General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTop cancer hospitals across the country treat their patients' PAIN with "woo."
That is, if you consider acupuncture to be "woo." These hospitals don't -- even if they don't think "chi" is the mechanism of action.They, of course, treat the cancer itself with standard cancer therapy, but treat many of the symptoms or side effects of treatment using an integrated model which can include acupuncture and other complementary forms of therapy.
Here are just a few examples.
MAYO CLINIC
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/care-at-mayo-clinic/why-choose-mayo-clinic/prc-20020778
Expertise. At Mayo Clinic, acupuncture is done only by doctors trained in acupuncture and by licensed acupuncturists trained in traditional Chinese medicine.
Experience. Mayo Clinic specialists in complementary and integrative medicine perform thousands of acupuncture treatments each year.
Integrated care. At Mayo Clinic, acupuncture specialists integrate their care with the care provided by your other doctors to blend the best of conventional and complementary treatments.
Research leader. Mayo Clinic researchers rigorously test complementary treatments such as acupuncture to determine their effectiveness.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/basics/definition/prc-20020778
Traditional Chinese medicine explains acupuncture as a technique for balancing the flow of energy or life force known as qi or chi (CHEE) believed to flow through pathways (meridians) in your body. By inserting needles into specific points along these meridians, acupuncture practitioners believe that your energy flow will re-balance.
In contrast, many Western practitioners view the acupuncture points as places to stimulate nerves, muscles and connective tissue. This stimulation appears to boost the activity of your body's natural painkillers and increase blood flow.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/basics/why-its-done/prc-20020778
You may try acupuncture for symptomatic relief of a variety of diseases and conditions, including:
Chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting
Fibromyalgia
Headaches
Labor pain
Low back pain
Menstrual cramps
Migraines
Osteoarthritis
Dental pain
Tennis elbow
FROM MEMORIAL SLOAN-KETTERING CANCER CENTER
http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/expertise
Acupuncture
To address chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting, nerve and joint pain, hot flashes, dry mouth, headache, fatigue, procedural anxiety, depression, insomnia, stress, appetite loss, diarrhea, constipation, weight gain and loss, and lifestyle changes such as smoking cessation. Recent research also shows that acupuncture may be effective in managing swallowing difficulties and swelling such as lymphedema.
http://www.mskcc.org/blog/study-shows-acupuncture-may-relieve-chronic-lymphedema-after-breast-treatment
A study from Memorial Sloan Kettering investigators has shown that acupuncture may help relieve lymphedema of the arm, a swelling that sometimes follows breast cancer treatment.
The research, led by Barrie R. Cassileth, Chief of Memorial Sloan Ketterings Integrative Medicine Service, and Clifford A. Hudis, Chief of the Breast Cancer Medicine Service, was published April 10 in the journal Cancer.
We have shown that acupuncture as a treatment for lymphedema is safe and well tolerated, says Dr. Cassileth. Furthermore, this study demonstrated reductions in lymphedema for the patients treated, providing strong impetus for the randomized controlled trial that is now under way to prove that the effect is real.
SNIP
Dr. Cassileth cautions patients who might seek acupuncture for lymphedema on their own. Because of the potential for complications, she concludes, its important that acupuncture treatment is received only from licensed practitioners who are also specifically trained to work with cancer patients.
FROM THE FRED HUTCHINSON CANCER RESEARCH CENTER:
http://www.fhcrc.org/content/dam/public/Treatment-Suport/survivorship/Healthy-Links/Aromatase%20Inhibitors.pdf
Acupuncture and Cancer
Acupuncture is not used on its own as a treatment for cancer. Instead, it is combined with traditional cancer treatments to decrease symptoms of cancer or the side effects related to the treatment of cancer such as nausea, vomiting and stress. Acupuncture has also been found to relieve fatigue, pain and neuropathy related to cancer and its treatment. In the United States and Europe, acupuncture is generally used to control pain and alleviate symptoms of disease, but not cure the disease.
There have been many proposed scientific reasons related to acupunctures effect on pain. Acupuncture points are thought to stimulate the central nervous system (the brain and spinal cord) to release chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord and brain. When these chemicals are released it is thought that they change the experience of pain or release hormones that control different functions in the body. These changes may affect blood pressure, body temperature, increase immune system activity and cause endorphins (natural painkillers) to be released.
Are There Side Effects From Acupuncture?
There have been few side effects reported. Problems have been associated with using needles that were not sterile, placing a needle in the wrong place or movement of the patient. Other possible side effects may include soreness or pain during treatment, fatigue or lightheadedness and sleepiness. Chemotherapy and radiation weaken the immune system so it is very important to seek treatment from a qualified acupuncture practioner who only uses disposable needles for each patient. Before beginning any type of therapy individuals should talk to their doctor first.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)I think acupuncture has more basis in reality, fwiw.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)Have you?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Personally, I credit the surgery, radiation therapy, and chemo rather than the prayers for her still being alive today, 10 years later.
otherone
(973 posts)I got the idea that it does help from http://usa.rigpa.org/
RandoLoodie
(133 posts)grown ups begging daddy jeebus for stuff. waste o' time.
otherone
(973 posts)I am under the impression that prayer has worked in blind trials for recovering from illness..
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Prayer is somewhere between useless and harmful. You're welcome.
otherone
(973 posts)but I could be wrong..
Thanks for the link..
TBF
(32,114 posts)does not add to the conversation. Especially when you've been rebuffed by actual data ...
otherone
(973 posts)I read The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying and thought that the info came from the book.
I have a link to
www.usa.rigpa.org
perhaps some digging there will turn up what I am looking for.
TBF
(32,114 posts)The info. I'm not doing your research for you. But I will say that I usually have the opinion that prayer can't hurt - unless it's keeping folks from seeking actual treatment.
otherone
(973 posts)peace and low stress..
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Ever.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Sadly for them nothing fails like prayer.
