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[mopinko]

This message was self-deleted by its author (mopinko) on Sat Jun 14, 2014, 09:55 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Those kids are so lucky to have you looking out for them.

It's too bad about the mom, but she sounds pretty irresponsible in some ways.

Hope the kids get into a better situation.

[mopinko]

3. i am quite attached to them

it is a family building, 4 and 5 br.
i knew that would be the deal.
and i just took to this little 5 yo right away. i really rented the place to him.
but i knew heads would be a buttin sometime.

somewhat grateful that we made it through a whole year.

[Sunlei]

102. creepy! you rented the home, 'because of the 5 year old.'

[ScreamingMeemie]

355. Edited... I can see emotions are running high in this thread.

[mopinko]

394. yeah. with a family apartment,

when someone shows up, and they have kids that need a home, that is my duty. imho.

[Sunlei]

434. sure you have 'rights' as a landlord & who you lease to have rights also. Not sure where you live,

a guess is Chicago area? (by your facebook url in your sig-line) Ill. has a pretty strict code & some aspects of 'retaliatory action' can be enforced, especially if there is a police report and 'community' (includes messageboard discussion postings & facebook pages) to back-up any complaints.

IMO, it is a bit creepy to know someone would be watching comings & goings at 4/5/6 am. The schedule of anyone who is in the medical care field can vary quite a bit. Working Moms with kids, single Moms all learn to deal with this childcare issue. Plenty of night workers day sleep with children in the home.

Heres a link I found about 'retaliatory action' in the Chicago Residential Landlord Tenant Ordinance

you have rights as a landlord, your tenant also has rights. Mothers also have a right to not allow 'just anyone' to "hang-with" their kids, just because it was offered.

http://www.tenants-rights.org/residential-landlord-tenant-ordinance/

[mopinko]

494. my alderman wrote the ordinance

next question.

[CreekDog]

44. are you kidding? read it again. she's trying to make them foster kids.

calls the cops up on this lady and turns out to be completely wrong.

resents the mom for not letting the kid hang out with the landlord?

then after all this, she posts a "woe is me" here about property ownership. like reading that OP we're supposed to feel sorry for HER? seriously?

that's fucked up.

[me b zola]

51. I agree with you

The family needs help. This will likely put the kids at more risk.

[Duppers]

231. I also agree

Foster care is a nightmare in too many places.

Yeah, poor landlord, uh!

[edgineered]

72. It is totally wrong.

What the hell, the tenant is struggling enough, is trying to find help with room mates, with sitters, and managing to face what is one of the most unappreciated jobs one can have. This post really upset me. I raised my three girls by myself, the youngest with Anglemann's Syndrome. Walk in someone else's shoes damn it!

[bobGandolf]

438. Sounds like the landlord can afford to help with no strings attached.

The mother is caught between a rock, and a hard place. Sounds like she is trying to do her best in a crappy situation. A mother's instinct to protect their children is very strong, and quite accurate.
If the landlord wants to help, pay the gas bill, drop off groceries, pay their rent, but don't use the kids spending time with you as a bargaining chip.

[Ed Suspicious]

464. +1 This is one of the most cruel threads I have ever read on DU. Maybe on the internet. The op is

blinded by sanctimony.

[Gormy Cuss]

64. With due respect, the mother sounds overwhelmed.

Home health aides make little money and often have no benefits beyond the legally mandated UI and workers comp. This woman clearly is trying to make ends meet by doing the very responsible thing of having a roommate to share costs and by working graveyard shift when her children will be sleeping. If she's lucky, she's also getting a pay differential.

It's an ugly choice, to leave your young children alone for an hour or two because you can't find a better option. If that's the only neglectful thing she does I can promise you that having the children enter foster care WOULD NOT be a better situation because they would miss their mother. Far better and cheaper to provide the mother with the helping hand she needs to close the gap in her child care arrangement.

[mopinko]

207. its not a few hours.

it is usually 10 pm to 7 am, with the boys getting themselves up for school.

the 10 yo is a sweet, quiet boy, and takes good care of his little brother.

see also
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[bettyellen]

301. a ten year old is there, and it's not enough for you? kids must hang out with you why?

you have no right to judge this woman for preferring her kids not hang out unsupervised with ANY grownup, including you.
Some kids are actually safer away from grownups. WOW.

[bettyellen]

380. WOW- thanks!! What in the world did they say!!

Since when is parents deciding who to NOT to eave their children alone with controversial? Gosh!

[JI7]

396. someone who disagreed with you

can't remember all the words but it included calling you a "stupid bitch" . also it was a first post troll. i think it was probably a banned member who had issues with you on feminist topics.

i alerted but someone had already alerted and the results were 7-0 to hide so that was good.

[bettyellen]

400. WOW, someone blew their first hidden post on little old me! I have been popular lately- thanks

for alerting on that abusive little twerp.

[Hekate]

2. You're doing the right thing to protect those kids, but it's hard.

Best of luck to all concerned.

[mopinko]

4. its really not fair.

the are on the waiting list for a sec 8.
i would be happy to do this. but i tell ya, what an archaic agency.
we got bounced when we tried to enroll our other unit, over missed appointments, even tho i live 2 doors away.

talked to another 2 flat owner who had the same problem, and lost a tenant.

that is why the waiting list is so f'ing long.

[LuvNewcastle]

5. I hope they are able to hook this mom up with some help instead

of taking the kids from her. Kids want to be with their real parents and foster home situations, from what I've been told by people who grew up in that system, rarely turn out well. Maybe the woman just needs some financial help and some counseling. I hope that is the case. You made a hard call, but I think you have the best interests of the children at heart.

It's so hard for people who need assistance to get the help they need unless the situation comes to a head and authorities force agencies to take notice of the problem. Unfortunately, because of the gridlock in Washington and deals made with Republicans, the funding needed to help people in desperate situations is dwindling fast. God, I hope some money is directed to the relevant agencies soon. Too many families are already at the breaking point now, and if something isn't done soon to address these problems, we're going to have even greater numbers of homeless families out there. I wish the best for your tenants, and I hope they get the help they need soon.

[Louisiana1976]

187. +1 million

[mopinko]

208. that is my expectation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[mopinko]

6. well roommate told me got me when she left this morning,

so i called the cops back. mom wasnt expected back for an hour and a half.
in spite of the kids being alone, it ended up looking like this was just a glitch, a small gap, and the bawled her out, but left the kids.

i have no desire to see her lose her kids taken away. it is a borderline thing.
but the thing that cheeses me about it is that then she comes home and spends the day trying to catch up on her sleep.
and with summer coming i am afraid those kids will be alone when she is home.

[boston bean]

7. She is working at night and she needs to sleep and that cheeses you?

WTF?

[mopinko]

16. no no no.

not it at all. and i am not pissed. no one should have to work this hard, and she does the graveyard for the premium.

i really was hoping they will just step in and shake some shit lose for her. esp now that all kids get full day kindergarten in chicago. (thank you, you fucker rahm. )
she could be getting assistance on stuff, she just cant seem to shake it lose.
and i tried to help her. i talked to the alderman for her, and she struck out on the first referral, and gave up. i told her to go to his office, and tell them who she was, and they would hook her up. no.

