General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe real reason a very loud few are posting hostility toward Glenn Greenwald at DU:
Those who build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines. A great deal of effort and resources are being poured into trying to give the false impression that Americans support our own government's abuses of power against us, and that we have contempt for those who exposed them.
It's no accident that the very small group of the loudest smearers of Greenwald are also overwhelmingly the most reliable attackers of liberals and defenders of every corporate outrage coming out of this administration: the TPP, indefinite detention, secret laws, secret courts, assaults on journalism, handing the internet to corporations, drone wars, drilling, fracking, corporate education, privatization, deregulation, etc., etc., etc.
DU overwhelmingly supports the actions of Greenwald and Snowden, as shown in virtually every poll posted here. This group uses the very same tactics, over and over again, including attacks on the messengers, mocking, swarming, and endless diversion from what is really important here: government abuse of power. It is all very familiar, and the tactics detailed in the links below.
Let's repost some reminders of what we are really dealing with here:
Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796
Salon: Obama confidants spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/
The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097
Snowden: Training Guide for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/
The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367
U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242
The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454
Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741
Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The people who attack Greenwald are employed by the government propaganda machine?
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)And Ta Nehisi Coates' article in the Atlantic was about white people paying reparations to black people.
[font color="white"]Damn. And it's always the first response in the thread. For some reason.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Those who build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines. A great deal of effort and resources are being poured into trying to give the false impression that Americans support our own government's abuses of power against us, and that we have contempt for those who exposed them.
It's no accident that the very small group of the loudest smearers of Greenwald are also overwhelmingly the most reliable attackers of liberals and defenders of every corporate outrage coming out of this administration...
It seems to me this is saying that the government is building a propaganda machine and some DUers are part of that machine.
The OP also provides a number of links detailing infiltration of message boards and other online communities.
Maybe I didn't interpret the OP correctly. That's why I'm asking for clarification from the OP.
Does the OP consider many of the people critical of Greenwald to be part of the government-built propaganda machine?
That was basically my question.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)It would be naive to assume it wasn't at work at DU.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Just look for any anyone expressing skepticism of Greenwald or Snowden!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)This thread is utterly fascinating to me.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)are long.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Always attacking the messenger and trying hard not to talk about the message. And the poster is quite correct about propaganda. Who they are is anybody's guess. The biggest laugh I got today though was seeing someone trying to make the connection of these sock-puppet, contractor paid for managed profiles to those who are liberals but disillusioned with Obama not reeling in the surveillance state. They actually claimed the good liberals here were racist fakes. Nice try NSA. That's so over the top it showed themselves. Believe me if it actually were republican racists and not republican branded military contracted NSA supporters then I believe they wouldn't be focused on the topic of whether we should allow NSA to molest us with surveillance. Many people are afraid to even comment online against the NSA now and polls have shown Americans are biting their lips with regard to conversation in general due to fears of surveillance. Good job NSA. You and your paid contractors are turning our society into the sick, twisted failure exhibited in 1984. Do these people even read? It made it worse for everyone eventually...even government supporters.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Some people will believe anything and have no other motive. But whoever they are they definitely are against Snowden and GG by definition.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)talking points, and they definitely do NOT continue to use lies that have been debunked, such as 'he represented skinheads, he's a racist' when it has been debunked so often only someone who is paid to use those talking points would do so.
If you don't like a public figure for good reason, it isn't hard to explain your reasons without using what become KNOWN talking points.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)There are likely many different groups at work. Some are single issue, some are military, others are law enforcement. The Leo are interesting in extremist political types, drugs or child exploitation.
The military types are promoting humanitarian wars, social media coups, the empire and defense
projects. Protecting military projects like the NSA. The single issue peeps GMO or certain nation states. All are active at DU.
When persona management is done properly we won't know it's at work. Over time some patterns develop that may turn into suspicions, but done properly its never going to be obvious or provable.
Even MIRT won't be able to tell.
If you google HBGARY and persona management, youll understand the depth and power of these systems. The reason DU is targeted is it's got great page rank on google.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)and wild conspiracy theories depend on the flatly absurd suggestion that governments and corporations do not spend millions, billions, to advertise, propagandize, and shape public opinion.
That the programs already exist is not in dispute. That the motivation to use them is strong is not debatable. Nor are the deep pockets of those whose interests they serve.
A primary goal of any group that seeks to impose major policy against the will and interests of the majority is to manage public opinion and public response so as to reduce the likelihood of pushback and revolt. Millions of us are being driven into poverty, and our Constitutional protections are being stripped. Of course great attention and money will be poured into managing public opinion and creating the illusion that the people support what is being done to them.
We already know these programs exist and are being used, not only within smaller political groups but also at the very highest levels of government, thanks to Sunstein's writings and the leaks by Snowden. They are a wholly predictable extension of the advertising and propaganda that already deluge our media and that are inherent in any major political struggle for power. Before we had the technology for interactive propaganda on the internet, we saw the cable news channels twisted into a steady diet of distractions, misrepresentations, and corporate talking points.
History shows that the tactics available to be used, will be used, in the struggle for political power and wealth. We have been carefully taught as Americans that it couldn't happen here; we are taught to associate these kinds of direct manipulations of citizens with totalitarian states, not ostensibly "representative" governments like our own. But we really aren't special, and what is happening in America right now is just one more example of the battles for power we have seen throughout history, by those who invariably claimed they were working in the best interests of the people.
Of course it exists, and of course it is here.
.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)corporate propaganda machine here. We have GE, which is a defense contractor, among many other things, owns a network. They didn't buy it for the ad dollars, they bought it for leverage on the Hill.
It used to be the Soviet Union that tortured and spewed propaganda while we thought we wore the white hats. Now we attack other countries for their resources and so our MIC can get our tax dollars and "Propaganda" has become our middle name.
Here is yet another issue that can be rectified down the road if we all fight for Publicly Funded Elections and Complete Campaign Finance Reform. All 3 branches of government and our media are owned by the Plutocracy so that they always get their way at our expense. (Sorry for the overused phrase but here goes), We must fight to get our country back! We do not have Representative Democracy any longer because we do not write the big campaign checks (bribes)!
I hate to say this, but almost as many Democrats are bought off as Republicans. If something is not done very soon it will be too late!
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Not that I would love someone just because FOX hates them though. I'm disappointed with Obama and it would be stupid to not be just because FOX hates him. But FOX does hate GG and Snowden as FAUX News has always hated the Truth.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The corruption of money in the system. Because you're right. It's the root of every single problem we face.
And the irony of the silence about it is that it's also the issue that could cross party lines and transform us into the 99 percent that could throw off these parasites.
Republicans are just as angry as we are about the state of the country, and just as disenfranchised. Their corporate-purchased candidates lie to them just as much as ours lie to us.
If we could unite across party lines on this single issue, it would go a long way toward returning control of this country to ordinary voters.
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)them from supporting Publicly Funded Elections. I guess they realize that without the big money RW donors, their party would always lose
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Jeremy Scahill from 2009
Rahm Emanuel's Think Tankers Enforce 'Message Discipline' Among 'Liberals'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)He authored papers to infiltrate the web and mock and repress people who opposed the government. He labeled them all conspiracy theorists. One mans conspiracy theory is another mans truth. One mans babykilling rebel is another mans freedom fighter is what we used to say when criticizing Reagan's out of control contras.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)seems to be the pattern from these people. Corporatists sell products. They don't represent the people.
You see it here, with Obama's choice of Rahm. You see it in the elections, when we are lectured to shut up and not rock the boat rather than demand what candidates stand for. You see it in Obama's comments on NSA, that Americans merely need to be made "comfortable" with spying. And you see it in his disgusting choice of Cass Sunstein, the author of online manipulation and smear campaigns directed against America's own citizens.
It's a twisted version of our system, in which lockstep obedience to the party and some corporate-manufactured illusion of democracy are more important than democracy itself. America won't survive it much longer.
merrily
(45,251 posts)conspiracy theorists, which found agreement from some DUers as soon as it was posted here?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)elzenmahn
(904 posts)....it also would not surprise me if the Obama Administration itself trolls this and other liberal message boards. They have every interest in trying to "control the message" being put out on the left side of the spectrum.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)"Rahm Emanuel's Think Tankers Enforce 'Message Discipline' Among 'Liberals'
"The White House is 'helping' liberal groups to get their political messages in sync with the official line."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Dare I say he sounds like another happy graduate of the Karl Rove Charm School?
Interesting how the article accuses MoveOn of having become a mouthpiece for the administration. They are the group that co-ordinated the peace groups and antiwar marches marches. It certainly is true that the movement was gutted after Bush left office. Cindy Crawford vilified, Code Pink discredited, MoveOn silent...And the treatment of Occupy is not easily forgotten.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Rove tactics. Seems they actually admired that little weasel, apologies to weasels btw. I remember wondering if they were kidding at the time. That was around 2005 or so. They became 'prominent' and I use this word lightly, 'liberal' bloggers so I guess their ideas were acceptable to some in the Dem Party. I thought we were working to stamp out that kind of bullying, despicable attack mode politics but I was wrong. I've been wrong about a lot of things, I am finding out.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)the accusations of talking points. So much drama! It is exactly like what Rove and Ari and Rummy used to pull daily in the Bush years.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I guess they need to get value for whatever they paid to come up with 'let's imitate Rove, he is so successful'.
elzenmahn
(904 posts)...and no surprise at all that Rahmey Baby is helping in the effort.
We don't need the Obama Administration's FUCKING help. We need them to listen to US.
merrily
(45,251 posts)That is another Big Lie. Center for American Progress is the think tank Podesta started. He is a Clintonite, not a liberal. MoveOn started to defend Clinton (though I believe it has "moved on" from that original purpose, I think it is still establishment.)
Dubbing the center right, or New Democrats, as "liberal," facilitates pretending that traditional Democrats are a fringe group and liberals are practically bomb throwers.
I hate Big Lies and the lying liars who tell them.
On the specific subject of message control, though, I agree. The Obama administration has done a lot of it. Not the first administration to do so, though.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and yet in post after post support the corporate agenda. Personally I dont think they are on the corporate payroll, I think they are merely afraid of fighting for our freedoms and liberties. They are comfortable with the status quo and will fight tooth and nail to keep it.
We are well into a bitter class war. We are out-monied and losing. The poverty rate and unemployment rates are killing the middle and lower classes, in some cases, literally.
We need the help of all the 99% and wonder why any would bow down to the oligarch overlords.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)on this, I am damned well going to assume they are either a paid troll, or an unpaid idiot.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)But before I call them "idiots" i want to make the case that they are sad authoritarians, which, I point out, doesnt excuse them. They, as many Americans, were raised to trust authority to a fault. When children it's necessary, but young adults should be taught to be skeptical of authority. That of course is harder than telling them to obey blindly, their parents, teachers, uncles, priests, etc.
By-the-way, you can get away with calling someone an asshole here, but will get the big hide if you call someone an authoritarian.
These idiots, as you call them, are in my books, frightened authoritarian followers.
Sorry, I got a bit random.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)They might be very bright, and a good progressive in many other regards; I stand corrected.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)It has gone way past just embarrassing.
I believe some are in it just for the Two Minutes of HATE,
because that is their nature. They certainly aren't competent or literate enough to get paid for their "work".
*Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Persecution of Whistle Blowers and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Government surveillance of the citizenry and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Secret Laws and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Secret Courts and Democracy can not-co-exist.
*Our Democracy depends on an informed electorate.
You either believe in Democracy,
or you don't.
It IS that simple.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)but as long as we all channeled our hostility and rage properly, the machine hummed smoothly. Now, some of us refuse to check our principles at the door and stop fighting for things we have always believed were important. In fact we are dumbfounded that this is the price we must pay to prove ourselves worthy. This is the crux of the problem. We are seen by the ultra partisans as saboteurs rather than freedom fighters. I don't know how this attitude can be corrected. When criticism implies treason and legitimate objections are labeled obstructionist, denounced as the arguments of the enemy, I feel as if I have entered Orwell territory for sure.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Caretha
(2,737 posts)They are embarrassed Republicans. I know them well. They are the kind that voted for Reagan the 1st & 2nd time, if they weren't old enough to vote in that election they voted for Bush Sr. After that they voted for Bush II the first time and really got embarrassed. They will never admit they voted for Bush II, but they did. When they became so embarrassed that they were such "marks" they voted for Obama the 2nd time....not the first time, but the second time.