840high
(17,196 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
METHODS:
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
RESULTS:
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
otherone
(973 posts)peace and low stress..
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)seriously.
Pathwalker
(6,600 posts)n/t
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)the place has started sounding like a confederation of third graders. There is indeed bad science in the world but why must they try so hard to sound like idiots describing what they feel is the bad science?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)arikara
(5,562 posts)That's the first thing I thought when I saw the title. I frickin' despise the word and the sentiment around it.
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)That explains a lot, actually.
MattBaggins
(7,905 posts)Scout
(8,624 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)I don't think it helped her but it gave us lots of jokes.
"fill it to the rim with brim..."
OK, one joke...but we laughed a lot.
In my defense I used to be kind of an asshole.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Good grief....some folks never give up!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Medicinal leeches are any of several species of leeches, but most commonly Hirudo medicinalis, the European medicinal leech.
The use of leeches in modern medicine made a small-scale comeback in the 1980s after years of decline, with the advent of microsurgeries, such as plastic and reconstructive surgeries. In operations such as these, problematic venous congestion can arise due to inefficient venous drainage. Sometimes, because of the technical difficulties in forming an anastomosis of a vein, no attempt is made to reattach a venous supply to a flap at all. This condition is known as venous insufficiency. If this congestion is not cleared up quickly, the blood will clot, arteries that bring the tissues their necessary nourishment will become plugged, and the tissues will die. To prevent this, leeches are applied to a congested flap, and a certain amount of excess blood is consumed before the leech falls away. The wound will also continue to bleed for a while due to the anticoagulant hirudin in the leeches' saliva. The combined effect is to reduce the swelling in the tissues and to promote healing by allowing fresh, oxygenated blood to reach the area.[36]
The active anticoagulant component of leech saliva is a small protein, hirudin. Discovery and isolation of this protein led to a method of producing it by recombinant technology. Recombinant hirudin is available to physicians as an intravenous anticoagulant preparation for injection, particularly useful for patients who are allergic to or cannot tolerate heparin.
Medicinal leech therapy made an international comeback in the 1970s in microsurgery,[6][7] used to stimulate circulation to salvage skin grafts and other tissue threatened by postoperative venous congestion,[6][8] particularly in finger reattachment and reconstructive surgery of the ear, nose, lip, and eyelid.[7][9] Other clinical applications of medicinal leech therapy include varicose veins, muscle cramps, thrombophlebitis, and osteoarthritis, among many varied conditions.[10] The therapeutic effect is not from the blood taken in the meal, but from the continued and steady bleeding from the wound left after the leech has detached, as well as the anesthetizing, anti-inflammatory, and vasodilating properties of the secreted leech saliva.[2] The most common complication from leech treatment is prolonged bleeding, which can easily be treated, although allergic reactions and bacterial infections may also occur.[2]
Because of the minuscule amounts of hirudin present in leeches, it is impractical to harvest the substance for widespread medical use. Hirudin (and related substances) are synthesised using recombinant techniques. Devices called "mechanical leeches" that dispense heparin and perform the same function as medicinal leeches have been developed, but they are not yet commercially available.
more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirudotherapy#Medicinal_use
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)a photo of my brother-in-law!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)They are a miracle to guard for infections and help with amputations.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)don't go to a doctor.....just go to an acupuncturist!
Crunchy Frog
(26,694 posts)She wasn't talking about it as a primary cancer treatment, but as an adjunct treatment, mostly for the side effects of conventional treatments.
Did you actually read the post?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)thus woo...
As stated above....some people believe in the power of prayer....and sometimes that even "works"....I have a cousin who believes that....got the "hands laid on him" and SHAZAAM he was cured of severe Asthma....or so he says.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You'd best write the President at once and advice him of your wisdoms. Of course, he also hears from the actual Medical Doctors that employ acupuncture as part of their practices, so you better use lots of CAPS and emoticons when you write to him so he'll know you are righteous!!!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)it is still no more effective than "sham accupuncture"....where the researchers used faked acupuncture....facts are still facts.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)have you tried it?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
This study sought to determine whether sham acupuncture is as efficacious as true acupuncture, as defined by traditional acupuncture theories.
METHODS:
A systematic review was conducted of clinical trials that used sham acupuncture controls with needle insertion at wrong points (points not indicated for the condition) or non-points (locations that are not known acupuncture points). This study used a convenience sample of 229 articles resulting from a PubMed search using the keyword "acupuncture" and limited to "clinical trials" published in English in 2005 or 2006. Studies were categorized by use of wrong points versus non-points and the use of normal insertion and stimulation versus superficial insertion or minimal stimulation.
RESULTS:
Thirty-eight acupuncture trials were identified. Most studies (22/38 = 58%) found no statistically significant difference in outcomes, and most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points.
CONCLUSIONS:
The findings cast doubt on the validity of traditional acupuncture theories about point locations and indications. Scientific rationales for acupuncture trials are needed to define valid controls, and the theoretical basis for traditional acupuncture practice needs to be re-evaluated.
because.......
SCIENCE!
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)it is evolving rapidly, and much of it indicates that chemo is not as effective in treating certain cancers as the SCIENCE concluded earlier. SCIENCE is not static. as cancer survivor, i am very grateful for the NEW research that saved me from chemo...which not certainly would have been standard treatment 10 years ago. also, scientifically-sanctioned or not, a cancer diagnosis is not just physically challenging, it is also mentally and emotionally challenging, and SCIENCE doesn't offer much help for those challenges. i am certain surgery, radiation and hormone therapy helped me survive, and just as certain that acupuncture, reiki helped me cope with the stress and fear. i'd encourage anyone dealing with the big C to take advantage of any treatment that helps, even if it just to manage stress. that's a part of the reason why hospitals offer these adjunctive treatments. unless of course they've just succumbed to woo.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Many people ARE cured with chemo....chemo is not woo...chemo is science.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)and causes a host of problems. there is no CURE for cancer, which tells me you really don't know you are talking about,
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)No there is no cure for Cancer....but some people ARE cured of thiers....
