What does a world without rape culture look like?

[CFLDem]

Is it even imaginable or attainable?

How would it affect the male/female sexual dynamic?

Would it mean that playing 'hard to get' would go away?

Where exactly do the boundaries lie? If the boundaries are personal, how do we define them universally?

[seabeyond]

1. well, when as you state a young mans libido is out of control, hence unable to control and the young

men that do control their libidos are dorks, per your accessment

and you are not out of highschool yet.....

cfrl, over the months you have been here you have had a lot of smart people give you lots and lots of info, trying to guide and educate. and you yourself just said you and others your age cannot be educated. so why the hell are you asking this question to waste everyones time. you do not care.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

11. I don't know from 'dorks'

but I do think a young male's libido is a far stronger influence on his actions than a lot of people give it credit for. When folks talk about 'thinking with your little head, not your big one', it's not that far off the mark for many teen boys. Which, to my mind, says we've GOT to start educating boys about consent and thinking of women as full-fledged human beings BEFORE the hormones start raging, and not simply leave their middle and high school actions up to hormones, peer pressure, and crappy rape culture songs and movies that tell him the path to sexual gratification lies in sexual aggressiveness and assault.

Changing the 'now' is a lot tougher than changing the future by educating tomorrow's culture creators.

[seabeyond]

18. i think by promoting the male sexuality thru the penis being its own identity with a brain, lol is

part of the problem. a guy wants it and all of society is talking about his oh so powerful sexuality that he cannot control, what do you expect. i have all my life watched boys this age well able to control their libido. what am i getting wrong?

and why do we ignore a girls libido at all cost. it is all about the guy. then we wonder when the guys act like it is all about them.

you do not think that sends a pretty bad message to the boys?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

36. Well, obviously, both genders should be getting an

earlier and more complete education on consent, relationships, and intimacy. But if the goal is preventing rape, then it seems like you might want to focus more of the education on the gender responsible for committing the vast majority of rapes.

And btw, all those guys 'controlling their libido'? Probably masturbating like mad all the time you're not watching them. All while being told by many parents and religious figures that masturbation is a sin and something disgusting, which sets them up for a different set of warped ideas later in life. So if by 'controlling' you simply mean 'not raping women', then yeah, ok, they're 'controlling' it. Your mileage may vary, depending on just how much testosterone is coursing through each individual, of course.

Teen neural structures haven't finished developing in the teens, but the endocrine system is going full blast. (As an added bonus, men also get the joy of losing frontal lobe neurons faster as they age than women - the area of the brain that controls judgment. Now couple this with the fact that the vast majority of politicians are old men...kinda makes you wonder a bit why politics is generally such a mess...)

[seabeyond]

39. hey dude....

And btw, all those guys 'controlling their libido'? Probably masturbating like mad all the time you're not watching them.

not gender specific.

truly. it is not. and that is where we can start with our education. the boys arent all that. girls are that too. not a gift or giving it away. more of an allowed balance instead of pure hype.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

42. Heh.

Sure. But I can't speak from experience as a girl

And I think the notion of 'virginity' is overrated as well. It's merely a boundary condition, the 'first' time. But every single episode of sexual intimacy should be the result of a reasoned, shared decision on the part of each participant, from the first time to the last.

[seabeyond]

47. that is my point. the story telling has to change. just your perspective

cannot be the only one out there, talked about and celebrated as the be all end all. and doing the exactly opposite with our girls sexuality. we create this we live.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

57. I'm pretty sure I never said mine had to be.

Simply putting my own experience out there does nothing to preclude the experience of anyone else being put forth. I'm not censoring any female viewpoint. I'm not even dominating the conversation. Merely adding one extra thread to the tapestry. But don't worry. I'll simply stop posting comments on rape culture, since I don't fit the established site orthodoxy 100%. There are plenty of other worthwhile topics to pay attention to onsite.

[seabeyond]

66. Or, lol, do not be so sensitive. I was not saying you personally

And I was exploring thought. I have appreciated your posts. Just not totally agreeing and shifting a bit in another direction for different perspective

I have been trying to get off du for hours. Now I am posting on a little phone so will probably be my last post.

