Do not ever make the mistake of thinking that the Republicans are anything but the enemy.

[TheWraith]

I've seen a bunch of posts here tonight basically cheering on the Republican-led effort to try and destroy the Affordable Care Act, on the belief that that would somehow pave the way for passing a single-payer plan, on the grounds that based on one poll two thirds of the public supports it, and therefore it means that Republicans would be forced to vote for it. This belief is so wrong that it's hard to explain it without comparisons to the tooth fairy, but that's not the point of this. The point is, it is a mistake to ever think that the Republicans are there to serve the public, or to react to public opinion, or that they can be "forced" to do anything by virtue of it being either right or popular.

Public opinion has NEVER influenced what the Republicans do. Ever. How many Americans want bipartisan work on the economy? How many Americans want extended unemployment benefits? Take a look at the 2010 "lame duck" session: even though the votes were there for many of President Obama's goals, the handful of Republicans who later crossed over refused before the election to vote for THINGS THEY SUPPORTED specifically in order to campaign AGAINST them, because by campaigning against them they can hurt Obama and the Democrats.

The Republicans specialize in doing exactly what the public DOESN'T want, and then trying to blame it on someone else. If the Affordable Care Act is destroyed, that event will be exploited by the Republicans as a set piece to push the line that government can't handle healthcare, and as an excuse to promote the elimination of Medicare and Medicaid. If you believe something else, I have to ask what rock you've been living under the past three years. The Republicans are not bound by public opinion, and never will be as long as they can get away with gaming the system. The only means to push back on that is to expose them as obstructionist, and to work our asses off district by district to replace them with Democrats.

[FSogol]

1. K&R. n/t

[elleng]

2. Correct, ain't gonna happen.

[annabanana]

3. "Public opinion has NEVER influenced what the Republicans do. Ever. "

True that. The list of things they've fought against is astounding.

Suffrage for women, minorities and non-landowners
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
the 40 hour workweek (hence weekends)
minimum wage
child labor laws
clean air
clean water
wilderness protection

feel free to add your own

[lastlib]

16. UNIONS; Collective Bargaining rights; Pensions; Civil Rights; PEACE......

to name only a few.

Edit to add: Oh, yeah--Education

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. Wish I could recommend your post 1000 times. Damn right. n/t

[freshwest]

5. ...

Last edited Sun Sep 2, 2012, 10:01 PM - Edit history (2)

I want to reiterate quotes I've found here that express my disgust with the GOP:

Republicans serve The Beast.

From the dawn of mankind they are the regressive element that's been holding back and destroying our civilization. They nourish other-dimensional entities that feed on misery, pain, and chaos.

Republicans are their minions, and hope to share in these entities' power, or be spared the pain.

But The Beast never shares; The Beast never spares.

And this one:

The single largest defect of modern conservatism is that it has ruined the nation. Conservatives do not have ideas; they have interests.

Conservatives are not “thinkers”; they are rationalizers who give an intellectual gloss to their belief that an alliance of predatory businesspeople and religious extremists should rule the rest of us.

The wreckage caused by modern conservatism lies all around us, and speaks for itself: If conservatism isn’t dead, it should be.

- DANIEL ROSEN - Washington Post 10/9/2009

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/the-best-letter-to-the-editor-ever/question-883863/?page=2

I used to not feel this way, and at times I want to go back to how I once felt. That we are all working imperfectly, to get to a sense of oneness, creating something better, clumsily and crudely. I keep trying to tell myself this and look at all the angles because there is good and bad in everything and everyone. But at times, I just can't be that person.

[freshwest]

127. Obama is a better person than me. But he's telling the truth and aren't they howling!

[ZombieHorde]

6. I don't agree with the term "enemy," but I strongly agree with the

general gist of your OP.

My sister inlaw is a Republican, and she is not my enemy.

[mercymechap]

53. I have in-laws that are Republican

and they would almost let their party come between our relationship. In fact, my husband and his sister almost had a falling out because she kept sending crappy e-mails with Republican rhetoric and lies and he called her on it! Although she apologized for saying something God awful, and he accepted her apology, their relationship will never ever be great, all on account of politics.

[noiretextatique]

7. i never make that mistake

and i DO consider repblicons enemies.

[still_one]

8. I agree, and even if the court just ruled against the mandate, the repukes will insure that nothing

will be allowed to change it to classify it as a tax, or something more "acceptable" to the corporate court

The only hope we have for Single payer is if the ACA is ruled Constitutional

[MadHound]

9. "The enemy"? Really?

So my father in law, a Republican, is the enemy? As are many of my other friends, family and neighbors?

So what should I do to these "enemies"? Disassociate myself from them? Hector them for their beliefs at every possible chance? Kill them?

Positioning any broad group of people as "the enemy" has never ended well in the history of mankind.

[TheWraith]

10. You know exactly what I mean.

Although frankly I find it unsurprising to hear coming from somebody who basically makes a life habit of heckling the Democrats for the most minor perceived infractions, while ignoring the Republicans.

[MadHound]

12. Given the tenor of your posting history, yes, I know exactly what that means.

n/t

[TheWraith]

13. Care to elaborate on that? nt

[northoftheborder]

11. It is difficult to have friends and family who are Republican.

In my case, I just have to remember I treasure my relationship with them on other levels than politics more, than being right. They are just uninformed, I tell myself. I actively hate some of those Rethugs in Congress, but I am not related to them.

[backscatter712]

25. I'm sorry. It's the damned truth.

Republicans have proven that they can be regarded as nothing but deadly enemies.

They're sociopaths. They've proven time and time again they care nothing for the country or for the people, and they're willing to screw us all just to win elections and gain power.

