Is "rape culture" responsible for child rape, incest and pedophilia?

[NoOneMan]

Do you believe that prevalent ideas about child rape in our society promote and make this activity permissible, or is still still discouraged by our society and punished severely?

As we know, a powerful & wealthy Du Pont heir just got off on child rape, and I've been told its an example of "rape culture". That's new to me.

What say you DU?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. In part.

Culture helps shape you, and define what you feel are topics that might be 'taboo', even illegal. It affects the actions of perpetrators, victims, and those whose job it is to actually stop perpetrators from acting again. If rape was taken as seriously as the problem it is, we wouldn't have 400000 rape kits sitting around gathering dust in the US, and there could be up to 400000 fewer rapists wandering around on the streets. We wouldn't have upwards of 90% of rapes go unreported.

Is 'rape culture 100% responsible for child rape, incest, and pedophilia?' Of course not. But neither is it 0% responsible. People are ultimately responsible for their own actions, but culture affects just how likely they are to perform any number of actions, from the most mundane and innocuous, to the most depraved.

[NoOneMan]

6. Why are you assuming all child rapists do not consider their actions taboo?

I disagree with this point very much that you made. In many cases, you are dealing with mental illness and compulsions where people act and do things, even knowing full well they are 'wrong', illegal and they will be thrown in jail.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

12. I'm not.

And I'm not sure how you read my reply to assume that's what I was saying.

[NoOneMan]

15. Your first sentence

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

20. Ok, I'll attach a caveat for you.

Nothing I say is to be taken to mean "in 100% of all cases" unless I explicitly say so.

I would think that the average poster might be aware that most people do not speak in absolutes when making rather general statements.

Although, even in the case of mentally disturbed individuals, yes, culture does help shape them too. Whether or not they are 'aware' that some of the things they do or want to do are illegal, immoral, or simply 'taboo'.

[NoOneMan]

31. And I accept that

But I also must suggest, that even a cultural taboo could, in some individuals, promote the pursuit of a taboo behavior (think of times when sexual activity was highly repressed, or even illicit substances).

Further, I wouldn't suggest some rare, minority output is always due to a society promoting and accepting a certain set of behavior. Especially when it is shown that society greatly rejects such behavior. And as a large ambiguous entity, it can damn well produce something that it vastly punishes and rejects (which I think is more the case here). I really don't think its the same as what people are getting at when they talk about "rape culture" (the active acceptance, promotion and forgiveness)

[11 Bravo]

34. Maybe when you've been here for more than a couple of weeks we'll all be able to discern ...

the nuance you claim to embrace. Until then, are we to assume that you are being less than completely honest?
(But I will give you bonus chutzpah points for attempting to speak for "the average poster" this early in your tenure.)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

39. Laugh.

I'm a long time poster from Daily Kos, and really, the two blogs, while being different in format, are turning out to be pretty similar in the way posters interact, and the relative range of positions they hold on various issues. Other than not knowing specific individual names and their stances, it really doesn't feel all that much different.

As to your 'until then' question, I consider myself to be as honest as anyone else. Most people speak in fairly sweeping statements, and expect not to be taken to be speaking 'ex cathedra'. There are always exceptions to any rule that depends upon human behaviour, and I think that's a given, so I'm surprised to have to defend that idea.

[Whisp]

68. lol

did I mention I own a small country?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

84. Not in any posts I've read.

Congrats, I guess.

[CANDO]

23. My problem with these "culture" OP's

Is the attitude with which they are written. If you say there is a culture which can affect some things, I'll agree. But don't come on and post an OP in an accusatory and sanctimonious and nasty demeanor as though all men on DU are rapists also. It was the same thing with the Sandusky pedo thing. Gawd forbid you ever so much as rooted for Penn State. After all, all PSU'ers are tolerant of pedophile coaches, you know, it's the culture. If people wish to discuss things, do it in the proper demeanor and stow the pious, sanctimonious, and accusatory bullshit.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

35. Culture has little to do with 'accusation'.

While you can, in fact, work to shape culture, it takes a lot of people to actually do so (unless you're a major celebrity, I suppose.). You're much more acted upon by culture than you are acting upon it.

It's like white privilege. If you're white, in the US, you have it. But it doesn't instantly mean you're a racist bigot. Nor does it mean you're going to be rich, and live a life of luxury. It's more a statistical thing, such that you're far more likely to have a greater net worth than your counterpart with a darker skin. More likely to have a chance to get into better schools, to not be instantly pegged as a criminal if you walk down certain streets. It's more about not having bad things assumed about you, than having good things magically dropped in your lap. People who want to eliminate privilege don't want to take things away from white people. They just want the same things for black and brown and yellow and red people. To not get stopped far more often by police, to not get thrown in jail far more often and for longer times for the same crimes.

So acknowledging that there is a culture that largely turns a blind eye to rape, even suggests that it's 'normal' or 'expected' in songs and movies, does not accuse males in general, or even DU males in specific of being anything other than just guys operating under the same culture as anyone else male or female.

Now I suppose you could consider that 'pious' or 'sanctimonious', but I don't particularly. I save those attitudes for my rants on wealth inequality

[JackRiddler]

51. Penn State: great example.

As we know, Sandusky had been given decades of protection by other PSU staff who knew what he was doing, which is a hair-raising indicator of the relative value of children's bodies as against the all-important football culture. But when, finally, the responsible Joe Paterno was asked to retire, it prompted riots by hundreds of rowdy, threatening students who overturned a cop van. When this, of all things, is what stirs up student protests, then yeah, there's a serious culture problem at the place. It's about more than rape, clearly, but by making rape into an irrelevancy and Joe Paterno's career into a priority, it is very definitely a culture that fosters rape.

[GP6971]

79. Well said!

And sadly, how so true.

[CANDO]

230. Cherry picker

How convenient to cherry pick and and accuse the student body who protested JoePa's firing. You do know that the students who protested weren't actually supporting the raping of schoolchildren, right? If you believe that, you need to seek a mental health expert asap. They simply didn't think he was responsible for the actions of another individual. To this day, there is speculation all over the map as to the facts and truthfulness of JoePa's knowledge of events. I'm not personally an apologist or defender of JoePa. My entire point of giving a shit is the high horse you passive aggressive types like to ride into situations such as that and cast a wide net and accuse innocent bystanders of the crimes of the sick bastard who committed them.

[JackRiddler]

243. The protest demonstrated the priorities.

No one said they demonstrated for child rape or are responsible for the crime.

They were showing that they thought the career of the man who presided over the cover-up, that their love for "JoePa," was more important than whatever the Sandusky story may have been.

Thus they are participating in a culture that reflects this valuation.

[CANDO]

246. Who made you master of the universe?

Nice that you think yourself so grandiose as to determine other people's priorities. Nice try. At the time, and still to this day, a so called cover up has yet to be proven. But nice of you to indict the students. This "culture", you think it exists elsewhere, or just at Penn State? Like football factory schools across the country are so much less "cultural" than little old Penn State. Whatever dude....off to my ignore list.

[JackRiddler]

247. The people in question showed their priorities.

They rioted because of the resignation of "JoePa," sending a clear message. They did not riot (or protest) because of Sandusky. Sorry that you have problems with this.

[uppityperson]

2. Try here...

edited to permalink so you don't have to wait for entire thread to load
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4754913

[NoOneMan]

9. I'm not sure that has anything to do with child rape and incest

Does it?

[PDJane]

3. That's a combination of a number of things.

The so-called 'rape culture' is only one of them. There is a youth culture run amok there, too. Power and revenge likely pay a part. He is rich enough to feel that he's not going to have to pay....

It's all obscene. Time to teach young men that they are a) not that special that they can demand sex from every woman they want, and b) that real men don't force themselves on unwilling victims, especially children.

[seabeyond]

17. you are right on. and it is really this simple. it will take us a long ways. i guarantee. nt

[CFLDem]

45. Good luck teaching young men anything.

We generally think we are invincible and know it all.

Always have, and always will be, with every generation.

[seabeyond]

52. and there are many many that are like tons more insightful and would find your shallow

definition of who young men are to be very insulting. so sad. but you work so hard to keep this shallow male alive.

[CFLDem]

53. And they are all considered dorks by their peers.

[seabeyond]

56. really? firstly, most dont really care. they are not so awfully impressed with young men like you.

and secondly, ... how the fuck old are you? really?

you did say young adult, didnt you? you know. adult?

i mean. haev you gotten out of highschool yet. cause generally, by then, the young men i know... really do not play that game. tis stupid.

