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[lostincalifornia]

This message was self-deleted by its author (lostincalifornia) on Sun Aug 3, 2014, 08:45 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[PeteSelman]

1. You don't have to like it but he's right.

Their crazies are way more crazy than our Christians.

[joshcryer]

2. There are just more of the crazy, not that they are inherently crazier.

There are unquestionably some right wing Christians who espouse extreme views and even act on them in some of the worst parts of the world.

[leftynyc]

64. You're ignoring a HUGE difference

As Bill pointed out on his show, Brunei has now installed Sharia law and we all know what that means for women (putting aside the notion that cutting off limbs is a common punishment for stealing), 80% of Egyptians think DEATH is the proper punishment for leaving the religion - these are huge numbers that have no counterpart in the Christian world. That's simply the truth.

[joshcryer]

70. Oh, no doubt, islam elements are getting worse, not better.

It may have to go through such a stage, but it has gone through those stages in the past, so there may be an argument to it having some innateness. However, I believe most if not all of the hate stems from the teachings, the Hadiths, which is where they make up law as they wish. Imagine if we had the most fundamentalist Christians in the US, those who espouse no voting rights for women, segregation, no equality in marriage, no choice, things like that. Imagine if they were in true power. Would the US look much different? Fortunately we do have a system that prevents any one group from achieving vast power and if they do it's not for long.

These countries need democracy more than anything. This is why the coup in Egypt was so bad.

You can see western variants of Islam (at least in the US) that teaches a very thoughtful and kind religion, but I admit such pressure doesn't exist in the Islamic world at large. We have fully developed countries in the Islamic world that are making women be under dress and not allowed to even drive.

[eridani]

72. It takes religious traditions hundreds of years to mellow out

Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity.

[BootinUp]

84. Well, I guess we can wait it out then!

[JackRiddler]

101. Completely ahistorical.

During the European so-called middle ages, there were cultures within the Islamic sphere that were far more tolerant, cosmopolitan and technologically/scientifically advanced than those of Christendom.

[Quantess]

137. I think it was a tongue-in-cheek type of wisecrack.

It has to be.

[JackRiddler]

140. Actually, it's cliche but standard.

I've heard this one a lot - as if "religion" per se were some biological entity that has a given life cycle divorced from the culture and history within which it takes place. It's a huge misconception / category error.

[Quantess]

150. Right, but it's supposed to be humor.

People sometimes make comments like that to lighten up the mood a little. I actually thought it was a cute comment.
Personally, I think religion is given far too much credibility and weight, and I appreciate it when people crack jokes about religions, however canned the comments might be. Religions are mostly absurd, at best.

[BlueStreak]

78. The media covers more of the Islamic crazies

Then a Christian murders a baby here, it is covered as "an evil monster killed a baby" and there is no mention that he was a Christian. If a Muslim does something horrible, Islam is in the headline.

And Maher hardly gives the other religions a free pass. All the major religions attract very sick people and give them the means to rationalize evil behavior.

[leftynyc]

177. There is a difference between

murdering someone and murdering in the name of one's religion. It could very well be incidental that the murderer of a child happens to be a Christian but many of the murders Maher is discussing are being done in the name of Islam. That's a huge difference.

[BlueStreak]

205. Sometimes yes, sometimes no

All religions provide a sense of a moral code. And that code can very easily become warped badly when you have a cocoon of true believers reinforcing one another. Something that would be considered shocking behavior can become rationalized to the point of normalcy when a person a deeply immersed in a religious cult. We see Christians murdering their spouses all the time, for example. Just because they don't scream "In the name if Jesus Christ my lord and savior, I slayeth thee", that doesn't mean that the cult distortions don't play a role.

And conversely, how often does the Western press actually dig into the background of those doing the things we describe as "Islamic acts of terror"? In many cases, the people may not be motivated by their religion in any significant way, but are simply pissed that one of their cousins was blown up by a drone strike.

[leftynyc]

207. I see your point

but I was talking about something different. Look at Syria (or Egypt or Iraq). These are Muslims killing Muslims - most often in sectarian violence (Sunni vs Shia or more secular vs more religious). Look at what's happening to these girls in Nigeria. Nothing about different moral codes - just about being different with the most horrific violence coming from those who claim to be the most religious. I understand the urge to defend the "underdog" and that most people are looking through the lens of US actions but that's not really what I'm talking about. Violence in the name of Islam is (in many places) is just that - violence for religious reasons. Do we hear about the Christian vs Muslim or Buddhist vs Muslim - yes, of course. But the reality is that most Muslims are getting killed by other Muslims.

[BlueStreak]

209. What mosque endorses the Nigerian kidnappers?

They may use the language of Islam, but Islam doesn't endorse them any more than the Presbyterians take responsibility for Timothy McVeigh.

The reporting is very one-sided on this.

[leftynyc]

210. Sigh

I'm not talking about the reporting or what the US thinks of it or what you or I think of it. And if this was an isolated case, you would have stronger ground to stand on. But we both know it's not an isolated case - the treatment of girls and women in countries that adhere to Sharia law is barbaric. Can you deny that it seems the only choices seem to be a brutal dictatorship or a country run by religious lunatics?

We can bitch about the religious right in this country until we're blue in the face - and I certainly have done my fair share of it but that doesn't change the fact that I woke up this morning in my own apartment, put on whatever I wanted to wear, put on some makeup and traveled to the city without a male escort and never had to worry about some religious freak throwing acid in my face and not being punished for it. I don't have to worry that some council somewhere is going to sentence me to be raped by the all the men in the village because I held hands with my boyfriend (we wont even discuss what would happen if I were caught in a same sex relationship).

I can't - as a woman and a human being - stand back and be silent just because my country isn't perfect.

[BlueStreak]

211. Yes, I agree there are barbaric countries -- lots of them.

And it is terrible. We have no disagreement on that.

But I just disagree with the cause-and-effect certainty of Islam = barbarism.

Ignorance = barbarism, and ignorance enables religions. There has been plenty of barbarism carried out under a Christian banner in Africa. I think we may have cause and effect reversed here.

I know plenty of Muslims and they are all very peaceful people. I bet on my street there are more Muslims and Hindus than there are Christians.

[leftynyc]

212. I have no doubt about that

I too have many Muslim acquaintances from living in New York and they're lovely, peaceful, tolerant and lots of fun. But I'm not talking about the US. And you're absolutely right about ignorance being the major problem here - that's why it's so maddening that it's girls trying to get an education in many of these countries that seem to enrage the religious freaks and lead to kidnappings, forced marriages, acid attacks, etc. I'm sorry, but religion is the cause, not the effect. I'm sure those 200+ girls who were forced to convert to Islam agree with me.

[NCTraveler]

184. Huge difference. Not related in any way. nt.

[phleshdef]

3. Its not the religion, its the culture. Christian-leaning countries had similar culture at one time.

[merrily]

79. Yes and no.

Some aspects are cultural, but some are not shared by Arab Christians or Arab Jews.

[JackRiddler]

143. Christian-leaning countries kill more people right now.

No contest whatsoever.l

[NCTraveler]

185. Don't think so. Any back-up on that. nt.

[JackRiddler]

193. Are you this much in denial?

The extraordinary claim would be that any other country matches the murder-power and actual murder of the U.S. government outside its own borders.

