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[darkangel218]

This message was self-deleted by its author (darkangel218) on Sun Apr 13, 2014, 01:49 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[snooper2]

1. I just posted that thread! Whats with all the Horse Metaphors!

greatness with timing!

[darkangel218]

2. You know, i alerted on your post when you made shit up about me.

You got lucky. I recommend you don't use personal attacks anymore , especially lies, to make a point.

[snooper2]

7. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse

[FSogol]

3. Acupuncture and diet are not forms of homeopathy.

From Random House dictionary:

Homeopathy
ho·me·op·a·thy
noun
the method of treating disease by drugs, given in minute doses, that would produce in a healthy person symptoms similar to those of the disease (opposed to allopathy ).



Homeopathy is woo, no high horse required.

[maddezmom]

5. Thank you

And agree it is woo.

[darkangel218]

9. And thats wrong. Why?

Because a homeopathic care giver can provide acupuncture and diet therapy.

Dont let Big Pharma blind you.

[FSogol]

17. Random House, not big pharma.

[Atman]

22. Yes, it's WRONG.

Diet therapy and acupuncture are diet therapy and acupuncture. They have nothing to do with homeopathy. They might be adjunct treatments, but they are NOT homeopathy. Just as Whole Foods can sell organic produce, but that does not mean it is an organic produce store.

[MattBaggins]

88. Don't let your blind hatred of big pharma

cause you to turn off the critical thinking portion of your brain.

Take a few simple science courses at your local community college.

[tammywammy]

92. She's supposedly in school for nursing.

[Heddi]

134. Or graduated, even. She went from 1st semester to graduation in 9 months.

Maybe she got a Masters in Nursing over the weekend

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

139. I gotta say...

We had a few weeks of a class on things that I would generally call woo in the BSN program. Basically, what it came down to, per the instructor, was that if the placebo effect helps any given patient, use it. If they believe that their chronic pain is reduced by sniffing scented candles, let them sniff scented candles. Ditto most of the other stuff, even if double blind trials show no benefit to the general public. That and 'pick your battles'. Don't increase patients' stress levels by trying to dissuade them from any given 'woo' that A) wasn't harmful, and B) didn't stop them from also seeking actual medical help.

[trotsky]

155. Oh dear. n/t

[darkangel218]

172. Ha ha! how funny! lol

[Sissyk]

127. Wait!!

Didn't I read you are in nursing school? Moving to Alaska for some internship?

And you say something like "Don't let Big Pharma blind you"? What kind of medication to you plan on administering to your patients.

[eridani]

150. Not in any state with a competent provider directory

If a homeopathic caregiver gets training as an acupuncturist, then s/he becomes one.

[Zorra]

46. +1 nt

[progressoid]

65. I prefer this dramatization from Mitchell and Webb

[FSogol]

86. +1. LOL. n/t

[Historic NY]

106. +1

[sakabatou]

94. +1

[MostlyAmused]

4. Acupuncture and diet are not homeopathy, though.

The term has a specific meaning. http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/about-homeopathy/what-is-homeopathy/

"Home > About homeopathy > What is homeopathy?
Homeopathy is a system of medicine which involves treating the individual with highly diluted substances, given mainly in tablet form, with the aim of triggering the body’s natural system of healing. Based on their specific symptoms, a homeopath will match the most appropriate medicine to each patient."

[CreekDog]

140. i was gonna say

but i'm glad you did first!

[ForgoTheConsequence]

6. Eating a healthy diet isn't homeopathy.

It would help if everyone was on the same page with definitions.

[dionysus]

115. i am hoping she confused holistic with homeopathy re; dietary practices.

[Brickbat]

8. I would hope a nurse would know what homeopathy is.

[Vashta Nerada]

15. Ha!

[darkangel218]

18. I do too.

Stop being against natural remedies.

Unless you don't care about your fellow humans.

Who the fuck cares if the cure comes from a pill or a plant?? I surely don't!! Why do you?

Why so much animosity against natural cures????

[FSogol]

24. Natural cures aren't homeopathy. Did you read the definition? n/t

[darkangel218]

173. A lot of the alternative medicine incorporates self healing

And mind over body techniques. I know perfectly well how homeopathy is defined.

The point of my OP was not to stir chaos, it was to point out that alternative medicine and especially homeopathy can have positive outcomes. I never said it should replace traditional medicine.

[Brickbat]

25. Here, I'll spell it out for you.

Homeopathy is not "natural cures." It's the idea that "like cures like" and that diluting substances in water and drinking it will cure diseases.

[tammywammy]

26. Your OP and subsequent replies clearly indicate you do not know what "homeopathy" is.

It is not acupuncture or diet.

[Atman]

28. I don't see animosity against natural cures.

Homeopathy is not a "natural cure" by any stretch of the imagination. And diet therapy and acupuncture are not homeopathy. I've not read one single response dissing natural cures.

[eShirl]

30. natural remedies are great

placebos are great, too, but that doesn't make all placebos homeopathic

[FSogol]

36. especially ones involving whiskey.

[eShirl]

40. It's for medicinal purposes, I swear!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. The animosity is against the people pushing the "cures", not the "cures" themselves.

I don't bear any resentment towards homeopathically-prepared distilled water for not being able to cure illnesses - that would be dumb, it's an inanimate object, and it's not its fault it has no medicinal properties.

I *do* bear immense animosity to the quacks, frauds and fools who try to gull people into believing that it does, though.

Spreading misinformation is always a bad thing; spreading misinformation about something as important as what will and won't help the sick, when even a rudimentary understanding of science or a cursory study of the evidence will make it blatantly obvious that it's misinformation, is especially contemptible.

