Fox News host: ‘Feminism is to blame’ when boys do poorly in school

[YoungDemCA]

Earlier this week, The New York Times reported that the Washington research group Third Way had found a growing gender gap between girls and boys in school. The report noted that only 31 percent of eighth grade boys received a mix of As and Bs, compared with 48 percent of girls.

Third Way linked boys’ poor performance to stagnation in wages for male workers, while median inflation-adjusted female earnings have increased by 35 percent in the last 25 years.

snip:

A lot of feminism is to blame for this,” Tantaros added. “Right? Because they are saying, ‘Listen, girls are falling behind, they’ve been overlooked.’ So, all the focus has been on girls.”

“We’ve overcorrected!” guest host Brian Kilmeade exclaimed.

“And so now, boys are being forgotten, there’s books about the war on boys,” Tantaros continued. “And this, I think actually is a problem.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/30/fox-news-host-feminism-is-to-blame-when-boys-do-poorly-in-school/

[Tikki]

1. My mother was fairly Liberal for her day, but I remember when she told me she wasn't

going to announce my IQ test result from 5th grade because it was higher than my brothers' numbers
and she didn't want to upset them.



Tikki

[No Vested Interest]

25. Her reasons may have been off, but it's better - far better-

not to compare children within a family.

I believe that, actually, the children is a family figure out their own status and differences on their own.

Best to not have Mom or Dad involved in that, except to love and nurture them all according to their needs.

[Tikki]

27. She had no problem announcing each of my brothers' IQ results. She truly didn't want to upset them.

Thing is in the long run things like IQ results don't matter that much. None of us were Mensa material
and we all went our different way and accomplished different things as we turned into adults.


Tikki

[No Vested Interest]

33. I realize those instances do sting for girls, as happened

between my own high IQ girl and boy.

I also had an average IQ girl and boy, and all four figured out their place and status in the pack, while spouse and I tried to further each one's talent and abilities.

It's not easy, I assure you, and even as they are now adults trying to deal with life, they observe and judge one another and themselves. It never really ends.

[groundloop]

2. That is such utter bullshit on so many levels - and sadly many people believe it

WTF does future earning potential have to do with eighth grader's academic achievement? Eighth graders don't think ahead past next weekend, how the hell do they care about earning potential years down the road?

And of course these morons fail to point out that women's earnings, while increasing in recent years, still are behind men.

[boston bean]

5. The very act of supporting women is discriminatory toward men.

That's what I've been told, anyhow. Do I believe that? HELL NO!

[Enthusiast]

77. +1

It's complete bullshit. This nation has become one big bullshit storm.

[seabeyond]

3. this feminist has never allowed my two boys to make excuses for them choosing not to work. put in

effort. when they choose to be lazy, not try or do not do cause they get bored.

maybe, the parents ought to step up.

i never allowed teachers to make excuses for boys either. i did not allow teachers to have low expectations either

every time i heard a teacher or another parent make excuses for my boys, with "boys will be boys" boys cant do this, boys cant do that. i called them on it.

each. and every. time.

and you know what?

my boys can do school just fine. even with learning challenges. we have spent the time, and focused on the issue and have come up with tools, to allow the boys to take into acct, their learning difficulty.

yes. blame the feminists.

as i did not allow my sons to be conditioned with their restricting gender role. creating an environment for my boys to fail. and with a societal provided excuse.

this feminist demands... that my boys can easily out perform any girl in verbal articulation.

not to mention excelling at reading comprehension. roles we give girls. that we INSIST that boys are failures at.

this feminist totally failed MY boys. of course. sarcasm. and snark. and a little disrespect. maybe boarding on uncivil. i am that disgusted. and offended.

[LeftyMom]

4. What's his DU name?

Seriously, lady-hating idiots have made that argument here.

[boston bean]

6. .

"lady hating idiots"

[seabeyond]

7. omg... just coming off my post, totally disgusted, .... as a mom of two boys.

still sittin in the snarled nose. read your post and busted up.

thanks. i have things to do. i can walk away with a smile

[Major Nikon]

26. So if it quacks like a duck....

What if it just pals around with the other duckies? Does that still make it a duck?

[seabeyond]

30. moooo. i am off to spend time with son. not gunna try to follow a duck

[alittlelark]

100. .....sigh.......

n/t

[Starry Messenger]

13. +++

[CreekDog]

24. DU *names*

[Squinch]

31. I think we all want to know if we can liberally steal the phrase "lady-hating idiots."

[seabeyond]

34. I would get a hide. You, too. Nt

[Squinch]

35. From a posse of lady hating idiots, no doubt!

[seabeyond]

37. Laughing my fuggin' ass off. Fuggin' is now a part of my autocorrect. Nt

[Major Nikon]

38. So pointing out that schools are failing boys makes one a "lady-hating idiot"?

Who knew?

[LeftyMom]

41. When it's an argument being used in bad faith by people who hate women?

See Fox News, Phyllis Schlaflay, MRAs, anybody who would blame women for everything from cloudy days to the heartbreak of psoriasis? Yes.

[Major Nikon]

51. So who is making that argument here?

[LeftyMom]

52. Are you trying to provoke me into a callout?

Oh come on, at least one of us is smarter than that (hint: it's me.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Passive-aggressive is a better adjective. n/t

[Major Nikon]

61. I'm pretty sure it was you calling other DUer's idiots unprovoked

So the Rubicon has already been crossed. I'm just asking for examples of your assertion:

LeftyMom (45,902 posts)
4. What's his DU name?

Seriously, lady-hating idiots have made that argument here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024908076#post4

So either you can support your assertion or you can't. I haven't seen it. Maybe you have.

[thucythucy]

72. Well, check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024828729

and the discussion that follows post 116.

