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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBye-bye, whiny white dudes: Tucker Carlson, Tal Fortgang and the weakening grip of entitlement
Bye-bye, whiny white dudes: Tucker Carlson, Tal Fortgang and the weakening grip of entitlementThe relevance of jerks like Fortgang and Carlson has never been more tenuous -- which is why they're whining harder
KATIE MCDONOUGH
Princeton University freshman Tal Fortgang is the current face of white dude entitlement, but hes not the only reminder we have right now about what happens when sheltered boys enter the world feeling that theyre owed something and believing that their actions dont have consequences.
Call it whatever youd like. Toxic masculinity. Frat mentality. Patriarchal bullshittery. But put really simply, the problem is that our culture doesnt generally encourage boys to feel compassion or curiosity beyond a very narrow sphere of their experience, and then some grow up to be terrible jerks.
And the pathetic thing is that a smug and racist editorial written by a college freshman with a tiny baby brain a piece that should have died on the pages of a college newspaper but was embarrassingly propped up as legitimate commentary by Time magazine is a comparatively benign example of what happens when boys are raised not to think much about other people.
Epidemic levels of sexual violence on college campuses, the racist misogyny that characterizes so much of fraternity life, the male politicians who spout off about legitimate rape, the high school and college football coaches who ignore reports of sexual assault to shield their players from accountability these are all part of the same problem.
more
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/08/bye_bye_whiny_white_dudes_tucker_carlson_tal_fortgang_and_the_weakening_grip_of_entitlement/
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)IMO, it's a refusal to accept the premise that one would have failed or been far less successful if they had not born a white male. In essence, that amounts to allowing someone else to define your own sense of self worth. No one should ever do that
Enrique
(27,461 posts)it's the cluelessness shown in that Tal Fortgang essay, where he is so preoccupied with his self-worth that he fails to even begin to understand the important issues about privilege.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Leaving the trust fund babies aside, there are many people who started life with little or nothing but were very successful. I'll cite my parents as an example. My mother grew up dirt poor in what is now Slovenia and came over when she was 6 with literally nothing. My father was orphaned at 8, never went to high school and he too started life with nothing. Both worked various jobs and ultimately, my father had a successful career as an insurance agent. My mother stayed at home and raised me and my brother. By any standard, they were enormously successful in life. I attribute their success to having a strong moral compass, working hard and never giving up. I don't see where either of them enjoyed any privilege despite the fact that they lived in a different era.
There are many people like my parents and asking them to attribute their success to privilege is asking them to diminish their sense of accomplishment and their sense of self worth. IOW, they got where they are because they were white and their efforts had little to do with it. That's just not going to happen and pushing that meme is only going to create animosity.
I don't believe that pushing the "white privilege" argument serves anyone's interest. Besides the animosity, I believe it reinforces a defeatist attitude, that says "because I'm not a white male, I can't succeed".
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)are you okay with arguing that someone born into money is born into privilege, as their wealth meant their not having to struggle as your "nothing having" parents did?
Clearly you are; but are you also okay with, or willing to accept that wealthy person arguing that you should not raise the issue of their wealth as a privilege because "serves anyone's interest", as it would be "asking them to diminish their sense of accomplishment and their sense of self worth" and it "reinforces a defeatist attitude, that says 'because I'm not a wealthy, I can't succeed'?"
What's different?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Being born into wealth fits the description of privilege, for sure, but a sense of accomplishment and self worth is something that is earned regardless of your economic station. There are trust fund babies who grow up to be wealthy bums and don't accomplish anything. IMO, being born wealthy raises the bar in terms of what justifies a sense of accomplishment and self worth.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)are black, female, and born into affluence/wealth?
Does that shift the prism?
I feel more in alignment with poor black people than I do - say - someone like Tucker Carlson.
I feel more in alignment with Harold Ford - than I would Jay Z.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)The short answer is no. You can still be a wealthy bum and you still have to earn your sense of accomplishment.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)For example, I happen to have had the son of a bank president in one of my classes. Arrogant and dismissive of the poor, he was. He had worked in a factory one summer and said "anybody can do those jobs".
He got an A in my class and was going to get a degree - on a daddy scholarship.
Okay, so he really does "work" a little to get that degree, and then gets his VP job from his dad, or from his dad's connections and takes his rightful place at the top, or near the top and from there he "works" to get to the top.
Now with dad retired, HE is the Bank President.
And he thinks "I worked to get where I am".
Which he did - in some ways.
But in many other ways, he got where he was by his family advantages - the college expenses paid by parents, the initial job he got through family connections, even his summer jobs.
Important for him to recognize the ways he was "born on 3rd base" instead of deluding himself into thinking he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and everybody else can too.
To complete the analogy though, it seems to me that the advantages, such as they are, to maleness or white skin are less like being born on 3rd base than they are being born perhaps three feet away from home plate - not even enough of an advantage to guarantee a single.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)To justify a sense of accomplishment, your bank president's son would need to achieve things in areas where did not enjoy such an advantage or use his position to do things that benefit people who are less fortunate than he is.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)I think it gave me an edge over other black Americans that did not grow up with the advantages I had. It did not give me an edge over a white male that started at the same point I did.
My paternal grandfather was a graduate of Morehouse in the 19-teens. His father never had less than 100K in the bank. A tremendous amount of money for a man born in the deep South in the Reconstruction Era.
It didn't insulate my grandfather - and it didn't open the door to Wall Street. It did give him a shot to get into the liquor business so he could send his nine surviving children to college ( born over an 18 year period) and the ability to leave all 33 of his grandchildren his "wealth" . . . When we turned 31 and had obtained a 4 year degree. Those were his rules.
Hence why I feel for Harold Ford. TN chewed him up and spit him out - good for him for getting that job on Wall Street that neither his grandfather ( we come from the same type of background) nor mine had a shot in hell at 100 years ago. I don't feel for Mitt Romney. If I have to feel for him or Jay Z - I feel for Jay Z. He's done well for himself - but admire the grit it took him to get where he is.
But he hasn't experienced the polite smile in your face then call you a nigger as you walk away that someone like Harold Ford has. I'd bet Jay Z has never been called uppity.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(Not to simplify you response; but ...)
If one is wealthy and accomplishes stuff, they are privileged but entitled to their sense of accomplishment and self-worth, giving no thought to the fact that their path was smoothed because of their wealth; but the trust funder that doesn't accomplish anything, they are privileged and not able to claim accomplishment. Right?