Chemo saves lives.....its not woo.
Yes I do know what I am talking about....
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)why, yes you YOU did, so I have to infer from that: you don't know you are talking about. nice try at revisionism though. woo...does that include the belief that chemo "cures" cancer? perhaps you just miswrote
\
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)you have a problem with that statement? Surgery to remove a tumor also cures a case of Cancer....sometimes it doesn't....still not woo.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)God I hate that word! Made me sound like a third grader just responding to you using your chosen nomenclature.
I believe having less or worse of an effect than placebo is your standard is it not?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I said my cousin BELIEVES he was cured...
and yes...to your second point...and its pseudo-scientific
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)sorry if I didn't express myself well enough the first time though...
mucifer
(23,581 posts)It's my observation as a hospice nurse with a few of my patients who have acupuncture. I know that's not scientific proof. But, it does help some people feel better.
With some of my patients or their families I do relaxation exercises with tuning forks. It's part of my nursing visit so no one pays extra for it. Some people love it and I keep doing it with them. Others try it once and don't like it or feel that it's silly so we don't continue doing it. Also, remember that these alternative therapies are in conjunction with medications. Often times when people relax the meds work better.
MattBaggins
(7,905 posts)Relaxation and anxiety.
Anxiety is the bride of Pain They go everywhere hand in hand. That is not woo or pseudoscience that is good basic medical psychology.
You tell a patient "I will give you your pain med at 1:30", and as that target time approaches many people will start to feel pain relief. Just giving a person a goal line relieves anxiety which helps to promote relaxation. That is damn good medicine and good nursing. I don't care for the CAM artists because they try to promote it has something beyond that and enter the realm of fraud.
I myself have no use for touch therapy, prayer, meditation, guided imagery, massage but will use them on patients when asked since I realize how important they are. they are a part of good nursing. I refuse however, to randomly stick needles in people since this a an incredibly stupid INVASIVE procedure that has no effect other than to relive anxiety and help with relaxation. There are dozens of other techniques that will do this with out the need to break the skin barrier. Acupuncturists must engage in hocus pocus to try and hoodwink people into believing that they are practicing a magic that no one else understands in order to line their pockets with money.
Acupuncturists and Homeopaths are the worst of the charlatans fleecing people in pain and despair.
Democracyinkind
(4,015 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,694 posts)uses woo too. Offered me acupuncture right on the premises, and they're one of the top clinics in the world.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)My twins are seven now.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--yes acupuncture is being used at major hospitals in America routinely.
LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)in some patients, though the mechanism is not clear.
Treating acupuncture, or indeed any single procedure, as a cure-all is quackery however.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)the mechanism is likely the same as 'TENS' pain relief (does anyone remember hearing about that? I learned it when studying about birth...) where you put electrodes on your back (for back labor) and turn it up...it creates a buzzing feeling in your back and is supposed to relieve pain in labor. There were studies about its effectiveness.
My doctor used electricity through the acupuncture needles and you would feel a light, regular, "zap, zap, zap" it was seriously a distracting sensation. That's probably how it works - it distracts you and stimulates other nerves in the area taking away the pain sensation. Like adding 'noise' to the nerves so the brain can't 'hear' the pain.
I have this peppermint oil migraine roll on that works like that - when I get a migraine, I rub the stuff on my forehead and temples and neck, and the top of my head. Before too long, the intense cooling sensation blocks out the pain of the migraine. All it is, is adding 'noise' to the area to drown out the pain signals to the brain, IMO.
That said, my doctor tried to induce my labor with acupuncture - didn't work. Tried to help treat my messed up back and hip with acupuncture - didn't work. Total waste of time. Chiropractic, however, worked wonders on my hip (not so much on my upper back). So some things work for some things, and not for others. Just like all chemo doesn't work for all cancers. Just like I can take tylenol and it helps my headache, but my mom doesn't get any relief from tylenol and takes advil. Some treatments are highly individual. Nothing is a cure-all.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)One of the big cancer centers here has valet parking. I'm pretty sure that's about as statistically useful as acupuncture (ie it's not,) but it's a cheap perk that keeps patients happy.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)Iggo
(47,579 posts)Grrrr.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Moffet HH.
Author information
Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente, Oakland, CA 94612, USA. Howard.H.Moffet@kp.org
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
This study sought to determine whether sham acupuncture is as efficacious as true acupuncture, as defined by traditional acupuncture theories.
METHODS:
A systematic review was conducted of clinical trials that used sham acupuncture controls with needle insertion at wrong points (points not indicated for the condition) or non-points (locations that are not known acupuncture points). This study used a convenience sample of 229 articles resulting from a PubMed search using the keyword "acupuncture" and limited to "clinical trials" published in English in 2005 or 2006. Studies were categorized by use of wrong points versus non-points and the use of normal insertion and stimulation versus superficial insertion or minimal stimulation.
RESULTS:
Thirty-eight acupuncture trials were identified. Most studies (22/38 = 58%) found no statistically significant difference in outcomes, and most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points.
CONCLUSIONS:
The findings cast doubt on the validity of traditional acupuncture theories about point locations and indications. Scientific rationales for acupuncture trials are needed to define valid controls, and the theoretical basis for traditional acupuncture practice needs to be re-evaluated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19250001
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,924 posts)for at least some conditions. It does not fall into the same "woo" category as, say, homeopathy, which involves the successive dilution of a substance that might be toxic with water until it supposedly is able to "cure" ailments - except that the process involves dilution to the point where there is nothing left but water. Some claim the water has "memory." But homeopathy has been repeatedly debunked. It's harmless as long as it doesn't take the place of some treatment that might actually work.