The argument made there, by a DUer, and the argument made here by Fox News seem to me very similar indeed.

Since you asked.

BTW, I'm assuming by "here" the poster meant on DU in general, not this specific thread in particular.

[Major Nikon]

75. Actually the arguments are 180 out from each other

One argues FOR gender roles and the other argues AGAINST them. One argues AGAINST equal opportunity and the other argues FOR equal opportunity.

[thucythucy]

116. Not quite.

They are both arguing that there is some great crisis in the education of boys and men, and this crisis has somehow been caused by the advances made by girls and women.

[Major Nikon]

122. The first part is glaringly apparent

And where the crisis exists is largely in the black and Hispanic population. If you want to argue against this, be my guest but I'm not going there with you because the numbers speak for themselves. For every black male that graduates college, 2 black females graduate.

Nowhere does Jeff argue that the crisis "has somehow been caused by the advances made by girls and women". If that's what you got out of it, then you're simply reading into it what you want and misrepresenting his position. What he is arguing is that the crisis of the educational attainment of boys has been largely ignored and this too is glaringly apparent. Again, if you want to argue against that as well, be my guest.

[wickerwoman]

47. Blaming it on feminism does.

[Major Nikon]

50. Good point

So who is doing that here?

[wickerwoman]

57. See post 16.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. I didn't. Read better. n/t

[Major Nikon]

65. I've already seen and replied to it

It doesn't come within a cab ride of blaming all of feminism for the obvious problem. There ARE feminists who have been militantly opposed to any education initiatives that help boys. That's why there's a White House Council on Women and Girls, yet no reciprocal office for boys, even though boys have lower grades and graduate college in far fewer numbers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. excellent link.

The data show, for the first time, that gender disparities in teacher grades start early and uniformly favor girls. In every subject area, boys are represented in grade distributions below where their test scores would predict.

The authors attribute this misalignment to what they called non-cognitive skills, or "how well each child was engaged in the classroom, how often the child externalized or internalized problems, how often the child lost control and how well the child developed interpersonal skills." They even report evidence of a grade bonus for boys with test scores and behavior like their girl counterparts.

I think it's interesting how people tiptoe around the obvious. Primary school teachers are nearly 90% women and many regard this kind of favoritism a form of social justice.

[sufrommich]

62. " many regard this kind of favoritism a form of social justice"

Utter paranoid bullshit.Primary teachers have always been predominately female. There is literally no difference between what you just posited and what Limbaugh spouts about "feminazis" daily. There is no feminist cabal in the elementary schools plotting to keep boys down. Damn,you're transparent.

[Iris]

132. not to mention, many of them are quite conservative

It's a fairly conservative field. Not exactly a bastion of activists for social equality.

[knitter4democracy]

64. What about all the studies that show boys get more attention?

Boys get called on more frequently, are allowed to interrupt and talk over girls, and get more talk time in class. What about those studies?

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Of course they get more attention.

They're disciplined, suspended, expelled, diagnosed with learning disabilities and eventually drop out in far greater numbers than their female peers.

[knitter4democracy]

73. True, and that is something we have to work on.

In all reality, much of the current education reform doesn't work for either girls or boys. This idea that kids can learn like robots and must be able to sit silently for hours for testing is ridiculous and wrong.

[elehhhhna]

119. ...and get paid more for the REST OF THEIR LIVES.

[elehhhhna]

118. Wow. You speak for the cabal of "many" preschool teaching women?

Cool story, bro.

[bettyellen]

121. and they continue to.....

[Orrex]

8. I wish we'd known this back when I was in school.

I'd love to have had someone to blame.

[jwirr]

9. Our schools also place more emphasis on boys in sports than they do girls. Could it be that boys

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)

in 8th grade are more interested in sports than the girls are? This emphasis on interest at various ages is not going to reveal the problems if there even is one. These are children who are maturing and they will differ from one grade to another. I think this whole study is a turning a molehill into a mountain.

[surrealAmerican]

10. There might even be a biological explanation for this gap:

Eighth grade boys would be a roughly the same stage of growth and puberty as sixth grade girls: i.e. having a growth spurt that will make them more tired much of the time, and being inundated with a new set of hormones that makes it difficult to concentrate.

It might not be informative to be comparing eighth grade boys to eighth grade girls.

[seabeyond]

12. point surreal. i will also suggest they are being hit hard with... boys are suppose to be proud of

fox news watching stupid. "elite'ism". that is what i found. i also live in a very religious, rw area.

that was our big battle. started spring 7th grade, into freshman in highschool.

then they start settlin'. they want to be smart again, and shine in class. i have seen it with two boys, and their stories. and oldest son laid it out, byt the time he was a senior. it has all been really itneresting. again. parenting. thinking was a must in our house. expressing and conversing a must. even the friends. they did not get away with non thinking.

it was interesting. now we are a step up.... higher highschool, and university.

[seabeyond]

11. parents... not school places the emphasis.

my family. success was defined and gotten athletically, not academically. they wanted us to get good grades, but the pride in athletic success. adn two boys, one girl. had the same definition for athletic success. it was not gender specific.

a funny story. unknown to me, when my brothers were getting snarky and condescending, disrespectful about my sport, and toughness of it, my father got a hold of my coach and told him my two brothers would be going to morning practice, for a week. he did not expound on any lessons. i was totally unaware. and all my swimming buddies got a good laugh... at the challenge as both brothers woke at 5:30 in the morning.... and jumped into a cold pool.

families. stress their priorities. and until we parents get serious, it is outrageous to make the demand of our school

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. Holy Horseshit, Batman.

[lame54]

15. I am man, hear me whine

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Education is failing boys and those feminists who don't care ARE part of the problem. n/t

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-day/why-boys-are-failing-in-a_b_884262.html

Our modern educational system works for many children, particularly girls, but for some boys (and girls) it places constraints on a very normal and necessary experiential type of learning, not to mention the need of many children to move around rather than sit still. While it may be a cynical statement, I have often felt that co-ed schools are girls' schools that boys go to.

