Al Gore: NSA's Law-Breaking Worse Than Snowden's - USNews

[WillyT]

Al Gore: NSA's Law-Breaking Worse Than Snowden's
The former vice president says the exiled whistleblower offered an 'important service.'
By Steven Nelson - USNews
June 10, 2014 | 1:45 p.m. EDT

<snip>

Former Vice President Al Gore reiterated Tuesday his belief that exiled whistleblower Edward Snowden exposed National Security Agency programs that are unconstitutional.

“What [Snowden] revealed in the course of violating important laws included violations of the United States Constitution that were way more serious than the crimes that he committed,” Gore said during an onstage appearance at the Southland Conference 2014 in Nashville, Tennessee.

“In the course of violating important laws he also provided an important service, OK, because we did need to know how far this has gone,” he said.

The remarks were first reported by PandoDaily, which uploaded footage of Gore’s commentary: http://pando.com/2014/06/10/gore-at-southland-snowden-revealed-far-bigger-violations-than-the-one-he-committed/

The former vice president also said Snowden is more of a hero than a traitor.

Gore’s position on surveillance isn’t new. In November, he told an audience at McGill University that Snowden “revealed evidence of what appears to be crimes against the Constitution of the United States.”

<snip>

More: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/06/10/al-gore-nsa-law-breaking-worse-than-edward-snowdens

[Aerows]

1. "Paging a bus for Al Gore"

"We need a bus for Al Gore to be under in 3..2..1"

[WillyT]

4. LOL !!!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

13. LOL

He'll be in good company under that bus, at least.

[Capt. Obvious]

18. Heh

[Enthusiast]

19. Just what I was thinking.

And here it is on the first post.

Funny, I haven't heard anything from Hillary on Snowden and the NSA. Maybe I missed it.

[G_j]

2. essentially calling him a whistle blower..

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/208819-al-gore-snowden-not-a-traitor

[WillyT]

40. Thank You For That !!!

[1000words]

3. Under the bus President Gore goes!

[Jamastiene]

52. President Gore

I love that. He was rightfully our president in 2000. Every time someone says President Gore, it makes me wonder how things would be today. I would bet much better.

[uponit7771]

5. Then may they BOTH face a jury of their peers... o wait...

[msanthrope]

6. Good. All the more reason for Snowden to come back and face the music. He has a viable defense. nt

[WillyT]

7. I'm Sure When The Attorney's Involved Strike Some Sort Of Iron-Clad Deal, He Will...

[msanthrope]

8. No--they won't. He will have to submit himself to custody before a deal can be

struck.

[sabrina 1]

39. You said that already. I'm sure Gore, intelligent as he is, knows why Whistle Blowers can no longer

remain in this country. See the torture of Whistle Blower Chelsea Manning, and the outrageous sentence she received while the War Criminals she exposed walk free.

And see Drake, who did everything according to the book but was persecuted for ten long years when they had NOTHING on him at all, just persecuted him in order to deter anyone else from daring to expose the crimes Gore is talking about.

It didn't work, there were more Whistle Blowers after Drake, and there will be more after Snowden, who will probably seek Political Asylum as he has.

Good for Gore for

[Blanks]

9. Gore did say (you will notice) that Snowden is NOT a hero

However, he wasn't willing to call him a coward or a traitor either.

He believes that he provided a necessary service, but I'd be willing to bet that as Gore is questioned on this in follow up interviews - he will agree with all of the other folks who say that Snowden needs to come home and face the music.

[bvar22]

33. "The former vice president also said

Snowden is more of a hero than a traitor. "

I think that counts!

[Blanks]

36. It can count if you want it to...

My position has always been that we should NOT view him as a hero because he broke the law. My feelings about the whole thing are pretty consistent with the former Vice President, but I've always liked Gore - so that doesn't surprise me. We really took a wrong turn as a nation when they stole that election from us.

However, it comes back to the old saying" two wrongs don't make a right" - the government is breaking the law, and Snowden is breaking the law. Is the government MORE wrong because it's bigger, more powerful? No, they're both wrong.