They're that evil.

[MadHound]

32. So my elderly, sweet mother in law is a "deadly enemy"?

What do you propose I should do about her, or those many others?

You do see where this attitude is leading, don't you? You do understand that only bad things come of demonizing a broad swath of people?

You are listening to yourself, what you're saying, what you're becoming? Because to me it sounds like you are becoming that which you hate.

Perhaps you should reconsider.

[Robb]

41. Perhaps you should listen to yourself. Such apologia.

A sweet little old lady who votes against civil rights is so adorable. She wouldn't hurt a fly!

[sudopod]

109. Counterpoint

People can't help how they were raised. With enough love and patience, they can change, though.

[mercymechap]

55. I don't think the OP is saying "enemy" like in "terrorists" although Republicans have

(Limbaugh) called Democrats terrorists and think we are more terrifying than terrorists.
I have a son that is a Republican, and we don't ever discuss politics because we know we are not going to come to any compromise. Even though I raised him the same as the others, I don't understand why he leans right, but I can see that he is more about himself than the others, doesn't think anybody ever helped him and does show a bit of selfishness, all trademarks of most Republicans. My in-laws are also Republicans, and although I have told them over and over not to send their propaganda, it's almost like they are deaf. It has almost cost us the relationship. My husband and I have dear friends that happen to be Republican, but we have so many other things in common, and we respect the right to differ in that area that for 7 years it has not been a problem. They may not be our "enemy" per say, but voting for the things their leaders stand for is as close to being an enemy than anything else I can think of. So, lighten up!

[MineralMan]

95. I don't know your mother-in-law, so I can't speak

to her personality. However, if she consistently votes for Republicans, she's voting for racism, against choice for women, and against everything I hope for. She's not a personal enemy of mine, but she is a supporter of things that are anathema to me.

How's that?

[Phlem]

39. what about the Nazi's

BTW I'm in the same situation as you and my father in law is an asshole as the rest of my republican family. They always know better than I. Seems to be a consistent thread.

Have a great day.

-p

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

46. Godwin's Law just kicked in

Godwin's Law - first person to introduce Hitler into a thread loses the argument

re: my Republican friends. I just sigh and very gently say (as if to a six year old), "You're watching way too much Fox News."

[truebrit71]

59. Godwin's "law" is absolute bullshit...

..and a stupid tactic devised to derail a conversation rather than add to it...

[A Simple Game]

61. And many people believe nazi references derail a conversation rather than add to it... n/t

[bart95]

84. no, it's a brilliant observation of lameness nt

[truebrit71]

86. As is this reply...

...the concept that to compare something to the Nazis automatically voids the position being made is, frankly, fucking stupid.

There are plenty of instances when it is perfectly legitimate to bring up a Nazi reference/comparison, just as there are plenty of instances to bring up Stalin/Gulags/Communism etc etc...Just because some silly git somewhere came up with this "law" doesn't mean it is actually valid. In fact, it sounds like he was probably losing the argument he was having and had to divert attention from the subject matter in a vain attempt to win conversational points...I therefore come up with my own law that says that the first person in an online discussion that uses Godwin's law, or references it in any way immediately invalidates the entirety of their own argument and must submerge their head promptly into a bucket of cold spaghetti whilst singing 'Ave Maria'....

I believe that my law is an even more brilliant observation of lameness...

[bart95]

87. godwin's law applies only when cited

meaning it's the reader's option to invoke it

'the concept that to compare something to the Nazis automatically voids the position being made'

only if the reader chooses to, they can let it slide if they want to

but it's a good law that cleans up threads - you either get godwin's law, or you dont

[truebrit71]

92. It's total bollocks and a lame way to get out of an argument.

THAT part I get...

[bart95]

100. there's only one way you can win this arguement

and i'm not going to mention the subject that would allow you to cite something and win

[truebrit71]

101. I already have 'won'....

...'cos I can spell 'argument' correctly...

[bart95]

102. nope, you haven't

and playing 'spelling cop' deserves a godwin like rule

[Phlem]

103. Wow

So winning this argument is more important than discussing the op.

Really!?

Glad your all about winning some F'ing argument than discussing how we're ALL losing.

Jeebus.

Godwins law is ignorant and doesn't hold water.

The discussion was not that long and the original assertion was an ignorant observation.

Now can we go back to the actual matter at hand.

I know people that NEED to win arguments. They're called Republicans.

-p

[truebrit71]

107. Oh quit being such a Nazi...

...Oh, dammit, now I have to Godwin myself....

[truebrit71]

106. ...as does defending that lame-ass "law"

...Nazi, nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi,nazi....

[bart95]

108. no, i'm not going to godwin you

i'm just going to let that violation rest on your own conscience

(a little mind game i learned from the nuns in elementary school)

LOL

[Phlem]

62. Godwins ASS

The assertion was:

Positioning any broad group of people as "the enemy" has never ended well in the history of mankind.

and I answered with a group not an individual.

Should I have said the Mongols? How about Al Queda or GIA, or Khmer Rouge/The Party of Democratic Kampuchea, or...Fundamentalist Christians.

Every groups seems to follow a corrupt ideology, and perpetuates a corrupt system.

"I just sigh and very gently say (as if to a six year old), "You're watching way too much Fox News." Does not better the situation of rampant ignorance.
They still go and vote against your best interest. My wife's best interest, my daughters and mine and my friends and family all need better than this status quo.

-p

[CJCRANE]

56. The OP is obviously referring to Republican politicians. nt

[Wind Dancer]

71. Exactly!

Thanks for stating the obvious!