I am not advocating for a return to life in caves and an educational system for boys involving the activities and rituals described in my college anthropology book. What I do advocate for is a greater understanding and appreciation for who boys are and how they learn best, and the subtle pedagogical modifications that would benefit millions of children.

[seabeyond]

18. parents.... are faililng our boys, allowing society to define them. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. No. Parents work within an educational system in which 80% of teachers are women.

When boys get shitty grades, it's the fault of parents.
When boys get good math standardized test scores, it's because math has a gender bias.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that as the posts upthread suggest, this failure of the educational system is a feature, not a bug.

[seabeyond]

23. when did you sign your boys over to the school. cause i NEVER did. not only did i make that clear

to my boys, and a need to do basis, i made it clear to superintendent, principal, and teachers.

[TheFrenchRazor]

67. so this would be a change over decades/centuries past how? teachers in the lower grades have

always been mostly female, and if anything, the education methods in the past have been more "anti-male," i.e., requiring students to sit quietly and passively absorb information. why is it that boys did fine then? i'll tell you why: because males have increasingly marginalized themselves in an unhealthy direction, in their continuous effort to maintain a sense of separateness from and superiority over females. as women have moved into traditionally male areas in the workplace and culture (and rightfully so), some males have engaged in a "male-flight" phenomenon, where they now demean and refuse to participate in these things, because they are considered "too female." unfortunately, many of the female-free zones left in society are also not very healthy, but some males choose these anyway, as a way of "proving their manhood." this can hardly be considered the fault of women or feminism.

[laundry_queen]

68. +1 nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. How old are you?

I once got a swat from my 6th grade teacher for throwing a snowball at recess. I remember being told to take the pocketknife out of my pocket to get it.

I remember getting in a fight during recess with another boy who eventually became my best friend. Neither of us were disciplined. I remember my sex-segregated PE and Sex-ed classes. I remember shop class.

I don't recall ever being asked to sit quietly to passively absorb information except the time my 5th grade teacher took a break from her boring and repetitive... whatever the hell it was, I don't even know what class she was teaching... to ridicule me in class for making an impromptu and imaginary howitzer from a pencil and a three ring binder to take aim at the clock and it's apparently-stationary second-hand.

My middle son was given an "emergency expulsion" for the pocket knife he forgot in his backpack. He was once suspended for a week for talking in class. He went through three high schools before graduating from community college on the Dean's list. Primary and secondary education is designed to help girls succeed, not boys.

[sufrommich]

76. Primary and secondary schools are designed to help

kids succeed. I had my son when I was a teenager.He graduated with honors from high school and the University of Michigan,proving absolutely zilch about your paranoid conspiracy theory.

[TheFrenchRazor]

108. i'm 48, and yes, some things have changed, mostly due to the hysteria over school shootings;

heck, i used to bring a swiss army knife to school and get in fights all the time; i had half the boys in elementary school terrorized. i kid you not. am i saying that this is a good thing? no. truth is, my behavior was a reaction to the fact that i was constantly beaten up by my older brothers, and as far as i knew, violence and intimidation were the normal ways of dealing with things. schools *should* punish and stop this kind of behavior, for christ's sake. as far as your son's suspension for talking, i suspect that that it was probably a case of repeated classroom disruption, and when i was a kid, even boys knew this was wrong.

[YoungDemCA]

20. No.

nt

[Major Nikon]

21. The author must be a MRA

[geek tragedy]

125. Why know, in fact, she's written stuff that the MRA's around

here would never post in their forum.

E.g.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-day/calling-all-men-join-the-_b_926078.html

Calling All Men: Join the Movement Against the Sexualization of Women and Girls

[Major Nikon]

126. I won't dispute that at all

Since there aren't any "MRA"s around here who have self-identified as such, much less have their own "forum".

Of course, I'm well aware you probably meant 'no" instead of "know" and 'group' instead of "forum" and you've used "MRA" in the pejorative as a thinly veiled attempt to denigrate other DUers (while face-planting spectacularly).

Just sayin'

[alp227]

39. Pffft. What a bunch of evolutionary psychology nonsense.

Good luck trying to get these types of accommodations in the workplace. One comment after this article says,

Oh for heaven's sake! The boys in my school who are not doing well could probably do better if they weren't playing video games until 2 A.M. every single morning. Their parents think they're doing homework because they are on the computer (!) and then think they've gone to bed when, unbeknownst to mom and dad, little Johnny is playing Black Ops III for several more hours. It's the same story 99% of the time. The other 1% is Aspergery boys who only want to draw guns or read about the Civil War and believe me, teachers actually try to accommodate those peculiar, narrow interests.

And another,

I really have issues with the new "feminism made my boy unable to learn in school" arguement. As others have pointed out, even back in the 1970s in Catholic school talking back and fidgetting was not allowed by either boys or girls, in fact, I remember the nuns smacking boys with rulers across the knuckles, boys who still went to college. And if kindergarten is now "first grade", well who's fault is that? Parents who want overachieving kids, the same group that probably blasted classical music at the mother's belly for 9 months. And let's not forget the large number of parents who jack their kids up on sugar and sweets and prcessed food and then act so surprised that their kids can't sit still. Is it because they're boys? No, it's because they are boys jacked up on sugar, because I guarantee you that boys in the 1950s were able to control themselves a lot more and genetics haven't changed that much in 50 years. And to the argument that girls are more docile -- that may be true. Less testosterone in their body. HOWEVER, female children are also culturally trained at a very early age to "act like a young lady" while parents say "boys will be boys". Studies have shown that females receive much harsher punishments for acting out or antisocial behavior than boys, and girls intuitively know this. And at the college level I saw girls who did do better than boys -- because they STUDIED.