I agree with the latter, but not the former.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)To say that you can't justify a sense of self worth and sccomplishment because you are wealthy is not reasonable.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Where did anyone say this? Sounds like a strawman. And believe me, "a sense of self-worth and accomplishment" was the last thing wrong with that kid's essay.
Cartoonist
(7,321 posts)The biggest lie a white person can say is: "I made it on my own." And I'm not talking about infrastructure. The institutionalized racism of white society smooths the road to success. I am white and I've worked hard all my life, but I know the ease with which I've gotten work owes a lot to white privilege. It may be subtle or it may be obvious, but it's there.
A simple example: I remember being incensed reading the comments of a rich white real estate agent figuratively spitting on minorities who couldn't achieve the same success he had. As if any black man could have had the same access to the corridors of white wealth that he had.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Because it's really not about "ease" ... It was no doubt still difficult for you to get positions, though probably not as difficult as your Black/woman peer. And those positions were no doubt earned ... just without having to clear the racial/gender bar.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)all on its own.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)a black person and it sets off the alarm, they likely will just continue walking while the black person is stopped.
If your child enters our schools, where about 80 percent of the teachers are white while the classroom is much, much less white, the odds of your black child doing to detention or jail are FAR higher than that of a white kid committing the same offense. And a black kid that has been sent to juvie/jail is about 12% more likely to NOT graduate high school, and 25% more likely to wind up in prison.
If you are white and driving down the road next to a black person, the odds of them being pulled over before you, even if no one is committing a crime, is about 200 times more likely.
If you are black and tried to get a housing loan in 2004-2006, it is very likely you were charged a higher interest rate, even if you had as good or better a job, or as good or better a credit record, and there is a lot of paper out there to prove it, along with a few investigations that documented it. Nothing happened, and those families got screwed along with everyone else.
The point of privilege is that white people don't work any harder than black people, but they are ALLOWED to work. The black person may, at any time, find themselves taken into custody, beaten, or cheated only because of the color of their skin,'
Thus, there is a privilege of freedom that white people have, that black people (and others of color) do not.
It seems to me that "Framing the issue as privilege creates a conflict that cannot be resolved" is an argument that suits white people very well. Because it could be resolved tomorrow if white people would quit giving other white people a pass on fucking over black people.
The real problem is that a lot of these self-righteous assholes like Carlson think it's about them, about all their work - ie. about them. That's where they make their mistake.
It's not about you. It's about the lives that are ruined because a lot of people with the thought process in the argument above largely refuse to treat others as complete human beings.
But, they have the privilege of not doing so because, frankly, they can go on and work hard and pat each other on the back while their black neighbor is being dragged to the hoosegow, mostly for being black.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)on fucking over black people."
EXACTLY. This "calling it white privilege isn't helpful" bullshit is so incredibly myopic and wrongheaded.
"It's not about you. It's about the lives that are ruined because a lot of people with the thought process in the argument above largely refuse to treat others as complete human beings.
But, they have the privilege of not doing so because, frankly, they can go on and work hard and pat each other on the back while their black neighbor is being dragged to the hoosegow, mostly for being black."
So spot on. Thank you for this post.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Though being a more practically minded person myself, I can't frame it in terms of "privilege" for "whites", at least not in the literal sense which seems to have become so popular in recent years.
And frankly, I *do* agree about Carlson; he IS indeed a self-righteous asshole. So's Fortgang.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If it's not a privilege to not be subjected to that, what would you call it?
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Enrique
(27,461 posts)really, isn't there already a conflict?
Second, "...is asking them to diminish their sense of accomplishment and their sense of self worth."
This really hits it on the head as I see it. How important is that in the scheme of things? In the face of the reality of privilege?
At one extreme is people like Tal Fortgang, for whom their sense of accomplishment is so very precious that they feel the need to get nasty and stupid about it when it gets challenged in the slightest.
I have no evidence that you are anywhere near the extreme Tal Fortgang is, all you did is bring up your parents' sense of accomplishment, you didn't get nasty and racist about it like he did.
I wonder, did you read Fortgang's essay?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)I've never had much success with that by doing things that create or exacerbate animosity. I believe that pushing the "white privilege" meme does that.
I skimmed Fortgang's essay to get the flavor. I can't say I read it carefully.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Trying to get people to see that their experience is not actually the standard, and that we still have a long way to go in addressing racism.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)So how do you suggest the Privilege issue be framed in such a manner as to spur those receiving the benefit to come onto "my side"? Or, were you referring to avoiding the topic so that we all, man and woman, Black and white, can come together to fight income inequity?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)That is not happening; needs to change and should be framed as a fairness issue, not a "you got more than you deserve" or "you would have failed if you weren't white" issue. No need to repeat what I've said in other posts - I'm sure there are many people who recognize the inequity and who would support steps to correct it that are being alienated by what constitutes a personal attack. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
I also thinks there needs to be a reassessment of the causes of the inequity and what can be done to fix it. I don't want to open a can of worms, but I think that black people should focus on things that serves their own best interests regardless of the politics involved. Education comes immediately to mind and I'm thinking of access to better schools. I've lived in the NYC area my whole life (I'm 64) and public schools here have been awful since I was in school. That those schools are the only option available to many black kids in NYC is disgraceful. I was fortunate that my folks could pay NYC taxes and still afford to send me to a private school. I would like to see as many inner city kids as possible have that opportunity, but it's a politically divisive issue and any steps that get proposed are immediately demonized as an attack on public schools. I can't help but wonder who's interests are really being looked out for when that happens. I also wonder why black parents don't make more of an issue about this. (In fairness, there was quite an outcry recently over DeBlasio's efforts to shut down charter schools and the parents demonstrating about reflected an inner city demographic. That kind of a response over being forced to attend crappy public schools needs to become much more common). In summary, access to a quality education is essential to solving this problem. I had that and I believe all kids should have it - why not frame that as an issue and seek an open discussion with all options on the table?
I could go on but I'm not going to. To be sure, institutionalized racism is a big factor in the obstacles black people face, but it's not the only one.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Ask us. We will tell you. Without the Biggest hurdle, we could start taking care of the rest. But this needs to happen first for us to benefit fully from the hard work we do. And we work hards as hell and always have in America. But we still get told that we are the problem or that what we think is our problem isn't the the only problem so we need to focus on the 'other' stuff.
Nay i say!!! We need to fix this. Now!!!!! Putting race issues on the back burner has led us to a place where our sons are killed for just being. Our men are arrested and imprisoned in the new slavery of profit corporate prisons while we have been waiting and speaking softly.