[boston bean]

20. So, you call the people that will take her children away.

Good for you.

[mopinko]

202. see this reply

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[polly7]

23. Maybe she's too tired and drained to do what she needs to with these things.

I admire that you're trying to help her, but I've seen many people just so overwhelmed, that they have a very difficult time doing much more than beyond the basics. I hope some sort of social services can work with her to help her get done what she needs to.

[pnwmom]

27. They're more likely to just take her kids from her. The kids would probably rather be

in the apartment with her while she sleeps than living with paid strangers.

[2pooped2pop]

33. yep

they will take the kids, put her through loops she can't make, then after 6 months they can adopt them out. But hey, they get their money for the following year based on how many cases are substantiated, how many kids are removed, and how many are adopted out. ANd if those are special needs kids, they get more.

It's a wonderful fucking system we have there with cps/ dfs. Fucking wonderful. It amounts to incentive to remove the kids for your own personal gain, (income)

but they usually only really fuck with the poor who can't fight back. There's plenty of rich kids in need of help too, but hey they can get a lawyer, which is very hard to find.(that will take on cps)

[Shrike47]

222. Well, everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

I took kids away from people for a living for a lot of years. The kids don't get adopted after 6 months, everybody (including the kids) gets a lawyer, there are no pay incentives for taking kids.

[2pooped2pop]

253. not direct pay incentives

but the budget for the following year is directly based on what is done this year. How many substantiated, how many removals, how many adoptions. So yes, it does amount to pay for destroying lives. Boy I know I would be proud to be doing that.

and we know how effective those court appointed lawyers for the kids are, right?

Don't believe thaey adopt them out? just do a google search. Seems like an awful lot of people have a different story to tell. They don't have to adopt them out at 6 months but they can and frequently do, especially the little ones.

[mopinko]

224. not happening

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[2pooped2pop]

272. watch and you will see it happen

and give yourself a big ol pat on the back. Mission Accomplished.

[mopinko]

442. listen, i did check out what the consequences here COULD be.

and like i said repeatedly, i knew, KNEW, and the cops agreed, that there is no way the kids get removed for this.
none.

[2pooped2pop]

447. you obviously have no exprience or knowledge about cps

google the horror stories. It's not up to the cops. They won't be involved. CPS is mostly a low life torture for the poor. It's like they get off on the power of fucking people's lives up.

[mopinko]

469. i know MY cps

and what actions they take at what level. i am involved in my government. i know where it fails and where it succeeds. at this sort of thing, here, they offer some services, which, i repeat, would not otherwise be available.

and i know my cops on my beat. we were one of the pioneers of community policing in this ward. i know very well.

[2pooped2pop]

470. yeah, well let us know how that works out for you

because you don't have a clue to what you have done.

[mopinko]

473. oh, at this point i guess i have to.

but i repeat- you know a lot of internet horror stories.
i know the people here.

[2pooped2pop]

534. yeah, I'm sure that Chicago cps is easier going than my

small town and surrounging area. You know, coz Chicago authority is so easy goin and all.

[mopinko]

216. its not just when she sleeps,

its all night long alone while she works, then she sleeps through the time from the 5 gets out of preschool till she picks the 10yo up from school
and she often leaves the 5 yo alone for this half hour commute.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[DeadLetterOffice]

526. A 10 year old and a 5 year old home alone all night is not safe. Period.

And that is a totally CPS-appropriate reportable thing.
As a mandated reporter in New York State, if I was made aware of a situation like this while in my professional capacity, I would HAVE TO REPORT IT to CPS or RISK LOSING MY LICENSE.

I'm really not understanding WTF is going on in this thread.

[CreekDog]

46. you have to give her credit for not letting her kid hang out with you

turns out she's pretty astute about you.

[NCTraveler]

48. No. No. I can't do it. But I have to.....

+1

[CreekDog]

49. I know it pains you, and I understand

by the way, you have two other posts here.

+2

[nilesobek]

453. We are actually in agreement.

This CPS phone call might just push her over the edge. Disgusting. And the nerve to say, "fun times being a property owner." That's her "fun times?" Ruining someone's life for nothing.

[2pooped2pop]

83. oh they will shake some shit loose for her alright

they will shake those kids right out of her home.

[BainsBane]

119. That is not what cops do

You could have called Catholic Charities or some such organization. Now you called the cops twice because you were concerned they didn't treat her harshly enough the first time? What if they end up in foster care with someone who beats the shit out of them, sexually abuses or kills them? The foster care system is awful.

[mopinko]

232. no, i called at the wrong moment when someone was there.

but almost all nights there are there alone. the roommate backed up everything to the cops. she wanted to call them herself, but didnt want to take the abuse.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[uppityperson]

270. you called the cops hoping the kids were alone and figured the cops would what?

1. kids are in danger so they would be removed.
2. kids were not in danger and you were in error of the situation.

You hoped the kids would be alone, yet continue to say you didn't want them taken away.

Can you see the problem with this?

[mopinko]

399. yeah, you dont seem to know the dif between hoped and knew.

the roommate told the cops she would be leaving them alone when she went.
they told us to call them back.

i figured she would get her shit together and stop playing games with her kids stability.

i knew full well, because i had checked into it, that it was grey enough that there would be no drastic action, per dcfs guidelines.

she got one talking to from the cops, and will likely get another.
but they are also the only city agency that can bump someone up, or wave a wand and get the gas back on.
i tried.

[BainsBane]

289. Here you said you called a second time

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5091453

Clearly you were not satisfied with notifying authorities of your concern, or you would not have called a second time.

[mopinko]

393. no. i called again because the roommate told me she would be leaving.

and then they would, indeed, be alone.
she rang my bell to wake me up, so i called back, like the cops told me to.

its a hard thing to prove, hence having the cops there to witness.

[mopinko]

475. you are 180º incorrect.

i get the point quite clearly.
but everything in your statement is complete bullshit, especially that i want the family split up. that will not happen. i know the people on the ground here, and that just will not happen.

i do not like the way she speaks to her children. she demeans and belittles them. but that has nothing to do with it. if that were the worst i could say about her, none of this would be happening.

i am not unhappy that so many are sticking up for a struggling mom. like i said in the first line of the op, she is not a bad person. she is just not getting together the help that is out there. she cant do it herself. i cant do it for her.
but now she will get a social worker with the power to fix some things for her. like get the damn gas back on.

[pnwmom]

310. What kind of "roommate" is never there?

[mopinko]

391. one that works nights too.

also one who is not responsible for the kids. beyond asking the landlady to help, which is what happened.

[pnwmom]

398. You said she was leaving at 6 am. That's not a night job.

"but she backed me up, and told them that she was leaving at 6, and mom did not get off till 7."

[mopinko]

404. what part of almost every night are you missing?

the roommate also works graveyard. she just happened to have that particular night off, and i didnt know it.

[pnwmom]

406. How come you didn't mention in the OP that there was a 10 year old there, too?

[mopinko]

443. well, predicting what nits will get picked here is impossible to predict.

but i did say there were 2 boys alone every night.

