Remember when Occupy couldn't win?

[MannyGoldstein]

Last edited Wed Mar 28, 2012, 12:38 AM - Edit history (1)

And then it did. Holy @#$%. Now the battle of the 1% against the 99% is on everyone's lips. The battle lines are drawn.

America in the 1920s and early 1930s was similar to today. The 99% were fucked, the 1% owned everything, and zero got done in government. Lots of right-wing nuts running around, too: American Nazi Party, KKK, Father Coughlan, and many others.

Then the 99% got pissed, put FDR Democrats in office, and - HEY-PRESTO - unemployment halved in four years and GDP roared upwards at 9% per year. And the 99% prospered for the next 45 years. We went from despair to success in short order.

Don't let the woodchucks get you down! 20 years of "realist" "Democrats" have harmed us badly. Very badly. But Occupy has shown how if we're in the right, and we hold fast, we can move forward. And it can happen faster than you might imagine.

Excelsior!

[peacebird]

1. Thanks for that reminder!

K&R!

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Indeed, Manny.

I think Occupy is one of the early "symptoms" of the next stage in our evolution, wherein each of us has one-to-many connections with others, unlike anything we've seen in society before, the closest metaphor for which may be a sort of primitive "cerebral cortex" of internet connections around the globe.

[robinlynne]

3. I love your OP, but unfortunately our elections, even our vote counting, everything has been corpora

corporatized and privatized. from the prisons, which have contracts saying they must stay full, to the right wing owned vote counting computers which count 80% of American votes.....

[MannyGoldstein]

4. It's always darkest before the dawn.

Or before the lights go completely out.

I'm betting on the dawn this time around. We'll get there.

[robinlynne]

10. Thank-you for saying that!

[freshwest]

5. Thanks for the perspective and encouragement.

[ProSense]

6. No

"Remember when Occupy couldn't win?"

...I don't.

After Six Months, A Look At What Occupy Wall Street Has Accomplished
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002449584

Action and dealing with reality can produce excellent results.

[ClassWarrior]

8. Of course not. Facts and history always seem to shift around for you.

NGU.

[ProSense]

13. I know

The best thing that can happen to progressives is the SCOTUS siding with Republicans/RW extremists...again.

Luckily, not everyone has lost their minds.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002478348

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002477239

[ClassWarrior]

27. Putting words in my mouth? Is that all you got?

NGU.

[ProSense]

31. Like I said

Luckily, not everyone has lost their minds.

[Maven]

82. PIVOT!

[MannyGoldstein]

9. One of us has a really, really, really bad memory nt

[ProSense]

16. Yeah

"One of us has a really, really, really bad memory"

...the one who's trying to give the impression that there was significant opposition to Occupy.

I can even remember the apprehension that Dems were trying to co-opt the movement.

[sabrina 1]

76. There was and is significant opposition to Occupy.

And there will be more as it grows. Or did you not see the beatings and the near killings of war veterans simply for exercising their rights? And did you not know that many of the mayors who sent out the Robo Cops were Democrats?

And right here on DU there was plenty of opposition to the movement. Not that it matters, it has only strengthened the movement. But to deny there was and is opposition to it, is incorrect.

[bvar22]

89. Everybody here ALWAYS loved & supported OWS!!!!

[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. As I asked you before

Can I use your rose colored glasses? That means all tactical thinking and looking around for cops in a demonstration hoes out the window...completely unnecessary.

[Rex]

96. Same...I don't remember a time when OWS was

on the losing track. Pretty much been an 'all win' for the 99%.

[ClassWarrior]

7. Yeah, the "realists" want us to give up if the ACA goes down in the Extreme Court.

Don't try to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, Dems. Just give up, losers.



NGU.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. And why is that?

Are they laying the groundwork for the craven excuses that will issue from their leaders?

We need FDR, not Chamberlain!

[joshcryer]

11. Are you predicting this will happen?

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Am I predicting that *what* will happen? nt

[joshcryer]

15. I don't see any FDR Democrats, for example.

I'm confused by the OP. It sounds like tongue in cheek derision of OWS but I don't think you intended that.

[MannyGoldstein]

17. Liz Warren is an FDR Democrat

Bernie Sanders. There are others, not many.

There weren't many FDR Democrats in 1930, either. And then there were.

[ProSense]

19. You should

"Liz Warren is an FDR Democrat"

...ensure she gets elected. Sarcasm isn't going to do it.

[MannyGoldstein]

25. Well, 20 years of your approach has worked so well.

Things are just fucking awesome, thanks.