On the other hand, sometimes acupuncture does seem to work. I realize my own experience is only anecdotal and therefore completely unscientific and incapable of proving anything, but: a few years ago I had a sore knee - it had become very painful and I could barely go up and down stairs. I got cortisone shots a few times but they worked only temporarily. Somebody suggested acupuncture and I said, meh, that's not real medicine, it doesn't work, but they said go ahead and try it, it can't do you any harm. Since nothing else was working and my knee was really painful I decided to give it a try, but I was very skeptical. After the first treatment my knee felt better, and I thought, Ha, placebo effect. But I went back got some more treatments and the problem went away and never returned. Maybe it would have gone away on its own without any treatment. Maybe there was a placebo effect. I don't know. But I have at least retreated from my original opinion that acupuncture is pure woo.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)No. They're using it to release endorphins, something which does manage pain.
Acupuncture based on qi is woo.
KT2000
(20,597 posts)acupuncture was developed in China and it is part of traditional Chinese Medicine. An acupuncturist who is trained in Chinese Medicine (as this article states they are) has learned the elements of qi and their treatment would be based on that. Whatever happens as a result of that treatment is due to the placement of the needles. You do not place them in one place to release endorphins and somewhere else if treating qi.
What you are probably misunderstanding is the principle that the body always seeks to heal and protect itself. Much of our mainstream medicine is based on "silver bullets (pharmaceuticals)" and what are considered as alternatives seek to assist the body to find its balance again so our innate mechanisms can manage the illness, injury or trauma.
Alternative medicine is not for all health conditions but is more helpful than drugs for others. It is a choice.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)its the "belief" part that does the healing....
KT2000
(20,597 posts)Everything is not known at this point in time and there is no study that proves belief is what causes success with acupuncture. The human body has many systems - blood, lymph, fascia, immune response, etc. Exactly what acupuncture taps into is defined as the energy meridians, or as some have interpreted it - the electrical system. It may turn out to be something else entirely. But it works for some health needs.
At one time it was scientifically proven that most people had falling internal organs. When x-rays were taken of people's abdomens, their internal organs were lower than those in the horizontal cadavers used in schools and for autopsies. To correct this "problem," surgeries were done to sew the organs back into the higher positions. Science proved this was necessary and later proved it was unnecessary.
Also - At one time you could say that belief was the cause of multiple sclerosis because that is how it was diagnosed. It was said to affect artistic types and those of low moral character.
The research scientists I have met are not given to ridicule or garbage can explanations, but rather they are humble seekers. They do not use "science" as blinders and are open to clues from all sources in their search for answers.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture: a systematic review of clinical trials.
Moffet HH.
Author information
Division of Research, Kaiser Permanente, Oakland, CA 94612, USA. Howard.H.Moffet@kp.org
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
This study sought to determine whether sham acupuncture is as efficacious as true acupuncture, as defined by traditional acupuncture theories.
METHODS:
A systematic review was conducted of clinical trials that used sham acupuncture controls with needle insertion at wrong points (points not indicated for the condition) or non-points (locations that are not known acupuncture points). This study used a convenience sample of 229 articles resulting from a PubMed search using the keyword "acupuncture" and limited to "clinical trials" published in English in 2005 or 2006. Studies were categorized by use of wrong points versus non-points and the use of normal insertion and stimulation versus superficial insertion or minimal stimulation.
RESULTS:
Thirty-eight acupuncture trials were identified. Most studies (22/38 = 58%) found no statistically significant difference in outcomes, and most of these (13/22 = 59%) found that sham acupuncture may be as efficacious as true acupuncture, especially when superficial needling was applied to non-points.
CONCLUSIONS:
The findings cast doubt on the validity of traditional acupuncture theories about point locations and indications. Scientific rationales for acupuncture trials are needed to define valid controls, and the theoretical basis for traditional acupuncture practice needs to be re-evaluated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19250001
That's HOW!
KT2000
(20,597 posts)may demonstrate that the placement of needles as described by the teachings of traditional acupuncture is not accurate. It does not prove that the outcomes of acupuncture are based on belief. That is a supposition, not a proven fact.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Results show that "real" acupuncture is no more effective than sham acupuncture....that is called science
KT2000
(20,597 posts)borne out by this article. You asserted that belief drove the results and that was the proof I was requesting. These are not studies to determine if belief is what is driving the results. One would have to design a study that looks at that question. You suppose it is belief.
I am not going to argue the efficacy of acupuncture as stated in this article as I don't have the money to access it or the studies it was based upon. It would be interesting to see how the studies were conducted as acupuncture as well as many other therapies involve many aspects that would need to be controlled for. For example, talking with the patient, touching the patient, background music, relaxation techniques, incense etc. Whether these alone or used synergistically could affect results should be studied as well as characteristics of the individuals involved.
Your conclusion of belief is not yet support by science.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--acupuncture is an empirical practice, probably derived from battlefield medicine where soldiers punctured with arrows at various sites noticed pain relief. It is normal for humans to make up stories about why empirical treatments work, and probably even functional as a memory aid. It is no longer necessary to bother with explanations like meridians, any more than we believe a hedge witch who says that willow bark tea relieves headaches because the willow is sacred to St. Sebastian, the patron saint of headaches.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Saying that acupuncture treats headaches because of qi is pseudoscience. Saying that it treats headaches because of the release of endorphins isn't.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Massage for chronic pain cures nothing, vut it really feels good. A few hours off narcotics can't be so bad.
Nothing feels better for longer than a real, therupratic, deep tissue massage. Preferably by a middle aged european woman with a lot of issues. Felt better than paying off the mortgage 18 years early.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)What's your point?
Sid
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)acute pain physicians, head of a department and all that. Works very well when nothing else did. A very useful system of treatment for many things. The Knights Who Say Woo are of limited experience and certainly none of them hold an MD. I'll take my physician's advice over some ranting DU nutter any day of the week.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)I don't know if that is old or you just came up with it on the fly but I actually physically laughed my ass of when I read that!!