[pnwmom]

451. But there is a huge difference between a 5 and a 2 year old, and a 10 and a 5 year old.

I first assumed you meant the 5 year old was taking care of a younger one.

[mopinko]

476. this 10 yo is a timid and gentle boy.

soft spoken and kind. the 5yo is a bundle of energy.
there is no way he gets his brother out in a fire. no way.

if anything happened on this sweet child's watch, and i had done nothing, i would arrange my own firing squad.

[pnwmom]

506. Have you thought about giving the older boy a prepaid cell phone,

with instructions to only use it for an emergency, and that he could call you and 911?

[2pooped2pop]

536. coz a ten year old doesn't sound so pathetic and helpless

Not like a poor little bright 5 year old living alone in the cold dark house does, anyway.

[Autumn]

19. Here's the thing. Mom is at home. She might be sleeping but they

can wake her up if they need her. Maybe the Mom has things they can do in the house while Mom is resting so she can work. You haven't said how old the other is, you have so far just fixated on the five year old. The hour and a half that they were alone since the police left the children leads me to believe the other may be old enough for that short period of time.

[uppityperson]

54. +1000

[WolverineDG]

91. Bingo

plus some parents actually teach their kids not to open the front door to strangers or burn the house down before they leave them alone. What a concept.

And why no worries or calls to CPS about parents who sleep at night when their kids are in the house? Isn't that also a problem?

[mopinko]

271. please read updated op.

[WolverineDG]

283. Edit: I see the other kid is 10

Seriously. A 10 year old babysitting his 5 year old brother.

Next problem.

[mopinko]

315. all night long?

seriously, no.

[mopinko]

221. i'm not talking about naps.

i am talking about them left alone all night while she works and then again while she naps all morning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[mopinko]

225. no, she is gone all night

then sleeps all morning.

[uppityperson]

53. How will the kids "be alone when she is home"? Parents who work night shift need to sleep

and she will be home.

[mopinko]

226. no, she is gone all night, then sleeps all morning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[WolverineDG]

89. Yeah, how dare a working mother think she is entitled to sleep?

Maybe she hasn't hooked the gas up because she doesn't have a reliable sitter for the kids & doesn't want them to burn the house down?

Where's the dad in all this? Is he paying child support? Is she beating the kids? Not feeding them? Are they wearing ratty clothes?

But yeah, they belong in foster jail where they're more likely to be abused & neglected even more than they are now.

[Doremus]

203. +1 n/t

[Mr Dixon]

8. SMH

Wow this is a hard one, normally I would say mind your business because this woman is struggling to make it and now you have just made it worst. However after reading an untold number of child neglect stories I have to agree that you did the right thing, foster care is not the answer; please keep us updated on the situation.

[mopinko]

17. there is no way this gets foster care. i had no fear of that.

i knew there was no way the system was going to get into this very deep. but one thing we are having trouble with is the transparency of the systems. she is on the sec8 wait list, but we cant find out where. if we are least had a clue if she was close to the top of the list, we could get the apartment up to cha's ridiculous code now.

[pnwmom]

28. If she ends up with a black mark on the record for this, it might backfire with Section 8.

I don't think this was the way to go about that. Too bad you thought the paperwork was too much of a bear to bother with.

[Gormy Cuss]

36. About Sec.8 waiting lists and code requirements

The waiting list isn't just a placeholder for applicants who haven't found an eligible unit. It's a place to wait for a housing voucher to become available. That happens when tenants leave the program (not that frequent) or when the CHA is allocated more funding (even less likely.)

In the HAs where I've worked, the Sec. 8 inspection of units follows the protocol set up by HUD. It's designed to ensure that the government isn't subsidizing substandard housing. While some of the requirements seem stringent in older housing (like the # of outlets per room) for the most part the items address basic habitability issues.

[mopinko]

219. the unit is basically compliant.

the second unit passed the inspection, except for reversed polarity in 2 outlets.

but they are just nasty and stupid with their scheduling, and the appointment got muffed. that was the second time, and even tho the 1st was totally their fault, it failed US.
neighboring 2flat had the same thing. i live 2 doors from the building and they refused to come ring my bell. i had to be sitting on the stairs. at least they have advanced to carry cell phones. but they presume you are a paid maintenance person, hanging around the building all day. or a paid agent, willing to do nothing for an hourly fee.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[uppityperson]

56. Calling the police on a parent for child neglect and you had no fear of it getting to foster care?

Seriously?

[etherealtruth]

173. I can't fathom someone not realizing that the kids could be removed .... ?

[mopinko]

223. srsly, yes. i know what the system here is like.

my long chat with the cops reached the same conclusion. there was no grounds to actually remove the kids at this point. but that she should, and hopefully would, get a visit from cps.

[Sissyk]

239. You really want this mother to get a visit from CPS?

You do know where that can lead, right?

If your intentions were good, they sure took a sharp turn to the right.

CPS would then file a report and it would then be on her record. Probably no Sec8 or anything.

I think you need to re-think this.

[pnwmom]

267. But that was because the roommate was there. You said they were often left all night

and you expected to find them alone when the police came.

If that had happened, the police would have had grounds to remove them.

[mopinko]

294. the just wouldnt. the cops told me as much.

and so did the juvenile court arbitrator that lives on the other side of her.

if the fridge had been empty, or the place a mess, they would have.

checked this all out beforehand.
i'm really not an idiot.

[2pooped2pop]

292. u saidcops were out front talking to dfs

and wonder if they will get a visit from cps. CPS is dfs. They will be getting many visits.

[mopinko]

297. cpd=chicago police department dcfs=dept of children and family services.

sorry for using the local lingo.

[2pooped2pop]

345. then what is this

sarge is still sitting in front of the house, tho, and talking to dcfs.

isn't that police still sitting in front of house talking to dfs?


and cps responds within 24hrs. because in that same edited version you said you couldn't wait the two months it will take. Do I have to go to the edited version and paste that here too?

[mopinko]

405. all i edited is in bold.

i added some tags, and all text is bold.
dont play.

[2pooped2pop]

449. read the edited versions for the whole thing

[Brickbat]

58. You didn't give her the benefit of the doubt. Why should the system?

[mopinko]

233. i did give the the doubt, and tried to hook her up with help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[Brickbat]

243. Calling the cops doesn't really seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt.

[mopinko]

402. i tried everything else.

i honestly did.

and as noted, it was important to have witnesses in this particular case.

[moriah]

63. Don't be so sure.

You were alleging serious child neglect -- that the children were being left alone overnight -- in one case a five year old, and the prevailing wisdom is that unless the other child is in junior high or older, they're probably too young to be considered adequate babysitters. Also the fact there was no hot water is a serious child neglect issue.

If you didn't expect anything to happen, why'd you make the report? Because you could have accomplished more, and in a kinder way, by saying "The next time I'm aware that your children are unsupervised at night, or if you don't get the gas turned on in 10 days I will have no choice but to file a report. In the meantime, you can bathe the kids at my house, and here's the number for the LIHEAP program and the application to help you get your gas restored. I'll be happy to sit for your son while you go to their office and meet with the alderman."

As their landlord, I'm aware you can't be their social worker.

