Why did the brilliant trained spy ever go to Hong Kong? Why didn't he fly directly to Venezuala

[pnwmom]

or Iceland and apply for asylum before arranging to have his material published?

Why didn't he just mail his thumb drives to GEG?

It was his decision to put himself in the hands of the Chinese and Russians, not anyone else's. Why would a trained spy, aware of the risks, who was not a double or triple agent, do such a thing?

And why does he now think it helps his case to proclaim himself a trained US spy, instead of a disillusioned naif who accidentally ended up in Russia?

[FSogol]

1. The laser cutting torch on his ballpoint pen failed and he missed going off the ski jump into

that descending nuclear submarine. Also, his Alfa Romero GTV6 was in the shop having a front end alignment work done.

[pnwmom]

4. That's one explanation. n/t

[Lancero]

52. The quality of laser pens has gone down quite a bit...

Since their production was outsourced to China.

Also, he missed the ski jump because his jetpack stopped working.

...One guess as to where his jetpack was manufactured.

[okaawhatever]

105. Lolz. So true, so very true. 007 had his stuff made in country. Something America should embrace nt

[Dorian Gray]

131. ha....

[Warren Stupidity]

2. I have no idea. Perhaps Vz not the best choice for asylum?

Do you think it is constitutional for the NSA to be spying on US citizens living in the US without any 4th amendment required warrant?

[pnwmom]

7. No, I don't. I'm glad he released that information but he didn't have to collect or release

the information about our international spying.

If he was already the puppet of the Russians, however, that would explain why he didn't confine himself to releasing leaks about domestic spying. They would get to discredit the US with other countries just before they started to crack down on Crimea and the Ukraine.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. The spying on our friends and the spying for economic advantage are corrupt practices.

[MohRokTah]

17. No, they aren't.

Every nation in the world does it.

Every nation in the world has done it since there have been nations in the world.

It's not a corrupt practice.

It's called reality.

[Capt. Obvious]

46. All politicians are corrupt

But that means they're not. It's just reality.

[Fred Drum]

54. The US DOJ disagrees with you (NT)

[merrily]

79. Things can be universal and corrupt.

Calling it reality doesn't take it out of the corrupt column. Neither does the child's perennial excuse to his or her parents--"But everyone else does it."

However, I am not sure if spying on alleged friends is corrupt to begin with. For one thing, I don't think nations have real friends .

[pnwmom]

19. When have we been accused of stealing trade secrets, as the Chinese have? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

37. Oh we would never do that.

our officials have repeatedly denied that any such thing has happened while they were busy hacking around the planet.

[merrily]

80. Accusations determine important things?

Plenty of people in the US steal trade secrets, from each other and from people in other nations. We can safely leave things like that to our beloved job creators, whose interests we protect to the nth degree both against their fellow USians and against other nations.

For just one example, the feds consider copyright infringement terrorism.

[Drew Richards]

3. Probably because he was trying to sell some info to the chinese for cash and asylum but they just

Took it all from him...then he tried to flee to the next payday and same thing happened in russia....but that is just a WAG on my part.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. I would say that's a pretty good WAG...

as WAG's go...

sP

[jmowreader]

117. That's one possibility

Try this out: During the latter years of the Cold War a PFC who worked in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment's security office committed some piddly infraction and was put on barracks restriction over a three-day holiday. 3ACR was the unit tasked with defending the Fulda Gap - the area where the Soviets were expected to cross into West Germany through. In those grand days when we just KNEW the commies were gonna invade any second now, 3ACR was the most important unit in Europe.

So to get back at his platoon sergeant for ruining his weekend, he went in to the office, copied the 3ACR's war plan onto a laptop, typed up a set of flag orders (a document you needed if you wanted to travel by land from West Germany to Berlin; it had a picture of a US flag at the top and when you typed them, your ID card and flag orders had to match character-for-character. The official reason was that the Soviet private who checked your flag orders couldn't read English; the real reason is they were just fucking with you), went AWOL, drove to Checkpoint Alpha, got through the American side, drove the kilometer to the Soviet checkpoint, and offered the contents of the laptop in exchange for asylum in the Soviet Union. The GRU copied the information on the laptop, picked up the phone, dialed the 3ACR staff duty officer and asked that he come pick up the 3ACR's problem child. He got twenty years in Leavenworth so he should be out by now.

There's a decent possibility the Chinese were fixin' to give Snowden to the American Embassy once they copied all the information he brought them, or at least they told him they would. (The "he only had one copy" thing...come on, do you really believe that? He didn't steal hardcopies, he stole computer files. He seems to know how to use a computer; I don't think he forgot how to type "copy c:/*.* f:" after he got out of the building.) Seriously, folks: What advantage would China have keeping him? China already has people with every skill Snowden has or claims, and the guys they have already speak both Chinese and English.

He's a better fit for Russia simply because Putin wanted a very sharp stick to poke Obama's eye with. I give them a year to be tired of Snowden and send him away...who would take him then? Cuba maybe?

