Mass Shooter influenced by the "Men's Rights Movement"

[BainsBane]

Last Night in Santa Barbara California, a Gunman in a BMW opened fire on students near the UC Santa Barbara campus in Isla Vista. Seven are dead including the gunman, with a further seven injured.

The Gunman's Name is Elliot Rodger. Last night, he posted a chilling manifesto to youtube. Announcing that he is a 22 year old Virgin who has never been kissed he says:


"It's not fair. You girls have never been attracted to me. I don't know why you girls have never been attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. It's an injustice, a crime, because I don't know what you don't see in me. I'm the perfect guy, and yet you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men, instead of me, the supreme gentleman."
"I will punish all of you for it," he says again, and then he laughs.

"On the day of retribution I will enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB, and I will slaughter every single spoiled stuck up blonde slut I see inside there. All those girls that I've desired so much, they would have all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them. While they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes. I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one. The true Alpha Male."
The true Alpha Male. What those who call themselves the Mens Rights Movement aspire to be. .

The Men's Rights Movement as they call themselves is a nebulous group of pickup artists and misogynists who've found each other on line, and are attempting to create a movement based around their hatred, disdain, and fear of women.

We know for a fact that Rodgers was influenced by this movement, as he is subscribed to multiple "pick up artist" or "mens rights" channels on YouTube. (For those here that don't use YouTube, when a user subscribes to a channel, they receive notifications when that channel posts a new video.)[
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/24/1301671/-Elliot-Roger-Gunman-in-California-Mass-Shooting-was-influenced-by-the-Men-s-Rights-Movement

Gunman's video declaring the reason for his actions:

[shenmue]

1. Sick

[BainsBane]

2. What more do we need to conclude that MRAs are hate groups?

[hlthe2b]

14. when the Southern Poverty Law Center declared them so... along with the white supremacists,

Last edited Sat May 24, 2014, 05:05 PM - Edit history (1)

NeoNazi groups, and related far right extremist groups, several years back, many of us took immediate notice.

So sad that these groups can have the influence they do on young impressionable young adults and adolescents.

What a tragedy.

[BainsBane]

17. Did you see the post

where one DUer insisted that they really weren't hate groups and that the real enemies were feminists, evidence by a quote from one who doesn't have sex with men. The nerve of some women to exercise their hate against men by being lesbians.

[hlthe2b]

38. Oh my...

[Sheldon Cooper]

42. Can you send me a link to that post?

I need to see this bit of excrement.

[BainsBane]

44. This is the OP

(mine) of the thread in which the comment was posted. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024833116

[Sheldon Cooper]

49. Heh, I've had that one on ignore forever.

For good reason, too. Thanks.

[VanillaRhapsody]

88. Ugh....those 2 are even worse than I thought....disgusting!

same ones that always jump into the threads discussing "White male privilege".....and deniers of course. But I had no idea how far into MRA they were....glad I never gave either of them any quarter!

[liberalhistorian]

209. Ah, I must be psychic!

I figured I knew who it was who expressed that pellet of rat turd of an opinion before I even clicked on it, and by damme if I wasn't right!!! No surprise to me at all. This is, after all, the genius who considers child support to be "male enslavement" and who insists that there are far more male victims of DV than women victims and who hews to the "benevolent" view of patriarchy, that it's a matter of chivalry (men and boys being charged with "protecting" us helpless, weak womenfolks) rather than the matter of authority, control and possession that it really is. I could go on, but most of you probably already know what he and his coterie of followers here are all about. The only reason I don't have him on ignore is because I want to see what other kinds of craziness he comes up with.

[IrishAyes]

267. I don't put anyone on ignore either, no matter how repulsive their behavior. Not only

do we need to know what garbage they're up to, I don't think anyone can serve on a jury for someone they have on ignore. If we don't keep our own floors swept clean, who will? Nobody, that's who. And then we'd be complicit in the crime.

[MattBaggins]

200. Holy shit what post was that

[AverageJoe90]

26. And they were right. Damn right. nt

[Upton]

82. That's not correct..

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit. But we did call out specific examples of misogyny and the threat, overt or implicit, of violence.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/

[BainsBane]

163. The article continues

Thomas James Ball, for example, who was hailed as a martyr on so many men’s rights forums, called for arson attacks on courthouses and police stations. The Norwegian mass killer Anders Breivik wrote extensively about the evils of feminism. We included as much as we did about Register-Her.com because it is so intimidating to its targets, not all of whom are criminals. When Elam accused Vliet Tiptree, a pseudonymous contributor to RadFem Hub, of “calling for extermination of half the human race; the male half, that is,” he offered a cash reward for her real identity. The names and locations of several candidates were publically aired. . .

I dare say that if social justice and equal protection under the law were all that the MRM were about, then the SPLC would have had no reason to write about it. If the article inspires more self-criticism in this vein, then perhaps it did the Men’s Rights Movement a service.

MRAs are united around a hatred for women. It really is that simple. Some seem to think hating women is an acceptable ideology. I do not. I see it no more acceptable than hating people of color.

[Upton]

169. That's nice...

but where does the SPLC specifically designate MRAs as hate groups?

[BainsBane]

184. Here

Misogynists in the men’s and fathers’ rights movements have developed a set of claims about women to support their depictions of them as violent liars and manipulators of men. Some suggest that women attack men, even sexually, just as much as men attack women. Others claim that vast numbers of reported rapes of women, as much as half or even more, are fabrications designed to destroy men they don’t like or to gain the upper hand in contested custody cases. What follows is a brief look at some of these claims and what the best science really shows.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

SPLC tracks hate groups. That is what they do.

I dare say that if social justice and equal protection under the law were all that the MRM were about, then the SPLC would have had no reason to write about it

From your own link.

[Upton]

186. Uh, huh..

but nowhere does the SPLC specifically designate MRAs as hate groups. However, they do go out of thier way to state that's NOT thier intention. Lets look at it again..

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/

It couldn't be much clearer...

[BainsBane]

188. Misogyny

= hatred of women, as killing them is a pretty good indicator of. The question here is why do you feel compelled to defend MRAs?

[Upton]

193. I see...

You must not have been able to find an SPLC link to counter mine, so you've been reduced to insinuating I'm a defender of misogyny.

And I've got a question for you, why do you feel the need to embellish or push outright falsehoods in order to make a point?

[BainsBane]

194. Knock off the crap

This is what I wrote:

The question here is why do you feel compelled to defend MRAs?

Where is the falsehood?

I called you nothing. I asked you a question. You can choose to answer or not, but playing the victim does not suffice as an answer and is frankly weak.

[Upton]

197. Wrong assumption..

I'm referring to your continued claim in this thread that the SPLC has listed MRAs as hate groups. Unless, you can show me otherwise, it's a falsehood.

And I don't play the victim. I leave that kind of garbage up to you and your compadres.

[BainsBane]

202. comadres is the correct word

Let's review: they identify the MRAs as misogynists. Misogyny means hatred of women. SPLC devotes itself to hate groups. They track the arguments and activities of MRA groups, not simply in that one article: http://www.splcenter.org/search/google/MRA?query=MRA&cx=011869570708919044592%3Agucfjjffq2e&cof=FORID%3A11&sitesearch=

http://www.splcenter.org/search/google/Men%27s%20Rights?query=Men%27s%20Rights&cx=011869570708919044592%3Agucfjjffq2e&cof=FORID%3A11&sitesearch=

I dare say that if social justice and equal protection under the law were all that the MRM were about, then the SPLC would have had no reason to write about it

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/


Back to what YOU said in your post:

You must not have been able to find an SPLC link to counter mine, so you've been reduced to insinuating I'm a defender of misogyny.

And I've got a question for you, why do you feel the need to embellish or push outright falsehoods in order to make a point?

I read that as an attempt to distract from the issue by playing the victim.

No feminist can compare to the MRAs in self-entitled victimhood, as the shooter's video makes clear, just as every MRA website demonstrates. Of course there is the minor fact that women actually do face discrimination, whereas white men do not. But don't let a minor issue like civil rights concern you.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

221. You are clearly incorrect

Let's review: they identify the MRAs as misogynists.

No. You are clearly incorrect. By your own quote of the SPLC:

Misogynists in (emphasis added) the men’s and fathers’ rights movements have developed a set of claims about women to support their depictions of them as violent liars and manipulators of men.

The word in means "some", not "all". That's a big difference.

Just like I can say "Counterproductive left wingnut haters in the D.U. have developed a set of claims about Democrats to support their depictions of them as violent liars and betrayers of the proletariat", and by no means be saying that all D.U.ers are this way.

Obviously some right wingers would like to dismiss all DUers are frustrated communists who are so extreme, they hate the Democratic party for not campaigning to destroy free enterprise. But this is clearly false. It's really just a very tiny vocal subset of people in the D.U. who have these sorts of feelings.

I'm none too familiar with MRA groups, other than perusing reddit/r/redpill out of curiosity and finding it incoherent, but it is absolutely 100% obvious that at least that "MRA" group does not depict women as "violent". So the SPLC must be talking about some other subset that aren't very much in public.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[BainsBane]

223. Racists IN the KKK conduct lynchings

and? Their ideology is still one of hatred, as is MRA. They may not all depict women as violent, but they all hate women.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

224. I trust that if the SPLC had meant to say all MRA groups hate women...

...they would have clearly done so, which they did not.