They are nothing but shills, whether paid or not....
They have not one original thought or principle among the lot of them. NOT ONE FUCKING PRINCIPLE OR ORIGINAL THOUGHT.
I've never seen so many zeros in my life.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)add to DU. Trolls that claim to love Obama get a pass.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)If the shoe fits..................wear the fucking shoe and quit being such a pansy about it. Own it! Love it! It's your shoe
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)this all works into one sentence.
A one sentence synopsis is simply not possible for anyone who actually read the OP, so I am assuming you didn't get around to reading it yet.
pocoloco
(3,180 posts)to spend so much time here, have posting numbers in the 10,000s,
ready and able to shit upon the US Constitution at a seconds notice
spewing worthless "copy and paste" word salad from their vast
supply of horse shit?
Of course, being piss fucking ignorant, could factor in.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)That could explain how the Quislings are able
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5037672
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
DU Critics of Greenwald are Quislings, shitters upon the Constitution, their views are worthless horse shit. And piss fucking ignorant. I think this might be a wee bit disruptive, hurtful, etc., and over the top.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jun 2, 2014, 10:56 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster and the person who alerted on this post seem to be equally wrong.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: disgusting
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Pocoloco makes a valid point worth considering. If the alertist disagrees then they should say so in a reply rather than wanting to hide the post in a cowardly attempt to have the author's words hidden from view.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)A calm, sane spot in the midst of darkness.
Though to be fair, the darkness is completely generated by only a handful The Screamers.
Note to the Hate Greenwald/Snowden SPAMMERS in this thread:
You HATE Snowden, Greenwald, and the Whistle Blowers.
We really do Get It.
We Got It from your first post.
Do you really think that repeating yourselves numerous times will make any difference.
All you can hope to achieve is :
[font size=3]"to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points."[/font]
...which is an exact quote from Woo provided in a link above.
You proved her point with your exhibition in this thread today.
Yes. We Get It.
erronis
(15,241 posts)There, did that get me in trouble too? I hope so.
Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #1)
Post removed
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)...so it's me?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Greenwald is about to expose this I heard!
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Calling someone an authoritarian isnt pejorative, it's no different than calling them a conservative or democrat or Blue Dog or an extremest lefty.
And others get away with calling posters "assholes". It's all about wielding power. But I support the jury system.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Or is that one of those sites that you think should be allowed at DU? One that you, as a Host, would never vote to lock if it was in a thread starter?
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)the alert system to hide or lock those that disagree with my world view. And DU is for politically liberal posters and doesnt need a "banned sites" list.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Yes, DU is for politically liberal posters, but we don't need politically liberal posters giving exposure and lending legitimacy to shithole sites like whale.to
Are you seriously defending the use of whale.to as a source at DU?
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)know shite about the site. I judge the post by it's content. No one is forcing you to go to the site and I dont think we need you to try to protect us from sites. You seem to work hard at finding reasons to alert instead of discussing issues.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Maybe you should learn about it, before defending it's use at DU.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and the post did not violate CS in my opinion.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)I'm glad that that particular jury had enough DUers who recognize that not everything should be appropriate at DU.
If you want anything goes, Discussionist might be better suited to your tastes.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)everyone has the same world view as you. I dont want "anything goes" but I also dont want you deciding what I can or can not see. The TOS, SOP and CS are clear and aimed at having lively, liberal discussions and I support that effort. Seems some here are abusing the system of alerting to promote their own agenda. An agenda of never holding the President or any Democrat accountable. An agenda of attacking whistle blowers, journalists and protestors that dare fight for change from this status quo that is killing, figuratively and literally, the lower classes.
How often do you alert here? Once a day? Twice a day? And how often do you actually discuss issues (hating Snowden isnt an issue)? Once a month? Maybe DU isnt the site for you.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Some have an uncanny knack for posting on alerted threads and scolding the rest of us for not being suitably indignant. It leaves a trail.
You ask some valid questions. I am genuinely mystified as well.
Response to Generic Other (Reply #362)
PeaceNikki This message was self-deleted by its author.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)where every point of view or source, no matter how right-wing, racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic or crazy should be allowed and judged on its merits.
Sorry, that's not DU. We have standards here.
You want a free-for-all? Try Yahoo. Or Discussionist.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)That's not what DU is about. We are not the BOG.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)from his outsourced location! Discussion would just distract him from his ETERNAL VIGILANCE !!!! damn where's that canadian flag patriot when you need him!
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Hows the weather up there? Still campaigning for annexation?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)This is the one and only DU account I've ever had. I've got no secrets. Can you say the same?
Sid
bobduca
(1,763 posts)as friendly and polite.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)That's gotta burn.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I must be missing all his substantive posts.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)not good for DU.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Only his knocks on some poster or on some thread or on the number of recs some thread got. That's the only kind of post of his I've seen. I would count even "I think Obama is right on this" as a post on an issue. However, as as I said, I must be missing all those.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Seriously? This is a host? Constantly hurling insults and obsessing on DU'ers does not reflect well.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 3, 2014, 12:26 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Neither disruptive, nor hurtful, not even rude...
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Regardless of whether this comment was made by a Host, it is a valid query about a practice that seems to be a problem on DU. I have wondered much the same of some members when I see alerts for comments which appear to have been made for the purpose of foisting discipline upon a member against whom the alerter seems to have an agenda rather than a simple opposing point of view. Someone needed to say it and here it is.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Regardless of where we've disagreed in the past, the poster's current comment is quite reasonable and acceptable.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid alert. Here's to hoping for a 7-0 shutout.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No comment to the Alerter. Do Not Hide.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
I was juror #5. High-five for 24 hour revocation of alerting privileges.
merrily
(45,251 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)They want to control.
merrily
(45,251 posts)If not, let's add it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)XL pipeline threads. It's clearly coordinated.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I don't really know what other place the post meant, though. Another section of DU? Another board? I have seen some signs on this board of coordination.
If there is coordination, I guess what we see on this board is the product of the best collective effort. Think about that for a second.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)it has been admitted on occasion
Caretha
(2,737 posts)that alerted. Huh Sid?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)whale.to is an odious piece-of-shit source, that should be roundly rejected by any community of progressives.
Sid
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I as a member of the DU community think your actions help to make DU suck. This is not meant to be an attack but merely an observation. I don't have a problem reading a rightwing source. I am sure if it is as evil as you say, I will be the first to rip it apart.
I recall a time that DUers were "allowed" to post without constant fear of being alerted on by the Mrs. Grundy's on this board. At one time, we trusted ourselves to have the smarts to discriminate between gold and dross. I still think we do. We do not really need "George Zimmerman-like" block watch volunteers enforcing thought control.
In other words, I don't need others deciding for me. In fact anything you denounce, I must search out for myself anyway because I do not take your word or anyone's over my own personal observations. That's just the way it is.
The more you cry wolf, the less effective you become.
You are welcome to alert on this thread. I have tried not to be rude, but I do vehemently disagree with your tactics and find them rather juvenile -- mostly because you rarely engage in any conversations on DU -- just snark and tiresome alerts.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)At DU2, mods would regularly delete those posts. At DU3, we have juries to hide those posts.
As for the rest of your post, I find it hard to express how little I care what you or your pals think of my "actions".
Sid
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)You mean the majority of DUers who disapprove of the way you work the system to try and control our thinking? You are not the sergeant-at-arms here.
Some like me have been supporting this site with monthly contributions since 2001. Does Skinner ask you to spend all your time here trying to drive me and my "pals" off? I recall he has asked people to use discretion and to apply the rules sparingly. Probably because he actually appreciates our monetary contributions to this site.
If DUers' posts suck so bad as you constantly inform us, perhaps it is you who would be better served at some other site. I am quoting you here as I have now read multiple threads where you have told people they should be at Discussionist not DU. I guess if Discussionist allows free speech as opposed to the behavior of the serial alerters on DU who target diverse views and shut down discussions they do not even participate in, you may be right.
I wonder if you go through real life eavesdropping on conversations, then shushing people up and calling them out for unorthodox thinking. It seems like busybody behavior to me.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Bullshit.
I've sent exactly 5 alerts to juries since May 16. That's about 2 a week.
Personal attack: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4965295
Personal attack: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4972664
Personal attack: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=812337
Personal attack: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5035900
(post had already been juried)
Odious source: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5037985
You'll notice only one of those alerts was for the use of a source. Anyone who uses whale.to deserves to get their post hidden. Go spend some time at whale.to if you don't believe that it's an odious source. Or don't. I don't care.
Sergeant-at-arms. Don't make me fucking laugh.
Sid
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Perhaps Dudley Do-right would be more apt?
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)or woman.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)in all my years here. And they were 1 post noobs posting profanity about us. Most of us have not made 5 alerts, plus worked MIRT and the host jobs in order to get DUers we don't agree with PPR'd.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Still think it should be allowed at DU?
Sid
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Someone posted a link to something that is less tinfoily than what is usually posted on that site, I guess. What is wrong with letting us click on the link ourselves and come back to talk about the article in question rather than the site. Let us all see for ourselves. Or do you think it will cause blindness or mental instability if I see anti-vax posts? Clearly not the best website but hardly worth bothering to alert. They are right about the cult of authority having the potential to drown out any other viewpoints.
I choose to decide for myself. If I link to a bad website, I would hope sane DUers would engage in conversation, explain what the problem is rather than rush to alert.
I post a lot fewer articles these days even though I read lots of things I think DUers might be interested in, but why bother if I am just going to be called names and alerted on everytime I post something that isn't on the approved list (something I have never even seen). I don't think I am alone.
In the days before the alert system, I often read rightwing posts here. Lots of things Palin, Fox, O'Reilly, Freepers, Cavers et al have to say gets posted here -- often from rightwing sites. Almost none of us defend them. We enjoy reading what the morans have to say at times, so we can rip them. Every once in a great while, they say something halfway intelligent. Not often though. Because I enjoy objectively discussing and learning more about almost any subject, I am more offended by the censors deciding what I can and cannot think, say or link to than I am by the occasional post from a rightwing site.
Clearly, I am not the only one who feels this way; nevertheless, it is clear this makes no difference to you. IMO, driving paying subscribers away from DU hurts DU way more than a link to some site you don't approve of.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)anti-right Wing. Everything I could see on the linked page denigrates right wing authoritarians. You still get the credit for the hide and that's all that matters I guess.
Alerts should be about the content and not someone's opinion of the site. There is no "banned site" list.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)But that doesn't mean we should be linking to his site.
There is no banned site list. There are juries who determine the Community Standards of this website. In this case, the jury decided that linking to an odious shitbag site like whale.to was a violation of those standards. And I'm glad they did.
If you think the site is fine, why not repost the link, and take your chances with a different jury?
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)that also happens to host anti-government material.
So the hide was justified. I hope whale.to gets hidden every fucking time it's posted.
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)that this is a politically liberal site where open-mindedness is important. Alerts, locks and hides should not be abused to promote certain agendas. The idea here is to leave OP's and posts if possible; err on the leave side. Let the members here decide if they want to read and discuss. There are ignore features and trash thread features. Keep censorship to a minimum.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)which is a troubling opinion for someone that is a Host to have.
Hosts are tasked with doing the housekeeping at DU. A Host that doesn't believe that anything is ever off-topic, or not appropriate for a partisan Democratic website is, well, not much of a Host.
"Let the members here decide if they want to read and discuss."
The members did decide. They decided to hide the post with the link to whale.to
Sid
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)is on those that want to lock to prove that the OP violates the SOP. The default should be to leave. And the alert system should not be used to promote an agenda.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)A host who needs an alerter to prove that a thread is off-topic is, again, not much of a Host. In my opinion of course.