I think in your face reality is much better than sugar coating things so as to not make the majority uncomfortable is stupid for us black people to do. We aren't comfortable!!! Nobody sugarcoats stuff for us!!!?
Better to just keep it real and tell the truth and those that find the truth uncomfortable will have to just deal. Just like we have been dealing with oppression for 400 years.
Whats worse? Living a life of oppression, or hearing about it in a way that makes one uncomfortable?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)I'm not going to get into a debate about what are causes and what are effects.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I figured you wouldn't want to get in to that. My reality seems to make you feel uncomfortable.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have an opinion on what the problem is that requires him/her to action to upset the (straight) white, male status quo ... it is rejected as divisive.
He/she has an opinion on what the problem is that requires nothing from him/her.
Funny how that works.
Am I to understand that white supremacy (that supports racism and is a system of white privilege) is a problem for Black folks to fix; but by NOT making white folks uncomfortable ... or they (white folks) will continue supporting the white supremacy status quo, by doing nothing.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Nobody ever want to get into a discussion about 'that stuff'.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Where do you think a discussion about what issues need to be fixed by the "privileged" and what issues need to be fixed by the people impacted by racism would lead? Such a discussion could go on all night without agreement about anything. Besides that, I'm concerned it could get ugly, so I don't want to go there.
I don't believe anyone's hands are completely clean. Let's leave it at that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)"I don't believe anyone's hands are completely clean."
Yeah, because "reverse racism" is just as bad as centuries of oppression, don'cha know...
Anybody want to take bets on how long it would take this guy to mention "gangsta rap" or "thug culture"?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Specifically, teenage pregnancy and single parent households. Can we agree that, irrespective of race, becoming a teenage parent makes it highly likely that the child and parent(s) will live a life of poverty? From what I've seen, the rates of teenage pregnancy in the black community are still nearly double that of white teens. How about children being raised in single parent (usually mothers only) households? The stats I've seen for black kids still have the number at more than 70% compared to about 24% for the population as a whole. Again, I believe this puts black kids at a disadvantage compared to the population as a whole. Maybe you think it doesn't matter and is not a factor in the difficulties black kids face growing up, but I think you're delusional if you believe that. Moreover, this is an issue that the black community owns and needs to address on its own.
As far as the music goes, I really don't care about gansta rap very much one way or the other - I just think it's not very good. I used to like pop music, but the quality there went down the crapper quite some time ago. I mostly listen to classical music now. I have a question for you about that: Beethoven's 9th Symphony was first performed to a sold out house in 1827 and still sells out in a matter of hours, maybe minutes, when a performance is announced. Do you think gangsta rap will do that almost 200 years from now? If you are lucky enough to score tickets to a live performance of the 9th, by all means go and let me know what you think.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)For instance, the racist (always, from the very beginning) "war on drugs" and the resultant epidemic incarceration of disproportionately black males has a lot to do with family breakdown, and yes, single parenthood. Should we encourage stable families? Of course, and birth control, proper educational funding, and non-stereotypical media depictions of African-Americans will all help with that. When people have the chance to limit the size of their families, and to succeed educationally and vocationally, a lot of this stuff will take care of itself. We all seem to acknowledge that giving people a real chance to make something of themselves, works in developing countries, so why not in this country as well?
Please don't fall back on the bullshit "black people are lazy/promiscuous/etc. etc." framing of the right wing. It's victim-blaming of the worst kind and accomplishes nothing but deepening of negative stereotypes.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)cause and effect? That is exactly where the disconnect is happening. If we do not discuss cause and effect, how can we ever find common ground and find a way that gives equality to everyone?
Personally, I learn more by listening to what people who are different than me tell me that they experience in their lives than I do by telling them how wrong they are. You can't really learn if you don't learn to listen to them. You cannot experience what they experience or know what it is like for them. The best you can do is share your experiences, listen to what they are telling you about their experiences and work together to come up with a solution that provides equal chances for everyone. That is the problem. Everyone doesn't have an equal chance. Everyone isn't treated equally.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Many here are perfectly willing to accept the idea that wealth producing privilege is real, as it make smoother the path to life; but are unwilling to accept that being of the dominant racial/gender group creates a similar smoother path, despite a being able to acknowledge that racism and sexism, create barriers for PoC and women.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And that women and ethnic minorities really have it pretty good and anyone who says otherwise is a disruptor bent on dividing dems. Nevermind that women and Black people are the most solidly democratic voters
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Bonx
(2,066 posts)Bonx
(2,066 posts)Even though you don't seem inclined to.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)But of course someone from a middle-to-upper-class background would have economic/class privileges your parents never did.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--was far less pronounced.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)narcissists to a certain extent, though thankfully many of them outgrow it. Unfortunately, Mr. Fortgang seems relatively unlikely to learn or change much, being so goddamn self-satisfied.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)a refusal to accept that one MIGHT have failed or been far less successful; but for the accident of birth, while ignoring what you already know ... that those lacking your accident of birth REALLY do face head winds that you do not.
I find it interesting that some ("liberals/progressive" so readily accept the "No man is an island" ... until it requires access their personal circumstance, especially when viewed through a race/gender-conscious lense.
Put another way ...
"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) accept that Racism/sexism is real."
"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) accept that Racism/sexism is serves as an impediment to/negatively affects PoC and/or Women's prospects for success."
"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) accept that I am not personally or directly, negatively affected by Racism/sexism."
But ...
"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) refuse to accept that the absence of being negatively affected by Racism/sexism has anything to do with MY prospects for success."
Note: I speak of white, "liberal/progressive" males because white, non-liberal/progressive males have never made the serious representation that they were my/our allies in the struggle of equality; whereas, white, "liberal/progressive" male have/do.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Creating the animosity I discussed in Post 14 is not helpful.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The time has come to accept the fact that politely asking to be treated as an equal has failed.
Anyone who thinks their bruised ego should be the priority over the effort to finally change some things has some growing up to do.
This is just another version of 'yes, oppression is bad and all I'm sure, but say it nicer or I won't listen to you or help you'.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)A bad situation can always be made worse and the "white privilege" argument is a great way to do it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And whom do you think is making the situation worse, those challenging the status quo or those defending it (if only to prevent hurt feelings among allies)?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That people don't see this for themselves speaks VOLUMES.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Like siding with aggrieved white people, in this case.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)I'm not disputing or defending that certain demographics groups face obstacles that other demographic groups do not.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you just don't think it wise for those that face those obstacles to talk about/point out that others don't face those obstacles.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's obvious.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Frame it and Hang it
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)the animosity is already there
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And if Fortgang's piece hadn't been so smug, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But it WAS; that was the problem.