But unless you are a mandated reporter and were concerned about liability for delay, and have been willing to make these contacts in the past, the above offer seems good as a last-ditch plea before invoking child protective services. And then the report could show also that she'd even refused to do anything after your attempt, or became hostile, etc.

[mopinko]

445. i did all that and more.

and really, i am a old lady, and sick right now, and i STILL offered to let the kid hang out with me. i tried everything. i got her hooked up with an agency, and she couldnt get liheap. they had a second option for her, but she didnt go get it.

and i do have some liability. besides the fact that my daughter lives upstairs, chicago requires landlord to pay attention to what is going on in their units.

[Cal Carpenter]

500. "chicago requires landlord to pay attention to what is going on in their units"

I would be interested to see a copy/paste or link to the actual law about this. Because, however vaguely you have worded this, I don't believe it for a second.

Tenants have a right to privacy. Landlords are supposed to leave tenants the fuck alone. You are not to peer in their windows, you are not law enforcement, you are not a social worker, you are NOT THEIR FAMILY. You are the landlord, period. You don't seem to understand what that means.

The fact that you want to rent to people who are 'in your heart' or whatever wording you used elsewhere? What the hell, start a fucking commune. Don't be a landlord.

All you have is a business relationship with this tenant. If she's not paying rent, start eviction proceedings, or cut her a break. She doesn't owe you anything other than what is in the terms of the lease.

Leave that poor fucking family alone.

[TorchTheWitch]

517. in pa where I live I believe it's called

a tenant's right to peaceful enjoyment of the property. The landlord has to give something like 24 hours notice before they can enter the property unless for some kind of emergency (like the house is burning down and the tenant isn't there). The tenant has a right to privacy without the landlord calling or coming by often, checking out the property from the outside, peeking in windows, questioning the tenant about their guests for no legitimate reason, questioning the tenant about how they live or what they do on the premises, etc.

The landlord is allowed to inspect the property giving notice of when and only for reasonable reasons, like to fix maintenance problems and once a year to see if the tenant is using the property legally and appropriately (not doing anything illegal like drugs or allowing underage drinking, and to make sure they are keeping the place relatively clean, not bashing holes in the walls, putting up permanent fixtures without permission, etc.). They can't let themselves in for these inspections or maintenance issues and must knock and be admitted. They are allowed to have a key to the property but only use it in case of emergency, like a fire, water pipe bursting, etc. when the tenant is not at home to answer the door. A landlord has NO right to pry into a tenant's personal life or question other people about their personal life nor do any other snooping on the tenant to see what they doing noticing their comings and goings, how long they are out or at the property, who they invite as guests, etc.

There's a lot of other stuff, but that's the general basics.

I had an old landlord that was a creepy pervert that was constantly calling or stopping by for no reason at all than to bug me. He also said a lot of inappropriate things during these calls and "just stopping by" invasive visits. One of the things I like so much about the landlord I have now is that she leaves me the hell alone.

[yeoman6987]

77. Section 8 is a two year wait in most circumstances

So add 2 years to the date filed and you will have an idea on when she will be "evaluated" for Section 8 housing. It is a very clogged system with little funding and more people than ever. Good Luck!

[mopinko]

317. the wait is interminable in chicago

where i just saw them foul up 2 good apartments with active landlords, just with their f'ed up scheduling, and bullshit attitude.
they stopped taking apps last year. people wait decades.

[PeaceNikki]

103. What is so ridiculous about CHA code? I read the inspection checklist. Seems reasonable.

http://www.thecha.org/filebin/hcv/HQS_Self-Inspection_Checklist_2012.pdf

http://www.thecha.org/pages/property_owners/80.php

[Gormy Cuss]

174. The self-inspection checklist is based on HUD's Housing Quality Standards form

which is what the S8 inspector uses to assess a potential Section 8 unit. IOW, it's not something the Chicago Housing Authority dreamed up on its own. As I wrote above, it's a habitability standard, hardly onerous.

[mopinko]

237. its really not so much the code. i have no problem fixing things.

our first inspection with them was great. he loved it. we got bounced because they are assholes about scheduling and meeting people to check apartment.

THEY totally muffed one appointment, and we ended up missing 2, and therefore a great unit was not enrolled in the program. that is the pissy part, really.

[magical thyme]

440. so they missed 1 appointment and you missed 2 appointments, but it's all their fault

you just keep digging yourself in deeper and deeper here.

[mopinko]

480. no, they blew one, then we missed one.

but they tagged me for both.
and the one that was blown was because they refused to ring the bell at my house, 2 doors away. i saw the guy in his UNMARKED vehicle just as he was putting it in gear. i ran out waving the keys at him, and he took off anyway.

[BainsBane]

108. Then what was the point of notifying the police?

It sounds to me like she needs help more than anything. She is short on resources. You didn't mention any physical abuse. She needs child care, which she undoubtedly cannot afford.

[mopinko]

229. the point was exactly to work the system for those boys

she is short, but she also makes dumb choices. she drives the kids to a school 15 minutes away, tho the neighborhood school is just excellent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[BainsBane]

234. Now you don't like the school she sends her kids to?

Did it occur to you that maybe the kids have friends at that school and feel more comfortable there? That doesn't amount to neglect, and it isn't your business. Period. Being a landlady doesn't give you the right to control your tenants lives. The only thing you have a right to expect from them is rent. Her school choices, when she works, or anything else is none of your business.

[uppityperson]

250. Elsewhere she is upset that the 5 yr old isn't in preschool. Odd

then a bright curious little boy who ought to be in preschool sits in the dark and watched public tv

[mopinko]

255. yeah, he belongs in preschool.

he used to go, but she told me she took him out because he wasnt learning enough. he couldnt read yet.

he misses it, and belongs in a rich environment. this is not how you grow a whole healthy brain.

[uppityperson]

261. You do know preschool is optional, don't you? Again, it can be frustrating but reporting him for not

going to preschool? Or having that impact your report?
w.t.f
FWFW, I have lived in low income area, ended up having several neighborhood kids hanging out at my place, playing with my kid, while their parents worked or slept. If a parent did not want their kid over, no problem. If a parent did not want to accept my offerings, no problem.

It can be frustrating but the fact is you are not the parent and having things like "mom drives them to a non-neighborhood school" and for some reason also "he doesn't go to preschool" impact your reporting them, or to "prove" how bad she is, is just wrong.

[BainsBane]

280. none of that is your concern

Who cares what you think about the child's upbringing? It is entirely irrelevant. Who do you think you are to pass such judgments on another person's life? The fact you nose into their business and then call the cops is far more destructive than anything that mother is doing. Hopefully this will be a wakeup call to the mother to find herself an apartment where the owner doesn't think she has a right to control her tenants lives.

[Cal Carpenter]

296. ^^This times a zillion

I have had crappy landlords but I can't even imagine having one as nosy, intrusive, judgmental, as the OP. And to act like they're calling the cops for the woman's own good is the most patronizing bullshit....

FFS mopinko you are a LANDLORD. Do you have no understanding of the nature of that relationship? Holy shit.

Ugh I gotta stop or I'll get myself in trouble.