[Thinkingabout]

5. Well, he sure isn't a 007 agent, if he thought he was going to be in a ticker tape parade he missed.

I am not sure the Russian and Chinese trips was not planned. He has had good words from Putin and now the Chinese has given stunning reviews of him. He needs to out his "friends" right here in the US, it is probably coming, he tells all in a new book.

[Hekate]

6. I will always wonder why he did it that way. We needed to know about surveillance in the US...

... but the way he's gone about it all, the way he has vomited forth everything, has cast long shadows of doubt over all of his motives.

[pnwmom]

12. I don't think it's a coincidence that he ended up in Russia,

releasing information about our international spying that put us at odds with our allies,
just before Russia increased its crackdown on Crimea and the Ukraine.

[uponit7771]

16. BINGO!!! I thought I was goin nuts with the timing thing with Ukraine

[Hekate]

26. I don't think so either. He's provided a lot of cover for two nations that are Not Our Friends...

... and have their own very bad behavior to account for. Either he's a gigantic fool or he thinks we are. And in his interview with Brian Williams he wants us to understand that he, Edward Snowden, is quite knowledgeable about international relations and not a fool at all.

So, in the name of forcing the US to clean up its act regarding spying on its own citizens, he has badly damaged our relations with our allies (for doing what they all do or would do if they had the skills) and has weakened us with regard to our most powerful opponents.

Hmmmm.

[zeemike]

51. You mean because Russia was behind the coup that over through the elected government

Of the Ukrain?...
Why are some conspiracy theories believed and others ridiculed?...because they fit what you want to believe and not what you don't.

[LittleBlue]

8. Venezuela isn't powerful enough to protect him

One election of a US-friendly leader and he would be toast.

Iceland wouldn't have protected him either. Neither of these two countries have an adequate intelligence service to counter the CIA.

There are only two governments on earth with the power, willingness and intelligence service to oppose the US on Snowden: Russia and China.

It makes perfect sense why those were his only choices.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. oh come on, it is very important to Bash Him, new revelations are coming out.

[Maedhros]

59. It's interesting....

We've gone for a month or so with no real Snowden/Greenwald threads, then all of a sudden - POW! - four or five of them, all saying the same thing...

Curious.

[arcane1]

70. I think that might be due to his recent interview where he claims spy-training.

[MADem]

104. Curious only if you didn't have your tv tuned to NBC from ten to eleven PM eastern this evening.

Otherwise, an entirely appropriate discussion of a VERY current event.

All of a sudden--POW! A one hour interview with "Snowden-the-actual-real-spy" himself.

[pnwmom]

15. So you think he was lying when he said his intent was to go to Cuba and South America?

It makes perfect sense that Russia would have recruited him as a double-agent.They caught him stealing US secrets and told them that he was toast unless they cut them in. They could orchestrate his release of leaks about international spying, putting the US at odds with its allies, while they planned their crackdown on Crimea and the Ukraine.

[LittleBlue]

20. That's true

But we don't have proof that happened. And if it did, maybe we should have offered him a pardon in exchange for him returning.

We were stupid to put him in a position to either betray his country or spend the rest of his life in dark hole like Manning. We should have taken our licks and put this to bed. Unfortunately politics got in the way of sense.

[struggle4progress]

40. Manning won't spend his life in prison unless he dies prematurely: he'll be eligible

for parole by 2020

[sulphurdunn]

67. Manning is an example.

He won't get paroled until he needs someone to change his diaper and put in his teeth.

[struggle4progress]

71. Did you hear that from Zoltar himself?

[sulphurdunn]

95. Zoltar is always right.

Haven't you ever watched The Twilight Zone? Have you been there? Are you there now?

[Egnever]

113. .

and soda spewed furiously from my nose......

[MADem]

123. Manning does not suffer from progeria. nt

[MADem]

122. Manning is fighting to stay put.

The Army wanted to transfer Manning to the federal prison system because gender reassignment services are available there. Manning, though, asked to stay put.

I can't fault the logic--Leavenworth is very nice, as prisons go. The facilities are not glamorous, but they are clean, modern, adequate to their purpose, and there's none of that prison violence and drama that one sees in civilian systems. Because the prisoners are military personnel, they understand the value of routine and a pecking order and a bit of good order and discipline, how it makes life easier when living in a group for everyone to know the drill and follow it. And, small group dynamics being what they are, it's possible to make friends.

Probably if that kid had a FRIEND while deployed that whole "dump off mindless crap to Assange without reading it" business might not ever have happened.

[struggle4progress]

133. Dunno about the logic here: transfer might perhaps be to his long-term advantage

Does the Army Clemency and Parole Board release Army prisoners held in the custody of the Federal Bureau of Prisons on parole?
No, the Army Clemency and Parole Board only makes parole decisions on Army prisoners confined within Department of Defense correctional facilities. The US Parole Commission is responsible for supervised release decisions for military prisoners transferred to Federal Bureau of Prisons' facilities.

[MADem]

135. Manning is probably doing well at Leavenworth.

Settled in, making friends, adjusting to the routine.