(Although, sadly, a lot of the stuff being put out by some of these hoity-toity holier-than-thou pseudo-progressive types isn't much better in that department, especially in regards to "People of Color can't be racist" and "all white people are privileged" type bullshit.)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)hoity-toity holier-than-thou pseudo-progressive type, all I will say is:
"Yeah. Uh, huh. Please pass the cornbread."
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Isn't the first reply to it you saying "bravo" or did I misread?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024918828
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Do note, by the way, that she does have some issue with the way Fortgang went about things. I do as well.
However, though, with that out of the way, it can be admitted that there is a real & very valid frustration felt by people when it comes to this kind of stuff. Did you read Ms. Fisher's piece, btw?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)See post 20.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)In fact, Malcolm X tried the "rough" approach back in the late '50s, early '60s, by the way. Didn't work for shit.
BTW, I find it all too funny(and not in the "haha!" sense, mind you, but more of the "Hmm....." type), that it wasn't too long Malcolm X rejected his personal racism against white people that he ended up getting his head blown off in Feb. of '65. Why is that, you think? Here's my answer: it's because he began to preach what MLK already had done: peace, love, and unity between the "races". And TPTB didn't like that at all.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Yep. I don't think I have anything more to say to you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Honestly, WTF was that about?
The good Captain Picard sums it up even better:
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Your disingenuousness is so tiring. Bye.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I didn't say or imply anything about "white privilege" in that Malcolm X post, and frankly, I think you know it, too. (either that or you're just delusional, I dunno which.)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)his white washing of Malcolm!!!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Now I'm reminded of this quote.
"If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made. And they haven't even pulled the knife out much less heal the wound. They won't even admit the knife is there."
We can't move forward until people acknowledge that the knife is still there.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Malcolm rejected his BIGOTRY against all white individual, while retaining a strong detest for systemic racism AND WHITE SUPREMACY.
Stop white washing Malcolm!!! He NEVER preached "peace, love and unity between the races", not before his Hajj or afterwards. His message continued to be peace to those peaceful to you, love for those that loved us, and a willingness to accept help from white folks, but make no make, white people could not join or lead within his organization.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)His message continued to be peace to those peaceful to you, love for those that loved us, and a willingness to accept help from white folks, but make no make, white people could not join or lead within his organization.
Okay, and? That doesn't really contradict what I said, TBH.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Unity was a Queen Latifah song. Malcolm was not about U-N-I-T-Y.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and human rights of Black people; people supporting the racial status quo are not peaceful, loving or about unity of/across racial communities.
ETA: And if you can't see where what I said conflicts with what you have said, then you are either being dishonest and are truly ignorant.
And I will not "tone it down a notch" ... Not when you are willfully misrepresenting what the Black cultural icon, Malcolm X stood for. No, I will not watch my tone!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And I doubt you'll find any genuine DUer who is.
No, I will not watch my tone!
That really was only a suggestion, by the way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and mind your tongue has always been a "suggestion."
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Are you seriously suggesting that I am somehow opposed to Civil Rights for all people? Really?
Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #185)
Post removed
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Yes, I hate to be harsh, but honestly, get a clue.
(in that "watch you tone" sort of way).
Ah, so I oughta watch my tone. Got it.....not really surprising, TBH. Intentionally or not, you've let slip the true demeanor you've adopted throughout this thread and others in the recent past towards myself.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Ah, so I oughta watch my tone. Got it.....not really surprising, TBH. Intentionally or not, you've let slip the true demeanor you've adopted throughout this thread and others in the recent past towards myself.
You're funny in all your projection. I've been condescending to anyone and everyone that expressing an position contrary to you're and it is me that let slip the true demeanor. It is you that told me to, oh sorry ... suggesting, that I "tone it down a notch" and it is me that let slip the true demeanor.
You've got to be kidding!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I've been condescending to anyone and everyone that expressing an position contrary to you're
I didn't accuse you of attacking everyone, mind you. But it's rather clear that you have employed this tactic with me, especially with these recent statements of me being supposedly opposed to equal rights for all. Which was nothing more than outright bullshit, and you damn well knew it too(either that or you're completely self-deluded).
and it is me that let slip the true demeanor.
And you certainly did.
You've got to be kidding!
I could say the same fucking thing, especially after that obvious falsehood you spouted about me being supposedly opposed to civil rights. Gimme a fucking break. Gimme a fucking break. If that wasn't a classic troll I dunno what is. But it's clear you're only doing this because you can't stand the fact that someone disagrees with you and is willing to defend his position, and not out of any legitimate grievances.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"I meant YOU'VE been condescending to anyone ..."
Earn a f'ing break ... by explaining how defending white supremacy, as manifested in the systemic racism that IS white privilege.
Ifind it funny that the only thing that is "clear" to you are the words you right and those that agree with you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Earn a f'ing break ... by explaining how defending white supremacy, as manifested in the systemic racism that IS white privilege.
I wasn't defending white supremacy and you know it. You are fucking LYING and you know it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)white privilege?
Can you argue that racism is not about white supremacy?
When you deny white privilege, you support white supremacy.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm sorry, but with all due respect, between me and him, I'm not the one who needs a lesson in humility.....I did like the video, though.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have made that very clear. That's why i posted free your mind. To help you free your mind.
It did not work and 'you're never gonna get it' didn't either.
I am starting to feel bad for you.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I'd beg and plead every minute of every day.
But the beauty of you and people like you (and you are so not unique in this regard. Folks like you have been around FOREVER) is that you are wrong and no matter how many times you are TOLD you are wrong, because you feel that you know more than and are superior to the people telling you that you don't know what you are talking about now, tomorrow or ever, it won't make a bit of difference to your beliefs or your behavior.
So all the rest of us will have to suffer with you trolling every single goddamned thread on race in this forum knowing that there is nothing that can be done about it. Except to ignore you. Which I sincerely hope that everyone will do from this point on. Because not only do you not get it, you take utter joy, pride and delight in not getting it and making sure that everyone here knows how unimportant and insignificant you think "it" is.
Response to Number23 (Reply #218)
Post removed
Number23
(24,544 posts)You are wise beyond measure in your benevolence and we are all better for your example.