[NuclearDem]

32. No one's against "natural remedies" or whatever that means.

Willow bark and cannabis have demonstrated medicinal benefits, and they're plants.

Venus flytrap extract, on the other hand, has not been demonstrated to be an effective cancer treatment.

Bullshit remedies are bullshit remedies, and legitimate remedies are legitimate remedies, whether it's from plant extract or pills.

[MineralMan]

39. If you're talking about natural remedies, you're not

talking about homeopathy. Naturopathy is closer. You're confusing your terms, so what you're saying makes no sense at all.

Homeopathy is a theory and practice. It's not related to any other alternative medical concepts. It stands alone as a system.

Due to your confusion about what homeopathy is and is not, you're posted something that makes no sense.

A little research in advance of posting would be a good thing, I think.

[mr blur]

44. Homeopathy is NOT a "natural remedy" It isn't anything but bullshit.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/08/homeopathy-is-bunk-study-says

[SidDithers]

50. "Homeopathy is not about water"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4808262

That statement, right there, completely and totally demonstrates that you have no idea what homeopathy is.

Sid

[840high]

56. I have no animosity

to natural remedies. Have used many with good results.

[Vashta Nerada]

78. You need to get your money back from whatever school you went to.

[MattBaggins]

90. I am terrified if that one actually passed their boards.

[Vashta Nerada]

91. So am I.

[Heddi]

147. I don't think they did

This one can't even spell "breasts" correctly. Or pregnancy. Or Pap Smear.

Multiple times.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3946305

I mean, that's not just Nursing 101. That's not even Anatomy 101, or Biology 101.

Trust me. I'm an RN. Registered and licensed to practice in 5 states.

Skeptical nurse is skeptical.

[MNBrewer]

89. Even those natural remedies that work have a basis in reality

and are mediated by real chemical and biological interactions. Homeopathy is most certainly "woo".

[jmowreader]

122. Homeopathic cures come out of the fucking faucet!

There is not one Goddamn thing in any homeopathic preparation except water and blind faith.

Worse, there are Korsakoff dilutions...instead of mixing a litre of arnica water with 99 of regular water they dump out the 100 litre pot and fill it back up in hopes there a litre of the last batch stuck to the bottom of the pot.

[Gravitycollapse]

184. You really seriously don't know the definition of homeopathy.

So stop claiming you do.

[MineralMan]

10. Homeopathy has nothing to do with acupuncture.

It has nothing to do with diet, either.

I think you are confusing it with something else. I suggest googling the term.

[PoliticAverse]

11. Indeed, the 'placebo effect' is real. n/t

[NuclearDem]

12. The only perspective I'm open to is where the evidence leads.

And the evidence leads to homeopathy being, at best, no more effective than a placebo.

Anecdotal evidence is not on its own a legitimate reason to embrace ideas.

[Vashta Nerada]

13. Yes it is.

[jmowreader]

14. Acupuncture and diet are not homeopathy

[ChisolmTrailDem]

16. ...

[darkangel218]

19. Lol.. enjoy your drama pop corns.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

33. Actually, I was prepared to cheer for you against some posters that are bound to

show up in this thread that I despise because of the way they treat people, because of the way I've seen them treat you.

But now you can kiss my ass. Also, I take back my rec.

Oh, look, there's one now! Good luck.

[darkangel218]

175. I dont care if you rec my posts or not, nor do i care for your "cheers" lol

[cthulu2016]

20. That you don't know what Homeopathy is does not define the question for others

Homeopathy does not mean "alternative medicine," it means Homeopathy—in contemporary practice, the sales of distilled water and other completely inert ingredients as medicine.

Containing any active ingredient means something is not homeopathic.

Accupuncture and diet are most certainly not homeopathy.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. Your definition is also very incorrect. It's a word in English, we don't have to ponder

we can look to the dictionary which says

noun: homeopathy; the treatment of disease by minute doses of natural substances that in a healthy person would produce symptoms of disease.

So your assertion that having an active ingredient precludes homeopathic status is very specifically incorrect. I use the dictionary to determine what words mean. Is that 'woo' as well? Because the dictionary says 'woo' is a verb meaning to seek the affections of another, particularly with an eye toward romance or matrimony.

[arcane1]

69. When it is diluted to 10 to the 30th power

There is no longer any ingredient in there, active or not. Homeopaths believe the water retains a memory of the substance, and that the more dilute it is, the more potent it is.

In other words, it's a scam.

[cthulu2016]

84. Oh my... There is a reason we don't call a dictionary an encyclopedia.

My post did not offer a definition of homeopathy for you to contradict or support.

The word means, essentially, "like the disease," as the two roots of the word suggest, and was, back in the day, the practice of poisoning sick people on the theory that... hey, why not?

Surely something to defend if you fell like defending it (?) but, fortunately, not what homeopathy means today.

Though my post did not define homeopathy it did offer a description of what Homeopathy is, quote, "in contemporary practice" (those three words are also in the dictionary) and a statement that a contemporary homeopathic "medicine" has no active ingredients.

Which it doesn't. That is contemporary homeopathy.

But, of course, perhaps the utterly idiotic OP was written to defend the ancient practice of poisoning sick people, instead of the contemporary practice of selling them entirely fake medicine.

If the OP has a deep understanding of the history of homeopathy and was drawing on that knowledge in seeking to defend either the antique practice of poisoning sick people, or the modern practice of selling sick people fake medicine, then I was wrong.

[tammywammy]

21. You need to google homeopathy

Acupuncture and diet is not homeopathy.

Homeopathy is woo.