That's your own interpretation, which you're entitled to, but don't go putting your opinion into other's mouths by twisting their words to make it fit.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[IrishAyes]

269. Good for you - give 'em hell.

Bullies often kick first, then play the victim in a transparent attempt to deflect blame. They rely on such low tactics whenever faced with opposition of ANY kind on ANY subject. There you go again, defying their self-proclaimed male privilege. For shame!

[hlthe2b]

176. Just a group that engages in "threat, overt or implicit, of violence" towards women, says SPLC

Hard to distinguish where group that "engages in hate speech and advocates violence" ends and a designated hate group, eh Upton? Good gawd.

[Marr]

183. The SPLC labelled MRA groups as hate groups? /nt

[840high]

116. Sick and lonely.

[Warpy]

3. Oh, another "Nice Guy" who thinks women owe him something.

Why am I not surprised by this? MRA groups are dominated by guys under 30, aided by bitter old men in their 50s. There don't seem to be too many in between.

[villager]

4. So those of us in our 50's are "old men" eh? Thanks for the stereotyping...

You have a good Saturday, too...

[BainsBane]

6. No, but some in that age bracket are older in their views of the world,

and women in particular, than others.

[Warpy]

7. You are to people in their 20s and 30s

Don't worry, I left my 50s long ago and am now dragging them far behind me.

[villager]

40. And people in their 30s are old to teenagers...

I know.

I think we just have to be careful about "old men," "young punk," et al, and ascribing attitudes to someone solely on the basis of age.

Which would be like ascribing attitudes to them solely on the basis of gender, or anything else...

[Fuddnik]

117. Hell, I remember when the dinosaurs died.

But, I ain't old, and I'll never grow up!

[liberalhistorian]

8. Hey, I'm an almost-fifty

years young gal and I've been called "old" in many situations and areas now for nearly ten years, lol. I just tell those who say that to wait until they're over forty, they won't be thinking of people over forty as "old" anymore and it'll happen before they know it.

[kcr]

9. Someone on another brand new website

that's been getting a lot of buzz around here said that only women in their 30s and older will date normal looking guys. It's even worse if you're a woman.

[BainsBane]

15. They are happy as clams over there

Free to be exactly who they are, who we knew they were all along.

[kcr]

83. Sympathizing with the shooter

I'm not even surprised given what's been posted here on DU.

[BainsBane]

89. Are they really?

Overtly sympathizing with the shooter?

[kcr]

90. Yes, because women won't sleep with unattractive men

Until they're 30 of course, and then who cares, who wants to sleep with woman older than 30?

I'm not even making it up. It's a crisis, apparently.

[BainsBane]

94. They don't mean "women"

They mean the women they want. They don't even acknowledge the existence of women they don't consider "hawt."

That shooter, BTW, is not unattractive physically. His looks aren't what turned women off. It had to be the psycho-killer vibe.

That place is too much.

[kcr]

100. Yep, he clearly major problems

You would think that would be obvious. I can see having sympathy, but not empathy. Yikes.

[billhicks76]

119. Sad sad sad

This kid actually looks like the type of guy many women I know ARE attracted to. It's his persona and vibe and most probably lack of confidence that's off-putting. He sounds like a victim of bullying to me but I haven't read the facts.

[kcr]

128. Nothing so far about bullying

He targeted women and was racist. He sounds more like a bully than the bullied.

[AgingAmerican]

274. Read his 'Manifesto'

He states that jock types would bully him in school and the girls with them would show no empathy towards him, leading him to believe that women gave sex only as reward for men being evil. Because of this he wanted sex to be outlawed, because he couldn't get any.

Seriously fucked up shit.

[Mrdrboi]

146. Actually he was. This guy wrote a 150 some page life story.

Someone found a link to his story on another forum I frequent. Its pretty scary,its the litteral writings of a mad man.

http://www.scribd.com/embeds/225960813/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&access_key=key-nKS6L3JwbdsgY3zycFSp&show_recommendations=true


There is a part in there where he talked about getting Bullied alot from Jock type people.


That guy was not that bad looking. Its the fucking failed Mental heath places of this damn country.

Had mental help been easly accessed this man could of gotten some help got on some good medication.

Also His family did inform the Police about their sons mental issues but they did nothing. The fucking sad part is they went to his house but dident search it. Had they did they would of found the guns and this fucking mess would of been prevented.

[kcr]

152. I'm more disturbed by the sheer number of men who are empathizing, tbh

It's clear the shooter had mental problems, and this country does not deal with that at all.

[arcane1]

155. He had easy access to mental health services, though they are no guarantee.

And of course the police didn't search his home. They would need a warrant for that. Finding guns in his home would mean nothing if he obtained them legally. I haven't heard yet whether or not that's the case.

In any event, just because one has access to a therapist doesn't mean they will be "cured" of whatever is ailing them. This fool wore $400-dollar sweaters and drove a B<W. He had access to whatever he wanted, except women's bodies.

[kcr]

159. So many problems

I would think that a tip off from his family would have sufficed. And the guns. I guess if he obtained them legally, those victims aren't as dead? That will be a relief for the families, I'm sure.

[arcane1]

161. Sadly, it doesn't work that way :(

[bettyellen]

190. holy crap, from his earliest memories he was jealous and throwing tantrums

he was in some sort of assisted living? wonder if they were able to make sure he was on meds? so fucking scary- all that rage.

[bettyellen]

201. When he crashed a party drunk, picked fights and tried push women off a ledge he complained that

they pushed him off the ledge! Fucking idiot lost his sunglasses and a gold chain in the melee, and appears to think they were stolen by lowlifes, and that he was in the right, after going there all stoned, throwing everyone hateful looks and starting that crap.
He was an envious little tantrum thrower from a very young age, and seemed obsessed with having whatever he saw those around him had. It appears people pegged him as a selfish, angry asshole and tried to avoid him.

[Kaleva]

12. I don't think he said what you think he said

From the post you responded to:

"aided by bitter old men in their 50s"

I took the above to mean that some men in their 50's are bitter and act old. I didn't take it to mean that all men in their 50's are old an bitter.

[villager]

41. But you can be bitter in your 20s, as we learned today in Santa Barbara

It just seemed like broad-brush stereotyping, at first glance...

[MyNameGoesHere]

48. The second and third glance didn't seem much better either. eom.

[villager]

52. it hasn't on this end, either

n/t

[Warpy]

127. Thank you

People who sniff for filth everywhere are sure to find it especially where it doesn't exist.

[IrishAyes]

270. McCarthyists told me in my youth that I should check under my bed every night for communists.

After 60 or more years of vain effort, obviously I haven't found one under there YET. But I keep looking just in case!

I suppose the same holds true for a lot of red flags.

Truth to tell, since beginning the search, I've found some here and there above ground in public and have yet to meet a scary one. Maybe it's just been the luck of the Irish, y'think?

[treestar]

33. Oh come on

I'm in my 50s. If called "old" I don't have a problem with it. I am to someone in their 20s.

[villager]

56. I'm glad that being a "bitter old man in your 50s," is water off a duck's back to you

And I agree it says more about the "sayer" than the person spoken to.

Still -- why are some stereotypes okay around here, if others aren't?

[BainsBane]

59. I don't think you need to be so offended

She said she was older than her 50s.

[villager]

60. Perhaps I don't need to be told what should offend me?

[BainsBane]

62. Fair enough

who am I to interfere with a perfectly good bought of poutrage. Enjoy.

[villager]

63. And who are we to ever interfere with yours?

Glad to see all your double-standards brilliantly intact!

[BainsBane]

64. You mean over mass shootings?

Are you going to compare a remark about MRAs in their 50s to mass murder? Seriously?

[villager]

66. Actually, this thread is about your particular views on "the Men's Right Movement"

...more than it is about the mass shooting. Of course, any stereotyping in the course of that discussion must go uremarked per, I guess, your own set of rules

[BainsBane]

68. This OP is an article from Daily Kos with no additional comment

The topic is a shooting carried out by a man who associated with groups designated by the Southern Poverty law Center as hate groups. You already expressed outrage that I didn't censor the news to protect your delicate sensibilities. Now you're upset that hate groups are exposed for what they are. Too bad. Perhaps you ought to find a new cause to champion? Or you could also talk about how we ought to respect the KKK and Neo-nazi groups because they are the equivalent of MRAs. Whether it is hatred of people of color or women, such organizations proliferate hate. I really don't care that you don't like their being exposed for what they are.

I'll take that double standard anytime. There is no reason hate groups require any respect.

[villager]

70. So, "bitter single woman in her 30's" would be okay by you, if it was used in the "right" thread

right?

Because we don't double-standards, and we need you to illuminate us about the instances where stereotypes are A.O.K. to use...

[BainsBane]

74. Oh, that

Well, I'm in my early 50s too, and I didn't take the post offensively, though it seems the real problem is that MRAs are being exposed for the hate groups they are.

Warpy's post didn't say all men in their 50s were bitter. She observed that bitter men in their 50s seem to find some resonance in MRA ideology. Mr. Scorpio posted a demographic chart with the ages and other attributes (race, etc,,) of MRAs that you can search for if you're interested.

[villager]

76. I'm not here defending MRAs. My point was about the exedient use of stereotypes

...which makes far too many assumptions about age, gender, etc.

I'm a middle-aged white guy, whose political views are essentially the polar opposite of my "demographic."

[kcr]

87. Then what are you so upset about? No one was talking about you.

If you aren't in the MRA movement. It sure comes across as defending them.

[villager]

93. Everything in these discussions comes across as defending them

Which is part of the problem with these "discussions."

