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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSpanking children... acceptable or not as discipline?
Last edited Tue Apr 15, 2014, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)
And to what degree?
My three year will occasionally get a small, light swat to the backside as reinforcement that he did something wrong, but I have never (and will never) go for the full blown over the knee spanking.
We generally discipline using time outs, which are working for the most part.
Edit: Keeping the top intact and not changing a thing, but I apparently failed miserably in what I said we do. There is a discipline theory that involves capturing young children attention along with clear explanations of what is wrong. The attention/reinforcement comes in the form of loud clapping, deep voices or physical touch. The touch is probably better described as a tap then a swat and is used along with a sentence like "No! We don't xxxx!"
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flvegan
(66,280 posts)
Coventina
(29,731 posts)I was going to say: I predict greatness for this thread!
Which, I think is a direct quote of you!
flvegan
(66,280 posts)the "discipline" some DUers have to not let us down.
Coventina
(29,731 posts)Do we need to start one of those?
TheCowsCameHome
(40,270 posts)But it's worth a try.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)
Separation
(1,975 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)taken their balls and gone home.
woodsprite
(12,582 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)do the spanking at Olive Garden?
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Coventina
(29,731 posts)
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts) 
yuiyoshida
(45,415 posts)You know... right at this very moment, I really and truly have popcorn..in front of me.
I like it with spicy sriracha sauce on it. 
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)It is gonna be awesome.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I have two kids, 12 and 5, and neither have ever been swatted, spanked, or otherwise hit. They are wonderful, bright, lovely, kind, empathetic kids.
Edit: Not that I'm biased.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)
elleng
(141,926 posts)Any lesson taught is likely to be that 'spanking,' and other sorts of violence, are acceptable, and successful. They are neither.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)VScott
(774 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I also wouldn't consider all forms of physical punishment "child abuse".
A light spanking, a slap, not a huge deal. Does it accomplish anything? Not sure about that.
idendoit
(505 posts)Since you hit your three year old 'occasionally' does that make them a recidivist?
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)Then maybe you don't need to swat. I never hit my son or daughter. Have only ever given maybe two timeouts ever. They're 9 and 7 and their teachers and neighbors are always commenting on how well behaved and polite they are. Maybe I just lucked out with easy going kids?
Chuuku Davis
(607 posts)Can be very effective
My daughter moved in with us due to her finances
4 mo, 2.5 yo, 4 yo boys
Three swats now in 6 mos
The swat to stay away from the mousetrap didn't work
But the mousetrap did. 
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)in a home with three children under four?
And he now just looks at traps and says 'owie"
They learn quickly
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Shame on you.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)the greatest teacher in human history.
Chuuku Davis
(607 posts)Mousetraps don't break fingers
Walk away
(9,494 posts)
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Is a "swat" an acceptable way to communicate with an adult?
But the mousetrap did.
And yet you already see just how ineffective that swat really is. 3 in 6 mos is 3 too many, IMO.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Coventina
(29,731 posts)Lots of nervous giggling in the audience, as I recall....
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)newcriminal
(2,190 posts)James Spader was so sexy in that movie.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I believe in sitting the child down and talking about why their behavior is wrong instead of spanking them. I still resent my parents to this day for spanking me.
The bruises and the belt across the bare ass is NOT the way to go.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)She used one of those paddle ball paddles and they stung like hell. My older sister would just laugh at her, which would just make her madder. My mother broke the paddle on her butt more than once.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Just kidding...but your experience sounds just like mine, and your sister sounds like me. 
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)My mother loved to lay down and take afternoon naps. She would also make us take a nap too. My sis Jo would wait til mom was asleep and get us all up. Then, it was free for all time. The things that would get us in trouble would be tearing up the kitchen playing restaurant, looting my mother's closet for clothes and using the table leaf for a runway to play fashion model in the living room and calling each other names. Our other favorite game- re enacting the daily episode of "Dark Shadows" (Jo always had to be Angelique) didn't usually get us in trouble.
Jo's favorite name to call us was "pig" and my mother hated hearing it. Jo got her butt beat more than anyone. But the one time she got it the worst from my mother- and she must have learned it from school, and I don't even think she knew what she was saying meant, but she hollered out "EAT ME RAW OR NOT AT ALL" and my mother went off.
Boy, the things you remember huh?
Dad's punishment is an entirely different story, his favorite line was "line up" and "who did it"?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)get those paddle ball toys every year in our Easter Baskets.
After the elastic broke, the paddles were used as weapons on our asses.
and yes...they hurt like hell.
Fla Dem
(27,633 posts)Look, I am not in favor of physical punishment on young children, or any children at any age. But I have to say, my Mom used a paddle (sparingly) on me and my 3 siblings. You only really had to be swatted a couple of times, (never on bare skin) to know where the line was YOU DID NOT CROSS. We've all grown up to be healthy, well adjusted adults who have raised healthy well adjusted children. And no, none of us used a paddle.
So much more goes into parenting than just reward and punishment. No one action will make a child grow up abusive or loving.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)My dad knew exactly what he was doing. I disagree completely with your assertion
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Walk away
(9,494 posts)It can take a few generations for a family to evolve enough to recognize abuse. That is why child abuse often runs in families. Let's hope you are the last generation to practice it.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I resent my parents to this day also. My father hit me often. I remember my first real 'spanking' when I was 18 months old. It was so traumatic I remember every minute of it. And I was never spanked for a 'good' reason. Usually it was because of some tantrum my dad was having or some whim of his about how I was somehow 'making him look bad' by, you know, being a kid (talking too loud, asking too many questions...) I remember almost all of these instances and now, as a parent myself, I can say that what he did was wholly abusive. I have never, ever hit my kids. Not even a 'tap'. Hitting is the lazy way of parenting. There are SO many alternatives out there.
I have 4 kids - those alternatives work. My youngest is now 7 - my oldest will be 17 in a few months. Everyone in my family and my ex's family thought I was NUTS for not spanking. I often heard about how 'spoiled' my kids were going to be, that they lacked 'discipline' and that I was 'letting them get away with murder'. Even my ex wasn't on board at first. He is now. He was telling me the other day how he can take them ANYWHERE and they ALWAYS behave. He sees his friends' kids and can't believe how horribly those kids behave (yep spanked). I get compliments on my kids all the time from everyone - teachers, relatives, parents, coaches etc. I'm not just being biased - they pull me aside and gush about my kids. (I'm WAY harder on my kids than they are, that's for sure!) All of them are honors students, my oldest 2 babysit and my oldest has a job, volunteers, participates in LGBT activism and is a pretty cool kid. I'm super proud of them. Best of all - my kids LIKE to hang out with me. When I was a teenager, I was never at home if I could help it. My kids will come sit in my room and chat with me for hours. (and yes, I know the difference between 'being their friend' and 'being their parent'. Being their parent doesn't mean I can't treat them like the awesome human beings they are).
Anyway, IMO, spanking just teaches that might makes right. And it teaches you to become a really good liar (ahem, yep, that was me) to get out of a good swat. It also teaches you that you are worthless and that your parents are NOT safe - the very people you must rely on cannot be counted on. It messes with your head, that's for sure.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)Millions of children across the span of humanity have been on the receiving ends of spankings and at least one or two of them have turned out well...
Saying it never works on children is asinine.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Especially those who are weaker than us.
There is no justification to hit anybody.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)... but the idea that corporal punishment never works is factually untrue. As stated above, untold millions of children have been on the receiving end and have turned into productive adults.
Let me guess... they all did that in spite of the terrible soul scarring that a paddling inflicts?
I don't respect people who use emotional hyperbole so that makes us about even.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Oh. Wait...it doesn't.
You were saying?
People who beat those weaker than themselves have no business calling themselves a liberal.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)It still applies....
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)it's OK with the parent that his kid grows up to "behave", not because it's the right thing to do, but to avoid punishment.
Sort of the same as some religion.
To a kid: "If you're bad, you'll get a spanking"
To a religious person: "If you're bad, you'll go to hell"
That takes away the motivation to be a good citizen unless someone is watching.
Oh, and the other thing...I was slapped and kicked by my parents when I was a child. I may look FINE on the outside, but you know what it taught me? That I can't ever do anything to make someone else mad, because they'll hit me. As an adult, I know that's not true. Well, mostly.
Emotional scars don't have to be devastating in order to disrupt a person's life.
Bettie
(19,704 posts)I'm the same way.
I hardly ever say no to any request, because I'm afraid.
I know it isn't good for me, but the fear response is so deep that it is hard to overcome.
On the plus side, I'm super good at reading people and can tell when they are getting mad.
But, the scars are there and I'm just trying my level best not to do that to my own kids.
I'll never spank them. Never.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)it gets sort of awkward...for me, anyway...
I spanked my kids.
I was young and stupid and only disciplined them the way my parents did me.