It's clean, it's not crowded, it's civilized and low-stress/low-drama.

The Army Clemency and Parole Board probably puts a lot of stock in things like adherence to the regulations, being a productive prisoner, self-improvement, etc. In a smaller, more intimate atmosphere where the rules are clearly defined, there's little to no risk of danger (there's not a lot of misbehavior at Leavenworth), Manning probably feels more secure in that setting--who wouldn't, really.

There's something to be said for having EVERYONE in the doggone jail coming out of the same uniformed, Armed Forces experience. It's like everyone coming from the same town.

[onenote]

63. In his defense, he didn't say he was a good spy.

[merrily]

82. I heard him say to Williams that his plan was to go to Cuba and from Cuba to South America.

That's a little different from saying he was going to Cuba AND South America.

[uponit7771]

18. Iran? regards, Chinese intel is up there with the AC fleet... non existent

[ProSense]

23. It's one

Venezuela isn't powerful enough to protect him

One election of a US-friendly leader and he would be toast.

Iceland wouldn't have protected him either. Neither of these two countries have an adequate intelligence service to counter the CIA.

There are only two governments on earth with the power, willingness and intelligence service to oppose the US on Snowden: Russia and China.

It makes perfect sense why those were his only choices.

...excuse after another. In response to the OP question, you say China and Russia were "his only choices," suggesting that he went there by choice. That runs counter to Snowden's BS talking point.

Snowden To Critics: 'Ask The State Department' Why I'm In Russia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011211

[Thinkingabout]

81. A new day, a new excuse, there was flights from the US to Venezuala on the date he left the US.

Apparently the "advisor" he had with him when he flew to Moscow did not know the US could revoke his passport if he had charges against him, blame the advisor.

[MADem]

106. The advisor that kept him stashed in the Russian Consulate in Hong Kong?

Wasn't THAT special...!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/report-snowden-stayed-at-russian-consulate-while-in-hong-kong/2013/08/26/8237cf9a-0e39-11e3-a2b3-5e107edf9897_story.html

Kommersant reported Monday that Snowden purchased a ticket June 21 to travel on Aeroflot, Russia’s national airline, from Hong Kong to Havana, through Moscow. He planned to fly from Havana to Ecuador or some other Latin American country.

That same day, he celebrated his 30th birthday at the Russian Consulate in Hong Kong, the paper said — although several days earlier he had had an anticipatory birthday pizza with his lawyers at a private house.

Kommersant cited conflicting accounts as to what brought Snowden to the consulate, on the 21st floor of a skyscraper in a fashionable neighborhood. It quoted a Russian close to the Snowden case as saying that the former NSA contractor arrived on his own initiative and asked for help. But a Western official also interviewed by the newspaper alleged that Russia had invited him.....Kommersant quoted unnamed Russian officials as saying that the Cubans decided to refuse Snowden entry under U.S. pressure, leaving him stranded. That version stands in contrast to widespread speculation that the Russians never intended to let the former CIA employee travel onward.

The article implies that Snowden’s decision to seek Russian help came after he was joined in Hong Kong by Sarah Harrison, a WikiLeaks staff member who became his adviser and later flew to Moscow with him....

[wandy]

13. Excellent question. Would it not have made more sense to......

1) Reaffirm his arrangement Greenwald.
2) Select a country he wanted to be in. Preferably one with good climate and with out an extradition agreement.
3) Go there and get all nice and settled in.
4) Then have his material published.

Then and again I have dealt with many brilliant IT people who's long term planning amounted to lunch.
Even had the joyous experience of playing "Shepard" to a few groups of them.

[MohRokTah]

14. Double Naught Spies ALWAYS know what they're doing.

You can question what a Double Naught Spy does, but you're not even close to being on his level.

[Sunlei]

21. imo because whoever really wanted him to DL all that information didn't care about what

happened to him after they got the info. they were after.

[rhett o rick]

22. I was hoping we had a slight reprieve from the hate Snowden posts.

I notice that you use the insinuation via question technique instead of actually stating your point of view.

I have a question, why dont you post in threads re. net neutrality or fracking? No opinion?

[pnwmom]

28. Maybe you should ask Snowden then to stop putting himself out there.

He's determined to continue to make himself the issue.

[rhett o rick]

34. It's a distraction from important issues like Wall Street corruption, fracking, the TPP, indefinite

detention, the XL Pipeline, and other issues that are avoided like the plague by some here. I am not sure how Snowden is important now, except to be used as a distraction.

[ProSense]

35. Looks like you have some threads to start.

Go for it!

[rhett o rick]

42. There are lots and lots of such threads, but the "hate Snowden Group" wont participate. Odd that

so-called politically liberals dont have opinions on fracking, the TPP, and other issues that might cast a shadow on the current Administration.

We have fracking poisoning our water supplies and the "love the status quo" bunch, are more interested in hating whistle-blowers.

Do you realize that if we allow the NSA/CIA/FBI to go unchallenged they might forget we want to live in a Democracy. I can see how tempting it must be for some to sell their privacy for the promise of security. Benny Franklin wouldnt approve.

