of your post is this-

"another ribbon wearing masturbation session by pious white liberals who want to proclaim to the world just how pious and liberal they are."
And somehow that's what really prompted you to write. Are you sure you don't want to add women or feminists to that rant?
And lastly-"The campaign isn't meant to change the behavior of rapists." Yeah-most are recidivists who are very hard to treat or didn't you know that? Not our responsibility.

[seabeyond]

206. +1. nt

[davidn3600]

168. All rape is considered evil but not all rape is considered equally evil

I'm sorry but the reality is that our society does not view the world in black and white. Our justice system does not view the world in black and white. Our system takes into account other things like premeditation, motivation, the situation, etc...

Say you have a blanket law that says anyone convicted of rape automatically gets 30 years in prison. Now you have a guy who jumps out of the bushes with a knife and totally and brutally rapes this woman in a very violent manner. Most people would agree this man needs to be put away for a very long time. Throw him in prison for 30 years. "He's an animal," people will say.
But say you have another situation where a young man and a young woman have too much to drink and they start making out and she starts yelling no and he forces himself on her. And the next day he's sorry. Is that rape? Yes. Should the man go to jail. Yes. Should he go to jail for 30 years like the other guy? Many people (including judges and prosecutors) might not think so. Why? Because society and the system doesn't view that rape equally as bad as the other rape scenario.

And it's the same with every other crime. Murder has varying degrees despite the fact a person has been killed. It's a horrible fact someone has been killed and murdered. But as a society we recognize the difference between a cold-blooded act and a murder that is a "crime of passion" for example. There is a difference in how that murder occurred. Should both murders be punished? Absolutely. That guy that did the crime of passion will spend time in prison...but he'll get out eventually. The man that did the cold-blooded killing may end up executed. Society recognizes a difference.

Feminists will be fighting a losing battle if they have a problem with this. Because our system and our society are not organized and designed to treat crimes in absolute black and white terms with no gray areas. Now maybe we need to change certain things about the system. Maybe college football players are not being punished enough when they rape a woman. Im certainly not closed off to having discussions about that kind of thing. Maybe we need to change the sentencing guidelines a bit. But there is no cultural conspiracy by the system to support or allow for rape.

[nomorenomore08]

186. You seem to be talking to yourself. When has anyone else on this thread mentioned sentencing?

For the record, I more or less agree with your basic premise - hence why there are degrees of sexual assault, much like degrees of homicide, under the law. The real problem is that something like less than 5% of rapists ever do serious jail time.

[davidn3600]

187. I must have misunderstood what the other poster was getting at...

I got the sense they were suggesting that rape culture is people having a narrow definition of rape and that other "forced sex" situations are not considered rape by those people.

[nomorenomore08]

189. Some people do have an overly narrow definition. Rape need not involve physical force.

Of course, rape absent physical force tends to be difficult to prove, but that doesn't mean victims should be knee-jerk disbelieved the way they frequently are.

[WCLinolVir]

199. Well I go by what the end result is.

Because really, that is where the proof is. And denial is a tough nut to crack.
The brain likes denial, keeps it "safe".

"Feminists will be fighting a losing battle if they have a problem with this."
A problem with what? Premeditated murder vs
manslaughter?

"Many people (including judges and prosecutors) might not think so. Why? Because society and the system doesn't view that rape equally as bad as the other rape scenario. " Yet both are devastating. Yeah we've always allowed rapists to blame alcohol, quit yer bitchin. And we've always done it that way. What a great excuse.
By the way 75% of rapes are premeditated. And they often plan on using alcohol.
This post says so much about you.

[Squinch]

77. I'd discuss this with you, as I sincerely tried to once before, but I am pretty sure you will

come back with an answer like "But what about Elizabeth Hasselback?????1??"

As you did before.

[redqueen]

114. +1

[Squinch]

76. Really, you are so dependable in your inanity.

[Ms. Toad]

80. For starters,

You might go spent some time with #rapecultureiswhen on twitter, and pretend for a half hour or so that it is a serious matter instead of treating it as a joke. Use your ears (eyes) instead of your mouth (keyboard) and really listen to the people this culture impacts most directly, and then ask yourself what you can do - personally - to make a difference.