Older and wiser now, it breaks my heart when I think of it. I would give both my legs if I could go back and change things.
I've apologized to them many times for being a shitty mom. They've said they forgive me.
I can't forgive myself.
Bettie
(19,704 posts)I yell. I'm working on doing it less, but I do it.
But, I never get physical.
I still worry that I'm doing it wrong.
Dang, I wish they came with a manual. I have three boys who are not 'traditional' boys. They have no interest in sports and it causes them social issues in our small town.
My oldest is very emotional, which will be good for him when he learns to control it better, but at 13, he's just so sensitive it makes him a target for bullies and I have no idea how to help him. And, even though, intellectually, I know it isn't really my fault, I blame myself for not making him tougher or stronger or whatever.
We all think we're bad moms at some point.
I'm sure you weren't a terrible mama, you were probably one of us in the large middle ground, doing the best we can, loving our kids, but stumbling along the way as we try to do it right.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)*sniff sniff*
Thank you...
That's all we can do, is our best...
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)is a result of their being hit rather than in spite of it.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)That's logically null...
Equal and opposite is that every child who didn't receive a spanking and grew up ok did so in spite of their lack of proper discipline.
See how that works?
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)which was not "logically null" as you put it.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)... is that just declaring that every child in the history of mankind who was spanked and turned out fine all just overcame is just as silly as declaring the exact equal and opposite.
It's utterly and completely not provable... but maybe that was the point?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I always hear 'fine'. Usually what it means is 'not in jail'. Guess what - the vast majority of kids who are severely abused usually 'turn out okay' - does that mean abuse is not harmful? Fuck no.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)I would suggest that your bar is a bit too low...
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)reading comprehension - try it!
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)... whatever random standard falls from your mouth?
If anything all it shows is your personal definitions.
That's just odd...
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I also see you have a method of twisting things. Reminds me of someone...welcome to DU.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)Rather if you say silly or obviously unprovable or illogical things, you should expect to be called out on them.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)...DESPITE being exposed to violence as a coercive tool. We should be thankful, huh?
eridani
(51,907 posts)Others get bitten by cottonmouths and survive. I wouldn't argue that the experience was good for any of them.
treestar
(82,383 posts)is pretty hopeless.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Godhumor
(6,437 posts)Like a clap-growl (loud clap by the child) to get attention, a tap on the fanny can focus the child. Literally, tap "No throwing the ball at the cat!" Not a spank in any form other than it is a hand on the rear.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Should I not have sex with my wife?
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)RandoLoodie
(133 posts)and they lived under my roof . . .
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)instead of a hand to the rear (which is still striking the child no matter what one wants to call it), how about taking the child and making firm eye contact.
Focus....
"No throwing the ball at the cat!!!"
What I'm saying is there are better ways to get a kid's attention...like very close face to face eye contact...than striking him or her.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)There were times that I was so angry that all I could do was laugh. Seriously. Nope. My motto was "I don't have to beat your ass because if you don't listen, you're going to beat it yourself."
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He never touched me because I was the only child his mother accepted.
It's never acceptable to beat children.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)And the second tome wasn't a swat, but rather me grabbing her by the arm and dragging her sulking spoiled teen ass out of bed to do whatever chore it was she was refusing to do. Yeah, I am a monster that way.
Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #25)
Post removed
BigDemVoter
(4,700 posts)Just to get a small child's attention, but not even sure about that. . . .
A full-fledged spanking? Definitely NOT. . . .
There was a study done years ago that showed that parents in the American South beat their children far more than in other areas. . . The chief instruments used were the switch and the belt. . . I wouldn't be surprised if that were still the case today.
We were beaten with both for many different types of infractions. Were they effective? Hmmm. No. Isn't the purpose of a spanking to "correct" behavior and prevent it from being repeated? We just learned not to get caught.
The same goes for schools. When I was growing up, PUBLIC schools were allowed to paddle kids. The offending child was taken by the teacher out in the hallway; the teacher got another teacher as a witness, and the kids left in the classroom would hold their breath until a loud, "Bam, bam, bam" echoed from outside the classroom. The offending child would usually come shamefaced back into the classroom but wouldn't remain out of trouble. Usually the SAME kids were paddled repeatedly. I suspect they were beaten at home too.
I got a spanking in front of the class in the seventh grade for running in the hallway. The teacher was a WWII vet with a deformed arm. He paddled me with the deformed arm, and I laughed at the absurdity of the situation--14-years-old and getting a paddling with something that looked like a ping pong paddle swung by somebody who could barely hold it. . .
So, in conclusion. . . Spanking or not? I go with the NOTS here. It only reinforces violence; it causes severe resentment; it shames children, and it only leads to children going the extra length to not get caught.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)has some benefit for under some circumstances - others it serves no purpose. When I see how some school districts have criminalized childish misbehavior - I can't help but think the old fashioned paddling would at the very least be a lesser evil to arresting, taking finger prints and mug shots and in some outrageous cases registering young kids as sex offenders. Now which approach would obviously carry more long term psychological damage?
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)Oldest graduated college and is now working for the university, one in college studying engineering, one going to college this fall accepted into the honors program, one straight a freshman that has her heart set on Harvard, and the baby a free spirited straight a artist. None of them have had any drug problems, legal problems, boy/girl problems. Hell, the worse I ever got was an eye roll. NOT ONCE WERE THEY SPANKED.
theboss
(10,491 posts)I have no drug problem and I may have a Jack and Coke once a month now.
I was spanked.
Oohhhhhh
The power of my anecdote just took a flamethrower to the power of yours! Huh! How ya like me now?!?!?
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)I never stated people can not grow up well while being spanked. I think it does damage them but some still grow up to be productive adults( not sure about your case). Most pro spanking people have the mentality of spare the rod spoil the child, I was just stating that you can spare the rod and still have wonderful productive children/adults. It's probably time for your nap now, better at least pretend to sleep or else mommy or daddy might get a switch.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)to anything else, and it worked for me. I learned not to do the things that I was swatted for. I was never beat, but did get a swat. This was before time outs were invented, but we did have the same thing in "go to your room", which was a first step. But I do have a friend whose child refused to go to "time out" when told, and I don't know how you discipline a child who thumbs their nose at attempts to correct them.
I believe that a swat is more of a way to get their full attention more than to hurt them at all, if it is done properly. It startles them but isn't hard enough to hurt more than feelings.
I could say more about discipline and the children of today, but I am sure that I have said enough.
handmade34
(24,017 posts)NO! never...
Happyhippychick
(8,422 posts)Someone feel better about hitting. That's what it is, hitting a child. At least let's be honest.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Every time I hear someone say it's just a tap I know it's bullshit, and suspect it's a cover up for something far worse than most would consider acceptable, pro spanking or not.
I don't agree. My kids would get a "potch on the tuchas" once in a blue moon; like when they were about to run out into the street. I know it didn't hurt them because the response I would get was "Huh?" It IS an attention getter and far from a beating.
I find it disingenuous to equate that with a beating with a switch, belt or paddle, or even an over the knee spanking. I was never spanked as a child and honestly, the look I would get from my mother and the "I'm disappointed in you" was far more painful - it would send me sobbing to my room. Believe me I would have preferred a tap on the behind.
I think the method of discipline depends on the temperament of the child. For some very high spirited children a firm voice isn't even heard. I find a scolding loud threatening voice much more abusive than a little tap on a clothed bottom.
kcr
(15,522 posts)It makes me suspicious because why hide whats going on here? If you have no problem causing pain as an "attention getter" then what are you ashamed of? Call it what it is. Don't sugar coat it.
It doesn't depend on the temperament of the child. Another rationalization that I find abhor ant. Are some children more sensitive to pain than others? The truth is that all children, regardless of temperament, will take some time before they're developmentally ready to learn things like not running into the road to the point where they can be trusted not to do so. It has nothing to do with temperament and smacking them will not change that. They look at you and go "Huh?" (I've NEVER seen a child react that way to a "tap" They cry, because it hurts. More vomit inducing rationalization for hitting) because they're scared and confused. They don't know what they did wrong.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)is way different than mine. My children never cried, nor did they even pout, nor were my potches pain inducing. You must have a heavy hand indeed.
kcr
(15,522 posts)You tapped your child. What is the point of tapping if it doesn't cause pain? Tapping a child would do absolutely nothing. Pointless. Because kids wouldn't mind being tapped. That would be no different than a hug. A tap is the same as a pat. You pat your kids on the head or the shoulder for things like praise ant attention. But tell yourself that you tapped them and it didn't cause them pain if it makes you feel better about what you did. Spanking is used because it hurts and no one likes to be hurt.
Twisty twisty twisty. Alwyas when an argument is lost. You think I ever deliberately caused my kids pain? I know you'd like to think so because it's another tactic to make oneself feel better about their own choices and rationalize them.