All if us, and I meAn all of us need to shift the story. Not grandiose male sexuality to be all that the boy is and not ignore or hide girl sexuality to the point it is giving and a gift. I think when we normalize the two sexuality a bit we all will be more healthy

[MissMillie]

143. Rape is not about sex

It's about violence.


That whole libido argument is bogus.

[leftstreet]

146. +1

Thank you

One of the creepiest things about the rape culture discussions here is seeing how often threads are subtly hijacked for the sole purpose of linking sex with rape

Very

[Cleita]

152. +10

There have been studies about this in the past. Do you know of any recent ones so this bogus argument can be put to rest?

[KittyWampus]

2. I'll go a bit further > what does a world without an accepted Culture of Violence look like?

[CFLDem]

4. That is a pretty good extension.

I would argue that the culture of accepted violence is at the heart of rape culture, amongst many other societal ills.

And that this culture arises out of the the tribalism that exists due to limited resources.

[KittyWampus]

9. That is what I believe as well.

[get the red out]

151. This

Violence is at the heart of this entire discussion.

[seabeyond]

3. and it hits me. your 'hard to get' no means yes??? fuckin for real? tell me with men being

out of control you are not now throwing in "'hard to get' " no means yes....

cause again, in this post, you would be advocating... fuckin pushing.... rape.

so PLEASE clarify.

[CFLDem]

5. Well Sea,

since you are clearly not in high school yet, it means flirting.

And if you are in high school, you should know better.

😉

[seabeyond]

7. i want to know. when you say "hard to get" are you talking no means yes. simple enough.

clarify

[CFLDem]

12. No

I mean literally playing hard to get.

What you are inferring is rape, plain and simple.

Now please erect your strawmen on someone else's hill, we're trying to have a conversation here.

[seabeyond]

14. the playing hard to get, no means yes is very common. especially with pua and mra

[CFLDem]

16. Sea

Please take your slander somewhere else.

Unless you really enjoy your timeouts. In that case, please continue. Be sure to use extra colorful language, too, so we don't waste the jury's time on nuances.

[seabeyond]

17. are you saying i slander you if i discuss pua and mra???? no. i will not take my statement that

playing hard to get, no means yes is very much a pua and mra talking point.

hence, me asking for clarification from you

[CFLDem]

19. You know exactly what you are doing.

We are trying to investigate what a world without rape culture entails so that we may better focus our efforts.

Please stay on that track please. Since you are obsessed with this aspect, what do you think flirting looks like in a non-rape culture world?

[seabeyond]

22. yes. i did need clarification of the "playing hard to get".

i am certainly not playing it out with you, lol. you are a kid. lol. but... i have never had any trouble flirting, kinda easy and a way to be, without feeling the need to be submissive or denigrate myself for a guys entertainment.

fliritn should have NOTHING to do with the rape culture and if your flirting does involve getting of or condoning, embracing or excusing rape, then.... wow. again. wtf???

[seabeyond]

26. to tuesday cause you self deleted. and i posted to you on your delete.

explain to me what FLIRTING has to do with RAPE culture? please. cause again, i am right back to asking this poster, wtf???? clarification.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. Yeah, good luck with all this. Stick a fork in me cause I am done.

Putting in a movie and enjoying my Life in The Real World. Life is good, sea

[seabeyond]

34. it sooo is. with you woman. i am off.... luvs you too. nt

[Prophet 451]

68. Query: What does "pua" mean?

Never seen that term before.

[seabeyond]

70. Pick up artist... Google. Interesting group

[Prophet 451]

72. Oh, *them*

Yeah, familiar with them and their particular lunacy. Just hadn't seen it referred to that way before. Thanks for the clarification.

[rrneck]

73. "Pick Up Artist" I think. nt

[thucythucy]

126. I guess I'm a little confused as well.

When I hear the phrase "playing hard to get" what I get is the mental image of someone who really is interested in sex, but pretends that she or he isn't. Hence "playing."

It seems to me that this can very easily get subsumed into a rapist's mindset, as in "she keeps saying no, but she's just 'playing hard to get.'" In other words, "Her 'no' really means 'yes'--I just have to keep at it."

You don't see how this might be a problem?