If you are so incensed and so put out by that accusation there is definitely something you can do about it. STOP TROLLING EVERY SINGLE FUCKING RACE THREAD. Amazing how that simple act could in one swoop (eventually) remove the taint that you toss on yourself at EVERY single given opportunity when you toss your arrogant ignorance into damn near EVERY GODDAMNED THREAD on race.
Squinch
(50,993 posts)are in your interpretation of your experiences about which he knows squat???
Sometimes DU can be so cruel to the honest, sincere crusaders for ignorant viewpoints. Buddy.
Number23
(24,544 posts)That's the way things have been done for the past 400 years and look how great that's all worked out for everybody?
Squinch
(50,993 posts)the groups he doesn't belong to, is kind of astonishing.
ETA: I am a little jealous that he said this to you: "And if you can't bother to open your eyes then I'm not gonna bother with you anymore."
I am squeezing my eyes shut real tight so maybe he will decide not to bother with me anymore too!
kwassa
(23,340 posts)is you. Over and over, in thread after thread, you attempt impose your very incorrect and unsustainable viewpoint on white privilege on DU.
You presume to know something you don't know, and refuse to listen to anyone else, disregarding the viewpoint of every person of color that has expressed themselves in this thread. You, as a white male, know better than them.
Let me make it crystal clear, not that I really expect you to understand; if you don't believe in white privilege, and don't see it's existence, than you really are not in full support of civil rights, but only conditional support of the part of civil rights you happen to agree with.
And I know you have me on ignore, and I don't care. Everyone else can see what you are doing here.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)That is an atrocious thing to say to someone who simply disagrees with you. You are very condescending in both the sexism threads and the racism threads. You constantly tell people of both groups what we do and do not experience, instead of bothering to listen or learn. Something tells me you do not want to learn, but instead you want to repeatedly talk in a condescending way to women and persons of color. That is truly disgusting.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)Faux news is only going to replace "Whiny white dudes" with younger "whiny black dudes" or "whiny white women".
Faux is a propaganda front for the 1% and they wouldn't get anywhere near as much attention if it weren't for the knee-jerk repuke propaganda responders such as that Salon writer who's only playing to the classic propaganda paradigm of creating some emotional response rather than having a rational discussion.
Whiny Salon writers should try to focus on the actual problem of class war, not some racist BS.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)for me, and every other PoC.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Please stop! Stop! Stop dealing in facts!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)and there will be a reckoning ...
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #10)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Bigotry is "flavor" motivated action; whereas, Racism is "flavor" motivated action plus the institutional power to reinforce that action.
And I can point to numerous places where my mere presence puts me at physical risk ... besides, the last time that I was in Detroit (3 years ago), I saw a bunch of whites walking around that did not have a similar fear as you.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It has been explained a million times and it can be explained a million more and they will cover their ears and close their eyes and insist they don't understand.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(admittedly out of frustration) that with allies like this cohort of "liberals/progressives", who needs conservatives - as they are making the same arguments.
That really hit home with the "Walking while White in Detroit" comment!
As if, a white person feeling unsafe walking down a street in a single city (a city where the intra-racial violence rate is off the charts), somehow equals living in a society where the institutional structures exist/act to oppress and frustrate you because of your race or gender.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Even though some are choosing to ignore it, others might be actually interested in learning.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Yes, People of Color can commit personal racism, too. This is hardly controversial or newsworthy, or whatever(just look at Kamau Kambon, or Louis Farrakhan.....or the average antisemitic Hamas member) That's all you need to know right there).
Of course, you're entitled to hold your opinion as much as I am.....as wrong as it may be.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)to ethnic minorities and women.
Literally.
"Personal racism" indeed!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)"Personal racism" indeed!
I'm not sure what I can say to something like this.....
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is endlessly entertaining, I assure you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)In all truthfulness, I don't need to be 'splained to, amiga. I've done my research. And frankly, I think 90% of the problem you have with me comes from the fact that I just happened to disagree with you(maybe a tad strongly) with some of your pet views. It certainly explains the vitriol, and certain other things(remember when you falsely accused me of equating "white privilege" with hatred? ).....
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Your sudden 180 on feminist threads did not go unniticed. You may think you're convincing, but TBH, you're the opposite.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)You are, however, quite wrong. There was no "sudden 180" either, by the way, so I dunno where you got that from(and I know you don't have any real proof, either).
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)a bit of concern of guilt by association maybe?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)There's been a couple like that now. Sure does make you go 'hmmmmmm'
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)one day a big nasty flameout will happen because they seem pretty unstable. I am guessing each of them are really 2-3 posters because they plagerize each others posts so often. LOL.
Squinch
(50,993 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and think that is something we should actually thank them for.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But yes, I do think you're wrong(P.S. you're one to talk about stalking, btw: you've done the very same thing you're now accusing me of! Hypocrisy much?)....EOM.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)you can try and soft pedal it all you want, but that is in essence wat you are doing and saying here.
GO THE FUCK AWAY JOE, NOT WASTING TIME ON YOU ANYMORE.
Your attention is hostile and unwelcomed. Got it?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And frankly, I'm tired of *you* stalking *me*.....and your hypocrisy & problems with honesty in general.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Thu May 8, 2014, 07:03 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Honestly, this is pure baloney. PURE baloney. EOM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4927465
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
this poster is basically calling me a liar without refuting anything I said, a purely personal attack and DU violation- and has actually been stalking me, saying the same thing after all of my posts.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 8, 2014, 07:13 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Disagreeing is not the same thing as a personal attack. Even in the context of the increasingly heated argument this thread has become, this is not a rules violation.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: He is pointing out that he believes what you posted is not true - that is not calling you a liar. As far as stalking, if you post - expect replies, even those you don't like. If you can't stand the heat ... well, you know.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Worst.
Alert.
Ever.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Cry a river...ffs, upset someone takes umbrage with your sexist uncalled for bs? Tough...
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)there is no such animal as "Personal Racism" ... At least, not as can be applied to PoC.
Racism is a system of oppression based on race and supported by Person BIGOTRY."
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Last edited Thu May 8, 2014, 10:38 PM - Edit history (1)
writes an article about "whiny white dudes"? That truly shows how racist Katie McDonough, the white author, is!
Response to DonViejo (Reply #12)
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Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)pscot
(21,024 posts)Blue Owl
(50,489 posts)n/t
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)it is a shame since we are both from the bay area.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)The OP posted an article from Salon about privilege, do you agree with the likes of Tal and Tucker?