[sabrina 1]

43. If you witness a crime in action, should you remain silent because there is a law that

against revealing someone's secrets? Does the law state that EVEN IF YOU SEE A CRIME you must remain silent?

The FFs discussed the issue of bad laws. They provided a way for the people to get rid of bad laws, it is called 'jury nullification'. Eg, if the jury agrees the defendant broke the law, but feels the defendant did the right thing as it was in the best interests of the people, they CAN vote to ignore the law.

This is such a case. No one should be required to remain silent in the face of such egregious law breaking. And most reasonable people do not expect them to.

[Blanks]

47. Ok, then Snowden can come home and face a jury...

Apparently we are in agreement. That's been my position all along.

Those who point to the abuse of Manning like to remind us that he was treated unfairly. Too many people know about what Snowden has done for 'them' to just tuck him into a cell and pretend he never existed.

The crime that Snowden committed wasn't that he TOLD people what 'they' did (or were doing) - the crime was that he took classified information and left the country. It's the leaving the country with classified information part that I see as the problem not the 'talking about it' component of your analogy.

[sabrina 1]

58. No, he cannot. And if you don't that, you haven't been following the issue of how Whistle Blowers

are treated in this country. It's the equivalent of us telling eg, a Chinese dissident that he should go back to China and 'face the music'. We don't, because we know what will happen to them if they do. Why would anyone tell a political refugee to return the country they are seeking asylum FROM unless they simply don't care about human rights. Manning was TORTURED, she was kept from any kind of contact with the public where she could have done as Snowden can now do, communicate his side of the story to the public.

Members of the CIA have stated they would 'kill him' if they got the chance. His life and rights would be in severe danger if he were to return to this country until the rule of law has been reestablished and the concept of a fair trial has been re-introduced to our system.

Drake was persecuted for TEN YEARS. HE did what you claim Snowden should do. He went by the book as far as Whistle Blowing rules are concerned. Ask HIM what he thinks of Snowden's decision. Would HE, who DID what you want Snowden to do give him the advise you are giving him?

Drake has answered that question and the answer is 'no'. Because this government cannot be trusted anymore. They apparently have too much to hide.

[Blanks]

59. No, it's not...

It's the equivalent of us telling eg, a Chinese dissident that he should go back to China and 'face the music'.

This is not China. There's no way the government could whisk Snowden away without raising eyebrows when prominent Americans like Jimmy Carter and Al Gore have commented on his actions. There's no way the US government could put him to death without a trial.

[sabrina 1]

60. I prefer to ask those who have experienced what happens to Whistle Blowers here. Manning was

supported by some very prominent people here and overseas. That didn't stop the torture for several years, nor did it get him a fair and open trial. 35 years in prison, for refusing to violate his oath.

Please, I don't think there is even a question anymore as to how we treat those who threaten the corrupt rulers of this country who appear NOT to be those we elect.

There are worse things than death, ask Manning, ask Drake, ask Binney. Snowden did the right thing, too bad Manning didn't do the same thing, he would be free to speak about what he saw, why he was compelled to try to stop it.

If the Government wants to end all of this, all they have to do is abide by their oaths of office. Not much is required of them, just to 'protect and defend the Constitution of the US against all enemies, both foreign and domestic'. That should not difficult. Drake tried to do it, Manning tried to do it, Snowden tried to do it. Not so much those charged with the obligation to do so.

[bvar22]

62. Daniel Ellsberg "broke the law" and he is a Hero.

There is a long list of of people who "broke the law" and are heroes,
beginning with the earliest American Revolutionaries.

[Blanks]

63. Sure, but show me the list...

Of law breakers with security clearances that fled the country. Ellsberg 'faced the music.' That's all I've ever said that Snowden needs to do to be on par with Ellsberg.

Surely you're not going to put a guy who fled the country to avoid prosecution in the same category as our founding fathers?

It isn't that he broke the law that I find objectionable - it's that he ran off to another country with secrets.

It's one thing to stand up and fight against injustices - it's a very different thing to identify injustices and then run off to another country and share those injustices with them.