Really, I thought "playing hard to get" was pretty much old school. I mean, who pretends to not want sex, if they're with someone they like and they're horny? What's the point? Unless we're talking role playing, which is a whole other thing. But "playing hard to get?" No offense, but it just seems so 1950s.

Truly, no snark intended. I'm just puzzled.

[Scootaloo]

30. High school? Is that where you are?

'Cause in the adult world, "no" means "no," and continued pestering isn't "flirting," it's harassment.

Frankly it should be that way in high school, too.

[CFLDem]

35. No the high school thing is part of Sea's slander campaign.

I'm currently working on my Master's.

And I agree, no means no, and there's a clear line for harassment/stalking.

[seabeyond]

37. i asked. he said old enough to rent a car. what is that, 16 or 18. still highschool. nt

[snooper2]

140. You have to be 21 to rent a car, unless you have a special arrangement

My first telecom job I was 20, and had to travel all over the country doing installs all the time..

Awesome getting paid for flying around on planes LOL-

The company had a special arrangement with Avis so the three of us 20 year olds could rent cars from them and the company had to pay for special insurance. After a while I learned you could usually get a free upgrade if you flirt a little

[seabeyond]

141. h. good and bad. consoling thinking highschool, boys that were responsible/respectful are dorks...

that makes a little more sense adding in immaturity.

not consoling to know adult... over 21, that there are some men that profess a young man that has integrity, to others with respect is considered a dork. and like a mature respectful young man would give a shit that this person thought he a dork.

thanks.

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. Like any number of aboriginal cultures prior to Western contact.

Or for that matter like the ancient Celts in pre-Christian Europe (where women were very much not subordinate to men but were frequently leaders and fought in battle).

What you refer to as the "male/female sexual dynamic" is very significantly the result of the fusion of Judeo-Christian morality (and its attendant ideas of female submission) and the Germanic custom of patrilineal inheritance that came to define European/Western culture in the post-Roman Middle Ages.

[seabeyond]

8. damn you are smart. i love a good brain.

[CFLDem]

10. Intriguing

It is always fun to imagine alternative histories. Kind of reminds me of that family guy episode where the modern world has flying cars and whatnot because it wasn't held back by judeo-Christian culture.

Which brings to mind, is rape culture an inherent part of judeo-christian culture?

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. Judeo-Christian culture views women as chattels.

The answer to that is "yes". David and Bathsheba? Moses telling the Israelites to slaughter the Midianites and kill all the men but keep the virgin girls for themselves? Rape culture is inherently part of Judeo-Christian culture.

[cally]

55. look to current cultures that are matrileneal

Rape culture does not exist. There is one in South America where the women are the ones to walk forward and greet visitors before the men. All property and status is matrileneal.

[seabeyond]

41. and then go over, over a couple decades of freedom and financial independence, women say no to

submission and the mens world falls apart.

ya. we get it. men WANT women to be submissive to make their lives all that. biological? when they had the power, control and dominance.

now? no. and they are throwing fits.

btw... how many times have you been kicked off today?

[antigone382]

61. Just to clarify: are you stating it is the natural order for women to submit to men?

I just want to know precisely where you stand on that.

[seabeyond]

75. 3-3 on your bullshit post. Should be an easy hide. Rw crap, garbage

[CFLDem]

82. This says it all about DU3

Antigone: 61. Just to clarify: are you stating it is the natural order for women to submit to men?

Nemed: Yes it is.

And it withstands a jury.

Wow. I hope the admins see this.

Good night everyone!

[rrneck]

77. Um, no.

The natural order of things is not female submission. Not at all, not even a little bit. Not even in the movie 300.

All the upper body strength in the world won't birth no babies. Men and women both contribute to the survival of the species equally but in different ways. Submission is not genetically determined. Period.

[rrneck]

94. How does your reply square with the previous one?

antigone382 (3,557 posts)
61. Just to clarify: are you stating it is the natural order for women to submit to men? I just want to know precisely where you stand on that.

Nemed (8 posts)
64. Of course it is If it wasn't, Mother Nature herself would have given women more upper body strength, faster reflexes, better hand-eye coordination, etc.

It's the same in the animal kingdom, as others in this thread have observed.

Nemed (8 posts)
85. Equal but different Equal but different. Equal, but different.