[MrNJ]

23. You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? - Medicine.

quote by Tim Minchin

[MattBaggins]

96. What do they call alternative medicine proven not to work?

Hollywood New Age Crap

[Rex]

27. Acupuncture is part of traditional Chinese medicine.

Not really homeopathy. I know a lot of people make fun of acupuncture, because there is no science behind it.

[X_Digger]

51. And actually, it's not very 'traditional', either. (as practiced today)

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-anesthesia-a-proclamation-from-chairman-mao-part-iii/

Rather, the apparent prominence of acupuncture in health care in the PRC was a matter of governmental fiat. Even before the Communist victory in 1949, it was clear to Chairman Mao Zedong that there were not enough ‘Western’ trained physicians to handle the massive health problems of the country, which included an infant mortality rate of 1 in 5, an overall death rate of 30 per 1000 per year, and widespread disability. Most of this was due to malnutrition and infectious diseases, including many that sound exotic and ominous to the modern ear:

"Traditional" acupuncture is more akin to astrology (plus "needles&quot :

Ancient acupuncture treatises even included correspondences between the number of days in a year and the number of acupuncture ‘points’ on the body, and the relation of these to the four seasons. See here (p. 130) for an example, ca. 200 C.E., of several of these metaphors used to ‘explain’ acupuncture.

Mao was stuck with a sick population, few actual doctors, and a whole class of cranks poking each other to try to remedy things. If he completely threw out "traditional" medicine, he'd have a whole class of unemployed folks (and their dependents) to support. So he tried to 'westernize' acupuncture, giving it the veneer of actual science, while quietly also training new doctors to actually treat the ill.

SBM has a great bunch of articles on acupuncture, it's definitely worth a read.

[Rex]

53. Interesting website, thanks!

I know I've read modern Chinese acupuncturists have abandoned the idea of q and meridians. Okay, off to read SBM...very interesting site.

[JJChambers]

29. Lol, what a joke.

I have some snake oil, guaranteed and certified to cure any number of ailments and maladies.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. there have been thousands of scientifical trials to prove that it works

and there has been no sign that it does

personal anecdotal evidence really does not count here because you don't control for extraneous variables in your anecdotal evidence

[Iggo]

35. Homeopathy is pure woo.

[NuclearDem]

37. Heavily-diluted woo, actually.

[Brickbat]

45. Nicely done.

[Atman]

38. I used to like a certain brand of homeopathic eye drops.

When I first started using them years ago they listed Bella Donna as an active ingredient, while also labeled as homeopathic. They've changed the name since then, as well as the ingredients panel. Inert ingredients are listed as "water" and maybe some saline. There are NO active ingredients listed anymore, not even Bella Donna. Now under "active ingredients" it states that "this product complies will accepted homeopathic standards." IOW, there are NO active ingredients. If there were, the FDA would require that they be listed on the label. It is snake oil. $9 for a tiny bottle of distilled water. This is NOT "natural medicine." It is distilled water.

BTW, it's Similasin Dry Eye Relief. I guess your eyes aren't dry anymore once you put two drops of distilled water in them.

[MineralMan]

43. I'm glad they're complying with the law.

Belladonna, and it's principal active ingredient, atropine, does have uses in ophthalmology. In fact, when you go in for a medical eye exam, it's likely that atropine will be used to dilate your pupils so the doctor can get a better look into them.

It was also used as a beauty treatment for eyes a very long time ago, since people seemed to think that dilated pupils were attractive at one point.

Atropine is a medication, derived from the belladonna plant. It's not in those eye drops, though. And it shouldn't be. It's not something for use by amateurs for any purpose. It has other medical uses, as well. It can also kill you if an overdose is taken.

Those eye drops don't have any of it in them, and people should feel lucky that they don't.

[Atman]

52. Again, belladonna used to be listed as an active ingredient in Similasin eye drops.

But it was also labeled as homeopathic. They were either scamming then or they're scamming now. I actually liked the eye drops, though. Whatever was in them, apparently distilled water and saline, it seemed to lubricate my dry eyes. But they no longer list any "active ingredients." I still prefer it to the preservative-laden chemical solutions sold by Visine or Bosch & Lomb. At least I understand that I'm not buying a "natural cure."

[MineralMan]

57. But, if it's actually homeopathic, there wasn't any atropine in it

anyhow. Saline solution will definitely make your eyes feel better for a while.

Atropine will dilate your pupils in a solution applied to your cornea.

Why not just buy a gallon of distilled water, some non-iodized salt, and make your own saline solution? A couple of bucks worth should last the rest of your life. Or, if you'd rather not mix up your own, you can buy sterile saline eye drops or eye wash solutions at any drugstore chain. It's cheap and will work identically with that stuff.

The more you know, the more you know.

[Atman]

60. Oh, I totally agree.

I have some still lying around, but I won't buy it anymore. Not since they applied "truth in labeling," to an extent. Their claim that they adhere to accepted homeopathic standards works great for Darkangel, who doesn't seem to understand that it translates to "You're buying a very expensive bottle of water." There are some other 'natural tears' solutions on the market now, but with one tiny little bottle costing upwards of $12, might as well just make my own.

[Nine]

66. I almost (accidentally) bought those eye drops yesterday.

The word "homeopathic" was very subtle so I didn't notice it at first. I looked at the ingredients and they were as listed here:

http://www.similasanusa.com/irritated-eye-relief

Active ingredients: Purpose
Belladonna* 6X: dryness, redness, burning, sensation of grittiness
Euphrasia 6X: watery discharge
Hepar sulphuris 12X: redness, stinging
*containing 0.000002% alkaloids calculated as hyoscyamine

Other information:
Active ingredients are manufactured according to homeopathic principles.