Schools should prepare kids for the real world, shouldn't they? Where should the line be drawn between what kids want and what kids should be expected to behave like?

[Recursion]

105. Then why are boys doing better in school than they have at any point in the past?

Higher high school graduation rates, higher college matriculation rates, higher college graduation rates... if this is "failing", we could use more failure.

[lumberjack_jeff]

112. Yours is the exact counterargument that the 1% use about wealth inequality.

"What's all the whining about? You are marginally better off because I got rich."

At least most of the posters here have the grace to stick with the pretense that equality is actually a goal.

[Recursion]

114. Yes, I am exactly like the 1%

You caught me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Inequality is good? Then yes, you are. n/t

[elehhhhna]

120. you misread the post or are intentionally making NO sense now

"They're ALL, as a group, doing better than ever" is hardly "I got mine"

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Either...

a) equality is a goal we're actually pursuing or
b) "you peons should quit your jealous whining. You're better off than your ancestors were."

[elehhhhna]

129. you peons etc. is what YOU said.

You.


Why so defensive? It's not an either/or proposition - why frame it that way?

[Iris]

133. the teachers are not creating the modern education system

Administrators, policy makers, politicians and corporate moguls are.

[JaneyVee]

17. WAR ON WOMEN

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. Tantaros and Kilmeade deserve each other. They are both horrid, horrid people.

[SummerSnow]

28. So what is Kilmeade's excuse for being a wuss?

see my point? lol

[Squinch]

32. Maybe boys know they don't need to work as hard because they'll make more money after

they graduate anyway. Why grind when you don't have to?

[Iris]

134. good point.

I with on demand dominated profession every a man holding the same degree can move up the ladder fast simply by being moderately competent

[Igel]

36. One of those things that can't be discussed.

Merely fought. It's personal, ideogical, moral, and therefore not yielding to logic and nuance.

Girls have pretty much always done better as far as grades go as boys. http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-a0036620.pdf

Boys typically do better on STEM-related achievement tests.

There's a nice polarization that takes place.

You can think that it's only fair girls do better than boys; that's not discrimination, it's life. But when it comes to boys doing better, that's prima facie evidence of discrimination.

It's the same for when young women outnumber young men at college. If the split is 45-55%, it's fine if it's 55% women but horrible if it's 45% women. One is a problem; the other is justice.

It's flipped if you reverse the "polarity" of the arguer. Then it's just natural when boys do better and boys are 55% at college, nothing to be upset about.

Justification can be found in biology (testosterone's related to increased ability to mentally manipulate 3-D images, for example--whether you're a straight male or not). It's horrible to point this out, even if you say that it affects high-testosterone females the same as males, or that the difference is small.

Then again, boys act out more, they mature at different paces. That's unfair when it leads to AA males getting higher referral rates in school; but the underlying disproportionality, that males are more disciplined (but not self-disciplined) than girls remains. This, IMHO, is a kind of institutional sexism--boys need to be dealt with differently because, on average, they develop differently. "Everybody's the same" is much the same as "everbody's a girl" in the public schools.

It's only "licit" in many forums to point out biological effects that might account for why boys do worse. It's ill-advised to point out biological effects that might say why girls do better. And you mustn't ever point out biological effects that might justify girls' doing worse. That asymmetry means it's problematic to point out any biological effects, and there are some. (The same asymmetry when it comes to culture makes that a toxic landfill of a minefield to argue over. Again, it's personal, emotional, and disinterested and dispassionate are considered bad.)

We can't rule out role-model effects, either. In a study with boys and girls being instructed by men or women teachers, it was found that boys did better with male teachers and females better with female teachers. However, the *difference* in performance was asymmetric. Boys with a female teacher had a bigger decline in achievement than girls with a male teacher did. (Result, even if absurd: Having only male teachers in a school currently staffed 1/2 male and 1/2 female would raise the overall achievement levels.) In a race-obsessed society we like the claim when it involves race.

We acknowledge it when we overlap race and sex--we need more black male teachers. But we don't like that white males are adversely affected if the teacher cohort is disproportionately female. We even ignore some counter-intuitive results--Asians seldom see Asian teachers and still outperform whites.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/57901230-68/students-teachers-percent-american.html.csp focuses entirely on race. Even then, part of the difference in achievement by race of teacher is ultimately cultural and behavioral--black male teachers interact differently with their black male students and have slightly different norms for behavior, so it's not all student-side effects.

It's a vexed mess. Not being able to discuss it without it degenerating into two sides slinging poo at each other doesn't make it any easier.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. +1 n/t

[woolldog]

63. Thank you.

There's so much hypocrisy around gender issues on DU it makes the board unreadable at times.

[Major Nikon]

69. It gets really interesting if you dig a little deeper into the numbers

The college gender disparity between white males and white females is basically a tie. If you look at the disparity between black males and black females and Hispanic males and Hispanic females, it's even greater than the overall number. So the education system is failing those men who are the most disadvantaged and can least afford it, yet if we make these male advocacy arguments here on DU we are greeted with nonsensical "whining men" empty rhetoric.

[sufrommich]

40. These are the same people who hate affirmative action

and for the same reasons. Evening out the playing field means those who had an advantage and were treated as if that advantage was the norm,now claim their lack of advantage is discrimination. Oh the irony.

[davidn3600]

42. The reasons can be debated, but the statistics is showing a problem with boys and education

[seabeyond]

44. Why compare to women. Are more men getting more degrees than the past? Yes. That has nothing to do

With women increasing their number of degrees to tge point of surpassing men.