[sabrina 1]

42. I didn't see where he said 'Snowden is not a hero'. He said this in response to the

question, 'is he a hero or a traitor': he said he would “push [Snowden] more away from the traitor side.” And in saying that, he is in agreement now with a majority of Americans.

Of course Snowden broke the law, all Whistle Blowers tend to find themselves in that position, Snowden said so himself, but as Gore said:

“But what he revealed in the course of violating important laws included violations of the United States Constitution that were way more serious than the crimes that he committed, and so in the course of violating important laws, he also provided an important service.”

The public's 'right to know' supercedes any law that would make it impossible for the public to GET that information.

[Blanks]

44. I did paraphrase...

When asked 'hero or traitor' Gore didn't say: "hero."

As far as I'm concerned that's the same as saying NOT a hero, but I'll give you that one. That's not what he said.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[sabrina 1]

46. I wouldn't expect him to call him a hero, but unlike Kerry eg, he does not view him as a traitor

What he may believe privately we don't know, but it did take a lot of courage for all the Whistle Blowers who have come forward over the past decade, to do what they did. I imagine Gore understands that, especially since he agrees that the revelations do show huge Consitutional violations.

[Blanks]

48. I believe Kerry also called him a coward...

I think that's too extreme. I don't find his actions particularly heroic (and my concern is that others mimic the behavior) at the same time I think that the sitting Secretary of State should show a lower tolerance for people who have left the country with classified information than folks who aren't currently part of the administration.

[sabrina 1]

57. He did not leave the country with classified information. He took nothing with him.

We'll see if he ends up with hero status. Ellsberg, also vilified at the time, also called a traitor and also broke the law in order to get information to the American people that they were entitled to have, is universally considered a hero. Time and history decide these things.

Certainly he has the support of some pretty impressive people, one way to judge whether you are on the right or wrong side of an issue is to see who is there with you.

I support Whistle Blowers. The proper process when someone blows the whistle and appears to have proof of wrongdoing is to start an investigation, NOT of the Whistle Blower, but of those who are implicated in the revelations.

Had that happened with the Bush perps, this would be a different country. Actually, these violators of the Constitution go back further than that, AND they've been getting away with their crimes now for decades. As could be expected, they are becoming bolder, knowing they have reached 'untouchable' status. At least for now.

[WillyT]

61. Isn't It Amazing ???

How EVERYBODY has an opinion on Snowden/Greenwald/NSA, etc...

Yet so many are not that well versed in the facts?

We should make up a Quiz.

[sabrina 1]

65. I think those who genuinely want the truth, take the trouble to get the facts, willy.

Those who want to support a politician or a party, choose to remain blind. I know, I kind of did that myself for a while, chose to be willfully blind so I could continue to support my party. But it didn't work, people kept throwing facts at me, it became embarrassing after a while when even people on my side, pointed out to me that I was ignorant of the facts.

I have a feeling that many more people will eventually seek the truth, as I did and many more like me (if you knew me in 2001 I was the ultimate partisan lashing out at anyone who seemed to me to be attacking my party, lol).

When it comes down to the future of this country, to keeping OUR party on the right track becomes very important. And the only way to do that is to let them know we are not listening to words anymore, we are watching what they are doing. We NEED this party because we don't have another one. So it's up to us to make sure it doesn't get any more hi-jacked than it has already.

[Octafish]

10. Why the criminals on SCROTUS didn't want Al Gore to be President.

Integrity.

[nashville_brook]

11. heh heh -- "SCROTUS"

[Octafish]

12. You know what they say about Teabaggers?

Last edited Tue Jun 10, 2014, 03:44 PM - Edit history (1)

They're clowns.

[SoapBox]

14. I repeat...Al, you've lost your marbles.

And your cred.

[sabrina 1]

45. On the contrary, he is joining a growing number of respected Americans who care deeply about the

Constitutional rights of the American people. Soon it will be impossible to smear the messenger anymore as more and more Americans AGREE with Gore.