[ProSense]

45. Why do you care what anyone else does? Go engage in the "lots of such threads"

DU doesn't need a Participation Police

[rhett o rick]

68. I am just curious why none of you post in threads on certain important issues.

I could understand if it were one or two but when you get 100% in every thread, it is a little glaring. Why wouldnt liberals have opinions about fracking, the TPP, Wall Street corruption, the XL Pipeline, net neutrality, indefinite detention. And why would so-called liberals be so hateful toward whistle-blowers, OWS, Code Pink, protestors, etc. I am curious as to what the agenda is? It certainly stirs things up here.

[pnwmom]

108. Here you go:

fracking -- against it

the TPP -- too early to know

Wall Street corruption, against it

the XL Pipeline, -- not good, but fracking's worse

net neutrality -- for it

indefinite detention -- it depends.

[rhett o rick]

109. Funny that I never see you in any of those threads. Actually none of the "Group" post

in those threads. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the Facebook page.

[pnwmom]

115. And where are you in the GMO threads? Or e-cig threads or other health related threads?

And when have you told Snowden fans that they should stop posting about Snowden and post about your favorite issues instead?

I tend to post less in threads where there is overwhelming agreement, like net neutrality and fracking. I could be in there saying, "me, too" -- but what is the point?

[MADem]

129. Who knew we had a sizeable "pro-fracking" contingent here at DU?

Oh, wait....

We don't, do we....?

[Tarheel_Dem]

43. That's funny. The Repukes say the same thing about B-E-N-G-H-A-Z-I! Everything's a distraction.

Hmmmm......

[msanthrope]

76. Indeed it is a distraction--so why is giving an interview to NBC News tonight???? nt

[rhett o rick]

93. Wow you guys really turn out for a thread like this. I think you are all here.

Wouldnt it be cool if you guys showed this much enthusiasm for stopping fracking or stopping the TPP or stopping the XL Pipeline. But nope, only interested in disparaging en masse whistle-blowers, investigative journalists, OWS, Code Pink, Snowden, Greenwald, etc.

Well dont let me keep you from your duty.

[DirkGently]

114. It's like their Benghazi. The less fire, the more

smoke is blown. The boxes! The girlfriend! The Chinese newspaper article! The Russian "defector" angle!

Goddammit, something has to stick!

C'mon guys. You lost this one. If you had a point, don't you think there would at least be one, leading theory on why Snowden is a bad bad terrible thing?

[Cha]

47. Why don't you write Edward Snowden a fan letter and tell him to stop popping up

with all his bullshite then because you can't handle others discussing it?

[rhett o rick]

94. It only bothers me that people calling themselves liberals act so much like conservatives.

Worshiping the NSA/CIA/FBI cabal while disparaging whistle-blowers. Yielding rights to privacy for the "promise" of a little security.

[Cha]

97. You just want to whine because Snowden is being called out on his bullshit. nm

[rhett o rick]

107. The funny thing is that you try to insult me in that way. I dont care about Snowden.

Unlike you and the "Group" I care about my right to privacy. You guys care more about disparaging anyone who dares call attention to the oligarch state we live in. You only care that no one in any way holds our President accountable. You are willing to give up your rights because you think you've found a messiah. One that will coddle you and protect you. When the shite hits the fans, whose side will you be on? That's a rhetorical question. You will side with the Carlyle Group, hoping they will reward you with a pat on the head.

First they will come for the socialists, they always do, and you wont care. Then they will come for the liberals and again you wont care. Then they will come for the labor union members. And eventually they will come for you, and you will be crushed. You expected more for your devotion. H. Clinton is a strong member of the 1% and is not interested in the 99%.

[Cha]

110. I'm just stating a fact "I was hoping we had a slight reprieve from the hate Snowden posts."

If you don't like the information on Snowden write him a fan letter and tell him to stfu. He won't do it because he's a malignant narcissist and others will continue to discuss it.

[rhett o rick]

112. Seems you guys got nothing else but hate. Hate Snowden, hate Greenwald, hate OWS, hate anyone that

dares hold the President accountable. Liberals dont hate.

[zeemike]

53. They are trying to create a new conspiracy theory.

Which some will eat up like candy...anything to keep from facing the fact that we live in a security state even under a Democratic president.

[Aerows]

56. Greenwald is about to name names and reveal the Americans

that have been spied upon by the NSA. That will put the lie to their reasons for spying (i.e. keeping us "safe&quot and possibly offend some people in high places that probably knew about it, but once it becomes common knowledge, they have to address it to save face.

The surveillance apparati are shitting their pants - that's why all of this bluster all of the sudden and these conspiracy theories and smear jobs. They want to get out in front of it by making it all about Snowden to attempt to do damage control when the real shit hits the fan.

[grasswire]

78. ^^^

The timing is so clear.

[Maedhros]

60. The people that post this nonsense have no integrity. [n/t]

[Ikonoklast]

73. Nor do those wishing others only post subjects they deem worthy.

Because certain points made by others make them uncomfortable, and instead of trying to refute them, use mis-direction instead.