[LeftyMom]

45. The AEI appreciates your using their materials again.

It's been pointed out to you before that your source for these charts is Mark J. Perry from the American Enterprise Institute. How long are you going to post right wing material on DU?

Here's some info on Mark Perry's misuse of statistics at AEI: http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/08/debunking-the-myth-of-a-mythical-gender-pay-gap/

[davidn3600]

54. Are you serious right now???

Walk onto any university in this country and you will see far more girls than boys. Are you saying that's not true? Am I just imagining those classrooms with more than 60% girls in them?

[LeftyMom]

58. Non-MRA, Non-AEI sources explain that very well.

Women attend college at higher rates and drop out of college at lower rates in order to compensate for the pay gap they can expect after graduation. This doesn't really work (they're still underpaid and they're burdened by debt) but it's a perfectly understandable phenomenon.

Women are also largely excluded from well-paying careers that don't require higher education, notably the trades. This is still true in 2014.

You need to read less biased sources.

[davidn3600]

78. The fact you care so little about the other gender is a bit alarming...

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young sang that we should teach our children well and feed them of our dreams, but for millions of parents of sons, dreams are only that, and boys are falling behind educationally at an alarming rate in this country. Richard Whitmire, author of Why Boys Fail, Michael Gurian, author of The Minds of Boys: Saving Our Sons from Falling Behind in School and in Life, and many other authors and educational experts proclaim that we have a crisis in the education of boys in this country. The media attention to this topic has been extensive in recent years, yet I do not see the systemic changes that are needed.

Gurian's book presents statistics that boys get the majority of D's and F's in most schools, create 90 percent of the discipline problems, are four times more likely than girls to be diagnosed with ADHD and be medicated, account for three out of four children diagnosed learning disabilities, become 80 percent of the high school dropouts, and now make up less than 45 percent of the college population. If you look in your newspaper right now, in June, you will see the photos and bios of valedictorians from many of your local high schools, and will notice that the majority of them these days are girls.

According to Whitmire, children are forced to use literacy skills much earlier than in the past, and boys develop these skills later than girls. In the world of "Kindergarten is the new first grade," boys are struggling mightily to keep up. When it comes to writing, the gender divide is even greater. NCLB and our hyper-focus on standardized test scores is worsening, not ameliorating, the academic struggles of boys, and subsequently increasing the numbers of boys who turn off to school and eventually drop out.

According to Gurian, boys learn by doing and by moving their bodies through space. The more emphasis is placed on the development of early reading skills, and the less emphasis is placed on a healthy amount of movement and experiential learning, the more disadvantageous our schools will be for males.

Our boys need our attention, and although some of what I'm about to write pertains to girls as well as boys, and although gender differences naturally fall across a continuum and no single description fits all boys or all girls, there are nonetheless a number of characteristics that differentiate the two genders generally speaking.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-day/why-boys-are-failing-in-a_b_884262.html


But feminists say all this is meaningless because of the pay gap.

[LeftyMom]

79. So your sources are the AEI and an "education consultant" who gets rich kids into rich kid colleges?

http://www.loridayconsulting.com/

Come the fuck on.

[davidn3600]

81. How about several teachers and personal experience with the education system??

Over the years I've talked to several teachers, including a few that have taught high school in my own family. They tell me the same exact things I'm posting here. My aunt taught high school English for over 30 years. And her position today...we don't teach boys the right way anymore.

My younger brother when he was in public school system, had a learning disability. They kept putting him into one class after another. And eventually he just dropped out. My parents were able to get a grant so he can go to a private school. He graduated with top grades and went on to college.

This is what's happening to our schools today. I seriously don't give a flying rats ass what you think of anything I post. I've researched this myself and I've got family and acquaintances that have worked in the public school system for decades. I trust them a hell of a lot more than you.

[LeftyMom]

83. Well that's a convincing argument.

I've got a family tree full of teachers too. Strangely none of them seem to have noticed this oppressive gynocracy.

We both know where you've "researched this" and we've already established that your sources are fallacious and biased against women.

[giftedgirl77]

88. Jury Results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sun May 4, 2014, 06:57 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The reasons can be debated, but the statistics is showing a problem with boys and education
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4908559

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

These charts are materials generated by the AEI, a conservative right wing think tank that also funds propaganda skeptical of global warming. Poster has been called out for using this material before, pretty sure that's he doesn't list or link to the source. This MRA propaganda does not belong on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun May 4, 2014, 07:11 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: So call it out. No need to hide it, just refute it and let the facts stand.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: So refute it. Why tell 7 people when you can tell everyone?
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Quote: "This MRA propaganda does not belong on DU". It doesn't and I'm sick and tired of seeing it here.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Then debunk it in your comment. My god, are we afraid to look at crappy charts? The use of their propaganda is that we get to hone our arguments debunking them, so we can make short work of them every time the RW brings them in to win the debate. Excellent prep for Thanksgiving and other happy meals.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerting on graphs really?

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. If the facts are not on your side, argue the principles.

If the principles (in this case equality) are not on your side, argue the facts.

If neither the principles nor the facts are on your side, call the messenger Hitler.

The facts on which the alerted post were based on are from the department of education - not the boogey man.

[giftedgirl77]

91. Sometimes this place amazes me with the stupid

shit that goes on.

[Iris]

135. what stupid shit? calling out right wing sources? that used to be the norm on DU

What the hell happened?

[giftedgirl77]

137. What right wing sources?

Someone alerted on graphs & nothing more. No substance or anything else.

[Iris]

138. ALERTER'S COMMENTS- These charts are materials generated by the AEI, a conservative right wing think

tank that also funds propaganda skeptical of global warming. Poster has been called out for using this material before, pretty sure that's he doesn't list or link to the source. This MRA propaganda does not belong on DU.