[laundry_queen]

341. Sounds like someone has boundary issues. nt

[mopinko]

379. i warned them when they moved in that i watch what goes on in my building.

and really, this is not personal. it was very hard.
but i have one property, part of my little farm.
my retirement.
my daughter lives upstair.
this is a family, and she wanted it that way.
honestly, she bring all the relatives by to meet me when they visit.
i have tried to be there for her, and help her.

but when the other adult in the house comes to me, and tells me they are being left alone all night, and otherwise mistreated, am i really supposed to sit on my hands? really?

[BainsBane]

418. feudalism was abolished centuries ago.

You have no right--legal or ethical--to nose in her life. Your only right is to collect rent. That is it. You have no right to her children, and that you think you do is awful.

[mopinko]

479. actually quite untrue

tho landlords are not mandatory reporters, if a landlord is aware of legal infractions and does nothing, there are penalties. dont know about where you are, but that is the way it is here. and i am in hot water with my friend the alderman for it.

[uppityperson]

417. "he used to go" yet you also say "he is in a public school program". Which is it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025090842#post314
" he is in a public school program for a couple hours in the morning."

So, he "used to go" but in post 314 "he is in a..program".

Which is it?

[uppityperson]

249. I thought you said the 5 yr old isn't in school, that was a complaint of yours.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025090842#post242

then a bright curious little boy who ought to be in preschool sits in the dark and watched public tv

So what if she drives them to another school? That is...neglectful?

[mopinko]

314. he is in a public school program for a couple hours in the morning.

then comes home to a cold dark apartment with nothing to do.
i wouldnt criticize that, except that she turned down offers to get the boy out of the house.

[pnwmom]

403. It's summer, so the 10 year old is there to play with.

And in the spring, there was probably only a few hours between when the two children got home.

[mopinko]

407. all night long. all alone. not even a phone.

honestly. would i come on here looking for support if i was that small?
well, this being du, perhaps some would.

dont think anyone here ever saw me do any such thing.

[pnwmom]

410. You are right, the kids should have a phone. I would have bought them a cheap one

from the drug store, loaded it with minutes, and told them to save it for emergencies.

[uppityperson]

416. Criticizing for turning down an "offer" makes it seem less of an "offer" and more of a demand.

[mopinko]

486. well, when you try to help someone, and they dont take it,

that is fine for an adult to do. no prob.
but when it is really the child that i am trying to help, a child who desperately wants to hang out outside, yeah, it was a last straw. but there were many, many straws before it.

[liberalhistorian]

360. Who the hell are you to decide

where a parent should or should not send their kids to school? Did it ever occur to you that maybe one of the kids has a particular issue or issues that the other school addresses better or more thoroughly, or has special staff for? My now-grown son is an aspie and during elementary and middle school he attended a school several miles from our neighborhood school just down the street because that's where the staffing knowledgeable about his condition was concentrated and they did a better job with him. Yet I can't count the number of times people who didn't know that reasoning where he was concerned made derogatory comments and snide remarks about my choice of school for him. Or maybe the boys have more friends or a better social situation there. Maybe the district recommended that particular school for any specific issues. There could be myriad reasons why, reasons which you are NOT privy to and she DOES NOT HAVE TO ANSWER TO YOU as far as her choice of schooling.

You keep changing your story here whenever you're called out on a specific aspect of your reasoning. I am especially disturbed by your being upset that she won't allow her children to spend time with you, as if that's a crime worthy of losing your children over or bothering the police with. She has every right to determine with whom her children spend their time, period. It amazes me how so many people think that they have to right to judge and question the decisions of single mothers at every turn, something they often do not do with "intact" families; I was a single mother until my son was sixteen, and I have way too much experience with that kind of attitude. And why in the hell you thought it was just fine and Jim-dandy to call the police for this and why you would NOT have thought, or been concerned about, DCF and other agencies getting involved and taking the children away, causing a nightmare of unreasonable hoops to jump through and permanent black record for the mother, and why you would have thought it better for the children to go into foster care and lose their mother, is simply beyond me.

[mopinko]

383. i didnt decide. i brought in those whose job it is to decide.

and i repeat NO ONE IS GOING TO TAKE THESE KIDS.

they are too overburdened by the serious abuse and neglect to do anything more than help this mom line up social services that she has failed to do for herself, even with my help.
i did not take this lightly. i know for a fact that this is not the kind of thing they take your kids for.
hell, get the kids an emergency phone and get the hot water back on and i wouldnt have gone this far.

and it isnt about the kid spending time WITH ME. it's about him talking and being outside v being out in the garden with one of his favorite adults. i'm sick of the look of his face when he hears no no no. and it was yet another offer of help that she didnt take.
but again, fine, as long as the are safe.
which they arent.

you are inferring an attitude that does not exist. i would call on my own kid, or a stranger. i am that way.

[uppityperson]

419. It isn't about hism spending time with you, just about being outside spending time with you?

"it isnt about the kid spending time WITH ME. it's about him talking and being outside v being out in the garden with one of his favorite adults." You also have said he loves you, you are a favorite adult.

You are reporting him because he doesn't spend outside in the garden with you, yet it isn't about spending time with you?

[mopinko]

499. no, i am reporting them because they are not safe.

yes, i am a little peeved that my upteenth offer to help, most of which have been suggested in this thread, were all rejected. it was a beautiful day. he would have had a great time. but she said no. i just dont get it. but i cant let it slide. he is a bright boy, and he NEEDS more than a cold dark room and teevee.

like i said, i tried the social worker route. including info on a city program for just her situation. they would have paid her gas bill. but she considers 3 unanswered calls over a week to be all that she can expend to get the gas back on. and frankly, i know that number is very well run. so....

and all she has to do is show up at the alderman's office. they wont help her unless she shows up. but they promise me they will help her.

[morningfog]

9. How old is the other kid? You said one was 5.

Why don't you just evict her or tell her she can't rent if someone isn't with the kids? You are making it worse for her by getting police and child services involved. It sounds like she tries to have someone there, but can't always.

[MillennialDem]

10. I agree. Not sure how this could be arranged but maybe rewrite her lease so that it requires a

roommate or babysitter. Of course I'd definitely consult an attorney, but I think a few would be willing to help out in this situation for those kids.

Of course it's too late now...

[CreekDog]

71. you can't treat someone different because they have children

that's housing discrimination.

[MillennialDem]

236. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't know that that rises to the level of discrimination - but I still

said I'd consult an attorney on the matter.

Certainly requiring tenants to be child free or directly charging more for kids certainly would be housing discrimination, but again I'm not sure this rises to that level. If a tenant is booted because he or she can't keep their kids under control (ie destroying property, harassing other tenants, etc) is that discrimination against a tenant with kids? NO.

In any case if she can't be arsed to have a babysitter or have some other arrangement with the other tenants / LL of the building to help watch her kids then the OP has no choice but to turn her in.

[mopinko]

230. i did tell her. i told her flat out that i was going to call.

she cant get along with anyone. i love her, but she is fierce about all the wrong things.

and no way i would evict her at this point.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094278

[uppityperson]

252. you won't evict her, but look down on her for driving her kids to a school that isn't right there,

look down on her for not borrowing books from you, look down on her for working, look down on her for pretty much everything?