[NCTraveler]

200. That completely changed your original statement.

It was very necessary for you to do in order to make it factual. I am much more inclined to believe your second statement. I believe your first one is false.

[Niceguy1]

4. and we dont

Have a many crazies as they do.....

[lostincalifornia]

12. Actually your point is rings very true. Iraq was invaded because the "Christian" democracies had

Every right to do it.

Just like that asshole Dinish arguing for colonialism, which is another way of justifying genocide, and saw nothing wrong with giving small pox infected blankets to Native Americans because "the Christian" faith was against those "savages" who were not "Christian"

[Nye Bevan]

5. Yep. Christian fundamentalists shoot doctors who perform abortions.

Islamic fundamentalists commit acts of mass murder. While both are horrible, the scale is very different.

[lostincalifornia]

8. Six million Jews dead in Germany? How about the killing fields. They are different? Not that

Much.

A lot of Jew were killed in Russia just because they were Jews

[Nye Bevan]

10. The Nazis were not Christian fundamentalists (nt)

[lostincalifornia]

13. No, they were Christian, and the Jews weren't

[Nye Bevan]

19. Not so much.

Nazi intentions were confirmed on January 3, 1942 when The New York Times published a 30-point program detailing the key doctrines of the new National Reich Church. Below is listed the most blasphemous details of the new religion that Hitler planned to replace Christianity with:

1. The National Reich Church specifically demands the immediate turning over to its possession of all churches and chapels, to become national churches.

5. The National Reich Church is immutably fixed in its one objective: to destroy that Christian belief imported into Germany in the unfortunate year 800, whose tenets conflict with both the heart and mentality of the German.

13. The National Reich Church demands the immediate cessation of the printing of the Bible, as well as its dissemination, throughout the Reich and colonies. All Sunday papers with any religious content shall also be suppressed.

14. The National Reich Church shall see that the importation of the Bible and other religious works into Reich territory is made impossible.

15. The National Reich Church decrees that the most important document of all time-therefore the guiding document of the German people-is the book of our Fuhrer, “Mein Kampf.” It recognizes that this book contains the principles of the purist ethnic morals under which the German people must live.

16. The National Reich Church will see to it that this book spread its active forces among the entire population and that all Germans live by it.

18. The National Reich Church will remove from the altars of all churches the Bible, the cross and religious objects.

19. In their places will be set that which must be venerated by the German people and therefore is by God, our most saintly book, “Mein Kampf,” and to the left of this a sword.

21. In the National Reich Church there will be no remission of sins; its tenet is that, once committed, a sin is irrevocable and will be implacably punished by the laws of nature and in this world.

30. On the day of the foundation of the National Reich Church the Christian cross shall be removed from all churches, cathedrals, and chapels inside the frontiers of the Reich and its colonies and will be replaced by the symbol of invincible Germany-the swastika.[3]

The way that Hitler could pursue the annihilation of Christianity along with the Jews was through his war. Gereon Goldmann, a former Waffen SS solider, revealed the hidden, yet key objectives of Hitler’s war:

“One day a big shot from Berlin came to speak to us. We were stunned by what he said, but we weren’t allowed to tell anyone-it was strictly confidential. This man told us that ‘Victory could only be complete when all the churches were destroyed. Not only the Jewish religion, but also all Christian faiths would have to be eliminated’”.[4]

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2010/06/threat-hitler-posed-to-christianity.html

Also see

http://books.google.com/books?id=6QngAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=%22national+reich+church%22&source=bl&ots=aXq1BubKrA&sig=3rJfFBu4YYQvcd_401ca1IO2eZY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fhG9UteHC-nJsQS5koC4DQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAzgK

[oneofthe99]

27. Well there goes that theory for the OP

[Cartoonist]

29. After the fact

The Nazis would never have prospered as they did without the support of the religious right as it was then in Germany. The Church was as opposed to Godless Communism as Adolph, though for different reasons.

[msongs]

33. the overwhelmingly christian german population heartily supported the nazis with very

few exceptions

[DireStrike]

89. ONE Nazi made a PROPOSAL to ban the bible and create a new nazi religion.

This shows that some nazis were not christians, and were hostile to christianity. That's it.

[former9thward]

113. The "ONE Nazi" who was hostile to Christianity was Adolph Hitler.

Nice try to rewrite history but it is an inconvenient truth.

[DireStrike]

115. I was replying to the article posted, but you are the one attempting to rewrite history.

Hitler's beliefs may have been a twisted version of christianity (though it is clearly based on christianity, and he was NOT hostile to it)... but there are thousands of christian sects, all claiming that all the others are false. That's what happens when you try to take ultimate truth out of an ancient book.

Which part of these speeches sounds hostile to christianity?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

[former9thward]

116. No serious historian considers Hitler any variation of a Christian.

Your weird obscure website aside ...

Hitler had been brought up a Catholic and was impressed by the organization and power of the Church. For Protestant clergy he felt only contempt: 'They are insignificant little people, submissive as dogs...[-] They have neither a religion you can take seriously nor a great position to defend like Rome'. It was the 'great position' of the Church that he respected; towards its teaching he showed only the sharpest hostility. In Hitler's eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.
— Excerpt from Hitler a Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock

[Luminous Animal]

68. But they used historical Christian hatred of Jews to both whip up and cow the citizenry.

[JackRiddler]

141. So?

They were Christians. In any case, from a traditionally Christian culture, and presenting themselves generally as the defenders of Christian virtues.

If we're not going to bother differentiating among Muslims, why do Christians get bonus treatment?

[Vietnameravet]

105. 99% of Christians abhore that

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Christian extremists have also committed mass murder and terrorism...

Most major religions have that in common. The IRA were mass murderers and terrorists, and when it comes to Hindus, there's been massacres of Muslims in India before...

[Nye Bevan]

11. The IRA was not about religion. It was about kicking the British out (nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

17. It was about religion *and* getting the British out n/t

[Nye Bevan]

20. Both sides were Christians (nt)

[Violet_Crumble]

21. So? They're still religious extremists who committed mass murder n/t

[Cartoonist]

30. Catholic and Protestant

Of no difference to me, but important to the locals. Kinda like the Sunnis and the Shiites.

[Nye Bevan]

35. It was the Irish separatists versus the British royalists.

The particular branches of Christianity that each side happened to subscribe to was not a relevant consideration.

[Cartoonist]

49. It definitely was

Still is. That is why peace is hard to get and unification impossible. I too would disagree with certain laws that are Catholic based, like abortion rights.

[lostincalifornia]

42. Actually there are those who do not regard Catholics as Christian, but regard their own form of

Christianity as the true christdom. History is loaded with those religious wars in Europe, and they had nothing to do with Islam

[LeftishBrit]

92. Didn't stop them being terrorists

Often the worst violence is between different sects of the same religion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

203. Atheism doesn't stop people from being terrorists, either. nt

[LeftishBrit]

204. No one said it did.

Terrorism can occur with regard to many ideologies - religious; nationalist; even such unlikely issues as animal rights.

[bettyellen]

97. not really, it was about control of both their ancestral homeland, and their own property...

which the Brits were forcing them to disperse into ever smaller parcels till they had no property to pass to their kids. The religous angle was a wedge they used to make the Catholics seem less civilized than themselves, and justify the thefts.