And juries should absolutely be used to promote agendas. They're used to promote DU's agenda every time they hide something homophobic, or racist, or anti-Semitic, or for any number of other reasons.
You seem to be forgetting that DU is a partisan website with a specific focus. We don't allow Republicans. We don't allow people that hold certain viewpoints. We don't allow third-party advocacy. We don't allow posters to use right-wing smears against Democrats. We censor opinions and comments all the time.
You think everything should be allowed at DU, and if a poster doesn't like a topic, or a source, or a poster, they can trash the thread or ignore the poster.
In your DU, why would we even have Hosts or juries?
Sid
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)questionseverything
(9,654 posts)personas get to vote too.....
and they are never busy with anything else
they have programs where 1 person can manage 100 personas...now that would take time and practice to get good at but since some seem to be here 24/7,they have lots of time to practice
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Don't you think it's a bit counterproductive to throw out accusations that people are paid trolls simply because they are critical of Snowden and Greenwald?
To me it seems counterproductive and irresponsible. Wouldn't a better approach be to counter arguments directly with facts? That's what a discussion board is all about.
I'm already seeing accusations that some folks are paid government shills simply because they disagree with a certain point of view. This works both ways. Both sides are throwing out these accusations.
Perhaps we should have more discussion and less personal attacks and insinuations?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)unregulated information gathering on non-criminals through multiple surveillance techniques?
No real Ddemocrat would ever support this type of enterprise.
No real Ddemocrat would ever deny and denounce whistleblowers who righteously expose corrupt, harmful, covert practices and actions perpetrated by our government.
The discussion game is finished, as far as I'm concerned. There's nothing left to say in this matter, and related matters; if there was any legitimate argument for unwarranted, unregulated spying, it would have been presented long ago.
Constant personal attacks on messengers exposing corruption is not "discussion" of these issues, it's anti-democratic, pro-MIC RW propaganda. And when long recognized propaganda techniques are used to catapult these anti-democratic, pro-MIC "points of view", it compounds my perception that certain posters are deliberately posting insidious RW bullshit.
I have been involved with Occupy since the beginning. After reading anti-Occupy propaganda by certain posters, post after post, and watching these same posters attack righteous whistleblowers day after day, and after seeing many of these same posters post what, from my long lifetime POV as a liberal Yellowdog Dem, seems to be nothing but the same type of insidious RW bullshit propaganda that I've seen repeatedly since the early days of Vietnam, I have little reason to consider that certain posters are not paid trolls in service of some agency of the MIC, or, at best, are simply naive "Good Americans" who don't really understand enough about history, life, and the world, to be able to perceive that they are supporting and promoting corporate fascism and oligarchy.
Some of us are struggling for freedom and democracy. Others are struggling for fascism and 1% oligarchy. And others are struggling for fascism and oligarchy and don't even have a clue that this is what they are struggling for.
"The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. "
-Franklin D. Roosevelt, "Message from the President of the United States Transmitting Recommendations Relative to the Strengthening and Enforcement of Anti-trust Laws"
Our strategy should be not only to confront empire, but to lay siege to it. To deprive it of oxygen. To shame it. To mock it. With our art, our music, our literature, our stubbornness, our joy, our brilliance, our sheer relentlessness and our ability to tell our own stories. Stories that are different from the ones were being brainwashed to believe.
The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability.
Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them.
Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The attack the messenger game is long over; the messengers won.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)+1
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)And the quote from FDR. Thank you for posting that especially. Thank you for reminding me of what a strong Democratic president should sound like.
Broward
(1,976 posts)Cali-Dem will never reply to your post.
Your post encompasses truth. She/He can't handle the truth for whatever reason.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)But I doubt it will change any "attack the messenger" minds. They are obsessed with focusing away from the real issues.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)You are right.
This "discussion" is long over.
Righteous Post!
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and others that speak truth to power, have chosen the side of Corptocracy.
think4yourself
(837 posts)I thank you for such a succinct post.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)..are Strawmen.
You're post #1 is a classic example.
.
.
.
No Charge for the lesson.
Just trying to save you from future embarrassment,
and raise the level of discourse at DU.
--bvar22
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)what was actually said. Old, jaded and a clue to the 'thinking' for want of a better word, of the user.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...and Post #1 is a classic example.
It is an attempt to start an argument about something that NOBODY has said,
and it doesn't seem to matter to them how embarrassingly asinine their claim is.
It is also an example of something you said a year ago:
The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.
It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.
It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.
The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.
woo me with science Sun Jul 28, 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801
Unfortunately, I have helped them "hijack" and "pollute" this thread by responding to their bait.
It is only a handful, but they are ALWAYS here,
and frequently jump on the first post.
Its like they don't have a job or anything else to do beyond sit on DU punching the refresh button.
I would have to be an IDIOT to work THAT hard unless I was paid.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)You need a Certified Liberal ID card which is only given out by a select few DUers. Apparently it's an exclusive club.
If you don't have a Certified Liberal ID card, you're nothing more than a paid government propagandist and you will be excoriated for posting blue links.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)according to our worth. Of course the OP will get the most cherished and sought after gold metallic with encrusted diamonds.
I want the puce ones.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...try posting something worthwhile that can be backed up with legitimate links
instead of serial Ad Homs & adolescent attempts at snark and innuendo.
Try It.
You might like it.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
bvar22
(39,909 posts)If Snowden looses a bunch of his IQ,
and starts posting adolescent funny pix,
would you start liking him then?
Whisp
(24,096 posts)than the pathetic job he is doing now stumbling around and forgetting what lies and exaggerations he told when.
And that he's a pathetic Libertarian of the dirtbag Ron Paul kind.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The Pulitzer Prize Committee disagrees.
...but I understand how it could look that way to someone whose debating Strong Suit
is PhotoShops stolen from the Internet.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)say it again, come on.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)If I had a smilie for Spiking the Ball,
I would use it now.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)It's right there, you called me a thief.
come on, one more time! I love it!
...but I understand how it could look that way to someone whose debating Strong Suit
is PhotoShops stolen from the Internet.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I doubt it,
because that photo-shopper shows some skill, competence & intelligence.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)and add my little special somethings.
and thank you, I guess.
but now I'm sure I will have to come up with proof and show you my birth certificate.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)LOL
Figures.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)but this one:
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)everywhere they can be. Even to a teen rag! Right there on that cover is talking point #3 or perhaps that one was #4! I love it when what everyone suspects is proven to be true.
This is the 'all he wants is money' talking point.
We've seen it here.
As if being paid for one's work is a crime. Well, in some instances maybe it is, eg, the warped minds that work for the Private Security Corps and think up this stuff to try to ruin people's lives simply for doing their jobs, see HB Gary.
Did they really think that was going to, what, turn people against HIM which would mean 'not caring about the Massive Spy Program against the American People'?
How incredibly stupid of them. Even if I hated the guy, it wouldn't matter considering the magnitude of the issue, so long as he could back it up. Which of course he has.
I'm going to bookmark that one so next time I see the talking point here, which I'm sure we will, I can post it.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Stay in school.
Go to college.
Don't do drugs,
and everything will be OK.
Peace.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)http://www.bopandtigerbeat.com/terms-of-service/
You DO understand the meaning of Copyright?
Yes?
Do you also know that DU prohibits the re-posting of Copyrighted material without attribution
on THIS site?
Now Class,
what do we call lifting Copyrighted material from a Commercial Site,
and re-posting that copyrighted material without attribution to a 3rd site?
.
.
Anyone?
.
.
.
I'll wait.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)still bullshit.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)people like Bieber. Great source!! Well, if you're a preteen I suppose.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)is the preteen.
She/he still posts them occasionally but when I see that I reply with my updated version.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)you've already made up your mind.
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)Well done Whisp!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)like looters and scavengers, right?
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)For your audience however the question remains whose violation of copyright was a true act of civil disobedience with the purpose of supporting the rights of the citizens of the United States?
And whose was a lame attempt at humor?
Whisp
(24,096 posts)that deal in stolen goods then.
lol.
thank you.
That was enjoyable.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I know copyright law pretty well. I violate it constantly. Your Tiger Beat cover might be violating copyright as it is not parodying the magazine but the politicians. Perhaps you could argue it has transformative value or is non-commercial. It certainly is derivative. I think in the case of Earl G. (the one name you did not mention who actually makes DUs art), he is using photos of the individuals to mock them, not other copyrighted backgrounds (Tiger Beat cover). Unless it is 100% in the public domain, all of us walk a tightrope between artist and thief when we appropriate another's work for whatever purpose.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Well, carry on. No worries. You will probably never be in a position to need to have all the rights to the work you assemble.
Peace Out
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Years ago, a rightwinger threatened me with legal action and a DMCA takedown of one of my pieces posted on DU and Buzzflash. He reported me to Disney. My piece was both transformative and parody -- although a good lawyer could possibly argue otherwise.
All I did was exchange Clinton's eyes for Bush -- correcting an error, wouldn't you say? No matter. The accusation of theft was leveled. So, I have been a copyright thief in the service of the truth even if I took the risk with very little real fear of reprisal or in the belief that my non-commercial parody was protected.
In some ways, Snowden's "theft" of classified secrets to make a political statement is no different than our "fair use" of copyrighted material -- just way more effective.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)I have been laughing for 5 minutes.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)...that poisoning has been a resounding success.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)Apparently there have been so many "Undergrounders championing the surveillance state" - but maybe you can provide links, because I seem to have missed them.
TIA!
P.S. Please ignore the above request if your idea of "championing the surveillance state" means someone who disagrees with GG and/or thinks Snowden is an idiot. I realize that many on DU have decreed that disagreement with either man is equivalent to embracing the idea of domestic spying - but being as I live in the real world, I am unfamiliar with this black-and-white world so many of you seem to live in.
JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)Very very well said.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I'll probably get a hide for naming names but if you haven't seen these posters, and others, continuously defend the NSA surveillance on many many threads then you aren't paying attention.
I'm too tired to search for them but feel free now that I've given you some names to search
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Some of us think that Snowden is full of shit, and that the NSA should be tightly controlled. This might be a different viewpoint than you, but it does not make me an "NSA defender."
Awaiting the blue links.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)often they have been debunked? I haven't counted, but I believe there are about six of them.
Whenever they are posted, AGAIN, I think of HB Gary for some reason. It was hard to find anything damaging on Greenwald, so they dug deep and ended up twisting facts he himself has been open about. You have to sympathize a little when someone is trying to get a contract to smear someone and they can't find much of anything I imagine. So resorting to twisting facts is all they can do, no? I wonder who ended up getting that contract after HB Gary was exposed?
But more interesting is how they try to use these talking points to distract from the issues he writes about, over and over again, hoping to make it about him, to derail threads and redirect the conversation away from the issues.
After failing so often you would think by now there would be some new talking points, but so far, not even one, same old talking points.
But maybe you haven't seen them? I doubt they are being paid, just more than willing to try to discredit anyone who dares to go outside the Corporate controlled media with some facts. After all once the media was controlled, I suppose they thought they had accomplished their goal.
The solution to all this is for our Govt Agencies not to do anything they have to work so hard to try to hide. Hopefully soon we will get there.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)it myself as I am not afraid to respond to people about anything.
I'm sure you remember those constantly repeated 'stories' about Greenwald though. He, like me, is not afraid to respond to people, he has, to those repeating those false stories, and he did so very effectively.
Puglover
(16,380 posts)This from the poster you are responding to in another thread.
" I tend to find that the more invested a poster is in the mythology of Comrade Eddie, the less actual political activism on behalf of Democrats they do."
" I tend to find that we are the ones going to our ward meetings. We are the ones out driving people to the polls Election Day"
"I tend to find" I have my ideas of exactly where the poster "found" these er uh "facts" but I'll keep it to myself.
I swear that ludicrous post had me LOL.
And you just have to love the lofty " Sabrina, you know that I do not answer your questions. Nor do I read your posts. nt"
Too f'n funny.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Mmm, a thought just occurred to me ..... lol!