[seabeyond]

70. 16? 18? so, no, you are not out of highschool. i really did not know i was wasting my time

with a kid.

i will leave you alone. for you to explain to us, the all powerful male sexuality, that is out of control. cannot be contained. cannot be educated or reasoned with. BUT..... to the young men that can contain, be reasoned with and educated.... they are dorks. nah nah nah nah nah.

lordy, dude.

[NoOneMan]

76. They are considered normal

Its the assholes that rape.

Its wasn't until I got to university that I saw anyone accused of rape held in any esteem. Of course, these were the same self-reinforcing groups that would urinate and puke on their pledging brothers when they weren't cattle-prodding their genitals. Well at least they weren't "dorks"

[joeglow3]

108. You must hang out with some pieces of shit

I have not witnessed anything you have said among my friends.

[nomorenomore08]

188. Yeah, men who care whether their sexual partners are consenting or not, are just uncool losers...

[gollygee]

55. Did you read what you said "Good luck teaching young men anything" about?

It was this:

Time to teach young men that they are a) not that special that they can demand sex from every woman they want, and b) that real men don't force themselves on unwilling victims, especially children.

You think young men can't be taught that?

[gollygee]

63. It sounds like you think young men are naturally rapists.

"Time to teach young men that they are a) not that special that they can demand sex from every woman they want, and b) that real men don't force themselves on unwilling victims, especially children. "

That means, "You can't rape people." Does having an "out of control libido" mean someone is a rapist? They literally can't control their libido to the point where they will rape?

If not, then they should be able to learn that they can't demand sex or force themselves on unwilling victims.

[seabeyond]

67. out of control libido, sounds like rape justification, not even rape apology. nt

[gollygee]

73. Well at least

we've been given an example of rape culture.

[seabeyond]

74. there you go. but then, we have had many, lol, in this very short time. and ya. nt

[Squinch]

66. YOu have just said that young men can't be taught not to force themselves

on unwilling victims, especially children.

You just said that. Do you care to edit your answer?

[seabeyond]

69. then he says, the young men that can, are dorks... and his like make sure they let them know

welcome to du

[CFLDem]

72. Edited. nt.

[cui bono]

236. So I guess you can teach young men your age something after all.

Or else I suspect you would have left your posts up.

Good for you then. Now you can share your new perspective with your friends and help make the world a better place.

[Doctor_J]

98. These stupid "every rape is the fault of every male" threads devolve quickly and inexorably

yet they seem to pop up at least 20 times per week.

[seabeyond]

101. especially since NO ONE said that. gotta make up arguments?

[Doctor_J]

125. Well, let's have a sampling of quotes from THIS thread

it's not that different from the other 19 this week

As we know, a powerful & wealthy Du Pont heir just got off on child rape, and I've been told its an example of "rape culture"

Good luck teaching young men anything.

out of control libido, sounds like rape justification

if rape culture includes the idea that men can't control their own dicks then yes

those last three are, in the quoted posts, applied to every male (in the US I guess).

The shithead that raped the 3-year-old got off because he's rich. Same reason OJ got off. Same reason Jameis Wilson got off (not rich, but soon will be). Just like the Catholic priests (most of their victims were also males). Same reason none of the banksters are in federal prison. This particular case has much more to do with the perpetrator's life station than anything else.

[seabeyond]

128. omg.... you are with me dude. i am all over the young guy that is dissing men right and left

saying how his libido is out of control and cannot educate young guys. yup

you and i

lets let cfl know, he is just wrong.

defender of men.... i am

lol

[Squinch]

104. Should we conclude from your post that you do not consider women to be part of our

culture?

And that you think the concept of rape culture boils down to "every rape is the fault of every male?"

Because both of those conclusions would be stupid.

[gollygee]

120. That came from CFLDem, not me

I was very surprised to read it.

[cui bono]

237. The only people I hear saying that or interpreting it like that are men.

The men who don't get it. No one is saying that rape culture means every man is responsible for every rape.

You understand how racism is systemic in the US, right? Same thing with sexism and rape culture. If you don't sense that because you are taking a defensive male perspective of it, trust us. It exists. And it does not mean what you think it does.

[GP6971]

87. There is a term called "respect"

It seems like you are not aware of it.

[CFLDem]

90. Respect is earned

never given.

[GP6971]

95. True, but respect

is also taught. Growing up I was taught to respect my parents, grandparents etc. same thing with woman, minorities etc. in order to earn respect, you have give respect to those that are deserving.

[CFLDem]

96. I respect my elders.

Doesn't mean I need to respect their opinions.

In fact is disrespectful to not provide correction when it is warranted. It's kinda like not telling someone when they have something in their teeth.

[GP6971]

102. Or they forgot to zip their fly!!

[antigone382]

164. What does a woman need to do to "earn" the respect to not be sexually objectified and/or assaulted?

Powder puff football? Winning a jalepeno eating competition? Peeing while standing up?

What are the prerequisites by which women earn the respect to be treated like human beings and not outlets for sexual or aggressive impulses?

[gollygee]

4. It isn't always punished severely

Think the Catholic Church, and Jerry Sandusky. People sometimes know about it but look the other way, sometimes for a very long time.

And people sometimes downplay how bad it is. There was a boy who was kidnapped and kept as an ongoing rape victim by someone, and Bill O'Reilly said things weren't so bad for him because his rapist bought him nice toys.

These are just a few examples. I've seen news articles like this often enough that I feel like it's part of our culture overall to downplay it. I worked as a newspaper reporter for eight years and remember some of the news stories at the time as well. A kid sexually abused by his grandfather, who was a pastor at a church, and his whole church protesting the trial saying the kid made it up. I sat in the trial. It had to take some mental gymnastics to dismiss that kid as easily as they did, but it was more important to them that their pastor not receive punishment than that their eyes be open to the child.

He was found guilty but he was not "punished severely." He got probation.

So is it discouraged? Not really. Is it punished severely? Sometimes, eventually, but not always.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

16. As was noted in another thread, there seems to be an

'exploitation culture' that is deeply embedded in our country, as well as in many other parts of the world. Whether blatantly in the case of slavery, or with a polite veneer, as in the case of capitalistic exploitation of labour by providing low pay for higher work return.

While outright slavery has been (for the most part) driven underground, exploitation of the 99% to benefit the 1% is not only largely considered 'just the way it is' but is even lauded by those in political power on both sides of the political spectrum.

So in the eyes of the 'elite', they were put on this earth to exploit anyone and everyone else for their pleasure and gain.

[gollygee]

57. This isn't about the 99% vs the 1%

In most cases, both the victim and the rapist are in the 99%.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

82. 'The fish rots from the head'.

We've been conditioned to exploit one another. With some folks that 'takes' better than with others.

[GeorgeGist]

5. I say you're a ...

[Zenlitened]

7. You should also note that a duPont heir got raped.

Her social class didn't do much to protect her, did it? Nor did it help her obtain justice.

These cries if "it's really about class!" are nothing but cheap excuse-making.

Rape culture is real, no matter how uncomfortable that plain fact makes some people feel.

[NoOneMan]

10. Huh?

A rich guy getting off isn't about him being rich because his victim was rich? Is that your final answer?

[Zenlitened]

22. Does rape culture exist? Yes or no. -n/t

[NoOneMan]

25. Sure. Does it have fuck all to do with incest and pedophilia?

Fuck no.

[Zenlitened]

29. You seem upset. There's no need to swear at me.

As others have pointed out, rape culture infuses all aspects of daily life to greater and lesser degrees. Your proclamation doesn't change that fact.

[NoOneMan]

32. So yes or no, is "rape culture" about promoting/accepting incest and pedophilia?

And if we can show that our culture does not promote/accept incest and pedophilia, can we then show it does not exist?

[Zenlitened]

36. Do you consider incest and pedophilia to be rape?

I think they are. And, yes, they too often are accepted/excused/hushed up/explained away.

Because rape culture plays a part in diminishing the experiences of victims and elevating the concerns of perpetrators.

Rape culture is real. I don't know why that fact upsets you so.

[NoOneMan]

43. "And, yes, they too often are accepted/excused/hushed up/explained away."

Bullshit. Incest and pedophilia are among the biggest taboos in our society and severely punished. From daycares to school institutions, they are mandated by law to immediately report any suspicions that children are being victimized.

[Zenlitened]

48. You don't seem to understand that something can be taboo, even against the law...

... and still be hush-hush. Do you really imagine that "mandated by law" means "how the world actually works"? Absurd.

Of course no one is declaring themselves to be "pro-rape." I can't even imagine why you'd use that ridiculous talking point as part of your arguments around this topic.

But every time a rape of any sort is unreported, charges plea-bargained, etc. that's a tacit acceptance that rape happens and there's nothing ya can do about it so why even try. Or that the social costs of holding the perpetrator accountable are somehow too great.

Because... rape culture. It's real, no matter how often you shout "bullshit."