[LeftishBrit]

90. It was both

I doubt that either the IRA or their Protestant 'paramilitary' counterparts were very interested in exact doctrines; but they certainly identified strongly with their sects.

[lostincalifornia]

41. Absolutely

[Vietnameravet]

106. Difference is that most agree that was wrong

Not so with Muslims..Killing of those that criticize Islam is okay with them..

[PeteSelman]

25. How many times has that actually happened?

Twice? Three times? It's not a basic tenet of the Christian religion. No comparison really.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Murder isn't a basic tenet of any major religion...

The religious extremists interpret their religion in their own hateful ways, and Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, and Buddhism all have their own extremists who aren't allergic to murdering people in the name of their own religion...

[PeteSelman]

31. Perhaps, but it's much more prevalent in one religion.

Much more. These are people that murder others over cartoons and movies. That trample each other by the hundreds just to be the first to throw a shoe at a rock. I don't see anyone else doing shit like that.

It is what it is.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. There's no perhaps about it. Mass murder isn't a central tenet of any religion...

You don't see people of any other religion murdering people over religion? Seriously?

[PeteSelman]

38. No. Do they just not report it?

When was the last time a Buddist strapped on a bomb and blew up a bus?

Or a Rastafarian drove a car bomb into a cafe?

[Violet_Crumble]

39. They report it. You just must not notice when things like that get reported...

Here's just one...

HONG KONG — The United Nations report this week that rampaging mobs in western Myanmar killed at least four dozen people, mostly Muslims, did more than contradict the government’s official stance. It also put a spotlight on the country’s continuing religious and ethnic strife — and what some say is a flawed government response — even as Myanmar tries to burnish its international image.

Symbolically, this is supposed to be an important moment for Myanmar in its transition to democracy. In taking over the annual rotating chairmanship of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations this month, it assumed a responsibility the government considers prestigious. And after five decades of military dictatorship, Myanmar has been moving on several fronts to shore up its international image, hosting the Southeast Asian Games, a regional sporting event, last month and releasing what it said was the last of its political prisoners.

But the United Nations report on the violence in northern Rakhine State this month is almost certain to add to criticism of the government for its failure to aggressively investigate the killings of Muslims ever since sectarian violence in June 2012 set off a series of attacks across the country.

Human rights groups say that with the latest round of anti-Muslim violence, the government now appears to be trying to cover up the problem.

The area where the attacks occurred has been torn by tensions between its Buddhist population and Muslims known as Rohingya, with frequent bursts of violence driving more than 100,000 Rohingya Muslims from their homes and leaving at least 200 dead. The majority of Myanmar’s population is Buddhist, but Muslims outnumber Buddhists along the border with Bangladesh.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/25/world/asia/un-says-muslims-were-massacred-in-tense-myanmar-region.html?rref=world/asia&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Asia%20Pacific&action=click&region=FixedLeft&pgtype=article&_r=0

I've got a question for you. I've just read some quotes from Bill Maher on Muslims. Do you agree what he says?

[lostincalifornia]

45. The invasion of Iraq was just another replay of the crusades. I remember the sentiments here when

We attacked Iraq under both bush administrations, and a good percentage of the populous here thought "those Muslims" deserved it, even though both times were based on lies.

[Enthusiast]

133. Handlers of Bush the Lesser let their guard down for a moment when he said, "It's a crusade."

Of course they rushed in to do damage control. Out of the mouth of babes.

[lostincalifornia]

160. Also at the time at least one general had the same view about it being a "crusade"

[Enthusiast]

162. Yes. They accidentally told the truth.

They weren't big on the truth.

[JoeyT]

81. Yeah, about that.

Ask a Native American how uncommon killing people is for Christians. I mean, we're a bit hard to find now, so you might have to look around a bit before you find one, but there's still a few of us.

It's more prevalent in one religion *now* because Islam is a younger religion, and Christianity already mostly went through their "Convert or enslave, and if they aren't good for either kill them" phase.

[lostincalifornia]

165. True, but it isn't just Christians, other religious denominations have and had their moments too.

What bothers me is Maher justifies it by saying in the current timeframe, "Islam is the religion that is more likely to resort to violence"

and I think that point is hogwash.

How convenient is it for us to ignore over a million people who died as a result of the two "pseudo" wars we waged against Iraq based on a lie.

I suspect his argument would be that those were wars not "terrorist" attacks. However, that does not hold much water with me, when you bomb a country and kill innocents whose only crime was being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Understand I do not condone any violence or terrorist act, but I also do not live in a vacuum, and ignore the death and destruction that has been inflicted in our name

[leftynyc]

65. When 80% of Egyptians think

that death is the proper punishment for leaving Islam, you can't really say murder isn't a basic tenet. That's about as basic as it comes.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. And more than 75% of Egytians in the same poll support religious freedom...

Try and work that one out.

And I can say murder is no more a basic tenet of Islam than it is of any other religion. What you've said doesn't show that it's a basic tenet of the religion, just that the people polled seem to be very conflicted in the replies they've given to some of the questions...

on edit: There's five basic tenets (or pillars) of Islam. Mass murder isn't one of them. Being an atheist, I think those pillars are complete shit, but I feel the same way about that about all religions and not just one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

[JVS]

69. A plausible explanation is that they interpret the term "religious freedom" as the ability...

to practice their own religion free from state interference.

[Lizzie Poppet]

139. This just in: people often believe contradictory things simultaneously.

[leftynyc]

166. Shariah is religious law

Leaving the faith is religious and the vast majority think the punishment should be death. You can dance around that all you like but there is no country that uses Old Testament scripture to name punishments for leaving the faith. Those are facts you don't seem to want to address. I'm sure the 75% are just peachy with religions OTHER than Islam (heavy sarcasm there).

[Violet_Crumble]

174. And any Islamic scholar will tell you that Shariah is interpreted differently by different people...

I posted a link to the tenets of Islam for you. What I posted is a fact. If you want to ignore it in favour of trying to portray a majority of Muslims as intolerant and murderous, I'm not going to do much else but sit here and think to myself that I'm putting you in the same category as anyone else who tries to portray the majority of any people as murderous and intolerant...

[leftynyc]

179. Perhaps you can point me

to a country that states its laws are sharia based and yet that country is not a shithole for women. Yes, there are many Muslims who are peaceful and live their lives amongst others without problems but you're trying to compare things that don't exist. There is no modern country that uses either Old or New Testament (or any other religious document) as a basis for a legal code. That is simply not true of Islam.

[Violet_Crumble]

181. Okay, here's one country you might be familiar with...

Israel. It's civil laws are controlled by government funded religious courts, and for the Muslim population of Israel, that's Sharia courts. Sharia is a subjective thing and its interpretation can differ greatly depending on who's doing the interpretation. Give that job to a hard-core religious fanatic and they're going to run with uber strict interpretations that would turn life for people living under it into something on a par brutality-wise with Game of Thrones. Give it to religious leaders in a stable democracy and you get something completely different. Which is why as an atheist I don't feel the warm fuzzies for any sort of religious laws, not when they're on the same level of importance as secular law.

http://972mag.com/why-israel-imposes-sharia-law/5824/


Anyway, all I was pointing out originally was that mass murder isn't a basic tenet of Islam, no more than it is for any other major religion

[leftynyc]

186. What unmitigated crap

Are you trying to say Israel imposes Old Testament punishment today? That Israelis can be put to death for leaving Judaism? Are they killing people who work on the the Sabbath? Are they stopping ANYONE from partying whenever they damn well please. You look very foolish in trying to make this comparison. I specifically said using religious texts as a basis of law and you're just (pathetically) trying to dance around that.