[Phlem]

75. Exactly!

and how much more down the toilet do we need to go before we understand the OP? I cannot accomplish what my back woods, F'ing hillbilly of a father in law with no high school diploma know it all retired tech Sargent of an a$$hole abusive prick can do.

Retire.

They are NOT honest brokers, and yet you still feel compelled that bipartisanship will fix it all?



-p

[Puzzledtraveller]

104. Thank you Madhound!!

[DCBob]

118. I also have many Republican family and friends.. I dont necessarily blame them.

I blame the Republican leadership and influences from big money and big media.. particularly Faux News. They have brainwashed about 30% of the US adult poplulation.

[kenny blankenship]

14. Huh. Maybe you should have told Obama about that?

He seemed to believe that Republicans had something good to add to the legislation and would vote for it if allowed to amend it. He got nothing but kept at it for some reason.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. +1000000!

[newspeak]

37. oh, I don't know

a health care bill right out of the heritage foundation including the mandate is a very repug idea. We'll see about scotus' decision. Right now, the scotus is very pro corporation and they may argue; but we'll see what actually comes down. With scalia, I can see him be against anything that actually would regulate the health insurance industry; not so much really caring about the american plebes.

Of course, I'm not shocked that the repugs APPEAR to be fighting the bill. After all, it's really their idea; and now they act like it was some sort of SOSHULIST idea. Now, it was their idea when they pretended to CARE about the american people; now they've convinced their sycophants that people who don't have health care it's their fault; therefore, they should just die. Once they had a half greedy heart; now they have none at all.

[Maven]

43. PWNED

[Zorra]

15. Recommend. I could not agree more. They've been my enemy for my entire life.

A cornerstone of my worldview is

Never, Ever, Trust A Republican.

Never.

Ever.

This unwavering belief has never failed me.

Republicans are bad for children, and that's not a joke.

[nauthiz]

17. Thank Jebus

Someone @#$ing said it! You CANNOT make alliances with these people; they have one goal and one goal only. There is no compromise. Their defeat is your victory. Ugh. Progressives make me tear my hair out sometimes. You have a two party system. Pick one, defeat the other, then discuss details later.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

18. Tell that to Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt.

Yes, I know the Republican party has changed a great deal since then, but it's still the same party with the same name. If you want to hate conservative ideologues who embrace the politics of hatred and ignorance, more power to you, but remember it wasn't too long ago that quite a few Democrats fell into that category.

[Neoma]

27. Oversimplification:

The parties switched sides. Democrats were pushing for the civil rights act. The southern Dixiecrats essentially said "fuck you, we hate black people." And then they became republicans. It's not the same party that formed for the rights of women's suffrage and abolitionism.

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

63. Yes, it is, officially.

That's my point: the Republican Party weren't always the bad guys. They are now, sure, and that's not likely to change any time soon, but it might not be the case forever. The people who made the GOP what it is today, they're the ones who have always been and will always be the bad guys, regardless of party affiliation. I just think we should keep that in mind rather than getting hung up on labels that might not mean the same thing to our grandkids that they do to us.

[newspeak]

114. of course repugs weren't always the bad guys

eisenhower basically said anyone who attempted to mess with social security would lose. However, with the RW propaganda machine for the last thirty years; they've finally convinced some people to shoot themselves in the foot. Before goldwater died, he found the new wacko GOP quite disappointing.

These new GOPers I believe would sell the american people down the river in a heartbeat if they could have a piece of that koch or any global corporation pie.

And the best way to convince the clueless ones is to "sell" religion. And, they do it so well. See, God blessed them with all that money, it was not made on the backs of labor or screwing a bunch of marks. And if you're not wealthy, you don't deserve to live unless you kneel at the altar of mammon, I mean god. Or, after working and working your poor because god is testing you. And, if god is testing you, you're still on your own. Yeah, even goldwater would be disgusted.

[Puzzledtraveller]

105. and Frederick Douglas n/t

[ClassWarrior]

19. So you have a problem with Dems trying to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat...

...if this thing fails?

NGU.

[slipslidingaway]

20. Only one poll ???

"I've seen a bunch of posts here tonight basically cheering on the Republican-led effort to try and destroy the Affordable Care Act, on the belief that that would somehow pave the way for passing a single-payer plan, on the grounds that based on one poll two thirds of the public supports it ..."

Which ONE poll is that?

[CakeGrrl]

21. Cheering on something the GOP wants is...I don't know.

I cannot believe that people actually think a Teabag-controlled House would vote for Healthcare for all.

So now, the crack needed to get a foot in the door and make progress could be slammed shut.

Maybe this is what it will take before some realize that you need to get the GOP out of Congress.

[ClassWarrior]

22. So "give up Democrat losers?"

What's your point? There's no hope?

NGU.

[CakeGrrl]

76. Get Dems in Congress.

It's not the Dem in the WH who's the problem.

Get the votes in Congress to support Progressive legislation, he'll sign it.

[xtraxritical]

28. VOTE A STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC BALLOT be happy and sane again!

[Kablooie]

31. I doubt that would make us happy and sane...

Because this isn't a perfect world, but it sure as hell beats voting in Republicans so I'd recommend the same thing to anyone.

[AZ Progressive]

90. Hah, it won't matter unless tens of millions of Americans more does that n/t

[Phlem]

121. never happen

To many democrats that act like republicans, even in this thread.

-p

[indivisibleman]

23. Today's republican politicians are the enemy. Completely agree.

Republican voters are another thing. As things go forward I hope for some of them to come to their senses. They are US citizens, part of the 99% and many are my friends, neighbors and relatives. I do not consider the republican voter my enemy. If I did I wouldn't even try to convince them to understand what progressives and liberals believe. I know how difficult it is to talk sense to many of them but I still try because they are not my enemy. But today's republican politicians are enemies of America from what I see them doing. I don't need to list the utter crap they say, support and work for.