Ms. Toad
(38,637 posts)physically preventing them by grabbing them by the arm is just as effective as an attention getter. And, if you can reach them to swat them - you can reach them to restrain them.
The only "swat" my daughter received was from my father who gave me the same nonsense. She was behaving dangerously near the edge of the pier. Same response - if you can reach her to swat her, you can reach her to physically remove her from danger. You then have her attention so you can make sure she understands why what she was about to do is wrong, dangerous, etc.
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)She wasn't raised with much care and has a bit of a temper, so when we had kids and talked about discipline that was one absolute rule - if there was any kind of spanking to be done, it would be done accompanied by explanation and not anger. Our kids were spanked a few times, more symbolic than painful, and always with full knowledge of exactly why. I am more prone to disappointment than anger myself, having no temper really.
I suppose many things didn't go very well (with the kids and with the marriage), and I have plenty of regrets and second thoughts about the whole thing (they're 14 and 18 now, and the jury is still out on how well we did for them), but at least there was that.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Why does the physical touch have to be a whack? Why not just put your hand on the arm?
Bettie
(19,704 posts)A lot of that is due to my history. I had parents who spanked. I generally had bruises up and down my back and legs most days and I was the 'best behaved' of the three of us.
But it did teach me to watch for cues of oncoming violence and to always smile and do whatever was asked of me.
For my own kids, I never want them to look at me with fear. I don't want them to feel what I do for my parents.
So, we use alternative discipline, though really, they seldom need it. Really, the worst thing they do is fight among themselves and forget to get their laundry to the hamper.
Also, spanking seems counter intuitive to me. Hitting someone for hitting his brother is just weird.
We've used time outs when they were little, but honestly, talking about what they've done and why it isn't appropriate or correct behavior works just fine.
Now, I must read a bedtime story to the smallest of my three boys.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)Just how stupid is.......
*thwack* Don't *thwack* hit *thwack* your *thwack* brother *thwack*
Yes, brilliant strategy for teaching a child not to be violent.
Also, spanking seems counter intuitive to me. Hitting someone for hitting his brother is just weird.
My direct answer to the question is, NO, violence is never proper. In. Any. Form.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)my stepfather beat the shit out of my brothers and me. When he wasn't near enough to a strap or belt or paddle or stick or he just used fists. Until I finally grew bigger than him. It only taught me to despise him. And how not to be a stepfather.
My stepsons were spanked before I came into the picture. I never spanked them or my daughter and I wouldn't allow anyone else to do it.
My oldest stepson asked me to be best man at his wedding. One of the proudest moments in my life so far.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)For good reason. Studies have found it changes the brain and can have negative effects for a lifetime. No hitting, no physical punishments of any kind should be tolerated.
We don't even do punishments. It is not necessary, effective or understood with a young child.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Godhumor
(6,437 posts)It is reputedly very effective with toddler aged children.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)"Hey kid, we're going to go into the grocery store. Do you remember what the rules are at the grocery store? We don't grab. We don't raise our voices. We stick close to our cart. We don't ask for treats that aren't on the list." Get the kid to repeat the rules by rote. Add and adjust rules as necessary.
Little ones are pretty eager to please, but they're genuinely befuddled by the changing complexities of adult rules much of the time. Telling them what's needed before they get into trouble and get frustrated and upset saves a lot of headaches. So does learning to avoid situations where they are hungry, tired or overwhelmed and heading trouble off at the pass. A lot of time what seems like defiance is just being so overwhelmed that their brains BSOD on them.
Making scary noises at them? Toddlers are sensitive! Of all the toddlers I've ever dealt with I think about half of them would burst into inconsolable tears or pitch a tantrum if somebody made a startling scary noise at them, even if they weren't already overwhelmed and upset. While upset? Closer to 90%. Seriously, that's a perfectly awful idea.
handmade34
(24,017 posts)for explaining the sensible way to treat children... I am flummoxed that so many people think it is okay to hit a child...
...be a responsible, caring parent, explain rules and the consequences for not adhering to the rules (age appropriate)... and carry through with the consequences (not hitting)... this takes a lot of time and energy and kids are worth it!
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)If throwing a fit gets you what you want one time out of ten kids will throw fits. If it works zero times out of ten they'll figure it out and find a new tactic.
Once you have firm and well established rules you can have exceptions on your own terms. But being inconsistent just confuses kids. I know a lot of people think they're doing the kid a favor but they're not. They need structure and routine, which was a hard lesson for me to learn because I'm not really wired that way by inclination, so I was kind of a late convert to basic stuff like firm bedtimes. Could have saved myself a lot of grief if I'd listened to that bit of advice earlier. Oh well.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)pointing out the bad behavior of other children and their parents.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I made lifelike miniature dolls of my children and would just tear the heads off with my teeth and glare at them.
wercal
(1,370 posts)But I understand what you mean.
The example I use is the busy parking lot. Constantly I witness kids getting out of a car and sprinting into the drive lanes. The (I'm sure well meaning) parent yells their name and usually ends up frantically screaming at them to 'get back here'.
What's wrong with some negative reinforcement in this situation? We know that people learn better when more than just auditory senses are used....so why not add some sound...and touch. No - not enough to hurt them. That's why its done on the bottom - its a lot more bark than bite.
Will the kid remember it...resent you...etc? I don't know, but that's kind of the idea - you want them to remember what not to do in a parking lot.
And frankly, its probably less upsetting than the frantic screaming.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Any kid young enough for that to be a problem is going to be in a carseat and need an adult's help to get out of the car, so an adult is already right there.
All of these scenarios that are supposed to excuse hitting seem to be doing a better job of proving that people who hit do so because they're not actively parenting otherwise.
wercal
(1,370 posts)It happens all the time. Usually while the parent is pulling an even smaller kid out of a car seat.
But it was just an example. I can think of mwny others if this ine iw not believable.
I believe the OP is genuinely concerned with their child's safety....and does not have a sadistic desire to hit kids. Do you?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)parking lot.
With a baby and a toddler? You get the baby into a carrier (or the cart, or stroller, or securely held, however you happen to roll) and then you unbuckle the toddler. If you've got a toddler who is unbuckling themselves without help and taking off the problem is that they're in a booster (or no seat at all) when they should be in a harnessed seat, which they can't get out of by themselves. Also the back seat child locks should be activated with children that age, so they shouldn't be opening the car door without an adult's help.
In other words you have to have a whole string of adult common sense failures before the failure of a toddler to obey and show sense even becomes an issue. Hitting due to failure to parent.
A. You continue to fixate on the semantics of one example after I told you not to.
B. You never answered the question.
kcr
(15,522 posts)This is rationalizing for a bad parenting method and it only serves to make a parent feel better about the the choice to do it. If a child is old enough to understand that it is dangerous to run out into a parking lot then there is no need for it. If they aren't old enough, then parents need to supervise until they are. Spanking only serves as a release for the panic and tension of the moment when the parent realizes that a dangerous situation was just narrowly avoided due to a mistake. Mistakes do happen. No parent is perfect. But it isn't an excuse for bad parenting decisions. Telling themselves afterwords that it was necessary as a learning tool is baseless rationalization and nothing more. I never spanked my kids. They didn't get run over and they learned not to run into the street at the same age as other kids.
Jasana
(490 posts)Do you go up to a stranger and spank them? No you don't. That would be assault and some could even make the claim that it's sexual harassment. As a former Union Chief Steward, I would argue that claim in an arbitration. I would go after the spanker with every gun I had.
And children are not property. I believe (if we survive climate change) we will evolve to a better understanding of childhood psychology and law and yes, spanking will become illegal and defined as sexual abuse.
I suggest any parent who spanks a child read the following article. While it hardly takes the strong stance I've taken, it gives lots of good starting advice about it. Link: http://life.familyeducation.com/parenting/spanking/45304.html
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)I believe most parents that spank do so in anger, not for sexual enjoyment. This even offends me, and I have never spanked a child.
Jasana
(490 posts)What age do you think it's appropriate for parents to introduce children to a sexualized behavior? And no, I'm not talking about a light tap here and there or once in a blue moon. At what age should you stop? There is an age when most parents stop. Why is that?
It is not appropriate to hit your spouse in anger, is it? In any case, I think it's even less appropriate to hit someone less than half your age, maybe a quarter to half your weight, and usually twice as small and doesn't dare hit you back... most especially if you're angry.
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)I can't believe others haven't called you on this crazy post.
As to the rest of your post, you obviously haven't bothered to read this whole thread considering several times I have said I don't agree with spanking children at all.
Jasana
(490 posts)better. Totally my fault.
As for my "crazy post", perhaps I caught them at the wrong time. Perhaps they didn't even see it. Perhaps they are thinking. I noticed you didn't answer my 2 questions in my 1st paragraph. Probably because the 2nd paragraph was worded so badly and made you feel attacked. All I'm saying is... just think it through. I realize it's a provocative stance in this day and age. You have no obligation to answer to me. Just think it through some more.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)not even close.