[NM_Birder]

11. Be proud when they take the kids away. Shes not a good mom anyway right ?

[Brickbat]

12. "i have tried to hook her up with some help, but she is pretty, well, not working it."

What does that even mean?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. i think it loosely translates into

" i am annoyed that she doesn't want me involved, hence, although i know the foster system fucks people up, i will force these kids into that system"

[Brickbat]

57. "I gave her a list of agencies that can help, and I can't believe she hasn't changed her lifestyle"

"She's not a bad person, but I'll call the cops anyway."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. yeah, its hella easy to judge poor single mothers, because truly they do not have the resouces

that soccer moms do and therefore holding them up to that standard is absurd

i think one problem with american egalitarianism is the belief that we can all do everything to the capacity of those who have money. it's just simply not true.

i can feed my cats wellness because i can afford it, but i need to recognize that poorer people have the right to pets and if friskies is all they can afford, it doesn't make them bad pet owners. that pet would be far worse off in a shelter.


edited to add: i know a child is not a pet but the analogy is that much more intense for children. whether elites like it or not, the poor have a right to have kids. these kids (unless they are literally being tortured/drugged or exposed to extreme danger) are better of with their parents than in foster care etc.

[Brickbat]

67. And with all the studies that have come out regarding the effects of stress and swing-shift work on

the brain, it's important to consider how much more difficult it can be to survive a chronically stressful situation. People just don't have the bandwidth to do it all sometimes.

[bettyellen]

257. so, the poor should not have kids at all-because they won't be catapulted into the middle class?

[Brickbat]

302. Which I said exactly nowhere.

[bettyellen]

304. Sorry if I misunderstood. I have seen it suggested here, that people who are not rock solid

financially should just not have kids. Seen it a few times. I guess don't realize, that is 2/3 of society these days.

[Brickbat]

365. No apology necessary -- you're right, a lot of society seems to think that being poor means you're

an unfit parent. It's infuriating.

[bettyellen]

375. Infuriating is right!

[Ed Suspicious]

455. The poor do have kids. I think the implication, not made by Brickbat, but by the people who I think

you might be talking about is that the kids should be ripped from the poor and given to foster families until the disease of poverty is eradicated from the parent. I mean, what else could the goal be when the decision and implications of involving social services is reasoned through?

[mopinko]

265. i know this issue inside and out.

that is why it upsets me. she IS tired. she does work hard.

[Ed Suspicious]

454. Well said. And even more importantly, children are often not a choice like a pet who can be pawned

off to a shelter, or a craigslist add respondent when the going gets tough. Once they are her, they are necessarily now and going forward, and intimate part of our lives. We can't say, well, i don't have time for a child anymore. No, we have to make due and make a go of it as a family. And if that means everyone gets a little less food at the table or that the kids need to learn earlier than optimal to look after themselves, it's a risk we need to take and a reality we have to live with.

No, I am not impressed with the OP. Not at all. It is cold and calloused toward someone who in all likelihood is doing the best she can with the tools she has available.

Potentially breaking up a family because something might not be ideal or even acceptable to our bourgeois sensibilities is the ultimate in cruelty and inhumanity.

[mopinko]

259. means i call my alderman and get some info on money to get her gas back on.

one of them was to call the city, but she called 3 times in 2 weeks, and no one picked up. so she gave up. plus i dont really believe that. the 311 number works pretty well.

[Autumn]

13. One child is five, how old is the other? Where is he while the

five year old is stuck in the house while Mom sleeps?

[pnwmom]

308. A 10 year old is there, too. n/t

[mopinko]

389. he is at school

5yo is only in pre-k. short day.
he used to go to a good day care till brother got home.

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. Why not lower the rent so she can get help? nt

[riverwalker]

15. you called the cops because they were alone for 1 hour?

from 6-7? if you were so "concerned" did you offer to watch them?

[Boom Sound 416]

139. Fail

[mopinko]

260. no i didnt and yes i did.

she was leaving them alone almost every night. i just happened to call on a night that the roommate was home. when she left, the cops came back. they told me to call them back, and the roommate made sure to wake me up so that i could.

[polly7]

18. I always think of the 'it takes a village' quote when I see things like this.

A single, struggling mother with no place to turn ... I wonder how hard it would be to organize some sort of 'sleep-care' swap sort of thing among tenants, maybe others didn't even know she was having trouble? Very sad if she loses her kids, though I can understand your concern. I just think people need to 'do' more to help one another in these situations.

[mopinko]

376. its only a 2flat.

and she AINT gonna lose her kids.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. I assume her largest expense is rent, paid to you.

And the green grass grows all around, all around.

[mopinko]

395. yeah, to the bank, to the tax man, to the hardware store,

rescued an old building from a slumlord, dumped everything we could spare into getting it fixed up.
an obvious asshole, fersher.

[Ed Suspicious]

456. You are quite the well intentioned busybody already stretched thin, but maybe you could find it in

your heart the strength to maybe take up a second job to foot the bills to give this destitute mother and her kids a break.

[Bluenorthwest]

502. You take her money, then complain she does not have enough.

And that's all I said. I did not, as you rudely suggest, call you an obvious anything. Who do you think you are to speak to others in that manner?
You take her money, then report her for not affording childcare.
And you know what? If you are still paying the bank, you don't even own that building, the bank does, you are in debt for that building, which you could not afford to buy without the money you collect from people who you then report for being broke.

You take her money. Then you report her for not meeting your standard of living. But you still take that money.

That's the whole story.

[NCTraveler]

22. How old is her other child?

Seems to be a lot missing here.

"i have tried to hook her up with some help, but she is pretty, well, not working it." What does that mean?

Working nights and needing sleep during the day cheeses you?

She tries to have someone there when she is not there.

Sounds like this single mom and her children don't need the cops. Just going from what you posted.

Once again, how old is the other child?

[Bettie]

24. In what way is she 'not a good mom'

Your only evidence of this has been that she doesn't let her 5 year old hang out with you and that she works and sometimes doesn't have someone there with the kids. So, how is she a bad mom?

Sadly, the reality is that she is doing what she can to keep her life together.

And you call CPS on her.

I get that she needs to have someone with the kids, but after rent, food, clothing, etc. often there is nothing left.

How about offering to watch the kids yourself? I did this with a single mom in my town, while she worked overnight shifts. I took them in during the day while she slept too, because it was the right thing to do.

[boston bean]

25. Well, if the mother won't let her kids "hang" with her/him

I guess the only recourse is to call DCF and the cops.

WTF???

[magical thyme]

45. yeah, I picked up on that too.

Maybe she didn't trust her/him "hanging with her kids" for good reason.

[Puzzledtraveller]

358. Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't just me creeped out by that.

[polly7]

32. I agree.

I did it also, a long time ago with a mom who was struggling and ended up keeping her kids for about a month until she got some things straightened out. I was working, but could afford a babysitter and had very good neighbour friends who pitched in ... I wonder how they're all doing today, but I know those kids loved their mom more than anything and it would have been heart-breaking to see them separated.

[Ilsa]

186. I think it's because she won't cook

Homegrown nutritious meals using gas instead of the microwave. Because every woman has a hidden Rachel Ray inside her. And plenty of money for cooking ingredients.