[Maedhros]

91. I'm referring to posters who substitute personal attacks for actual debate.

Regardless of subject.

[MADem]

125. Gee, OK for thee but not for me, that's your rule, apparently.

You tried that "insinuation via question" stuff on me--using a QUESTION to insinuate, to boot!

And here you go again!

[mike_c]

24. extradition from HK is particularly difficult and convoluted...

...making it a good destination if you have good reason to believe you're likely to be arrested while you're there. It is relatively easy to block extradition for long periods. In fact, I recall that legal analysts at the time did indeed call HK a "brilliant" choice when one needs to be difficult to extradite.

Russia was not Snowden's objective, but merely a transit point through Moscow, and he got stuck there when he couldn't proceed onward. Luckily, Russia was willing to give him temporary asylum.

[pnwmom]

29. How do you know what was his objective? He claimed that South America was his objective,

but he could have flown directly to South America from the US and ONLY THEN, when he was in the location he had chosen, have his leaks published by GEG.

[mike_c]

134. I know you simply don't want to see his actions objectively...

...but no one had yet offered Snowden asylum. He couldn't ask for it "preemptively," since doing so would immediately alert the U.S. government, who could bring enormous pressure to bear upon the countries in which he sought asylum. He needed to go somewhere that U.S. pressure was more-or-less irrelevant, and Hong Kong's current extradition laws made it a good choice.

It's a dilemma. You're right that, if he could have traveled to a safe country before revealing what the U.S. surveillance state was up to, he wouldn't be trapped in Russia today, but doing so would have greatly increased his risk of arrest and extradition upon arrival-- not to mention downright kidnapping or drone assassination. He had no basis for seeking asylum until AFTER blowing the whistle on the NSA. I'm sure that in hindsight, he'd likely do some things differently if he could.

Here's a link to an article describing why Hong Kong was a shrewd choice: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/130610/why-edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition-asylum

[MADem]

127. Not if the mainland says "Make it so."

I think he bolted because someone on the China team said "We're going to fast track you and hand you back to our largest trading partner."

It's only a brilliant move when China finds keeping the troublemaker worthwhile. I don't think they wanted him around, they let him know, so he ran off to the Russian consulate, where he celebrated his birthday, hid out (got used to putting his head on a Russian pillow to sleep at night), and formulated a plan with his good buddy Assange.

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of Putin's pals had him by the elbow in the early days, either.

That wasn't his first trip to Hong Kong.

[Tarheel_Dem]

25. Great questions. WORST! SPY! EVER!

[Whisp]

38. I just had an image of Snowden and GG walking along together

and printed on their t-shirts:

I'm with Stupid ------> is what Snowden's says
I'm with Stupid Spy <----- is what Greenwald's says.

[Tarheel_Dem]

41. That is priceless!

[gratuitous]

39. No kidding!

It's a wonder our vaunted intelligence apparatus just handed him all this super-secret spy stuff so he could run off with it, isn't it?

Well, I'm sure Snowden was the only one. Pretty sure. Reasonably sure. Sort of sure.

[Number23]

118. "WORST! SPY! EVER!"

I am dying!! No wonder I keep hearing/reading the name Maxwell Smart around here.

[WatermelonRat]

27. My impression was that workers in sensitive areas like him are kept close track of.

He had to wait for the right excuse to go abroad.

[pnwmom]

30. He could have arranged a trip to Canada and from there, gone anywhere.

And only arranged for the publication of his materials after he was in some safe haven.

He said he was aiming for South America. Was that a lie?

[Zorra]

31. Look at it this way ~ he didn't get caught, and he is not dead, or in prison, right now.

And...he has yet to be falsely accused of rape or child molestation.

He eluded the forces of the most powerful Military Industrial Espionage Complex in the history of the world.

Obviously, his decisions were reasonably wise.

[dipsydoodle]

32. Yep

He made the correct decision.

[pnwmom]

33. So he was lying when he clearly said he never intended to go to Russia,

that his intent was to fly to South America. Even though he could have flown directly to South America and skipped both China and Russia.

[Zorra]

55. I'm interested in the information he reveals about violations of my personal liberty,

not in uninformed random speculation designed to deflect attention away from the fact that spooks have been sniffing my panties without good reason and without my knowledge or consent.

[randome]

36. Funny how neither Assange nor his attorneys disputed what occurred.

Assange's only 'argument' was that Swedish laws shouldn't apply to him.

Both these Libertarian assholes are where they are because they're Libertarian assholes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Aerows]

61. When Greenwald names the names

provided him by Snowden, you will see an upsurge in "Libertarian assholes", I'll wager.

It's okay to demonize both of them - once it all comes out, it will be a disaster for the surveillance state and will end up being a victory for the 4th and 1st Amendments. You know, Americans that should be protected under both of them via the Constitution.

[Cha]

44. Snowden's a "spy" that defected to Russia, then. Spreading US secrets all over globe.. and he and

his fan club expect all to be forgiven. No wonder he didn't go through the proper channels of a "whistleblower".