Coventina
(27,169 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Didn't I just see the news that the poorest in this country are in the greatest poverty since the 60s? The 1% are more wealthy than at any time since the tycoon era in the pre-antitrust days.
It's all well and good that Salon can publish some meaningless words. Yay team! Rah rah and all that. Meanwhile the wealthy quietly accumulate more of the nation's wealth and laugh in their gilded palaces.
The men without compassion, the Sheldon Adelsons, the Jamie Dimons, the Kochs, they're multibillionaires who sip $10,000 a bottle wine while they have a good laugh at people like Katie McDonough. These terrible jerks own everything! Including our politicians. Tal Fortgang feels entitled because he is, and probably will make millions himself in a cushy job somewhere.
If this is winning I can't imagine what losing looks like.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Now, to be fair to her, I think Katie McDonough had good intentions in mind with this piece. But we do need to be careful; we can't let ethnic issues be the wedge between us like they were back in the Eighties when Reagan was Prez. Can't let that happen.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)People of Color (and women) have interests beyond those of white males. While our interests intersect at the income inequity issue, they diverge after that (or maybe before that?)?
As I have said before: our helping you accomplish your ends, still leaves us wanting. And history gives us plenty of reason to believe that once we help you accomplish your ends, you will jettison us ... as the status quo, with respect to race/gender/sexual orientation relationships, hasn't changed ... we just have a different white guy to deal with.
And your continued refusal to acknowledge, if not act on, this is what creates the schism and allows others, that have neither of our interests at heart, to exploit said schism.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Although I do have reason to believe that TPTB and their useful idiots are eagerly exploiting that wedge when and where they can. Just look at how many on the right have equated idiots & fools like Noel Ignatiev or the some of the various nutty Tumblr bloggers out there with ALL liberals, for example. They may be bullshitting, but they are using actual fringe examples to try to trick people into believing their lines of B.S.; just like the far-right used the very real actions of Al-Qaeda and Hamas as reasons to stoke prejudice against Muslims in general(when in fact, most of the world's Muslims are decent people overall) a decade ago.
People of Color (and women) have interests beyond those of white males.
Never really argued otherwise, by the way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you time and again seek to deny/minimize the voice of those on the one side of the schism, in favor of the status quo. And refer to those drawing attention to that status quo, fringe "radicals."
So ask yourself, "Who would be the useful idiot" of TPTB ... those challenging the status quo, or those defending it?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)it certainly isn't myself. That's for damn sure.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Did you ever get that cornbread?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Sorry folks ... that was another "inside joke", that I will let you all in on ...
In my family, we have a cousin that shows up to all the family holiday gathering. He is nice enough; but very passionate about some very off-the-wall ideas.
One gathering, the cousin started doing his thing at the dinner table, and someone responded to him, "Uh huh. That's nice. Please pass the greens."
It has become the family method of acknowledging that someone said something (crazy as hell) without feeding into it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When i saw it i wondered if you knew my uncle Carlos.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and if all of the conversations around you, have nothing to do with what you are talking about ... well ... you be that family member.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I'm a white male who frankly is embarrassed by your posts. Acting like you know more about racism than people who actually experience it is the height of arrogance.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But I never claimed to know everything, nor did I imply otherwise. But neither do certain others, and frankly, in the same vein, I'd argue that being a Person of Color does not automatically necessarily make one a seasoned expert on racism, either.
In all honesty, it's about individuals more than anything. For example, I can honestly say that folks like the SPLC, Tim Wise, and the late and great MLK, Jr., as individuals, for example, may very well have(or had, in the case of MLK) a deeper understanding than many of us, myself included. And I don't have a problem with admitting that. Not at all.
What bothers me, if anything, is that certain people have insinuated that I don't really know anything simply because my stated views happen to conflict with theirs, and not for any actual valid reason. Perhaps you may not have noticed, but I certainly have. And that's not cool.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And maybe being open to the perspectives of people who have more direct experience with the subject (e.g. racism) than someone like you or me (in this case being white guys) would?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Also:
And maybe being open to the perspectives of people who have more direct experience with the subject (e.g. racism) than someone like you or me (in this case being white guys) would?
Not everyone is going to have the same experience: there are some PoC who are fortunate enough that they have not yet had to deal with even structural racism, let alone personal bigotries, and there are indeed a few white folks who actually *have* experienced personal racism.
I myself have been fortunate not to have experienced racism in my daily life; indeed, most of the PoC I have met face to face have been good, honest and decent folks. I have, unfortunately, dealt with racists and other bigots on the Internet. So it does still happen.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)the wrong way. A little humility counts for a lot in these discussions.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And I'll admit I'm not entirely perfect in that regard, if that helps any.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)about when it comes to their experience of racism - unless they're Thomas Sowell or Allen West, but you know what I mean.
Having had a majority-nonwhite group of friends basically my whole life probably has something to do with my perspective. If nothing else, it's shown me that my own life experience as a middle-class white kid is far from universal. What's funny is, in all my years of friendship with various folks, never once have I been told to "check my privilege" or any equivalent thereof, probably because I never gave anyone a reason to do so.
I realize you're well-intentioned, and maybe I was a little harsh upthread. But like I said, a little humility can go a long way, especially when you're a white guy talking about race.
Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #234)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Really? Please stop with this ... Please!
Or better ... Maybe you would like to explain how a PoC, living in America, could possibly NOT experience structural racism?
And please stop with that Black exhibiting "personal racism" crap.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)No matter how you may feel about me personally, it's not crap. It DOES happen.
Or better ... Maybe you would like to explain how a PoC, living in America, could possibly NOT experience structural racism?
I won't deny that the *RISK* at least, is always going to be there. (that's actually a point I'd wanted to make). But the honest truth is, not everybody is going to be directly affected by it. Which doesn't really make it any less awful, though.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Still waiting for you to explain how a PoC, can live in America, and not be affected by structural racism.