[840high]

15. Excellent.

k/r

[Maedhros]

16. I continue to be fascinated by DU posters that insist on focusing on the small crime

(i.e. Snowden's theft of data) in excruciating, repetitious detail while downplaying, minimizing or ignoring the NSA's massive crimes.

Which is going to hurt the country more in the long run?

[historylovr]

17. +1.

Good observation and question.

Plus, I love your user name and sig line.

[Maedhros]

21. You learn a few things hanging from a wall for 10 years. [n/t]

[historylovr]

35. That you do.

[Uncle Joe]

22. That would be not being able to see the forest for the tree (s) syndrome.

I have no doubt that becoming a total surveillance nation is most definitely the greatest danger.

[Enthusiast]

20. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[Uncle Joe]

23. I believe this statement by Al sums it up perfectly.

The former vice president didn’t hold back about his feelings on the National Security Agency’s surveillance practices. “This is a threat to democracy, to the heart of democracy,” Gore said, fearing that people would self-censor under the threat of surveillance.

Thanks for the thread, WillyT.

[WillyT]

24. Anytime Uncle Joe, Anytime... And Thanks For The Quote !!!

[Uncle Joe]

27. A total surveillance nation is cancer to democracy and combined with Citizens United,

a militarized police, for profit prisons and a wall built up separating us from Mexico and we are surely heading down the path to an oligarchy/corporate supremacist state.

Peace to you, WillyT

[WillyT]

29. That's What I'm Afraid Of Too... Did You Catch THIS:

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025074565

Plus...

Wait til the NSA gets it's paws on what's coming next: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/10/pc-future-2018_n_5476502.html

The Internet Of Everything... and lots of implications.

[Uncle Joe]

32. Not to mention this, which dropped like a rock for some reason, possibly because

the interview with two other whistle-blowers, Weibe and Binney was 22+ minutes long?

So I posted some of the points they made on that thread, but there is much more on the actual interview, including how the NSA is circumventing the judiciary, basically shredding the Bill of Rights.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025071450

This was well worth watching and they confirm at least two of Snowden's points.

1. The NSA had prior knowledge of an imminent attack against the U.S. prior to 9/11, they also state that NBC didn't telecast that part of the interview with Snowden.

2. The NSA is spying on everyone in the U.S. this is stated a couple of times by both men.

Furthermore

1. The House and Senate Intelligence Committees are in bed with the NSA instead of overseeing them.

2. The NSA is sending information to the DEA among others and telling them not to disclose where they got the information that's easy to do as the FISA Court has no oversight.

3. They have a separate organization set up for the sole purpose of covering their tracks so that an article 3 court won't know how any evidence was obtained, thereby subverting our judicial system.

4. This is still ongoing, it didn't end with the Bush Administration.

5. There is a total lack of ethics in the NSA most everybody working there is more concerned with their reputation, family, paychecks, lives etc. and that's why more haven't come forward yet and this in turn can only serve to corrupt our government beyond recognition.

6. While the Stasi of East Germany didn't have the technology, the modus operandi is the same, total spying on everyone in their nation, respecting no privacy for the people.

There is more on the link, which I haven't posted, again this is a must read, unless you prefer to remain in the land of the ignorant, but if you do, this can only get worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_germany

Stasi

The Ministry of State Security (Stasi) included the Felix Dzerzhinsky Guards Regiment, which was mainly involved with facilities security and plain clothes events security. They were the only part of the feared Stasi that was visible to the public, and so were very unpopular within the population. The Stasi numbered around 90,000 men, the Guards Regiment around 11,000-12,000 men.

(snip)

Culture

Main article: Culture of East Germany

East Germany's culture was strongly influenced by communism and particularly Stalinism and was described by East German psychoanalyst Hans-Joachim Maaz in 1990 as having produced a "Congested Feeling" among East Germans as a result of the East German state's goal to protect people from dangers of deviant cultural influence and dangers of popular expression deviating from the state's ideals through enforcing official ideals through physical and psychological repression of these tendencies via its institutions, particularly the Stasi. Critics of the East German state have claimed that the state's commitment to communism was a hollow and cynical tool Machiavellian in nature, but this assertion has been challenged by studies that have found that the East German leadership was genuinely committed to the advance of scientific knowledge, economic development, and social progress. However, Pence and Betts argue, the majority of East Germans over time increasingly regarded the state's ideals to be hollow, though there was also a substantial number of East Germans who regarded their culture as having a healthier, more authentic mentality than that of West Germany.