Done with you. Bye bye.

[NoOneMan]

50. So society is hush hush pro-child rape and pro-child incest?

Because... rape culture. It's real, no matter how often you shout "bullshit."

I didn't say "rape culture" isn't a real thing. I am questioning whether this could be used to describe child rape, incest and pedophilia.

I assume you are resorting to a strawman fallacy because you cannot prove your point?

[Squinch]

118. Do you think that incest is a rare crime? Because it isn't and the estimates are

that the vast majority of it goes unreported.

[nomorenomore08]

192. Some people need to lay off the dualistic thinking. And I don't mean you.

I mean those who seem to have trouble understanding that something can be both illegal/taboo and tacitly allowed to happen.

[Squinch]

198. Actually, after a long conversation, I realized that he has no trouble understanding that

and is simply arguing silly points to be disruptive.

What some people need is constructive hobbies.

[nomorenomore08]

201. Agreed. n/t

[Squinch]

97. How about Sandusky? Do we have a culture that created a situation

where the success of a football team was placed above the welfare of scores of children, who were subsequently abused by a pedophile? Where there many adults in that situation who believed that ending the sexual abuse of scores of children was not quite as important as winning football games? And do you really think that is an isolated incident, and that other influential men do not use their influence to hide these crimes, and they are enabled by those around them?

Have you ever heard a joke that talks about a backward part of the country and includes references to incest in it? You know the kind of joke I mean, the "Uncle Daddy" type jokes. The National Lampoon Vacation movie bit about the child whose father says that sexually, she's the best, that type of thing. These are pretty common examples of our culture minimizing the devastation of incestuous rape.

How about the astonishing proliferation of child pornography. All that child porn is going out to a LOT of people, and its users are growing geometrically. But we are doing almost nothing as a culture to fight it. We just don't care to spend the money and effort.

How about the spate of recent court decisions where the court felt that the perpetrator was "led on" by the child, or could not have been expected to control himself in light of the "sexuality" of the child, and was given a light sentence. You don't see rape culture in that?

How about the sexualization of children? A recent study of children's clothing found that 30% of girls' clothing items had sexualizing characteristics. http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/natural-beauty-fashion/stories/study-30-percent-of-girls-clothing-has-sexualizing-characte This shows us that, as a culture, there are many adults who consider it appropriate to sexualize children. That's a cultural trend that indicates to a pedophile that it is fine to objectify younger and younger children as sexual instruments.

How about the concept, written into our laws for hundreds of years, that "a man's home is his castle." This has more ramifications than Stand Your Ground. See for example the 2005 Supreme Court case Gonzalez vs. Castle Rock. This basically said that police don't need to honor protection orders against violent fathers, and that those fathers have the right to access to their children up to and including the point where they perpetrate a violent crime against them. In the case, the crime was the murder of the children, but it also holds for incestuous rape. So there is a legally protected idea that the father's rights to the children surpasses the children's right to safety from the father. (Or presumably mother, but the case dealt with a father, as do most cases in which "a man's home is his castle" is a factor.)

Shall I go on? Because there's lots more where that came from.

[NoOneMan]

100. I think PSU may have

But I don't think that administration is reflective of society as a whole.

Shall I go on? Because there's lots more where that came from.

If I want. From what I am hearing, you've already convinced yourself that rape culture is involved with child rape and incest. Maybe child rape will stop if we just hate it more

[Squinch]

113. Maybe child rape will stop if we do something to stop it. But we have a culture that is not

interested in doing anything to stop it.

Do you get it now?

We know our culture is not interested in doing anything to stop child rape because, when people simply try to bring the idea of the cultural acceptance of rape into the open, members of our culture work very, very hard to shut down the discussion.

And from what I am seeing, no amount of concrete examples would convince you that child rape and incest have anything to do with rape culture.

[NoOneMan]

129. Our culture is very interested in stopping incest and child rape

So no, I don't get it now.

I do know what our culture is not interested in stopping: "rich people crime". When people simply try to bring the idea of the cultural acceptance of rich people crime into the open, members of our culture work very, very hard to shut down the discussion.

And from what I am seeing, no amount of concrete examples would convince you that child rape and incest have anything to do with rape culture.

I don't think any amount of people getting tossed in the can for raping children will convince you that society actually investigates and prosecutes these crimes.

[Texasgal]

132. How about the people

that don't get tossed in the can? Do you not believe that it happens? I think you have been given clear cut examples.

[NoOneMan]

134. Of course it happens. Not 100% of ALL criminals of EVERY crime see time

Does that mean our culture accepts/promotes/forgives EVERY SINGLE CRIME.

No. It means shit happens. And in the case of child rape, it is happening, and I don't know a soul who isn't interested in eradicating it from the face of the earth. Why don't you walk around a police station accusing them of just not caring enough about 3 year olds getting raped.

[Texasgal]

135. Well, I never said that

So, there is that.

There are plenty of examples and issues out there to support my opinion.

[NoOneMan]

137. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule in a large country

And beyond countless people getting time for this, there are LAWS on the books written, acceptable, and embraced by a society of people who support my opinion (that child rape and incest is not OK and never will be under any circumstances)

[Squinch]

145. I don't think that any number of people committing child rape and not being prosecuted will convince

you that society actually does not investigate and prosecute these crimes ENOUGH.



In fact, research has consistently shown that few abusers are ever identified or incarcerated. Estimates suggest that only 3% of all cases of child sexual abuse (Finkelhor & Dziuba-Leatherman, 1994; Timnick, 1985) and only 12% of rapes involving children are ever reported to police (Hanson et al., 1999).

Further research reveals that of the few cases reported to authorities, relatively few accused offenders are ever investigated or charged. For instance, the first National Incidence Study (Finkelhor, 1983) found that criminal action was taken in only 24% of substantiated cases of child sexual abuse -- a finding replicated by Sauzier (1989). After reviewing numerous studies, Bolen (2001) noted that in the end, offenders may be convicted in only 1-2% of cases of suspected abuse known to professionals. And even then, most convicted child molesters spend less than one year in jail.

Based on the high prevalence of sexual crimes against children on our society, it strains credulity to assume that the small number of cases that are actually prosecuted constitute a "witchhunt", or that somehow mostly innocent people are targeted for prosecution. In fact, statistics suggest quite the opposite: child abusers are rarely identified or prosecuted.

http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/res/csa_myths.html
emphasis mine.

[NoOneMan]

147. Thanks you for actually providing something other than an opinion or a wild claim

I'm going to look into this because I am generally astonished. I will state that I am curious as to the reasons, and will not automatically accept the premise that its because we all just dont give a damn about child rape (or like it), because that couldn't be further from my experience as a sentient human on this earth.

[Squinch]

150. You do know that your arguments can also be characterized as opinion or wild claims, right?

On the other hand, I did give you a number of concrete examples of places where our society turns a blind eye to the sexualization and sexual abuse of children, minimizes the severity of the sexual abuse of children, and enables the sexual abuse of children.

As with everything else, if we were motivated to do better with this as a culture, we would. Yet we are not.

[NoOneMan]

153. I didn't make the original claim. I have no burden of proof

But the fact that there are even enforced laws on the books just sums up, as laws are but a manifestation of the attitudes and beliefs of a society (but yes, not entirely).

I can show you concrete numbers that show very wealthy people (like this Du Pont heir) are not prosecuted or serve lighter sentences for all sorts of crime. White collar crime has become a damn joke.

[Squinch]

159. I am thinking of at least two DuPonts who have gone to jail relatively recently for murder.

John E. and a guy named Durst who, I believe was a cousin.

[nomorenomore08]

189. It's connected, at least, by the idea that it's okay to exploit/victimize others.

Whether the victim is a child or an adult, a family member or otherwise, that's the commonality.

[NoOneMan]

190. Aren't all crimes about exploiting and victimizing others?

Our entire economic system is about exploiting others, here or abroad

[nomorenomore08]

195. Yes and yes. I'm no doctrinaire Marxist, but I can't help but see rape as, in part, an example of

"capitalistic" exploitation taken to its extreme - or, some might argue, to its logical conclusion.

At the same time, I would argue that sexual assault/abuse is a "special" kind of crime because it's so intimate and personal, and tends to have such devastating psychological effects. Which is why the facile analogies with theft, mugging, etc. are so offensive.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. Intersectionality of privilege and class hurt her.

She did indeed share a number of the privileged states that her attacker did. But, significantly, she was a freaking 3 year old, and unable to defend herself either physically or through legal recourse.

Privilege is not magic, and can be defeated through sheer brute violence.