I was originally questioning the use of "bitter old men in their 50's," wondering how one's 50's meant "old man" (or "old woman,&quot and what that made someone in their 60's or 70's?

The subthread probably devolved after that -- no surprise there -- as it got conflated with the OP.

The problem is the bandying of stereotypes in the discussion of a presumed bogeyman. The problem with that phrase is that it ascribes certain views to all men in their 50's, for example.

As a guy in my 50's, I took exception to that, was all....

Certainly, people have become quite interestingly up-in-arms about my post noting it...

[kcr]

97. Hmm. Don't think so.

Look, you don't remember when you were younger and thought 50 was old? 50 isn't old to me now, but I sure remember thinking that at one time. Age is subjective, but it's generally understood that 50's isn't exactly regarded as youthful, regardless of gender. I was born in the 70's. I'm not a spring chicken anymore either. My kids and their friends think I'm old. Circle of life.

[villager]

230. well, you are certainly free to keep thinking of yourself as old!

[Chemisse]

206. Clearly you are pretty sensitive about your age.

I found the comment odd too. But it's likely she was clumsy about how she expressed her thoughts, not that she was trying to make a sweeping statement about men in their 50s.

It might be a good idea to just let it go. 50 is not old, and plenty of men in their 50s, my husband included, are neither bitter nor inclined to join male supremacy groups.

[BainsBane]

91. That's not how I read the post

but as I say, there are verified demographic trends that Warpy commented on. You should have a look at that chart. It is more than stereotype. Demographics, however, are not determinative and should not be understood as such. For example, that most white men over a certain age vote Republican doesn't mean all do. The same with MRAs. They are, after all, fringe groups so they are not going to be a majority of any demographic.

[villager]

95. Yes, white men in my age range are absolutely horrendous voters

...taken as a whole.

It's quite an embarrassment.

Doesn't mean we're all "old" or "bitter" though, just because of the calendar.

[BainsBane]

110. No, but don't you think it's a pretty fair assumption

that MRAs are bitter, regardless of age?

[villager]

130. Aha, but the "OP" in this subthread didn't say "regardless of age"

...which was more my point.

The post I was responding to posited that "50's" = "old," meant in a kind of spiritual/emotional sense (because obviously I'm older than a 30 year old).

but bitterness can strike, and paralyze, at any age. As we see all too often.

[kcr]

134. Do you budge into every thread about racism and say, Not Me!!!!!!!!

Hey! I'm white! And I'm not a racists! NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE!!!!

Some middle aged white people need to learn not everything is about them. I say this as a middle aged white person.

[Tsiyu]

262. Aha but we're back to the "you didn't qualify the statement with "some"

AS if one's hand must be held and steered to understand that a statement using the world "men" must always be qualified by "some men."

Because not using that qualifier means we should not even discuss these murders at all. In fact, you are even more cruel than this man who just mass killed people if you don't use that "some."

Ex: Men were eating lunch at the park.

OHNOES! I just claimed ALL men were eating lunch at the park! Misandry! Outrage! Agenda!

ANYTIME we have violence against women, that missing "some" is just so heinous and horrible, we should just stop the entire discussion.

I say this as a 55 year old...who refers to herself as old, frequently.

[IrishAyes]

272. Yes we do. Take a look in the mirror.

[intaglio]

250. Not defending but trying to derail the conversation

and pretty obviously.

Oh, I'm male and way over 50, dislike bitter preferring scrumpy.

[IrishAyes]

271. "the real problem is that MRAs are being exposed for the hate groups they are. "

NAILED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Katashi_itto]

198. Totally agree

This Op is simply to promote an agenda.

[intaglio]

249. Nope, this thread

It is to highlight the foul depths that the MRA movement has sunk. Of course it also emphasizes the stench of the defenders of MRAs

[Warpy]

131. I think your constant posting on this is nothing short of hilarious

Are you denying that some men in their 50s are bitter? Or are you protesting too much and hoping the rest of us won't notice?

Give it a rest. It wasn't a personal attack even if you chose to try to make it one.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

108. I'd love to date a 50-something year old guy;

Problem is, I'm 50-something. Judging from my experiences on dating sites, all I can expect is interest from 70-somethings.

I feel stereotyped, and I don't like it. Do you care that women over 50 get treated like dirt, frequently? I get treated like I'm invisible in real life, now that I'm past the "hawt" age. Do you care?

Or is it only comments that no one but you takes personally that upset you?

[AngryAmish]

140. Just pointing out that the shooter thought he had a right to date certain females

That is all.

[kcr]

149. Be sure to let us know when a 50 year old woman goes postal, k?

Totally the same thing!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

166. sorry, AA, but that isn't at all what the post I replied to

Was talking about. He wasn't even referring to the OP at all.

[840high]

118. If 50 is old then I must have passed on.

[redqueen]

120. Isn't it interesting that a thread about a man who murdered women for not wanting him

is derailed because you said "old men".

[WinkyDink]

123. No; it was "bitter old men in their fifties."

[redqueen]

129. A distinction without a difference. nt

[Warpy]

136. Yes, the thin skinned dears will word jump anything

to try to derail a conversation about their Men's Rights groups.

Someone needs to sit them down and not let them get up until it sinks in that they have NO RIGHTS when it comes to another person's body or life choices, even when that person is "only" a woman.

Then we can send them back to their MRAs for a good pout.

Bless their hearts.

[kcr]

138. But you should have said young, virile 50 year old men

It would have been confusing given the context, to be sure. That's surely the only type in the MRA movement.

[Warpy]

145. Heh, even if it takes investing a fortune

in hair plugs, Viagra and testosterone gel to get them that way...

[BainsBane]

208. Typical

because seven dead women pale in comparison to the more important issue of how aggrieved he feels.

[AZCat]

215. FYI - not all the victims were female.

At least one of the victims was male, but only three of the names have been released so far as I can tell.

link to article

[WinkyDink]

122. Men in their fifties are not "old men" (though they might be "bitter"), as you will one day learn.

[liberalhistorian]

5. Gee, what a surprise, NOT!

The MRA hate groups have their cadre of supporters even on here, which is disgusting. One believes that child support is "male enslavement". Others clutter up threads regarding violence against women with nonsense that men suffer just as much violence at the hands of women, only it's "covered up" by those evil feminazis. I could go on, but it's making me sick enough right now.

[Rozlee]

96. If it's making you sick, I'll pick up the torch for you...

Others will carry on about how they're victimized by women who 'trick' them by getting themselves pregnant. How there are more men in prison than women. How affirmative action has made women outnumber men in colleges. How society is disintegrating because we women are taking away traditionally male jobs and leaving them unemployed and second class citizens. I read a men's rights article once that described men as the new American slaves with women as their masters wielding the whip. Another article on how to keep scheming women from making you a baby daddy. It included advice to quickly flush your condoms down the toilet so the woman wouldn't get a hold of it and inseminate herself with it. Don't get any ideas to artificially impregnate yourself with a wild-eyed misogynist, girlfriends. They're on to us.

[billhicks76]

125. Cruelty Knows No Gender

Women scheme...men scheme. Women are kind....men are kind. This kid probably is hard wired to be angry and upset and was probably a victim of bullying...my question is did any antipsychotic or antidepressants play a roll in this. We are playing with people's brains.

[dem in texas]

10. I watched that Video and he is a prick!

Sitting In his new BMW and thinking he is the greatest gift to women. There is craziness there, but where did it start, it was all about him. So sad to see someone so filled with hate and that cannot turn his thoughts inward and think about why girls didn't like him.

[seaglass]

29. I watched it too and it seemed like he was trying to act - his laugh was like an imitation laugh.

Very disturbing video for both content and behavior.

[yuiyoshida]

39. He was like a BAD ACTOR

portraying a BAD VILLIAN... I think he probably watched way too many movies.

[AnalystInParadise]

11. Well the white guy angle failed

so I guess we have to move on to this........

[BainsBane]

13. You mean Rodger didn't consult you before going on a mass shooting?

to make sure his motives cleared your criteria for events allowed to be spoken about in public? The nerve of him. What kind of world is it when even angry white guys don't stick with the program?

[AnalystInParadise]

16. Who is an angry white guy?

neither myself nor this crazy person. What do you mean?

[bettyellen]

22. this shooter appears to be the epitome of the entitled and angry white guy to me.

His sense of entitlement is huge.

[hack89]

43. He is mixed race

He is, however, an entitled prick.

[bettyellen]

45. yes, his reminiscence of childhood is that everyone is happy and no one has advantages....

he grew up in a bubble. That certainly didn't serve him well.

[AnalystInParadise]

81. Agreed on the prick part

n/t

[bettyellen]

162. he self identified as "white" and complained when an "Indian man" with an old Honda had the nerve to

have a blonde woman as passenger. He assumed from this that they were fucking.
You know that objectification thing that some say doesn't exist, it's that!

[AgingAmerican]

275. Cept he isn't a white guy

...but don't let that stop you.

[bettyellen]

276. he identifies himself as white, and wrote many bigoted things about darker skinned people

...but don't let that stop you.

[AgingAmerican]

279. So does Alan West

...and Ben Carson.

Still doesn't make it so.

[bettyellen]

280. you don't think he has a right to self identify as white? is this the % of blood rule or something

you're trying to invoke here?

[Logical]

18. I saw people defend the mom who shot her 3 kids because....

She was mentally ill, let's see if they defend this guy.