These charts are materials generated by the AEI, a conservative right wing think tank that also funds propaganda skeptical of global warming. Poster has been called out for using this material before, pretty sure that's he doesn't list or link to the source. This MRA propaganda does not belong on DU.

[giftedgirl77]

142. Jury results 2-5 to leave & told the alerter the alert was

weak. You coming back now & trying to argue the same point again is ridiculous.

[Iris]

143. No, it's not. it's not ridiculous for people who have been here for a while, played by the rules,

and learned to judge shit from shinola to have to see this kind of bullshit over and over.

[giftedgirl77]

145. Oh well, such as life.

[Recursion]

99. Not at all. Boys are much better off academically than a generation ago

There's not a single metric by which male academic achievement is worse than it was 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. This is not success.

What Challenges Are Boys Facing and What Opportunities Exist to Address those Challenges?

In Brief:
Facts About How Boys Are Doing

There’s both good news and bad news about how boys in America are faring.

Boys are doing better than they did a decade or more ago across a variety of indicators, including juvenile justice involvement, dropout rates, and substance use.

Today, boys commit fewer property crimes, such as burglary, car theft, and arson, than they did in the late 1980s.(1)
Boys’ smoking rates are lower today than in the mid- to late 1990s. Their drinking rates have also declined.(2)
Since 1995, boys’ dropout rates have fallen.(3)
Between 1994 and 2004, fewer boys between the ages of 10 and 18 have died each year.(4) (Boys are most often killed in accidents, such as car crashes, followed by homicide and suicide.)
Boys are using their time constructively: One study found that nearly half of high school senior boys play a sport, more than a quarter take part in community affairs or volunteer at least once or twice per month, more than a quarter are part of a school club or activity, and about one-fifth play music or do other performing arts.(5)
A greater percentage of high school senior boys volunteered their time in 2006 than in the early 1990s.(6)
However, boys are still facing challenges in many areas:

In 2004, almost three-quarters of young people prosecuted in juvenile courts were boys.(7) Their most common law-violating behaviors were vandalism, theft, and assault.(8)
From 1997 to 2003, around 85 percent of all juveniles in residential placement were boys.(9)
More than 1 out of every 8 tenth grade boys surveyed in 2006 had smoked at least one cigarette in the previous month.(10)
About 1 in every 6 eighth grade boys surveyed in 2006 had drunk alcohol in the previous month.(11)
Nearly 40 percent of twelfth grade boys surveyed in 2006 had used illegal drugs in the past year.(12)
While adolescent boys report depression less frequently than girls, depressed boys are more resistant to treatment and more likely to commit suicide.(13)
While overall dropout rates have declined, in 2004, boys still represented over half (56 percent) of school dropouts ages 16 to 24.(14)
Almost twice as many boys as girls ages 3 to 17 have been diagnosed with ADHD.(15)
The employment rate for high school boys between the ages of 16 and 18 dropped from 33 percent in the 1995-1996 school year to 25 percent in the 2003-2004 school year.(16)
In 2006, 7 percent of boys were out of school and unemployed.(17)
A boy is more likely to be a victim of a serious violent crime, such as assault, robbery, and homicide, as he gets older: 15- to 19-year-old boys are much more often victims of those crimes than are 10- to 14-year-old boys.(18),(19)
Research also shows that specific subpopulations of boys are experiencing particular struggles:

From 1995 through 2005, American Indian/Alaska Native boys ages 10 to 18 consistently had higher rates of suicide and death by motor vehicle crashes than White, African American, and Hispanic boys.(20)
In 2004, the homicide rate for African American teen boys was 55 per 100,000. That’s more than double the homicide rate for Hispanic boys, nearly 4 times the rate for American Indian boys, and nearly 20 times the rate for non-Hispanic White boys.(21)
Although racial disparity in the juvenile justice system is declining, the violent crime arrest rate for African American juveniles was still four times that of White juveniles in 2003.(22)
African American and Hispanic adolescents have improved their performance on standardized tests over the last 20 years; however, their achievement continues to be lower than that of their White peers.(23)
In 2004, 7 percent of White adolescents ages 16 to 24 were high school dropouts, compared with 12 percent of African American adolescents and 24 percent of Hispanic adolescents.(24)

Incarceration rates for African American male high school dropouts more than doubled between 1980 and 1999.(25)
In 2005, 49 percent of Hispanic males, 47 percent of White males, and 30 percent of African American males in high school had at least one drink of alcohol within 30 days of being surveyed.(26)

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Third Way thinking strikes again....

http://www.thirdway.org/co_chairs

[ileus]

48. They're wanting to move my 4th grade boy to 6th next year.

Wonder if his equally as smart sister is to blame?

[Coventina]

53. So much for "personal responsibility"

Those boys should stop playing the victim and pull themselves up by their bootstraps!!

[oldandhappy]

55. My nephew has parents

who make sure he gets his homework done -- absolutely. And he is doing well.

It is so easy for us to blame blame blame. Usually the simple answer helps. Do homework.

[City Lights]

56. What a load of crap.

[ismnotwasm]

71. Bwahahahaha

A joke right? Because last time I checked studies are still showing inequities in how boys and girls are treated in subjects in the sciences. Boys aren't being neglected-- girls are being raised up.

Boys and their their parents are going to have to keep up with the changing landscape. For example Boys who excel in sports will have to earn their grades.


Most importantly though--all gender issues aside, ALL schools should have the funding and resources to support kids. If a child is slipping there should be someone there to catch him/her

[Warpy]

74. Back in the 1950s, there were a lot of hand wringing articles

in the kind of magazines found in waiting rooms about "Why Johnny Can't Read." I was about 10 when I finally asked my mother if they'd ever considered Johnny was just plain stupid.

She said that was most likely the case but that bad things happened to little girls who suggested that all boys weren't the brilliant intellectual lights that would fully illuminate our muddled world.