[Zenlitened]

30. Sheer brute violence... plus a judicial culture willing to explain away rape. -n/t

[etherealtruth]

8. It certainly is a component n/t

[CANDO]

11. Those "broad brush" OP's

Are bad news. Avoid them like the plague.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. when the victims character is questioned more than the perpetrator's character

therein lies rape culture.

I think there are instances where rape culture contributes to why some people think they can rape others and get away with it. It's not going to explain every single act of sexual violence, but it is a contributing factor.

I am not sure why people act as though culture (of any kind) explains 100% of any one behavior. Culture, like personality/motivation etc contribute to behavior.

[nomorenomore08]

199. Simplistic dualism. Some people seem addicted to it. n/t

[defacto7]

14. Violent narcissistic penis worship.

That's how I see rape culture and it probably extends to incest and pedophilia where males are concerned.

[NoOneMan]

19. Humans without penises can rape too

Humans with penises can get raped too

[defacto7]

47. Understood.

There's no conflict.

[nomorenomore08]

200. I think "violent" and "narcissistic" are the key words there.

(Nearly) every man loves his penis, but not every man treats it like some all-powerful monster which MUST be satiated at all costs.

[Ohio Joe]

18. What do I say?

I say the MRA's working overtime to deny rape culture are fucking disgusting.

[Zenlitened]

21. That I'd agree with. n/t

[NoOneMan]

24. So the Du Pont guy being a incestuous pedophile is due to "rape culture", or his getting off?

And BTW, no where do I state there is no "rape culture". I am merely questioning if it is responsible for incest, child rape and pedophilia, or if its referring to something else completely.

[Ohio Joe]

28. uppityperson gave you the answer... You choose to play ignorant...

I am expressing my disgust.

[NoOneMan]

33. They gave me a link to a flamebait thread

Which I really don't want to read. So to summarize, was it about incest and pedophilia? Yes or no works

[Ohio Joe]

37. Define irony... "They gave me a link to a flamebait thread"

[NoOneMan]

49. I'm asking a real question here

Which means Ill engage in a real discussion. Do you believe that "rape culture"--as its been defined--promote the activities of incest, child rape and pedophilia, thereby implying society's prevalent attitudes toward these activities is of acceptance
o
This is a real question. As I said, its news to me if so. I do not feel society, in anyway whatsoever, could debatably be described in such a way. If I am wrong, I'd like to know

[Ohio Joe]

61. No... No, you are not

You are making up your own definitions of things, making false claims and ignoring anything that shows it.

This MRA bullshit is not only disgusting but tiresome.

[NoOneMan]

64. Despite your claims, please understand I didn't start this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4754558

I am responding. My mind is boggled that people suggest a Du Pont heir getting off of incest child rape is due to "rape culture".

You can bend yourself in a pretzel accusing me of being an "MRA" type but its not going to prove the point whatsoever. In fact, I don't even understand what you are knee-jerking about or how you feel about this specific subject.

[Ohio Joe]

77. "My mind is boggled"... On that we can agree - nt

[nomorenomore08]

202. Why is it so hard to understand that sexual abuse/violence in general is ultimately connected

regardless of who the victim is? It's all based in the same mentality of predator and victim.

[NoOneMan]

203. Why is it so easy for you to think its all connected?

Maybe its not. Maybe we have different things happening that have different causes and influence and that life is not entirely black and white and fits perfectly into a talking point about "rape culture"

[Squinch]

123. I think it is just that they are blinded by astonishingly infantile self-centeredness.

The objection of all these guys seems to be, "When you say rape culture, you are insulting me because I'm not a rapist." They are the same guys who say, "When you talk about white privilege, you are insulting me personally."

Up thread someone actually says that the concept of rape culture means, "all men are rapists." These guys don't seem to understand that, first, there are women in the culture too, and second, the concept of rape culture is not an accusation of rape.

They simply cannot get it through their tiny minds that someone might have posted a thread that doesn't refer specifically to them personally. (Although I DO think their vociferous denial of the existence of rape culture is a prime example of rape culture at work.)

[Ohio Joe]

141. Agreed...

It seems a silly way to be taking it but I agree there are those that do take it that way.

[NoOneMan]

152. Maybe its because this whole topic with a Du Pont heir as example is fucking silliness

The "rape culture" thread about him doesn't even mention he is a rich fucker, or that rich fuckers get away with everything under the sun

[Squinch]

156. A man rapes a 3 year old and gets off because incarceration would be uncomfortable for him.

If he were convicted of the murdering that child, he would get jail time, even though he is rich. I am thinking of at least two DuPonts have gone to jail in recent years for murder. If he had murdered the child, this one would get jail time because we take murder seriously.

But he raped the 3 year old. And he will serve no jail time. Because a judge in our court system does not take the rape of a child seriously enough to think he should be inconvenienced.

That's rape culture. He would serve time for a murder conviction, DuPont or not. He is not serving time for the rape. It simply isn't considered serious enough to surpass the influence of his wealth.

[NoOneMan]

158. Plenty of rich get off for murder

[Squinch]

160. But apparently not DuPonts.

[Vashta Nerada]

27. In part.

But so is a whole host of other things that could make a person commit such heinous acts.

[Jackpine Radical]

38. See this post on that thread for my response.

And while I'm at it, permit me to point out that neither incest nor child molestation necessarily implies pedophilia. Canadian researcher Michael Seto, probably the foremost psychological expert on child molestation has written extensively about that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4755124

[NoOneMan]

40. I appreciate your response

But in this case, it is pedophilia, right (child molesters with prepubescent victims)?


The reason I've used that term is because I feel that what this person did fits within one of the strongest taboos in our society, and that therefore, it is absolutely ridiculous to associate what he did and how he got off with any attitudes prevalent in the culture (besides rich people worship).

[Jackpine Radical]

75. You can't diagnose a paraphilia based on behavior alone--

although that is often erroneously done. That is, you have to show a deviant arousal pattern underlying the act(s).

Dr. Allen Frances, general editor of the DSM-IV and IV-TR, takes the position that “Defining paraphilia based on acts alone blurs the distinction between mental disorder and ordinary criminality.” (Am J Psychiatry 165:10, October 2008)

[NoOneMan]

78. Gotcha

[Squinch]

130. How does child molestation, an act of pedophilia, not indicate pedophilia?

[Jackpine Radical]

149. Does this help?:

Here's what Dr. Allen Frances had to say on the topic. He was the overall editor of DSM-IV and IV-TR:

Am J Psychiatry 165:10, October 2008

Issues for DSM-V: Unintended Consequences of Small Changes: The Case of Paraphilias
Allen Frances

Although DSM-IV-TR includes many close judgment calls, it contains only one out- right mistake: in criterion A of the paraphilia section. The unintended consequences following what we thought was a small wording change provide a cautionary tale for DSM-V. The mistake arose from the decision to add the following criterion to most disorders in DSM-IV: “the disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.” This was a reminder that the symptom criteria alone are insufficient to define mental disorder (1). In the paraphilia section, the new wording replaced DSM-III-R criterion B, which had set the significance threshold based on either acting on the urges or experiencing distress (see Table 1 for pedophilia criteria). Furthermore, criterion A was amended (by adding “behavior” along with “fantasies” and “urges”) to emphasize that it is behavior that most typically brings individuals to clinical attention.

The reworded definition resulted in two unanticipated problems. First, conservative religious groups mistakenly worried that the change meant DSM-IV did not recognize pedophilia as a mental disorder unless it caused dis- tress (2–4). To eliminate this misinterpretation, the original DSM-III-R criterion B was reinstated in DSM-IV-TR for those paraphilias involving nonconsenting victims (i.e., pedophilia, voyeurism, exhibitionism, frotteurism, and sexual sadism) (5).
The minor adjustment in criterion A caused more serious problems. The addition of “or behaviors” led some forensic evaluators to conclude that sexual offenders might qualify as having a mental disorder based only on their having committed sexual offenses (e.g., rape). In many states with sexually violent predator statutes, the diagnosis of mental disorder is necessary to trigger indefinite civil psychiatric commitment for sexually violent offenders after their prison terms are completed. The constitutionality of these statutes hinges on the requirement that the sexual offenses are caused by a “mental abnormality.” Although the mental abnormality mentioned in the statutes is defined by state legislature and is not equivalent to any DSM disorder, the courts have acknowledged the importance of DSM diagnoses in the determination of whether the statutorily defined mental health criteria are satisfied (6). The revised criterion A word- ing has sometimes been used to justify making a paraphilia diagnosis based solely on a history of repeated acts of sexual violence, which is then argued as satisfying the statu- tory mandate for the presence of a “mental abnormality” (7, 8). This certainly was never our intent in DSM-IV. Defining paraphilia based on acts alone blurs the distinction be- tween mental disorder and ordinary criminality. Decisions regarding possible lifelong psychiatric commitment should not be made based on a misreading of a poorly worded DSM-IV criterion item.