I used to vote Republican up to 2000. It was then I was beginning to come to my senses. Even years before this I started having my doubts but I still voted republican. I am embarrassed to say that I listened to Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and believed their lies and spin.

Even some republican politicians show signs of a soul from time to time but it never lasts for long and sometimes their "compassion" is only being used as a tool to ingratiate themselves to progressives in order to get close enough to stick the knife in. I truly hate them and honestly see them as my enemy and as the enemy of all that is good in America. Most republican voters are simply deceived by these "republicans". They are the new republicans and don't look like anything a republican was before that asshat Reagan.

Nixon wasn't a total republican ahole. He did some awful things but he also did some good things. Ford was a pretty good guy I think but after that things changed and republican politicians changed so that now they are the enemy.

[olegramps]

80. The fact is that the Republican Party made a deal with the devil at any cost to win.

You only have to read President Eisenhower's 1956 State of the Union speech to see the dramatic change that has taken place in the Republican Party.

The Republicans embraced the worst aspects of our society, racism, extreme fundamentalism, anti-union pro corporate philosophy, hatred of gays, demeaning of women, etc., to gain the support of the ignoramuses by playing on their irrational fears and prejudices.

This is a war for the heart and sole of the Republic and its very survival is predicated on maintaining the Middle Class and providing avenues of opportunities for its expansion. Just as Aristotle concluded in his sweeping review of political systems, the maintenance of a large Middle Class is imperative to the maintenance of a Democracy. Its destruction only leads to tyranny and eventual revolution.

The intent of the wealthy is the destruction of the Middle Class and the economic enslavement of the working class in a return to the Gilded Age of the haves and have-nots. In essence the destruction of the Republic. It is past time to realize that we are engaged in war that threatens the well being of the vast majority as the common good is sacrificed to the unquenchable greed of the wealthy.

[robinlynne]

24. Where is anyone saying the republicans are our friends? It looks like you twisted things a bit

to get to that premise, which you then attack well. But where did your basic premise come from?

I have not read one thread where someone says the republicans are our friends.
or seen any DUers cheering on the republican effort to destroy ACA.

I think ACA is probably going to die. I thought from day one that the mandate to buy insurance, INSTEAD OF offering health care would lead to this moment in the supreme court.

But we don't even know. It is really one man's decision right now, Kennedy. And his questions go both ways.

[kenny blankenship]

26. he gets the volume discount from the straw man factory

can't blame them for trying to economize, what with this shitty economy.

[bart95]

85. straw man factory - lol

i may borrow that one

has 'appeal to spite' thrown in for good measure

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-spite.html

appeal to fear

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-fear.html

and guilt by association

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

[MannyGoldstein]

29. Methinks he's making this up

But perhaps he can provide examples?

[Kolesar]

72. I cannot believe he filled up a page with this...eom

[DonCoquixote]

30. Enemies, yes and no

Let me address this to people who, on the one hand, see the GOP as evil, but on the other, have friends and family in the GOP for various reasons.

You would not let a family member drive drunk. You know that they may not mean to hurt themselves or someone else, but that if you do not stop them from driving off, they can and will.

There are many types of GOP; some may really really believe that they are doing what they do for good reasons. However, while we can look at individuals, we must also examine the group, many of whom frankly speak proudly about the nastiest, crudest ugliest behavior. Go the free republic if you want examples.

Just because we know our GOP relatives may mean well, does not mean we can or should ignore it when many GOP seem to cater to the worst, and do so in a very loud, agressive manner where they intend to cut you off at the knees. Heck, it is one thing to fight, to get agressive even, Boxing was made so that people could get agressive and do so in a reasonably civilized manner. But while your GOP realtive may be the sort that wants an honest boxing match with you, that does not mean you can forget that the GOP does not play by rules, and that they will do their best to cheat.

But most important, as many former GOP know too well, the current brand of Neo-Con is more than happy to attack it's own as they do a liberal. Think of all the seniors who went tea party, some of whom can be your friends and relatives. You know full well that if the GOP decides they are to be shoveled into the flames, they will do so, without one ounce of pity. Yes, we will be the ones who try to save the day, despite the fact that many of our friends and relatives will never understand how the people that conned them were willing to sell them down the river.

[Doctor_J]

34. Agree 100%

they most certainly are the enemy, and anyone who thinks they can be reasoned with, or somehow be brought on board to try to help America or Americans, is either a mole, or too sappy and weak-kneed to be of any help getting the country back. Besides the media takeover by the fascists, the next biggest we are in such dire straits is the appeasement by these good-hearted Dems who go out of their way to "see both sides". We are at war, and we can either fight or lose.

[certainot]

35. if you want to know what republicans are going to try to do turn on the radio

it does the groundwork repetition for everything they do and if the left would stop ignoring radio (recent limbaugh actions excepted) the GOP would finally be destroyed. it made single payer politically impossible, it gave us bush and iraq, global warming denial, and has been trying to get us into iran. all the left has to do is pull out the ipods and stop bending over for team limbaugh and the think tanks that feed them.

[calimary]

81. Wish I could recommend this ONE MILLION TIMES!!!!!

This is the birthplace of the enemy - hate radio.

And yes, unfortunately, I've been driven to concluding republi-CONS are indeed the enemy. To think of them as anything less is to weaken before them. I'm so sick of Democratic naivete. We've seen it on display all week in the reaction to the way the Supreme Court clearly seems to be leaning. "They thought the ACA would sell itself..." "They thought the people would see..." "They thought the benefits of the health care reform would simply speak for themselves and that people would see how it benefited them."

UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE!!!!!

HOW many times are our people in DC gonna stand there still, smiling, and presenting all their nice teeth for the bad guys to kick in, on the presumption that finally, at long last, some among them are gonna play nice? What are they smoking????? These bastards ARE the enemy. They ARE the bad guys. They've been planning, strategizing, engineering, and waging, a very effective propaganda battle against us for at least three decades, and we've done NOTHING to respond or counter-sell. I dunno - maybe our side thinks that the salesmanship part of this is beneath us somehow, and/or that somehow the enemy is really not all that bad or evil or pernicious. But the GOP assholes DO believe in bad things for our country because what they want only benefits the top 1% of the 1%, which is proven NOT to be of any help or any good or any benefit to anyone not part of the 1% corporate elites, and they've been VERY effective at selling their message.

On the other hand, we SUCK at it. Nobody realizes they should have hired George Lakoff years ago to help them understand messaging better, and PR better, and salesmanship better. Our side is fucking naive. Infuriatingly naive! You know there are ravenous sharks in the water but you figure they won't bite you so you jump in anyway - because you just KNOW they'd rather eat fish than humans. Yeah... sure. And I've got some nice ocean-front property in Topeka KS I'll sell you real cheap. You just trust that the scorpion that begged for help getting across that deep, wide river on your back will not sting you because he PROMISED so sincerely that he wouldn't! And then, EVERY TIME, one of yours gets halfway across and the scorpion does what scorpions do - stings. And then you're screwed. Doesn't even matter that the scorpion winds up drowning along with you. Didn't stop him from stinging you anyway because that's who he is and that's what he does. And to assume anything else is simply kidding yourselves.

The GOP are scorpions. That's just what they ARE. And they need to be treated as such, and reacted to as such. They must NEVER be trusted. EVER. They must ALWAYS be watched. ALWAYS. Because they are ALWAYS on the offensive and looking to tear down ANY progress the rest of us has made. If there are ANY among you here on DU who still blindly think they can be reached, met halfway, dealt with as reasonable adults, that they'll deal honestly and with no subterfuge and won't lie or deceive or distort or double-cross you as soon as eric cantor or paul ryan or grover norquist tells them to, or come around to our point of view, You. Are. Wasting. Your. Time.

My experiences and observations force me to conclude that they are lost souls who've been so co-opted by the fairy tale they keep pushing: "just keep voting for us and YOU'LL be rich TOO!!!" How else would so many unfortunate, hapless human sheep be convinced to continue voting against their own interests. They're being sold pie-in-the-sky and they've been so inundated with adverse but well-packaged and ubiquitous propaganda that they don't even think anymore. And then when they lose their homes and their insurance and their teabagger Congressman has nothing more for them than "gee, guess it sucks to be you," they're further inundated with more propaganda that it's really the Democrats'/liberals' fault.

When deregulation happened, and the richest of the bad guys started buying radio stations, what did our side do? Roll over and go back to sleep! NOTHING! Because they figured that - well, the GOP will play fair. They will! And there MUST be a pony under all that horse shit! No. Wake up and smell the coffee - and the horse shit. There IS no pony. There's only IGMFU. As in "I Got Mine, F-U."

And the saddest part, the part that breaks my heart and drives me freakin' NUTS, is that in many ways it actually IS the Dems'/liberals' collective fault. Because TOO MANY on our side were so naive, and figured their opponents are reasonable human beings, with hearts and consciences, who are there, honestly and genuinely, with good hearts trying to help people. AND THEY'RE NOT!!!! And our side keeps falling for it. Just grinds my guts!!!

They ARE the enemy. They ARE the bad guys. And if we don't start treating them as such, and dealing with them as such, we'll just keep getting rolled over and over and over and over. And I don't understand, after all the evidence to support this, WHY our side still doesn't get it. And I do not accept the argument that "oh, no, we can't do that - it makes us just like them!" BULLSHIT. Their ruthlessness keeps winning. And we keep getting rolled. HOW FAR are we willing to keep "making nice" while they monopolize the airwaves, take over the statehouses, jam voter-ID laws down our throats and metal probes up our vaginas? HOW LONG will this be allowed to go on before we start fighting back with the same cold-blooded ruthlessness that is now needed in EVERY political battle, no matter how small or local or seemingly insignificant? Have we not had at least 30 years of templates and examples to study about how the takeover is accomplished? Okay, have our guy at the top being the moral and ethical guy, but underneath and behind him we need our own ruthless take-no-prisoners warriors.

I think we have to readjust our thinking. EXPECT them to do bad things and DAMMIT, BE READY FOR IT AHEAD OF TIME!!! Maybe it takes hiring a few operatives who think like the enemy does, so we can out-think, outwit, and outflank them. Sounds like an old "Survivor" TV show, doesn't it? Well, take a lesson!!!

Remember what Mad-Eye Moody always warned Harry Potter: "CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!!"

[certainot]

91. great rant!!!

[libtodeath]

36. We will fight for economic and social justice.

[img][/img]

[davidthegnome]

38. Enemies?

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. In ideological matters, I am almost always in opposition to most republicans. This does not mean that they are evil or uncaring - as I know it can often seem to many of us here. Some republicans really are creeps, as are some democrats. Most of us though, are relatively decent people overall who are trying to get by in a confusing world, in a modern age of extreme stress... the conservative ideology has appeal in large part because it is so black and white, there is precious little room for grey.