[Violet_Crumble]

188. No, it's not crap. I answered yr question...

Just a reminder of what it was. You asked 'Perhaps you can point me to a country that states its laws are sharia based and yet that country is not a shithole for women.'

I gave you an answer. You not liking it doesn't make it 'unmitigated crap'. Try clicking on the link I gave you instead of getting nasty because I actually showed you one country that does use Sharia law and religious courts. Not sure why yr getting so nasty. Is it really that vitally important to you that you want people to be ignorant of what Sharia is? If so, my question is why?

[leftynyc]

198. Israel does not have sharia law

so why you're choosing to lie is completely beyond me. Now do you want to truly answer the question without bullshit? I'm guessing not.

[Nye Bevan]

36. I agree that it is not comparable.

I wanted to give an example of a violent act motivated by Christian fundamentalism and that was the first one that came to mind.

[JackRiddler]

142. Bush said god told him to invade Iraq.

This was an act of mass murder - aggressive war, no less - worse than any ever committed by Muslims.

Was he lying? So what? Not every Islamic cleric who takes advantage of some interpretation of the Koran believes in it either.

Were there other motives? Obviously. That's kind of the point.

If you believe the 9/11 official story 100%, going by the 9/11 CR, then the killers staged the attack as retaliation for U.S. crimes in Iraq and Palestine (through Israel) and for keeping troops in Saudi. Islam was an organizing principle, not the reason for choosing to do this. They would have never done it because God told them to do it, or for the "72 virgins," or because "they hate our freedoms."

[lostincalifornia]

6. Really? Hitler wasn't that long ago, and he justified it because Jews killed Jesus, and were

Responsible for all the ills in the word. Same bullshit in the Russian pogams.

[PeteSelman]

23. So, we'll have to wait 80 years for them to stop?

Or do we have to go Dresden on them to end it? Hitler didn't just stop because he felt like it. It's a poor comparison.

[lostincalifornia]

40. Perhaps, but I can look at India, China, along with the western allies and others that are not

Muslim, and argue that their invasions or persecutions of groups that did not fit the "norm" of that society were of as equal or more scale as what he argues is a greater magnitude among Islam than others, and I say that is not accurate.

What was Viet Nam for? Spread of communism, domino effect perhaps, but in the end our involvement was based on a lie as was the invasion of Iraq. And while those conflicts may not have been visualized as religious in nature it represented a "colonial" mentality that I would argue is close to a religious "right" for those invasions

For my Hitler justification I was talking about his policy internally against Jews, Gypsies, Gays, and other "special" groups before he ventured outside his borders. From that perspective it was religious against his own citizens who were judged to be "flawed".

[nomorenomore08]

48. What about "crazy" Christians in, say, Uganda? Aided and abetted by American extremists? n/t

[PeteSelman]

100. They are as reprehensible, yes.

But that seems to be concentrated in one area.

Even the Muslims that do not suicide bomb or honor rape, the most moderate ones, still treat women like shit as a basic tenet of the religion.

All religions suck, that one just sucks more.

[nomorenomore08]

110. Maybe so. But there are enough "Christian" atrocities happening even in this country that I don't

feel comfortable being as unequivocal about this as some people are. Hate crimes and spousal abuse, to me, are more different in degree than in kind, from what goes on in Muslim countries.

[alp227]

53. In terms of violence in the name of their religion, yes.

But sometimes, I sense that radical Muslims are a hell of a lot more open with misogynistic views that right wing Christians are afraid to say but deeply agree with.

[CrawlingChaos]

111. In Europe less than 1% of terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims

In the U.S. it is also quite a tiny percentage. Data here:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/11/updated-europol-data-less-than-1-of-terrorist-attacks-by-muslims/

This thread is full of misinformation. Bill Maher and his ilk are doing a great job of spreading the fear.

[alp227]

112. Could be true in the West, but in the Middle East it's a hell of a lot higher. nt

[CrawlingChaos]

155. But if Muslims are more likely to commit violence in the name of their religion, as you stated

Why isn't that reflected in the terrorism statistics?

It makes no sense, but many will believe it because they've let their opinions be formed by hateful propaganda.

It is so easy for people with an agenda to take incidents of extremism and use those isolated incidents to smear an entire group. I thought we, as liberals, knew that was wrong?

[Luminous Animal]

67. just believing in Santa Claus... (oops) Jesus Christ is crazy right off the bat.

So I can't figure out who us crazier.

Oh, and in Uganda... Christians are hinting down the "gays'.

[backscatter712]

196. The only difference is that their crazies get away with what our crazies dream of doing.

I don’t think there's much difference at all.

And there will be none if the .gov continues to allow the Bundy Gang and other right-wing thugs to continue to terrorize people with impunity.

[chillfactor]

7. there is a button on your remote control.....

that changes channels very readily.....I suggest you use it if Maher bothers you that much........................

[cpwm17]

14. Maher's a hard-core bigot

That fact can't be said enough.

I've heard him say many unbelievable stuff, including his belief that Arabs only know violence and the only way to deal with Arabs is with violence.

[lostincalifornia]

18. Yes he is, and he knowledge of a lot of things is not that great. Compare him to Rachel, John

Stewart, etc. He talks out of his ass a hell of a lot without knowing the facts

[Jesus Malverde]

172. ^^^^^This^^^^^

[lostincalifornia]

15. So are you suggesting I should not post something about someone whose views I don't agree with?

Your point?

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Would you say the same thing if Maher was engaging in anti-semitism or homphobia? n/t

[Union Scribe]

16. Lol.

You complain about Maher's anti-Islam garbage, then proceed to turn your own thread into a pile of anti-Christian garbage. Don't worry, Maher hates them as well. He made a whole movie about it.

[lostincalifornia]

32. Not even close. Maher makes a point that Islam is far worse by magnitudes then other religions, and

That is simply not true.

I was stating not "anti-Christian garbage", but pointing out his tunnel vision in respect that Islam is so much "worse" than the others. I also alluded to atheists, and Hindus in other countries where the same atrocities occur.

To say that Islam is so much worse than others in Mass Killing is a distortion of the facts.

Even when he was arguing against Dinish regarding colonialism, he was countering his own argument how much worse by degree Islam was.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but the west had every right to "their oil". Though very few publically admit it, that attitude is part of a religious entitlement.

The documentary hearts and minds probably articulated a western view at the time when general westmoreland said "the oriental doesn't put the same high price on life as a westerner"

Obviously you lost my entire point. It was Maher always singly out Islam as worse than the others religions because they commit more mass murders, and historically that is not accurate

[Jesus Malverde]

173. He's got all sort of denigration and mockery for christians as well.

[oneofthe99]

22. Click the channel

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. I'll boycott the asshole for picking on Islam. I call on ALL other DUers to do the same.

Or not.

