I'm sick of this myth that people in other countries hate free health care

[JohnnyRingo]

I have a solution for all those make believe Canadians that wing nuts are always citing as the disillusioned examples of socialized medicine. To hear conservatives tell it, they're fairly screaming for a shot at the good old red, white, and blue health care we enjoy.

Well here it is:

http://www.bluecross.ca/

Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Canada will sell them all the health care they can afford. You have to select English or French before choosing your province of course, but it's still the system people like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly have used to keep them healthy for years.

These right wing asses talk like private insurance is illegal in other countries. The fact is, no self respecting insurance company would let something like a mere government prevent them from serving a paying market. In the Canada case at the link, Blue Cross exists to write private policies for companies that want to lure executives with premium benefits packages.

The next time some Barstool Republican blabbers on about how Canadians are rafting across Erie in the dead of night to get to the Cleveland Clinic for a head cold, remind him of why they call them "smart phones" and ask if his has the Google.

...and thank you DU for bringing back the spel checher.
LOL

[Lint Head]

1. There was a radio host here in Nashville TN that called 100 people in Canada in the phone book

randomly. He asked there permission to be on radio and then asked them what they thought of Canadian Health Care. Not one person put it down or said they had to wait in line for procedures. The Radio Host was Les Jamerson. He was born in England. The entire show consisted of him calling Canadians. That was over 20 years ago. We are still 36th in the world in health care and have one of the highest infant mortality rates for newborns in the world.

Single payer is the only way!!!!

[doc03]

3. I had a discussion with a Canadian a few days ago and he had problems with it. He said for

regular medical care it was great. But if you need elective surgery like a knee or hip replacement there is a
two year waiting list. He said they will have to eventually go to sort of a hybrid system, one for regular treatment and
people that can afford it will have to pay for private insurance to cover the elective treatments.

[laundry_queen]

5. I still have not met these mythical people that waited that long

My FIL required a double knee replacement. He didn't get one for years because he was quite young and back then his doctor said he'd need several surgeries because the fake knees would wear out. When his new doctor found out that my FIL needed knee replacements my FIL got his first one 3 weeks later, and when he was walking, the other knee was done. Both within a few months.

My dad had hip replacement surgery - he was never at that point where he needed painkillers every day but he thought he should ask his doctor about it and 3 months later had had not just a regular hip replacement, but some new kind of way of doing it for more active people. It was a surgery that only a few specialists could perform and he had his surgery a few weeks after his first consult, which was a month or so after his first doctor appointment/x-rays to determine if he needed a replacement.

My mom had foot surgery and had no wait at all other than a week to get in with the specialist, and then booking the surgery.

The longest anyone I know has ever waited for surgery is my uncle. He has some rare degenerative back thing that requires a surgery that only a couple doctors in the entire country perform. He's so scared of actually having the surgery that he's turned down the call a few times, so he's been waiting over a year. He could've had it sooner, but as I said, is reluctant.

When I had my first gall bladder attack, I was told surgery had a long wait. I explained that I was a single mom/full time student and only had a narrow window where I actually have the surgery. They totally accomodated me and I only had to wait 3 weeks.

My daughter, when she was 2 years old, had bilateral trigger thumb, which is not a condition that needs immediate fixing. We were living in the boonies so we did have to travel to see the specialist, but within the month her hands were fixed.

I have *heard* of these so called 2 year waiting lists, but I don't know anyone who has ever waited that long for anything. I suppose it's possible some people are like my FIL where there doctor tells them to wait and they aren't actually ON the list and they count that part as waiting too. Once you are on the list, it's generally not that long, and if you make a few phone calls, and tell them why you can't wait any longer, they do their best to try to get you in sooner.

Most provinces understand the whole 'waiting time' criticism and have active programs to reduce wait times. Most of those programs have done a good job at reducing wait times.

[JDPriestly]

9. We have a friend in this country who is waiting for heart surgery.

He really, really needs it and has top-quality insurance, but he has to wait for the surgery. It isn't a transplant or anything like that, just surgery, but he still has to wait.

So, that argument is silly.

There is very little likelihood that someone will waiting for knee surgery. But heart surgery????

And on that, the waiting is in this country.

[csziggy]

35. And here I am in the US with private insurance waiting for knee replacement

I was told by my physical therapist that it was time on Feb 7. It took two weeks to see my old orthopedic surgeon. He referred me to the surgeon in the practice that does knee replacements. It took two weeks for them to call me to make my first appointment, a month after that to actually SEE the doctor.