While I may argue, often and loudly with Republicans who I feel are ignorant, that does not make them enemies. Some of my best friends have views severely different from mine both politically and ideologically. It has often been through debate that we have come to understand each other better, respect each other more as human beings. For the most part I find their beliefs inhumane, selfish and often absurdly cruel... but I believe it is due to ignorance and not malice. They do as they believe is right, just as we do.

We are all in this together - ultimately understandings must be reached. Ultimately we must learn to respect each other and find common ground from which to build. The alternative is almost unthinkable. Another civil war? Ideological warfare in the streets? No. Somehow we have to overcome our differences so that we can all strive for a better Country and a better world. It will be a slow process that should prove educational and beneficial to both sides... but we must do something enormously difficult for this to occur.. we must attempt to swallow our pride.

[Poll_Blind]

40. Why don't you tell that to Obama. He's the one who cut the fucking deals with them. nt

PB

[randome]

42. I see where you're coming from.

Especially regarding health care, I think you're right on the mark.

BUT...if we insist that the Republicans are our enemy in just about everything, then they will forever BE our enemy.

I think Obama's attitude is the correct one. I believe he knows that we will never get anywhere by 'giving up'. EVEN ON REPUBLICANS. It is an extremely difficult line to walk but he walks it. I think.

Eventually, Republicans will become so demoralized and powerless that they will move a little closer to the Left. Especially once climate change begins to have its horrendous effects.

That may be heresy on DU but I think that's Obama's game -to de-power our enemies instead of solidifying them against us. And I think it's the correct game.

[tcaudilllg]

44. Many single payer people are actually closet communists

[pnwmom]

45. Or they're wishful thinkers who believe, "things have to get worse so they can get better."

That was Nader's attitude in 2000, and it led to 8 years of George Bush. And, yes, things are a lot worse. But people have been suffering enough. We can't let things continue to go downhill, in the hope that this country will reach the breaking point. That point would only strengthen the authoritarians. It would be the perfect setting for a fascist movement to rise up in.

[robinlynne]

78. Nader's attitude did not lead to 8 years of Bush. Election fraud, and Democrats who did not stand

up to the fraud led ot 8 years of George Bush!

[pnwmom]

79. Nader chose to campaign hardest in the swing states, and got 95,000 votes in Florida.

If only a tiny fraction of those votes had gone to Gore, Bush would never have been elected, much less re-elected.

But Nader welcomed Bush's election, because he said that he and Gore were "Tweedledum and Tweedledee."

[robinlynne]

89. Gore won by a landslide. Nader had nothing to do with anything.

[calimary]

82. The problem there is several layers deep. YES, nader had that philosophy - the only way to

make things better is to see them get a whole lot worse and then people will rise up and rectify it.

Well - not necessarily. Because when you couple that with the FACT that the propaganda war the bad guys have been waging successfully for decades has taken its toll, what you really wind up with is a populace that's become so beaten down that there is no gumption for fighting back. You have the drumbeat, over many years, of "oh, they're ALL crooks." Or "they're ALL the same." And people start to believe that after hearing it parroted to them over and over and over and over and over, over a factor of YEARS, that soon enough, all that repetition starts making it a truism. People begin to believe it and don't question its validity because it's been drilled into them, nonstop, for YEARS, while at the same time there's been NO push-back. When all you hear is one side, and you don't hear anything from the other side, something in you is led to conclude - "well, nobody's saying anything different - so it must be true then."

Example: the naive idiot John Kerry - when the swiftboaters started attacking. Anybody remember that? He held back. Took the high road. Was just SURE that people would somehow KNOW, or SEE, or UNDERSTAND. Decorated, wounded war hero and all that. And he was probably told - don't say anything because you'll just give it legs and keep it going. And he believed and sat on his ass. And with NO push-back from his side, he got rolled. Because the other side did not stop and did not give up and kept attacking - with NOTHING pushing back or refuting, until it was too late. The public conclusion? "Well, he's not saying anything - maybe he has nothing to say? Must be true then. Otherwise he'd be fighting back. What's he hiding?" And by the time he finally woke his sorry ass up and smelled the bullshit, it was too late. He was covered in it too deep to dig out, and the message stuck because he did NOTHING to refute it until it was too late, and the damage was done. For God's sake, John Kerry went TO WAR! Did he treat the enemy there like that? Did he just feel like trusting that those other guys with their guns and grenades and stealth WEREN'T gonna keep fighting because they'd just somehow understand that he was a good guy? For God's Sake!!!!!

The continuing naivete on our side just makes me want to vomit!!! We're about to get rolled on health care reform - after all that fighting and struggle and years of effort. Because NOBODY on our side thought the bad guys would never give up. And we're about to get rolled on a woman's right to choose, too. Because NOBODY on our side thought the bad guys would never give up. We're already getting rolled on voters' rights, because NOBODY on our side thought the bad guys would go there or try that - it just isn't right! It isn't moral! It's not based on any truth or evidence to support "voter fraud"! BUT the bad guys DO these things anyway. We expect them to act and think and react like we do. They don't. And until our side gets that, we're gonna keep getting rolled. Count on it.

[pnwmom]

88. I agree that we don't know how to fight fire with fire. And John Kerry's response

was woefully pathetic.

Good post, Calimary.