Your responses are incoherent. Submission and equality are, like, not the same. Want to try again? It'll be fun.

[rrneck]

100. Men were designed to lead.

How are men designed to lead? Some links to research to support that claim would be more helpful than you know.

[CreekDog]

78. .

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Sun Mar 30, 2014, 09:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Of course it is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4756375

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster states outright in this post and others that it is natural for women to be submissive to men.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 30, 2014, 09:22 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Read the thread. Hide
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This person is wrong. So wrong that I wish he could meet my beautiful 6 foot tall niece who throws shotput and plays the bari sax. She has strength, intelligence, ability and could survive and prosper in any situation.
But people are wrong here at DU all of the time (even me, gasp!). Just because a person makes stupid assumptions is no reason to hide him. Keep him out in the daylight and school him.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Nah. Don't have to put up with this crap on day 1 from this poster. Also, I thank the alerter for informing MIRT, because you just did.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see no personal attack here, just an opinion that the person who sent the alert disagrees with.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't agree with that poster and he is probably a troll, but I don't see where he violated any rules here. If he makes a pattern of just agitating, then I'm sure he won't last long here.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Juror 2 can't see why we can't hide sexist posts.
Juror 4 thinks the community standards only include personal attacks (obviously hasn't lost any precious time reading the rules...)
Juror 5 thinks it's a troll, thinks the post is wrong, but can't see why ANY of that would be reason to hide...reason to ban, yes, reason to hide, NO?

(and x2 for #5)

[seabeyond]

83. Thank you creek. You are there.... Always. Appreciate. Nt

[Tsiyu]

80. I say that we lose a few

we gain a few ....trolls that is.

Don't feed them.

But it's fun sometimes. In this case, there is nought but a knot in the cerebral regions...best to let the pitiful thing run about for a minute....

[seabeyond]

62. Natural order if mra or Eco psych fan, ya. And those two are about the same. Who were you?

[Prophet 451]

71. I think that's unfair to EvoPsych

Granted, EvoPsych is largely speculative but it's appropriation by MRAs is largely a case of them reading what they want into the research.

[seabeyond]

74. You really validated what I said. It is used by non religious to control, dominate women

Yes, it is putting out poor studies and the. Mra'rs using it as tools to denigrate and subjugate women. Most of us women simply are not gonna lay down passive allowing another controlling religion cause men feel the need to dominate women. Even with a poor interpreted "science"

[Prophet 451]

76. Well, it's not my area

I'm about a year out on my Psych degree (out of six) and my area is Fornensic Psychology but EvoPsych researchers would argue that it's not their studies at fault, it's the way MRAs interpret them. I think the difference is important. We don't blame Darwin for white supremacists using a misinterpretation of evolutionary theory to claim black people are inferior.

[seabeyond]

79. I am on my phone. I am not doing the linking. Scientists, biological scientists debunk ego psych.

It is fail. There are many ways the studies are a fail and it is discussed often. One is they take what today is and the tel the story from beginning of time, guesses and making shit up to make it fit

[Prophet 451]

81. I would agree with that

EvoPsych is, at best, wildly speculative and much of the theories amount to a wild ass guess.

[seabeyond]

90. Ya. That. Phone, I can't do much. Nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

102. FYI

I was juror #1

On Sun Mar 30, 2014, 10:09 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's the natural order
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4756200

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

So he is saying that by their very nature, women are inferior to men. I shouldn't be surprised anymore to see this kind of stuff here but I am.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 30, 2014, 10:19 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I'm not sure if this poster is arguing that women are inferior to men. But they are clearly arguing that male dominance is nature. Clearly this is not an acceptable point of view here on DU
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Huh, I didn't know there were any real Neanderthals left. Or that they could type.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think he is referring specifically to women. I think he/she is making a macro-economic argument. I could be wrong on that, but the way this reads and going through the posts I think they are making a broad argument about capitalism, not women.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I read what the poster wrote, and it's not what the alerter claimed the poster wrote. I don't like being pushed around like that, or seeing the jury system abused.

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No, that's not what the poster is saying at all...

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[cyberswede]

106. "I've never been kicked off"...yet

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. In parts of pre-Christian Europe and in some aboriginal cultures.