[bettyellen]

51. Obviously they are both mentally ill, and both very cruel people who acted with intent.

Is that even debatable?

[nomorenomore08]

92. I'd be careful about using the word "defend." Trying to parse someone's motive isn't the same thing

although it can be appear to be.

[BainsBane]

225. Some are

Or at least empathizing with this grievances against women. That's in another thread.

[DonViejo]

19. It's now being reported Rodgers had some mental issues...

ABC News is also reporting that Elliot Rodgers was alledgedly being treated by multiple therapists, and according to reports he was a student at Santa Barbara City College.

According to Schifman, questions had been raised about Elliot Rodger’s well being in the last several weeks. His parents had allegedly reported his disturbing YouTube videos to police, ABC News reported. Schifman also said that Elliot had been questioned by police, however did not specify which jurisdiction.

ABC News also reported that a social worker also contacted police about Elliot Rodger last week.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/24/ucsb_shooting_update_suspect_allegedly_son_of_hunger_games_director/

-snip-

According to ABC News: “Schifman said Rodger was diagnosed as being a high-functioning patient with Asperger syndrome and had trouble making friends.”

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/24/ucsb_shooting_update_suspect_allegedly_son_of_hunger_games_director/

[De Leonist]

47. This is the third....maybe fourth...time

I've heard about a shooter having an Autism Spectrum Disorder. Not to beat this drum for the hundredth time here but I also live with the same diagnosis and while it certainly doesn't help in the getting laid department I don't feel the need to go off and kill 14 or more people. I suspect he probably just wasn't taught the necessary coping skills that would have enabled to deal with the problems his diagnosis caused him in an emotionally mature way. But anyway this news is going to cause those of us on the spectrum to be even further misunderstood.

I am now awaiting the inevitable news that somewhere an ignorant repub (Probably Wayne La Piere) will use this as an another excuse to throw those of us with neurological disabilities under the bus, again.

[nomorenomore08]

98. I agree it's a shame, how this contributes to the stigma against those with "differences"

- I don't consider Asperger's a disability per se, despite having some of the traits myself.

[De Leonist]

148. It's not wrong either to consider it as one.

One of the biggest issues with Autism is it's complexity and just how "unique" each person's experience living with it is. Some more recent findings, mainly what's been discovered through autopsies and Brain Imaging, have shown that the neurodevelopment of people on the spectrum can follow significantly divergent paths. These differences in Neurodevelopment can of course lead to difficulties functioning in society, which is the defining factor as to whether something is called a disability or not. Now having said that it doesn't mean that any difference in a person's neurodevelopment compared to the "norm" is going to automatically lead to a disability.

[kcr]

154. Well, then, how about let's not consider it as one?

Given everything you just posted. Particularly your last sentence.

[nomorenomore08]

165. Very true. It does present its own highly variable set of challenges.

For someone like me, being at the mild/hard-to-diagnose end - though not exactly "typical" neurologically either - it's obviously not as much of a problem as it might be for others.

[MADem]

102. It's very difficult to commit a person for therapy against their will.

We don't know what his rich parents tried to do, or didn't try to do, to help this young man. We do know they called the cops and tried to get help for the kid.

I'm sure when he was born they didn't hold him in their arms and say "Let's encourage him to grow up to be a nut full of hate and resentment who shoots people."

I think all these easy theories about what "made" him do what he did are far too simplistic and really dismissive of the serious health issues this individual had. Mental illness is a helluva problem, and this guy had him some. Was he medically noncompliant? Was he blowing off his doctors/therapists? Were his parents so frantic they called the cops on him before he acted out? Signs point to YES.

It's lame to mistake one symptom out of many for the actual disease. IMO.

I'm no Bill Frist, but I think "high functioning Aspergers" was the LEAST of his problems. Time, of course, will tell.

Now that we have this murdering guy among us, and we are all aware of his existence, the important thing to do, first, is get him off the streets so he doesn't kill anyone else. Once that's done maybe we can figure out what caused him to behave the way he did, so we can apply those lessons to other disaffected, angry Youtubers who have to act out their feelings of impotent rage.

Thanks for those links and for injecting a bit of fact into this sad conversation.

[De Leonist]

174. I wasn't trying to be dismissive or simplistic

My comment was based on personal experience from having seen "less severe" versions of that display in real life. In my experience people on the spectrum who seem be as self-absorbed in their anger as he is are often so because proper coping skills weren't emphasized enough in their early years. Talk to HF Autistics born in the eighties or sooner and diagnosed at a young age (which is when most Autistic people end up receiving their diagnosis anymore) and one common thing you find is the LARGE amount of emphasis that was probably put on coping skills in their childhood. One of the coping skills that therapists, parents, and teachers focus a great deal on is fostering an awareness in us of other peoples' possible feelings. Which is not always there at those younger ages like it is in our Neurotypical peers. I've seen what having a lack of that can do to people, even those who are extremely high functioning, and it looks quite a bit how the young man in the video is acting minus the homicidal rage and hatred of women.

[MADem]

178. Some people on the spectrum are sweet as pie, too, engaged in a particular

pursuit that brings them joy, are very bright, and happy. They may miss cues, but they don't really give a shit, and they take guidance from people who help them with socialization skills without pulling out a gun and shooting people.

I know a few people on that spectrum who are in their sixties and seventies, who never got that "socialization" stuff as children, who were always regarded as "oddballs" and "quirky," yet they found their way, adjusted to their environment as best they could, and they're nice folk. Now that more is known about the whole autism-Aspergers business, even they are sufficiently self-aware to realize that they see things differently and they're pleased that their differences are more understood.

Personality plays a big role in how well people cope, and I wouldn't rule out the influence of other far more serious diagnoses (the Aspergers being the LEAST of this kid's problems, is my suspicion, not to "go Frist" on this conversation) as contributors to this unhappy event. This guy's intense dissatisfaction with life wasn't simply a consequence of his being "on the spectrum," there were many, MANY other issues contributing to this tragedy, anything and everything from other medical issues, to unhealthy peer associations (bullying, mocking, e.g.).

[De Leonist]

273. Point taken however.....

You really shouldn't dismiss Socialization like that. What you may not realize is just how many of us on the spectrum wouldn't be able to function as well as we do without it. While I acknowledge that I did jump the gun with my suggestion many of my generation of Aspies and Auties and younger are now able to function in society far better than if they had been born 10 or 15 yrs earlier. Had I been born in the sixties instead of the eighties I'm fairly confident I'd have ended up institutionalized because most schools did not offer the interventions they did in the late 80s and 90s.

[MADem]

277. Not all socialization is "deliberate" or "taught."

There are a whole cadre of people who managed to acquire social skills well before teaching them to people who don't "get it" naturally became a thing. It was a more organic process but just because it was not formalized didn't mean that it did not exist. That's my point, in essence.

Back in the day, it may have been something as simple as a nun rapping a kid on the knuckles and telling 'em "You don't behave like that! Do THIS, not THAT--is that CLEAR?" Now, that's a bit of negative reinforcement but it's reinforcement nonetheless (FWIW I am not an advocate of negative reinforcement so let me make that clear, as well). It might have been a sibling saying "Nooo, sonny--don't do it that way, it will make the teacher mad -- you have to do it this way!!!" and "Sonny, make sure you say this to Granny, but never say THAT--it will hurt her feelings!"

Nowadays, children have FAR fewer siblings and thus they have fewer role models. Today, a family of three kids is "large." A half century ago, that was an average to small family, and a century ago, those kids were like ONLY children! Families of a half dozen kids were par for the course, and "Cheaper by the dozen" wasn't uncommon out on the farms.

Children also had fewer amusements and shorter childhoods back in the day. Today they have lots of amusements and a very long childhood that continues for some into the mid-twenties. They also have more distractions such as television and computers that isolate them.

In the old days children amused themselves and they did it "outside" in groups great and small, by and large. Siblings did not have an option but to care for the younger ones, the parents insisted on it. Nowadays children do not have a sibling or five who will drag them along with the group and show them, by repetition and example, how to behave. They also don't have the protection of an older sibling who will beat the living crap out of anyone who bullies them. Much of socialization used to be simply monkey see, monkey do, and kids who got a teacher who was sharp enough to perceive that this one or that one learned a bit differently was fortunate.

This is not one of those "Oh, the 'old days' were better" posts, but the fact is they weren't necessarily always as awful as some might think. Kids who were socialized, however so inarticulately and clumsily and amateurishly within their peer group, often turned out ok. Odds are they got more hours of "therapy," even if it was less focused and from peer "therapists," than children do today.

In sum, I am not dismissing socialization. I'm just suggesting that there's more than one way to get there. Schools today are so focused on teaching to tests that they sacrifice things like art, gym class, music and recess--all "play" activities where a lot of socialization is learned, not from teachers, so much, as peers.

The larger point, though, is I don't think "being on the spectrum" is what caused this guy to go on a murder rampage. If anything, I'd say his medical noncompliance/failure to stick to his antipsychotic protocol was what lit his fuse.

[840high]

121. Thanks.

[stranger81]

20. After watching several of his youtube videos now,

I think it's fair to say that his primary influence was a strong dose of crazy. Seriously, seriously crazy. This guy simply oozes with sociopath.

** shudders **

[nomorenomore08]

101. Yes, very likely someone with strong sociopathic/psychopathic traits. Nothing to do with autism. n/t

[kcr]

157. Nope, but of course, that won't stop many people. Ugh. n/t

[shanti]

182. well, it is possible

for a person to have a dual-diagnosis.