Warren will win handily. And yes, i will help. Already turned one rock-solid Republican into a Warren fan by showing him the YouTube videos of Warren ripping Geithner a new I/O port.

[ProSense]

29. Wait

"Well, 20 years of your approach has worked so well. Things are just fucking awesome, thanks."

...my "approach"?

Why do you keep leaving out Reagan?

I think the last five Presidents were lacking.

You spend too much time creating straw men.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Should Lincoln have fired his failed generals?

After all, it was the Confederacy's fault that they weren't successful?

[ClassWarrior]

34. "Creating straw men??" ROFLMAO... The Chairman says, "See post #13."

NGU.

[ProSense]

35. Why

do you keep posting that portrait of yourself?

Can't make sense without it?

[ClassWarrior]

41. Is that kind of like an incoherent "I know you are, but what am I?"

NGU.

[ProSense]

67. .

Oooh!

[ProSense]

24. Bernie Sanders

...and health care reform: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002482074

Good stuff!

[joshcryer]

32. Yes, there aren't many, certainly not enough to usher in the changes necessary.

[ClassWarrior]

38. Yeah, give up Dem losers.

There's a chance you could fail, so it's not worth even bothering.



NGU.

[joshcryer]

42. Didn't say that. Merely contested the totally deranged prediction.

I would be thrilled if more Democrats were FDR-like. They're not. The ones we do have got elected before OWS came around.

edit: in fact we lost two of them in 2010, Grayson and Feingold. Hopefully we get Grayson back.

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Deranged prediction - how lovely

How many folks would have predicted the New Deal in 1930? At that time, what would be said of those who *did* predict it?

"The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know" - Harry Truman

[joshcryer]

49. So it is a prediction?

I've looked at the Democratic field, people running for office, they are in fact not in any way FDR democrats by and large. It's your same old blue dogs and moderates and center left Democrats.

[MannyGoldstein]

52. Yes. It will happen.

Perhaps not in 2012. But it will happen.

I believe in the decency, intelligence, and ingenuity of Americans - when we're in enough pain. And boy, we're in pain!

[joshcryer]

55. OK, thanks. So you're not predicting this in any relevant time frame.

Fair enough.

[MannyGoldstein]

58. Relevant, but not specific.

Within the next 6 years. Perhaps 2 years, perhaps 6.

[ProSense]

45. Being

"Yeah, give up Dem losers. There's a chance you could fail, so it's not worth even bothering. "

...realistic does not mean "give up Dem losers." You can be realistic and continue to fight.

Sanders: Single Payer Never Had A Chance

Evan McMorris-Santoro

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) reminded the progressive media gathered on Capitol Hill today that single-payer health care reform was dead before it started in the Senate.

“It would have had 8 or 10 votes and that’s it,” he said, addressing a topic central in the minds of many who the bloggers and left wing talk show hosts gathered for the 4th annual Senate Democratic Progressive Media Summit in Washington reach everyday.

Sanders is among the few in the Senate not afraid to say he supports government-run, universal health care. But his calls for such a program have gone unanswered, much to the chagrin of progressives who still feel it is the best way to solve the nation’s health care crisis.

Sanders said it was still possible for single-payer to come to the U.S. eventually — but he said the road will not begin in Washington. If a state like California or Vermont ever instituted a single-payer system on its own, Sanders said, it would eventually lead to national adoption of universal coverage.

Sanders has put forward an amendment to the current health care bill in the Senate that would allow states to use federal funds to create their own single-payer plans, he said.

- more-

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/sanders-single-payer-never-had-a-chance.php

[MannyGoldstein]

51. Might Obama having already given it away to Pharma and Doctors

Have something to do with the reticence?

[ClassWarrior]

56. Continuing to fight is the ONLY realistic approach. As opposed using the word...

..."realistic" as a way to conceal one's mediocrity and a tendency toward Rape-Publican Lite.

NGU.

[MannyGoldstein]

59. Feisty!

Piss n' vinegar.

OK!

[ClassWarrior]

61. I'm sorry. Is that not allowed by our wishy-washy "centrist" overlords?

NGU.

[Dragonfli]

84. I don't think it is, gets me in trouble with them. That's how I know I am

doing it correctly.

[ProSense]

66. Unlike you

"Continuing to fight is the ONLY realistic approach. As opposed using the word......'realistic' as a way to conceal one's mediocrity and a tendency toward Rape-Publican Lite."

...the word "realistic" doesn't frighten me.