She was right, of course, and I learned to paddle my own canoe and do my own thing quietly.

[jimlup]

80. As a male HS teacher...

yeah, Fox news is insane.

Boys are indeed falling significantly behind and it is problem for our society which we had better notice or we will pay a grave price. But it has nothing to do with feminism.

[ismnotwasm]

85. Thank you

Feminists are aware of this problem, and I suspect it has to do with underfunding of schools, the underpaying of teachers, the costs of college etc. not the fact that girl have been given permission to dream to become physicists.

These kind of divisive discussion Almost never address core problems, and instead pit people against one another

[jimlup]

86. Yes - it isn't an "us" or "them" thing

Nor are any of these gender issues.

What the professionals who study this scientifically say is that it is about what is taught in school and how boys are currently relating to it. Girls are better at verbal processing and organizing. That is a fact of our brains. As a result - because much of what is done in school involves applied verbal reasoning - girls are out pacing boys.

I think this gap has been present for as long as we've been making the measurement but lately it has grown and I suspect some of this is due to raising standards in verbal reasoning (a worthwhile goal.) Anyway, I personally suspect that boys are being significantly hit by modern video games and other electronic distractions. While girls may text and log on to Facebook all the time, boys are playing mindless video games (and probably downloading porn.) One is more compatible with academic success than the other!

Anyway, if we could see working on the problem as helping our sons become better students rather than "sexism" in either direction then we are making progress.

[Harmony Blue]

84. Feminism isn't to blame for boys falling behind

but our society does put more emphasis on nurturing and empowering females while males are viewed as tools to send off to war. Ironically these boys go in the trades despite poor grades and are economically better off and avoid big college debt.

Outsiders view these young boys and men as slackers and having no ambition. Their female peers like men with ambition and status and yet these boys turn their nose at these traditional role of worker drone. They are able to work in the trades making good money and acquiring skills very important in our service driven economy.

Feminism has been a beacon of light for men to walk away from relationships and marriage so it isn't empowerment for women alone. Traditional roles are no more.

[Starry Messenger]

87. Gosh, I hope the number of posters rushing to agree with Fox news gets the attention of DU's owners.

[DirkGently]

89. Wildly tortured logic on FOX? Say it ain't so!

[dsc]

92. Several thoughts

First, to blame feminism or some sort of woman conspiracy for this is nonsense. Also two different, but related, statistics are being conflated here. But that said, there is a very real crisis for males, particularly males of color, in our high schools. One only has to teach a class of people repeating a class and/or high level classes to see this. The first class with be made up largely of males of color and the second will have virtually no males of color in it. I have worked in schools that were majority minority for nearly my entire teaching career and in all of them except the ones which had no whites in them, white students and particularly white females made up the substantial majority of the upper level (honors and ap) classes I taught while minority males made up a similarly large majority of the classes that were either repeaters or lower level classes. It didn't matter if the schools had white principals or black principals, or if the teaching staff in my department was overwhelmingly female or closer to parity. Given that I teach math, the subject in which females have traditionally fared the worst in terms of numbers, I can only imagine what upper level classes in other disciplines look like. Race and gender are both involved here, to be sure, but gender is playing a part and it is by no means trivial.

Add in the fact that males are way, way, way more likely to get suspended (especially black ones) and the picture gets even worse.

I can't speak nearly as much to the college stats since I don't work at a college.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. The die is cast long before they get to your grade level

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/sep/01/girls-boys-schools-gender-gap

By secondary school, it's too late to fix the problem.

[YoungDemCA]

94. Reading some of the responses here *almost* makes me regret posting this thread

I guess thinly veiled misogyny/anti-feminism, via posting right-wing MRA talking points about "the crisis of boys in education", is A-OK.

not required.

[seabeyond]

96. all thru the school years of my boys, i watched excuses made for boys that did not do well.

more than anything, all teachers were looking for was support from the parent, looking to do their job for the children, a win for the children. and so often met with excuses.

that is all this is. excuses. it made me sick over the years, watching it with the boys friends. and too many boys successful for the excuses to be taken seriously. the boys that were successful came from an environment of high expectation. nothing else was acceptable. and excuses were not made.

raising two boys... i cannot stand that this is promoted, selling our boys short

i do not even care about the part of blaming feminists. that is beyond absurd and ridiculous, but not the issue

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. Y'all are heavily invested in denying that the problem exists.

The problem and your tactics in addressing it are as clear as can possibly be. Acknowledging the nature and scope of the problem is obviously immensely threatening to many self-described feminists such as yourself.

There's a logical fallacy called "Reductio ad Hitlerum", an association fallacy which essentially is the refuting of any argument by noting that Hitler once said something similar. It is a completely bogus, transparent and weak tactic, even when substituting Fox News for Hitler.

Although it may be an overstatement to say that feminism is the cause of the problem it is demonstrably true that many feminists have zero interest in fixing or even acknowledging it, present company most definitely included.

[seabeyond]

101. who brought up hitler but you. and ya.... i take this seriously. our boys. and our boys education

damn straight i am PERSONALLY heavily invested in my boys education. i have been smack in the middle of it for working on two decades. and i think your argument is bogus. it has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with years of watching parents blame teachers instead of rolling up their sleeves and doing the work, supporting the teachers, and having high expectation of their kids.

i had a son that had learning challenges and the first three years drugs being suggested. instead, working with the schools finding ways for him to implement tools so he would not got thru life drugged.

another son that has charmed his way thru school since pre k and an extremely high iq, .... yet lazy as all get up, putting in no effort what so ever.

i am going to blame the school, as he spend his whole day entertaining and charming the teachers and students?

i have done the research on boys education. if they are being deprived, should boys be in a different setting, do better with male teachers, or if male teachers are being denied the lower education positions.

i disagree with your conclusions. i have from day one. as you have with mine. totally disagree.

nothing to do with helping or not helping our boys. or feminism. i think you and your position is hurting our boys.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. Acknowledging the problem and demanding attention to it isn't "hurting our boys"

I doubt that most feminists believe that this is a fundamental purpose of feminism. But there are clearly those who do, and they can be easily identified by their lazy and patently stupid "Oooo! Look! He's kind of agreeing with something that was said on Fox News!!!" posts.