[nomorenomore08]

185. Sure. But antisocial personality disorder seems a far more likely factor than Asperger's. n/t

[TeamPooka]

21. Since when does "the perfect gentleman" shoot women? nt

[AverageJoe90]

28. I'm sure that you and I both agree that......such a gentleman DOES NOT. EVER. nt

[951-Riverside]

23. What the f*ck?

I thought the men's rights movement was about angry potbelly dads who want full custody of their kids not some rich spoiled 100lb loser who decided to gun down 14 people because he wasnt wasn't getting any.

I could understand this position if he was Scott Dekraai who murdered his ex-wife and 9 other people in a salon partially over a custody dispute but I think DailyKos is way off the mark here. I don't see the correlation before some young failed "pick up artist" and the so-called "mens rights movement".

[AverageJoe90]

27. Maybe so. But it doesn't dent the validity of the article, though, regardless of her intentions.

There IS a real problem with misogyny in the so-called "Men's Movement".....in fact, it was practically built on such!

[nomorenomore08]

103. This post, I agree with 100%. The "movement" is built on resentment and fear of an entire gender.

[BainsBane]

137. What I find astounding is the hidden poster's assumption

that opposition to MRA groups equates to hating men. I oppose the KKK. Does that mean I hate white people? Hardly.

[nomorenomore08]

141. The exaggerated persecution complex some people have is astonishing.

Makes me think they've never experienced real discrimination in their lives, to be so petty and whiny.

[arcane1]

31. BainsBane is not who wrote the OP for Kos n/t

[BainsBane]

35. But I commited the crime

Of posting it here and not agreeing to censor the news of the day in order to appease the easily aggrieved.

[BainsBane]

32. Actually most MRAs are young, under 30

Last edited Sat May 24, 2014, 05:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Mr. Scorpio (I think it was him) posted a thread with demographic info.
I believe it initially started as concern over bias against men in custody battles, but has gone far beyond that into a full-fledged hate movement, and MRA groups are designated as such by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[nomorenomore08]

105. "...but has gone far beyond that into a full-fledged hate movement."

Which is a fact we need to keep repeating over and over, nay-sayers be damned.

[Katashi_itto]

234. There is no correlation. OP has an agenda. MRAs aren't the nicest bunch, but this is

just perpetuating falsehoods to support certain stereotypes the OP wants out there.

[BainsBane]

235. It's an article from Daily Kos

FFS. Are we supposed to censor the news because you can't handle it? What's Daily Kos' agenda?

[Katashi_itto]

236. Yours is the interesting agenda. Especially when it's been pointed out repeatedly it's false.

[BainsBane]

237. NBC news shares the same agenda

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isla-vista-rampage/california-gunmans-apparent-manifesto-details-hatred-all-women-n113956

[Katashi_itto]

238. His hatred of women is obvious. Dissembling as usual.

[BainsBane]

239. No. The agenda is yours

This OP is an article from Daily Kos. You somehow think your personal views of me relevant. They are not. You are pissed off that I posted this story. Too fucking bad. This interpretation is all over the web. You don't like the fact that MRAs are exposed for the hate mongers they are. I'd say that is entirely your problem, and a pretty serious one. I will denounce every hate group, whether White Supremacists or MRAs. I make no apologies for that.

Another publication that discusses his affiliation with MRA groups, what you call my "agenda."
http://www.ibtimes.com/elliot-rodger-ucsb-shooter-internet-history-reveals-mens-rights-movement-beliefs-wake-mass-1589849

[Katashi_itto]

240. Lol, telling me what my are motives now. You've been cited repeatedly that the MRA is not a hate

group, as rotten as they are, but that doesn't jib with your version of reality.

[BainsBane]

241. Five pages of articles

on Google News telling this story you think I have created in order to promote "my agenda." https://www.google.com/#q=elliot+rodger+men's+rights&tbm=nws

MRA groups are based on misogyny. Misogyny by definition is hatred for women. Now I understand some feel hating women is just an opinion. I disagree. It is an opinion based on hatred and male supremacy. It is no different from white supremacists, only they target women as opposed to people of color. Anyone can tell as much by looking at the sites. They have spawned a series of killings. This is only the most recent one. The guy in Norway was another.

[Katashi_itto]

242. You just like making things up don't you? Now according to you I am censoring stuff.

You just dwell in your own reality don't you? A place where your the perpetual victim.

Whatever the case, as lousy as they are, they are not on the SPLC's hate group list as you posit.

Always busy shopping to find something to jury someone on who disagrees with you.

Knowing your motives, I will not engage your comments further on this thread.

[intaglio]

251. You, again, are trying to derail the conversation

Funny, anyone would think you didn't want the proven link to the MRA movement discussed.

[Tsiyu]

263. It's funny that when an MRA afficianado goes out and in cold blood murders people

you are more outraged that MRA is being criticized.

Tells everyone what YOUR agenda is.

No doubt to me.

People's lives lost in cold blooded murder? Meh

This absolutely PALES in comparison in anyone saying anything bad about MRA groups.

The latter is FAR more tragic, eh?

This is sickening as hell.

[Katashi_itto]

264. Lol! Just making it up as you go :)

But I understand, you need adversaries

[Tsiyu]

266. Sorry, your own words are the tell here

You show your agenda plain as day.

Death of seven people in cold blood? Meh.

Criticizing MRA groups: OUTRAGE!!!!!


You couldn't be more obvious.

[AverageJoe90]

25. *Sigh*. I was afraid something like this would happen one of these days.

And now, it's come to pass. Honestly, FUCK the misogynist "Men's Rights" (bowel) movement and everything they've come to stand for.

[nomorenomore08]

106. +a whole fucking lot

[bravenak]

278. Me too.

See how i can agree with you and be friends. I like it.

[AverageJoe90]

281. I suppose so. =)

[NickB79]

30. He seems to be talking shit about MRA's, not praising them

"On the day of retribution I will enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB, and I will slaughter every single spoiled stuck up blonde slut I see inside there. All those girls that I've desired so much, they would have all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them. While they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes. I'll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one. The true Alpha Male."
The true Alpha Male. What those who call themselves the Mens Rights Movement aspire to be. .

He clearly has immense anger towards women, but also a good deal of anger towards the "obnoxious brutes" that the women he wanted to date chose over him. He appears to be equating these men who have bested him in the dating world (the so-called Alpha males) with the MRA, because he says he will become the true, superior Alpha male by use of force.

It's still all sick as fuck, but it doesn't sound from that paragraph that he's idolizing the MRA movement. Rather, I almost get the sense he's throwing up his hands and saying "fine, I'll become what I hate."

[BainsBane]

34. If you read the article

it says he was a subscriber to a number of MRA sites. He uses their language, indicating he bought into their ideology.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

213. if I am understanding correctly Yes, HE accepted them but THEY rejected him.

In his psychotic little brain he felt Rejection from everyone. It does not make sense to us Baines because we are sane.

[arcane1]

36. "today at my college I saw this short, ugly Indian guy driving a Honda civic"

"and he had a hot blonde girl in his passenger seat. What on earth is up with that?!?!? I would climb mount Everest 10 times just to have a girl like that with me. I drive a BMW coupe and I've struggled all my life to get a girlfriend. What's wrong with this world?

Does anyone else get disturbed and offended when you see sights like this? Someone make sense of this ridiculousness. "


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.bodybuilding.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D161988053



Doesn't seem to be describing an "alpha male" in that post.

[Ash_F]

216. He complained about other men being 'brutes', but he sounds like a bully himself.

Glad the people on the forum tried to set him straight. Too bad it wasn't enough.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. In his demented mind that made sense. Yes. Sounds crazy to the rational person but, insane people

do not think rationally. I think you are on to something there.

[bettyellen]

57. He imagines those other guys are brutes, because of course, a woman can't be happier w/ someone else

MRAs do not actually respect women's autonomy at all.
A BMW and a nice diner, and a woman owes him, if not- he has been used and abused. he is totally aligned with MRA thinking- all that entitled bullshit. If I have X and do why, sex should be on the menu. Sad groups like that can be a haven for sick people.

[intaglio]

245. He was a member of an anti-PUA site

Made up of MRAs who have been taken for a ride by the PUA scam artists (like Roosh)

He was a member of several MRA sites and agreed with much of what they said

He was an MRA

[davidn3600]

256. OK. He's MRA.... and Valerie Solanas was a feminist... what's your point?

Every group of people has their share of crazies.

[intaglio]

257. Valerie Solanas - 1 targeted assassination and founder of her own fantasy

This guy and all the others ...

Nice derail attempt plus false equivalence ... Do you think men are horribly oppressed as well?

[BainsBane]

258. Had to reach back half a century for that one.

Here's the key difference: The MRA movement IS crazy.

[kelliekat44]

46. Well, for one thing..the girls turning him down saw something that proved to be evil. nt

[BainsBane]

55. Yep. The psycho-killer vibe

Not a turn-on for most women.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

50. What does being a pickup artist have to do with men's rights?

Besides the stupid idea there are men's rights, or women's rights, or black, or white, or yellow rights... There are only individual rights.

Sounds like he was just a psycho looking for a rationalization for his failure to socialize well with women.