My kids have been hit for doing dangerous terrible behaviors. As adults they are fantastically well adjusted and both of them thank my wife and I for being tough on them, they say we made them better people.
(Can't wait for someone to say our tough discipline brain washed them or some other such nonsense).
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I don't know how old your children are, but we've learned a lot in the past few decades. Spanking is never acceptable, it is physical abuse.
You should never yell at your kids either.
No one is saying that a child can never grow up well adjusted having been spanked, but more often it causes harm and physical negative changes to the brain. And, it is unnecessary.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)This OP should be hidden.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)mine is different, guess we are equal.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Glad your kids are doing well. Glad you don't currently have any to beat.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Creative and interesting allegations...
Jasana
(490 posts)They're out there.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)correctly.
Kablooie
(19,107 posts)
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)My son now is a freshmen at Tufts University. He smart and polite, outgoing and respectful. My daughter is a high-school sophomore. She has a keen intellect, abiding interest in the society and the world, strong opinions that she can defend fiercely.
It never once occurred to me that I wanted to strike my children.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)It depends on the child and it should only be used to get their attention - as I've found necessary to do with my son. My other two children have never needed a spanking or a swat across the bottom. They listened and knew I wasn't playing around when I disciplined them.
I don't believe shouting at your children is a good tactic, either. My Mom used to shout and nag all day when I did something wrong growing up and I learned how to zone her out and not hear her - just like my four other siblings. In fact, we used to chuckle and make fun of her - behind her back, of course.
My father, on the other hand, was an old-fashioned disciplinarian and he used the belt - raising five kids alone after my Mom ditched us meant it was a necessary evil. But guess which parent I respected and loved the most? Hint: it wasn't my mother.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 16, 2014, 12:27 AM - Edit history (1)
My father, on the other hand, was an old-fashioned disciplinarian and he used the belt - raising five kids alone after my Mom ditched us meant it was a necessary evil. But guess which parent I respected and loved the most? Hint: it wasn't my mother.
I'm sorry you had to deal with all that.....my situation wasn't as bad as yours, TBH, but my own father still had his issues, and he was always harder on me than my mother. I still love my dad but I've always been closer to my mom.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)If it's not meant to harm, it isn't abuse. I can say that much......of course, it's always good to be careful.
If my opinion means anything, I think you're doing fine. 
tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)for not running out into the street sweetie!
Sure, that will work.
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)I had friends that walked the straight and narrow because their fathers would literally beat the shit out of them if they put a toe out of line. I thought it was kind of sad really but these guys were straight A students out of that fear.
I always thought spanking taught a lesson that violence solves problems, might makes right and bigger people are allowed to hit little people.
I was never hit, I turned out fine. I never hit my kids, they're fine too.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Did not work. Why bother trying it on my kids? It just made me anxious all the time. I still feel angry about it sometimes.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Where that point is, that line, I'm not sure. Certainly south of torture, infliction of lasting pain, bodily harm. But is it justified, in some form, at times? Yes, it is. And it is the parents' decision.
I got a spanking, a real one, once in my life that I can remember. It was for doing something I had just been told not to do. It was over my dad's knee with a belt. I screamed and cried, but I got the message. And I never did it again.
I don't have kids. But I have been involved with my sisters' children. And I have seen the need to the let the child know you're serious. My impression is you either punish destructive and forbidden behavior, or you grow a monster.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)There is never a need to use physical force. EVER. A monster is not grown from a lack of physical abuse. The opposite is more often the case.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)is not using physical force?
What do you do when you send a child to time out and they refuse to go?
In my world, you pick them up and then put them in their time out spot. How many times and how sternly do you speak to them? Do you lecture them? Do you withhold stuff?
Is that not using physical force?
I think this entire conversation is beyond absurd when there are people where who equate a "potch on the tuchas" with a beating?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Nor is there a need to yell at them, which has been found to be as harmful to their mental well being as physical abuse.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)I've never had to restrain a child either. But what happens if they refuse to go to time out? Some kids do lose control. I know what I used to do....
My kids used to laugh at me if I tried to yell; they thought it was funny. I guess they weren't afraid of me.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)
egduj
(881 posts)
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)SheilaT
(23,156 posts)to use violence on others. It clearly demonstrates that if you're bigger and have more authority, you can do whatever you want. It leads in almost a direct line to things like torture.
No, I am not saying that parents who spank are necessarily torturing their children. I am saying that spanking is just one point on the continuum that leads to torture. There is a lot in between.
Probably the pertinent thing to ask is not simply is it okay to spank children, but would that behavior be okay in the workplace? Is it acceptable to spank co-workers? No? Why not? Oh. They are big enough to fight back. So it's okay to do violence to those littler than us.
Think about slavery. That was a form of institutionalized violence and control of others. In slavery, it was acceptable to perform all sorts of "punishment" and violence on other human beings. But that's no longer acceptable, at least not in most places. So why again is it okay to do this to children? Really?
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Should I tell Sheila in HR that she can't use her iPhone if she doesn't let me give her a bath?
I'm definitely not saying that spanking is right; I'm saying that the analogy doesn't work.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)it makes sense you restrict her iPhone usage until that's accomplished. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your authority over Sheila doesn't extend to her bath.
But since whatever you need to persuade your co-workers and subordinates to do is important to the job, you need to figure out how to do that without resorting to violence. Unfortunately, there are far too many in the workplace who are bullies. More unfortunately, workplace bullying is too often tolerated.
With young children there are ways to control their behavior without spanking. One good way is to change their environment and remove certain dangers. Or control them, as in my example above of carrying my very young children in a parking lot or crossing a street if they wouldn't hold my hand.
Oh, and when they're really young you need to limit explanations. A two year old really doesn't care much about hurting little Bobby's feelings. Just say NO! and figure out a way around what's going on.
When my oldest was about three he had a little friend and they got along famously, except for one particular toy the other kid had, which they'd fight over, crying and hitting each other. That happened about twice, and after that, whenever we came over to that house, the mom put that toy in the closet and the problem was solved. They played cooperatively with everything else except the one, and so we took it away. No need to spank or even yell.
Sometimes you have to be a little imaginative to make it work. There do have to be some sort of punishments or consequences to bad behavior. If Sheila in HR stops bathing, she may well lose her job because of the decline in her personal grooming. She might not be able to afford her iPhone any more. In any case, you don't need to control that. Same with kids. Appropriate consequences work. Maybe not immediately, but over time.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)The question that is put forth asks if I would smack someone in the office to settle a disagreement or to get her to behave a certain way. Aside from the fact that I'm not a person who hits people, the law states clearly that such an act is illegal and would likely land me in jail.
I'm not aware of any state in the union that outlaws basic corporal punishment of one's own children, deferring instead to the parents' judgment. This constrasts directly with behavior in the workplace, so the entire foundation of the analogy vanishes.
Again, I'm not arguing in favor of spanking children. I'm simply taking issue with the analogy.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Ex Lurker
(3,966 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I would never in a million years hit a child.
It's illegal what you're doing, btw.
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)I know of no state where spanking is illegal.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)as they still spank in school.
newcriminal
(2,190 posts)Not the "spanking" that the op is describing.
Earth_First
(14,910 posts)It's the result of my upbringing in which we were spanked as children for 'disruptive' behaviour which was generally children being children.
My father and I are just recently rebuilding our relationship some twenty years later from which I'm sure deep down is attributed to the fear instilled by my father's heavy-handed approach to parenting.
I do not want that for our daughter. I don't want to lose twenty years between us because i was incapable of controlling my emotions and being unable to communicate in a constructive manner to correct a behaviour which is unacceptable from our parental ideals.
Violence is never constructive.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)THANK you! Funny we don't hit adults when we want to capture their attention so why the HELL is it OK to do it to a defenseless child?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Kids aren't going to hit back, and if they do, it won't hurt.
Also, kids aren't going to file criminal assault charges against us like, perhaps, a neighbor would do if we slapped the guy for piling his leaves up on our lawn.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Please explain how a legally independent adult is equivalent to a minor child who is the legal responsibility of a parent or guardian.
I'm not arguing in favor of corporal punishment. I'm pointing out that the analogy doesn't make sense as an argument against corporal punishment.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Somewhere in the distant mists of time past, our caveman ancestors realized that it was way easier to give names to members of the tribe than it was to throw rocks at their heads to get their attention...