[rrneck]

41. This one looks more like money culture to me.

Rich guy buys judge.

[davidn3600]

42. "Affluenza" is all that is

The laws apparently dont apply to rich people the way they apply to poor people.

[Prophet 451]

44. Um, I think...

I tend to think that the accusation of "rape culture" is an over-simplification that generates more heat than light and is used more an an accusatory label than as something to actually be resolved. This is actually the first thread related to the subject in a while that I haven't trashed.

Now, that said, our culture (I consider the US and UK to share a culture to a large degree) does a lousy job of protecting children of protecting children from abuse and exploitation while also having an almost hysterical attitude about paedophilia (especially in the UK). A comedian (I forget who) once described The Sun's attitude as "are you a paedo? Are you a paedo? Bang on her tits, sixteen today! Are you a paedo?". Or think, for example, of the Satanic Panics of the Eighties and early Nineties. So while our cultures are almost obsessed with child abuse and the sexualisation of children, that obsession is largely focused in the wrong areas because everyone is looking for a simple solution, be it "rape culture" or Satanist cults or whatever, rather than expending the time, money and effort required to deal with the complexity of the real causes. And when the rapists/abusers are actually caught and charged, they frequently evade punishment for various reasons although that's an issue with the legal system more than anything else.

With regard to the DuPont heir: I think this is more an example of one set of laws for the rich and one for the poor than anything else. Now, without knowing much about the case, it may be that the guy was a beneficiary of an awful judge (and both our nations need a better, quicker way of getting idiots off the bench), it may be that he was the beneficiary for the unwarranted leeway our culture gives to the rich (I'm much more convinced of the reality of the class war) or maybe his personal circle minimizes the exploitation of children, I don't know. Likewise, without talking to him, I can't know if he's a preferential offender (who will almost certainly offend again) or a situational offender (who might not).

[derby378]

60. As a critic of the whole "rape culture" craze, I think this is well said

This is not to say that guys cannot assimilate new perspectives about the nature of rape - God knows I have, as some DUers around here will attest to. But I do find the appeals to "rape culture" to be somewhat nebulous and sanctimonious.

That said, I think some individuals who treat women like dirt would love to establish a rape culture, like that guy who wore the "Women Are Property" shirt at the infamous Tailhook incident. And I'll be first in line to smack 'em down along with that DuPont monster.

[Prophet 451]

93. Oh, absolutely

There's a whole subculture of people who genuinely do want that kind of culture. I'm thinking especially of Goreans.

[nomorenomore08]

213. Maybe it "generates more heat than light" because some insist on taking everything personally

when they really shouldn't. As if merely using the phrase "rape culture" were an attack on all men - which assumption, if you ask me, does more to promote "men=rapists" bullshit than even the most extreme radfems.

[Prophet 451]

235. So your response to me observing that a phrase triggers antagonism

is to say "well, it's all the other side's fault". Brilliant.

[nomorenomore08]

238. I have zero sympathy for men who whine about "male bashing"

when there are women all over the world being abused and murdered by men! Period.

And I a man. So there.

[Prophet 451]

242. As I said, more heat than light

Your emotive response simply affirms it. Goodbye.

[nomorenomore08]

245. Yeah, that was over the top. I do get too emotional on here from time to time.

I guess it's mostly just frustration when (I feel) people aren't focusing on what's really important. Like focusing on their own personal feelings instead of serious, worldwide issues.

[CFLDem]

46. No

People rape children and commit incest because of unalterable internal urges.

Hence, it will happen regardless of what the culture is of the time.


That's why we need strict vigilance and consequences over such individuals and actions.

[JackRiddler]

54. Bullshit.

Are you saying there's a child rape gene that's going to manifest inevitably as an uncontrollable drive in those who have it? Has this been identified by some marvel of science?

It may be that some adults have become unable to control such urges. Even if these urges can be traced to heredity, even if birth is the primary cause of the eventual behavior by adults, still the urge and the accompanying personality profile can be encouraged and developed, or discouraged and channeled elsewhere, depending on environment and upbringing. Of course if children get raped, it is likelier that the same will happen in the next generation. Of course the rates of such rape vary from culture to culture.

Of course when a culture places no priority on condemning rape -- including child rape -- or even makes a joke out of it, then there will be less deterrence and more rape.

[NoOneMan]

58. So that's generally the root of my question

Of course when a culture places no priority on condemning rape -- including child rape -- there will be less deterrence and more rape.

So does the US place no priority on condemning child rape? Yes or no? Further, in doing so, is this a significant factor in the rate of child rapes and incestuous activities in the US?

[JackRiddler]

65. The U.S. is a big place.

Clearly there are groups or enclaves within it that place no priority on condemning child rape. That was clearly the case within the football program at PSU.

There's even another extreme - crazy law enforcement that tries to frame people and exaggerate child porn to justify police state measures.

[NoOneMan]

71. Absolutely

But in matters where people "get off" for their crimes, then we are normally talking about the US culture as a whole (or regionally), rather than smaller micro-systems that condone behavior of prized members that contribute to its success (Catholic Church/Sandusky). Sure, those smaller system may have a culture that could be described as such, but I'm not sure its applicable to the whole

[JackRiddler]

172. The culture at large?

Not very tolerant of child abuse, no.

Tolerant of rape, unfortunately - largely blind to it, like in most countries. Examples abound and are minimized - in threads like these. The less attention, the more lack of punishment or general moral approbation, the more jokes and minimization about what does happen, the more slut shaming, the more rape behavior will be encouraged.

And let's not start with prison rape - it's absolutely celebrated by a seeming majority. People always get off on it as the norm in prisons (whether this is always true or not) and as a just bonus punishment for perpetrators.

[nomorenomore08]

217. And of course, condoning prison rape undermines the struggle against all sexual violence.

That people don't see that, or simply don't care, is a tragedy in itself.

[CFLDem]

244. I have no clue how it comes to be.

But obviously it can't be changed once it comes to be since the damn rapists keep raping children no matter what society does.

It may not be pleasant news to the pie-in-the-sky everyone has potential to be redeemed crowd but that's the nature of truths.

Only thing we can do is mandatory chemical castration and isolation.

[nomorenomore08]

216. Even if the crime itself isn't (entirely) controllable, the collective societal response to it is.

If "unalterable internal urges" are really the issue, then we should be locking away a lot of folks for much longer than we are. Let out all the nonviolent drug offenders to make room, if necessary.

[eridani]

241. This is horseshit. Nothing about internal urges that can't be handled by

--Rosy Palm and her five daughters.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

80. What Rape Culture -IS- responsible for = Minimizing the effects that those actions

have on society as a whole. Making it possible for those that perpetuate these crimes to go largely unpunished, free to rape again.

Rape Culture denies the victim their right to justice.

Rape Culture claims that these actions are Just Not That Big of A Deal.

Therefore the victim is made to feel that their life is Just Not That Big of A Deal.

Their memories are not correct.

Their feelings are not validated.

Their own righteousness is not confirmed.

Their pain is not justified.

They are lesser.

[NoOneMan]

81. So does our culture think that the rape of a 3 year old is "Just Not That Big of A Deal"?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

83. Do you think the man's punishment fit the crime or not?

[NoOneMan]

103. I think there may have been other reasons the Du Pont heir got a slap on the wrist

Reasons beyond people thinking it was no big deal. No one on DU thinks its "No Big Deal". Who are all these people? Beyond the judge, I'm just not sure who you can point to.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

110. Do you understand that Rape Culture is a contributing factor in all this? Do you understand

just how privileged is a Rich. White. Man. in our society?

Do you not realize how insidiously it invades and pervades our culture and colors our perceptions and clouds our judgment?

I am not saying it is the Only Reason but, I am saying that I do not speak for all of DU as you are apparently doing in this statement:

No one on DU thinks its "No Big Deal

No Not Everyone neither, is it not -No One- either.

And no, I am not naming names. I don't have to. They and, the discerning reader know who they are.

[NoOneMan]

124. No, I don't understand that at all

Hence the OP.

The man is rich as almighty fuck. End of story.

And no, I am not naming names. I don't have to. They and, the discerning reader know who they are.

Please do not accuse DU of having pro-child-rapist members here who don't care if a 3-year old was victimized by her father. Thats the lowest of low. If I thought that, I frankly would not associate or post here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

127. you might want to edit your last sentence for comprehension. Peace Out.

[Spirochete]

85. Not entirely

I think what's responsible for the rape cuture and everything mentioned is an attitude a lot of them have that helpless against them=theirs for the taking, and to hell with what their victms feel about it. So they are related, IMO.