[ClassWarrior]

70. Putting words in my mouth again? Still all you got, I see.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

22. I think it's more a matter of refusing to see than not seeing.

NGU.

[joshcryer]

36. I can't even number a handful of "FDR democrats" that aren't already elected.

Warren is literally the only one I can think of off hand.

Bernie doesn't count because he was elected before OWS came around. Any "FDR democrat" elected before OWS doesn't count toward the OP's "prediction."

[ClassWarrior]

43. Do you really want us to believe you're that stupid?

NGU.

[joshcryer]

44. I have no idea what was "stupid" about that post.

[ClassWarrior]

47. You "don't see." You "have no idea." In other words, you keep saying you're clueless.

I'm just agreeing with you.

NGU.

[joshcryer]

50. No, I'm asking for you to explain to me.

Saying that I don't see something means that I lack information that you can provide to me. If you cannot provide me that information then perhaps I can trust my original judgment that, in fact, the information doesn't exist.

[ClassWarrior]

60. Oh, I see. You're saying you're too clueless to get it from all the other posts on this thread...

...that amply answer your question, but not too clueless to ask me to explain it once more.

Yeah, whatever.

NGU.

[joshcryer]

62. No, I'm saying you're patently dishonest.

That basically all you have are insults. It would be trivial for you to show me if indeed I could "get it from all the other posts on this thread." It's called being humble, by simply saying I don't know something, but after re-reading the exchange and with your failure to provide said information, I can say that it doesn't exist, and that any response you conjure will just be spin.

[ClassWarrior]

64. As I said in my original...

...post to you, it's more a matter of your refusing to see than not seeing. Thanks for proving my point.

NGU.

[joshcryer]

68. I have looked at all the Democrats running and Many already admitted it wasn't this cycle.

So I'm sorry but you're been proven incorrect by the OP themselves.

[joshcryer]

71. Try to be more civil, you might actually earn some respect.

As it stands now, not so much. Can't even trust what you say with how dishonestly you framed the argument and how you continually insult me.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Why should I care what you think now? Pointless.

[ClassWarrior]

72. If I misunderstood you, then it's your problem with making yourself clear that's to blame.

I'm not the first one on this thread to speak up about how oblique your comments are.

NGU.

[joshcryer]

77. You're the one who started this saying I "refused to see" then failed to provide evidence as to...

...what it is I "wasn't seeing." I already explained to you that the Democratic field for the 2012 elections does not represent FDR-democrats. It should be easy enough for anyone who saw that response to understand where my argument was going.

Instead of connecting and attempting to have a discussion, though, you just repeated the insults.

You can't blame someone else for your own failing.

[obey]

18. Nice dream

Where do we find FDR Democrats again? There hasn't been one since....well, FDR.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. There weren't many in 1930, either.

Liz Warren is the best we got right now.

It is said that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. Likewise, when we're ready, more FDR Democrats will appear.

[ClassWarrior]

23. +1. We get the leaders we deserve.

NGU.

[MannyGoldstein]

30. I'll +1 your +1!

Solidarity!

[joshcryer]

39. Yes, I want Warren for 2016.

But I do not see many FDR democrats on the rolls for election this time around.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

20. Love Your post!!!

"If There Ever Was A Time" - Third Eye Blind

"Just The beginning" Michael Moore:

[midnight]

53. Enjoyed both of these-thanks...

[Zalatix]

26. Please and that with, "Let us pray."

If you're not religious, then "Let us hope."

[FirstLight]

28. :)

I needed that! Viva la rEvolution! <3

[Zax2me]

37. I'm all in.

[midnight]

40. Great post.... Let's hope this happens faster than we can imagine...

[pa28]

46. Occupy changed national dialogue and priorities almost overnight in a way I never thought possible.

A public movement in support of a single payer / Medicare buy in is no different. As you mentioned the idea of single payer is massively popular. Until we stop drafting medical insurance reform policies in quiet rooms with only lobbyists and politicians at the table we'll never have a real solution.

[MannyGoldstein]

54. Yes! nt

[WillyT]

57. K & R !!!

[scheming daemons]

63. What has it won? Not a damn thing yet....

[ClassWarrior]

65. Yeah, you bunch of progressive Democrat losers!! Take your loser tents and get off my lawn!!

NGU.

[MannyGoldstein]

73. Please go get a good night's sleep

The morning will be brighter.

[scheming daemons]

75. Until we have elections in November, it is very unclear what - if anything - Occupy has "won"

If the GOP wins the White House and Senate... what would Occupy have accomplished? .... seriously... what?