B Calm
(28,762 posts)a paddle with little holes drilled into it to deliver more of a sting. To this day, I still think he was my best teacher even though I was paddled in front of the whole class.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)everyone on the football team that had bad conduct grades got "licks" in the locker room in front of everyone else. a public caning of sorts. not a fan of corporal punishment generally. I have seen it be the only thing that worked with some kids (of what was tried) but I still think it is kinda fucked up. but I really don't feel that strongly one way or the other. but unlike your teacher mine sucked. not because of the paddling, just a bad teacher.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)when the point is to control? If you don't want a child doing something, either send them to their room or hold on to them until their behavior subsides. But pick your battles. You don't want to be restricting their movements for every little thing. I would draw the line at actions where they are a potential danger to themselves or others.
raccoon
(32,390 posts)did.
And again IME, it's most of the time about the kid just being a kid.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)And now it's on to spanking?
I didn't realize it was Wedge-issue-thirty already.
Time to adjust my Outrage Watch.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)
FSogol
(47,623 posts)Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
(How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation
(What's in it for me?)
(Paying for a benefit)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
(Social norms)
(The good boy/girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
(Law and order morality)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles
(Principled conscience)
When you spank a child, you are using violence to change behavior. That's level one. Even dogs can achieve #3 (although most stay at 2). Why treat a child like that? Strive for #6. Teach the child to behave correctly because it is the right thing to do. No violence required.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)FSogol
(47,623 posts)Orrex
(67,111 posts)Otherwise, how will they learn?
Orrex
(67,111 posts)By then, the pendulum will have swung again, and not-spanking will always have been as self-evidently wrong as spanking has always been self-evidently wrong right now.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)Spankings were always as much, usually more, psychological punishment than physical.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)you're already a failure as a parent.
The. End.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)I raised four bright, caring, engaged children who are now adults (one with children of his own). To say that I was a failure as a parent is absurd.
Damn, I hope you're not a parent because being raised by such a judgmental, self-righteous know-it- all is far more psychologically damaging in the long run than being potched on rare occasions.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)My first-hand experience gives me expertise in the subject.
Too bad you couldn't figure out a better way of "correcting" your children that you had to resort to violence. Tell me, do you hit adults too when training them? Of course not. Why? Because they'd kick your ass. However, children are defenseless and don't have the strength to fight back. It's why cowards/bullies hit them -- because they can.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)that never makes sense to me...
People "raise" their kids, and when they don't do a good enough job, the kid gets the slap or swat or whatever.
If the kid is "bad", well, who the hell made him that way? If the parent didn't do it, then it must be something physically or mentally wrong with the kid, in which case, it's even more disgusting that the kid is being struck for misbehaving.
It all makes as little sense as someone not house-training a dog and then spanking the dog when it pees on the rug.
TBF
(36,669 posts)by your statement "being raised by such a judgmental, self-righteous know-it- all is far more psychologically damaging in the long run than being potched on rare occasions"
Now please define judgmental.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
I was only spanked once as a child when I was seven years old.
It didn't hurt, it was not done in anger, but it drove home that I had done a grievous thing.
I didn't use spanking on my children as a routine disciplinary measure. My children were not afraid of me, nor did they fear a spanking. I may have tapped (yes, tapped, not smacked) a child once or twice while rearing my four children...times when I thought it was appropriate. Yes, I know that you think it's NEVER appropriate
However, I do not JUDGE others, especially if they are not inflicting harm on their children. As I have said before, psychological abuse is far worse than an occasional potch.
TBF
(36,669 posts)the assumption that psychological abuse is occurring. You don't have to justify your behavior to me. I think it's interesting reading all these rationalizations though. If you have to go to such great lengths to explain why something isn't wrong maybe you should reconsider whether it is right/wrong.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)judgmental in proclaiming that I was a bad parent. That's why I said that I responded in kind. My children are grown and fine, I really don't feel the need to justify my behavior. (I did not rationalize anything)
Being overly judgmental is psychological abuse.
Why do you find it necessary to examine my motives?
TBF
(36,669 posts)Someone addressing you. You replied to a random person with your rationalizations. You must feel guilty about something.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)You replied to a random person with your pop psychology?
You must feel guilty about something, according to your reasoning.
TBF
(36,669 posts)and that was not true. I didn't lie to anybody. But your need to defend her is interesting.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)She was responding to a blanket accusation, so her statement was true. Your need to attack her (and to analyze my motivations) is interesting.
TBF
(36,669 posts)in fact I find this whole thread fascinating. All this justification, rationalization and attacking others - such a need to control.
In fact that is what you are doing when you demand that children listen to you under threat of violence. Control. It is especially rampant upon republicans who will throw tantrums, hit things, shoot things - all in their efforts to control everyone around them. I wonder if you find that interesting as well.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 16, 2014, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)
As is always the case in these threads, there's a lot of post hoc pop psychology about "a need to control" as well as a lot of clever rhetoric to equate a single literal tap with a protracted literal bludgeoning. If it makes people feel better to cast the first stone, well, bully for them.
I suspect that what they compassionately dismiss as a "need to control" is often a matter of desperate parents in desperate circumstances overwhelmed by the stress and hardship of life. Although hardship certainly doesn't justify abuse of a child, it reveals that the issue can require a more nuanced solution than the scolding refrain "what terrible parents!" Incidentally, likening such parents to Republicans speaks of a need to control through shaming. Hmm.
Again, lest you imagine ambiguity where there is none, I do not condone the spanking of children. However, I recognize that reality is often more complex than can be determined from a quick glance in a supermarket check-out line followed by self-righteous finger-wagging.
TBF
(36,669 posts)let's take away the psychology behind it and not pronounce judgment on parents.
Answer this question for me: Why is it illegal to hit an adult but legal to hit children? I understand the US may have laws I don't like - but what I am interested in is the moral justification of hitting others. If someone pisses me off in the supermarket, to use your example, I have choices. If it is my child I can hit him/her. If it is an adult running into my cart or some other offense I control my temper and do not resort to violence. Why the difference?
Orrex
(67,111 posts)And honestly I don't have the will to dig through 50 states' legislative history, but in a nutshell I would say that it's because children are the legal responsibility of their parents whereas random adults are not. That responsibility affords greater latitude in handling matters of discipline, as long as such discipline does not exceed the levels deemed acceptable by law.
I would ask the reciporical question: why should the relationship between a parent and a minor child be treated the same as between the parent and a random adult? Should a parent have authority to make medical decisions on behalf of a random adult? Can the parent invest the adult's money on behalf of and without the consent of that other adult?
Outside of your question, in which it is assumed that the two different relationships are equal by default, why must we insist that they are?
TBF
(36,669 posts)then why do we not allow parents to hit adult children? Why does it change when they turn 18? Then the child could turn around and press charges.
Also, if being a child is different why are we not allowed to hit other people's children? I guess in many states that is allowed in schools. Should it be?
I can understand different classifications and know the laws apply that way, but I still don't understand the moral justification.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Again, I'm not arguing in favor of spanking.
You can't hit adult children because the law recognizes that they have legal responsibility for themselves.
You can't hit other people's minor children because you don't have legal responsibility for them (unless you do, via in loco parentis or formal legal guardianship).
As for the moral justification, society as a whole seems to have determined that some level of physical discipline is acceptable and that it does not have a serious longterm negative affect upon the children. We can debate that point, but I submit that it's still the basis for the thinking.
TBF
(36,669 posts)"As for the moral justification, society as a whole seems to have determined that some level of physical discipline is acceptable and that it does not have a serious longterm negative affect upon the children. We can debate that point, but I submit that it's still the basis for the thinking."
I would argue many of the points within that first sentence but I do think you're right that this belief is held by many. Thankfully 37 sovereign countries have gotten beyond that. I am hopeful the others will evolve as well.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Because the immediate response is that 163 (or whatever) sovereign nations aren't doing it. If 37 nations are right, then 163 nations must be 4x as right, right?
Until clear longterm harm can be proven (and it hasn't been), then a lot of people will continue to use corporal punishment to some degree or another, on the grounds that it's not a big deal, and I suspect that many of those people will insist meanwhile that they don't do it at all.
TBF
(36,669 posts)slavery, suffrage, capitalism ... it is interesting to think about why people resort to violence when there are so many other options open to them. This may be a topic that will always baffle me.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)But one wonders about the persuasive value of citing whatever number of parties engage in a certain desired practice. A majority might not automatically be right, but a minority isn't automatically right either.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)I'm not generally in favor of spanking but good grief there is a lot of people on high horses on this thread. Self righteous is on the money.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)At what age does a parent start spanking? Or hitting...or swatting...or whatever one wants to call it...
and at what age does a parent stop spanking, hitting, swatting, etc.
Seems to me if the goal is to get the kid's attention, it would make more sense to do it at puberty, when they're really getting into some shit that's stupid/dangerous.
If a three year old throwing a ball at the cat deserves a swat to the bottom, how about a 14 year old caught drinking or smoking? Or maybe stealing something?
The 16 year old caught skipping school for the fifth time?
Are those not just as serious as throwing a ball at the cat?
When does a parent stop hitting his kids to "get their attention"?