I'll bet if you do that you can come up with something far more productive than the snark you have offered here. Like - for example - it wouldn't be much of a stretch, in response to the public schools tweet, for you to imagine going to your next local school board meeting and finding out if that is true there, and - if so - working to encourage them to include a discussion of consent in an appropriate place in the curriculum.

ETA: Here is another good place to start listening, and asking what you can do to help make a positive change.

[nomorenomore08]

83. Besides the fact that no sane person would suggest them, none of those would stop rape anyway.

How do we get people to treat each other - especially those "different" from them - with more kindness and empathy? I honestly don't know.

[etherealtruth]

84. I love it when people post to self identify like this ...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

93. me too.

for various different reasons ... some can be educated ... others, not so much.

[etherealtruth]

95. Exactly

Some posts (and by extension, posters) scream: "don't waste your time with me!"

[mbperrin]

115. Here's a starting point:

1. Process every rape kit already taken and being ignored by the millions and prosecute every one of the offenders, and register each convict as a sex offender for life.

2. Assign in-school punishment to every male student who walks down the hallways with his hands over a girl's breasts, his crotch pressed into her body, his arm firmly around her neck. This is a major problem in the large urban school I teach in, and I call out each and every offender between classes. Unfortunately, it's not considered a punishable offense, so I try to make it a teachable moment.

3. Teach women that unwelcome contact is rape, period, and teach them to take action - to loudly object at the moment, to file charges, to get help from bystanders, to in every way signal that this bad behavior will not be tolerated, and to get away from these offenders as soon as possible and permanently.

Now there's a start.

[CrispyQ]

130. We could start by requiring all colleges to require a mandatory seminar on consent

to all students at the beginning of every year. Young men on college campuses around this country chant, "No means yes & yes means anal" & they think it's funny. Rape culture is when a woman's consent is a joking matter.

[seabeyond]

131. but that is focusing rape too much on the boys/men and hurts their feelers. nt

[davidn3600]

161. Not hurting anyone's feelings, it's just not going to reach men who are capable of such acts

That's not going to stop someone to have seminars.

You really think having seminars and "don't be that guy" posters will stop someone who already hates women and/or is capable of rape?

I mean that's as stupid as me leaving my door unlocked (since locking it would put responsibility on the victim, correct?) and putting up a sign saying, "Don't be that guy that robs my house." Do you think that's going to work?

Most men won't even pay any attention in such a seminar...they will pull out their iPhone and start texting their friends.

[seabeyond]

166. i have actually taken the time to explain it to you, in all respect, experience, and know.

you continue to ignore it and repeatedly ask this question. i am simply not gonna waste my time with you any more david. it is too obvious to me, your purpose it to derail, not actually have a reasonable exchange.

[CrispyQ]

212. Someone who thinks education is a waste of time is a waste of time. -nt

[BainsBane]

140. This is a good start

http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture#

[CrispyQ]

162. That was an excellent article.

There was a link to a Tumbler page that had a picture of a button:

If you'd tell your daughter about safety, then tell your son about consent.

[NCTraveler]

198. "so-called "rape culture?""

Nice, as is the rest of your post. Where did you get any of it from? Your post, along with the op, really shows how far women have to go. Disgusting.

[redqueen]

201. There's been a lot of that posted here lately.

This thread seems to have struck a nerve for some.

[JackRiddler]

56. Thank you.

[Out of Time Man]

57. Kicked...

...and Recommended!

[Lunacee_2013]

59. K&R

Keep your heads up and keep fighting, girls/women. Don't let them beat you down, you have done nothing wrong, but they did and they know. One day the light will shine again and you'll know that you were right all along and they are nothing!

[DeSwiss]

63. K&R

[cali]

64. thank you so much. I don't know what to say beyond that.

[In_The_Wind]

70. K & R

[Shankapotomus]

71. If you want sex so much

that you need to rape someone, sex is way too high on your priorities list. Drop it down a few notches.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

81. wow. So, are you saying that you think rape is sex? are you being ironic? are you giving us another

example of rape culture ... or what exactly?