Thanks for the giggle! (I just hate that word as it sounds so childish)
rocktivity
(44,581 posts)Though it's not covered by the military's Tricare health insurance:
http://acupuncture-austin.com/military-using-acupuncture-for-pain/
rocktivity
Progressive dog
(6,922 posts)pay for this. Acupuncture is just a placebo, sugar pills are cheaper and don't require sticking needles into patients.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and yes indeed acupuncture is covered by much insurance, including the expanded Medicaid provision of the ACA as implemented in my State. You'd better write to the President and set him right. 'Dear Mr President, I am not a physician nor a doctor of any kind but you must listen to me because I am just smarter than the folks at the Mayo clinic.' I'm sure he will put your advice directly where it belongs.
Progressive dog
(6,922 posts)is about as effective as placebo or faith healing. It should not be paid for by monies better spent on real medicine. I'll bet some real physicians believe in faith healing too. I just hope no one who actually could be helped by medicine is suckered in by this woo.
Progressive dog
(6,922 posts)from children. They also used X-rays to treat swollen tonsils and adenoids. Farther back they bled patients. The acupuncture lobbies did get acupuncture (but only for anesthetic and pain-not where it is an actual treatment for disease) into the bill. This probably got the bill support from the acupuncture (woo) lobby.
BTW Physicians used to be used to advertise the health benefits of cigarettes and Rand Paul is a physician.
KT2000
(20,597 posts)that proves what you said. Thank you.
Progressive dog
(6,922 posts)Outrageous claims need to be proven. Purveyors of woo (quacks in this case) should have to show that it works, and since they never can, it should be banned.
The FDA does this for drugs.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)I'm sure some children's cancer ward uses clowns to make the patients "feel better."
That doesn't mean acupuncture "works" in the sense of "working."
It does "work"... as do clowns.
It does not, however, work in the sense of "putting needle at point X has effect Y."
In terms of higher self-reported pain reduction or sense of well being all sorts of things "work."
An interesting TV shows probably "works." It probably distracts from pain.
It seems likely to me that people request fewer pain meds during a show they're really interested in.
But if one is making a scientific claim like claiming "putting needle at point X has effect Y"... it doesn't.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)April 15, 2014
When people feel helpless, they want to believe that their own actions can somehow counteract their current state: offering whimsy-based substitutes for SBM seems to take advantage of them. Shouldnt psycho-social intervention address that issue?
I wonders and I wonders .
if there are data which indicate how much
- the addition of woo-ful specialities contributes to patients choice of using a particular facility
- which woo is most lucrative
- how much woo contributes to the bottom line: i.e. profit
Wouldnt that be ironic?
If SB facilities added altie nonsense in order to make money.
I thought that they were already rolling in it.
Denice Walter nailed it.
Sid
TNNurse
(6,931 posts)The side effects of chemo and radiation can be brutal. I took pain meds mostly so I could just sleep and get through it. If I had the opportunity to try acupuncture (from someone trusted to be sterile) I would have. I was already having a lot of chemicals put in my body and you have to wonder about the combination of things you are putting in your body after awhile.
The placebo effect is just that an effect, if it brings relief from symptoms without harm. Does it really matter if it helps suffering?
A lot of people prayed for me. I have no idea if that helped or not, but there was comfort in knowing that so many people cared.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)and it lasted longer.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)OF A COMPREHENSIVE treatment plan...I AM STILL HERE DESPITE THE INITIAL PROGNOSIS AT MY DIAGNOSIS. I was Dx with stage 4 SQUAMOUS CELL CERVICAL CANCER and I KNOW personally that this works. IT IS NOT WOO and although, the way it works isn't totally understood, IT IS NOT WOO!!! I was treated at a renowned CANCER treatment center and when I came back into California, I found that nearly ALL the specialty Cancer treatment centers UTILISE ACUPUNCTURE as part of a comprehensive treatment program..
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)I said that cancer hospitals treat pain with woo only IF you consider acupuncture to be woo -- which I don't.
The hospitals don't consider acupuncture to be woo, the NIH doesn't consider it to be woo, and neither do I. It's true that the precise mechanism of action is unknown, but that's the case for some standard drug treatments, too.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)you were against it. So many, who think they know everything DO laugh at it and it WORKS, when in the hands of people who are THOROUGHLY trained.
Sorry.
naturallyselected
(84 posts)While it's possible the acupuncture works for pain, due to some unknown effect, or a placebo effect, I doubt that even those who put together your comprehensive treatment plan would claim it helped to put your cancer into remission.
If it worked for your pain, that's great, and I am not being dismissive in any way or trying to diminish your personal experience. But someone saying it worked for them is not in any way evidence that it is a more effective pain treatment than placebo. I could easily counter your story with one of my own. My wife, who went for acupuncture for severe back pain in her third pregnancy, got no relief from the pain at all. It's just one anecdote vs another. I can't draw general conclusions from my wife's experience any more than I can from yours. It is only through large comparative studies that any claim for general effectiveness can be made.
Insurance covers many things that are known to be ineffective. Some health insurance plans still cover Christian Science practitioners (thankfully far fewer than in the past), otherwise known as faith healing. I can find people who claim that this religious treatment was effective too - but while I keep an open mind about acupuncture, faith healing is nonsense, despite the individual anecdotes.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)claimed to be an acupuncturist DOES NOT MEANT THAT THEY KNEW WHAT THE FUCK they were doing. I trust very few acupuncturists and ONLY the ones who have EXTENSIVE training in ASIA, NOT the US....
naturallyselected
(84 posts)There are countless individuals who claim to have gotten no relief through acupuncture, and countless individuals who claim they have gotten help. But they are all just individual anecdotes and there is no way to use any of them as generalized evidence one way or the other. Only well-controlled acupuncture/sham comparative studies can do that. And, for me, the jury is still out on whether acupuncture offers anything but a placebo effect. I wish that more good studies could be funded, as there is enough intriguing data to warrant them.