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)or emotional swats?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)is about physical swats, that's what I mean.
Although emotional ones can hurt as badly and leave a scar that never ever heals.
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,186 posts)Which makes them cowards. Spanking is child abuse.
Just because your parents did it doesn't make it right. Segregation was once the norm too, luckily we progressed (or at least we're trying to).
redqueen
(115,186 posts)philosslayer
(3,076 posts)How do you make him understand that biting is bad?
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)There was always a sort of warning sound before she bit. One time when she made that sound, I placed her forearm near her mouth and she ended up biting herself. She was startled. I went out and got her "bities" (teething rings) and we had one pinned to her clothes so that whenever she had the need to bite, she would use her bitie.
Even though she was told several times that it hurts people when she bites them, she didn't understand. I think I may be accused of being an abusive parent by some here. Oh well. My daughter and I are very close and she doesn't hold it against me that she bit herself.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)You used pain to effectively reinforce to your child that biting was bad.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)You managed to get the message through without yelling or hitting her, even despite repeatedly telling her that it was wrong.
Not sure why anyone would fault you for that.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)turn them to face you (and if they look away, repeat in a calm voice, "Look at me. (Name), you have to look at me now. This is serious."
Using a very adult tone, and not the sing-songy 'talking to a kid' voice parents often use, you simply say it to them straight. "You hurt (other child's name). Do you realize that? You hurt them. You can't do that, (child's name). Do you understand? It is wrong to hurt other people. You wouldn't want them to hurt you, would you?" etc.
Continue to discuss this as long as you can hold their attention, or until they appear to register that this isn't some business as usual, everyday (don't throw your food, don't draw on the wall, etc.) kind of issue. It won't work if the parents/other caretakers yell at them all the time for every little thing. It also won't work if its done using that sing-songy tone, either. It has to really stand out to the child that this is a serious issue.
Even very young children understand much more than we give them credit for. Discipline is not hard, and it does not require hitting or even raising your voice. My two girls never threw a fit, not once. Not at home, not in public. They never fight. They argue, but there was never any hitting, not even pushing or shoving. (This despite their seeing their dad going after me on occasion - I have since left the relationship.)
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)Every child responds differently.
Question; what if they look away? What do you do if it's obvious that they are not listening to you?
How long do you hold on to them? How tightly do you hold on to them? How close do you put your face to theirs when you are 'explaining' in your 'adult' tone?
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Of course you can't physically force them to look at you. Turning their shoulders toward you at first is a way of communicating the seriousness of the situation, not a way to correct other deficient parenting methods.
Refusal to listen and pay attention is a serious issue in itself, and if that isn't resolved then there are far bigger problems in the relationship than the isolated behavior you're attempting to correct.
If a child refuses to listen to you on a consistent basis that requires a lot more time and energy than addressing an incident like biting.
As for your other questions ("How tightly do you hold on to them? How close do you put your face to theirs when you are 'explaining' in your 'adult' tone?" I'm sickened you would even ask. Parents who need that explained to them have no fucking business even working with children let alone having their own.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)and their insinuations. Yet you feel free to make your own. Welcome to the mirror; don't like what you see?
Somehow I think this will be lost on most.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Try this on an 18 month old. See how well it works. Didn't do a bit of good in my case.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)As with the other incidents, I didn't have to correct the behavior more than once. And usually only with one child, as each seemed to learn from the others' experience.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)Did you have the other child observe when you were explaining?
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Your questions are disturbing, not to mention hostile and accusatory. I'm done engaging with you.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Just because that particular method worked for you doesn't mean it works for every child. Some 18 month olds just will not respond to a "stern talking to".
redqueen
(115,186 posts)and pretend it's a behavior problem when it's actually a failure to provide adequate guidance, teething rings / toys, etc.
My hostility is because the questions that person was asking are fucked up.
And I didn't give them a "stern talking to" - I talked to them in a serious tone of voice, not as if I was some cop or power-tripping parent who loves to yell at and scold their child for every little thing. And often that is the source of the problem. Either they set hardly any boundaries and then try to overcompensate when there's a real problem, or they want absolute control of every little thing and the kid ends up just tuning them out entirely. And they all want to blame their kids.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Right on the face. He was 18 months old. So thats MY failure?
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,186 posts)Spanking is a form of violence, violence begets violence. He was possibly just acting out based on what he learned was acceptable at home.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)So you're implying I either a) bit, or b) hit my child. Are you really that clueless? Have you ever been around young children? If you think they are born perfect little creatures who just emulate what their parents do, then I would suggest you haven't been.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)lol!
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)who was asking "fucked up" questions. You missed my point entirely and I explained above.
And no; my daughter wasn't teething, she bit when she was angry or frustrated and there is no way in the world, at her age that she understood the times I talked to her about it. I suppose now you are going to claim that I messed up the way I talked to her, that I did it wrong.
I had four children and each needed to be treated uniquely. I don't believe in 'formula' ways of teaching children appropriate behavior or safety concerns. BTW, that biter daughter was valedictorian of her high school, a National Merit scholar and now holds a PhD. She calls me several times a week to chat. My son, (the one she used to bite) is married with children himself and is a terrific dad. I'll remember to ask him if I ever damaged him emotionally or physically. None of my children consider physical violence as a means of resolving issues.
None of my children ever feared me or assumed that I would hit them if they misbehaved even though at one time or another I may given them a little potch.
Sometimes I have to laugh at the extremes of people's opinions.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Seemingly rational adults judging the motivation of 18 month old children. And to back you up, my biter is a junior at Giant State U. majoring in Mechanical Engineering and doing quite well.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)They won't let him graduate until he gets that under control.
True fact.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)my nieces was a biter when she was preschool age. Terrible tantrums, biting, etc.
One time she bit my mom, who (very inappropriately, I think) bit her back.
Everyone assumed she was just a nasty little brat, but my sister kept at the pediatrician until he ordered a bunch of neurological tests for the kid.
Well guess what...she wasn't a brat after all. She had some sort of abnormality in her brain. They got her on meds and the tantrums and biting stopped.
She is now doing well as a bright and beautiful 14 year old.
If a kid is a biter, what I would do is consult with professionals (it can be done online, even) to see what behavior modification might work. If it doesn't work, then maybe there's a physiological reason.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)TBF
(36,669 posts)the US could learn from them:
Malta (2014)
Honduras (2013)
TFYR Macedonia (2013)
South Sudan (2011)
Albania (2010)
Congo, Republic of (2010)
Kenya (2010)
Tunisia (2010)
Poland (2010)
Liechtenstein (2008)
Luxembourg (2008)
Republic of Moldova (2008)
Costa Rica (2008)
Togo (2007)
Spain (2007)
Venezuela (2007)
Uruguay (2007)
Portugal (2007)
New Zealand (2007)
Netherlands (2007)
Greece (2006)
Hungary (2005)
Romania (2004)
Ukraine (2004)
Iceland (2003)
Turkmenistan (2002)
Germany (2000)
Israel (2000)
Bulgaria (2000)
Croatia (1999)
Latvia (1998)
Denmark (1997)
Cyprus (1994)
Austria (1989)
Norway (1987)
Finland (1983)
Sweden (1979)
http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/progress/prohib_states.html
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)scolding.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)teaching the child anything.
i was slapped as a child and all i understood for it is that my mother was not mature enough to have children. when she was mature enough (with the last child), he was not spanked.
TBF
(36,669 posts)and punishable under the law. I cannot fathom why it is not the same for children. Absolutely blows my mind that people can be so violent and stupid. All it "teaches" is how to hit. Great lesson!
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)But always be sure to make them pull their own switch.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And hence, the sins of the fathers are the sins of the sons...
OregonBlue
(8,215 posts)will not harm their little minds and might save them from harm. I had to swat my overactive (bi-polar) son occasionally to keep him from getting hurt. I actually spanked him one time and he has never forgotten it. He's now 35. The swats he doesn't even remember. So no, do not spank.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)I'd warn them verbally first, but if behaviors like trying to touch hot stoves or running out into the street were becoming an issue, I'd spank them. When I caught my three year old son trying to stick a knife into a power outlet, he was spanked. The idea was that there is nothing wrong with associating pain with behaviors that can genuinely cause physical injury. Better that they fear a spanking than they get hit by a car or electrocuted.
Outside of those rare instances, I never hit my children.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)you are an abuser.
You should have explained to that toddler in a serious adult voice the consequences of completing an electrical circuit with his little body. I'm sure he would have understood that better.
can't find the sarcasm smilie....
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Because hitting and "serious adult voices" are the only two options available? For the under-educated and sub-literate, quite possibly...