We know enough about the ancient Celts from Roman sources to know that women frequently took part in battle and acted as war leaders. There are very few documented instances of women in battle in post-Roman Europe.

And some aboriginal cultures prior to Western contact were quite significantly differently organised; see for instance the Iroquois, or the Hopi. Not all aboriginal cultures were fundamentally patriarchal. Assuming universality for a particular social organisation and the attitudes that tend to go along with it is a mistake.

[Spider Jerusalem]

51. Or they're not so "extremely submissive" as you may imagine.

Fun fact: part of the reason for the declining birthrate and declining marriage rates in Japan? Women refusing to accept the idea that having children should mean their careers are over and their job is now to raise a family.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. Nonsense.

The UK has a similar population density to Japan (and has a higher birth rate than the US).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/21/why-japanese-women-are-choosing-careers-sex-bbc2_n_4136580.html

[Prophet 451]

69. My Lord, I hadn't considered that

No, I'm not taking the piss. That confluence of factors had literally never occurred to me before. And I'm a Luciferian Satanist, I'm well aware of the faults of Judeo-Christian morality.

[Squinch]

86. Also the north eastern Native American tribes did not have rape as

part of their cultures when Europeans arrived. Europeans were astonished that rape was not even committed on enemies during war.

I don't know about Midwest or Western tribes. For all I know it is true of them too.

Now, after exposure to RAPE CULTURE, there is a higher incidence of rape of Native American women than the national average.

[CFLDem]

93. I'm skeptical.

Care to provide substantiation for this claim?

[Squinch]

99. It is from

"Before 1776: Life in the American Colonies" by Robert Allison of Harvard. A fabulous Great Courses course, highly recommended. I happen to be working through it now and just learned this.

It comes from the fact that war among the native tribes was primarily for the purpose of getting captives to add to the tribe to replace family members lost to disease or misfortune. They took the captives and adopted them into their families. The idea of rape during war was abhorrent to them because, for all they knew, they were raping a new sister or daughter.

Here's another reference: http://www.historiann.com/2008/04/07/rape-still-a-powerful-weapon-of-war/

And google is your friend. I'm sure you can find more.

[CFLDem]

101. Sounds like an interesting chapter in history.

[Squinch]

105. Astonishing. We were all taught "Plymouth Rock" and then immediately after that "Revolution." But

between them was 150 years that included the bloodiest war in US history (King Philip's War), a period where Europeans were a weak player in a complicated native political arena, the invention of capital and the corporation, the social and economic change of the sugar trade that make the Industrial Revolution look like a contract negotiation, an earlier revolution against England where the English administration was jailed and then stuck on a boat and told not to come back...

Amazing stories!

[Prophet 451]

136. And...

...it all happened in the immediate aftermath of a plague that must have seemed like armageddon to the Native American people. It apparently wiped out 96% of humans in Mass. alone and is reckoned to have killed 90% of the Native population all told. By the time Columbus turned up, it was like something from The Walking Dead but without zombies.

[Squinch]

147. Can you imagine? It was the end of the world, for a whole culture full of people.

And at the risk of sounding trollish, which I sincerely do not mean to do, it might be a source of white privilege: I read some sermon from the time (and I don't think I could find it again, so I can't back this up with a source or link) but it talked all about how God had cleared the land for the arriving Europeans, scattering anyone who was in their way, so their "holy" experiment of Puritanism could take place.

Possible roots for Manifest Destiny, which was an infinitely sucky concept.

[Tux421]

115. Ah right

So the Native Americans didn't rape anyone....they just kidnapped women from other tribes and "adopted" them into their families as wives.

The logical contortions some people will go through to paint Native Americans as "noble savages" and Europeans as the villains all the time is amazing.

I'm sure Thomas Jefferson thought Sally Hemings was one of the family too!

[Squinch]

116. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay. It should help with those reading skills.

[Tux421]

117. Correct me if I'm wrong

But you said the Native American tribes did not have rape as part of their culture when Europeans arrived, even during war. You then went on to say that they went to war to capture women from other tribes, which they then "adopted" into their families as wives, which is basically another way of describing rape. Or is it somehow not rape because they waited until the fighting was over to divide the "spoils of war" amongst themselves? Or is kidnapping women from other tribes somehow OK if your tribe is low in numbers due to disease?