[gwheezie]

48. He said he was an american spy

and wanted to go to cuba, I take him at his word. Why would he say that if it wasn't true, he always tells the truth.

[pnwmom]

49. Then why didn't he fly to Canada and then straight to Cuba?

He could have mailed the thumb drives from anywhere, to anywhere.

[gwheezie]

50. the hint of sarcasm

didn't work, I don't believe him.

[lexington filly]

57. If I were going on the run from the most powerful

country in the world, I'd try to find a space with a gazillion people to lose myself in and a city
whose government wasn't inclined to let the CIA come in and kidnap me back to the
U.S. If Chavez had still been alive perhaps he could have gone straight to Venezuela cause he would have relished in defying the U.S. This new head, waivers.

In any event, he's in Russia because we stranded him there by canceling his passport and underestimating Putin's glee in poking a high publicity stick in our eye.

A guy who had the courage to publicize what his conscious told him was wrong-doing by his country cannot be a spy selling secrets to China and Russia because he was giving the information to the American people through journalists and sunlight. We're the only ones who can do anything about all this and try to protect our own rights.

Wikileaks pretty well exposed our State Department to be an arm of big corporations and fossil fuel companies. Snowdon's revealed apparently the NSA is just another arm. Taxpayers support all these government arms and legs of corporations while they funnel their jobs and money overseas. We're paying for the knife to cut our own throats. So Snowdon isn't the problem. He's the one pointing out a source of some of our problems. So, I thank him.

[pnwmom]

74. He's in Russia because he chose to go to there from Hong Kong,

not because we stranded him there. He flew to Russia without a US passport. He could have flown somewhere else instead.

If you were worried about authoritarian practices you saw here, why would you take shelter in a MORE authoritarian country?

[SoapBox]

58. ...he's a lying , weasel piece of shit.

Enjoy Russia, Comrade Eddie.

[Cha]

62. "Snowden trained as spy, yet stuck in Moscow. Either training sucked, he sucked, or.. "

Liberal Librarian @Lib_Librarian
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Snowden trained as spy, yet stuck in Moscow. Either training sucked, he sucked, or *gasp* he's a big fat fibber. Take your pick.
12:33 PM - 28 May 2014

TOD

Or, he defected and he's right where he thought he wanted to be.

[merrily]

88. Or the US flexed its muscles and no individual is a match for that.

I have no brief for Snowden, but we all watched this happen. The US revoked his passport while he was traveling, even got other countries to down the plane of a head of state, on the theory that he might have Snowden with him. Unless Snowden somehow managed to coerce the USG into doing the things it did, it's silly to blame him.

[Cha]

96. Fuck snowden.. he took the job with the intent to steal. nm

[merrily]

98. Maybe, maybe not. I can't know that (and I doubt you can either). However, it's different issue

entirely from why he ended up in Russia, which was the point you raised originally. And, both those things are very different issues from whether the government is doing right by us, which I think is the only important issue.

It was important, short term and long term, for the American people to know that their government believed it could not win the Vietnam "Era," no matter what, yet was both continuing the war and telling voters that it was winning. The importance of Ellsberg motives in making that info public, paled in comparison, even at the time, and meant nothing long term. Same for Snowden and Greenwald, who are only distractions from the real issue. Distractions, unfortunately, on which some seem to love to dwell and to get everyone else to dwell.

[Todays_Illusion]

64. Maybe Snowden has been in Kansas all this time.

Really, who knows, but we can look forward to a continuing story.

[Cryptoad]

65. Papa Paul and Comrade Snowden ~ 2016 nt

[stupidicus]

66. obviously to arm those who want to dodge the issues he revealed

with material that they might stupidly think obscures them, as well as perhaps, exonerates the one who's captained the NSA ship for the last few years.

Odd how it is that criticisms of GG and Snowden seem to be far, far more important to some than criticizing the actions or inaction of those behind their revelations, no?

[ellennelle]

69. what is wrong with you people??

are you just willfully not paying attention?

snowden selected hong kong expressly because he did not want to be extradited back to the US; they have no such agreement with us (though iceland does). neither does venezuela, but - again - have you been paying attention to what is going on there for well over a year now? it's a bit chaotic, to put it mildly, and assuming he would get the protection he needs there, especially if there were any changes in the power structure, was pretty iffy. he did ultimately get the invite, and was on a flight there via moscow (that's also not hard to figure out; trade and diplomacy between them have been easy since chavez came to power), but the US state dept pulled his passport.

set up asylum prior to publication? really? are there any synapses firing in there? on what grounds would he beg asylum, pray tell? you think for a second anyone would grant it without looking at the goods first? how would that work exactly? would he shop it around? duh.

moreover, the notion that he is some novice with computers is absurd; how the hell do you think he pulled all this off the way he did? he is not the equivalent of manning here, who was pretty much a novice, and quite troubled. not so for snowden on either count.

mail his thumbdrive? are you frikkin' kidding me? the whole point of this was to make absolutely certain the american public were made aware of what our government is actually doing. mail all that proof on a thumbdrive??

all i can say is, clearly none of you grunts have a clue how any of this works, which is why he was working for the CIA and booz allen and had ultra hi security clearance and could figure out how to actually do all this and not get caught, his plan was so careful and precise, and well, you are none of that.