[Shankapotomus]

87. Well, you're right

Rape is more about power than sex. Sex can be just a component or foil.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

92. No, Sorry. Rape is ALL about power and NOTHING about sex. Please, educate yourself. Thanks.

[Shankapotomus]

96. Sorry

Yes, rape is not sex.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

98. ^

[tea and oranges]

141. The back of my heels have road rash

from being dragged back to the 1950's, but for the very life of me I don't understand how a criminal act of violence that involves reproductive body parts can be NOTHING about sex.

Sex has many aspects; violence is one of them. Power has many aspects, violent sex is one of them.

In the past I believed that rape was allowed to exist in the shadows to keep women in control. Well, actually I still believe that, except for the part about shadows. There's nothing in the shadows about posting a video of your own criminal act of violence against women on youtube.

To original post: Very shockingly horrific that FB post.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

142. That you equate sex with the reproductive system is very telling. Peace.

[tea and oranges]

144. Meaning What? In the Context of Violence? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

145. for you, a song:

[nomorenomore08]

85. Nothing to do with being horny. If it were, then rape would be even more common than it (sadly) is.

At most, you might say that one's libido combined with a lack of regard for others, might lead one to commit sexual assault. But even then the act is not primarily about "getting laid" per se.

[Shankapotomus]

88. I know

It's primarily about power.

[Ms. Toad]

86. That is not, by and large, why people rape.

Rape is primarily a way of asserting anger, power, and dominance - rapists are, by and large, people who get a sexual high from being bullies.

[Shankapotomus]

89. Yes

Sex is just a component for expressing that anger/power.

[redqueen]

124. Thanks for your evolving views on this subject.

I just wanted to add my two cents, which you obviously don't need but here goes anyway: We can assume most people enjoy sex, and many want it quite intently, at least at some point in their lives. Most don't feel it is something they're entitled to, however.

It is those people, the ones who feel it is owed to them and they have the right to take it no matter what the other person wants or thinks or feels, who become rapists. It is that sense of entitlement that shows their belief that they are the dominant person and the other person is subordinate to them. If they think of them as a person at all, that is. Sexual objectification is ubiquitous.

Also, just wanted to add that the phrase "that you need to rape someone" is particularly noxious. No one, EVER, "needs" to rape anyone.

[Shankapotomus]

214. Many here are so vocal and active

because they not only care but they or family have suffered under the shadow of rape. Far be it from me to not listen or evolve the descriptions I use. I will always gladly and willingly accept correction, especially from those who have been marked by and lived through it. I just hope it's understood there was never any confusion in my mind about the ultimate difference. That is crystal clear to me.

As for the last part, I agree. To speculate what is inside the head of a rapist and describe what's there is going to come out sounding noxious because they are monstrous in their personality and behavior. Should it not sound noxious?

This is such a heavy subject to venture into for me. I've tried to be careful and bring to it the awareness it deserves but, having never been forced to deal with the reality of it myself, I may need to bow out of future discussions on this subject lest I continue to make missteps that offend. It's a difficult topic.

[lupinella]

75. K&R n/t

[DiverDave]

82. I am sick of people saying that there isnt a rape problem

in our society.
Blame the victim, slut shame them, rally round the guy ( hey a hard dick just HAS to get relief, fucking sick)
Jeer the vic until she kills herself...

What the FUCK? I mean really WTF are parents teaching their boys?

I have 2 boys, they have heard since they were little that girls are just as good as them.
And if I had a daughter and she was raped, there would be a boy(s) in the god damned hospital.
Damn the consequences to me.
I am amazed that more fathers don't do this.

[seabeyond]

90. +1. i have two boys also, and have had many conversation and they have a father that

provides an excellent example of being a man and respectful. they are well on their way.

i hear you dude. all this really is not hard.

i discuss with my nieces their boundaries, lines and expectation of respect. i discuss the disparity in treatment of men vs woman to my boys, for their own personal awareness and knowledge.

raise our children well

and when someone asks... what can we do, that is a pretty good starter.

[WCLinolVir]

94. Not hard to believe this was flagged by someone, who shall remain nameless.

After all, this society has no fear of us discussing an issue that affects so many of us, do they? I mean imagine if we all started not to worry about being victims, and felt empowered to change the world. We are the majority. We deserve respect and honor for what we have had to deal with. We deserve a future without this and we can do it. Yes we can. Even if men fear us for doing it.