Inactive ingredients:
Borate buffer, Purified water, Silver sulphate (as preservative), Sodium nitrate

So they DO still have them on the package. At least for the "irritated eye" formulation.

[Atman]

71. They keep coming up with new names for the eye drops.

I've never seen the "irritated eye" formula. When I first bought them, it was Red Eye formula. Then changed to "Dry Eye Relief." They also have allergy formulas and sty formulas. I'm assuming they're all just $9 bottles of distilled water.

And what does "6X" mean? They diluted it six times? Look at the percentage of belladonna..."0.000002% alkaloids calculated as hyoscyamine." Translates to "NONE."

[mn9driver]

114. 6x

Means that the solution has been diluted by a factor of 10, six times successively.

6x is homeopathic shorthand for a 1 million to 1 dilution.

[MattBaggins]

100. They need a law that all stores selling these bullshit products

MUST display the word Homeopathic on the shelving near them.

[Kelvin Mace]

41. Well...

[div class="excerpt"I know dozens of people who have benefited from accupuncture and diet alone.
Aside from the fact that acupuncture and diet are NOT homeopathy, that's called anecdotal evidence and scientifically means nothing.

Let's see what an empirical, peer reviewed study says:

Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy.

Lancet. 2005 Aug 27-Sep 2;366(9487) 26-32.

Abstract

Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.

Long story short, homeopathy = snake oil.

[SidDithers]

42. Get off your own high horse. Accupuncture isn't homeopathy...

homoeopathy is something very specific, and abso-fucking-lutely is woo.



Sid

[Humanist_Activist]

47. In order for it to work, all that we know in science would have to be wrong...

and not just a little wrong either, but completely wrong. Its not just woo, its complete and utter woo.

[LiberalAndProud]

48. You are conflating alternative treatments to homeopathy, as has already been pointed out.

What was it you were saying about high horses?

James Randi explains the idea of homeopathy very well. Homeopathy is woo. If it's not, our kitchen faucet would cure everything that ails us.

[Iggo]

55. ...over and over and over again.

It's almost as if someone's just trying to pick a fight.

[darkangel218]

176. Homeopathy is a big component of all the alternative medicine.

The idea behind it. The idea of self healing and having a positive outcome.

[LiberalAndProud]

181. HeadOn, darkangel.

trash or treasure and eye of the beholder. We won't agree.

[darkangel218]

197. Who cares if you agree?

You can disagree all you want, I'm not in an echo chamber.

To each their own.

[Gravitycollapse]

185. That isn't homeopathy. Homeopathy posits things like water memory...

And inversely proportional potency of a substance to it's dilution. None of which are supported by chemistry, physics or physiology.

[darkangel218]

198. And you really believe in literal effect of water memory?

Homeopathy works because people believe it will work. Nothing more , nothing less. My point is homeopathy has benefits and it has worked in many many cases where traditional medicine failed. It's the power of one's mind over their own body.

[Gravitycollapse]

200. No, you believe water memory is correct. You're the one in support of it.

That's what it means to support homeopathy.

It's either that or you are openly supporting that we fictionalize medicine in favor of the placebo effect. Which, if I'm being completely honest, is utterly insane.

Either way, you're without a doubt completely wrong.

[darkangel218]

202. I dont believe water memory theory is correct.

Not even a bit. I believe in the power of the mind over one's body. It works. The results are there, therefore is nor woo. Woo is something with 0 positive results, and homeopathy is far from that.

[cyberswede]

188. No, it isn't...

It's a specific thing, different from "natural" medicine, which you seem unwilling to acknowledge, despite multiple posts informing you of the difference.

Homeopathy and naturopathy are commonly confused, but they are in fact completely different practices. The two alternative medicine systems are similar in that they are generally considered to be holistic; they focus on the treatment of the whole patient rather than a specific disease or ailment. While most practices in naturopathy are supported by clinical studies, homeopathy is an unscientific practice that lacks merit within the scientific community. Both homeopaths and naturopaths can be licensed as medical doctors in most Western countries, but some jurisdictions ban or restrict both practices.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5417341_naturopath-vs-homeopath.html#ixzz2yjok7IQU

Since you claim to be a nursing student, I can only conclude they you're posting this drivel as flamebait.

[LeftishBrit]

49. Acupuncture and diet are not homeopathy

Not all forms of alternative medicine are homeopathy; and diet isn't even alternative medicine; it is lifestyle; and no one doubts that dietary changes are often very beneficial to health.

[Scootaloo]

54. I'm gonna let Chris Tucker handle this thread...

[Dr. Strange]

58. This thread...

[NCTraveler]

61. Of course it's not. You left out the additional "woo". nt.

[2pooped2pop]

62. homeopathy isn't acupuncture and diet

it's taking a substance and watering it down again and again, hundreds, maybe thousands of times until there is really not even a trace of the substance. The only way it actually works is if the person being treated is doing the mixing as it puts the idea of curing and healing into their minds and actions thousands of times over. It is a very time consuming process that can't be done correctly by someone else or by machine. ANd you can bet your ass that any substance bought is pure water with zero active ingredient. You really think that some big company is really going to do this mixing in the proper way? No, you will buy pure water.

acupuncture, hypnosis, and even guided imagery and positive thoughts can have healing affects. I just don't think buying a bottle of premixed water has ANY healing qualities. If you do the process yourself, it is possible that it could have an effect on the brains own healing abilities, much like prayer does for some.

[Codeine]

63. You're silly. nt

[cyberswede]

64. Oh.my.god.

[Jgarrick]

67. Would it help if we just called it Bullshit?

[wheniwasincongress]

159. Great show

The episode on Cheerleaders was surprising and changed my (bad) attitude to it

[Liberal Veteran]

68. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[darkangel218]

174. What an insightful reply.

Lol.