[ozone_man]

72. Well said! And besides,

it's not about Snowden. What's up with the ad hominem attacks here?

[msanthrope]

77. It's not about Comrade Eddie, but he's giving an interview to NBC News tonight??? nt

[whatchamacallit]

84. It's obviously all about "Comrade Eddie"

for the obsessed haters. 24/7 you make it about ES.

[msanthrope]

85. He's giving an interview to NBC news.....but it's not about him???? nt

[whatchamacallit]

86. It's about him for you

Incessantly.

[msanthrope]

87. Is it not Edward Snowden sitting down and talking to NBC News? nt

[whatchamacallit]

89. Whatever Edward Snowden does

newsworthy or not, there you are, obsessing.

[Maedhros]

92. For many, it's all they've got.

They just can't sustain any real argument in the face of logical rebuttal.

Others have a well-developed sense of identity with and loyalty to the country and/or the President and view Snowden et al. as a threat, and so they lash out.

Some are purposefully trolling.

[pnwmom]

75. He says he wanted to go to Venezuela. He could have flown there

and published from there and they would have been happy to give him asylum.

Apparently you aren't aware that thumb drives can be copied. He could have mailed them, and kept copies in a safe place.

I agree that his plan was careful and precise. That's why I think he ended up exactly where he had planned from the beginning: Russia. Because he cares so much about civil rights, and Russia is the Great Protector.

[randome]

90. Well, he fucked up, didn't he?

Careful? Precise? This from the guy who didn't know that PRISM was a secure FTP transfer point? The guy who stole a bunch of SharePoint documents instead of any personal information that could prove what he claimed?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[merrily]

83. Maybe we'll hear more about that tonight. Maybe he didn't want to leave a bread crumb trail.

Lots of possible reasons.

This is silly.

[msanthrope]

99. American Ambassador pointed out a direct Snowden lie in the post-interview MSNBC roundtable.....

Russia is a sovereign state, and could have issued Snowden travel documents to pass to any country that would take him.

The claims that he cannot travel without his American passport are lies by Snowden.

[karynnj]

101. May not be lies -- it could be that Snowden did not know this

and was being told he could not fly without a valid passport.

[joshcryer]

103. Yup, Putin isn't done with him.

Otherwise Snowden could've left long ago.

[Blue_Tires]

100. Don't bother asking these kinds of questions

you're only inviting a shitstorm upon your head...

I've been asking them for almost a year and I'm no closer to the truth than when I started...

[MADem]

102. Why did he spend several nights in the RUSSIAN CONSULATE in Hong Kong?

He celebrated his birthday IN that consulate.


When I hear hoofbeats, I think horses, not zebras.

[rhett o rick]

111. Did you know that "Just Asking Questions" was a newly recognized illogical fallacy? It's a favorite

of Faux News.

See here
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Frationalwiki.org%2Fwiki%2FJust_asking_questions&ei=WLyGU6qWIY7toATO7YKQCw&usg=AFQjCNEwXWGAuG5tnWqIwEZYclf2JQU-Dg&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cGU

[MADem]

116. You clearly don't know that distracting from an obvious point is the mark of a failed argument.

Funny how you "just ask a question" in your very own subject line, while you accuse me of being a FauxSnoozer for just asking a question--oh, the irony, as they say. The FauxSnooze crew are on YOUR side on this issue--you shouldn't piss them off, you may need a handy cite from the ES cheering squad one day, and you don't want double down on the hypocrisy, I shouldn't think.

Here, let me put it in a way that most people understand.

Patriots don't run and hide in the Russian Consulate, celebrate their birthday there, and hang around for days before flying to Moscow. Hong Kong International is a very busy airport; it's not like there weren't any flights going anywhere.

Patriots don't wait for Assange's Little Helper to show up with an Ecuadorean travel document, gotten under nefarious pretenses by a guy hiding in a Knightsbridge embassy who is sitting on a whole bunch of Russian "leakable" material...but for some reason, he doesn't leak it.

Here's another question you might want to ponder: Why didn't Assange leak any of that swell Russian dirt he's sitting on? Could he be on the Pootie Payroll, too?

Horses, not zebras.

Now, tell me again how your compatriots at Faux use those questions all the time...!

[Cha]

120. Clearly he hasn't gotten it that his obvious attempts at distracting from

Snowden are going over like the ol' lead balloon analogy.

thanks for explaining it so well to him, MADem.

P.S. this tweet quotes Snowden as saying this.. What on earth will the DU Greensnow fan club say about that?!