Yes, but I am not actually talking TO people who 'don't read' my posts. I have said this many times, I use such posts for people who might not have all the facts and who just lurk here. So I always appreciate them as a kind of jumping off point to inform other people of facts whenever I get the opportunity. I don't believe I ever hid that
And to kick good threads of course.
merrily
(45,251 posts)And, yes, I have seen approvals of it. Only this evening, I responded to one along the lines of "It's okay because it's never abused and limited to foreigners, etc." (I had responded to similar statements by the same poster before.)
Posts like that have nothing to do with Snowden and Greenwald and everything to do with justifying the actions of this administration. For, as woome has shown, the reaction was different when another President was in the Oval Office.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)back into the WH.
merrily
(45,251 posts)You might not get the same scope of condemnations because some of the condemnations would now reflect badly on Obama, too. So, I imagine you would have to continue to defend at least some the things in which President Obama engaged.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)isn't defending the surveillance state.
But you got nothing else when each new revelation comes around that the hero sammiches and freedumb fighters, ES and GG, are making shit up so accusing critics of working for the government comes into play because that is the only place to go. How ridiculous.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Ridiculing the hair-on-fire brigade is not defending the NSA.
You've made an accusation about me. Back it up.
Sid
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Constitutional rights? That little roly poly laughing guy doesn't say a whole lot about anything. So something that doesn't include that emoticon which has, to your credit, become your very own signature.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Kinda like how you accused me of using the Washington Times as a source and then ran away with your tail between your legs, when asked to provide evidence of your accusation.
Sid
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)don't obsess over what people said on an internet forum five years ago, or go looking up their comments to 'prove' anything. If you're that sensitive, then not sure why you would be on a forum like this where most of us get accused of all sorts of things all the time. I don't care what people accuse me of or what names they call me, and I've been wrongfully accused of far worse than using a rightwing source. It just doesn't bother me, I always consider THAT source and just laugh at them.
I'm not going to search your comments to find out if you ever condemned the gross violations of our Constitutional Rights, I can only go by what I have seen from you when the subject comes up, and all I ever have seen is snide remarks directed at anyone who supports the Whistle Blowers and Journalists who have revealed these criminal activities by our Govt.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I'm not calling you a liar, but it would be nice if you backed up your assertion.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)NSA surveillance but choose to post post after post of hatred for Snowden.
They must have a good reason to avoid discussing the NSA.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)What do YOU think of the massive spying on the American people by our own government agencies? I don't recall you ever stating what your opinion is, all I ever see from the Snowden bashers is childish personal attacks on him and on Greenwald. They are so boring at this point, that the ONLY effect they are having is to gain MORE support for both of them.
Estevan
(70 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)good to see you here.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)championing the surveillance state.
That is not the same as pointing out or criticizing -- in a non personally insulting manner -- something they did that might have been unnecessarily damaging to actual national security. Or defending why, to some extent we need to sacrifice some measure of privacy to be safe.
But demeaning people who believe what they did was appropriate and necessary, and digging through the dirty laundry of anyone like Greenwald and Snowden who step forward as whistleblowers and/or journalists is de facto championing the surveillance state.
God forbid what Daniel Ellsberg would be subjected to by some DUers if he had done what he did when a Democrat was in office.
reddread
(6,896 posts)indisputably, undeniable.
God have no mercy on their souls.
oh wait.
Weasels aint got no soul.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)You rock!!!!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)anyone who infers otherwise is an asshole Libertarian!!!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)But it appears Glenn can't.
They exposed what they exposed, the government is working on doing things differently, so why not move on?
Because Glenn needs attention. Thus his followers go insane when he gets pusbback on DU (It's OK for Obama but Glenn the Libertarian should get no hostility) and get more and more hyperbolic about police states, totalitarianism, and other nonsense.
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)just means trying harder to not get caught and cover it up differently.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)hoo boy and HOWDY do we have some naive DUers
Response to Skittles (Reply #77)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Of course, GG is out to make money. So is every other freaking professional journalist - or anyone else who works for a living.
Just because he doesn't earn his living playing yes-man to authorities doesn't mean he's "seeking attention." He's just earning his money the way he sees fit - by reporting on and/or investigating topics many in the pablum-belching M$M won't.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Not every other freaking 'professional' (*cough) journalist does that.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)uncovering and exposing Governmental Over Reach,
and winning Pulitzer Prizes for Public Service!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)and vile Libertarian natures.
2. GG did not win that Prize, the Guardian did. He could win the one called Most Likely to Annoy and Lie.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)then WHY are you and your DU friends SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO upset,
and working so hard to try and poison any thread in which they are mentioned?
with your vapid and transparent Two Minutes of Hate?
IF you are looking for those who look stupid,
try looking at those who attempt to deny that the expose' of Governmental Over Reach produced by Snowden & Greenwald WON a Pulitzer Prize for Public Service.
Trying to separate Snowden & Greenwald from that Pulitzer Prize for Public Service is laughable, and perfectly exposes the length and depth of the denial of those involved.
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery
Snowden & Greenwald didn't win a Pulitzer Prize
Whisp
(24,096 posts)He is now working for Omidyar, another crud encrusted Libertarian that happens to be very rich and now has a piece of that action. You think Pierre Pierre the Billionaire would have hired GG without GG's little extra package he carries with him?
How anyone could elevate these people to hero and stardom is what is astounding. Charlatans, liars and freaks that are terrible keeping their stories straight. And Fuck Ron Paulers.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...or admit that you are just making stuff up again.
I'll wait.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Checkbook Journalism & Leaking to the Highest Bidders
Sibel Edmonds | December 8, 2013
For the past twelve years I have been known as one of the most notorious government whistleblowers, even given the title of The Most Classified Person in the History of the United States by a civil liberties organization. I am the founder and director of a whistleblower organization that includes over 150 national security whistleblowers. I have known and represented over 150 national security whistleblowing cases in Congress and the media. And let me tell you this, I have never seen a case that even comes close to this bizarrely unethical and despicable case.
---
Now, here is what happens next: The whistleblower hands over these documents, and goes through a surreal escape journey. So surreal that even Hollywood could not have matched it. Of the handful of reporters who were entrusted with 50,000 documents, a few do nothing. By that I mean absolutely nothing. A couple from this entrusted group does a little bit more. They meet with a few mainstream media outlets, they spend many hours around the table with their mega companies mega attorneys and U.S. government mega representatives (the same government that is implicated in these documents). Then what happens? Here is what happens:
During the six-month period since they received the documents and the whistleblowers story broke, the supposed-journalists released 1% (One Percent) of these documents:
---
GG and Co. are 1%ers.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Neither Greenwald's nor Snowden's name was mentioned in what you provided.
The whole thing was a slam against "some" Whistle Blowers.
Greenwald was an employee of the Guardian long before Snowden's expose of Government Over Reach. He published in HIS paper.
That is what Journalists do.
Post support for your claim that Greenwald is selling stolen documents,
or admit you are just making stuff up.
[font size=3]"They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."[/font]--- Ben Franklin.
I agree with Ben.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)And this doesn't sound like the Greenwald we all know, right? It's another Greenwald, in another multi-universe:
Armstead
(47,803 posts)less personalized about it, and actually dealt with the issues they raised, there would be a lot less polarization in the discussions.
National Security, especially post 9-11, is a subject with many grey areas and a lot of room for interpretation and differences of opinion. And it DOESN'T fall into the template of Party Politics, Obama's Performance or even liberal and conservative.
It transcends all of that, and if some right wing libertarian wants to protect our privacy and freedom from Big Brother, I'll goddamn for sure agree with them -- even if I may disagree with them on everything else.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)We need to whack back the NSA, the CIA and every other intelligence and military agency, by any means necessary and with any help we can get.
Logical
(22,457 posts)That needed exposed! Good for you!
Why move on, let's see what else he has!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)know of. He has READERS, WHEN he writes something that is relevant to Democratic values, such as exposing Bush policies that are STILL IN PLACE despite the fact that people elected Democrats to end those criminal policies.
If Glenn were an elected official we would CARE about HIM personally, but we don't, we care that every decent Journalist from him to Matt Taibbi, to Jeremy Scahill and even Moyers, has been attacked, NOT from the Right, but here on this Democratic forum. And as you should be able to see, Democrats will not stand for the silencing, or the attempts to silence journalists.
But you turned it into the old 'followers' routine, intended to insult those who are standing up for this COUNTRY. It isn't working, that should be obvious and for you to continue to try to insult those who are and have been fighting to END these Bush policies for over a decade now, is not going to have the intended result.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)that doesn't extraordinarily rendition people, drone them, and has rainbows flying out of its ass, thank you.
lark
(23,097 posts)even when it's all sent and received in the USA. I want a pony that doesn't use illegal surveillance for political reasons.
Don't think that's too much to ask.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)I guess you win the thread.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)a racist. Given the number of people I've seen called racists (or more precisely, hinted at being racists) as a result of speaking in opposition to some administration policy, I can only conclude that all opposition to the president is based, at least partly, in racism.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Even I'm becoming Sarcasm Impaired.
Of course Snowden, Greenwald, and the Guardian are all RACISTS,
along with anyone who supports their Pulitzer Prize Winning Expose' on the NSA, the Surveillance/Security State and Government Over Reach.
...OH Yeah, and OWS too!!!
It MUST be Racism...because what else could it BE???!!!!!
hughee99
(16,113 posts)It has the added bonus of allowing one to completely ignore any facts from the complaint itself.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Response to woo me with science (Original post)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Response to Agschmid (Reply #24)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Response to Agschmid (Reply #28)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)You see to want to know the collective opinions of GG here on DU, but I haven't seen much offered up of your opinion. This isn't an attack, I'm not out to get you, I am just trying to understand where you are coming from with this.
Response to Agschmid (Reply #31)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Welcome back officially I guess.
Response to Agschmid (Reply #34)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Response to Agschmid (Reply #36)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)And my posts aren't really all that threatening. All in all I am actually a pretty friendly guy.
So back to GG what up with the curiosity, writing a paper or something?
Response to Agschmid (Reply #38)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Anyways I'm off to bed, good luck with the GG stuff.
Hopefully you get the answers you seek.
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Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #40)
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Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)That was the same person that created the Greenwald thread...wondering why people are critical of him.
It was my alert that got him....
JI7
(89,248 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)...but he racked up like 75 posts...most of them praising Greenwald and Snowden.
Here's a thread he created which is now locked...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025035849
JI7
(89,248 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)We can't see his posts, so there's no way to know.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)'restraint' in his 'innocent' question and conduct in that other thread.
I knew he/she was doing everything in their power and grit their teeth trying to not explode against GG critics and to hide the real personality. Could feel it through the monitor. Maybe it was GG himself, but he's too busy counting money to bother with DU.
Ha, I knew it wouldn't last and the gasket would blow.
Cha
(297,192 posts)in a puff of smoke and mirrors.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)and appreciated.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Bravo.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)Because they make it clear that there is a concerted effort to do anything apart from address the NSA revelations seriously.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I really don't care.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,311 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)And a most excellent one at that!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Or believes in literal "white privilege" as well.....amirite?
Well, I got news for you. You are DEAD wrong. Not everybody on here is a fan of Snowden, or his actions. In fact, if anything, I'd be willing to venture that just as many do not believe that AGW is inevitably going to doom humanity to extinction(or even capable of same in the first place), there are at least a plurality, if not a majority, who are not such fans of Snowden's little escapades.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)It's so much easier when you out yourselves this way and I don't have to read the drivel......
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 2, 2014, 08:14 AM - Edit history (1)
Or am I merely just a mindless O-bot who has to protect dear leader at all costs?
For the first time ever on DU last week, I got "checked" on my leftist bona fides...Is that truly how far this site has descended? Will this be the new normal now?
By all means, please keep going...Broadbrushing is always an easier way out than trying to discuss the issue like an adult...But I will say I'd hope you'd have the stones to accuse me directly instead of this beating-around-the-bush silliness...Life is too short and I do not have enough hours in my day...