[Bluenorthwest]

98. Hey, Senator McCarthy! Did you know that our choices are not 'single payer' or 'what we

got'? Did you know that while we are the only country among our peers without health care for all there are in fact just a scant handful of nations that use actual 'single payer'? France does not, nor Germany. Canada does. Commie Canadians!
The point is that there are many ways to get fully insured as a nation. Few do it 'single payer' style. Many do use mandates, the difference with our plan is that our mandates are the only mandates on Earth to require the purchase of profit making products without any option, and with weak cost controls. Other countries that use mandates make it a crime to profit from those mandated products. Here, that profit is the point and first goal of the law.
Single Payer is the least used form world wide. It is the one sort we did not discuss at all. It was not 'we could not do that, so we did this, the only choice'. Single Payer was not up for discussion here.
A public option was discussed. That got tossed for 'pragmatic compromise' sake and we were told that compromise made the reform a shoo in. It passed! And yet it faces challenge still. The shoo in was not a shoo in.
When anyone tries to frame our choices as 'single payer or mandated for profit products' that person is either sadly uninformed or out to make rhetoric and call names, as you did here. Insinuations, implications, and all founded on nonsensical false binary choices. Can't address the details of the issue, so you make a shot at characterizing others who do not swallow line of 'reasoning'. Commies under the sofa! Make a list! Fear, fear!
Do you really think the Canadians are communists?
Canada is not communist, and it has single payer. Most of Europe does not use single payer, although they do not allow profit from basic mandated health insurance products. Those nation's Insurance Companies make lots of profit, just not from that which is mandated.

[Jamaal510]

47. Not all Republicans are evil.

I believe that the majority of their voters are simply ill-informed and have been conned by the higher-ups in that party to vote against their interests. Most Republican voters are probably of the middle or lower-class, just like us, but they don't know any better. Also, since they tend to live in rural and less-populated areas, it is easy for them to be tricked into believing stereotypes from the RW media about liberals, gays, people of color, Atheists, poor people, etc., and grow to resent them.

It is mainly the elected Republican officials and Conservative talking heads who are our enemy. They are the ones who have likely gotten a decent education, and are now trying to make people into saps so they can protect their own pocketbooks. They make a living out of making the masses believe that it is fine for the government to do things such as lowering taxes on the uber-rich aka. the Job Creators while cutting out crucial safety net programs, and not implementing universal health care.

[Zorra]

51. "We didn't know" is an old, lame excuse for

bringing pain and misery down upon the world, and it is most often a lie.

[Pakid]

48. Republicans are nothing more than spoiled little brats who pretend to care about you when it suits

them. As far as caring about what anyone other than the 1% want they don't care at all. We could be dying in the streets from a pandemic and it would not mean a thing to them. The seniors can stave to death by the millions and they would not be moved to help them. All we are good for is to use as serf for the rich. What is really sad is the stupid ones who vote for these foul creatures. The GOP laughs at them right out in the open and they still don't get it!!!!!

[Maven]

49. They may be the enemy, but that doesn't mean you're my friend.

[samsingh]

50. you're right

i'm well aware of that.

[mercymechap]

52. The only blessing I think will come from the Supreme Court claiming that the PPACA is

unconstitutional is that many people that are currently enjoying some of the benefits that are already in effect, including young college students who will be taken off their parent's health insurance, is that hopefully they will remember who did it to them and they will vote for Obama in November. I have great hopes for another Obama 4 years, and if this is what it takes to get it, so be it. If they declare it Constitutional, which I believe it is, we will still have those voters. It's a win-win situation, the way I see it.

[spanone]

54. k&r... the mandate was their frickin' idea.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

57. Thanks for the timely reminder

People on the left cheering for the demise of ACA better be careful about what they wish for. However well we might do in November, we will NOT get a progressive supermajority in Congress to pass single-payer. If the public opinion is really there for single-payer, then the public will have to get worked up enough about it to elect a progressive supermajority in Congress and a supportive POTUS. Otherwise, it just ain't happening anytime soon. Preserving and building on ACA is the way to go, particularly since the law will enable states to create their own systems as long as they meet or exceed the standards laid down by ACA. Being allowed to implement single payer systems at the state level first might be the best thing for creating momentum for single payer at the national level eventually.

[BumRushDaShow]

58. Amen!

K&R

[magic59]

60. RepubliCons are a dangerous cult

They are responsible for over 57,000 American deaths every year, those who die from lack of affordable healthcare.

[A Simple Game]

64. It appears you don't have a very diverse circle of friends.

Thinking in black and white is very limiting, you should try to avoid it.

The truth is that 90% of Democrats, Republicans, and non-affiliated voters have much in common with each other. It would be much more productive to explain that to people than make enemies of them. We have the same problems, we just need to find common solutions.

[Homer12]

65. Modern Day Republicans and Conservatives are playing for Keeps and are at War with us.

I 100%agree with you.

[Phlem]

117. SHHHH

Don't say that out loud, you might get some of the clipboard DU republican apologists out with pen in hand to check you off on the "he's just thinking in black and white" check boxes all the while looking for Nazi references in your post so as to mark you off on the "Godwin Rule" list.

Cause your opinion doesn't matter.

But I stand with you.

-p

[sulphurdunn]

66. In a world of scarcity

being your brother's keeper requires character and selflessness. In a world of plenty it requires little or nothing, but even that is too much for republicans. They are their own worst enemies.

[1StrongBlackMan]

67. Wow ... Dead and Spot On! n/t

[Aerows]

68. Never did, never will

and will always keep it in mind that they are the enemy. They have nothing good in mind for anyone but themselves.

[Phlem]

122. thank you.

After decades of the same message even looking into the future at the ass hats on display for the R's, someone not afraid to state the obvious.



-p

[Aerows]

123. Don't thank me

I'll always state the truth as I see it, and it doesn't always go with the flow, even here or with Democrats.

I don't require that people agree, or even accept my opinion, but I will always state it. Though usually, I bring a lot of evidence, sources and links with me .

[Seeking Serenity]

69. So my husband is the enemy?

I don't think so.

Fail.