Now I'm waiting for the lab work so they can call me to start the process to schedule the surgery. I hope I can get the surgery scheduled by June for the first knee. Then I start all over again for the second knee since the doctor is worried about doing both at the same time.

And since my doctors are not 'in network' I get the privilege of paying 30% out of pocket up to $10,500 PLUS whatever my doctor charges above what the insurance company chooses to pay. I might be able to negotiate with the doctor and save some money but it's guaranteed to be a big chunk of change out of my pocket. That's why I will be working really hard to recover from the first surgery fast - that $10,500 is max out of pocket per year, so if both are done the same year I will save money.

I bet in Canada (and most other developed countries with a sane health care system) even if the wait is as long as I will have the patient will not have to struggle to PAY for the care as much as I will have to.

[laundry_queen]

6. BTW, ask him if he's ever had to wait that long

the reason I ask is there are indeed right wing talking points here going around about 'long waits' and 'that's why we need a hybrid system'. Sounds like the Canadian you talked to watches Sun tv.

[SomethingFishy]

7. Well, he could move here, get for profit insurance and

be turned down completely for "elective surgery".

[Mariana]

24. +1. That's EXACTLY what would happen. nt.

[madrchsod]

2. maybe they should ask people who have medicare if they want for profit heathcare...

[Mariana]

25. Oh, hell no, none of them do.

The Republicans amongst them just don't want anyone ELSE to have it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. Exactly....because as they will tell you...THEY EARNED IT!

That's what my tea party neighbor says...Trash talks SS and Medicare and when asked if he will take advantage of both when the times comes, his reply is....HE EARNED IT!.

[kestrel91316]

4. I hate when people refer to taxpayer-funded healthcare as

"free health care". It ain't free - people may pay into it at varying rates, but everybody pays something (except a rare few who we don't begrudge care to, like those with severe birth defects).

[Art_from_Ark]

12. Certainly here in Japan, it's not free for the general population

I have to pay a premium to the national health insurance plan six times a year (based on income, age, and family size), and pay 30% of the total cost of necessary medical and dental and prescriptions. However, the medical care is nowhere near as expensive as in the US, and seniors and young children can essentially have free care.

[Suich]

14. Bingo!

2 years ago I spent 24 hrs. in EOS (Emergency Observations Services) because of a staph infection. I had an IV drip, 3 pretty bad meals, and one visit by a physician. The bill was over $7,000, which Medicare paid for.

I've heard all kinds of reasons for the high cost, but none that make any sense.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Yes, and certain chronic and catastrophic conditions are entirely covered

In addition, there are co-pays but no deductibles, and if your co-pays exceed a certain amount per year, you get a refund from the government. At least that 's what my translator friends tell me.

Furthermore, college students are another group that gets low-cost medical care--at least they did when I was a student. I signed up for the government program when I was a student in Tokyo, and then my school gave me another card that reduced my co-pay to only 5%.

[Art_from_Ark]

33. It seems like they've done away with the student discount

In fact, they've apparently raised the amount to be borne by seniors and parents of small children, according to this web site. However, when I was at the dentist's office the other day, there was a notice about a special reduced-cost dental program for children up to 3rd grade.

http://tt110.net/11kenkouhoken/H-k-futan.htm

[JDPriestly]

8. I lived in several European countries and loved the single payer

heathcare. It was wonderful. So, don't believe those who say nobody likes it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. During the health care debate there was a British conservative who went on Fox News and

talked about how everyone in Britain hated the system.

The Guardian covered this and received over 800 readers' comments. I had no work that day and was interested in the subject, so I read them all.

Many of the commenters had experienced both the British and American systems, either as Brits in the U.S. or Americans in the UK.

About 2/3 of the commenters liked the NHS just fine. The other 1/3 said that they didn't like it and preferred the French system or the Swedish system or some other European system. All the people who had experienced both the American and British systems preferred the British system--except for one man who said that as a medical specialist, he'd be able to make more money in the States.

[Zax2me]

11. Socialized medicine isn't 'free'

It's paid for by taxpayers.
No one hates free anything.
No myth.

[JohnnyRingo]

15. Perhaps you're right

The title should have refered to the myth that people in other countries hate "socialized medicine", or "government supplied health care".

That's a myth that the right has been broadcasting for decades. From Limbaugh to Beck, they always speak of how Canadians (in particular) want our system of health care. The truth is, they're free to buy it if they want. The supplied link is all they need to get started with a private insurance plan.

The post was inspired by a woman on "Real Time Bill Maher's tonight", who once again trotted out the "everybody wants our health care system" speech. I wish just once, the host would ask why they think private insurance is illegal in other countries.