You know the ultimate irony? By making this thread vaguely accusing certain unnamed DUers of being government spies/trolls/propagandists/whatever, you're unwittingly employing another astroturfing tactic, which is to foster widespread paranoia on a message board with cries of "infiltration!!" or something similar...This has a twofold purpose: 1. Eroding the collective unity of a site since less posters will trust or believe one another, and 2. Effectively discrediting your debate opponents, since once that seed of suspicion takes root and starts to spread, the default last word to every argument eventually becomes "Yeah, but you're an infiltrator so of course you'd say that!"
(FYI the message board trolling playbook has been around for a long, long time...We were discussing it when I first came to DU in '03)
EDIT: 93 recs and the OP is nowhere to be found...Can't say I'm surprised at either...
Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #20)
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JustAnotherGen
(31,818 posts)In a funny round about way - it's why I've gone a bit quiet lately. But it's the Snowden/Greenwald fan club that has caused that . . . they've got me twitchy.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)the op does not single any1 out
the op does not say all posters that defend the nsa and/or belittlle snowden/greenwald are paid personas
the op makes the factual claim that some posters are probably managed personas...we know this from the hb gary dump and it is actually a compliment to du to be targeted just as it was a "compliment" to bradblog and greenwald to be targeted by chamber of commerce
just to be clear, are you saying, you do not believe there are any paid posters on du?
or are you saying there are no paid posters anywhere on the net?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)If the OP truly believes there are paid infiltrators here, he needs to start identifying them by name, collecting some documentation to make his case (i.e., patterns in posting history, IP addresses, suspicious activity on other sites, etc.) and submit that information to Skinner in a PM...That's how we at least used to do it in the old days...
A generic broadbrush smear of everyone who has 'X' opinion of 'Y' issue as an agent of 'Z' without supporting evidence is immature, counterproductive and cowardly (the OP damn well knows this, which is why he hasn't responded to me)...It's not the kind of accusation to be thrown around in a casual manner...
And FWIW, I take it personally because I've long been the biggest Greenwald critic on DU, and I've been tarred with the "propagandist" label with increasing regularity for daring to ask an occasional question that goes against the grain, or trying to reconcile the gaping holes in Snow-Wald's story...
I challenge the OP to either put up his proof of infiltration, or to STFU and do the honorable thing by deleting this shitfest of a thread...
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)so it is hard to understand where you are coming from
trying to identify paid personas would be a waste of time, for every1 booted more would appear and knowing they exist is enough
the op does not say every1 defending nsa/ defaming greenwald and snowden are personas...he says some probably are considering the evidence collected
since the hb gary dump we have KNOWN the ptb use managed personas trying to shift public opinion....would really be insulting to think du was not important enough to infiltrate
on the chance you do not know what the hb gary dump was about, here are several articles in following link
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8351
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and if the OP wasn't talking about ALL Snow-Wald critics, why even make this thread (especially with such a provocative title)? What purpose does it serve? Can't you pretty much make a similar thread about ANY group of posters potentially having a direct shadowy link to a governmental propaganda campaign? And even if the OP wasn't referring to ALL Snow-Wald critics, clearly several of the agreeing posters in this thread take it to mean "all"...
And maybe you missed it where I said I've been slapped with that label several times before? I'm only going to brush it off so many times before I start to defend myself...
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I am disappoint
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Or sister. Don't know which.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I know this is happening, and that the general populous is unaware of.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)the paper of a young law student with the same mistake, so it really stood out to me. Forgive me for being pedantic.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm usually a fanatic about proper spelling, I have no idea where I went with that misspelling LOL!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)You will know them by their works...and we do.
K&R....and that clapper thing.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)DU overwhelmingly supports the actions of Greenwald and Snowden, as shown in virtually every poll posted here.
Fact is a majority of American oppose Snowden. But "among those who say theyve closely followed the story," the NBC poll found that 49% oppose Snowdens actions and 33% support them.
http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-poll-oppose-leak-174819082.html
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Most Americans are working like rats in a wheel to keep their heads above water and afford food and shelter for their children. When they come home exhausted at the end of the day, they turn on the corporate teevee and are deluged with corporate propaganda and Snowden-smear.
Most Americans oppose what the NSA has been doing, even though they drown in corporate swill. They may not know what to think about Snowden, since the corporate messaging has been so deliberately vicious and misleading.
Following his interview the other night, the first exposure many have had to his arguments without their being processed through a pro-NSA, corporate filter, there was a marked shift toward support.
DU has it right, as this community of (mostly) liberals usually does.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I see this is your first reply in this thread you created.
Can you please reply to me above.
I was simply looking for clarification.
Thanks in advance.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)quantified.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The OP had tried to dig up my older posts not too long ago.
The fact is that the OP has a tough time addressing direct questions like the one I posed above. The OP has only replied to one person in this thread.
I think it's hilarious actually.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Reuters) - Roughly one in three Americans say the former security contractor who leaked details of top-secret U.S. surveillance activity is a patriot and should not be prosecuted, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Wednesday.
Some 23 percent of those surveyed said former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden is a traitor while 31 percent said he is a patriot. Another 46 percent said they did not know.
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Let's try a poll from a source that doesn't have White House connections.
More Americans see man who leaked NSA secrets as 'patriot' than traitor: Poll
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/12/us-usa-security-poll-idUSBRE95B1AF20130612
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and today they've magically gone back to being White House mouthpiece shills?
I can't even keep up who's on what side anymore...Even the DU consensus on whether the NYT and WaPo are brave and bold or meek and subservient seems to shift by the hour...
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)It's a vicious circle and you're thinking tells me that you're still in it. Good luck.....
[center]''The data stream has been corrupted, return to first principles.'' ~Terence McKenna[/center]
roomtomove
(217 posts)are like our elections. They are simply an indication of the ignorance and prejudices of half the people in this country, to wit:
approximately 50% of the electorate voted for:
Nixon
Reagan
Bush I
Bush II
Romney
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...and another poll clearly shows that Americans Under the age of 6 believe in Santa Clause.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Jesus
QuestForSense
(653 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I'm thankful for folks like him on DU
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)K&R
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You eloquently stated what most of us have thought in our own minds.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...is one of the reasons I find it so difficult to stay engaged on this site between elections.
Yeah... anyone who doesn't agree with you on Greenwald and Snowden is some kind of government operative or something deployed here because what people on DU are saying about things is of such vital importance it's keeping the national intelligence apparatus up nights.
Couldn't possibly be that any actual posters here maybe had slight issues with the fact that among their activities was the disclosure of information directed at sabotaging actual legitimate overseas intelligence activities against actual legitimate intelligence targets... like say the Chinese... or that that had exactly squat to do with any claimed concern about citizens constitutional rights or civil liberties.
Nope... the *real* explanation is it's agents of Big Brother coming to get everyone...
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)...that someone might actually disagree with them on an anonymous online message board like DU.
So they come up with notion that the person disagreeing is a paid government operative.
It's so damn ridiculous that you just gotta laugh.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)would masquerade as a fringe conspiracy-monger, gin up a lot of attaboys amongst other gummint fringe conspiracy-monger-agents, then represent his or her fringe conspiracies as the general consensus - thereby driving a wedge between otherwise like-minded individuals.
Of course, a sleeper agent posting push polls would square the circle.
That's the way I'd do it.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I can only speak for myself, but I am totally open to the idea that people might think what Greenwald and Snowden was wrong for one reason or another.
And I'm okay with anyone who believes -- for real substantive reasons -- that either tey went overboard in what they released or who may believe that we need a whole lotta surveillance on average citizens and sacrifice our privacy for the sake of security.
But my own hackles get raised when it gets personalized as pro or anti Obama, or Greenwald and Snowden get demonized, and anyone who defends then as being Anti-Democrat Libertarian Fellow Travelers.
And conversely, if someone who is right-wing believes in protecting the right to privacy against Intrusive Big Brother Surveillance, I'll agree with them on that, even if I disagree with them on everything else.
Response to gcomeau (Reply #58)
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Response to Post removed (Reply #78)
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NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)... that the only people who talk about "embarrassing Obama" are the ones who got behind Greenwald/Snowden in the first place because they thought GG and Eddie would embarrass Obama?
That's been an epic fail - but some people keep bringing up the possibility, ever hopeful that it might become a reality.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)It's pretty obvious. Same posters, same crowd who recs their posts, and the same old right wing talking points in many cases. They are also the same people who decided that if you don't supper their ideas, and their tow heroes, they you can't possible be a "real" liberal. Seems like every week they have some new meme, last week it was anyone that uses GG instead of Greewalds name are homophobic. I guess this week anyone who might disagree are paid shills for the NSA!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)And the more Snowden and GG dig themselves digger into the hole of lies and misinformation, the twitchier and more ridiculous the Noticed get with their ridiculous ways to stay off the topic that GG and Snowden are nothing but low down scamming liars and opportunists.
frylock
(34,825 posts)while the surveillance state will be here long after. many of us will be working to "embarrass" whoever it is that takes up the mantel, whether that be Clinton or Bush III.
paulkienitz
(1,296 posts)He inherited it and his successor will inherit it. The issue is about him, temporarily, only in that he is not fixing it right now. He has responsibility for today, but in the end the issue is much bigger than any single president or administration, and what position one has on this has nothing to do with which side is currently in the white house.
2banon
(7,321 posts)hmm. Strange thing to hang your established creds on.
GeorgeGist
(25,320 posts)when did the US declare war on the Chinese?
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...the one where it says when not in a state of war we shutter the CIA and NSA because there's nothing for them to do.
Those Are Not Just Wartime Agencies With Wartime Activities. The Chinese are hacking the US. A LOT. And they haven't declared war either, or have you missed that along with that memo you're looking for?
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Just wondering. I mean, the lies, they're easily debunked. But who has the time or energy?
blm
(113,052 posts)so, he had to rely on a whole group of others to spread the 'Obama is no different than Bush' message on the internet.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Those attacking post have become laughable. Most of us can see through it, it's just that those attacking him are louder is all. BTW, I was looking at one post in another thread that had a mocking video that didn't say at all what they claimed it said. It would be funny if it weren't so damn sad.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)... for next seasons TV blockbuster series.
The storyline has a dark, brooding quality the True Liberals fighting for truth and justice on a political message board, consistently thwarted in their efforts by the Reality-Based Community.
Youve GOT to get the guy from V for Vendetta to do the voice-over narration for the episode opener: Those who build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines. That is some killer stuff right there!
If you need mock-ups for the costumes, I know a guy who does absolutely awesome work with tinfoil hats he can make them so unobtrusive, even the people wearing them dont know theyre parading around with three rolls of Reynolds Wrap on their head. Really.
The Greenwald character can stay the smarmy, self-serving opportunist is always a love-to-hate-him hit with the audience. Im thinking William Atherton you know, the guy who played the sleazy journalist in the first two Die Hard flicks. I dont know about his availability, but Im sure you can call his agent and work out the details.
It's no accident that the very small group of the loudest smearers of Greenwald are also overwhelmingly the most reliable attackers of liberals
Good start youre going to want to develop this a bit more. How about a scene where people who think GG is a pompous ass are hauled into the public square and burned at the stake because they used a homophobic slur by identifying him by his initials? My tinfoil hat guy knows a guy who knows a guy who does special effects with fire no real Liberals need be harmed in the making of this series. Just PM me, and Ill give you the guy who knows a guys number.
I realize that pilot episodes are on a strict budget. Id suggest using stock footage of Christians talking about being persecuted you can just overdub statements like because they wished me Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas to sound like because they told me to STFU on a website instead of agreeing with my paranoia or some such. The outraged facial expressions will be exactly the same, so you wont have to waste any time/effort/money trying to alter the visuals.
I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the whole DU overwhelmingly supports the actions of Greenwald and Snowden, as shown in virtually every poll posted here tack but youre going to have to get a really good number cruncher to make that even remotely believable along with convincing the audience that what gets said on DU has any relevance to the real world. BIG challenge but Im sure you can deal with it in the same way you always do by ignoring reality.
Yeah, okay a few flaws in your premise, but nothing that cant be overcome with the right sets, costumes and props.