[freshwest]

169. You mean it was juried? Can you post the results? It won't show the names and is otten done. I only

ask because I want to know the reasoning behind it. TIA, if you will take the time to do so.

[freshwest]

174. Thank you very much. I'll read that. I missed the post by one voice. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

99. Rape is caused by the conscious decision of a small percentage to commit a violent crime.

Constantly focusing on "rape culture" is about as helpful as constantly using the term "white privilege" when addressing racial discrimination.

[seabeyond]

101. looking at what causes cancers, like smoking is a total waste of time, when addressing the killer

cancer.

ya.... address cancer, when a person has it. and look at what causes that cancer to try and prevent the next case.

no different. and the importance of understanding rape culture. that simple

[KittyWampus]

102. rape culture is why so many of those criminals go uncharged or escape conviction.

[nomorenomore08]

104. But using terms like "white privilege" or "rape culture" helps put things in a larger social context

whereas those who "reject" such terms seem to want to pretend said social context doesn't exist.

Yes, only a small percentage of people (mostly men) commit sexual assault. But there are many ways in which such people are aided and abetted, often unintentionally, by the culture at large.

[malthaussen]

108. Let me see if I understand you correctly...

... you are maintaining that understanding context is of no value in evaluating behavior?

-- Mal

[WCLinolVir]

109. Statistically speaking you are wrong.

[mbperrin]

119. Are you suggesting there is no white privilege in this country?

Wow.

[Ohio Joe]

200. Yes, he is saying they do not exist. When they put it in quotes, it is exactly what they mean

Denial like that is pretty fucked up.

[Hippo_Tron]

137. And if there were a small amount of rapes, you might have a point...

But when 1 in 4 women are victims, it isn't just the problem of a (relatively) small percentage of people, it's the rest of us who allow them to get away with what they did and not face any consequences.

[CFLDem]

178. Thank you for this.

It really needs to be said more even if it goes unheeded.

[malthaussen]

100. The analogy is imperfect, but...

... I have a friend whose name is constantly mispronounced by everyone. It's not a hard name, either. She dislikes this intensely, and makes a point of reminding people whenever they mispronounce it. Yet some people continue to do so, regardless of knowing better. Once her boss even yelled at her "Don't give me that shit about your name again."

She is convinced (and I obviously agree) that this attitude reflects contempt, disregard, and not a little self-centeredness on the part of those people. Seems like a denial of personhood, and rather vindictive when it is a deliberate policy and not an honest mistake.

As I say, the analogy is imperfect, and obviously having one's name mispronounced is trivial when compared to physical assault. But I submit that the roots for both lie in the aggressive refusal to acknowledge the right of another individual to her own dignity and self-integrity. Or identity, even.

-- Mal

[freshwest]

170. Well said it fits many circumstances. n/t

[whathehell]

110. a women's photo with "Tape her and Rape her" doesn't "violate Facebook community standards"??

If THAT doesn't violate "community standards" what does?

[seabeyond]

111. more. that photo does not seems to stop men in ther tracks to question their position that

there is no rape culture. that other crimes and experience are exactly the same.

rape culture is so entrenched, that they see that picture and not even a bother, thought, concern or insight.

[redqueen]

132. The complete disregard for this and other feminist issues by facebook

has resulted in motivating so many new, young, energized radical feminists.

Not only have women left the site, they have gone on to become activists and raise awareness about these cultural roots of women's oppression with others.

A horrible thing resulted in a beautiful thing, so I sort of have to thank the patriarchy-loving assholes monitoring Facebook for that

[seabeyond]

125. always interesting being school by a man with 20 posts how us women are melodramatic, should

appreciate what we are allowed in this country compared to other countries and it is all cause of that very stable science called evo psych

i am out of here for the day redqueen. thank you for the Op. rape culture is hard for so many to really understand even with good intentions. it does not help at all when people register to simply derail an conversation on discussion on this issue.

all have a wonderfully fun and peaceful sunday....

[redqueen]

128. "appreciate what we are allowed in this country compared to other countries"

Gee why does that sound so familiar? Would be a good idea to discuss why that is so fucked up, don't you think? Oh, wait... You tried that and got silenced, didn't you?