[lostincalifornia]

34. I am simplying saying maher does not have his facts straight by saying Islam is so much worse

[oneofthe99]

44. Right now they have a pretty good track record going

[lostincalifornia]

46. and what we did in Iran in the fifties, or Iraq under both bush administrations was responsible for

A lot of deaths against people who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or geo politics

Nothing happens in a vacuum

I think it was Wesley Clark commenting on a botched bombing mission where a wrong target was hit in Bosnia. Those people killed by those bombs would never forget, or most likely forgive

[840high]

114. IMO - it is.

[lostincalifornia]

161. History does not seem to validate that

[Vietnameravet]

103. Ok

Go to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and try to practice your religion and see what happens..

[Puzzledtraveller]

131. Invisible Sarcasm tag?

[fujiyama]

43. Maher is right on the issue - to an extent

The "left" often gives Islam a free pass. Maher is one of the few liberals (no, he's hardly what I'd call "libertarian&quot , that points this out. I'm glad he does because Islam is inherently illiberal.

Of course this doesn't mean that 1.2 billion Muslims (I could be off with the numbers) are terrorists, or sympathize with such freaks, or have any remote association whatsoever ever with such loonies. Many are not even particularly conservative. I've met Muslims from many countries and their beliefs are shaped, as much by their societies and family values as anyone else. Most Muslims are good and decent people that want what everyone wants. I don't know why I need to even state that. It should be obvious - just in case some idiot accuses me of Islamophobia or some such nonsense.

Islam itself is at the same stage of crazy as Christianity is (or was). It's also not what I'd consider a typical religion. It's a way of life. It means submission and its restrictions are rigid and punishments for violating them are much stricter as laid out in its book. Not only that, but unlike the Bible (which aside from some idiot fundies mostly in the US and I suppose Africa - whose violence and bigotry should not be minimized), the Koran is interpreted much more literally by many more of its followers.

You are correct that honor killings, female infanticide, and the mistreatment of women in the cultures you mentioned are not specific to Islam. And I do think we need to view all these issues within the proper context of those societies' individual historical patriarchal cultures and religions.

[nomorenomore08]

50. Then by that logic, Christianity is "inherently illiberal" as well.

The most progressive Christian denominations are those who more or less explicitly reject Biblical literalism.

Spousal abuse, hate crimes, encroaching theocracy - all these things are done, right here in the U.S., supposedly in the name of God. Sorry, but I'm not going to sit back and be self-satisfied just because Western Christians happen to murder gays, beat/mutilate women, etc. less often than other folks do.

[lostincalifornia]

54. But I would venture that the majority of Christians would not subscribe to that

[nomorenomore08]

56. Neither would the majority of Muslims, or at least those living in Western countries.

If we looked, I'm sure we could find ammunition to bash just about any religion on Earth. But the "tunnel vision" you describe in the OP makes it easier to scapegoat a particular faith.

[lostincalifornia]

61. Absolutely

[lostincalifornia]

51. Ok, but whether we call it a religious war or not when we supply weapons to Iraq to fight Iran, and

Play games to keep that 8 year war going, and attack Iraq twice plus willfully ignoring the issue between the Israel and the Palestinians for 8 years when the bush administration took over from Clinton, after Clinton left the bush administration an opportunity to real negotiations between the parties.

and of course the games we played in Afghanistan by giving aid to the Mujadiem(sic) against the Russians, along with destabilizing the entire Middle East by our second invasion of Iraq, is it any wonder why things are such a mess? Things did not happen in a vacuum, is my point. It does not mean everything we did was bad, but there is something wrong when every president prior to bush 2 tried to work toward peace in the Middle East, and that administration went out of their way to do just the opposite.

A million people died as a result of the Iraq war, Millions died in the war between Iraq and Iran. None of this justifies acts of terrorism against innocents, but it sure doesn't help the situation, and I have no doubt that many of those victims in those wars would regard those actions as a form of terrorism, especially as it turns out a lot of those justifications were based on lies

[uponit7771]

60. No...you were right with "as Christianity IS"...anyone willing to argue the differences don't know..

... about the parade of evils by Christianity in America

[Hippo_Tron]

123. The left gives Islam a pass because Muslims a powerless minority in this country

When Bill Maher says something shitty about Christianity, Christians have adequate media access that you'll have at least a dozen Christian leaders on television responding to him within a week. Muslims don't have that in the United States. Bill Maher says something shitty about them and they don't have the ability to reach the masses with their side of things.

If you want to beat up on Islam, do it in a place where Muslims actually have the power to respond to you.

[fujiyama]

132. I see where you are coming from...

but I don't completely agree that they have no voice. There are Muslim voices that get media coverage - like CAIR for example. It's not Maher's or anyone else's fault if CAIR or similar organizations do a poor job of marketing the religion.

And I don't understand why Islam should be off limits for criticism just because there are fewer adherents in this country. When radical Christians do crazy things (like shoot abortion doctors) or the Catholic church shuffles pedophile priests around, I don't think the issues should be dismissed just because a few followers might get offended because the truth is revealed.

But in a global context, there is much violence often involving either within Islam's borders, or those where they are a large minority. It's a faith that strikes me as immature, doctrinaire, and very insecure about its place in the world - just as Christianity was for most of its existence (and still is to a number of its followers). Maher is always clear in making that point. This isn't to dismiss the nastiness perpetrated by other religious groups - it's to keep it in perspective.

[leftynyc]

180. Only SOME liberals give Islam a pass

I sure don't. Let's try an experiment - let someone stand in the middle of any American city (or any city where the majority are Christian) and have them shout about Jesus being a fraud or a pedophile or whatever. Then do the same in the middle of a city majority Muslim country only insulting Mohammad. Let's see which one survives.

[The Straight Story]

47. Meh. People blast whole groups for what a few do here on a regular basis (nt)

[lostincalifornia]

52. True enough

[dickensknitter]

55. Keenly aware...

as a baptist minister's daughter in a small southern town that most of the folks I pressed the flesh with on any given day would feel obliged and justified in setting me afire if they knew how I really felt, I appreciate Bill's estimation of religion generally but do feel he is unduly prejudiced against Islam in particular.

[Enthusiast]

134. Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing that.

[Jamaal510]

57. I agree 100%. As much

as I love BM's show, I also cringe sometimes hearing him use a handful of extremists to deride religion in general. I know that his job is to instill laughter in his audience, and that he is an Atheist. All of that is fine, but he (and others) don't need to be so arrogant about it and basically group everyone who believes in some form of religion into the same box.
Even though there are messed up people of faith, there are also a ton of upstanding people, too. The President, for example is a Christian. There's also Reverend Al Sharpton, Sister Samone Campbell, the Dalai Lama, JFK, and more. They all have done a great deal to strengthen the progressive cause. None of them are in the same league as the Michele Bachmanns or the Sheldon Adelsons of the world.

[MurrayDelph]

58. The problem is fundamentalism

Fundamentalist so-called Christians,
Fundamentalist so-called Muslims,
Fundamentalist so-called Jews,

and Fundamentalist so-called Atheists, like Maher, who are as rabid in his proselytizing as the others.

[alp227]

117. great false equivalency with atheism

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Atheist_fundamentalism

[MurrayDelph]

127. Nice try.

But putting something into a Wiki (especially a special interest one) does not make it true, since anyone can, by definition, write to it.

On the other hand, Merriam-Webster defines fundamentalism as "a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles."

Merely saying "no, we're not!" may rebuke the God/Higher-Power part of the definition, but not the fundamentalist.