[nomorenomore08]

218. It's all rooted in the idea that the stronger has the right to exploit the weaker.

Goes along rather "nicely" with unfettered capitalism, or rather, unfettered capitalist patriarchy, in which the rich have the right to dominate the poor, men the right to dominate women, and adults the right to dominate children. It's all connected.

[Spirochete]

219. My thoughts exactly

it's bullying and domination on all levels. To them it's not what's right or wrong, but what they can get away with,

[nomorenomore08]

221. "To them it's not what's right or wrong, but what they can get away with."

That's the "morality" of the 1%, in a nutshell. But of course it also influences/infects the rest of us, if we aren't careful.

[Spider Jerusalem]

86. No.

Rape culture is not responsible for child rape and incest. Rape culture is responsible for judges letting paedophiles and child rapists off with light sentences. Rape culture is responsible for as many as eight of ten rapes and sexual assaults going unreported. Rape culture is responsible for things like a defence attorney saying an 11-year-old gang-rape victim brought it on herself because she was leading them on, the little hussy.

There's extensive recent research on paedophilia (which refers properly only to sexual attraction to children; not all paedophiles are molesters) that indicates that it's caused by underlying neurological issues.

This use of MRT has enlarged the understanding of pedophilia. Doctors have now identified a number of signs that can point to a successful diagnosis: "Pedophiles show a string of neuropsychological characteristics," said Ponseti. "For example, their intelligence quotient is about 8 percentage points lower than the average."

(snip)

Apart from that, there is evidence that pedophiles are physically smaller than average, and Canadian investigators have found that the average pedophile suffered twice as many head injuries in his childhood than average.

All the tests in Kiel happen in the Medical Center's neurological center, where computer images of sexually aroused heterosexual brains are stored. The images show active brain regions, lit up an intense red-orange color as strong blood flow causes high oxygen content.

"You can see the reward center very clearly on these pictures," explained Ponseti. "In the visual cortex further down, a stronger visual analysis happens as soon as an adult heterosexual man sees a woman of the same age. The exact same regions activate in a pedophile's brain when they see a naked child."

http://www.dw.de/scientists-find-brain-differences-in-pedophiles/a-16305968

See also here and here. Paedophiles are brain-damaged, or aberrant, in the same way that most serial killers are brain-damaged or aberrant (note that there's a correlation between head injury in childhood and paedophilia; this is a correlation that also exists for serial killers). It appears to be a neurological illness; it's not a manifestation of "rape culture".

[nomorenomore08]

220. Exactly. The collective response to sex crimes is more indicative of cultural attitudes than such

crimes in themselves. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that rape and abuse are not preventable - they certainly are to a significant extent - what's really telling is what happens after the crime has occurred, e.g. whether the victim seeks medical/psychological/legal assistance or not, and whether or not the crime, if reported, is properly prosecuted. Not to mention the level of support, or lack thereof, received by the victim from other people.

[HockeyMom]

88. Arrested development of child rapists

How many pedophiles rape ADULT women also? I think they target children because they cannot deal with an adult sexual situation; even a rape situation of an adult woman.

[redqueen]

92. THIS nt

[Tsiyu]

89. How's this working out for you?

Some AWESOME posts on this thread.

Steaming pile indeed.


Carry on....

[NoOneMan]

105. Fine. At least I'm not playing a game

If people truly think that the US has a culture that promotes rape and incest of children, then I will indeed listen to their arguments and proof.

[Tsiyu]

112. If we allow a man to rape a three year old

or a 14-yr old or any child, and we do not demand prison, we are allowing that rape to continue.

It's not a game, except to you.

You lose.

[NoOneMan]

115. But we don't.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/father-raped-daughter-3-finally-convicted-article-1.1712534
(just popped up in Google)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhopal/Man-gets-life-term-for-raping-3-year-old-disabled-daughter/articleshow/30585600.cms
(even India got it right)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-29/canberra-man-who-raped-toddler-in-a-library-sentenced-to-more-t/5225046
(another toddler rapist)

http://www.wmctv.com/story/24252848/man-sentenced-to-25-years-for-rape-of-3-year-old
(south gets it right)


We do allow the rich to steal, murder and rape

[Texasgal]

91. I'd really like to continue your thoughts on the Catholic Priests

I'd like to know how you feel about many victims stepping forward only to be chastised and not believed in their communities?

How was it that these priests were allowed to rape young boys all across the US for decades?

How can it not be part of the "culture"?

[NoOneMan]

106. So because the church heirarchy of a minority religion protected the priests, the US has a

culture that promotes child rape?

Are you people even listening to yourselves?


Because Warren Jeffs had free reign in his community (who is now in jail), does the US have a culture that promoted all the shit Warren Jeffs did?

No.

[Texasgal]

116. Catholics were not a minority 30 years ago.

lot's of people left the church because of this scandal and rightly so.

How many priests served time for their rapes? Why was Sandusky allowed to go on and on abusing young boys?

And please, I ask that you read what I say. I never said that the majority of people promote rape or pedophilia, it's the people that do not believe in the victims, it's the people that try to protect the perpetrators. There are plenty out there whether you want to believe it or not.

[NoOneMan]

121. "lot's of people left the church because of this scandal and rightly so. "

Yet we have a pro-child rape culture. Holy Scmoly

How many priests served time for their rapes?

No idea. I know who know, and its probably the church heirarchy and not the police department.

Why was Sandusky allowed to go on and on abusing young boys?

Because he was making the football program money. He isn't allowed anymore, right?

it's the people that do not believe in the victims, it's the people that try to protect the perpetrators.

But if those people are not the majority, I don't think you can say its due to the overall culture.

One thing I will note....if someone who is in a position of trust does this in a community, that community will be unlikely to overcome their bias effectively and deal with the situation when their personal feelings come into play. But as a society, we will always look at the community next door that we are not emotionally involved in and condemn actions that our culture has taught us is wrong. When we look at what happens in some of these micro-communities, I wouldn't suggest that is reflective of what the larger culture thinks, but rather, its reflective of members being confused and biased

[Texasgal]

126. The problem is that alot of people

allow it and keep it going on. It's been noted over and over again that judges let rape cases go. Sandusky was allowed to rape for years. Priests were allowed for years.

Why is that? Why did so many people deny those kids justice? Why did that happen? Why do so many rapists serve no time?

[NoOneMan]

139. Why, in a pro-child-rape society, are so many child-rape cases prosecuted with people jailed?

Your reality doesn't make sense. It doesn't compute

[Texasgal]

146. Why do do many keep victimizing for years

or decades?

"Your reality doesn't make sense. It doesn't compute"

[NoOneMan]

148. Is it because Johnny Beat Cop encourages it?

Of because their fellow PTA members swap child-rape stories with their cups of coffee?

[Texasgal]

151. Not a good answer.

Sorry.

Can you honestly answer?

We are obviously are at an impasse here. There is not much more I can say.

[NoOneMan]

154. Its a fine answer

Do you think child rapist do it for years because society (as a whole) cheers them on or doesn't care, or not? What about the ones that get arrested? What did they do wrong that we don't enjoy/like/condone/forgive? Why do these laws exist at all if we like it so much?

[Texasgal]

155. The laws are the problem!!

Why do so many get a free pass? Why aren't they ALL prosecuted? Why do so many get to go on with violence for years and decades even?

You have failed this answer over and over again.

[NoOneMan]

157. Its illegal by law. People are thrown in jail for it.

Why aren't they ALL prosecuted?

Why aren't all thieves or murderers prosecuted? Why aren't all criminals prosecuted? Does the US have a "crime culture"?


Why are they prosecuted at all? Why are there laws against child rape at yet. You have failed this answer over and over again.

[Texasgal]

162. Why are you not outraged

by people that get a pass?

Why are you not outraged that this asshole is getting probation?

I'm fucking outraged! You betcha! People that rape and take advantage outrages me! Yay. Some perps get jail time. YAY! What about the others?

Scoring political jargon on the backs of rape victims is incomprehensible to me.

Priests: Lot of people covered that... alot. No jail for many of those sleazes.

Sandusky- Save the football program. The kids were not believed, so it continued. How many victims could have been saved had someone anywhere said something?

[NoOneMan]

165. Why are you suggesting I'm not outraged this rich fuck got off?

That's odd.

Scoring political jargon on the backs of rape victims is incomprehensible to me.

Yeah, I think using any rape case casually to support a talking point is disgusting. Hm...I got to wonder where I've seen that.

[bettyellen]

207. because they look the other way too often, give up because it is difficult to get an arrest.

just like prosecuters give up, and police don't even test the rape kits. Too many are complicit in letting it slide.

[nomorenomore08]

223. You need to abandon this "either/or" way of thinking.

A person doesn't have to approve of something to simply look the other way.