[G_j]

70. Of course Homeopathy and Acupuncture are entirely different traditions

although they are lumped together often here as "woo". I don't find that to be very helpful.

[etherealtruth]

72. You really have no clue what homeopathy is, do you?

[Throd]

73. Homeopathy Ambulance: Woowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoowoo!!!

[zappaman]

74. I hope you read these replies

since they clearly explain to you what homeopathy is as it is clear you don't know what it is.
But, nothing wrong with learning!

[Liberal Veteran]

75. Learning is woo, apparently. -nt

[MattBaggins]

101. Next week angel will be posting another thread about homeopathy being legit

No desire whatsoever to learn about the topic.

[Call Me Wesley]

76. Are you really just on DU,

to start OPs to randomly insulting other DUers and then double down? Because that's as trollish as it can get. I'll say this in the most respectable way, but you're not a very pleasant being to discuss opinions with.

[Heidi]

77. Bless your heart.

[tkmorris]

79. To recap: Acupuncture and Diet are not Homeopathy

Homeopathy is 100% pure woo. Acupuncture is also woo. Diet is of course not woo, and is offended that you grouped it alongside those other two charlatans.

[Call Me Wesley]

80. "Doctor! Doctor!

I overdosed on my homeopathic pills!"
"Oh no! There's nothing I can do for you. You will die a diluted death. It can take years and years and years ..."

[Heidi]

104. Dilutions of grandeur.

[eridani]

153. DUzy!! n/t

[Jean Louise Finch]

81. Massive homeopathic overdose....

[etherealtruth]

82. I love it!!!!!

[Tom Ripley]

83. You are correct; it is the "essence" of woo

[NRaleighLiberal]

85. Accupuncture and Diet are not Homeopathy.

But as to Homeopathy, Just this paragraph (from the definition/discussion of the topic) should cause great concern

"Active" ingredients

The list of ingredients seen on remedies may confuse consumers into believing the product actually contains those ingredients. According to normal homeopathic practice, remedies are prepared starting with active ingredients that are often serially diluted to the point where the finished product no longer contains any biologically "active ingredients" as that term is normally defined.

Lots to read here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Examples of effectiveness are simply the placebo effect, I suspect.

[MattBaggins]

87. 1+1=2

If someone tells me it equals three I dismiss them. Nothing to do with opening my perspectives.

People with so called "open minds" are people who simply lack the ability for critical thinking and examining if something is true or false.

Homeopathy is pure nonsense. Scientific bullshit.

Tosh

[closeupready]

93. It's not, but many freepers here and others who profit from existing

flawed therapies have an almost primal need to squelch all discussion of non-AMA-sanctioned treatments, so I just trash any and all threads they start, since they are here in bad faith - I'd recommend doing so, because you aren't going to have an honest discussion with any of them.

Cheers.

[NRaleighLiberal]

103. huh?

[MineralMan]

105. I think you do not understand the term "freeper."

It does not mean someone who disagrees with you, actually, nor does it mean someone who considers science to be the best equipped system for understanding the physical world.

Since you don't identify who the people you are calling "freepers," I have to think you mean anyone who disagrees with your opinion. That's a very poor definition.

[closeupready]

107. Since you were, in fact, once a Free Republic member, you'd know.

[MineralMan]

109. So were a number of DUers.

You still don't understand the word, though. Freepers are right wingers, and mostly extreme right wingers. A lot of them also believe that alternative medicine is superior to real medicine. They're also often racists and other noxious things.

I haven't seen any freepers in this thread. I've seen a number of people who take science seriously, though. I've also seen some who are suspicious of it. That pretty much has nothing to do with politics, though.

It's rude to imply that those who disagree with you are "freepers." It's a personal attack on those in whatever group you mention to do that. Usually, you can get away with that as long as you don't call a specific DUer a freeper. But it's still rude. There are no freepers in this thread.

[closeupready]

110. You're the only one of which I'm aware who admits to it publicly.

And on that basis, I discount everything you post here, as I would anyone else who admitted to that here.

You did apologize to the GLBT community for your record there, and for my part I was okay with that, but it is a part of your identity here.

[MineralMan]

111. You're welcome to any discount you can find on my opinions.

I have a regular 10% discount available, but you may be able to find additional discounts online.

I'm just suggesting you use the word "freeper" a little more judiciously. You might be surprised at how many DUers have posted on that other website at one time or another.

In any case, I was banned from that website for "anti-freeping" in 2006, eight years ago, so the term does not apply to me, either.

[dionysus]

121. lot's of DUers admit to trolling FR...

[closeupready]

128. And is that a productive endeavor?

I mean, I don't get it. ? Is there value in wallowing with pigs?

[dionysus]

133. not to me there isn't, but i can see how someone might like yanking their chains,or, if they really

wanted to try something futile.. try changing their minds on something.

[closeupready]

143. True - I guess a function of advancing age is a growing inability to

find amusement in bickering with people like that, and/or recognizing that with time being finite, energy and resources towards persuading public opinion is best spent elsewhere, not there.

Cheers.

[dionysus]

160. yeah, i troll my RW friends and acquaintances on FB, but i don't have the energy to take it

to a RW board...

(and by trolling I mean looking up the lame chain emails they post and debunking them thoroughly. even when faced with the facts, they'll stammer "I don't care if he actually said that.. it's TRUE anyways!&quot



but I reach my limit sometimes.. a guy posted an article based on a 2009 chain email yesterday saying the dems were conspiring with the UN to confiscate all guns.. I didn't even bother with that one. the stoopid was too strong in them

[closeupready]

161. Yeah, most of my hometown friends are RW - not sure why... but

I've realized my views - informed as they are mainly with stuff from DU - are unpopular, even if they tolerate some contrarianism from me.