Why should you just assume we didn't fully research the practitioner we found? She was in fact trained in Asia, and had been practicing for decades. The conventional, Western, OB/GYN practice my wife went to recommended her, as they had success stories from their patients, and we went into the experience with great optimism and hope (although if it is really effective, the patient's mindset shouldn't make a difference), as my wife was really suffering and didn't want to use heavy-duty painkillers while pregnant.
Why should you take offense if someone doesn't take your single positive experience as proof of the efficacy of acupuncture? No offense was intended. I made it very clear that I keep an open mind about acupuncture, despite our experience, because any one experience, positive or negative, doesn't prove much of anything.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)and "OF COURSE, I BELIEVE THAT YOU RESEARCHED"the "Acupuncturist"you took your wife to to make sure they had the appropriate training, experience & ...MAKES PERFECT SENSE. Considering that I didn't ask you for your input, I take REAL offence on your psuedo-scientific and 'REASONED" response. I KNOW what I went through and considering that I was UNCONSCIOUS during the first part of my Acupuncture treatment during my chemotherapy due to a unforeseen complication and it WORKED, it's INSULTING that you put your 2cents into a fight you had no dog in but of course, you know EVERYTHING there is to know the applications of Acupuncture... TRUST ME,I am NOT the one you want to get into a "discussion" about what alternative treatments are effective and which aren't.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/expertise
Acupuncture
To address chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting, nerve and joint pain, hot flashes, dry mouth, headache, fatigue, procedural anxiety, depression, insomnia, stress, appetite loss, diarrhea, constipation, weight gain and loss, and lifestyle changes such as smoking cessation. Recent research also shows that acupuncture may be effective in managing swallowing difficulties and swelling such as lymphedema.
I run so fast the other direction. I see these kind of claims on all those internet scams, and we all know that the more incredible the claims, the least likely it is that it works on any of it.
I suppose if all else failed, I would try it.....but that is only if all else failed.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)They must be crazy there.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)at all. I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE and KNOW AT LEAST 20 others who underwent this and IT WORKS....
intaglio
(8,170 posts)The simple truth is that in the majority of studies acupuncture is no more effective than placebo medication at pain control.
Some studies seem to indicate that acupuncture might stimulate the nerves to block signaling but others seem to show that such effects are caused by a hypnotic response. In any event if the hospital is reduced to using acupuncture to control pain - you are in the same position as Kate Middleton - royally f***ked
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Doesn't mean it works.
Pathwalker
(6,600 posts)PDJane
(10,103 posts)However, guided meditation did and does. Mind you, I have neurological pain and that may make a difference.
And yes, the guided meditation was a program through the local hospital, under the auspices of a woman named Jackie Gardiner-Nix.
Archae
(46,362 posts)Obvious reason: Woo.
Just because a respected institution offers some treatment, doesn't mean it's valid.
Andrew Wakefield used to be a respected British doctor.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Andrew J. Vickers, DPhil; Angel M. Cronin, MS; Alexandra C. Maschino, BS; George Lewith, MD; Hugh MacPherson, PhD; Nadine E. Foster, DPhil; Karen J. Sherman, PhD; Claudia M. Witt, MD; Klaus Linde, MD; for the Acupuncture Trialists' Collaboration
Background Although acupuncture is widely used for chronic pain, there remains considerable controversy as to its value. We aimed to determine the effect size of acupuncture for 4 chronic pain conditions: back and neck pain, osteoarthritis, chronic headache, and shoulder pain.
Methods We conducted a systematic review to identify randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of acupuncture for chronic pain in which allocation concealment was determined unambiguously to be adequate. Individual patient data meta-analyses were conducted using data from 29 of 31 eligible RCTs, with a total of 17 922 patients analyzed.
Results In the primary analysis, including all eligible RCTs, acupuncture was superior to both sham and no-acupuncture control for each pain condition (P < .001 for all comparisons). After exclusion of an outlying set of RCTs that strongly favored acupuncture, the effect sizes were similar across pain conditions. Patients receiving acupuncture had less pain, with scores that were 0.23 (95% CI, 0.13-0.33), 0.16 (95% CI, 0.07-0.25), and 0.15 (95% CI, 0.07-0.24) SDs lower than sham controls for back and neck pain, osteoarthritis, and chronic headache, respectively; the effect sizes in comparison to no-acupuncture controls were 0.55 (95% CI, 0.51-0.58), 0.57 (95% CI, 0.50-0.64), and 0.42 (95% CI, 0.37-0.46) SDs. These results were robust to a variety of sensitivity analyses, including those related to publication bias.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Date: March 14, 2013
Source: Georgetown University Medical Center
Eshkevari used rats because these animals are often used to research the biological determinants of stress. They mount a stress response when exposed to winter-like temperatures for an hour a day.
"I used electroacupuncture because I could make sure that each animal was getting the same treatment dose," she explains.
The study utilized four groups of rats for a 10-day experiment: a control group that was not stressed and received no acupuncture; a group that was stressed for an hour a day and did not receive acupuncture; a group that was stressed and received "sham" acupuncture near the tail; and the experimental group that were stressed and received acupuncture to the Zusanli spot on the leg.
The researchers then measured blood hormone levels secreted by the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal (HPA) axis, which includes the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland and the adrenal gland. The interactions among these organs control reactions to stress and regulate digestion, the immune system, mood and emotions, sexuality and energy storage and expenditure.
"We found that electronic acupuncture blocks the chronic, stress-induced elevations of the HPA axis hormones and the sympathetic NPY pathway," Eshkevari says. She adds that the rats receiving the sham electronic acupuncture had elevation of the hormones similar to that of the stress-only animals.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)They either get relief or they don't.