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)in the circumstance of a toddler, a knife and an electrical outlet? Of course you could do nothing and let the kid learn by 'experience'. Or maybe one should merely swoop the child out of harm's way and assume that he will never try that again.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)a smart parent would do the following:
Long before the child is born, take a look around at the potential hazards that could harm a toddler and make plans to deal with them at the appropriate time...
and then...
toddler-proof the house as much as possible. They actually sell little plastic outlet covers that are nearly impossible for toddlers to remove.
keep knives out of the reach of toddlers. They actually sell kitchen drawer locks to keep toddlers out of the silverware where danger lurks.
Madam Mossfern
(2,340 posts)and I can assure you that no matter how toddler-proof you think you have made your home, they will find a way of getting around it. My third kid could open any child-proof lock or bottle...we ended up taking off all the knobs from all the drawers and doors in the house.
Just because you child proof your home, doesn't mean that other people have done the same. Kids get into stuff, they do that.
Thanks for letting me know what a "smart" parent would do. My children certainly must have led charmed lives considering they survived so well with such a stupid mother.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)it was a stupid question...what does a parent do when his kid sticks a knife into an electrical outlet...
If the parent has already considered that may happen, he takes steps to ensure that it won't.
And if you're visiting the home of someone who hasn't child-proofed their home, you bring a playpen or some other restraining device.
Or you watch your kid like a hawk.
Or, if other peoples' homes are a real concern, you invite them to your home.
I also raised four kids....two of them were mine, the other two were my younger sister and brother, born when I was 21 and 17, respectively. My mom worked, so guess who got to watch the kids... which was fine seeing as they and my kids were so close in age.
So, yeah...maybe it's not possible to totally toddler-proof a home, but parents who care about doing it get down on all fours, and look at their home from the viewpoint of a small child. Then they do what they have to do, to help prevent tragic accidents, and lessen the chances that a kid will get hit for getting into something he shouldn't have.
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,186 posts)The fact that you had exposed power outlets in a home with a small child was your first mistake.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)I actually did have outlet covers on all of our unused outlets. He yanked a lamp cord out of the wall and opened one up.
No parent can "proactively" head off every dangerous scenario their kids might be exposed to without wrapping them in a bubble.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Got to love these threads for their brilliant hindsight!
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,186 posts)
Obviously you can't prevent every accident, and some of them provide valuable lessons, much more valuable than learning that human on human violence solves anything.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)"A child who falls and hurts himself learns not to fall. A child who is never permitted to fall down learns nothing."
My son learned not to play with outlets. The behavior was never repeated. My method worked, and he's neither scarred nor violent nowadays.
kcr
(15,522 posts)It's such a shame. All the stories in the news about the unspanked, electrocuting themselves.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I'm glad your kid turned out fine, kids are resilient. However, as a society, we are moving increasingly towards zero tolerance for battery of a child. And for good reason. The science is clear that more harm than good is done and it is unnecessary.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Communication and patience are the key to disciplining a child. If one feels compelled to spank, it's most likely because one lacks either or both of these two key components of parenting (either at that precise moment, or as a whole).
Additionally, unintended consequences may easily arise from even the lightest spanking (e.g., a child moved suddenly to avoid the retributive strike resulting in a rotator cuff rupture to the child or even mild bruising-- both of which validly warrant an investigation from CPS).
I freely admit benign bias as I was a TX CPS caseworker for three and a half years in the late nineties (had I stayed any longer, I would either have gone into depression or started drinking... or both). Not very difficult to conclude which calls were actual abuse (far too many), which calls were simply predicated on angry ex-husbands looking to cast their exes in a bad light (again, far too many), and which calls were merely concerned neighbors or passers-by interpreting an incident without full context (not as many as one might expect).
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)even when parents say they are against spanking, they also say that they have resorted to it. Even these days when it's pretty much out of favor. So there's a disconnect.
No need to spoil the child and indulge them when they are behaving badly.
Anyone who doesn't know how to discipline without spanking, check out Supernanny. She tames em (and their parents too).
No
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Although the fact that this is such a difficult concept to grasp even here on DU speaks volumes to the violent culture in which we live.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)But consider that we used to see defenses of bullying here (e.g. 'it teaches kids to stand up for themselves', 'it builds character', etc.) and that's a lot rarer these days, so things are changing, just very slowly.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)if you want to teach them that physical dominance and violence is the way to get people to do what you want them to do.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)understand why they are defensive. Those were different times and hitting children was common. So was domestic abuse, spousal rape, etc. We have grown and evolved as a society. Developments in science and understanding of child psychology have made very clear that hitting a child is wrong, does damage, and unnecessary.
Anyone who hits a child in 2014 is lazy, ignorant and engaging in unacceptable abuse. It is battery and it is battery of the most vulnerable. There is simply no excuse for a parent to hit their child in this day.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)things have been lately in my family...well, involving a stepdaughter, her husband, and their 3 year old...
You know who I want to hit?
The parents.
Family get-togethers, once so much fun and enjoyable are becoming ever more unpleasant as time goes on.
Stepdaughter, who has been saying since the age of 18 that she couldn't wait to get married and have kids, now has her wish, and I suspect that this may be a case of "be careful what you wish for...".
I can't think of but one time that the granddaughter didn't have a screaming meltdown at some function or another. This past weekend there was a surprise birthday party for Mr Pipi at a real nice restaurant...almost 40 people were there (besides about 100 regular patrons in the main part). Things were OK for a while until the party was wrapping up, somewhere around 7:30 PM or so. Then all hell broke loose as the 3 year old, unrestrained by a parent, went on a screaming and yelling rampage fueled by tiredness and sugar.
I'm sorry, sweeties...when you have a kid, you don't get to hang out with the other adults like you did pre-kid. No. You scoop up the wild animal and bring her out to the car to calm down. Or, you leave.
Two days later there was a small birthday gathering at the oldest stepdaughter's house. As usual, when seated at the table, said 3 year old proceeded to pound on the table with her plastic dish, and then tried to grab a butter knife to put more gouges in her auntie's nice hardwood dining table. Then things got worse...high pitched screeching, whining, and kicking at the table, hitting her father, and more.
This went on for some time until her mom, looking frustrated and somewhat resentful at having to leave the festivities, finally took her kid into the other room where she could tantrum without breaking the eardrums of the rest of us.
I'm just the step grandma...I can't say anything.
I've spoken to my own grandson the one and only time he got wild in a restaurant.
But when it's not my place to say anything, I feel powerless and a hostage to shitty parenting.
And I want to slap the parents for thinking they have the right to inflict that crap on other people even if they're used to it in their own homes. I mean, not even a "Please use your inside voice"! Obviously that concept is not being taught.
ugh.
Response to Godhumor (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)I think some forms of corporal punishment are acceptable.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)AcertainLiz
(863 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)AcertainLiz
(863 posts)I think corporal punishment is more humane and kind honestly.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You are going to have to clarify. What is "mild corporal punishment?"
Would the level of physical punishment change with the crime charged? What is the range? I suppose you are a death penalty advocate as well.
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)Mild, as in mild physical punishment.
"Would the level of physical punishment change with the crime charged? What is the range? I suppose you are a death penalty advocate as well. "
Yes I think it would change due to severity, and I do advocate for the death penalty.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)What physical punishments are you calling for with respect to each crime? Other than death, which you support. And, what crimes would you like to see people killed for?
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)Canings for higher ones. Thats a start. Throw some crimes my way and I'll see what I think.
Murder and such should be punished by death.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I'm done with your archaic bullshit.
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)Bye
treestar
(82,383 posts)have an affirmative defense for discipline. of course with modifiers and qualifiers:
§ 468 Justification — Use of force by persons with special responsibility for care, discipline or safety of others.