[TheMastersNemesis]

94. Yes He Is

Yes he is because anyone jaded enough to accept even one word of the GOP agenda hates this country. And the way the GOP has screwed veterans over the years is criminal. And I am a Vietnam Veteran and he is the enemy.

[Phlem]

116. +1

-p

[Orrex]

70. Never in my adult life...

Never in my adult life have I encountered an issue on which Democrats were, as a group, wrong while Republicans were, as a group, correct. Sure, there have been plenty of cases when they've both been wrong, but that's another matter.

I'm amazed at the number of smug, self-satisfied dismissals I've seen of the Affordable Care Act here at DU, and its detractors invariably refer to it as Obamacare. I don't know what they think will magically spring up in its place. Certainly not single-payor. Fuck, I can barely afford a checkup even with reasonably good employer-subsidized health insurance. And these knuckleheads are arguing against greater access to affordable care? WTF?


It's like that small but vocal contingent on DU that supports Ron Paul, of all people, because he doesn't want us to bomb Iran, and to hell with the rest of his racist, crackpot Randian bullshit.


Baffling.

[Phlem]

115. I hear ya

Supposed Democrats calling up on Thom Hartman, Ed, and the Norman Goldman shows thinking Ron Paul is all that and a bag of chips.
WTF?
Because he's one of the best statesman (from the from the pile of Sh!t that make up the Republican nominees) was one of the points FOR RP. That's going to come in handy when Soc. Sec. and medicare are discontinued under a RP adminstration.

This is what we're up against, even here on DU.

-p

[Wind Dancer]

73. K & R!

Great post!

[progressoid]

74. Harumph harumph harumph

[TheKentuckian]

77. Nope, never make that error. No bipartisanship nonsense, none of their counter productive policies,

no assimilation of their shitty worldview, no credence to their voodoo economics, no to serving their masters, no concern about appearing "centrist", no adopting their batshit education notions, no even pretending they aren't fucking insane on the environment, no playing like they are remotely serious about governace, no interest in their phony wars, no tolerance for their fucked up assaults on our civil liberties and rights, no trying to tip-toe around them to avoid their tantrums from their fuckwit pols or rank and file, no pretending they are just well intentioned folk that just disagree with me, no taking them seriously other than as a threat.

You better get that messege to the smegheads running the DNC, in leadership, and especially the absurd fuckers in the Senate trying to be in a frat or a country club with their beer call buddies.
It wouldn't hurt for the Administration to take note either.

[bart95]

83. the greatest mistake you can make in thinking

is letting someone else tell you what to think

no matter who it is

no matter why they do it

[randome]

93. Oh, yes.

[Phlem]

112. you are describing the republican base.

aren't you?

-p

[bart95]

119. i meant it without qualification

i meant exactly what i said

[Phlem]

120. I mostly agree with you

but what of the instance where someone is genuinely trying to help.

Because a particular sentence comes out of their mouths, this disqualifies anything else they have to say? Seems to me your closing off all information from a particular source. Surely your confident enough to parse the data that comes through and not so closed minded as to put blinders on?

-p

[Bluenorthwest]

96. Of course the GOP is always the enemy. Now the President spent many months telling us

that they were honest, and they had great ideas which we needed, he insisted that past Democrats were too unwilling to compromise with these, our partners.
He is the only Democrat in my lifetime who has preached to me that the GOP is good. The only Democrat in my lifetime to criticize other Democrats in Congress while also praising Chuck Grassely, Tom Coburn, always 'reaching across the aisle' and the fact is, he said that all the 'compromises' in the reform were pragmatic, as 'this is what we can get done'. As if the SCOTUS did not exist.
So yes, I agree, they are the enemy. I wish you would tell the President that. I just don't trust people who tell me the GOP is my partner. That's just not true.

[LaydeeBug]

97. Honey, the REPUBLICANS had better not mistake ME for anything but the Enemy

Because they got a hundred problems and this bitch is one.

[LanternWaste]

99. I distrust the GOP almost as much as...

I distrust the GOP almost as much as I distrust people who tell me who my enemies should be.

[sudopod]

111. You...I like you. nt

[sudopod]

110. Such black and white thinking is painful to watch.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002481314#post109

[Phlem]

113. yes until

you've spent most of your life around them of which I'm guessing you haven't.

Don't tell me about black and white thinking, your talking to the wrong group.

-p

[sudopod]

125. Your experience is not unique.

Anne Braden lived it during the 60s in Mississippi. I have in more modern times.

[rppper]

124. we don't discuss politics in our family much anymore

to many past arguments...we make fun of the candidates and such, but serious discussions are off limits...it's something we all agreed to after the 200 elections. that way we can still BE a family.....all others who vote for or have an (r) in front of their name are my enemy as far as i'm concerned...i don't make any bones about it...they think the same of me, but it's good to be a big, bald, heavily tattooed liberal...it takes physical intimidation out of the picture on their end....

[Phlem]

126. Same here

and my asshole Mormon Republican father in law is no longer welcome at our house. Yes my wife takes a week off every year to go visit him. As a matter of fact I've expressed my feeling about the R's to my hole family but especially my wife's right wing relatives. They can all eat my ass.

One of them got actually offended, I told them every time they vote R, they vote against my families best interest and that I'm not sorry for anything I've said. I want better for my girl's future, you know the little girl directly related to them.

It's time to take a stand.

-p

[Pedalpower]

128. Before they destroyed manufacturing, there was a need for Republicans...

Back when we had a balanced economy, we needed Cons to act as a balance to the demands of workers.

Now that workers have been broken, there is little need for them. Even they don;t know what to do with themselves. That's why you see them going off the deep end in an attempt to stay relevant.