I keep an open mind about any treatment that gives my animals relief, just like my veterinarians who prescribe treatments including acupuncture.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)By Gary Stix | March 3, 2014
The ST36 Zusanli (足三里 acupuncture point is located just below the knee joint. This spot in miceand it is hoped perhaps in humansmay be a critical entryway to gaining control over the often fatal inflammatory reactions that accompany systemic infections. Sepsis kills over 250,000 patients in the U.S. each year, more than 9 percent of overall deaths. Antibiotics can control sepsis-related infection, but no current drugs have FDA approval for counteracting the runaway immune response.
A research group at Rutgers University New Jersey Medical School, Newark, reported online in Nature Medicine on Feb. 23 that stimulating ST36 Zusanli with an electrical current passed through an acupuncture needle activated two nerve tracts in mice that led to the production of a biochemical that quieted a sepsis-like inflammatory reaction that had been induced in mice. (Scientific American is part of the Nature Publishing Group.)
The finding, which also involved the collaboration of the National Medical Center Siglo XXI, Mexico City and other institutions, raises the possibility that knowledge derived from alternative medicine may provide a means of discovering new nerve pathways that can regulate a variety of immune disorders from rheumatoid arthritis to Crohns disease. If future studies achieve similar results, acupuncture might be integrated into the nascent field of bioelectronics medicinealso called electroceuticalsthat is generating intense interest among both academics and drug companies.
Pathwalker
(6,600 posts)talking about, or.... figured as much. When all they've got is -no - the doctors are wrong. no, the hospitals are wrong, no the studies are wrong - WE are the only ones you can trust -anonymous posters on the internet with an agenda. uh-huh. I wonder who they think they're fooling. Not me, or you.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)confirmed that it's effective in pain relief.
Your opinion doesn't mean it's not.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)As in, the patients will always know whether they got stuck or not.
The placebo response is poorly understood in general, but taking advantage of its observable benefits to patients (if that's what it is) is hardly woo.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)if you designed the study so that everyone in the study 'got stuck' but some got stuck in the 'right' places, and some got stuck in random non-acupuncture medicine spots. Of course, that would make it difficult to discern if the benefits were from acupuncture medicine or from the sensation of being stuck with needles. It would be interesting to see if just being stuck with needles is all people need.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)that it helped to relieve pain.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)To use to feel their superiority compmex and bash those who they think are lesser than them...
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i used acupuncture, reiki in addition to surgery and radiation. i could give two fucks about the science. anything that helped me deal with the STRESS or the diagnosis, and the side effects of the treatments...i tried it. and those treatements helped me. help is help...whether it is a placebo effect or something else.
a2liberal
(1,524 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... and the actual research. Since I believe in caring for the "entire" person, I do not object to meeting the spiritual needs of patients while providing optimal science based medical care.
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/PIIS0025619613005132/related?article_id=S0025-6196%2813%2900513-2
It is well known that acupuncture has pain-relieving effects, but the contribution of specific and especially nonspecific factors to acupuncture analgesia is less clear. One hundred one patients who developed pain of 3 on a visual analog scale (VAS, 0 to 10) after third molar surgery were randomized to receive active acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, or no treatment for 30min with acupuncture needles with potential for double-blinding. Patients perception of the treatment (active or placebo) and expected pain levels (VAS) were assessed before and halfway through the treatment. Looking at actual treatment allocation, there was no specific effect of active acupuncture (P=.240), but there was a large and significant nonspecific effect of placebo acupuncture (P<.001), which increased over time. Interestingly, however, looking at perceived treatment allocation, there was a significant effect of acupuncture (P<.001), indicating that patients who believed they received active acupuncture had significantly lower pain levels than those who believed they received placebo acupuncture. Expected pain levels accounted for significant and progressively larger amounts of the variance in pain ratings after both active and placebo acupuncture (up to 69.8%). This is the first study to show that under optimized blinding conditions, nonspecific factors such as patients perception of and expectations toward treatment are central to the efficacy of acupuncture analgesia and that these factors may contribute to self-reinforcing effects in acupuncture treatment. To obtain an effect of acupuncture in clinical practice, it may therefore be important to incorporate and optimize these factors.
http://www.painjournalonline.com/article/S0304-3959%2813%2900231-5/abstract
Marr
(20,317 posts)My parents believed in herbal remedies, and when I got an ear infection, they were determined to treat it with the herbs prescribed by their witch doctors. For almost a month I had increasing pain and pressure in my ear, with the final week being literally the worst pain I've ever experienced in my life. Every once in awhile I'd just be hit with this blinding pain that left me literally collapsed on the floor and gasping for air.
Anyway, my mom finally took me to see an actual doctor, who told her I was days, or minutes away from going deaf in that ear. He gave me antibiotics and kept me there until the swelling started going down (about two hours).
Since then I've been a huge fan of science and western medicine, and have no patience at all for woo and people who waste others' precious time with it. Sick people don't have time or resources to waste, and if you're not a doctor, you really should just stay out of the way.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)There is implied second part to the OP's argument that acupuncture is both 'woo' and sometimes effective. That is that woo has a place in medicine.
I'd say that acupuncture isn't really woo, since it appears to do *something*, even if we don't understand exactly why. And woo has no place in medicine.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)he can't know if you were days or minutes from going deaf from an ear infection - how ridiculous. I have had a ruptured ear drum and I have felt that pain except mine came on ridiculously suddenly, no time to go to the doctor until the next day when my ear drum had already ruptured. I'm not deaf, although it did feel like I was hearing underwater for a month or so. IS there a risk of deafness? There is a risk of hearing loss with repeated infections, or if the infection damages the auditory nerve, but a doctor can't know that until the infection is gone and some time has passed, because most regain their hearing.
Besides the swelling wouldn't go down from only 2 hours on antibiotics. He must've given you something else. Antibiotics take much longer than that to work. Unless it was iv antibiotics.