I get lots of God and Jesus stuff there (on FB) - but you know, what can I do?

[dionysus]

162. i get deluged with jeebus, guns,and gays are bad shit, plus obama is the antichrist..(and more guns)

[SidDithers]

108. ...

Sid

[NuclearDem]

117. No, some of us just have a working knowledge of how science works.

Some others though tend to throw out baseless name calling and allegations of conspiracy and pretend that that's science.

[oldhippie]

95. yes, it is. nt

[qazplm]

97. Pla-Ce-Bo E-ffect

and yes, it's absolutely, 100 percent, industrial strength, pure-grade woo made straight from the bark of the woo tree.

[darkangel218]

195. Placebo effect works. Placebo effect is not woo, its a proven fact.

[hobbit709]

98. Caca de vaca

[darkangel218]

196. Says you.

[bravenak]

99. But it is though.

It is.
Diet is not woo and also not homeopathy.
Acupuncture is not homeopathy.
Homeopathy is stupid.

[Archae]

102. Are they woo?

Homeopathy is woo.

Acupuncture is woo.

Diet alone is possibly not woo, unless it's just another of the latest fad diets that keep popping up now and then.
For example, a diabetic needs to watch their sugar intake.
But you'd swear there's an epidemic of bowel disease with all the "gluten free" hype going on.

Chiropractic is woo.

Therapeutic Touch is woo.

Faith healing is woo.

Sure you can claim to know "dozens of people" who have benefited.

But that is anecdotal, and anecdotes are worthless in ascertaining the effectiveness of any medicine.

[Warren DeMontague]

112. Homeopathy is water that is supposed to have magical properties.

Yes, it is woo.

Diet and acupuncture are diet and acupuncture, not homeopathy. Whether or not they are offered as additional advice from someone giving "homeopathic care", that doesn't make them homeopathy.

Homeopathy is not just woo, it's the gold fucking standard of woo.

[baldguy]

157. Water that "remembers" the medicine, but forgets all of the poo

[Walk away]

191. And what's crazy is, there is no medicine in most water but there is plenty of poo.

Maybe Poo is Woo!

[whatchamacallit]

113. Of course not, and anyone making such a simplistic statement is a total boob

If you consider many synthesized drugs are based on naturally occurring chemicals and compounds, it's idiotic to conclude that diet has no therapeutic effects. The same boobs conveniently forget all of medical science's tragic mistakes (woo) from Thalidomide to Vioxx. Welcome to DU, where lots of unhealthy people delight in telling you your lifestyle choices are crazy.

[cthulu2016]

116. You would be right if the OP were not about homeopathy

The author of the OP is confused about what homeopathy is, and thinks that, for insatnce, a good diet is homeopathy.

It isn't.

The people saying homeopathy is fake are doing so because homeopathy (which is not diet or accupuncture) is fake.

[whatchamacallit]

118. Sure, I should have been more clear about responding mainly to the diet part of the post

A lot of the same folks who bash alternative medicine bash many diet choices as well.

[cthulu2016]

120. I agree that diet is super important, medically

[dionysus]

119. i think they're confused with holistic remedies.

[cthulu2016]

123. I think you are right. And some practitioners

probably call themselves homeopaths despite not actually doing homeopathy.

(In the way most chiropractors do things that are outside chiropractic and are more like her massage and physical therapy, but their patients would come away thinking of it all as chiropractic. Actual chiropractic is crazy fake, but that doesn't mean a person called a chiropractor has never done anything useful for a patient.)

[dionysus]

125. while i can see realigning a really crooked spine might be beneficial (the rugby players in college

seemed to think so, enthusiastically) , I have read here that chiros also promote some crazy stuff, like cracking your neck can get rid of your earaches (which caused some patients to have strokes). and they also see homeopathic woo things on the side.

I am missing my lowest disc in my back. sometimes it goes out of position and hurts quite a bit. I've learned how to manipulate my lower body to where sometimes I can hear it snap back into place, and the pain goes away. I always thought of things like that as falling under home grown chiropractic (as amateur as mine is). but I guess they went beyond small stuff like that and are making some outrageous claims of what manipulation bones can do...

[cthulu2016]

129. The original theory is that most/all disease is caused by "subluxations" of the spine, so

it's a real "if the only tool you have is a hammer" thing.

People with cancer, high blood pressure, kidney failure... everyone just needs their spine aligned.

Today very few chiropractors will admit to believing that stuff, and recognize the legal problems with treating various organic illnesses with bone twisting, but if they have a degree in it they were taught it at some point.

Today, if you go to a chiropractor with liver cancer I assume most will recommend you see an oncologist... but maybe they can offer some adjunct treatment.

But back in the day... whew!

Kind of like that foot massage where some part of the foot corresponds to the kidneys, another part to the intestines, etc.. Um... why would pushing on your foot fix your kidnies? How could that even evolve? But foot massage ALWAYS feels good and if someone tells you you can chose foot massage or dialysis...

[dionysus]

130. oh, i thought they primarily dealt in bad backs.. what you described is nuts.

so much for my knowledge on the topic

what you said reminds me of an old wives tale; walking barefoot on a cold floor is bad for your kidneys..

[cthulu2016]

132. Hmmm. 90% of barefoot walking on cold floors is on the way to the bathroom at night...

So I can see an observed/self-observed correlation of people who get up a lot to pee and kidney dysfunction.