If you feel the need to proselytize, then it is a deeply-held belief that makes it no better than the so-called Christians who can't take "no thanks for an answer.

For the record, I AM an atheist, but as long as the religious (or anti-religious) don't try to force it on me, I don't try to force mine on them.

Now, my wife (also an atheist, by the way) decided that Fundamentalist Atheism was a religion when she started getting solicitations for donations from "skeptic" societies who wanted funding to help spread the skeptic word.

[alp227]

129. Then define "forcing it on me" vs discussing a POV.

"New Atheism" is often maligned as "fundamentalist atheism", simply because New Atheists dare to make arguments for nonbelief!

[TransitJohn]

136. LOL

Weak sauce.

[MurrayDelph]

152. Ouch. I am wounded by your snappy riposte.

How do they ever do without you at the Algonquin Roundtable.

[TransitJohn]

153. Weird. I was just trying to convey derision.

It wasn't deep.

[DeSwiss]

59. I used to have that problem.....

...but I solved it. Here, I don't need this anymore -- so you can have it.

- And remember -- use it early and often!!!



K&R

[lostincalifornia]

62. That doesn't solve the issue of stereotyping a group as "worse" than another group.

[azurnoir]

63. He revealed his bigotry in Religulous

he even threw in a bit of homophobia for comic 'relief' or something at least in his mind

[eridani]

71. He's anti-religion in general--part of his public image n/t

[Exposethefrauds]

73. Bill is anti ALL Religion besides nobody is forcing you to watch his show on HBO

don't like, don't watch

Bill has also spoken many times AGAINST the murderous Christians in America.

[Inkfreak]

74. He doesn't like religion. Oh well. (nt)

[devils chaplain]

75. I am really tired of people dying for mythological garbage...

...of all kinds, and so is Bill. If you think he has a soft spot for Christian fundamentalists, you haven't seen much of him or you have tunnel vision yourself.

[B Calm]

76. All Religions, not just Islam Maher objects to! and I agree with Maher.

[ancianita]

77. I agree with Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens & Ayaan Hirsi Ali.This vid is worth a look

The acceptance of the Koran is the acceptance of sharia and all conflicts now going on all over the muslim are about just that.

Sharia is NOT in any way a structure of peace. Martin Luther King would call it a system of "unjust peace" that requires force to keep half the world's population down.

That is exactly what Maher is against.

[BootinUp]

85. She's really quite impressive.

Thanks for posting.

[redgreenandblue]

80. Oh please Mr. Maher, white-splain the Islamic world to us.

The bottom line is that the white (Christian) man remains the unchallenged champion of atrocities of the last two centuries (holocaust, slavery, carpet bombing, napalm, nuclear warfare, you name it).

The Islamic world has a long way to go before they come anywhere near the level of barbarism comitted by the white Christian world.

[Zorra]

82. After watching his documentary film "Religulous", and some youtube clips of his show

that mocked Islam, it seems to me that he does despise Islam a bit more than other major religions, but that he doesn't cut the other major religions any slack either.

[LWolf]

83. When I get tired of listening to someone,

there's an easy solution. I stop listening. In the case of Bill Maher, it's pretty simple.

Change channels.

When I want to argue with someone about something they've said, I do. It's not always worth the time and oxygen, but when I want to argue a point, I will.

With the person who I'm arguing against. I generally don't start an argument about them when they can't hear it or respond.

Why not tell Maher how you feel about it?

[lostincalifornia]

86. Valid pint. Actually Maher admits he get criticism from a lot of liberals on this

[LWolf]

138. I watched Maher a bit back in the 90s.

When I divorced in '01, I stopped watching tv news and "talk," and stopped listening to talk and news radio, because I could. I've stayed informed, and haven't missed anything.

Of course, I'm someone who likes to form my own opinions and positions, and I don't depend on others to help me do so. Generally, if I'm interested in anyone else's opinions, I'll ask, or I'll check into a discussion designed to air opinions. I guess that would include the msm; it just seems to me like people check into the msm for two reasons: to reinforce their own opinions, or deride those that don't agree with them. There's no constructive purpose in that, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, I'm from the generation that was brought up to believe that offering opinion, along with the topics of politics and religion, was not acceptable in any polite conversation. That ages me, lol.

[lostincalifornia]

145. I from that same generation. "don't talk politics or religion" I was told by my folks

[LWolf]

169. I didn't understand it

until Ronald Reagan and the 80s, and then it became clear.

[Coventina]

87. I'm against the entire Abrahamic religious tradition.

It's misogynistic, racist, and violent to its core.

[Rhinodawg]

88. He hates all religions...

[lostincalifornia]

96. Except he says Isalm is worse. Listen to him. He says Jews and Christians haven't done the

Terrorism that Muslims do since the crusades

That I wearing blinders

Killing over a million people in Iraq in two war based on a lie? Killing Muslim worshipers in a mosque by a racist Israeli, what was that? Millions were killed in the 8 year war between Iraq and Iran and we were not innocent bystanders

I am not saying terrorist act where many lives are lost are not committed by Muslims, I am saying it is not exclusive to them, and Maher says it is worse with Muslims then other religions.

Maher is ignorant with facts.

[Shoulders of Giants]

91. To be fair Bill Maher did make a move called Religulous

He spent about 75% of the movie attacking Christianity. Therefore, I think its unfair to say he has tunnel vision on Islam. Infact, I would say he has spent far more of his career attacking Christianity than Islam.


I have read both the Qu'ran and Bible in full. Both are full of terrible stuff, with some occasionally good passages sprinkled in. I believe the reason most Christian countries are currently more tolerant than most Islamic countries is because of secularism. It has nothing to do with either religion. I don't believe most modern Christians have actually read the Bible, outside a few verses they might have been told to read. In fact, everyone I know personally (not online) who has read the Bible in full, including me, is an atheist.

I personally believe, that with some exceptions, the Qu'ran and the Bible are full of outdated morals that would be repugnant if followed today. This is true with both religions. Thankfully, most people don't actually read the holy books they claim to follow anymore. However, I have never understood the mindset of someone who can claim a book is the most important book ever written, and cant take the 50 or so hours it takes to read it. That's kind of lazy.

However, there are some exceptions to what I consider to be outdated morals of the two books. For example, I think in some cases, Jesus would still be more progressive than today's Democratic party. In some cases not so much. However, it personally bothers me that people follow these holy books, with terrible morals in them, and claim they are word of God. I have no clue how someone can follow a book that celebrates a genocidal God and still like to live in a modern secular life. I'm not saying this to attack anyone. It simply confuses me. I think it confuses Bill Maher as well. Dont just see this as him attacking Islam. He attacks all religions. I may not attack them as much as Bill Maher does myself, but I see his points.

[lostincalifornia]

95. The reason is because he believes Islam is worse, and that is false.

[Shoulders of Giants]

107. If he thinks its worse, why does he spend far more time criticizing christianity?

[lostincalifornia]

163. Those are his words that Islam is worse based on his view they are more violent, and that is simply

not true. In this country most of the populous believes the world revolves around them, and conveniently forgets a lot of the death and destruction we have inflicted on innocents in the middle east.

[snooper2]

189. It is worse, go to Saudi Arabia and moon some islamic police

See what that gets you LOL

[arcane1]

93. Calling out crazy for being crazy... I don't see a problem with it.

If a culture considers rape to be a punishment instead of a crime, they deserve to be called out. I've seen Maher criticize ALL religions.