Id add in some references to Area 51, the Bermuda Triangle, and the Loch Ness Monster just to capture the attention of your target demographic right off the top. And maybe some cool marketing gadgets like an if-you-act-NOW! Limited time ONLY! decoder ring that spells out secret messages to the people who dont know theyre being monitored 24/7 by the NSA, but so desperately want to believe it.
This baby has a LOT of potential. It appeals to the hunger of those who can only be satiated by the idea that they arent alone in their paranoia, and that certain people on a certain website are out to get them, right along with Agent Mike - who, as we all know, has devoted every waking moment of his life to monitoring DUer's thoughts as they type them, and will round them up for the re-education camps secretly funded by FEMA.
As one response here so precisely put it: I know this is happening, and that the general populous is unaware of. THIS is your target audience those who want - no, NEED - to believe they are part of an elite group who see things others dont.
Youve got a winner here, Woo and dont let the Reality-Based Community tell you any different.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)Response to Lars39 (Reply #82)
Post removed
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Nance's blistering summation or your response to it.
Both had me rolling.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)all those words. To me, they're the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)A HyperDramatic, Wailing Rant devoid of substance or support.
Gawd save me from lengthy, dramatic inanity.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)bobduca
(1,763 posts)Funny how that phrase has been twisted into service as an insult for the left.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)And that was a shitty hide on your post below.
Sid
brush
(53,776 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Your dismissive tone is insulting to people who are not conspiracy theorists but who do have a genuine concern for the right to privacy, due process, and all those quaint notions.
The issue of the extent and nature of the National Security State is totally legitimate subject of debate. It transcends who is president, party loyalty and all that otehr stuff, including left-right divides.
It is TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY 100 Percent legitimate to worry that the government is going overboard with its surveillance and invasions of privacy and disregard of legal niceties. That's been a perennial concern -- and is often shown to be true. (Hoover and MLK, for example.)
And it has become an issue of increased magnitude since 9-11. Why the hell should average citizens be forced to face the prospect of being monitored, electronically followed or strip-searched when they fly to visit Grandma because tey somehow got on a Watch List.....etc.
As I recall, when GW was president, complaints and warnings about those things were generally accepted by almost everyone on DU, and it wasn't considered "disloyal" when people raised red flags about Bush and Cheney's overreach. THAT wasn't lumped together with Alex Jones Black Helicopter Paranoia.
Why now?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)NSA and other security services. One should question the effects on the 4th amendment. Absolutely.
But this OP isn't about that---it's about "persona management" at DU and seems a bit paranoid.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I know that "persona management" and manipulation of discussions for hidden agendas does go on, but I don't assume that's at the base of all the disagreeable tone of the discussions of the issue. I wouldn't have necessarily described it in the same way as the OP.
But I also don't think lumping everyone (including the OPer) who has those concerns into the Black helicopter camp is helpful either.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)us, as Democrats, is gains at the midterms.
War Horse
(931 posts)Much needed in this debate, in all fora, in fact, not just on DU. It's weird how fast this has gone from "this thing sure needs a closer look" to the level of "the NSA is spying on everyone", and if you question Greenwald's motives you're either some sort of brainwashed authoritarian or an establishment plant.
And it works the other way around as well. I get that using terms like "Greensnow" and "GreenGod" or whatever hardly adds anything constructive to the debate.
And the whole thing is sad to me, really. Because this really is an important issue, and everything becomes muddied.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You just made a thread with the word "Greenwald" in it, worth reading!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
At least this joke of a thread was good for something.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Thank you for considering us here at FOX Entertainment Division for your fictional rendition of er... so many other teevee shows and movies that have already bombed. So please don't take this rejection of your script proposal personally. But, really.
I understand some areas of the country still have community teevee programs where maybe a local community college might be interested in tackling such a difficult subject, that you gave a real yeoman's attempt at cracking. So why not try there?
- Thanks, and keep hacking away!
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 2, 2014, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)
C-
Not that it needs paraphrasing of course.
Edit due to stupid Ipad blurp.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Other than facts and evidence, these nuts have nothing.
Am I right, or am I right?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Cha
(297,192 posts)"Good start youre going to want to develop this a bit more. How about a scene where people who think GG is a pompous ass are hauled into the public square and burned at the stake because they used a homophobic slur by identifying him by his initials? My tinfoil hat guy knows a guy who knows a guy who does special effects with fire no real Liberals need be harmed in the making of this series. Just PM me, and Ill give you the guy who knows a guys number."
When Greenwald met Snowden..
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Really.
Bring it on, sockpuppets!
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Almost like bots...
NuttyFluffers
(6,811 posts)thanks!
Anarcho-Socialist
(9,601 posts)TBF
(32,056 posts)I feel like your posts should be required reading.
We are going through some very serious changes in this country as the billionaires lead us into "globalization".
It is bad enough that so many are losing jobs and security, but now all our communications are being analyzed as well.
It is amazing how close Orwell was to the mark ...
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)He has met a few Republicans that he's a big fan of, though.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)...respect said person is though
regards
Fearless
(18,421 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)xchrom
(108,903 posts)bobduca
(1,763 posts)to annoy the soulless astroturfers here.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,733 posts)I'm still waiting for my May check, which they ASSURE me "is in the mail". They've never been late before.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I'll K & R.
Dead on, Woo, although I do think a lot of them have their ego wrapped up in this particular president and/or the Democratic Party and that saying anything negative about either truly wounds them and they lash out. My psychological analysis worth exactly what you paid for it.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Yet most of them I believe are misguided people who think they are doing the right thing. As we have seen recently, many people rush out and give their opinion and insist that their opinion is correct. No matter the evidence, all of it is spin about an anti-Obama conspiracy or whatever. The point is that they honestly believe that their position is the one that resists the Rethugs. I say lately because how many people have denounced the effort to get Shinseki to resign? How many have labeled the entire thing the sole and complete purview of the GOP? At least the Democrats in Washington who have put a moment to consider this matter into good use. Because the knee jerk response of resisting the GOP would have us defending the indefensible.
You see, if Greenwald and Snowden are RW tools designed from birth to oppose President Obama, then the blatant violations of the 4th Amendment are perfectly acceptable, because obviously it's being used on the RW. These posters I call the misguided people hate the RW so much that they would take any indefensible side of any issue so long as the RW was on the other side. Logic, common sense, history, even law does not matter. All that matters is opposing the RW on every issue.
The Bush Administration spied. That was awful, horrible, and was an impeachment offense. The Obama Administration conducts the exact same programs. That is a vital defense against Terrorism because if something had happened while President Obama was in office the RW would blame him for not doing everything he could to protect this nation. I think that many of those who post have not considered the issue in its larger implication. These exact programs will be in place for the next President unless we stop them now. The next President may be Hillary, or some other Democrat. But it may be another RW type, the only advantage to that being that at least Democrats would be united again in protecting the 4th Amendment. The same people who are smearing Greenwald and Snowden now, would be shouting that the theoretical RW President in my scenario be impeached on January 21 2017 because of this spying.
This is the danger when your focus is entirely upon opposing your enemy on every issue for fear of losing even one. This is why we must have principals, core beliefs on issues we will not change with the shifting of the winds. If you oppose something, it is not because of political gain, short term gain. You oppose it because your Core Beliefs, your central moral anchor guides you. I am opposed to Racism. Not because the RW uses it as a tool to scare some of their supporters to the poll. But because it is immoral and indefensible in my mind. I support a Woman's right to choose. Not because the RW opposes it. But because I believe a woman should have the right to do with her body as she pleases. I support Gun Control, not because the RW opposes it, but because I believe that the world is far too dangerous now, and the idea that we take nothing from these lessons is troubling.
My core beliefs change only when someone makes a reasoned argument that causes me to examine my fundamental assumptions. It doesn't change when the party in power does. I opposed war under Bush. I oppose war under President Obama. I oppose spying under Bush, I oppose it under President Obama. The party in the White House does not affect my core beliefs, any more than the smearing of the messenger changes my opinions. It shouldn't change anyone's opinions, but for some reason, sadly it seems to. In that many "Democrats" are little more than fans of football teams. Their team is the best, because of some indefinable reason. Before every game, fans of opposing teams will be talking trash, and after the game fights will often break out as if the fan did something to cheat the defeated out of a victory. It troubles me to see the people who support the same party I do become little more than lunatic sports fans, who's worth is defined not by principals or beliefs, but by the color of the team uniforms.
freebrew
(1,917 posts)it explains exactly the way I feel about the issue. Thank you.
When I see posters attacking the people involved instead of the action, it reminds me of tactics used by the RW.
Snowden and Greenwald are not the important actors here, their deeds are. I could give a rat's ass as to his political beliefs or his real intent. He did it and I think we will be better for it.
I see it as no less important than Ellsberg's actions, perhaps more so.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)this time I must agree with you
loudsue
(14,087 posts)This is what has creeped me out about the new DU. In the early years of DU, before we became a well-known force of nature, we had some posers/infiltrators, but NOTHING like what we have had in the past few years.
I don't know how the site admins/owners could stop it from happening, even if they were inclined to. It's professional, insidious, and depressing.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)*yes*.
K and R
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Out of all of the membership.
When even legitimate criticisms of Mr. Greenwald are met with a storm of accusations that the person doing the criticizing are (paid propagandists, right-wingers, whatever the current derogatory term of the day is being used against those that cannot refute actual facts and the very words written by the man), I then also question the true motives of all who are so desperate to suppress or deny the factual basis of those criticisms.
You cannot be serious if you think everyone that has reservations about Mr. Greewald's agenda is a shill. It makes one look silly.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)effort at misdirection is a FAIL
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)and YOU added the cherry on top.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)I have notice the same thing. The polls they use to show that they, the GG fans, usually have the same number of voters as their recs on all their bashing threads. If 140 or so makes up the majority on DU, according to them, with thousands of posters, then maybe they also need a math lesson. I guess they can't accept that maybe the vast majority of DU just doesn't want to waste their time voting such stupid polls, over , and over and over again from the same group of doom and gloom posters!
B Calm
(28,762 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)all reasonable debate.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)leftstreet
(36,107 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)K&R
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)use anything they can to smear them tells you something foul is afoot. The inane and petty shit they hurl 24/7 is more indicative of propaganda and systematic character assassination than an informed opinion. Had they not been so "schoolyard" in their efforts, they may have been more persuasive. Not the brightest bulbs on the porch.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)If an agent provocateur infiltrates a peaceful group and throws the first punch, there's an unfortunate possibility that the next punches will be thrown by other members of the group in earnest. That's how it often works.
It's very likely that in addition to sockpuppets that there are "true believers" who are smearing Greenwald and Snowden as well. Unfortunately, the discourse is so poisoned that they don't realize the source of the "facts" and impressions that led to their conclusions.
In California, more than 90 percent of the state favored GMO labeling. Yet, some six months later when the election arrived, the initiative lost. That's a great example of propaganda at work.
Even people who are completely unplugged from manipulative sources of information aren't immune to its influence when their friends and family are dictating the direction of the discourse.
questionseverything
(9,654 posts)Hacked Emails Show U.S. Chamber of Commerce Targeted VelvetRevolution.US, Other Progressive Groups With Massive Disinfo Campaign
UPDATE: 'Brad Friedman' and family personally targeted as well...
By Brad Friedman on 2/10/2011, 4:00pm PT
UPDATE 2/14/11: A big update, and a lot of new details on this entire story (including the Chamber plot targeting me) now here...
* * *
UPDATE 9:03pm PT: Yes, they do target and name ME and my family, including personal details about us specifically, as part of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's disinformation attack, as ThinkProgress notes in an update tonight:
Another target was Brad Friedman, co-founder of The Brad Blog. Barrs profile of Friedman included information about his life partner and his home address.
See TP's most recent article for some of the emails, etc. These are horrible people.
librechik
(30,674 posts)were loudly condemning Snowden as a person and saying he had done a lot of damage to American citizens.
Whaaa? Really?
Jackie i can almost see as a propagandist, but Stephanie?
I think there's a broad range of the center which doesn't like Snowden and has swallowed the propaganda on what he did.
bigtree
(85,996 posts). . . and it's presented in a package of innuendo and smear worthy of the most earnest government propagandists. All of this McCarthy-like language wrapped up in some nebulous and unaccountable defense of progressive(ism).