(A lot of it would have been prostate, but nobody had heard of a prostate back in the day and would have assumed weak kidneys)

[white_wolf]

124. 99% of it is harmless bullshit. 1% can kill you.

Someone on another forum just posted a story that his mom bought some homeopathic remedy in France that contained Mercury and Nightshade. Sorry, homeopathic remedies need to undergo the same testing as real medicine and everything that doesn't pass the tests shouldn't be sold.

[Warpy]

126. No, homeopathy is WATER

All you get out of it will be the placebo effect if you're susceptible to it.

If you're really sick, your best bet is consulting an evidence based practitioner--a doctor.

Oh, and acupuncture and diet are not homeopathy.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

131. Thank you darkangel218!

Acupuncture on a small area on my back is the only way for me to get relief! One of my vertebra is a corkscrew. It is some sort of a birth defect. Massage Therapists don't want to touch me and due to a allergic reaction to most pain relievers, I end up in some pain!

So for me, acupuncture all the way!

[Atman]

136. What does that have to do with homeopathy?

There is no relation. Unless one wants to suggest that acupuncture is bullshit, too.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

137. darkangel218 said:

Homeopathy is not woo.

Not all, anyway.
I know dozens of people who have benefited from acupuncture and diet alone.

This is, I believe an answer post to:
Title:Woo is woo. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4809182

[maddezmom]

138. Actually, that was a reply to this post

And homeopathy is woo but has nothing to do with diet or acupuncture.

[Logical]

149. Placebo effect! nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

135. Homeopathy is not the same as acupuncture or dieting.

Not even close. Acupuncture might help in some cases (it helped my tendinitis when nothing else did); diet certainly can help some conditions; but homeopathy is nothing but expensive water. There is no scientific basis for homeopathy being any good for anything. It has been repeatedly debunked. It is quackery, nothing more. Don't confuse homeopathy, which is bullshit, with holistic or alternative medicine, which in some cases has scientific support.

[markpkessinger]

141. All I know is that at a time in my life when I didn't have health insurance . . .

. . . and had, in the space of a year, four gallbladder attacks, causing me the worst pain I have ever experienced (far worse, in fact, than the pain I had when my appendix burst a couple of years ago), after visiting the emergency rooms of two different hospitals during the first three attacks and barely even getting diagnostic, let alone palliative, treatment, in desperation I began researching homeopathic and natural remedies. I came across something called a "gallbladder flush" (also known as a "liver flush&quot , which involved a total fast for three days (which wasn't a problem because eating was the last thing I could even think about -- breathing was hard enough), then drinking THREE CUPS of olive oil (with a bit of grapefruit juice afterwards to help cut the oil in my mouth), and then staying very close to a bathroom for about the next 48 hours, I DID get relief. I followed up by taking a supplement sold under the brand name "Stone Free," and consuming, several times a day for the next month, lemon water with a bit of peppermint oil (which also happens to be quite refreshing). That was over 10 years ago, and I've never had another attack since. So, while my first instinct and preference is still mainstream medicine, I am not at all closed-minded about alternative remedies!

[840high]

152. When I feel gallbladder discomfort

I take Milk Thistle. My whole adult life I have combined alternative medicine with traditional medicine.

[elias7]

165. Maybe you were constipated

If you didn't get much diagnostic work, perhaps the practitioners at these different ERs were suspicious of something other than your gall bladder.

[CreekDog]

142. i wonder if this is what Correspondence Nursing Schools are teaching "homeopathy" means these days

i should ask someone.

[eridani]

144. Acupuncture is NOT homeopathy. Neither is being a dietician. n/t

[Cha]

145. I know certain homeopathic remedies have worked for me.. but,

I really don't care what other people call it as long as it helps when the occasion arises.

[hobbit709]

146. and astrology is a science.

[Logical]

148. In the old days people said slaughtering a chicken cured them. Believe it? LOL! nt

[enki23]

151. Homeopathy is not woo because Reiki cures fibromyalgia and it's good to exercise.

I can play too!

Homeopathy is not woo because...

1. Aliens visitors probe our rectums, and some people with osteoporosis can benefit from increased vitamin D.
2. People from Atlantis built the pyramids and breastfeeding is the best way to feed most newborns.
3. Chiropractic can cure sinus infections and some people have their mood lifted by listening to music.
4. Ass candling can help treat colon cancer and you should avoid too much sun exposure to help fight skin cancer.
5. We create reality with the power of our minds and dogs should not be fed chocolate.
6. All disease is actually caused by liver flukes and some alcoholics might benefit from B vitamin supplements.
7. All disease is actually caused by yeast infections and it's best to apply direct pressure to most bleeding wounds.
8. All disease is actually caused by negative energy and we should all wash our hands after using the restroom.

It's a great pattern. <Foo> isn't woo because <unrelated crazy bullshit> and <uncontroversial and completely unrelated fact that's well understood by science and modern medicine>.

No, woo doesn't own diet and exercise. I currently teach nutrition to kiddies who plan to go on to work in healthcare. It's required to get into the local nursing program. It's an intro class, and we very much have to rush through it. Even so, after just one simple class, every one of them will understand it far, far better than near every woo practitioner i've ever seen try to claim diet or exercise in the name of <crazy bullshit X>.

[TroglodyteScholar]

154. My perspective is that you don't know the meaning of the word "homeopathy"

Please look it up before you try to start another discussion about it. It's a very specific and non-scientific practice that most certainly IS woo.

[Uben]

156. It's woo...

...unless it works, then it is woo hoo!

[TransitJohn]

158. Yes, it is. Gold plated, pie in the sky woo of the highest order.

Water with memory of molecules that used to be in it? Get the fuck out of here.