The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable if it is reasonable and moderate and:
(1) The defendant is the parent, guardian, foster parent, legal custodian or other person similarly responsible for the general care and supervision of a child, or a person acting at the request of a parent, guardian, foster parent, legal custodian or other responsible person, and:
a. The force is used for the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the child, including the prevention or punishment of misconduct; and
b. The force used is intended to benefit the child, or for the special purposes listed in paragraphs (2)a., (3)a., (4)a., (5), (6) and (7) of this section. The size, age, condition of the child, location of the force and the strength and duration of the force shall be factors considered in determining whether the force used is reasonable and moderate; but
c. The force shall not be justified if it includes, but is not limited to, any of the following: Throwing the child, kicking, burning, cutting, striking with a closed fist, interfering with breathing, use of or threatened use of a deadly weapon, prolonged deprivation of sustenance or medication, or doing any other act that is likely to cause or does cause physical injury, disfigurement, mental distress, unnecessary degradation or substantial risk of serious physical injury or death; or
(2) The defendant is a teacher or a person otherwise entrusted with the care or supervision of a child for a special purpose, and:
a. The defendant believes the force used is necessary to further the special purpose, including the maintenance of reasonable discipline in a school, class or other group, and that the use of force is consistent with the welfare of the child; and
b. The degree of force, if it had been used by the parent, guardian, foster parent or legal custodian of the child, would be justifiable under paragraph (1)a. and b. of this section and not enumerated under paragraph (1)c. of this section; or
(3) The defendant is the guardian or other person similarly responsible for the general care and supervision of a person who is incompetent, and:
a. The force is used for the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the person who is incompetent, including the prevention of misconduct, or, when such person who is incompetent is in a hospital or other institution for care and custody, for the maintenance of reasonable discipline in such institution; and
b. The force used is reasonable and moderate; the size, age, condition of the person who is incompetent, location of the force and the strength and duration of the force shall be factors considered in determining whether the force used is reasonable and moderate; and
c. The force is not enumerated under paragraph (1)c. of this section; and
d. The force is not proscribed as abuse or mistreatment under Chapter 11 of Title 16; or
(4) The defendant is a doctor or other therapist or a person assisting at the doctor's or other therapist's direction, and:
a. The force is used for the purpose of administering a recognized form of treatment which the defendant believes to be adapted to promoting the physical or mental health of the patient; and
b. The treatment is administered with the consent of the patient or, if the patient is a minor or a person who is incompetent, with the consent of a parent, guardian or other person legally competent to consent in the patient's behalf, or the treatment is administered in an emergency when the defendant believes that no one competent to consent can be consulted and that a reasonable person, wishing to safeguard the welfare of the patient, would consent; or
(5) The defendant is a warden or other authorized official of a correctional institution, or a superintendent, administrator or other authorized official of the Division of Youth Rehabilitative Service, and:
a. The defendant believes that the force used is necessary for the purpose of enforcing the lawful rules or procedures of the institution; and
b. The nature or degree of force used is not forbidden by any statute governing the administration of the institution; and
c. If deadly force is used, its use is otherwise justifiable under this Criminal Code; or
(6) The defendant is a person responsible for the safety of a vessel or an aircraft or a person acting at the responsible person's direction, and:
a. The defendant believes that the force used is necessary to prevent interference with the operation of the vessel or aircraft or obstruction of the execution of a lawful order; and
b. If deadly force is used, its use is otherwise justifiable under this Criminal Code; or
(7) The defendant is a person who is authorized or required by law to maintain order or decorum in a vehicle, train or other carrier or in a place where others are assembled, and:
a. The defendant believes that the force used is necessary for such purpose; and
b. The force used is not designed to cause or known to create a substantial risk of causing death, physical injury or extreme mental distress.
11 Del. C. 1953, § 468; 58 Del. Laws, c. 497, § 1; 68 Del. Laws, c. 442, §§ 1, 2, 4; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1; 78 Del. Laws, c. 224, §§ 12, 13.;
http://delcode.delaware.gov/title11/c004/index.shtml
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)think some forms of corporal punishment are acceptable as long as they're not the ones being hit.
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)And I do think schools should be allowed to do very mild corporal punishment, even in high school (actually esp. high school).
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)corporal punishment is usually OK with anyone who's not going to be on the receiving end of it.
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)the general reaction would be if someone said...
"I received spousal abuse and am for it"
Orrex
(67,111 posts)A parent/guardian has extensive legal authority over a minor child and is legally afforded considerable latitude in determining what physical disciplinary measures are acceptable.
A parent/guardian does not have legal authority over an independent adult, including a spouse or coworker, so the parent/guardian has minimal latitude in determining acceptable measures of physical discipline.
Again, I'm not advocating for corporal punishment. I'm pointing out that the analogy makes no sense.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)my intent.
My intent is to show how foolish the "it was done to me so therefore it's OK if it's done to others" justification is.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)It speaks of the "I've got mine, Jack" mindset that weakens a lot of reasoning on DU and elsewhere.
"I lived through X, so X is good enough for everyone." Baloney.
you understand the point I was trying to make...
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)and I never said you advocated for abuse.
I am merely saying that it's really kind of distasteful to advocate for something just because one has been through it.
OK, let's put aside the spanking bit for now. Let's imagine the topic is bullying between children...or teens.
I went through it. It sucked. It hurt. But I survived.
I would never suggest that just because I went through it and survived, that it's OK for other kids to go through it too.
That is the point I'm trying to make.
People think just because they (believe they) turned out "fine" after they survived whatever they survived advocating for whatever they survived to be inflicted on others...well, that's just pretty vulgar.
How about:
Hey, kids! I jumped off my garage roof and survived! You can do it too!
Hey kids! My mom used a wooden paddle on my ass and I turned out GREAT (aside from some really bad life choices and lots of dysfunction, but whatever...) so if your mom hits you with a wooden paddle, shut up and suck it up, you whining little snots!
Hey kids!! I was scared to death of my dad (even though he didn't hit as often as mom did, but he was bigger, and we knew that if he had wanted to, he could have killed us), so if your dad scares the snot out of you with slaps or threats of violence, too fucking bad! I survived...so can you!
And yes...spanking can be abuse. So is being threatened with spanking.
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)is abuse. Please be consistent with your responses.
If it's not abuse, I don't understand your contention here.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)AcertainLiz
(863 posts)pink-o
(4,056 posts)It didn't turn us into psychos...however, times have changed and hopefully humans have evolved. Personally, I don't see how sitting a toddler down and explaining the Jungian theory of "the act is not the actor, and mommy loves you" is helpful discipline, but hitting a child, instilling fear of the person who's supposed to be his protector? That can't be good. Kids already get so many mixed messages from the world. When they're little, they need to know that their parents will take care of them.
Time outs work, if you have a social child. I hated being sent to my room, I always wanted to be in the thick of it. Sis, OTOH, let everyone know how happy she was to be sent away and get some solitude. I'm not sure how you discipline a child like that.
My firiend actually had the best (if not somewhat manipulative) method: whenever she saw her son disobeying, she drew a deep sigh, shook her head and looked absolutely crestfallen. Silently telling him: I guess I expected too much from you. Within seconds, he was throwing himself at her feet, apologizing, promising never to do it again. He's 20 now, and tells me to this day that got through to him far better than any hitting would.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)or lazy to learn and practice love and discipline through proven behavioral science and positive reinforcement. They choose the ineffective approach of pain or humiliation because it makes them feel in control with very little effort.
They assure themselves that it worked because sometime they manage to create avoidance of the behavior through fear. They don't get that as soon as the child knows they won't be detected that they feel free to continue the bad behavior.
It's simple science. Negative reinforcement has to be constant and continuous. Positive reinforcement should be intermittent and not necessarily continuous.
That means if you want to permanently change a behavior by spanking you have to be there to punish every time the child acts badly, forever. If you want to take the time to reinforce positive behavior, you can do so every so often and achieve a permanent change without permanently damaging you future relationship.
Sadly, hitters will never know how much better their relationship with their family and pets might have been had they never raised their hand. And yes, "taps" count and negative reinforcement too. Wake up and take a college class in behavioral psychology or read a book on child raising by an accepted authority.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No matter how mild the "swat", it is still the use of violence to coerce an otherwise helpless human into doing what we want. And its wrong.
It's also the admission that we, as parents, have failed terribly in communicating just what is is we expect from our children.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)absolutely acceptable IMO if a person's kid misbehaves.
My mom used to spank my older siblings and me with belts and extension cords whenever we got out of line, and it worked. After a few times, she had each of us embarrassed and aware of what not to do in the future. She has even spanked my niece, and now she is not as rowdy around the house anymore. From experience, I have seen that spanking is more effective than say time outs or taking a toy away for a while. Whenever I got caught doing something, I actually hoped that I wouldn't get spanked, and instead endure one of those other two punishments. Plus, even if there is swelling afterwards from a spanking, it goes down. It's not like getting punched or stabbed.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)SevenSixtyTwo
(255 posts)got spankings when we were kids when we behaved badly. I loved my dad dearly and I wouldn't change a thing about him. He taught us that there are consequences for bad behavior before turning us loose in the world. He also rewarded us with a lot of love for good behavior. I still have the belt he used. I still play the guitar he bought me as well. I miss everything about him. The love, the laughter, the support, the discipline because he cared, everything.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)They fucking HATE prog rock.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)One: never hit anyone smaller than yourself.
Two: kids get unconditional love. Grown ups have to earn it.
Three: a kid's actions can be wrong but his or her emotions are never wrong.
If you follow these three rules, your kids will probably grow up sane and happy. Breaking any combination of these rules will lead to "issues".
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Easy to follow if one cares more about the end product than about releasing momentary frustration on a kid's ass (or hand or other body part)
Especially rule #1, which says it ALL
Never hit anyone smaller than yourself.
Of course, we shouldn't hit anyone, but especially someone smaller than ourselves.
Even if they're our kids and we think we OWN them...
Property.
MY car. MY suitcase. MY kitchen sink. My iPhone. MY kids.
bobGandolf
(871 posts)yuiyoshida
(45,415 posts)The comments on this is disturbing.