[BainsBane]

53. The PUA groups are affiliated with Men's Rights Groups

There are a whole series of different Men's Rights Groups, different off-shoots and different takes on the ideology. On one end you have the "grass eaters" or Going Your Own Way, straight guys who eschew contact with women. On the other end you have the Pick Up Artists movement, guys who think of themselves as "nice guys," but who try to become more "alpha male" in order to have greater success with women. MRA ideology in general is rationalization for their own perceived failings in life.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

69. Woah... sweeping generalizations are exactly the murders issue.

His idea that all women are bad because the one's he encountered wouldn't pay attention to him is what led him to the psychotic behavior to start with.

Making more sweeping generalizations about groups hardly improves the issue. i.e. Is there any evidence for the blanket statement "MRA ideology in general is rationalization for their own perceived failings in life."

How would one even start to objectively determine such a thing? That sounds more like someone with an axe to grind than any scientific based determination.

It also dilutes the responsibility for the actions from the individual and spreads it from him, over to others. I personally, hold him completely accountable for his actions. MRA ideology doesn't make anyone murder anymore than violent video games make people go on shooting sprees.

[BainsBane]

71. Nor does neo-Nazi ideology

but the fact is they are still hate groups as designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center and promote ideologies based on hatred.

It is a fact that PUAs are part of the Men's Right's movement.

He alone is responsible, but when organizations promote hatred they can hardly be surprised when their members take their ideologies seriously. MRAs are the equivalent of the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups. Those groups are protected by the First Amendment, as are all hate groups, but the fact is their ideology promotes hatred and murder. That doesn't make them criminally culpable, but nor does it diminish the hatred those groups promote.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

75. Ok, so now we have three declarative statements to confirm.

1. MRA ideology in general is rationalization for their own perceived failings in life.
2. It is a fact that PUAs are part of the Men's Right's movement.
3. "but when <these> organizations promote hatred"

And a question:
What specifically IS Neo-Nazi ideology?

Do you have any evidence at all for any of those statements or an answer to the question?

[BainsBane]

85. SPLC

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

You can also find everything you need to know about white supremacists at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I'm done here.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

164. Maybe I should have been more specific.

Do you have any evidence for all the statements your making? But, if your going to base your argument on this page...

1. THE CLAIM Men’s rights activists often insist that men are victimized by sex crimes and abuse just as much as women are, if not more.
A. "often" - What constitutes often?
B. Which MR activists? ALL of them!?
C. The Wikipedia article on the topic references a number of studies, including a meta-analysis John Archer from the Department of Psychology, University of Central Lancashire, UK, who writes:

The present analyses indicate that men are among those who are likely to be on the receiving end of acts of physical aggression.[7] The extent to which this involves mutual combat or the male equivalent to "battered women" is at present unresolved. Both situations are causes for concern. Straus (1997) has warned of the dangers involved—especially for women—when physical aggression becomes a routine response to relationship conflict. "Battered men"—those subjected to systematic and prolonged violence—are likely to suffer physical and psychological consequences, together with specific problems associated with a lack of recognition of their plight (George and George, 1998). Seeking to address these problems need not detract from continuing to address the problem of "battered women."[35]

Is this study correct? It should require a great deal of examination by experts in scientific methodology to assess. I could be wrong, but I doubt you and I would qualify for the task.

2. THE CLAIM In another effort to show that men are discriminated against, many men’s rights activists assert that women attack men just as much as men attack women, if not more.
A. Is this true? Again, Wikipedia shows numerous studies both for and against - depending on the page visited.

3. THE CLAIM Close to half or even more of the sexual assaults reported by women never occurred.
A. Is this true? Again, Wikipedia lists a number of studies - all ranging from 2% to 90%. If you are going to base your beliefs on one of these, you would have to answer to why you picked that one.

As to your other statements...
----------------
1. MRA ideology in general is rationalization for their own perceived failings in life. -- No evidence presented.
2. It is a fact that PUAs are part of the Men's Right's movement. -- again, no evidence presented.
3. "but when <these> organizations promote hatred" -- again, no evidence presented.

And a question:
What specifically IS Neo-Nazi ideology? -- No response.
-----------------

Look... I'm just playing devils advocate here - but you really should be more fact oriented when discussing these issues. If your going to make declarative statements, then at least be prepared to defend them when challenged. Without factual support, your statements can appear emotional, biased, and non-objective - and even with facts, one must be careful to not cherry pick only the bits of the data that supports one's argument, but the totality of data. This is very difficult to do, especially so with emotional topics such as this one, which is why one must be extra-determined to drive in the spikes of logic instead of allowing one to be swept away with internal emotional biases.

[YoungDemCA]

170. Three uses of the word "emotional" as a pejorative while arguing with a feminist

Yeah, you're not fooling anyone here.

[Laffy Kat]

211. Yes! + 1000. Thank you. nt

[bettyellen]

231. emotional= laughing at his bullshit

[YoungDemCA]

135. Why are you defending *any* of these groups?

nt

[TampaAnimusVortex]

167. You are mistaken...

If you see any statements I have made supporting or denigrating any groups, could you please point them out?

[YoungDemCA]

171. You seem awfully defensive re: the MRA issue

Maybe it's just me, but I've seen these tactics before in attempts to derail conversations about male sexual entitlement and how it negatively affects women, so I have little patience on this issue.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

173. Your again mistaken...

You continue to make statements without evidence.

1. "You seem awfully defensive re: the MRA issue" -Please note the statement you are referring to here.
2. If you see any statements I have made supporting or denigrating any groups. -- unanswered.

[BainsBane]

196. Anytime someone is as opaque as you are about their positions on an issue

is a major red flag for me.

The evidence is in your own posts. But aside from the issue, your rhetorical games are disingenuous and boring.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

204. I see how it works.

No evidence resorts to the standard ad hominem attacks. Generally when that point is reached, one can conclude the other side has conceded the argument - in this case, due to lack of evidence to support one's statements.

End of line...

[BainsBane]

212. That hate groups like MRAs and Neo-Nazis are bad?

You think I've conceded that? Hell no. You argue the opposite all you want.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

218. No. Those would be a red herrings...

The points you are conceding due to lack of evidence are:

1. "You seem awfully defensive re: the MRA issue" -Please note the statement you are referring to here.
2. If you see any statements I have made supporting or denigrating any groups.

You are free to open a new line of discourse on the matter if you wish. Proceed.

[BainsBane]

222. That's not how you started this subthread

Your games bore me. If you don't care enough to express your views directly, why should I care enough to bother discussing anything with you?

[intaglio]

246. Why do we think you are defending MRAs?

Well apart from the fact you are attempting to set up "Tu Quoque" fallacy and trying to derail the conversation by using a variant of the Gish Gallop, there is your general snark.

[BainsBane]

255. It's not just you

This is just a particularly tedious variant of them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

214. On account of they all have penises. See? QED. n/t

[BainsBane]

217. You know who else have penises?

Millions of smart, intelligent and secure men who don't feel themselves oppressed by the awful women of America.

[bettyellen]

54. there is a lot of cross over in the groups- both pretty much hate women and blame them for their own

miserable lives. The PUAs focus on using scripts and tactics to trick women into liking them enough to have sex with them, and then they hate the women for falling for their shit. A lot of the MRAs try the PUA route if they don't have the resources to find themselves a nice empoverished foreign woman to purchase/ marry.

[YoungDemCA]

144. That's the funny thing

Well, not "funny", but truly remarkable, all the less.

They hate women, but they still want to fuck them. That attitude goes hand in hand with objectification.

[bettyellen]

160. yes, it goes with objecification because they long for the days when we were property

to be used and discarded. Did you see some of the crap he posted at a PUA site:


This is why feminism must be destroyed. Humanity is devolving into primitive animals.

It must be accepted, but not embraced. Human society should never be allowed to degenerate to such brutality. The problem is women, they are primitive in nature and incapable thinking rationally. If they are allowed to choose who to breed with, humanity will never advance. Look at civilizations over 100 years ago. In a way they were much more civilized, simply because women were restricted and controlled. It was a much better world to live in.

Eventually these frustrated men won't be able to take it anymore and will explode in rage and fury, and the female population will suffer the consequences, as they rightfully deserve. Once women are brought to their knees, things can be reformed. The sooner this happens, the better.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

181. Couple of questions on this post.

1. "The PUAs focus on using scripts and tactics to trick women into liking them".
A. Is this different than women's use of makeup, high heels, various types of dress to manipulate men into liking them?
Evidence on this topic
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/hairstyles-beauty/


2. "they hate the women for falling for their shit"
A. Who raised most of these men/boys to gain this behavior? Most males encounter predominately female authority figures the first 10 years of their life (Short of the principle of a school occasionally) do they not? Are not most teachers of younger children female? How many hours per day are they exposed to females vs males in those formative years?

[bettyellen]

195. his manifesto says he learned this from his peers- he was desperate to be a "cool" kid and tried to

do what they did, including get popular with the girls. That is where he learned ths behavior. He was constantly angered that anyone had anything he did not have. He mimiced other boys hs whole life. So, that's where that came from.

Cosmopolitan represents what to you, exactly? And trash like Maxim? Who gives a shit, really, LOL. Men wear various kinds of dress, buy cars and do all sorts of stupid shit to look attractive too. And people can actually see that you have groomed (or not) and wear, and own things have all sorts of feelings about it. Good bad or indifferent, humans ornament themselves- if you are fooled by it- you are a fucking idiot.

You seem to be saying that having so little respect for the opposite sex that faking other personalities, and lying or trying hypnosis on people, to trick them into thinking you are worthy of sex is something normal and mainstream that a lot of people do? Sorry- only the most pathetic assholes do that.