Anyway, yeah, I'm not going to bother engaging with that person. I think we all know it is a waste of time. Enjoy your Sunday

[seabeyond]

129. twinklin' in joy woman. always. damn, life is awesome as we make it.

just read in another thread how it is the mean ole fems that make the men vote repugs, lol

i mean.

lol

welcome to a progressive board.

and the newbie says we are melodramatic

[redqueen]

133. Wow, I've seen women blamed for men voting republican before...

but it was in one of those subforums. Is that sentiment getting aired in GD now?

[seabeyond]

134. sounds like it to me. am i wrong?

Men tend to vote for Republicans in part because the collective guilt directed their way by feminist organizations.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024752265#post100

[cyberswede]

146. So, let's discuss it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024753657

[thucythucy]

135. Thank you Redqueen.

You are such a resource, a treasure for DU.

Best wishes, and keep up the good fight.

[Solly Mack]

147. K&R

[Sarah Ibarruri]

151. Yup. I think all rapists or would-be rapists belong behind bars. I don't know what their

little problem is, but it's not my problem, nor should women have to be concerned about what compelled them to rape or try to rape.

[HERVEPA]

154. This post presents the case very well. Those who deny such a culture exists

Last edited Sun Mar 30, 2014, 11:33 PM - Edit history (1)

are at best kidding themselves, are naive, or just don't give a damn.

[brett_jv]

185. Not the only options ...

There's also those that very much 'give a damn' and support the cause at large, but who honestly, and after careful consideration, feel that this vehement promulgation of the existence of a 'rape culture' ... is the exact WRONG approach to addressing and correcting the issue.

[bettyellen]

157. thank you, the alerter shld be taken to the woodshed and shipped off to MRA Island

[freshwest]

184. Wondering if anyone in the Jury realized that they can Alert the Alerter or other Juror comments

by the 'Alert abuse' link within the message with the decision?

It would give Admins a chance to see if it's a pattern, or if they see it as a frivolous Alert.

[Louisiana1976]

160. Excellent post. K&R

[freshwest]

175. Excellent examples. And regarding Noam Chomsky about the condition of many women in the world:

Noam Chomsky finally talks about women's issues

http://angryforareason.blogspot.com/2008/07/noam-chomsky-finally-talks-about-womens.html

Chris Hedges went further:

Red Queen, I hope that you don't consider this a diversion, but we've already seen this OP was juried and trolled by 'name removed.' But this tweet made a connection:



Anyone claiming the media and other forces are not promoting a rape culture from many venues, from Duck Dynasty, Ted Nugent, politicians and pundits, video games, music, books like The Handmaiden's Tale, Shades of Grey, are in denial. They repeat the meme that it's all good since people find it entertaining and fun, will never ever 'get it.'

By denial, they are making the world less safe, not just for adult women, but men, and children, both male and female.

I am adding this for your thread, but will not answer all comments, if there are any, I'm putting it here for a reference. Most women will not complain here because of the backlash they know is coming. These subjects have been dissed for years at DU which disappoints many lurkers and members.

You and I have both seen what the arguments will be. Sorry, I don't have time to try to get people to show respect to others who won't drop their sense of entitlement to disrespect others. It's a circular argument, thus hopeless.

But this and many of your other threads, seek to enlighten those with open minds and hearts. I just want you to know that many of us do appreciate you keeping at it, despite the abuse, Red Queen.

Namaste

[seabeyond]

176. excellent additions. you are absolutely right on. nt

[freshwest]

177. Thanks.

[redqueen]

180. Thank you.

Your post is very much appreciated.

[brett_jv]

179. While I understand the good intentions involved in raising the issue ...

I have to wonder whether anyone involved in vociferously promulgating this idea that there's a 'rape culture' (BTW, is this 'the West', or 'The USA', or 'The World' that supposedly has this 'culture'? I've never been clear on the purported 'scope' ...) going on has given any real thought to the seemingly obvious DOWNSIDE of using this term?

Because quite frankly it seems to me that the much-maligned (here in this thread anyway) RAINN people may actually be one step ahead of some of you.

Now, hear me out.