Anyway, it wasn't 'woo' that almost 'made you deaf', it was your parents who ignored your pain for a month, wtf? Even my friends who are VERY into 'natural medicine' would never wait that long to see a real doctor. Most people understand the limitations of alternative treatments.
Marr
(20,317 posts)I remember the pain and I remember the quick relief I got from a visit to an actual doctor. I could well be remembering some of the specifics inaccurately, but it doesn't change my point. The same little drama is played out with lots of other people, and result in things much worse than partial deafness. Death, for one.
Also, your claim that woo isn't to blame, but rather the parents who choose it, seems like a Christian insisting that the blame for an abortion clinic bombing be placed solely on the bomber, and not the movement. It's a little too convenient.
politicstahl
(3 posts)The Politics of History Writing, January 25, 2002
By Winfield J. Abbe, Ph. D., Physics
This review is from: Cancer Wars: How Politics Shapes What We Know And Don't Know About Cancer (Paperback)
Professor Proctor uses many words to talk about prevention, even mentions on page 145 quoting one Thomas Culliney of the USDA Forest Service, listing a number of fruits and vegetables "...are outstanding sources of vitamins A and C--both of which may play a role in reducing human cancers." Yet apparently no mention of Linus Pauling, Ph. D., or Max Gerson, M.D., the earlier researchers who vigorously stressed their importance in treatment and prevention of cancer. (1), (2). While "Genetic Hopes" (Chapter 10) are promoted, he omits any mention of the seminal discoveries of Otto Warburg, M.D., Ph.D., who has been described as "the greatest biochemist of the twentieth century", of cancer cell metabolism, as early as 1923. These discoveries have been discussed in articles in the journal "Science" about 1956 (which was a translated speech Dr. Warburg gave before the German Cancer Control Commission in 1955) and later articles by Dr. Warburg (3). He and his pupil Dean Burk stated "1000 papers" supported their conclusions, yet Proctor makes no reference to him in about 360 references. Max Gerson, M.D., referenced Otto Warburg as authoriity for his treatment (1). In a 1967 statement on "the prime cause of cancer", Dr. Warburg wrote regarding cancer prevention (3):
"To prevent cancer it is therefore proposed first to keep the speed of the bloodstream so high that the venous blood still contains sufficient oxygen; second, to keep high the concentration of haemoglobin in the blood; third, to add always to the food, even of healthy people, the active groups of the respiratory enzymes: and to increase the dose of these groups, if a pre-cancerous state has already developed. If at the same time exogenous carcinogens are rigorously excluded, then much more endogenous cancer might be prevented today." However, there is no mention of Dr. Warburg or this statement by him in this book! Otto Warburg, M.D. won the 1931 Nobel Prize and was nominated for two others, 1926 and 1944. Linus Pauling won the 1954 Nobel Prize for Chemistry and the 1962 Nobel Prize for Peace. The omission of these two giants of science is very puzzling.
(1) "A Cancer Therapy Results of Fifty Cases" by Max Gerson, M.D., The Gerson Institute, 1958, 5th Edition.
(2) "Cancer and Vitamin C", by Ewan Cameron and Linus Pauling, Camino Books, Philadelphia, 1993.
(3) "Otto Warburg Cell Physiologist Biochemist and Eccentric" by Hans Krebs and Roswitha Schmid, Clarendon Press-Oxford (1981).
Iggo
(47,579 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Some of the studies have issues, sure, but that's true for anything. The placebo response is still poorly understood, but even if that's the basis of acupuncture's performance in studies, the relief actually happens. (Personally I find it difficult to imagine inserting conductors into an electrical system wouldn't have an effect.)
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)They also don't recognize that many drugs used in conventional medicine also have an unknown mechanism of effect.
*(Personally I find it difficult to imagine inserting conductors into an electrical system wouldn't have an effect.)*
Me, too. And that may be why sham acupuncture using needles in the "wrong" places turns out to help, also.
arikara
(5,562 posts)but I try not to insult the people who believe in it and find it beneficial.
I'd rather just see us lay off the woo flinging and all get along.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Happyhippychick
(8,379 posts)Silent3
(15,417 posts)...as supplementary treatment for the placebo effect.
So what?
That placebos, as a general idea, can be effective isn't "woo".
But when, for example, it turns out that sham acupuncture (done with no regard at all for particular placement of needles, and/or faking the insertion of needles) is just as effective as "real" acupuncture, that exposes acupuncture, as a system, to be pseudoscience, just one more in a long line of interchangeable mind games we can play with ourselves with sometimes positive results.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The customer is always right.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Basically, we have people in screaming agony who cant have their pain managed properly, medically and scientifically- due to the stupid fucking drug war.
MattBaggins
(7,905 posts)fixed that for ya.
yer welcome.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)don't have the patients' best interest in mind.
arikara
(5,562 posts)The number of acupuncturists, Traditional Chinese Medicinal (TCM) doctors, and complimentary alternative medicine (CAM) patients is growing in the United States, yet mainstream science, medicine and health insurance companies often disregard acupuncture as a legitimate medical treatment.
However, it appears that science may finally be able to visually verify the existence of acupuncture points, meridians (vessels within the body that conduct Chi, or life force energy, much like the wires in an electrical circuit), and Chi cavities within the human body.
Using a new combination of imaging techniques and CT scans (computerized tomography), researchers have observed concentrated points of microvascular structures that clearly correspond to the map of acupuncture points created by Chinese energy doctors nearly 2000 years ago.
http://themindunleashed.org/2014/03/science-finally-confirmed-existence-acupuncture-points-validating-chinese-medicine.html
That bears repeating... they have been practicing it for 2000 years. Here, not even 200 years ago, women died after childbirth because doctors refused to wash their frickin' hands. In comparison, our medicine is in its infancy.
G_j
(40,372 posts)thanks for posting!
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)- I am critical of a lot of woo health foody things and see them as marketing scams but accupunture has been beneficial for me.
Try it with a recommended practitioner, skills vary.