What did I miss?

[Squinch]

119. I said north eastern tribes didn't. And then I gave my sources for that information.

I would recommend you do some reading about it before you get mad at me, and before you draw conclusions that are not accurate about what was meant by "adopted."

Have a nice stay.

[Tux421]

123. Oh come on

Are you that naive? What do you think was meant by "adopted"? You think the women just willingly jumped into the arms of their loving "liberators"?

I've already done some reading, and I know how it worked. People like you just like to whitewash Native American history, and portray them as being more peaceful and noble than they really were. I suppose it's a necessary psychological defense mechanism for a lot of people. How else can they justify their hatred of Europeans, if they can't convince themselves that Europeans were somehow worse than everyone else?

[CreekDog]

124. as offensive as your post is, juries won't hide it

a small, but decisive number of jurors only hide when there are swear words, so if one can manage to post bigotry using Oxford English, it will probably get left alone.

[CreekDog]

128. what is your degree in?

[CreekDog]

131. i'm just wondering where you learned something as backwards as:

"bigotry" does not mean "offensive"

[Squinch]

149. Just a guess but I imagine we won't be

bothered for long by our angry new friend.

Sadly you are right about juries.

[Squinch]

155. Tux has been tombstoned: previously banned. I was going to ask him who he used to be.

Had a very familiar way about him.

[Squinch]

142. You haven't read enough. And in your case, ignorance doesn't seem to be bliss, because, bro,

you seem mad.

Buzz off.

[Prophet 451]

134. Just a clarification

I'm sure I'm just being dense but you're not saying that rape was actually unknown among the Native Americans at the time, right? Just that it was a relatively rare crime, correct? As I said, I'm sure this is just me being dense but I've learned that if I'm unclear on something, it's best to just ask for clarity.

[Squinch]

144. I am saying that, in the north eastern tribes, it simply wasn't used. There are scores

of captive accounts from the 1600's, and the warfare with the natives in New England was very well documented. The women they captured simply were not raped. And there is no account of any rape observed or heard of among the natives by the captives or those who dealt with the natives. Nada.

And, contrary to what the angry newbie is insisting, the adoption wasn't just a fancy name for rape. The women who were adopted were adopted as sisters or children, NOT "wives." They then had all the rights of native born tribes people, and married or not according to the same customs as everyone else in the tribe.

And again, I am talking about New England tribes.

ETA: this is not to say they were all sweetness and light. The captive accounts are FULL of accounts of killing babies and new mothers and the injured or sick so they don't slow overland travel, bashing people's heads in, and beating the prospective "adoptees" with sticks in gauntlets as a form of welcome. But no rape.

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. It's convenient that all cultures idealized as exemplary of harmony and tranquility...

... left no written record.

They did leave lots of cannibalized bones though.

[CreekDog]

129. thanks Tux

[Prophet 451]

135. Go back far enough and that's true of virtually every culture

We like to imagine cannibalization was some rare and terrible thing but the fact is, it's somethign which people occasionally had to resort to when times were especially hard. Also, we don't know the circumstances in which that occured. For all we know, that could have been their way of honouring the dead.

[NoOneMan]

13. A world without "rape culture" would be free of pedophiles!

If we hated child rapists even more, they just wouldn't exist!

[bettyellen]

23. do you enjoy saying ridiculous things?

what is your point exactly?

[NoOneMan]

25. Did you miss today's circus?

[bettyellen]

27. Yes, Why? Are you the head clown?

[NoOneMan]

32. Basically, yes

Today a rich as fuck Du Pont heir got off for raping his 3-year old daughter. Either this is proof of a 2-tier justice system, or its proof of "rape culture". Funny thing is, the people who think its all about "rape culture" don't want to so much as mention 1) he is a Du Pont heir, and 2) all sorts of child rapists get tossed in jail all the time

[Prophet 451]

138. A bit of both, TBH

I think it's mostly proof of a two-tier justice system but I'm prepared to accept that rape culture (a term I usually dislike) played some role in it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. ... lol ...

thanks I needed that

[Squinch]

87. Yes he does. That's his point. Sad, but true.

[LittleBlue]

24. Despite thousands of years trying to stop murders

there are still murders. And people still justify murder. Look at Trayvon, he was blamed for his own murder.