[mopinko]

316. i have a business to run, but have invited the child many times.

and again, the kids are home alone all night 4-5 nights a week, and have no heat or hot water. even now it is chilly.

[Egnever]

359. How about reducing the rent the amount a babysitter would cost?

Nah better to call the cops.

[mopinko]

372. how about i just sink my old age to take care of someone else's children.

do i need to legally adopt them, or just lose my building?

[ScreamingMeemie]

381. So then telling their mother that the kids come first was a lie in order to get the coveted

"grandma" title?

[pnwmom]

26. If she loves them and they know it, I'm not sure they'll be better off in the system.

The 5 year old will be in kindergarten soon, if s/he isn't already. If the other one is older, s/he's already in school.

Cooking all food in the microwave and not letting them hang out with you doesn't necessarily constitute poor mothering.

I agree this isn't optimal, by far, but neither is being a child in the foster care system.

Did you ever tell her you were worried about her kids being alone?

[bigtree]

29. ugh

It's not as if it's not hard enough for her, now she'll have to deal with the cops and likely state folks looking at taking her kids away? I really don't think you know what you're doing. It sounds more vindictive than helpful and doesn't promise much more than penalizing this woman and her kids in the end.

[MadrasT]

30. +1

[grattsl]

31. Sorry to have to say this but...

If I had done what you did I would be ashamed of myself. I certainly wouldn't freely admit to having done it. I am praying that you did not destroy her family today. I fear you did. She may well have her kids taken from her because she is trying to support them. I suspect the children are better off with her than in foster care. My advice to you is that sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is to keep your nose out of their business.

[Boom Sound 416]

141. Even if the kids are removed

It's for their safety.

It's not forever

We're supposed to believe in and contribute to the system, no?

[CreekDog]

153. smooth

[BainsBane]

156. Why are we supposed to believe in the system?

Last edited Fri Jun 13, 2014, 03:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Are we supposed to ignore hundreds of stories of serious physical and sexual abuse in foster care?

[uppityperson]

178. You think abuse is funny? wtf?

[treestar]

342. Does it always not work out?

Stories get told due to being unusual.

The foster care system exists because some parents can't cope. Yet it is coming across that it means certain abuse. I doubt that's true.

You can't leave kids alone - that's a misdemeanor. There is a minimum age - in my state it is 12.

[uppityperson]

171. Children are not removed "forever" from homes? huh

[sabrina 1]

235. No we're not supposed to 'believe in the system'. We are supposed to have compassion

And this mother is a perfect example of what happened as a result of Welfare Reform. Remember that? It too was supposed to be 'fixed'. It forced mothers out of their homes to go to jobs that sometimes were miles away, for minimum wage or lose any other benefits they might need.

This society SUCKS. We place more importance on punishing people than helping them.

Maybe the 'system' could help moms to stay at home until their children are older because it's far more important that a child stays with his/her own mother than throw them into the foster care system where children are often abused. I can't think of a more important job than BEING a mother.

So pay her to stay home, it's a tough job being a mom, and then nosy neighbors won't have to rat her out to the police. And her kids will be a whole lot happier.

[bravenak]

351. Damn Sabrina you are spot on today!

I know my friends 2 girls went to foster care while she was in jail for sonething her baby's daddy stole from her job. Her 4 year old was raped by her fister dad during the 6 months she was gone and my never be able to have children. Our system is horrible.

[sabrina 1]

484. Omg that just turned my stomach bravenak. A four year old!

I don't know what can be done to change things, but imo, THIS is one of the most important issues that needs addressing and was SUPPOSED to be after Clinton signed that horrible bill, at least that is what we were told.

Still waiting and in the meantime we have people like the OP who don't seem to understand the harm they may be doing to an entire family.

[bravenak]

503. They gave the child a settlement.

Money. It could never be enough. And the guy went to jail for a very short time. Less time than her mother did for stealing money she didn't steal. This is a crazy country.

[DesMoinesDem]

34. Congratulations. You just made things much, much worse.

Shame on you.

[WinkyDink]

35. She has a crappy (literally) job, 2 kids and no man, RENT PLUS UTILITIES, and doesn't want her kid

"hang(ing) out with" you.

HOW DO YOU KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT HER SLEEPING HABITS AND HER ROOMMATE?

WHY DON'T YOU HELP HER WITH UTILITIES?

WHO ARE YOU TO TELL THE COPS WHAT YOU "EXPECT" OF THEM??

[Autumn]

37. I find it interesting that she has been asked the age of the second child

several times but hasn't answered that.

[NCTraveler]

40. The person has responded to a couple of posts AFTER that question was asked.

Still hasn't given an answer.

[juajen]

335. Earlier, she said he was 10, if i'm not misaken.

[dilby]

60. What a terrible mom, working a job to try and support her children by herself might I add.

Lucky for those children you were around because without you they would still have a mom instead of a foster system where they will more than likely get to experience all of the most wonderful things like physical abuse and being molested. Please go pat yourself on the back for making the world a better place for everyone.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. do you really think these kids will be better off in foster care?

also, i dont think she is a bad mom for not letting her kids hang out with you. i wouldn't let my kids hang out with my landlord randomly either.

she seems like she is trying her best and it seems like you are judging her for not being middle class.

[mopinko]

282. she invites me to their parties. he calls me grandma.

i accepted them as family, and they accepted me.
i think she is a bad mom for keeping a kid in a dark, cold apartment when they could be helping grandma in the garden.

[B2G]

298. You are NOT their Grandma, and

it' clear they don't think of you as such.

I'm beginning to question your motives here...as I'm sure your tenant is. I'd run like hell personally.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

309. did you guys have a fallout? because people accept help unless the help came with too many strings

or a good dose of creepiness

[mopinko]

313. well we are fell out now, i guess.

no, she is a hard head who wont take help or advise.
that's what pisses me off about her not letting him hang with me. for the boy. stale public tv in a dark, cold apartment of a couple hours in the garden with grandma.

but nope, even when i yelled at her about the heat, we still always hug.
the boy jumps into my arms after his fastest sprint when he sees me.
this morning he asked me why it was cold, and why the hot water doesnt work. i always fix things. now he is disappointed in me.

[BainsBane]

327. You're not grandma

You're the landlord. You have no right to expect a personal relationship with her or her children if she doesn't wish it. The more you speak about this family, the more it seems your reasons for calling the police were personal.

[mopinko]

370. not even. they made me the grandma.

in a serious promise. and i told her then that kids come first.

if anything, my affection for ALL of them has kept me from getting them out long ago.

[ScreamingMeemie]

378. I am not feeling any sort of "affection" past or present from you toward anyone but the

5-year-old.

That said, I was a single mom. I worked two jobs. I often slept while my daughter watched Barney videos. I had to because, otherwise, I would have never slept. I managed to keep a roof over our heads without outside help. It wasn't perfect, and I am sad because I missed out on a lot of her life. I am betting this mother is just as sad and works just as hard. You don't get to live in her head and tell us who she is because you're mad that you don't get to be in charge.

Grandmas would help out. Love the Grandma name? and "the kids come first?" Then put warm water in their bathtub. You have the power. Otherwise, this is so much BS.