Judging by the effort in the op to carve out a safe space for yourself (and whoever joins your hypocritical bandwagon) to practice the fantastical labeling and denigration of others that you claim to abhor, your efforts actually pose more of a threat of some of hidden association or motive.
Yours is not merely an effort to inform Democrats here at DU, it's an effort to stifle the side of the debate that you disagree with. That would seem to me to be the biggest threat or danger here on this discussion board, not the presence and participation of folks here with contrary views.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)The OP is an honest depiction of what is going on in this country. Whether people are attacking Snowden and Greenwald because they truly don't like them or because the are national surveillance state shills doesn't matter. They are doing great harm. Attacking Snowden, whether as a shill or a critic, serves the end of the national surveillance apparatus. It's a classic divide and conquer strategy and many Snowden detractors have been sucked in.
By tying discussions over Snowden in knots, the REAL ISSUE: massive, unconstitutional government surveillance is not being discussed. Making it about Snowden keeps the NSA out of the light. Who do you think likes that outcome?
Bettie
(16,095 posts)To believe that Snowden and Greenwald did this for all the wrong reasons AND believe that the NSA is going way past the boundaries of what they should be.
Sometimes, there are no 'heroic figures' in a situation. Snowden is certainly no hero, but the NSA isn't either.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
valerief
(53,235 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Not to mention a massive,finger pointing insult to any DUers who disagree with you.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)FDR was a human being who made mistakes. Obama, Greenwald, Snowden, and others are also all human beings also that have made mistakes.
The important things is to look on balance what they've done, and where they have focused their efforts on most issues and the most important issues they've dealt with. Propagandists try to just focus on the faults and on judging the individuals. Journalists may focus on some of these random faults, but they should be focused primarily on the issues, and not just one person as a means to tear that person down.
On balance, FDR's collective actions have done so many more good things for this country, and therefore people for the most part have focused on all of those good things in judging him historically. Now we shouldn't IGNORE those faults such as the Japanese internments. We should avoid those again, but we also shouldn't use that action as the sole issue to judge FDR's life by.
Obama has done many good things, and many who critique him here (including people like myself), acknowledge those things as well, and that is what separates many of those people, especially those on the right that want to ignore those good things totally and be so focused on propagandizing everything against him. But the many things he's done badly need attention and are critical to the survival of our country from losing its democratic roots and becoming more of a authoritarian state for the 1%. It is not clear in every case whether he's a leader in some of these bad actions, or answering to some other more stealthy powers that are controlling his actions here. But ignoring these actions to just focus on the good things he's done is also wrong.
Snowden and Greenwald have focused on the actions of the NSA and how they've done things that arguably are unconstitutional in threatening our fundamental rights as Americans. These are actions that have been happening with the unconscious or conscious blessings of members of both of our two major parties, and there are many people here who rightly see the threats to our democracy going on with these issues and want more attention given to them, and are thankful to Greenwald and Snowden for taking many personal risks to try to optimally get us the details of what is going on with these issues.
Now they are also human beings and have made mistakes too no doubt. I certainly don't care for much of what many Libertarians stand for, and I think the focus on just what they do right (anti-war stances, stances on drugs, government transparency on spying and privacy abuses), sometimes obscures what they do wrong to many of the young that get drawn in to following them. But on balance, both of these individuals have done the right things and much of what Greenwald has done is not in support of the bad aspects that people ascribe to Libertarian values.
I really dislike propagandizing that ignores or underemphasizes the critical issues, and seeks to judge people by just looking at the arguably less critical issues or issues they don't focus on that they have made mistakes with (even if some of those are critical to some, as Japanese internment was critical to a sizable amount of Americans that don't deserve to be pushed to the side either).
I'm hoping in 2016 we get someone who on balance does the right things for the critical issues facing our country and planet (corporate corruption correction and fixing things like climate change, etc.). That is why I still hold the hopes of someone like Elizabeth Warren running who I feel is one of the few that is trying to do the right thing on these critical issues. I can completely understand though, even if she wants to run at this point why she publicly doesn't announce her intentions at this point, as there would be monstrous amounts of resources and money focused on propagandizing against her now that would not deal with the issues she has tried to lead us on fixing.
So, I support the OP's contention that there is an orchestrated attempt at trying to focus on discrediting Greenwald and Snowden instead of looking at the critical issues that they've focused on bringing to our attention that few have tried to do successfully. We as DUers and progressives need to have a healthy way of judging when criticism is focused on giving us an accurate total perspective, and when it is just trying to deter us from focusing on what isn't as important. That doesn't mean that everyone who criticizes Greenwald or Snowden is a "propagandist", but I would hope that those who aren't "propagandists" would step back and take a healthy look at the sum total of what they've talked about and taken risks to do to help us, and not just the negative aspects. If I see efforts to give a balanced perspective on judging them, I will make an effort to avoid just "labeling" them as well as propagandists. But I do feel that focusing on just those negative aspects is what propagandists tend to do, and from where I stand, I really would like to focus on the problems with the NSA, and not the personalities of those involved with it, as I think there's a lot of blame to be spread around for what has gone wrong here.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Most of us, especially people in prominent positions, have feet of clay. Character assassination is way too easy when you control the megaphone. And it conveniently diverts attention away from key issues.
What if I we only thought of JFK, RFK, and MLK as womanizers, for example?
Or discredited Einstein because he was a terrible husband and father? (He was)
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)that so many drove around along with VW vans decked up with protest paint, etc. since it was Hitler's few good creations that created Volkswagen and the VW bug. We wouldn't say that Hitler was a good man because of the VW he helped create, nor would we say that those who have bought VW's over the years or those who work for VW are evil because they owe it to Hitler for having created this car.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The USA was in hysteria about the imminent invasion of California at that time.
The West Coast was a Vigilante State with armed "citizens" "patrolling" the coastlines.
There are records of mobs beating anyone who appeared to be Japanese, though these are hard to find. It was NOT our Finest Moment.
It was a different time,
and the US was a "racist" nation.
The country backed the Internment of the Japanese WITHOUT any dissent.
It was near 100%.
You should read some of the speeches from the floor of Congress at that time.
FDR was a kitten compared to some of the other proposals.
This wasn't an FDR "mistake".
It was a National Shame, though we didn't think so at the time.
No "Propagandist" would have survived in that War Hysteria environment.
...besides, FDR had other things to attend to.
The Japanese had just sunk our Pacific Fleet.
Hitler had conquered Europe (save Britain) and looked like he would conquer Asia too.
He was in a REAL World War on TWO Global fronts without much of an Army or Navy.
There were reports of Japanese saboteurs on the West Coast.
There were no satellites or radar intelligence.
In his shoes, I might have taken them off the table and put them somewhere safe too.
It WAS a different WORLD,
and it isn't fair to judge FDR by current standards.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)based on an application of Occam's Razor.
While I, unlike many of the guilty we've heard from here, didn't read your post as an indictment of them all individually as tools of the state, what you posted sure makes it clear that their shared agenda is facillitated by it.
I think the simpler and more plausible explanantion for how avidly they vociforously defend the chief state actor and attack his critics is due to the tribal/team mentality coupled to a rational or irrational fear of the rightwing alternative. This blinds them to their enabling role in the steady drift rightward DC politics has seen for several decades now as the country has moved in the opposite direction.
The latter more than anything else is what I find so troubling -- it shows that they, like those they fear, have the political acumen and foresight of the common earthworm. The time would appear to be more ripe now for demands that our leaders in DC heed that leftward drift, not to say that "it's okay as long as you aren't as extreme as those rightwingers are now!".
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The latter more than anything else is what I find so troubling -- it shows that they, like those they fear, have the political acumen and foresight of the common earthworm. The time would appear to be more ripe now for demands that our leaders in DC heed that leftward drift, not to say that "it's okay as long as you aren't as extreme as those rightwingers are now!".
Nailed It.
...though I DO believe there are a couple of Pros or Wannabes linked to organized Message Control Team efforts.
randome
(34,845 posts)Snowden will either be forgotten in Russia or he will return to the U.S. and face trial.
So all of this infighting and hand-wringing and casting of aspersions accomplishes exactly nothing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The controversy over the Governmental Over Reach exposed by the Pulitzer Winning Whistle Blowers Snowden & Greenwald will end with either effective reform,
.
.
.
.
or it won't.
randome
(34,845 posts)...where Snowden wants us to be. You don't need to pick a side when the evidence is incontrovertible, just as it isn't necessary to 'pick a side' regarding evolution. Facts are facts.
And the vast majority of what Greenwald and Snowden have released have not been facts, they've been insinuations and suppositions. Some choose to believe those insinuations and suppositions and I don't think anyone wants to disabuse them of that.
But when those insinuations and suppositions are being used to try and convince others to climb on board, it all falls apart. Facts would garner more 'believers'. There are few facts in this matter. No smoking guns.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The evidence IS Clear Cut.
The evidence IS incontrovertible.
The Guardian was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for Snowden & Greenwald's expose'.
They don't do that for "innuendo" and "suppositions".
In fact, YOUR post is a perfect example of innuendo and supposition.
You document NONE of your claims.
Snowden & Greenwald supported their claims with classified documents.
randome
(34,845 posts)Not whether any or all claims made by a newspaper are correct or not.
I don't know how I can document a negative. We've all seen the same evidence but 99 percent of it has had to do with the NSA spying on other countries. At least that's how I see it.
One of their first 'revelations' was about PRISM, which Greenwald and Snowden incorrectly identified as a way for the NSA to 'get everything on everyone' instead of a secure FTP server for data obtained via warrants. I base my conclusion on the fact that every internet provider associated with it has denied it being used for the kind of mass monitoring Greenwald and Snowden wanted us to believe.
Sure, everyone up and down the chain could be lying to us. But I doubt it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I WILL agree with one of your statements:
"Pulitzer Prizes are based on.... subject matter."
AND, IF the subject matter is "innuendo & supposition" = NO Pulitzer.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)taunt Snowden but I think most who disagree on this issue here are honest people.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)our intelligence methods goes way over the line.
as for greenwald, i think this is his big meal ticket and he's cashing it in for all it's worth. I see him as an opportunist in this whole deal.
that's my opinion, I could be wrong.
G_j
(40,367 posts)all I know is that it just feels creepy to me that there is so much venom and outright hatred toward those two individuals.
I know some feel that he is not a "hero", and that is entirely understandable, but that still doesn't explain the incredible amount nastiness and vitriol.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Ignorance is Strength!
Freedom is Slavery!
We NEED a Surveillance/Security State to keep us safe!
We have always been at War with TERROR!
reddread
(6,896 posts)when used as directed.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)I realize you think Cass Sunstein is trying to implant a camera inside your brain, but now you suggest that anyone here who has an opinion about any aspect of GreenSnow is somehow complicit in this all-encompassing sinister plot?
Stop.It.Now.
This is a discussion forum where people put forth their opinions. If you can't take some people's validly held opinions, you need to step back and respond to those opinions. Accusations of nefarious support for conspiracies are completely out of bounds, and the worst kind of conspiratorial delusion.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Some choose to vilify Snowden and other people that challenge the Corptocracy, and never discuss fracking, net neutrality, the TPP, the XL Pipeline, the Patriot ACt, etc. I doubt their support of the Corptocracy is anything other than their fear of change from the status quo. They want to ignore the poverty, the unemployment, the Wall Street fraud, and attack those that want to reestablish our freedoms and liberties.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Some are here to discuss the Patriot act, Wall Street, and a few pet issues but completely ignore concerns about health care, racial issues, the environment, etc. They are obsessed with Personal Freedom in the Rand (Ayn or Paul, take your choice) variety, and want to ignore everything else, wrapped as they are in their own white male paranoid fantasies.
Perhaps we need two different forums.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)Not that some posters may have much better sources than Greenwald that paint a very different picture?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)You're kidding, right?