What is called "rape culture" is just the human drive to commit certains crimes that have plagued us since the beginning of mankind, and will continue to plague us for the rest of our existence. Asking why we can't stop "rape culture" is the same as asking why we can't stop committing crimes altogether (and justifying those crimes).

We can have varied degrees of success, but to describe a crime as part of a culture that can be ended is a fundamental misunderstanding of human beings. Lofty ideals tell us that our superior ability to reason makes humans superior to animals. Having the ability to reason does not make someone reasonable.

[CFLDem]

28. As noted above

I think we can tie rape culture to the culture of violence that also encourages murder and other crimes of power.

So in that case, perhaps all we can hope for is the minimization of rape culture.
😒

[LittleBlue]

43. I think it goes deeper than culture. Saw a nature show

a few months ago that showed a female lion straying too far into another pride's territory. The lioness was chased down by the much larger males, who forced her to the ground with the threat of violence. The narrator said that "having his way with her" was the price she had to pay in order to escape alive. It was plainly a rape, quite shocking to watch.

This behavior crosses species. We didn't teach culture to lions any more than they taught us. I think rape culture is the inaccurate description of something else, far more insidious and deeper within us, and impossible to stamp out.

[CFLDem]

46. I suspect you are correct. nt

[boston bean]

108. OMFG, is about all I can say...

but lions... lions... and tigers and bears... and don't forget bonobo's.

[seabeyond]

139. so... it is biology that makes men rape. damn... pathetic. not surprised. consistent

[BainsBane]

38. Men wouldn't use terms like "hard to get" in a world without rape culture

They would understand that no means no and consent must be enthusiastic. They wouldn't see women as prey to be conquered but instead as friends and partners with full rights to express their desires.

Here are some steps to do away with rape culture. All it requires is caring enough about rape victims to take a few steps to diminish a culture than enables rapists and blames victims. m .
http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture

[CFLDem]

40. But then why do women play hard to get?

I know several women who have admitted to using such tactics to keep the guy hanging on edge and to see how hard the guy is willing to work for them.

How do we educate women that such tactics only plays into rape culture?

[BainsBane]

44. Are you talking about sex or dating?

The fact is men like a challenge. Most men devalue women who they think are easy. There are all kinds of penalties in this society for women who like sex. Since women don't want to be devalued or cast aside, they often make a point of waiting to have sex.

If you think a woman who tells you she doesn't want to have sex is "playing hard to get," that's a rather serious problem on your part. She says no, that's it. You can either wait until she's ready or find someone else.

[CFLDem]

48. Oh no I was talking about dating.

I emphatically agree with you on the no means no part.

[BainsBane]

49. Cool

The rest of my post stands then. I think you know it's true that men devalue women they think are easy. It's also a weird thing where some will start to lose interest as soon as the woman becomes interested. Of course these are men women shouldn't waste their time on, but it can take time to learn that lesson. People seem intent on making the whole thing harder than it needs to be.

[CFLDem]

53. Well people do always want what they can't have.

I also think it's because people are trying to protect themselves from rejection.

But the dating game also adds to the thrill when you find someone likes you back.

[BainsBane]

54. You just answered your own question

Men do it too. It just doesn't involve waiting for sex for men. It's manifested in other ways. That has to do with the sexist culture that tells women they are sluts if they have sex like men do, and men don't usually want women they perceive that way as partners.

[jamzrockz]

59. I think the vast majority of men

understand when a woman is playing hard to get and when they are done with you. For one, they stop picking up the phone, the voice and facial expression changes. I think playing hard is just as vital as an animal's mating dance. It gauges the man's level of desire for the woman

[enough]

65. It's not just no-means-no. There's also the possibility that she doesn't yet know exactly what she

wants in any given situation. She's still figuring it out. And if the man is interested in anything other than just the "one thing," he will also be figuring it out simultaneously.

That's why I agree with your original idea that the term "hard to get' would not be used in a world without rape culture. In that world, all human (including sexual) interactions would presume that both parties are human and both constantly experiencing all the ambivalence and change that humanity entails.