If you think "my position" is hurting our boys, you don't understand it.

Lots of research exists to understand the problem and to suggest methods to address it. What's missing is any desire, intent or will to implement those suggestions.

[seabeyond]

113. I think you are wrong and have stated why I believe you are incorrect

[seabeyond]

103. further jeff, it is a good thing that i did not buy into this crap. selling my boys short. seeing

how the areas they really excel, out perform are the "girl" areas. you know. the ones the boys cannot do at all. that the whole system has to be changed for the boys, cause they are incapable.

conversing, language, reading comprehension, writing. all that girlie stuff.

the stuff my boys are not only the top in their schools, all thru their years, but one son top in the nation.

good thing... i fought for my sons right to be their unique self and not sold short by this push the mra are doing with our sons, or both my boys would have missed out on their opportunities.

[BainsBane]

130. Again, it falls to feminism to take care of males

Because our responsibility is to do what men insist we should, although they can't be bothered to act themselves.
Is it also the responsibility of African Americans groups like the NAACP to take care of whatever complaints white people have?
Why haven't you brought peace to the Middle East. You must not care at all about Jews and Muslims. Talk about logical fallacies.

Your condemnation of feminists for fighting for women's issues rather than addressing your concern about boys in school demonstrates that you, as well as the MRA groups that regularly make the same argument, see women as responsible for looking after males and the interests of men, who take no responsibility for anything other than pointing the finger at feminists. In such ideology, women are so unimportant that feminists have no legitimacy unless we cater to what men want. Men should be able to sit back and make us do their bidding because, after all, they are men and we are mere women. The very definition of feminism involves fighting for women's rights, just as civil rights groups fight for their respective communities of color. Are those movements also illegitimate for not catering to white people, or are women's movements unique in being so unimportant that you see their function as to serve you instead?

The answer to why boys do not do as well is that they don't work as hard. Women who are mothers are responsible for seeing that their children do their homework and study hard, just as fathers are. Blaming feminists is a cop out and tells me how little Fox, MRAs, and their ilk actually care about this issue. If those same groups that constantly complain about feminists responsible for the achievement gap in schools spent as much time devoted to setting up volunteer tutoring programs and homework groups as they do blaming feminists, the problem would be solved.

Additionally, you are the one who pointed to SAT results as proof that boys are so much smarter and learn better than girls. If that were really true, why would you worry about grades? Which is it? Or is every story simply an opportunity to point to the supposed superiority of men and evils of women who have the audacity to concern themselves with their own lives and their own rights?

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. I don't feel that should be the case.

Only people who think feminism is about equality should.

[bettyellen]

139. feminsts who care about equality should force boys to study, and men to go to doctors to use the

health care thaat they have available to them but ignore?

Maybe they should also pick mens' socks of the floor to make sure an equal amount goes in the hamper too? LOL.

[lumberjack_jeff]

144. Feminists who don't care about the well being of boys and men shouldn't hide behind "equality".

It's a transparent pretense.

[bettyellen]

146. They're interested in achieving equality for women, silly...

You know- those people who used to be considered property?
If you want to help with charter schools - for example- find out why boys are declining the opportunities they HAVE. Same with health care- maybe figure out why are men squandering opportunities they actually do already have if your interested in equal outcomes.
Because forcing men to make smarter choices is not on feminists. We're not your mommy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. "equality for me" is an oxymoron. Equality for me *demands* equality for you.

Anything less is marketing and sloganeering.

[bettyellen]

148. Women work toward equal opportunities because they were denied them-

Refusing to take the opportunities you already HAVE is a uniquely male problem. You guys should get on that, and get over any notion that someone should do it for you.

[Starry Messenger]

107. The hit dogs yelped.

[geek tragedy]

123. Transparency is good, always good to see who aligns

with conservatives/traditionalists/anti-feminists.

Not that there are any surprises.

[Recursion]

98. And yet, boys are doing better than they did "before feminism"

At least, boys are doing better in school than they have at any point since we started tracking student performance 50 years ago.

[seabeyond]

102. of course they are. and that does not seem to matter. it is all about the fact girls, once given

the opportunity is out performing. which is not to say, the boys are not doing better than the past.

i hate this argument. it is so ass backward. and it is garbage like this that is always blaming teachers, pushing more and more test, experimenting on the kids to the point. that fuck.... i am glad both boys are almost out of the system.

[Recursion]

104. Yeah, there was a chart here that was a huge red flag for me.

"percent of college graduates that are male" or something like that -- who the hell cares? The important question for somebody worried about men's welfare or whatever would be "percent of males that are college graduates" -- an indicator that's looking good lately.

[randome]

141. Nice sig-line. Maybe I didn't notice it before.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ohio Joe]

106. This thread is fascinating...

Faux being agreed with and supported on DU...Sheesh.

[geek tragedy]

124. there are entire user groups here dedicated to agreeing with fox. nt

[Iris]

136. it's not fascinating; it's disgusting

I dont know why it's allowed to continue

[Tom Ripley]

110. Very special personal responsibility from Fox News

[Hippo_Tron]

128. If my gender made .70 for every dollar the other one did, I'd work harder in school too

[randome]

140. Fucking women!

Oh. Wait. That's exactly what the Fox News hosts don't get to do because they're misogynist throw-backs! And they're jealous and bitter as hell.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]