[NoOneMan]

224. Who is looking away?

A single judge who has a history of sending rapists to jail, but made an exception for a Du Pont heir?

[nomorenomore08]

228. And you really believe this is the only time something like this has happened?

And that each of these cases is an "isolated incident" that has nothing to do with anything?

If so, then why does this fucked-up shit keep happening over and over?

[NoOneMan]

231. I think in a country of 300 million, no.

But that does not make it a rule due to an entire culture's permissive attitude about it

[nomorenomore08]

233. Even if we acknowledge that attitudes toward rape often *are* overly permissive, how does that

harm you in any way? By the vehemence of your posts, one might think you had something at stake here. What that is, I really have no idea - I think the defensiveness is completely unnecessary.

[NoOneMan]

239. What? A news story isn't about me. This isn't a personal discussion

I'm not sure what you gain by trying to make it such.

Look, a rich guy gets off. And some army of malcontents wants to claim a rape sentencing female judge is a misogynist because she made an exception in her career that just happens to be for a Du Pont heir.

Yeah, Occam's razor might explain this one.

People are highly invested in pretending this is all about "rape culture". Thats simply silly. If you want to hop on that train, good luck

[Squinch]

161. Why are so many not prosecuted and so few people jailed for such short sentences?

[Texasgal]

163. Good question.

Just because some people get prosecuted that seems to be enough. UGH. It hurts.

[NoOneMan]

166. Why are people prosecuted at all if we support/forgive/promote child rape as a whole?

Why is this even illegal if this is true?

[Texasgal]

171. Oh dear GOD!

get with the program!

Rapists and Pedophiles and people that think RAPE is okay is people that support it!

That includes Judges and people in power... alot of fucking people. Alot of people that do not believe that people cannot get raped by rich people or people that are in the clergy.

Do you live in a bubble?

[NoOneMan]

176. Well lets see some opinion polls

"Do you support child rape?"

"Do you think child rape is ok?"

[Texasgal]

194. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Why aren't you outraged at the sleaze that commits these crimes? Do you honestly think that that our police department and AG is all that? You've been given plenty of examples of many of these crimes that were not convicted!

So confusing! I think you are so into not believing that a rape culture exists that you are willing to back the perps.

making your point is one thing, but continuing on about sleaze balls that do not get prosecuted is another. Why is this so confusing to you?

[NoOneMan]

196. Why do you keep pretending I'm not outraged

That's really odd.

I think you are so into not believing that a rape culture exists that you are willing to back the perps.

What perp am I "backing"

Do you know what a straw man logical fallacy is?

We're all outraged because our culture does not condone child rape!

[Texasgal]

197. UGH!

maybe because you continue to post about the peeps that are caught and prosecuted?

how about the ones that are NOT??? Where is your outrage?

[Squinch]

175. I'm sorry for you. This is idiotic.

[NoOneMan]

179. I'm sorry you believe you live in a world where we are pro-child-rape

I'm not sure why there are even laws against it if this was the reality

[Squinch]

183. Idiotic.

[NoOneMan]

184. I agree, the idea that we have a "child rape culture" is absurd and idiotic

[Squinch]

185. I see you are reduced to the old, "I know you are but what am I" gambit? How unfortunate for you.

I now realize that you are just disrupting for the sake of disrupting. Sorry I wasted my time trying to have an actual conversation with you.

Disrupt away. It's not worth my time any more to respond to you.

Have a nice night.

[NoOneMan]

186. So questiong the absurd notion of a "child rape culture" is disrupting

You can toss out whatever nonsense you want but if its questioned is out of bounds disrupting. What a joke.

[elehhhhna]

94. if rape culture includes the idea that men can't control their own dicks then yes

[NoOneMan]

107. I don't think thats included in "rape culture"

Is it?

[seabeyond]

111. ya. that would be the promoted evo psych that some want to create as a legitimate science. though,

no more than the atheist religion to control and dominate women.

[elehhhhna]

248. uh, yeah. duh.

and we're out, trolly

[ljm2002]

99. When a judge decides...

...that a (rich) child rapist should get therapy rather than jail time, due to concerns about how he will fare in jail, then yes, that would be an example of "rape culture". While it does not directly CONDONE child rape, it definitely TOLERATES it to a degree that I don't think any of us are, or should be comfortable with.

A system that tolerates child rape is a system that is to some degree responsible for child rape. Of course the responsibility is not direct, and it does not in any way relieve the perpetrator of their responsibility.

Is the lack of accountability in the financial sector responsible for the ongoing criminal activities there? I would say yes, also to a degree. It isn't 100% of the story -- again, the perpetrators bear the greatest responsibility -- but not charging them plays its role in a culture that permits them to carry on, and to delude themselves they are doing nothing wrong.

[NoOneMan]

109. "that would be an example of "rape culture"."

But yet this really only occurs when the perpetrator is rich as almighty fuck.

[seabeyond]

114. "only occurs when the perpetrator is rich as almighty fuck." wrong. you are not listening. it is

happening across the nation. many documented events and i believe in this thread. but many have been put on du in just the last couple months. across the nation. repeatedly

[NoOneMan]

117. Bahhh. Bullshit

People are being arrested across the nation for victimizing children. Sure there are exceptions due to local negligence or dumbassery. The prosecution of those who victimize children is a priority in this culture.

[seabeyond]

119. well then. i guess you made clear to everyone, you really do not want to hear. bah, my ass.... nt

[NoOneMan]

122. There is nothing to hear

Your claims are baseless. In our society, our culture dictates that it is not acceptable to victimize children.

[seabeyond]

131. stuebenville, missouri, calif, connecticut, canada.... then there is the individual judges

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024754558#post19

[NoOneMan]

133. Exceptions, exceptions, exceptions

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4755988


Our culture does not promote and accept child rape. There are laws. They are serious. People are tossed in jail. Deal with it

[Texasgal]

136. A plenty are NOT.

Deal with it.

[seabeyond]

140. wow. basically your Op was a bullshit game. what a fuggin waste of time. not surprised though.

[NoOneMan]

142. When a incestuous Du Pont heir is used as a lighting rod for "rape culture"...

don't accuse me of playing games.

[seabeyond]

143. you say only the rich. it is proven not only the rich and you back pedal. your argument is a fail

[NoOneMan]

144. Nothing is proven

Show me the STATS that show for ALL people, across our population, that incest and child rape is not prosecuted or that the victimizers are not punished appropriately.

If you are trying to say our culture promotes child rape by accepting it or not punishing it enough, the burden of proof is on your side. You can't use outlier and exceptions. In general, what happens when a child claims they were raped by their parent? Where are the numbers?

[nomorenomore08]

227. And why are you so invested in believing that there isn't a serious problem here?

If it helps you sleep better at night, then I guess, more power to you...

[thucythucy]

169. For a culture that "dictates that it is not acceptable to victimize children"

a hell of a lot of children sure do seem to get victimized in that culture.

For instance, the National Center for Victims of Crime says that 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys will be or are the victim of child sexual abuse. And that's only sexual abuse. Physical and emotional abuse that isn't sexual is even more prevalent. Hell, there are entire religious denominations that still preach "spare the rod and spoil the child."

Now, there's a lot of controversy on the exact statistics, given that even today many instances of child sexual abuse are not reported (since it often occurs within families, and children are often either threatened with retaliation if they report, or told they are to blame, or feel they are to blame, or are conflicted about causing the arrest of a parent, family member, or family friend). But it's still a significant number of children.

Culture is not a monolith. Within the larger polyglot culture there are many distinctive cultures or sub-cultures--sports, church, fraternities/college campuses--that all have a role in how the mega-culture deals with a particular issue. And so there were times when the same priests who were sexually abusing children were also hearing confessions and counseling adult women and men who had been raped (or, for that matter, children seeking to flee abuse within their families). Don't you think their status as rapists, within a culture that countenanced the rape of thousands of children over the course of many decades, had an impact on how they related to adult survivors of rape, or child victims seeking help for abuse within their families? You don't think this had an impact on those individuals, which may have had a further impact on how other victims dealt with their experience? A subculture that treats rape, of adults or children, as anything less than a crime of violence almost inevitably impacts the larger culture, unless the larger culture takes explicit steps to counter that impact. In the case of the Catholic Church, the larger culture only BEGAN to respond to the abuse at the end of the 20th century.

There is STILL widespread child sexual abuse--though some reports have it declining, along with other sorts of violent crime.

As I said, for a culture that "dictates that it is not acceptable to victimize children," an awful lot of children still end up getting victimized. So either the culture has little impact on how many adults relate to many children, or the culture isn't as unaccepting of child victimization as you'd like to believe.