[marlakay]

13. I have friends in Canada and Australia

Both are grateful for their health insurance, had no problems with it, including operations, having kids etc.

The friend in Australia said its hard to pick your doctor and you don't always like the one they give you, but when I told her about my care With Insurance she was apalled and said hers was great compared to ours.

[SwissTony]

16. Is your friend in Auistralia talking about GPs?

In Australia, you do pick your own GP. You don't "sign up" to a practice or a GP. You can see one GP in the morning and another in the afternoon. In then practice I attended in Darwin, I asked for the same doctor every time, adjusting my appointment time if necessary. When he was unavailable (holiday), I was offered the choice of five other doctors (by name).

I lived in Darwin, Adelaide and Ballarat and it was the same in all three places. Might be different in Sydney, but I've never heard of it.

[GoCubsGo]

17. I'm even more sick of the people who perpetuate that myth.

I'm sick of hearing them say, as one of these jackasses did in my morning paper today, "Keep your hands off my wallet." These imbeciles don't realize that while they're worried about their fucking wallets, their bank accounts are being pilfered by the parasitic insurance industry. Thanks for posting that link. Anything to shut up these blithering idiots.

[newspeak]

18. bill maher was on last night

and had a woman on from the daily beast. With a straight face she stated the mortality rate in great britain for women with breast cancer was forty-five per cent. The reason, they have to wait to see a doctor. Not one person on the panel called her on the BS.

[Prophet 451]

23. The actual rate

is around 26 per 100,000 women. Cancer Research UK have a bundle of figures (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/breast/mortality/uk-breast-cancer-mortality-statistics). The cancer mortality rate is somewhat higher here than in the US and that's mainly because the British tend not to get checked (or check themselves) when there are no symptoms.

[Mariana]

27. To listen to conservatives in the US

the NHS is killing off people wholesale. Just telling them to go to hell, we're not paying for any treatmemt for you, it's too expensive, you're too old, so get the fuck out and die already. It's a crock, of course, but they believe it fervently.

[Prophet 451]

37. It is a complete crock

My grandmother got top-notch care for her cancer until it sadly killed her. As I said, Brits have a tendancy to not get checked when there's no symptoms so, by the time there were symptoms, it was too late.

[Mariana]

39. My husband is English, although we live in the US

for the time being, anyway. Believe me, it's a huge relief to know that we can relocate if we need to, for whatever reason - such as if we lose our health insurance!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Well I can play "anecdotal evidence" too

When I was in England in 2007, I asked people about their health care.

The landlady in one of the B&B's told of going for her annual checkup and having her GP tell her that he suspected cancer. (She didn't say where. She was kind of old-fashioned, so it may have been some place an old-fashioned landlady wouldn't want to talk about.) He sent her to an oncologist (she got in two days later) who confirmed that she did have cancer. She had surgery and chemo without paying a cent.

Having heard all the horror stories about long waits, I asked her how long it was from the oncologist's diagnosis to her surgery.

"Two weeks," she said.

Right-wingers like to cite higher cure rates for breast and prostate cancer in the U.S. than in the U.K.

One reason is that the U.S. tends to aggressively treat breast and prostate tumors that grow so slowly that the person would probably die of old age before the cancer affected them in any way. This counts as a "cure," when it wouldn't have killed the person anyway.

If you compare fast-growing tumors, the U.S. and U.K. survival rates are quite similar.

[Prophet 451]

38. Another reason...

...is that we Brits have a tendancy to not get ourselves checked when there aren't symptoms so, by the time there are symptoms, it may be too late. That's a cultural thing that successive health departments have tried to change but to no avail.

[fascisthunter]

21. right wingers are stupid fanatics

there is no rational explanation for their POV on this issue.

[libtodeath]

19. It is nothing but rw lies about the evil of socialism

we need to fight back and convince people that democratic socialism is the best system for everyone.

[NCTraveler]

20. What country gets free health care.

That is such a loaded way to phrase it.

[dionysus]

30. yeah that jumps out at you doesn't it.

[Prophet 451]

22. I'm British and we love our NHS

The NHS isn't "free" because we pay taxes to support it (well, I did before I became disabled) and we bitch and moan about it because we're British. Bitching and moaning is what we do, it's virtually a national sport. But whenever someone proposes getting rid of the old dear, we shout them down and boot them out of office. We're furious right now because, having campaigned on the NHS being safe with them, the bastard scum Tories are introducing which may, many years from now, lead to privatisation (we're furious with the Tories for many other reasons as well, we are having a national nightmare of buyer's remorse). We had a mini-hate for Americans a few years back when your right-wing started lying about our NHS.