[Riftaxe]

163. Woo

is woo.

Stick with the soft science, those guys and gals have a slightly better rep for no discernible reason other then attendance.

[Boreal]

164. I've been successfully treated

with both homeopathy (my homeopath is also an MD) and acupuncture.

There is a real agenda against homeopathy and it comes from big pharma. There's also (for some odd reason) a particularly British agenda against it.

Different methods and systems have their places. Allopathic medicine is wonderful for trauma, emergencies and surgery. It's dreadful and often dangerous for chronic and degenerative disease, where homeopathy is fantastic. Acupuncture is great for pain and probably more but not used much in the US.

Like alt energy is attacked by big oil, gas and nuclear, alt healing is attacked by the pimps for orthodox medicine and pharma. Don't buy their lies. Research it, in depth, for yourself and if you have a need for treatment, find a good doc and make up your own mind. Never let anyone do your thinking for you and ALWAYS beware of the red flag of ridicule.

[NRaleighLiberal]

166. Nope. The agenda against homeopathy is reasoning, common sense and science.

You need an active ingredient to have a positive effect. It is pure placebo effect - which is great (whatever works) - but it doesn't have a sound scientific leg to stand on (I am a Dartmouth PhD/U WA post doc in organic chemistry, which may or may not count for anything to you). It is very different from using certain herbs - such as turmeric - which contain curcumin, long used (and chemically related) to analgesic compounds. And even in those cases, since herbal supplements don't really go through rigorous testing, it is a crap shoot as to whether you are buying what it says on the label....caveat emptor!

[maddezmom]

167. +10000

[RedCappedBandit]

168. What do acupuncture and diet have to do with homeopathy? Lol. nt.

[darkangel218]

171. Its all based on mind over body, in essence.

Accupuncture does a bit more than that, but all in all a big part of it it's still homeopathic.

[NRaleighLiberal]

170. .

[cyberswede]

190. That reply was so perfect, it was worth the hide.

...to me, anyway... I hope Kali agrees.

[Walk away]

192. I honestly don't know how anyone reading the OP and thread could vote to hide that reply.

It is what everyone is thinking.

[darkangel218]

193. Lol!! well too bad, that poster got what she deserved.

[Niceguy1]

177. sometimes

Certain posters lack of tolerance for diversity astounds me.

[darkangel218]

199. Meh..

Same old .. different topic.

[alarimer]

178. No, it's actually water.

And entirely bullshit.

ALL so-called "alternative" medicine is BULLSHIT. Has been proven in numerous studies to be ineffective and, worse, actually harmful.

We call it "woo" to reflect that it is nonsense and in the hope of saving people from themselves.

Some links to educate yourself (not that you will):

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/another-damning-homeopathy-report/

[NickB79]

179. And the plural of anecdote is still not data

"I know dozens of people who............"

[NuclearDem]

180. [phone]

Cannot emphasize that point enough.

Anecdotal evidence is worthless.

[AverageJoe90]

182. I always homeopathy referred only to the practice of diluting a substance in a water solution.......

for health or treatment purposes, TBH.....

[Gravitycollapse]

183. Do you believe that diluting a substance makes it more potent? Because that is moronic.

Homeopathy is quackery. It subscribes to a totally disproven idea surrounding basic chemistry and physiology.

[libdem4life]

186. Sheer Ignorance..Even the Queen's Royal Hospital of Homeopathy was forced to change it's name. Why?

Just in the last decade or so. Sure doesn't look like "woo". http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/ourservices/ourhospitals/rlhim/Pages/Home.aspx

But the allopaths didn't like it. Now it's OK and cool to be Integrated Medicine. They still do homeopathy. Not many can explain why putting a plug in the wall turns on a light either...it's sheer energy creating motion running down some wires. But if you put your finger in it, that energy goes elsewhere.

I remember when acupuncture was woo, too. Sticking needles in people for, gasp, pain???? Then Kaiser started doing it because it cut down on their costs (that, and yoga classes and chiropractic...more woo), and of course it worked, so they could be cheaper than the other medical plans. They own Northern California medical plans.

Allopathic medicine...if you can't see it on a slide, cut it up, cut it out, give it a pill, or become a specialist, it's just not real science. These things are not unimportant, but don't own the medical farm.

Remember Alexander Bell? Thomas Edison? Einstein? Real "woo" guys of their times.

Years of experience with its success. Works on animals, too. In No Cal they had a homeopathic animal practice/hospital. Like anything, you have to know how to use it...it requires actually educating oneself rather than traipsing into the doctor's office for a pill. There are times that is appropriate, but mostly not.

[SidDithers]

187. There's nobody, other than you apparently, who considers acupuncture to be homeopathy...

That's like saying some consider chicken to be beef, or some consider carrots to be potatoes.

Homeopathy is a very specific type of woo. Dozens of posters in this thread have tried, with absolutely no success, to explain this to you.



Sid

[jeff47]

189. The fun part about actupuncture

is it works just as well whether or not your acupuncturist has received training.

So don't bother paying for someone with a wall of certifications, having anyone jam needles in you works just as well.

[darkangel218]

194. That was my point.

Mind over matter.

It does work especially in alleviating symptoms.

[darkangel218]

201. Im deleting my OP.

Here is my post.

0. Homeopathy is not woo.
Not all, anyway.
I know dozens of people who have benefited from accupuncture and diet alone.

Please get off your high horse and open your perspectives.

On edit, I meant to refer to alternative medicine in general. Some consider acupuncture homeopathy, as in mind over matter, rather than the physiological changes it may create.

D.

Have a nice night!!