If 'people' go around insisting that here in the (World? West? USA?) that there's this 'rape culture' and that this is the 'real problem' ... does this NOT 'shift blame' away from the individual criminal involved in perpetrating the act? Does this not provide 'cover' for them? After all, they're 'living in this culture', right? Do we really want to 'tell people' that they live in a culture that condones Rape?

I dunno, I 'get' trying to raise awareness that people at large don't appear to consider the subject as seriously as they should, but I think it's misguided to attack the problem from the 'cultural' level. The way it seems to me, rapists are friggin' criminals, and NOBODY other than criminals 'condones' rape.

Why insist that there's this 'culture of rape' when all that (it seems to me) that's really going to do is a) give cover to the real criminal, and b) potentially irritate people who might otherwise 'agree' with you, but instead feel hostile towards your cause because you're (in most cases, quite wrongly tbh) pointing the finger towards them ('they' being members of the culture at large)?

Consider how our African American brothers and sisters, a few generations back, and LGBT folk more recently, have gone about attaining their proper rights. They did not do so by attacking the entire culture as 'racist' or 'homophobic' ... they went about it more by adopting the position that the individuals who are racist/homophobic, are the OUTLIERS, the 'bad ones', NOT by insisting the whole 'culture' was racist and/or homophobic, right?

I guess I just don't 'get' this particular 'angle' of addressing the issue. Seems counter-productive to me, intuitively, is all I'm saying. I feel like the approach of ostracizing the particular individuals who either actually rape, or don't think it's a 'big deal', is probably the more effective one ... rather than essentially saying 'your whole culture agrees with you, and this is probably why you did it!'.

[seabeyond]

205. 'real problem' why do you have to qualify it in that manner/ to support your argument. how about

this

rainn is flabbergasted that colleges address accused rapes by a board. and states that these cases need to go to a criminal system because they are crimes. not put in front of a college board.

here is the thing. they dismiss the rape culture as an excuse. but the reality is.... the reason a college has gotten away with a "board" to investigate rapes is BECAUSE of the very rape culture that is being discussed.

cancer. when finding cancer, you address the cancer. when not address a specific cancer, you look at the causes for that cancer and educate, so others do not get cancer.

rape. when looking at a rape you deal with the fuggin rapist. when not dealing with an individual rape, you look at what causes and address, educate, to lessen the number of rapes.

this is not fuggin rocket science.

[brett_jv]

213. If you're really unable to ascertain how a 'campaign' like this could backfire ...

Tell you what, I'll lay it out one more time.

Here's what the 'rape culture' message is meant to be, roughly:

'Everyone in our Culture seems to think Rape is No Biggie ... and that's horrible and needs to change!'

And here's what the would-be criminal is going to hear:

'Everyone in our Culture seems to think Rape is No Biggie ... so I guess it must not be, and I'm not really responsible if I rape, because I've learned it's okay from my culture!'

Do you not get that a thoughtful person, who's ON YOUR SIDE, might honestly think that this 'campaign' to declare that we have a 'Rape Culture' ... might be counter-productive? And that maybe THAT is why the people who are 'rejecting' the idea ... are actually doing so?

Like you said, this ain't fuggin rocket surgery ...

[davidn3600]

181. Rape culture = all men are potential rapists and all women are potential victims

I get it now...

I mean if you have these mandatory college campus seminars that several here have suggested on this thread...what exactly would these seminars be about? I imagine they will be run by only professors from the gender studies department. I imagine they will concentrate 99% on how evil men are. They wont talk about issues such as college drug use or binge-drinking. It won't talk about rape between male homosexuals. It won't talk about how wrong it would be for a woman to pinch a man's ass while people laugh (which happened to me by the way). I imagine they won't allow any discussion or debate. It will be a one-sided, anti-male affair that 90% of men will roll their eyes through the entire thing and 99% will forget everything that is told in there.

And this in your mind will lower the prevalence of rape on college campuses?

[jeff47]

188. I bet if you tried, you could come up with a dumber post.

It might be a challenge, but I bet you could come up with an even dumber misunderstanding.

Rape culture is when one of the most common questions of a victim is "what were you wearing?". It is not claiming that all men are demon beasts. Though that claim is an extremely common attempt to deflect.

what exactly would these seminars be about?

Well, I had one long ago when I entered college. It basically came down to "if she says no, don't do it. If you've already started and she says no, you have to stop."