You can still buy private insurance here and some do. Sometimes, they want to skip the availability lists (which means they're often seen by an NHS doctor moonlighting in his free time), some want luxurious hospitals and brand-name drugs (the NHS tends toward functionally spartan and generics to keep costs down), some just want the status symbol. Some large companies offer it as a perk for their high-level employees. But my point is that the NHS provides a "backstop", a ground-floor of service for price and to compete with that, private insurance has to offer a better service for a decent price. Which I always thought was the essence of capitalism. There's a small fee to have a prescription filled (currently about $15) but the young, old and poor are exempt from that and it's main purpose is to stop you bugging your doctor with crap that only needs a couple of asprin.

Proper single-payer universal healthcare in the USA would also mean building things. Hospitals, roads to connect them, ambulances for them to use, medical equipment to fill the hospitals with. And then all those hospitals need staffing. Yes, that means doctors but it also means paramedics, janitors, groundskeepers, canteen staff, someone to staff the newstand, receptionists, maintenence staff and I'm sure I'm missing out loads of people there. Yes, it would cost a fortune to set up an American single-payer universal system but that money only needs to be spent once (you just have to pay the comparatively small upkeep), creates stacks of new jobs and you get a shiny new health system out of it.

I deal with the NHS every week. Because I'm disabled (for reasons of both physical and mental health), I see my doctor all the time. I chose my own doctor, the same guy I've seen since I was a student. I can usually get an appointment within a couple of days with my own doctor who knows me and knows my history and knows the massive amounts of drugs I'm on. I know him quite well and he's not making millionaire money but he has a nice upper-middle-class life. New car every few years, couple of holidays a year, that kind of life.

Finally, here's a few figures for you (all either from Wiki or the CIA World Sourcebook):
Amount spent by Americans on Medicaid, Medicare and private insurance: aprox. $2.3 trillion, aprox. 45 million uninsured

NHS budget per citizen (in dollars): aprox. $2000 per citizen, per year. 0 uninsured.

Amount it would take to cover entire US population under NHS model (discounting start-up costs): aprox. $600 billion.

Amount to cover entire US population under French model (rated as world's best): aprox. $900 billion

Average tax paid by an average Briton: 22% + aprox. 9% National Insurance (our version of Social Security)

Average NHS administration overhead: aprox. 6.8% (unionised staff with pensions and benefits)

[dionysus]

31. excellent post

[Prophet 451]

36. Thank you. In theory...

...coming to this late could actually help you. Different nations have different methods of funding and administering their healthcare. So, if the nation were committed to true single-payer universal healthcare, you could set up a commision to look at the existing systems, avoiding the worst parts while taking the funding mechanism from this one and the feedback system from that one; mix and matching parts until you come up with something uniquely American.

[JohnnyRingo]

41. Thanx for your input

it bolsters my argument that universal health care is a basic right.

Blowhardts here, like Rush Limbaugh, have been citing for years Euro ghosts who wish they had our system. Of course, he and his listeners assume private insurance is illegal in such "socialist" havens.

I'll quote you if I may in future discussions with right wing robots who become mesmerized with the squealing static of AM talk radio.

[Prophet 451]

42. Please do

As I said, coming to this late could actually work in your favour because it allows you to study the existing systems and take the best parts from each until you come up with a system designed specifically for your country.

[JohnnyRingo]

43. "Favour".

LOL

I love the vernacular.

Local colour considered, the King's english is so quaint in the colony that endevoured to coin the word "ain't".

I dearly love the Motherland. I have a '71 Triumph TR6, and no, you can't have it back.

I've maintained the bond of my mother's roots... through boot, bonnet, and tyre.

[dionysus]

28. no health care is ever free;they pay for it with their taxes. it's just that govt\single payer is a

better system. profit motive in the medical industry is evil. if you take that out and taxes provide the funding for it, everyone can get top notch care with being sucked financially dry from the process.

[Incitatus]

32. I read an article recently about Japan spending among the least amount on health care, per capita

while having one of the healthiest countries. I'm not aware of any of them screaming about how they want our system, where we spend the most and have the worst care (among industrialized nations, of course). Another interesting thing to note about their hospitals is that they must be non-profit and run by physicians. It's not just the insurance companies, hospitals do their share of obscene profit taking too.

[Quantess]

34. Except it isn't "free" as others have pointed out.

Some countries charge a small fee for doctor visits and a slightly larger (but still cheap) fee for a hospital stay.