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #238)
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1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)your argument is; but lack the integrity to admit that this foundational point proves you know far less about racism than you claim.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)maybe you should google: Tim Wise + White Privilege ... maybe you will give more credence to what PoC have been saying as "valid", if it comes from a white man.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)the experiences of many members of the AA group. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4924842
You say you don't want to invalidate the experiences of people who were "genuinely bullied" (no one was even talking about bullying; the subject was racism). So you don't invalidate those you consider genuine, just the rest you don't consider to have genuine cases by insisting but in the very same paragraph that racism "it's not actually the widespread problem that some believe it is." Here you assert it is you who hold the "facts" to understanding racism that trump the experiences of people of color you determine have not been "genuinely" targeted. (You use the word "bullied," as though it were synonymous with racism. It is not. )
Your insist your views are "facts" while the experiences of people of color are not because they differ from your very limited understanding of racism. It is not simply that you don't understand it. You purposefully make an effort to actively invalidate the views and experiences of members of color at every opportunity. They are wrong, you insist. Racism really isn't much of a problem, while you insist misogyny is rare on the left, yet provide not one iota of evidence.
Not only that, you falsely malign feminists:
Yet you refuse to provide a SINGLE link when prompted. Obviously that is not what most of the complaining is about. You and others complained that I even posted the thread I wanted to connecting the VP with the maligning of feminists as extremists, just as virtually every post in GD on feminist issues results in the same crowd entering to tell people they should not be posting what they want, since only they get to determine what is allowed to be discussed on this public message board.
You deny your own words while falsely attributing statements to others, like me, that I no where made, like when you insisted I "admitted to trolling" or claimed all people of color thought exactly like me. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4923693 http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4924847
Both of those were complete and utter fabrications.
If you truly were discussing issues in good faith, why would you post some fifteen times in a thread and then hours into a discussion alert on an OP as flamebait? It appeared to me that you felt that I had bested you and wanted to shut down the discussion. But even after a jury returned a verdict 0-7 showing they did not view the thread as flamebait and 39 other DUers recommended it, you continued to accuse me of trolling. The views of those 46 people were irrelevant. You insisted you knew it was flamebait and thus felt justified in insulting me as a troll.
As the cases above demonstrate, your repeatedly insist you know what racism, sexism, and misogyny are, while the views of those of us who actually experience it don't accord with your own "fact-based" views. Do you not see the implication of insisting you as a white man know what the "facts" are regarding racism that is at variance with the lived experience of those who are actually subject to racism?
1strongblackman's point about division already being present is an enormously important one. You say you don't want people to create "division." That division already exists. What you don't want is to hear about the views of those on the other side of that divide. You want to pretend that division doesn't exist, while seizing every opportunity to invalidate their life experiences, which only serves to deepen the divide.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
You say you don't want to invalidate the experiences of people who were "genuinely bullied" (no one was even talking about bullying; the subject was racism). So you don't invalidate those you consider genuine, just the rest you don't consider to have genuine cases by insisting but in the very same paragraph that racism "it's not actually the widespread problem that some believe it is."
Oh please.
Here you assert it is you who hold the "facts" to understanding racism that trump the experiences of people of color you determine have not been "genuinely" targeted. (You use the word "bullied," as though it were synonymous with racism. It is not. )
By the way, I never actually implied that ALL bullying was TOTALLY synonymous with racism. So that's one example of you taking my statements out of context.
You and others complained that I even posted the thread I wanted to connecting the VP with the maligning of feminists as extremists, just as virtually every post in GD on feminist issues results in the same crowd entering to tell people they should not be posting what they want, since only they get to determine what is allowed to be discussed on this public message board.
And that disagreement was legitimate, based on some of the wording you used. And by the way, I was never saying that you shouldn't have posted at all, either. Nor did I imply such.
If you truly were discussing issues in good faith, why would you post some fifteen times in a thread and then hours into a discussion alert on an OP as flamebait? It appeared to me that you felt that I had bested you and wanted to shut down the discussion. But even after a jury returned a verdict 0-7 showing they did not view the thread as flamebait and 39 other DUers recommended it, you continued to accuse me of trolling. The views of those 46 people were irrelevant. You insisted you knew it was flamebait and thus felt justified in insulting me as a troll.
Well, unfortunately, it appears that some of your conduct before and since has been giving more reason to suspect that these concerns were justified.
Do you not see the implication of insisting you as a white man know what the "facts" are regarding racism that is at variance with the lived experience of those who are actually subject to racism?
And as I've told others, it's about individuals more than anything else. I don't claim to be some sort of omniscient in this regard and I've admitted that I may not be as knowledgeable as some others, such as the SPLC or the late and great MLK, Jr.; and yes, I do mean what I say.
But I also pointed out that, in that same vein, being a Person of Color does not automatically make one an expert, either. And I stand by that as well.
You want to pretend that division doesn't exist, while seizing every opportunity to invalidate their life experiences, which only serves to deepen the divide.
And I've tried to point out time and time again that that's not true. Disagreeing with someone's viewpoint doesn't invalidate their experiences.....I honestly don't know how else I can explain this to you, because it's obvious that you have a hard time understanding that.
And to be fair, I'll admit that in the heat of the moment it seems I misread a few things and jumped the gun. It happens. But I still stand by the points I've made, including that being a PoC doesn't necessarily automatically make one an expert on racism.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)it's the height of PRIVILEGE.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Response to DonViejo (Original post)
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uppityperson
(115,678 posts)what are you going on about? Or, to be more polite, clarify what you mean please.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #37)
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uppityperson
(115,678 posts)Beyond what they already have?
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)White Male IndieTeaPublicans HATE MY GUTS.
They hate women.
They hate black women.
They resent this black women for obtaining financial success because I tripped them on my way up the ladder. Many of these guys started off in the exact same place I did but they assumed they would always get promoted ahead of me.
Now they are pissed because I won the game.
I vote Democratic. It's been my home since 1992 and solidified in 1996 when Bill Clinton told young black women - I'm not forgetting you.
We came out in droves in 2008 and 2012.
So the Democratic Party can either have a bunch of whiny losers who don't even want to try because they EXPECT to be handed things - or it can have people that want to work, contribute and work together as a COUNTRY to return us to prosperity.
You can't have us both.
Choose - or I'll vote strictly by my financial interests and bring as many black women as I can along for the ride.
Choose which one of us you want.
Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #53)
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cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Response to cyberswede (Reply #61)
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uppityperson
(115,678 posts)signing up, getting banned, signing up, getting banned when it is obvious you will be banned again? At least you were somewhat civil this time.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)to describe "extremist" DUers, along with Radfems.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #69)
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uppityperson
(115,678 posts)"you need white males more than they need you"? Why or in what way?
"Who made you the final authority on what is or isn't the best interest of white males anyway?" The rest of us are talking about society, not simply your privileged class.
Finally, in what sort of way would you possibly be an "ally"?