[MannyGoldstein]

78. Americans are now aware that the 1% is screwing the 99%

There's still time for the Democrats to return to being the party of the 99%. Huge credibility gap to overcome, but doable.

[scheming daemons]

81. I don't know a single American who wasn't aware of that before

Maybe I just hang around enlightened, intelligent people.



I agree with every goal of Occupy.... but has it just been "preaching to the choir" or has it changed the minds of ANYONE?



Do you know anyone whose political viewpoints have changed because of Occupy? I don't.

[Zorra]

94. Yes, absolutely, it has changed the minds of some people I know.

The actions of Occupy that are directly responsible for bringing the conversation to national attention enabled me to easily create relative conversation and frankly discuss the problem of the 1% with people I know that were basically apolitical before.

Now, they are sometimes bringing new relative conversation points to me, which means they have been thinking about the subject, which has actually led them to speculate upon other problem areas of our planetary dilemma.

Many people have a much greater awareness of 1% control because of Occupy.

[eridani]

102. Non-Rmoney repubs who used occupy arguments against the mittster?

They turned on a dime, and Rove even went after them for going off message.

[ClassWarrior]

79. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because, like Antonin Scalia, you've made up your mind...

...and there's no room for ANY of the dissent that so characterizes the Dem Party.

Hmmm... Interesting.

NGU.

[joshcryer]

80. Occupy has changed the landscape, that's unquestionable.

What I found hilarious was the comparison to todays Democrats to FDR Democrats. They share no similarities, they're entrenched, center right, for the most part. The places we do flip (and we will flip them thanks to Occupy changing the narrative), they won't be highly progressive folks. That's just the reality.

[EFerrari]

74. Right on, Manny.

[Dragonfli]

83. Thanks Manny, I only wish the woodchucks didn't completely own the party.

They talk like Republicans and argue like Republicans. Occupy has to overcome two parties not one.

Here's to the memory of actual Democrats like FDR

[MannyGoldstein]

86. It's in our hands

We must work to replace the Chamberlains with FDRs.

[Dragonfli]

92. I know you are right, and it must be an organic social need that overwhelms the populace

I see the organic uprising in OWS. I personally only have one more election cycle, maybe two with luck and then it will be in the hands of younger healthier hands.

I did so want to see it, but my internal organs and Lymph nodes have other plans for me I fear.
Try to keep them positive, and keep telling the truths learned in the thirties that they would bury in history now, the kids hear mostly bullshit now days. they need older people that remember what has been tossed in the memory hole of re-written history.

I admire your positive attitude and perseverance, It's good to know there are Democrats left that still remember what it was supposed to be all about.

[NuttyFluffers]

85. positive thinking is a good thing.

i support it.

[slipslidingaway]

87. Thanks and kick n/t

[ProSense]

88. Speaking of

Occupy, here's something that needs action:

Contact your senators and tell them to repeal subsidies for Big Oil
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002483960

[Dragonfli]

93. Done, both email and left messages with staffers /nt

[MannyGoldstein]

101. Why wasn't that bill proposed when we held both houses of Congress

and it had a chance of passing?

[SidDithers]

90. Remember when you said the one election in the last 40 years you would have reversed...

was when Obama beat McCain?

Not when Reagan beat Carter. Or when Bush beat Gore.

The election you most wanted to have reversed was Obama vs McCain.

And then you call others "woodchucks" and "realist" "Democrats"?

Sid

[randome]

95. THUD!

[MannyGoldstein]

100. Sometimes I feel that way. Sometimes not. What's worse:

a wolf, or a wolf in sheep's clothing?

[hughee99]

97. Unemployment halved in just 4 years of FDR?

In 1938, unemployment was 19%, in 1940, even after we became the "Arsenal of Democracy", unemployment was still over 14%.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html

[MannyGoldstein]

99. 1933: 24.9% 1937: 14.3% Reduction: 43%

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_US_unemployment_rate_in_1930

It did go back up in 1938, because FDR stupidly started to pursue "time to eat our peas" austerity, but even then the figures generally used don't count people employed by the WPA and similar programs (presumably because in today's fringe-right atmosphere, government jobs don't count and discrediting FDR is fun) - I can find a reference for this if you'd like.

This "eat our peas" episode was probably FDR's last major non-Liberal move. He then realized that Liberal policies work, and he stuck with them.

[Blue_Tires]

98. kick

[Canuckistanian]

103. LOVE the woodchuck reference

These so-called "pragmatists" drive me insane. They're nothing but apologists for the 1%.