Boy, that is a terrible anti-men message.

They wont talk about issues such as college drug use or binge-drinking.

Yes, if only the victims had never drank or done drugs, they would have not invited someone to rape them.

That is, if you're quite comfortably immersed in rape culture.

It won't talk about rape between male homosexuals.

Actually, it did cover that gender of victim and perpetrator are irrelevant. It is possible for women to rape men, after all.

It won't talk about how wrong it would be for a woman to pinch a man's ass while people laugh (which happened to me by the way).

No, unwanted contact was covered, regardless of genders involved.

Btw, why didn't you turn the woman in? Rape culture. Men are expected to like such attention by women.

I imagine they won't allow any discussion or debate.

About?

You gonna debate just how much skin she can show? Whether or not drinking means she can be raped?

[nomorenomore08]

190. "If she says no, don't do it. If you've already started and she says no, you have to stop."

There it is, in plain English. How the hell could any decent, sensible person have a problem with that message?

And "99%" of women's studies being about "how terrible men are"?

[davidn3600]

191. Since when does a rapist care if a woman is screaming "no?"

97% of men are not going to force themselves on a woman screaming "no." You don't need a seminar to teach men that. That's common fucking sense.

[jeff47]

193. There are different kinds of rapists.

The ones who are raping because they're power-mad sadists won't care.

The ones who are "just trying to get laid" may stop.

But more importantly, the class also covered what would happen to you if you did not stop. Providing some incentive for the latter group to pay attention to what she says.

You don't need a seminar to teach men that. That's common fucking sense.

If that were true, people like you wouldn't be trying to stop such classes. And you wouldn't be trying to shift the conversation to victim-blaming via drugs and alcohol.

[davidn3600]

195. I was suggesting the alcohol is to blame for the rapist's behavior

First off, young people dont tend to make the best judgements and decisions. That problem is amplified by alcohol. A lot of times these guys get drunk, they start feeling that buzz and think they are invincible and can rule the world.

Ask any cop and they will tell you more than half the calls they get for a crime on any given night has alcohol and drugs involved.

People do stupid things when they are drunk. And some people get violent. Im not making excuses for the rapist in any way. Im simply saying that when alcohol is involved, people do dumb shit.

[jeff47]

196. Which is an excuse, why?

Btw, it was made clear that those rules I mentioned applied whether or not the rapist was drunk.

Im not making excuses for the rapist in any way. Im simply saying that when alcohol is involved, people do dumb shit.

People are also quite capable of not doing dumb shit. For example, ever murdered someone while you were drunk? No? You mean you still have a concept of morality despite drinking some beers? "I was drunk, officer" doesn't get you out of jail?

young people dont tend to make the best judgements and decisions. That problem is amplified by alcohol.

Golly, if there was only some way to communicate with these young people. Some sort of mechanism to impart information. That could tell them why a particular course of action was a bad idea. Even when drunk.

Perhaps we could call it a "class". And stick it in their freshman orientation.

These programs you fear will not be able to stop all rapes. However, they have been shown to reduce the number of rapes.

[cyberswede]

194. Saying no, not screaming no.

There's a difference, you know.

Edit: and you really need to read this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024756135

[seabeyond]

207. hey david... make up a whole friggin story, however you choose, throw out to derail conversation

[Tsiyu]

183. That the one sick rape joke stood on facebook

sez it ALL....

[nomorenomore08]

192. Even people who agree with that vile shit don't think it's "funny." They just pretend to

because then they can validate their despicable views while passing it off as a bad joke.

[Deep13]

202. ...when other men just assume that I want to have sex all the time...

...provided the woman is sufficiently attractive, or that I want to see magazine pictures of an actress in her underwear, or that I agree that the most important thing is to "score."

Seriously, I had the most disturbing, one-sided, misogynistic conversation at the barber shop recently. I can't say it was in the crudest possible terms, but it was bad enough.

[seabeyond]

208. ya deep. it has so aggressively become a caricature of all that a man is. it is sad. and it use

to not be this way. we have made sex so very unhealthy. it is all a man is and what defines him. (really? so sad?) and it is all that a woman is in giving it to a man.

totally messed up for both genders.

[Deep13]

210. true. nt