And the final finally, poor baby, so put upon.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #79)
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uppityperson
(115,678 posts)there is no male privilege, white males "created this society" and pay my "welfare money"? Oh my.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Cognitive dissonance doesn't even BEGIN to describe this one
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)I think he may have missed who made up his nickname in mirt, "never been banned".
arcane1
(38,613 posts)So that, you know, us white folk could give them welfare and chicken-yards in exchange for voluntary work. Or something.
Ignorance is one hell if a drug!
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)poor WSDR
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Response to uppityperson (Reply #87)
redqueen This message was self-deleted by its author.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)But thanks for displaying your true colors.
If you're a democrat, I'll eat my white-privileged hat.
I almost wish your post would stay after you're banned, because it's such a perfect demonstration of your complete misunderstanding of racism/privilege.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Not sure we need one. Probably just a matter of time.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)sometimes it can help though, figured I'd ask.
Response to cyberswede (Reply #91)
cyberswede This message was self-deleted by its author.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)Skittles
(153,182 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)society. Interesting that you'd imagine it is all about your needs, and eeryone else is stuck in the margins. Nope.
Response to bettyellen (Reply #75)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)me of something else.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,749 posts)It's warm here.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)uppityperson
(115,678 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)They were NEVER my ally in the first place - and like you - are most likely a little troll from Free Republic.
I don't believe you are anything close to being a Democratic Party member - you are lying as is the person I responded to.
Enjoy your pizza.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)If men choose to vote against their own best interest, both economically and socially, it's hardly the fault of other people.
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)fwiw, not me. Ah well.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)but it was so much fun while it lasted!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)a very narrow sphere of their experience".
I have seen that so many times. Amazing how many people have ignorantly lectured me feminism is useless and had no idea marital rape was legal a generation ago, that there were no workplace protections for harrassment, and that women had little choice in their reproductive options in our society. You'd think they'd have some basic backround in the topic before making these declarations, but it's usually not the case.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)I'm seeing a couple of people apparently under the assumption that Fortgang made a reasonable commentary on the idea of white privilege. I hope that reading the essay would dispel that illusion for most people here.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and Time magazine should be ashamed.
Blue Owl
(50,489 posts)n/t
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Frankly, my biggest issue was how much of a smug and condescending arse that he came off as when writing this whole thing. That isn't to say there weren't a few small nuggets of truth hidden in there, but I honestly found Julia Fisher's piece to be far more enlightening:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117665/princeton-essay-check-your-privilege-raises-legitimate-gripes
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)There are lots of Fortgangs in the world.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)He doesn't believe that institutionalized racism should be taken seriously?
Does he have any idea what his people went through even here in America? That Jews were denied jobs and academic positions?
That guy is a complete moron.
undeterred
(34,658 posts)Nice ring to it.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...crowing about their 'destruction' is something worth doing. Maybe its the part of me that tries to be, you know, human.
Meh. This trash isn't even worth commenting on. Good bait, Ms. McDonough. You got one.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)institutional racism actually exists. Their destruction as an influence in our society is obviously a good thing- wouldn't you agree?
Shandris
(3,447 posts)What I don't agree on is the presentation of the topic more often than not, and I've made that abundantly clear.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that their influence is (finally!!) waning in the media.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...squick button. I don't like dismissive talk, and while I'm sure we all, including myself, use it from time to time even if on accident, I do try to watch out for it. It feels so...needlessly confrontational.
But I'll be glad to see their nonstop influence gone. I mean...Tucker Carlson? How can anyone ever consider him -relevant-, let alone worth listening to?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)a road @ Fox where hatred of accomplished women is going to be a normal, everyday thing. Tucker and friends are unfortunately going to get a lot of milage out of it. I WISH we could say bye bye now, not looking forward to that crap flooding the media.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...I'm so very glad (overall) that I cut the cable to my tv. Not having to even consider listening to so many of these people has made life a lot less stressful. It's made it easier to focus on getting things done, too, action-wise. But maybe that's just because my brain wanders a lot (can ya tell?!).
Yah, the last time I really remember watching him any was during Bill's years, so this would be like a Redux for him. I'll bet John's highlight reels will be especially good, though. If its any consolation!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It's so cute how many of these posts are entitled people displaying their entitlement.
Entitlement to have messages tailor made to suit their comfort level.
Entitlement to have the authority to dictate to women and ethnic minorities what sexism and racism are really all about.
etc. etc. ad nauseam.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Pick my part of the subthread for a reason? I'm sure it was -entirely- unintended.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Response to redqueen (Reply #164)
Name removed Message auto-removed
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)Nobody. Not even the most politically correct, left-wing Marxist professors.
Check Your Privilege is a simple acknowledgement that white privilege exists and shapes a lot of outcomes in our society.
This boy (he still thinks like a boy, so that's what I'm calling him) does not seem capable of grasping that.
Jasana
(490 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)expect it on the right.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)should have been "Than" ... but you got my point.
And for clarity, I probably should have inserted "...Some of the loudest proclaimers of being ..." before the liberal/progressive part.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Is that many of the "offended" types do not realize that the same structures that say "white people should be trusted more than x" are propped up by people who also say "any white person that is not as wealthy as me is just poor white trash." In the global economy, the same people that are defended are the same people that will export jobs to China, make the water toxic, and then, when you complain to them, will say "You are white, go get a job!"
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)sorry to make you uncomfortable ... maybe tomorrow we can go back to the way it was.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)because we're lazy.
Got it.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)I guess it could be, if there are a lot of them.
However, I don't see anyone in this thread saying they hate (even some) white men.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But I thought criticism doesn't equal hate! That's what I keep seeing in the endless "I don't hate President Obama, I'm just criticism his activities" posts.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Tucker Carlson is not your enemy. He is merely weak and corrupt enough to be a willing tool of the even whiter and vastly more whiny dudes who, directly or indirectly, sign his checks.
It's okay to hate him, but don't let that distract you.
SaltyBro
(198 posts)What is the point of all this?
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Criticizing ignorant views isn't equal to hate, you know.
SaltyBro
(198 posts)Maybe we should take away everything they have, make them start from scratch.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)I don't think you understand what white privilege is. It's really just existing with the "privilege" of not being discriminated against for the color of your skin.
It can't be taken away, and I don't understand what you mean by "start from scratch."
SaltyBro
(198 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Have a nice night.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Which category I believe would be more properly described as "racist idiots" rather than white males. It's just that most of them happen to be white, and the most outspoken are generally male.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)In fact, there seem to be more than ever.