Hope this helped!

[TampaAnimusVortex]

203. Youll have to produce real information.

I'm looking at his manifesto now. Could you please copy over the passage where he states he learned to hate women from his peers as you stated?

"You seem to be saying that having so little respect for the opposite sex that faking other personalities, and lying or trying hypnosis on people, to trick them into thinking you are worthy of sex is something normal and mainstream that a lot of people do?"

Deception lies at the heart of the entire beauty industry, which spends an estimated 426 billion dollars per year. The entire point of the industry is to present a false picture from reality.

Lipstick? Are you lips really that red?
Blush and other skin cosmetics? Is your skin really blemish free and without wrinkles?
Hair coloring? - I wont even bother...
High heels? - Why try to appear taller than you are?

http://www.fashinvest.com/world-spends-billions-beautiful-big-beauty-industry/

Lying about what you look like is not only mainstream... it's one of the largest industries on the planet. It's a social and evolutionary adaption designed to replicate DNA, just like men's various tactics on their side.

http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2010/03/160448,xcitefun-makeup-07.jpg
Random picture picked to illustrate the deceptive nature of makeup.

[bettyellen]

205. LOL, you seem to have me confused with your manservant. LOL. And I guess you are right- if you only

care about what a person looks like on the outside, you might be a little confused or disappointed after seeing the makeup removed. But grownups can usually see past all that. And people who aren't fucking idiots.

But if the person has faked another personality, or told you outright lies- you think that's the same as lipstick LOL, really? I guess if you only care about the package they come in, you might think lipstick is a big deal. If you do, you have the option of trying to meet one of many nice women who wear none. See how that works? I would think the person faking a personality it is a complete fucking sociopath. Lipstick is fun! It wears off in a few hours? If you're lucky nd get to the morning, you can see what's what a reassess the situation. Psychos who lie hurt you and can stalk for years, endangering your happiness and health. Not the same thing even remotely.

Hope that helps- and good luck to you! You're really going to need it.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

219. Which statements are incorrect?

I posited that deception is part and parcel of attracting a mate generally, both by women and men - in the mainstream. None of your statements counter my statement or really even rise to the level of a real argument. It seems more of a frothing emotional ranting. Please confine your statements to logic and forgo the emotionalism, ad hominems, appeals to authority or majority, or the usual cacophony of rhetorical noise rife with such displays.

End of line...

[bettyellen]

229. the one where you imagine that this PUA shit is normal. or all "deceptions" equal. YAWN.

bullshit and BULLSHIT.

[Harmony Blue]

179. Good post

sometimes people feel more comfortable separating the world into categories instead of looking at the entire picture.

[ismnotwasm]

58. There are designated hate groups

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

Alcuin

Boycott American Women

The Counter Feminist

The False Rape Society

In Mala Fide

MarkyMark’s Thoughts

MensActivism

Reddit: Mens Rights

RooshV

SAVE Services

The Spearhead

A Voice for Men

These are the ones listed. I'm sure there are more.

[BainsBane]

61. The Red Pill Reddit ought to be up there

[ismnotwasm]

189. Yup

Maybe the "men's rights" reddit includes all sub categories

[AZCat]

220. I think the only one of those I've heard of is Reddit...

and I wasn't aware they had a "Men's Rights" section. I know there's value to freedom of access to the internet, but sometimes I think it provides a little too much fertile soil for the seriously jacked-up members of society to commiserate and collaborate.

[BainsBane]

243. The worst part of it is their ideas are spreading

and we even see them repeated on this site.

[Little Star]

65. k&r

[etherealtruth]

72. So you do not believe that society should adress it's ills when confronted by them?

I certainly wish we would address these things prior to a crisis or tragedy ...is that what you mean?

Hopefully, you do not feel that a tragedy sparking action and change to prevent another tragedy is a bad thing?

[bravenak]

79. I bet it takes less than an hour.

Before i see NR.

[Prophet 451]

73. Do we know he was influenced by MRAs

or is it possible he independently arrived at the same delusion?

[BainsBane]

78. Yes, the article demonstrates his affiliation with those groups

Go to Daily Kos and read it.

[arcane1]

199. He mentions them in his screed too. See pages 117/118:

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/225960813?access_key=key-nKS6L3JwbdsgY3zycFSp&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

(can't copy/paste from that site, and too lazy to type )

[IronLionZion]

77. Right, I think the problems here are mental illness, uncontrollable hatred,

resentment, jealousy, entitlement, etc. The desire to hurt or kill someone is a serious problem in our country.

Anything else is probably being spun and manipulated for some political agenda.

It looks like he was seeing therapists and social workers and a number of people have contacted police that he may be dangerous in regards to his angry videos. Somebody failed to heed these warnings.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/killed-mass-murder-shooting-uc-santa-barbara/story?id=23853918

[dsc]

80. One thing to note

when the shooting at the Family Research Council happened it would up that the shooter had ties to the HRC. I think the groups he was involved in should get a chance to disown him.

[seveneyes]

84. There is but one person responsible for this inexcusable killing spree

That would be the person that pulled the trigger. He most likely was blaming someone other than himself for his actions and problems making it through life.

[bettyellen]

107. he was blaming feminists for giving women choices who to have sex with:

Some quotes from a PUA site he visited:


This is why feminism must be destroyed. Humanity is devolving into primitive animals.

It must be accepted, but not embraced. Human society should never be allowed to degenerate to such brutality. The problem is women, they are primitive in nature and incapable thinking rationally. If they are allowed to choose who to breed with, humanity will never advance. Look at civilizations over 100 years ago. In a way they were much more civilized, simply because women were restricted and controlled. It was a much better world to live in.

Eventually these frustrated men won't be able to take it anymore and will explode in rage and fury, and the female population will suffer the consequences, as they rightfully deserve. Once women are brought to their knees, things can be reformed. The sooner this happens, the better.

[BainsBane]

115. If women are "allowed to choose who to breed with, humanity will never advance"

That really says it all.

[stone space]

151. Somebody gave him a gun, or was careless enough to let him steal it. (nt)

[Aristus]

104. Yeah. Don't know why women weren't throwing themselves at that loser...

[nomorenomore08]

109. How the fuck does a guy work himself up to this kind of wholesale destruction?

I've been as dismal a failure in the "dating game" as anyone I know, yet it would never occur to me in a million years, to take out my aggressions on random strangers (or anyone other than myself, really).

[BainsBane]

112. Turns out daddy is a Hollywood director

Assistant Director on Hunger Games. Or so I read on Discussionist.

[nomorenomore08]

132. Sheltered upbringing + obvious psychological problems + "MRA" sense of victimization.

Seems like a perfect recipe for disaster, in this case.

[DonCoquixote]

111. I dare not look

but I bet people will gild this martyr with laurels over at Discussionist. (sarcasm)

[BainsBane]

114. Someone told me they are

Though I haven't seen it myself.

[PADemD]

113. Only blondes?

Maybe if he had asked brunettes and/or redheads for dates, he might have gotten a girlfriend. But then, they wouldn't have liked his personality, too.

[WinkyDink]

126. He liked blondes. Everybody has preferences.

[dawg]

124. So sad.

I watched the killer's video. He was a very messed-up young man.

We aren't entitled to sex.

There's no reason for a young man to be ashamed or enraged because he is still a virgin.

With very few exceptions, there are plenty of people who would be willing to date you. If you don't ask them out, don't be angry because you aren't dating them. If you do ask them out, and get lots of rejections, then maybe you need to lower your physical standards a little. We can all find someone. We can't all find a supermodel.

Sex isn't a reward. It's supposed to be something special between two people who are in love (just my old-fashioned opinion), but society has turned it into a prize; a game; an accomplishment; a mark of status.

[raccoon]

133. What an arrogant, entitled POS little creep. nt

[YoungDemCA]

139. Careful. You might hurt the delicate sensibilities of the REAL MEN

The TOUGH, ALPHA MALES, the Nice Guys (TM) who wonder why they can't get laid, while blaming women for their own issues.

How dare you offend the sensibilities of these poor, oppressed "true gentlemen", who are being persecuted by the "creep-shamers" and the "femiNazis."

The injustice of it all!!!!!!!

[smallcat88]

142. Never heard of

the Men's Rights Movement before today. Sounds like another attempt to take us back to the 19th century. They're talking right now on the news about this kid's 'manifesto'; sounds like the MRM was just a symptom of some deep psychological problems. Maybe they should check out anybody else in this backward club. But no, checking them out beforehand probably violates their rights.

Getting really tired of hearing about the rights of those who commit crimes while ignoring the rights of their victims. Probable cause should count for something, there were some really obvious warning signs here. We need to come up with a better system for detecting violent tendencies about to explode.

[YoungDemCA]

172. We live in a society where predators are rewarded and victims are punished

Pretty sick.

[Helen Borg]

143. Something is odd...

Don't you find his mutliple laughs odd and staged? Like the villain in a Batman movie?

[BainsBane]

147. It is odd

You're right bout that. It's almost like he's playing a part. He did kill a bunch of people though. His father his a Hollywood director, so that may have an influence.

[smallcat88]

158. Yes

I said on another thread on this same story that his evil chuckle sounded like a cartoon villain. Really weird.

[Raine1967]

150. Bottom line: He's a POS for blaming all "girls" for his not being able

to find a meaningful relationship. I'm sorry he's dead. I truly am. I find it disgusting for someone to blame innocent victims, in this case, every woman who didn't find him so handsome and romantic; Deep and dark and mysterious blah blah blah that he felt he was justified in murdering innocent people to his personal delusions.