[lostincalifornia]

94. Sure, but he always says Islam is far worse, and that is bull

[CrawlingChaos]

98. And when will "liberals" stop enabling Maher's hatemongering? Looks like never!

Number one thing I'm so fucking sick of hearing from people here at DU: "Bill Maher hates all religions equally" NO HE FUCKING DOES NOT. The manner in which he attacks Muslims is so much different than his jabs against other religions. One religion in particular, Judaism, gets extra gentle treatment. This is right in line with Maher's hard line pro-Israel sympathies.

Furthermore, he LIES about Islam. He is a huge source of misinformation, which is designed to make you hate and fear Muslims - and one look at this thread reveals how successful Maher and other Islamophobes have been. Here's Juan Cole on Maher's lies:

http://www.juancole.com/2012/09/muslims-are-no-different-or-why-bill-mahers-blood-libel-is-bigotry.html

Maher uses racist anti-Arab stereotypes of the violent, savage Muslim man. These are demeaning, dehumanizing stereotypes that would be completely unacceptable toward any other group!! Yet somehow, on this "liberal" board, so many people are willing to excuse Maher. FUCK THIS SHIT.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a NEOCON. Please know this when you decide to fawn all over her:

http://blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-ayaan-hirsi-ali-neocon-black-face


Furthermore, female genital mutilation is primarily an issue in certain African countries and is exceedingly rare in the Muslim world. Maher and Ali deliberately mislead people about this. But then, they are liars, so what can you expect?

Bill Maher DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WOMEN OR GIRLS. This notorious sexist, misogynist asshole only seems to care about women when it's part of one of his Islamophobic hate-fests. It's the most vile form of hypocrisy. Maher and his ilk are the real enemy of Muslim women. If people actually care, they have to stop falling for this bullshit! But if they're just looking to have their worst prejudices reinforced about the scary, foreign "others" they can look upon with disdain, then Maher's your man!

FUCK BILL MAHER.

[CrawlingChaos]

108. you are deep into Pamela Gellar territory here

I should probably thank you for providing a perfect example of exactly the sort of hateful, irrational garbage I'm talking about. But I won't.

[Blue_In_AK]

99. I generally like Bill Maher,

but given that Muslims make up about a third of the earth's population, his generalizing to the entire group is pretty stupid.

[Vietnameravet]

104. Ya well you go to any one of these Islamic countries and tell then you think Islam is wrong...

They will kill you on the spot..

[CrawlingChaos]

109. The fact that you believe that shows how successful Islamophobes like Maher have been (nt)

[alp227]

120. but do you not deny vet's overall message (despite the user's hyperbole "kill you on the spot")?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamnamazie/2012/04/13/interview-with-alex-aan-indonesian-in-prison-for-insulting-islam/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamnamazie/2014/01/22/support-ex-muslim-atheist-nasir-irshad-he-must-be-granted-asylum-in-the-uk/

[CrawlingChaos]

158. Of course I deny it

You're posting links from a woman who's devoted her life to fighting the non-threat Sharia Law in Europe, and generally making life harder for Muslims over there, as if it wasn't hard enough for them already, what with the EDL-type persecution they already endure.

If you just want your negative opinions about Muslims reinforced, their are countless bigots out there ready to do the job.

[proverbialwisdom]

119. FYI, re:#102.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat May 10, 2014, 10:57 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Too broad a brush. The post is not limited to extremists or fundamentalists governments or people that want sharia law. It generalizes to all Muslims.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I, too, disagree with the post but would prefer that the alert be posted as a public rebuttal.

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Holy shiznit. Flagrant abuse of the alert feature in order to
stifle a legitimate opposing viewpoint IMO. This isn't Freepville. A civil disagreement is not
to be muzzled. I see nothing in this post that conforms to the parameters for which it was
so capriciously alerted goddammit. LEAVE IT.

Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[Douglas Carpenter]

124. I lived 26 years in the Islamic world - you are full of shit and don't have a clue what you are

talking about. You belong on Free Republic or another hate site - not on a liberal or progressive group

[Capt. Obvious]

208. Fatwa envy

You has it

[closeupready]

118. He's a Republican in essence, in my opinion. So

his bigoted views are just par for the course, aren't they?

[SomethingFishy]

148. A Republican in essence?

Hardly. I don't agree with Maher on everything but I don't agree with anyone on everything. It's kind of how life works. However calling him a Republican is hardly even close to factual. First of all the guy gave a Million dollars to the Obama campaign. He's pro-choice, for gay rights, believes in climate change, is for income equality, thinks most Republicans are crazy. He's actually got this "flip a district" thing going trying to oust Republicans from office.

Hardly the "essence" of a Republican.

[closeupready]

151. Scapegoating Islam is bigotry, i.e., a Republican value.

Not sure there's anything mysterious about the self-evident.

[CrawlingChaos]

154. People who remember his show Politically Incorrect remember how right-leaning he was

He was an unabashed Libertarian in those days - very, very cozy with extreme right-wingers. Actually, he's still quite friendly with them; he just seems to realize that the new "psychiatric wing" of today's Republican Party will likely bring down everyone associated it. Hence the distance, IMO.

I've never completely bought the new "liberal Bill", million dollar check or not. I think he's just a careerist. Puts a finger to the wind and decides what's best for Bill at that moment in time. When the wind shifts, I'm sure Bill will too.

[Hippo_Tron]

121. Maher makes fun of all religions, but here's what I'll give you...

Muslims are a powerless minority in this country and it's bad form to beat up on the weak.

[Douglas Carpenter]

122. thank you . many of the posts here belong on FreeRepublic or other hate sites not on a progressive/

liberal forum

[Hippo_Tron]

125. The poster you responded to is a prime example of this...

I'm all for critiquing organized religion, including Islam, but I also think that with power comes responsibility. When Maher says something shitty about Muslims, Muslims have no means to respond to him in a way that will reach the masses in this country. What he says may or may not be accurate on any given night, but regardless of whether it is, the people he's talking about should have their chance to tell their side of the story. When Muslims don't have that power, it pretty much ensures that their critics will be able to lie about them, because nobody is checking their lies.

If Muslims had the power that Christians have here or hell even the power that Jews have, I'd say by all means critique away, because somebody can respond.

[Douglas Carpenter]

128. I would agree with that

The vast majority of American Muslims are decent hardworking people and most are very grateful to be living in America. It is irresponsible and immoral to make matters worse for them. Also on the international scene there is no doubt that the most reactionary wing of the Republican Party would use anti-Muslim sentiment to build support for military aggression.

[bluestateguy]

126. Honest atheists are equal opportunity criticizers

Maher is every bit as hard on Islamic wackos as he is on Christian fanatics. For years.

I have one atheist friend on Facebook who is very vocal about his beliefs. One day he will say things about Christian fanatics that will warm the heart of any good Left-progressive. Then he will pivot to saying a lot of things about Muslims that would seem to echo the words of Michael Savage or Glenn Beck, and those same progressives wince.

[JackRiddler]

144. Maher is not at all as hard on Christians.

He makes this clear pretty much every time he speaks. Islam is worse, those countries should have military dictatorships, they are backward compared to the Christian countries. His "documentary" (film of himself traveling around monologuing and harrassing interview partners) derails altogether on the point of his support for Israel.