If some posters have much better sources than Greenwald,
they wouldn't be posting HERE,
unless they are Professionals hired by a Message Control Team.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)It showed a program operating legitimately as described with about the level of violations you would expect for an effort that size, such the one analyst who was doing three-step rather than two-step phone searching asa well as data entry errors such as the one with the Egyptian country code. How anyone can square the wealth of detail in that article with Greenwald's articles is beyond me.
As far as private sources go, you would be surprised how many posters here have some idea how government actually works and recognize the earmarks of propaganda when they hear it. Greenwald is an outsider, to put kindly, and appears to take Snowden at his word despite a number of red flags and known exaggerations. For anyone familiar with the intelligence communities, the picture that he portrays of how the US government operates is so at odds with reality that is strains credulity.
Personally, my perspective on the NSA comes from a recently retired NSA Deputy Director with a close family connection I have known for decades -- a lifelong Democrat from a union family in the Northeast with unimpeachable integrity, street smarts, and an Ivy League PhD. I've known a lot of NSA people, and as a group they are decent, smart, middle-class people. It is no more likely for that group to engage in the kind of shenanigans they are accused of than for your mother and father. The whole agency has been going crazy, largely because the rank and file keep hearing things on the news no one can square with anyone's actual experience.
Snowden did break the news of the existence of the phone record database, although the alternative being adopted is really not substantially different from the previous status quo. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but his 'revelations' are so erratic I think people are less well informed now than before. And that's saying a lot.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)barbtries
(28,789 posts)and that it is someone engaged in targeted marketing. this is why:
i texted my dogsitter to see whether she would be available when i was going out of town; she said no.
the next time i was playing words with friends on my phone an ad for a local dog boarding establishment was on my screen.
i had not googled looking for one, ever. i'm used to seeing ads that mirror what i've been shopping for. but this was a text message.
it creeped me out but i don't know the solution. anyway i think it's corporate america specifically marketing that is using the information - though i do not doubt that the government is collecting it.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025038710
uhnope
(6,419 posts)phleshdef
(11,936 posts)...which is a whole lot simpler than the overanalyzed bit of fiction you just posted.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Authoritarians come in all stripes and ideologies. No doubt some of the people on this board get paid to post pro-Democratic articles. Have no doubt, but everyone that disagrees with you on how they feel about GG/Snowden? No, that would be impossible. I recognize what I see before me; some that live for God and Country, some that believe in the state, some that just think GG/Snowden are bad people and dicks to boot.
I am aware of propaganda, seen it on this site for over a decade. One thing I've come to learn, not everyone that disagrees with you are paid for government agents. That is paranoid bull moose crazy speak. TRUE, just because you are paranoid DOESN'T mean they are still not out to get you...but everyone that disagrees?
No. That means you've lost all objectivity of the situation imo. Might as well put bars on your doors and windows and hide behind the couch.
carolinayellowdog
(3,247 posts)Rex, it is beneath you to misread "very small group of the loudest smearers of Greenwald are also overwhelmingly the most reliable attackers of liberals and defenders of every corporate outrage coming out of this administration" as "everyone that disagrees" and then to call Woo Me With Science a deranged paranoiac based on that straw man.
"Everyone that disagrees" about Snowden seems to be somewhere between 40 and 50 percent of Americans, whereas "very small group of the loudest smearers" is a couple dozen DUers.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I don't think you believe that either. We cannot lose our objectivity toward this issue. There will always be a vocal minority on every issue. We cannot allow ourselves to pretend otherwise.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)for releasing the Pentagon Papers.
hell, I wonder how many of the people criticising Snowden and GG would have attacked home then, after LBJ was a Democratic president.
randome
(34,845 posts)Reasonable people can look at the same documents and come to different conclusions.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Sometimes it seems like the only purpose in life is to keep your car from touching another's.[/center][/font][hr]
grasswire
(50,130 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)It's like I'm in a totally different universe than some other folks here. You stated your opinion in a perfectly reasonable and polite manner, yet it's somehow a new low for you...or something.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Ellberg came forward with dirt on something JFK/LBJ had screwed up, and was severely criticized for it- by Democrats nearly as much as Republicans IIRC not for the information being wrong or fabricated but because some people believed it shouldn't have been made public.
Vietnam is a good reason why we should trust Democratic administrations only very slightly less than Republican ones; a 'D' after the name means very little when it comes to a politician or administration operative doing ANYTHING to hide/obfuscate information and/or attack the puryever of the news. IOW how many people who react viscerally to any criticism of this administration have forgotten that it was LBJ, not only a Democrat but one who was genuinely progressive on some important issues who was too blind/beholden or brainwashed to get the hell out of 'nam. just because I like (hell, love) this President on many things doesn't mean I trust the NSA, the pentagon or Justice depts any farther than I can throw the Washington monument.
randome
(34,845 posts)Plenty of DUers are saying 'Trust Snowden'. The man who said "I am not here to hide from justice" from his undisclosed location in Hong Kong.
The man who didn't understand what a secure FTP server is.
The man who claims an email sent after he stole documents shows he tried to go through channels.
I don't trust the NSA. But to be outraged, I need something more than the floor show Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum are putting on.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)To me, anyway.
It's that the NSA must be reigned in. Better disbanded but that isn't going to happen.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Joe would:
Joe Biden, 2006:
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)If it posts like a duck...
Puglover
(16,380 posts)Just for the sheer joy of watching all of the popping heads you get a rec from me!
Nicely done!
ProSense
(116,464 posts)iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)we noticed a lie here and there and decided it was in our best judgment to not blindly worship someone?
the article with the picture of random computer parts labeled 'actual smashed laptop'.. when none of the parts shown actually were in a laptop.....
and Glenn even going so far as to double down after the article and still claim it to be the laptop...
was just kinda it for me..
as a pc tech, its the only thing I know well.. and that there was not what it was claimed to be.
they call that a lie, or at the very least misleading, last time I checked.
that's not to say everything mr greenwald writes is a lie or garbage... but I take everything with a grain of salt now..
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
greatauntoftriplets
(175,733 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
greatauntoftriplets
(175,733 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
greatauntoftriplets
(175,733 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)Another useful post,
and a good compilation of useful links.
Of course, there are those here trying to twist your words into saying that EVERYBODY who spews hate at Snowden & Greenwald are employees of the NSA.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Some do it for FREE just because it is their nature.
*Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Persecution of Whistle Blowers and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Government surveillance of the citizenry and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Secret Laws and Democracy can not co-exist.
*Secret Courts and Democracy can not-co-exist.
*Our Democracy depends on an informed electorate.
You either believe in Democracy,
or you don't.
It IS that simple.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The OP clearly doesn't say that, of course.
But it's a convenient diversion and opportunity for highly emotional distraction from what the OP *does* say.
Well said as always, bvar22.
OregonBlue
(7,754 posts)I certainly am not criticizing his releases of information but he's pretty hard to take. Smug Ahole!!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Clearly, the majority of DUers can see through the pathetic BS.
[font size=3]
Freedom is Slavery!
War is Peace!
Ignorance is Strength!
Snowden is a Coward & a Traitor!
[/font]
DURec!
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)For the most part, it appears these loud-mouthed few are from two camps. One is the paid shill prostituting his or her account for money, posting multiple dozens of messages each day for years 24/7/365. The others are suffering from an Authoritarian Personality. Erich Fromm said "the essence of the authoritarian personality is an inability: the inability to rely on ones self, to be independent, to put it in other words: to endure freedom."
Members of the first group have no self respect, but may have the opportunity change into persons with ethics. Unfortunately, the second group, like others with an emotional or mental disability, are probably never going to be able to endure freedom, much less find joy in freedom.
There are, of course, those who have a genuine nuanced response of disliking Snowden and Greenwald while vigorously condemning this vile surveillance state. The key word, of course, being "genuine". Most of the people claiming a seat on that particular fence are, based on their overwhelming criticism of whistleblowers, lock-step support for an ideological leader, and vague muttering about civil liberties, are obviously from the second group.
Thanks woo.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)That reminds me of the old DU.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)How'd you figure it out so easily? You must be some genius or somethin'. Truly, I hope you have used your powers for good and not just spent posting on a message board every day of every week of every month of every year. Please! Get out there! Call your local police and see if you can solve any crime because, clearly, you've got everything so pegged.
It is true. I'm critical of Snowden and Greenwald and you're absolutely right. It's because I was offered a good chunk of change from the Obama Administration, all tax-payer funded, I'm sure, to do it. You see, they got me even before I knew much about this Barack Obama fella. I think they traveled through time to when I was in HS and told me to sign up on this website known as Democratic Underground, infiltrate its community, subtly throw my support behind then Senator Obama, advocate for his election, celebrate in that election, endear myself to the community - all so that, in 2014, I could attack Greenwald and Snowden! It's perfectly genius! AND YOU FIGURED IT OUT. Holy Jesus. You're good.
Scary good.
I bow down to you. Now, I must run since my identity has been exposed.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Something was exposed here and it wasn't your identity. Try de-caf.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)'They" the 'for profits' will NEVER let go of the gov. gravy train unless the laws are somehow canceled.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)No, couldn't be.
Actually he is. A RW libertarian pal of Matt Hale foolhardy liberals are willing to follow like the Pied Piper because they misinterpret his classical isolationism (an extreme RW position born in the late 19th century of white supremacy, anti-nationalism and opposition to the formation of the political state. It's basically the foreign policy portion of anarcho-conservatism. Murray Rothbard would wholeheartedly embrace Greenwald's flavor of anti-military and anti-security sentiment.) for a kindred anti-war position. You might as well be supporting Lyndon LaRouche...sadly, while LaRouchianism would probably get you a DU banhammering, support for Greenwald will not.
Please check my liberal bona fides...short of my undying hatred for pacifists...you're going to have a hard time of it. I'm a staunch economic liberal. I'm an even more staunch social liberal. I just don't think there's any more room in this tent for those who would get in bed with RW-fringe antiwar crowd than there is for corporatists.
randome
(34,845 posts)You draw out infrequently-seen names, many of whom disagree with you. So, in a way, this isn't a divisive OP at all!
I kid! I kid!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)harun
(11,348 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)and it's not functional so I'm not logged in.
As such, I got to see my ignore list having a good old time in a copy cat thread.
Did you know that you may be a fake liberal and probably a racist?
On the plus side I didn't see the latest Gallup poll that shows how much liberal Democrats approve of Obama (88% is my guess).
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The one that tried to mirror the thread, but reduced the entire OP in the subject line to being mean to Obama.
Talk about revealing.
Obama will be gone in two years. These infrastructures for spying and propaganda will stay.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)and the 100 replies are maybe 25 or so.
Looking at it while not logged in, many agreeing it's a racist issue.
This place has gone off the deep end.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)The same group, talking to itself at length.
Reminds me of the grackles at our feeder that puff up and chatter, trying to look like more birds than they are.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)[font size=1 color=#cfcfcf] (for the buthurt propagandists!) [/font]
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)mia
(8,360 posts)Those who finance our government create "the truth".
albino65
(484 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)We come from the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.
We are the old FDR/LBJ Working Class Democrats who STILL believe in the Traditional Democratic Party Values that made our Party GREAT,
and built the largest, wealthiest, and most upwardly mobile Working Class the WORLD had ever seen.
Among these are:
*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
*The right of every family to a decent home;
*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
*The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.[/font]
Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.
There was a time, not so long ago, when voting FOR the "DEMOCRAT"
was voting FOR the above values.
Sadly, this is no longer true.
Where do we come from?
We are those who still believe in these FDR Working Class Values Democratic Party Values,
haven't given up on the Democratic Party,
and REFUSE to let our leadership SELL our Party to the highest Corporate bidder.
WE are the Democrats who fought AGAINST "Moderate Republican Policy" in the 80s,
and prefer Leadership that would have been known as DEMOCRATS in the 80s,
and NOT "Moderate Republicans".
THAT is where WE come from.
[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Thank you.
merrily
(45,251 posts)mia
(8,360 posts)It's obvious that there is a cadre of posters who refer to a set of talking points. I guess that a few of these do it for a living. Others fawn over their posts as if they were some kind of authority deserving respect and agreement without further thought.