I wish he could have lived to see the error of his thought process.

IF he wanted sex, he could have gotten laid. If he wanted a relationship he could have realized that women aren't subjects. IF he wanted anything at all in this world, he could have enlightened himself. Life isn;t always fair, but this guy wanted to be a martyr.

Instead, IMO, he will be known as a murderous self serving selfish asshole who decided that his life was so important (much more important than his victims and his hopeful love conquests that never appeared) that he had to kill people to make them pay attention to him.

I really wish he was still alive to see the damage his ego did to the victims and their families. I feel bad for his family as well.

But hey… Guns. He shot people because he wasn't loved enough by women he wanted or something.

Sickening.

[AverageJoe90]

180. This. Just this. nt

[one_voice]

210. I always enjoy reading your post...

you have a way with words. You get to the heart of things, it's always about what's important, leaving out agenda driven nonsense, especially in a situation as sad and horrific as this. Agendas have no place this soon after this tragedy.

Thank you for your comments. I hope to continue reading them and learning from them.

[caseymoz]

153. What a degenerate, delusional idiot.

"I want sex, or I'll kill some random strangers?" What a narcissist.

He fell a little short of getting revenge on all of them, by several billion. Taking it out on surprised random strangers isn't getting revenge; it's throwing a tantrum while armed. He reached puberty far too soon. He still had a mentality of an eight-year-old.

He certainly showed why should have been a virgin, and why he would've likely not had sex for another 22 years. Maybe the men who attract women are the ones who don't think of going on spoiled, murderous rampages because over it.

Whoever those women were who turned him down throughout his whole life, I applaud them.

[Ash_F]

168. This guy seems almost like a parody.

But he was serious wasn't he? Very sad.

[davidn3600]

175. Sometimes a loon is just a loon

One of my pet-peeves of DU is every time someone does something crazy we have to try to link them to a group we don't like.

Just like everyone here was absolutely positive the Boston bombings were done by a Tea Partier. I even remember when the FBI released the photos... people here made posts "LOOK! THEY ARE WHITE! THEY MUST BE REPUBLICANS!"

Or Gabby Giffords shooter was a radical right winger....of course we find out Laughner was a schizophrenic nut.

How about the post here about the woman who killed her 3 kids and the OP said it must have been because the woman must have been raped in the military.

Why are we so quick jump to conclusions when we don't have any information?

Seriously is it that difficult to understand that not everything has a link to some conspiracy? Sometimes people just snap and loose their minds. Sometimes a loon is just a loon.

[BainsBane]

177. You would have information if you actually bothered to read the article

[davidn3600]

187. This author of the article is more concerned about their own agenda than the truth

This kid had mental problems...very serious ones. From the limited amount of research I've done it seems he had some sort of social disorder. It's likely he had some weird delusions and paranoia going on. He then sought out any persons or groups that he felt he could identify with. But it is possible he was even forming delusions about what those people were telling him, too.

The article is making a suggestion that the people he was associating with had radicalized him, provoked him, and used him to commit violence against women. That's ridiculous. MRAs may have hatred going on in their ranks but they are not a terrorist organization.

Your article is basically making a "guilt by association" argument. And those are not always true. We need more information. The article is incredibly biased. And this is why no other legitimate media outlet is reporting this link right now.

[BainsBane]

191. MRA ideology is based on hatred

It's a basic fact, just as white supremacy is based on hatred. Their members don't acknowledge it, anymore than Klansmen admit to being racist. That denial, however, does not change the nature of the ideology they espouse.

[LanternWaste]

282. I'd think that also accurately applies to posters who subtly attempt to minimize, or even deny the e

" This author of the article is more concerned about their own agenda than the truth.."

I'd think that also accurately applies to posters who subtly attempt to minimize, or even deny the effect of the collective MRA style philosophy on the shooter while inflating every other influence.

[intaglio]

247. The shooter linked himself to those groups

and was an active member of several. Now about jumping to conclusions ...

[BainsBane]

248. some insist on ignoring

the evidence the killer himself left. Interested how many are determined to defend the good name of MRAs.

[standingtall]

192. He could've got a girl friend

This dude was a narcissist. Thought the world revolved around him and couldn't handle rejection. Everyone gets rejected. If he was persistent enough he would've gotten a girlfriend even being the jerk he was. He had money. If wanted sex so bad? Why didn't he just go get a hooker? Dad was film director and his step mom an actor. He didn't live in reality. To him live was probably like a movie.

[sendero]

254. In listening...

.. to his screed that is exactly the feeling I came away with.

All of his complaints about how his life became difficult from puberty, unfulfilled wishes, etc, could have been written by myself or any number of other teens/young men. It never occurred to me that the answer was killing people or killing myself. For me, the answer was to work and learn and eventually all of my problems were solved but it did not happen overnight.

I guess I feel sorry for this guy on some level. He didn't ask to be born a narcissist or a psychopath. On some level he is also a victim here. It just sucks all around.

[DemocraticWing]

207. "The supreme gentleman" wouldn't kill seven people.

What a hideously deluded man.

[stevenleser]

226. I read the guys manifesto, watched the videos. Wonder what went wrong with this guy.

I haven't ruled anything in or out yet. Cali suggests he was a simple sociopath/psychopath, he might have been. The article you posted suggested it had something to do with the MRA movement and it might have. I'm going to digest it a bit.

At some point, fairly typical angst and fear of not fitting in and awkwardness dealing with members of the opposite sex that I think 99% of people have in middle school and high school took a really dark turn.

It's as if the ability to be a socialized adult that at first slowly manifests itself and then completes in kids from ages 12-18 never materialized in this person and he became more and more angry and began to hate everyone and everything for it and focused his attention on women in particular because he desperately wanted a girlfriend and felt women rejected him and perhaps because of influence of the MRM movement. Of course people of all sexes and orientations tend to reject people as mates who are completely socially inept.

I do think our society does poorly at reaching out to those who feel alienated. I wonder with guys like this and the Virginia Tech shooter, etc., if there was a way they could have been reached/saved. I find it very sad all around.

[BainsBane]

227. To clarify

Daily Kos suggests he was influenced by the MRA movement. It has also been reported elsewhere. I simply posted the Kos article. Obviously I dislike MRAs regardless of whether this guy was one. If he was, he wouldn't be the first killer influenced by MRA ideology. The mass shooter in Norway was, and there have been others.

This shooter's video and manifesto does seen to articulate some MRA ideology. The video is in the OP and someone posted a link to the manifesto in this thread.

[stevenleser]

228. Edited.

I had read about the Norway shooting. That guy made this guy look sane.

[davidn3600]

232. I dont really think women had much to do with his problems

I think he had some form of Aspergers or autism which caused him some social impairment. That social impairment was obviously causing him extreme psychological stress and that may have been leading to other mental problems.

Really....it isn't difficult to find a girlfriend. It isn't difficult to get laid. With the internet it's rather simple these days. Of course with his social impairment...he struggled with it greatly. People with aspergers or social anxiety disorders will have intense fears of social rejection or being judged or feel awkward or uncomfortable in social settings. 99.9% don't turn to violence like this. But if the disorder is causing stress or interfering with normal functions, it's a problem that requires treatment. And if it doesnt get treatment, it can lead to other forms of psychopathy.

And you are right that the common denominator in a lot of these type of shootings is the shooter is usually a young male who is isolated/rejected and many times bullied. They feel socially outcasted. And this has really existed in the public eye since Columbine. And practically nothing has been done to help people like this. Instead most of these debates devolve into gun control debates.

There is also the unfortunate epidemic lately of bullied kids killing themselves. Our society does have a problem here that it just doesnt seem like it wants to address.

[BainsBane]

233. There is a difference between reality and perception

Clearly he blamed women, which is why he targeted a sorority house. His manifesto makes clear he hated women.
Very few people on the austism spectrum are violent. Additionally, autistics generally feel less of a need for social interaction than those not on the spectrum. They can even find touch painful. Asperbergers does not explain the shooting.

[octoberlib]

261. It was probably a combination of all of those.

In his manifesto he stated a couple of times that his mother should marry a wealthy man so that his life would be better and that she was selfish for not doing so. This is classic sociopath.

[My Good Babushka]

252. Women wouldn't have sex with him because he is a psychopath

he was operating outside normal thinking. He eschewed, in his own statement, the so-called Mens Rights Movement. He would have made up other wonky, psychopathic reasons for doing what he did if there was no Mens Rights Movement because he is a psychopathic killer.

[BainsBane]

253. no doubt

It, however, provided him with an ideology to hang his grievances on and likely influenced his decision to target women.

[redruddyred]

260. what I want to know is, why are we raising young men with such a misplaced sense of entitlement?

perhaps it's time that our notion of masculinity got a makeover.

[MisterP]

268. refrigerator mothers, 2.0? I think not

[redruddyred]

283. yowch good point.

moms are cool; I was thinking more along the lines of hollywood movies.

[Jamastiene]

259. K&R

That sounds like how some MRA types think. We've had to put up with those types for ages now. Why are they not considered hate groups yet? They certainly hate women.

[maced666]

265. Yes, ALL women were wrong, he is right - now we get it, dude.

Wait.
You ARE/WERE a creep that could snap and kill people.

Does/did/can he even know that by doing what he planned to do - proved his narcissism and that women were making the right decision to not date him?

Nope.
He was a narcissist.