[boston bean]

173. Children not being believed, traumatized all over.

Told to keep quiet, they'll just cause trouble... Their abusers walking.

Yeah, there is nothing in this culture that helps to make that prevalent.

I'm just adding to you great post.

[NoOneMan]

174. There is an awful lot of all sorts of crimes occurring all the time

[thucythucy]

208. Which tells you what?

To repeat: one in five girls, one in twenty boys, will experience sexual abuse. This isn't just random violence happening here or there. It would appear to be pretty pervasive, cutting across all lines of class, race, ethnicity.

A part of how I see rape culture playing out is in the proliferation and easy acceptance of myths about sexual violence and abuse. For instance, the notion that child sexual abuse is something done primarily by strangers. The reality is that it's most often done by family members and family friends. Sometimes the abuse goes on for years. Often other family members know but choose to look the other way, or deliberately deny what they see, what they KNOW is happening. Family members might even rally around the perpetrator, singling out the abused child as "the family problem."

Our culture spends hundreds of billions of dollars a year feeding the military industrial complex (which, BTW, has its own rape culture). How much do we spend on rape education, identification, prevention? Our culture spends billions on a bogus "war against drugs" and yet--as has been pointed out on this very thread--tens of thousands (probably more) rape kits rot in police warehouses every year for lack of funding--or interest--in having them analyzed. It's hard to cite any other category of serious violent crime where crucial evidence is so often treated with such stunning indifference.

I think you're deluding yourself in thinking that this culture genuinely takes the abuse of children all that seriously. No more than it takes child poverty all that seriously. Yes, some progress has been made in recent decades (and in terms of sexual violence that progress is largely the result of feminists--generally women--working, organizing, struggling to make it happen) but far too often abuse gets swept under the rug. Now and again a particularly egregious example of abuse will be prosecuted--Penn State for instance--but even there it's only after years of abuse, only after multiple victims come forward, only after the host institution does everything it can--generally with the support of the local community---to cover up the abuse, to minimize it, to excuse the perpetrator.

No problem can be solved if people refuse to see the extent of the problem. On a whole host of issues--from climate change to gun violence to drug addiction to sexual abuse--this society, this culture or substantial parts thereof remain locked in stultifying denial.

[NoOneMan]

209. Which tells we dont need a culture to promote crimes in order for them to exist

Here is another example of a type of rape that I just don't think our culture promotes, accepts, condones, or should be used to support the notion of "rape culture"

I think you're deluding yourself in thinking that this culture genuinely takes the abuse of children all that seriously.

Maybe that's the case, but I still see these people going to kail. Everyone wants to keep screaming about Penn state, but that guy went to jail. At the end of the day, our culture doesn't like these people abusing children

[thucythucy]

210. Culture pervades everything we do--

we're cultural, social animals. We need culture to survive. It stands to reason that our culture will have an impact on how we relate to each other, and our children, and ourselves.

"Everyone wants to scream about Penn State"--and why not? "but that guy went to jail." But the college administrators who enabled the abuse to continue for years are still free, and when Paterno was forced to quit because of the scandal, students there rioted. Let's be clear. They didn't riot because young boys had been raped. They didn't riot because the college administration--which many of them support with their tuition money and which their parents support with their tax dollars--spent years looking the other way. They rioted because their great patron saint and hero of football was forced to step down. Isn't that something to decry?

You think situations like Penn State haven't happened, aren't happening elsewhere?

And as I said, the majority of child sexual abuse--much like rape and abuse of adults--is done within families or by people known to the perpetrator. Statistically, very few of those cases ever see the inside of a courtroom.

It's obvious we'll never convince each other, so I don't see any point in continuing this thread.

Best wishes, and hopefully someday you'll understand what I've been trying to say.

[NoOneMan]

211. So we have a dog rape culture too?

And no, I don't think we do

[thucythucy]

212. And no, I don't think you're interested in discussion.

I just came across you in another thread where you respond to a post with links, where it was obvious you hadn't read any. Just snark, repeating the same tired points you're flogging here.

Bye.

[NoOneMan]

214. I just posted a link to an article about a dog rape

I didn't need a nuanced response. We do not have a dog rape culture any more than we have a child rape culture

[ljm2002]

138. Yes, it only happens for the rich...

...but a judge would not make such a decision without some level of cultural acceptance for it.

BTW I agree, this is a case that primarily demonstrates the disgustingly unequal justice system we have for the rich vs. the rest of us. But it also contributes to rape culture.

Also BTW, saying there is a "rape culture" does not mean that most people subscribe to it; only that it exists and may condone or tolerate rape in one way or another.

[boston bean]

167. One name

Woody Allen

Go back and read through the threads on that and how the victim was described and dragged through the mud. That ought to tell you all you ought to know.

[NoOneMan]

168. You mean the rich famous guy?

I mean, he doesn't have the money a Du Pont heir has, but he is ever more popular.

[boston bean]

170. I am talking about the defense of that puke, here on DU

and how the victim was dragged through the mud.

That is the culture being discussed, that you so very much want to argue doesn't frickin exist.

[NoOneMan]

180. Im not arguing against the existence of rape culture

Huh?

What gave you that idea?

I don't think it has anything to do with the Du Pont guy getting off. I don't think it has much of anything to do with crimes against children

[boston bean]

181. You are being obtuse.

I've made my point, quite clearly.

[NoOneMan]

182. You've made a strawman

You are pretending I am saying something that I am not.


And regarding Woody Allen, a famous rich guy....some of his fan would love him if he killed their mom and urinated in their mouths. That doesn't mean we have a murder and urination culture. But you know that.

[boston bean]

187. You don't think this happens to victims of the middle class, the poor?

We certainly do read about the cases of the rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening to victims of every economic group.

Children called liars. Children told to keep quiet. Children told they will ruin their family. Few prosecutions.

Oh no, there is no reason in the culture that allows that to happen, nope..... According to you, only.

[NoOneMan]

191. I think that as a general trend, we aint to keen on child rapists

[boston bean]

193. You have a very very limited view of what victims face

in seeking justice, and in reporting these crimes. Which makes it easier for the perpetrators.

That's about all I can say.

That doesn't mean I think you or most people are keen on child rape.

[NoOneMan]

204. If we aren't keen on child rape, maybe there isn't a child rape culture

[boston bean]

205. Because someone doesn't condone molestation, incest, rape

doesn't mean that the culture that makes it prevalent, or difficult to prosecute doesn't exist.

[NoOneMan]

206. And just because its not always easy to prosecute, doesn't mean there is some cultural reason

[Niceguy1]

177. india has a rape culture

The US does not. Nobody Likes rapists here, they even have to go into protection in prison. And afterwards they are shunned for life.

[NoOneMan]

178. Even in India, men goto jail for raping 3-Year old children

Last edited Sun Mar 30, 2014, 10:57 PM - Edit history (1)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhopal/Man-gets-life-term-for-raping-3-year-old-disabled-daughter/articleshow/30585600.cms

[nomorenomore08]

232. What you say is very likely true of the stereotypical "dragged into the bushes" sort of rapist.

But in cases where the victim knows the perpetrator - which are the majority - the perp is frequently defended by friends etc. while the victim's character is questioned. Just look at how many people stuck up for the Steubenville rapists, to name one particularly appalling example. And I highly doubt that that case was an aberration within small-town America - other than, perhaps, the fact that the perps were actually convicted. Without blatant video evidence, they likely would have been acquitted.

If nothing else, people are far too quick to disbelieve a victim when the perp is supposedly a "good guy."

[stevenleser]

215. I dont think the mental illness of pedophilia has anything to do with rape culture anymore than

it has to do with the LGBT community. Its a separate thing, a mental illness.

[Lunacee_2013]

222. Yes, rape culture is a part of it.

Just look at all the under aged girls who have been "slut shamed" on line. Some were harassed so badly that they committed suicide.

Look at the jokes that are made when a boy is raped by a female teacher. "He's lucky" or "where was she when I was a teen" are the usual.

There are plenty of examples in the sports world of children being abused and people protecting the abuser. It also happens in the church.

[Gravitycollapse]

226. This isn't a yes or no question. Rape culture does not need to account for all rapes to be real.

[Hippo_Tron]

229. No, but Rape culture is to rapists as the Catholic Church was to pedophile priests...

Both are responsible for creating an environment where people can abuse others and not face consequences.

[cui bono]

234. You've answered your own question in your OP.

It's clearly not punished severely since that DuPont scumbag just got no jail time for raping his 3 year old daughter.

[NoOneMan]

240. Or rich people aren't punished severely because they are rich

And this isn't an example of rape culture whatsoever, but a two tiered justice system.


FYI, this judge sentenced plenty of rapist to jail. From what I can tell, this is the first Du Pont rapist she has dealt with