In fact, the idea that "men are only interested in one thing" is also part of rape culture. It is the other side of the coin of the notion of women "playing hard to get."

[BainsBane]

67. "In fact, the idea that "men are only interested in one thing" is also part of rape culture."

Excellent point, and a good way to show how rape culture hurts men as well.

[boston bean]

63. playing "hard to get"

WTF?

[CFLDem]

84. Yes Boston Bean

It's a thing.

[Ohio Joe]

88. And what does it have to do with rape culture?

That is the WTF.

[CFLDem]

91. That is one of the aspects here to discuss.

I would wager some other members think it is something impacted by rape culture.

[Ohio Joe]

95. You brought it up... How do you fit it into rape culture?

Seriously... WTF?

[CFLDem]

98. How does it not fit into rape culture?

A man continuing to advance despite a woman's initial rebuff to dating is arguably one of the most egregious examples patriarchal entitlement that makes the cornerstone of rape culture.

[Ohio Joe]

107. Asking a woman out more then one time is not a cornerstone of rape culture...

I have no idea what the hell you are thinking and it is probably best I don't.

[CFLDem]

109. It is if she flat out rejects the initial advance.

This is why we need better education about rape culture.

[Ohio Joe]

110. And what? Playing hard to get is the encouragement? Women are making men go to far?

Someone stop me... I really don't want to go through this crap yet again today.

[CFLDem]

112. No

Rape culture emboldens men to go too far.

In a world without rape culture, men would accept rejection and move on to greener pastures instead of feeling entitled to second try.

[Ohio Joe]

113. Again... Asking a woman out more then once has nothing to do with rape culture...

I'm so done with this game.

[CFLDem]

114. And yet I have clearly demonstrated that it does.

To which you side step by reverting to your original argument.

[bettyellen]

97. You brought it up, so you implied a connection. So spit it out already.....

enough of these bullshit games. Explain your OP claiming a connection between the two.
Because if this isn't referring to PUA the "you know she wants it" argument, I don't know what it is.

[CFLDem]

92. Such as?

[Beringia]

104. Norman Lear had a sitcom with complete role reversal

It was interesting, but got very low ratings.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_That_Glitters_%28TV_series%29


All That Glitters is an American situation comedy television series by producer Norman Lear. It consisted of 65 episodes and aired between April 18 and July 15, 1977 in broadcast syndication. The show, a spoof of the soap opera format, depicted the trials and tribulations of a group of executives at the Globatron corporation. The twist of the series was that it was set within a world of complete role-reversal: Women were the "stronger sex," the executives and breadwinners, while the "weaker sex" – the men – were the secretaries or stay-at-home househusbands. Men were often treated as sex objects.

[bettyellen]

111. personal boundaries cannot, by definition be universal. they are not always the same for one person

do you even understand what they are? it seems you do not.

[Starry Messenger]

118. wtf does "hard to get" have to do with rape.

Rape is a hate attack against someone, not sex.

[CFLDem]

120. Rape culture encompasses all aspects surrounding rape

including overzealous suitors who think no means anything other than no.

[Starry Messenger]

121. They aren't suitors, they are rapists.

[CFLDem]

137. Finally someone gets it!

[Niceguy1]

154. it has nothing to do with

It in the normal context. For women playing hard to get is like a cat *the woman) toying with a mouse (the men)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

125. I think part of sex ed should be a class on saying no, and understanding the word no

Perhaps there is a communication problem. Some people aren't saying it firmly enough, and some people might not understand the word no. Perhaps the class could be titled, "What does the word NO mean?"

[davidn3600]

132. And why do romance novels that women obsess over get a pass?

The "bodice rippers" that usually have borderline rape in them or have love triangles.

Look how popular 50 Shades of Grey are with women. Men are not buying this rape fantasy junk.

[Squinch]

150. You're going to say, "What about Elizabeth Hasselback??!11??1" again, aren't you?

[nomorenomore08]

156. "They do it too!" is not a valid defense. For anyone over the age of 6, at least. n/t

[LadyHawkAZ]

148. A lot like what you'd get

if you put Mosuo culture in a bowl with an atheist meeting and a liberal helping of bonobos, and stirred vigorously.