[WillyT]

41. I Saw That... It Was AWESOME !!!

[Hubert Flottz]

25. You tell them Al...

Snowden “revealed evidence of what appears to be crimes against the Constitution of the United States.”

Al sees it the way most Americans do. And the worst part is, our tax dollars are being used for this gross GESTAPO like invasion of our privacy. We can't afford to fix America's rotting infrastructure, but we always have the money to fund things like this unconstitutional domestic surveillance network?

[sabrina 1]

66. That's what they are fighting so hard for, to keep that money flowing into this fake, we know that

now, thanks to the president's panel, 'war on terror'. Billions of dollars going to these private Security Agencies, like Booz Allen, Clapper's Corporation. The conflict of interest that someone like Clapper has in his position, is so glaring it is blinding. HE gets to tell Congress how much money is need to keep on 'looking for terraists'! Ensuring the continuing money flow into his former, and probably future Corporation, and for what? Nothing that benefits the American people, that is now an indisputable fact.

[Hubert Flottz]

67. The rich tax dodgers don't care...

it's not their tax dollars being laundered and wasted by the people we send to DC to "protect us." I think the politicians are all in this political "Protection Racket" since Nixon.

[sabrina 1]

69. Maybe not all of them, but enough apparently to keep the scam going. That is what has to change.

[BlueCheese]

26. NSA's conduct is worse than Snowden's...

In the same way that an avalanche is a little bigger than a snowflake.

[ProSense]

28. On Snowden, I agree with Gore

On Snowden, I agree with Gore
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025076075

[WillyT]

30. Me Too...

The former vice president also said Snowden is more of a hero than a traitor.

From the OP.

[grasswire]

34. heh heh nt

[Uncle Joe]

31. Me three, but Gore also said this, which by the way isn't texted or bolded on your OP. This is

the entire paragraph

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=822631

“He clearly violated the law,” Gore said Tuesday at Tennessee’s Southland Technology + Southern Culture Conference when asked whether Snowden was a traitor or a hero. “But what he revealed in the course of violating important laws included violations of the United States Constitution that were way more serious than the crimes that he committed, and so in the course of violating important laws, he also provided an important service.”

Gore also said

The former vice president didn’t hold back about his feelings on the National Security Agency’s surveillance practices. “This is a threat to democracy, to the heart of democracy,” Gore said, fearing that people would self-censor under the threat of surveillance.

[Jefferson23]

37. I am appreciative he has gone on the record..thank you Al Gore. K&R

[WillyT]

49. EXACTLY !!!

[Jefferson23]

54. Absolutely WillyT, we need more voices of course, yet Gore's was a very important one.

I hope his statements make others think, regardless of party..we are all Americans first.

This situation is unsustainable..government is there to serve us not dominate us.

in solidarity.

[WillyT]

55. Word !!!

[BuelahWitch]

38. Kick! n/t

[countryjake]

50. Kick and Recommend!

[Jamastiene]

51. K&R

[Leme]

53. I will go with Al on this

[neverforget]

56. Al Gore doesn't understand that it's only metadata and that only Papa Paul Loving Libertarians are

against this NSA surveillance state. Obviously, Gore is a Libertarian.

[Savannahmann]

68. I can't believe that Al Gore fell for this.

I mean, obviously he is smart enough to know that this is a Libertarian plant, and how could he not see that it's all part of the plot that Greenwald and Snowden have been training for since birth by the shadowy Ayn Rand loving Illuminati?

Wait, does Al Gore want the Terrorists to strike America again? Is that what he is saying he really wants?

[NCTraveler]

64. Very even handed and level response.

Both have violated the law. Ones violation is more grave than the other. So simple yet very difficult for some.