[ancianita]

164. Wrong. He's spoken up against Christians as much, if not more, than Islam. Prove us both wrong.

[Puzzledtraveller]

130. I'm not

[WinkyDink]

135. Does that 'tunnel" lead to Nigeria?

[lostincalifornia]

146. Are you saying Islam supports that?

[WinkyDink]

167. I'm tired of the excuse that all the carnage in its name "isn't really Islam."

The bombings; the hijackings; the kidnappings; the murders of Olympic athletes, schoolchildren, politicians, bus and airplane passengers. disco-goers; "fatwas"; "child brides", AKA institutionalized pedophilia (that is to say, Islamic, NOT an aberration of its adherents. See: Ages of, Mohammed's wives); demands for changes in nations its members have immigrated to (strictly halal meat for lunches and separated genders in UK schools; wearing the veil for court appearances, photo licenses, etc.);

And now, finally, forced conversions in the 21st Century, not Medieval Crusading days and not the Spanish Inquisition era---TODAY:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.ht

Yeah, I'm not very PC or Liberal on this topic. Sue me.

[seveneyes]

170. Where are the Imams and Islamic leaders in condemning Sharia law and these atrocities???

With all the abuse and killing in the name of Islam, one would think its followers would be front and center speaking out against them. All I ever hear is crickets and I am doing searches looking for those speaking out.

[Violet_Crumble]

175. Are you using the Pamela Geller filter on yr search?

You'll have to turn it off. Go to Google, type in 'Muslim reaction to Nigerian kidnapping' and you'll see there's been a lot of speaking out against it.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=muslim+reaction+to+nigerian+kidnapping

[seveneyes]

176. Thanks, now the word needs to spread to the billion and some followers

It would also help if the leading news agencies plastered it more prominently rather than just reports of no progress in stopping the malaise.

[Violet_Crumble]

178. No problems. I already knew you'd find something about it to complain about...

Those google results were pretty damn prominent. Only Pamela Geller and her ilk could have missed them. I'm not entirely sure why yr fixated on the billions of Muslims around the world, but I'm sure as many of them are aware of the kidnappings as people of other religions or no religion at all are aware. Why? Do you feel that individual Muslims should feel personally responsible for what an extremist group does?

[seveneyes]

194. Education

The more stigma that can be attached to those that abuse the tenets of Islam, the more people that will be educated to follow the peaceful side. Also, a clear description of exactly what parts of Islam the terrorists are abusing so that it is clear to those being taught what is the correct interpretation. Insure that no more youth are taught the wrong teachings so they don't grow up to become extreme followers of things like Sharia law and don't look upon women as child bearing slaves.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

147. Maher calls out Christians all the time, more than any other religion....

The difference is, he's not a hypocrite and gives other religions passes because "we just don't understand their culture".

[hrmjustin]

149. I didn't see the show but he goes after religion a lot.

I don't care for it sometimes but at other times he has his points when he discusses fundamentalists.

[mwrguy]

156. Maher's hatespeach has no place on television

[cpwm17]

187. Yes, some people can't tell the difference between fair criticism

and hateful bigotry. There is a difference. Maher crosses way over the line into pure bigotry.

[Blue_In_AK]

157. ...

[YoungDemCA]

159. During that entire discussion, not one person mentioned the US government's responsibility....

..in terms of its foreign policy over the past century, which has had dire consequences for not just the spread of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism; but also, for any prospects for world peace or stability in regions like the Middle East, much of Africa, and parts of Asia.

You begin to ask, why does hardly anyone in the American media discourse about terrorism ever stop and think maybe our government's policies and priorities are a (big)part of the problem?

[WinkyDink]

168. Oh, please. Like Islamic fundametalists needed a reason.

[seveneyes]

171. What is fundamental about abusing women and other atrocities?

If murder, rape and torture is part of "Islamic fundamentalism", shouldn't the fundamentals of such a religion be changed or revised?

[leftynyc]

183. What a bunch of crap

Are you seriously going to blame the west for how women are treated is majority Muslim countries and also expect to be treated seriously here? Do you really disprespect all the Muslims so much that they're merely puppets of the west?

[joeybee12]

201. I agree...when you murder people of a country, when the West is seen as the enemy

and is indeed in fact the enemy, then of course they have a willing audience such fundamentalism, which is seen as a rejection of the west.

[NCTraveler]

182. Never understood why people think....

that when one rails against something that is obviously bad, they must follow it up for the next couple of hours talking about how other groups are doing something similar. It is truly a manner of fallacious arguments. I often hear people say something bad about Bush, then asked why they didn't mention person X who has done the same thing. Just because others have done it doesn't mean they all need to be the topic. Just because x has done it doesn't mean y is just as bad of a person.

[redgreenandblue]

190. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank ...

... in your own eye?"

The western "christian" civilization produced a 23 million body count in the 20th century. The islamic world has a long way to go to come even close to that.

Hypocricy and deflection should be pointed out when it occurs.

[NCTraveler]

191. You see the fallacy you are attempting to make. It is extremely clear.

I think all people should have to take a course in Applied Ethics before debating anything.

[ancianita]

192. "We hope that Americans and British are pushed out of our countries so that we can implement sharia"

Sharia law ... is justice for mankind. Imposing sharia law on everyone] will take mankind out of the shackles of man-made law into the beauty and perfection of divine law...I want that everywhere...I believe that Americans, British and people of the world have been living in the darkness and hegemony of exploitation of manmade law for many decades...I am participating in communication with people all around the world.

from

The debate about what Islam's men are in agreement about what to "allow" and "not allow..."

[seveneyes]

197. Why is such hate and abuse allowed to be taught to youth?

The circle of bad teaching needs to be broken.

[ancianita]

199. Allowed because children can be raised by any belief system parents want to impose. Such beliefs

are often not allowed to be challenged as "hate and abuse," although their results are often experienced as psychologically damaging in various ways as are the results of being raised by addicts.

[backscatter712]

195. What's the difference between Islamic crazies and domestic Christian crazies?

Virtually none.

The Islamic crazies have learned they can get away with their vileness and violence.

The American Taliban is still afraid of getting busted.

BUT. If groups like the Bundy gang aren't brought down with maximum force, the American Taliban will start figuring out that they can get away with terrorism too.

[ancianita]

202. The difference is in whether or not their holy books become the law of the land. So far, here, the

dominionists aren't going to be allowed to use the christian bible as law. Other countries with minority muslim populations don't allow the Q'uran to be their 'law of the land.'

Not so in Islamic states, where Islam's demographic domination leads to their brand of theocracy, imposing 'submission' on half their populations from childhood onward.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/03/15/comment/coucil-of-islamic-ideology-declares-womens-existence-anti-islamic/

[Trajan]

206. I stand with Maher .... I denigrate and mock all 'faiths'

Islam is just as crazy and dangerous to humanity as Christianity .... just more active right this moment ...

[ecstatic]

213. I'm growing tired of him too. He's becoming more of an asshole

the older he gets. He thinks he can say ANYTHING -whether talking about religion, women, gays, black people, etc. I've always considered him to be a bit of a jerk who was ultimately "on my side," but now I'm wondering if it's time to move on (as far as following him and including him in my DVR lineup).

[truebrit71]

214. He ridicules ALL religion....

...not just Islam...