Liberal Librarian @Lib_Librarian
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Katie bar the door RT @ZekeJMiller: Snowden: "People have unfairly demonized the NSA to a point that is too extreme"
5:01 PM - 28 May 2014

TOD

[MADem]

121. Apparently he DID SAY THAT!!!!

He insisted that analysts and others at lower-levels of the NSA are good people
"People have unfairly demonized the NSA to a point that’s too extreme," Snowden said. "These are good people trying to do hard work for good reasons."

The problem is not the working-level guy like himself, he said, but senior officials “investing themselves with powers that they’re not entitled to, and they’re doing it without asking the public for any consent.”

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-nbc-interview-2014-5#ixzz335Zw0L6y

I think he's full of regret, but he's like the kid who broke the Ming vase--no amount of glue is gonna put it right again. He's got to get sent to his room without supper, do his time at Club Fed, if he wants to come home.

The road to redemption is through the Federal Prison System. He may not like that idea, but that is where he's at. If he stays in Russia, he'll continue to be squeezed and used. He may claim he has no contact with the Russian government, but his lawyer is a good buddy of Putin's from back in their KGB days together, so that's kind of a dumbass statement for him to make.

[Cha]

126. First of all.. Eddie lies.. so any "claim" he makes smells like bullshit. If he wanted to

taken seriously and as a person who doesn't lie.. he should have thought of that way back when he was spewing lies about the President.

Secondly.. another claim of his is bogus bullshit..

Edward Snowden Says The US Stranded Him In Russia — Here Are 4 Problems With That Claim

There are several issues with the claim that the U.S. stranded Snowden in Russia. Here are the most glaring:

1. Snowden couldn't have left Russia because he had no valid travel documents when he landed at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport. The U.S. revoked Snowden's passport the day before he left. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange then acquired an unsigned Ecuadorian travel document — ostensibly for safe passage to Latin America — that was void when Snowden landed in Moscow.

2.WikiLeaks told him to go to Russia and stay there

3. Snowden is an NSA-trained hacker and "spy" who was traveling through the territory of two U.S. adversaries. To a foreign intelligence service, "Snowden is priceless." The idea that someone of his status and expertise could freely pass through Moscow is highly implausible.

4. WikiLeaks told Business Insider that the Ecuadorian document was meant to help Snowden leave Hong Kong. That raises the question of why Snowden would need the document if his passport was still valid (Snowden says he used it to leave China). WikiLeaks has not explained why it would send the NSA-trained hacker to Russia knowing he would land with a void passport and a bunk travel document.

MOre
http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-says-us-stranded-him-in-russia-2014-5

End snip//

"That appears to be what has happened. Snowden has now been living under FSB protection in an undisclosed location for 10 months. And even though Kerry offered to "have him on a flight today" if he wants to return to America, there is no indication that Vladimir Putin would allow that.

So if the former CIA technician "never intended to end up in Russia," perhaps he shouldn't have flown to Moscow in the first place.

Full of holes Snowden who keeps putting his narcissistic face out there for the suckers who eat up every word without question.

[MADem]

130. Well, he celebrated his birthday in Hong Kong at the Russian Consulate there....

I do wonder if he wasn't turned when he was working for DELL.

It wasn't his first time in Hong Kong. He went there on holiday (with the dancer he dumped) when he was working in Japan.

[Number23]

119. Holy moly. I actually did not know that. His Russian ties are more than problematic.

[MADem]

124. He probably learned how to say this in the Hong Kong Russian Consulate....

Maybe they even sang the Russian birthday song...!

[Cha]

128. Oh I dunno.. 'cause he wanted to go to Russia?

Edward Snowden Says The US Stranded Him In Russia — Here Are 4 Problems With That Claim

There are several issues with the claim that the U.S. stranded Snowden in Russia. Here are the most glaring:

1. Snowden couldn't have left Russia because he had no valid travel documents when he landed at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport. The U.S. revoked Snowden's passport the day before he left. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange then acquired an unsigned Ecuadorian travel document — ostensibly for safe passage to Latin America — that was void when Snowden landed in Moscow.

2.WikiLeaks told him to go to Russia and stay there

3. Snowden is an NSA-trained hacker and "spy" who was traveling through the territory of two U.S. adversaries. To a foreign intelligence service, "Snowden is priceless." The idea that someone of his status and expertise could freely pass through Moscow is highly implausible.

4. WikiLeaks told Business Insider that the Ecuadorian document was meant to help Snowden leave Hong Kong. That raises the question of why Snowden would need the document if his passport was still valid (Snowden says he used it to leave China). WikiLeaks has not explained why it would send the NSA-trained hacker to Russia knowing he would land with a void passport and a bunk travel document.

MOre
http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-says-us-stranded-him-in-russia-2014-5

End snip//

"That appears to be what has happened. Snowden has now been living under FSB protection in an undisclosed location for 10 months. And even though Kerry offered to "have him on a flight today" if he wants to return to America, there is no indication that Vladimir Putin would allow that.

[davidpdx]

132. Because he's........

00Snowjob the world's smartest spy

[miyazaki]

136. Ever check out the murder rate in Venezuala? n/t

[pnwmom]

137. Do you think he was lying when he said that was his intended destination?