Respectfully,

Laura

[snooper2]

386. Do you have any grandkids of your own?

[BainsBane]

420. They clearly did NOT make you Grandma

since the mother has said she doesn't want you near her child, and elsewhere in this thread you said you never see the boy. You say they were friendly at first and then she withdrew. We are all getting a good sense of why that is. She doesn't trust you, and she has very good reasons for it. You have a sense of entitlement over the 5 yr old that is bizarre. Also the fact you barely mention the 10 yr old is strange. If it is neglectful for the five year old, then it is for the ten year old too. If it isn't for the ten year old, it isn't for the five year old.

[cali]

333. go look in the mirror. a long hard look. you clearly have no idea how you're coming off

and as has been pointed out, you are not this child's grandmother, but you persist in referring to yourself as such. sounds to me like you want this kid and you're willing to break up the family to get him.

creepy. very creepy.

[Mrdrboi]

428. I know right. My creep senses are tingling

Something seems very off here. I question the motives of the OP. I get the feeling the OP has a hidden agenda..

[Cal Carpenter]

338. You are a fucking landlord

Do you not understand what that means? Do you not understand the dynamics of that relationship, the power differential, the inappropriateness of what you are doing and why? IT IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.

They are TENANTS and you are the property owner, they are not your family. You are not a social worker, you are not a counselor. How do you not see how fucked up your attitude is?

Not to mention your insisting that calling the cops doesn't put the mother in jeopardy of losing her children. You are playing with their lives. Just do your job and be a fucking landlord. Cover their gas bill, or evict them, but stop meddling with their personal lives. I repeat: IT IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.

Oh my god.

[Ed Suspicious]

467. +1

[liberalhistorian]

362. You mean she won't take

YOUR "help and advise", don't you? Since when is someone required to do that?

[tammywammy]

363. You're not the grandma.

The more I read your posts, the creepier you come off.

[mopinko]

477. she made me the grandma.

her own mother is far away, and she asked to be my daughter.
its called friendship and community. i have to wonder about the people who see the creepy.

[arthritisR_US]

514. I think she did that because she thought you had a heart and because you hold all

the power and judgements in this situation so it might be a way for her to level the playing field. However, her hope was not realized because not everyone has empathy, the ability to walk a mile in another's shoes.

[uppityperson]

421. "i think she is a bad mom for keeping a kid in a dark, cold apartment when they could be helping..."

"i think she is a bad mom for keeping a kid in a dark, cold apartment when they could be helping grandma in the garden." "grandma" meaning you.

You think she is a "bad mom" for denying you access to her child? Seriously?

[mopinko]

493. no, i think she is a bad mom for refusing an offer of help that would have been

the good thing FOR THE BOY.
who thinks a bouncy little boy belongs inside on a sunny day when someone would watch them for you?

[uppityperson]

501. There is a difference between an "offer" and a "demand".

Offers are refusable and getting pissed because someone refuses an Offer tells me you were not truly offering but demanding.

[MADem]

508. Maybe the bouncy boy has allergies or some other medical condition?

It's very strange, your knowledge of small details--how do you know what they watch on tv?

I agree with those who say that you are not the grandmother. You are the landlord, the owner, the boss of the house, and that family has to pay you to stay there. There's no personal relationship; it's a business one.

You're way out of line. It's obvious this woman does NOT want her children near you, and that is her choice. Whether it is accurate or not, you are coming off like you are punishing the woman because she won't let you play with her children--the youngest one, particularly.

Did you ever stop to think that this woman wants those daylight hours with her children herself? And maybe they keep the TV running so you don't hear their every word?

[Antler]

39. Well.. That was nosy...

Last edited Fri Jun 13, 2014, 12:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Does a 6 year old really need to be stared at 24/7?

How old is the other child?

[mattclearing]

42. I can't imagine why she wouldn't let her kids stay with you.

You sound so thoughtful and helpful. Between taking her money for rent, judging her parenting, calling the cops and complaining about the situation like you are the one being wronged, you sound like a stellar landlord and model citizen. If only she had listened to you in your infinite wisdom, she wouldn't now be under even more pressure in an impossible situation. Pat yourself on the back. You are awesome.

[CreekDog]

55. a stellar landlord with an apartment that is not up to code

well HUD code, i'm sure it passes county codes with flying colors!

[mitchtv]

98. +1

Thanks

[Hassin Bin Sober]

110. More like slumlord from the sound of it.

[Rhinodawg]

92. I agree

poor kids...probably end up with kids in foster care.

terrible.

[treestar]

346. The kids might not have been alone though

The kids can't be left alone. If they are, that is a violation of the law.

You can't leave your kids alone. It is not "judgmental" to call the cops then. It's against the law to leave kids under certain ages alone. It would be like watching me run a stop sign and not expecting to get a ticket, because I can't afford it.

You have to seek out some help if you have kids and will not be able to be with them yourself. It's against the law not to.

[Kali]

361. in many perts of the world 10 year olds work full time jobs.

while it is not ideal, there are plenty of ten year olds who shoulder more responsibility than what has been described here.

if the kids are healthy and there is no evidence of real abuse - beatings, starvation, excessive verbal abuse etc, then leaving them alone for a few hours at night (with their knowledge and some strategy for emergencies) is probably not all that harmful.

[treestar]

482. That is bad but here each US state will have a

law about it and it's a violation of that law.

It is a good thing we have laws against child labor, too.

[cali]

43. I don't think what you did was helpful to this family

It sounds more like you're peeved that you've been received as less than some hero. You are a nosy, interfering landlord from what I can see. Helping someone is about THEM not YOU.

[mopinko]

498. well, first your assumptions are bassakwards, but

i guess only time will tell.
obviously, at this point, i will be reporting back for another beating.

[magical thyme]

47. as a home health aid she may not have a lot of choice about working graveyard

That may be the only work she can get. It is hard, hard work. How dare she "catch up on her sleep" after working what is a brutally difficult shift to work.

From what I read in your first post, you come across as meddling and judgemental. And I certainly would be suspicious of a landlord wanting to "hang out with" my 5 year old.

I do much of my cooking with a microwave, too. You can cook most anything in a microwave, it is far cheaper than gas and I consider it less dangerous in many ways than open flames. I guess that makes me somehow "inferior" in your opinion.

Frankly it's kind of creepy the amount you know about her schedule, her roommate's schedule, that you've contacted her roommate and gotten the roommate to assist you in calling the cops down on this single mom (e.g. stab her in the back), etc.

Are the children fed? Clothed? Going to school when they're supposed to be? Do you hear her verbally abusing them? Hitting them? Do they have bruises?

If not, myob.

When I was 5 years old I was very happy to curl up with coloring books and play quietly with my toys. Maybe her 5 year old is happy that way too, just to have mom napping nearby.

[mopinko]

269. its the no hot water for bathing. and yes, they are in the middle of my job.

so, yes, i know who comes and goes when. i am the old crone on the block. and proud of it.

and this kid is the opposite of that. he can barely sit still. and he never, ever get to play in the yard.
and she does nothing but nitpick this kid. dont dont dont dont.
the 10yo does a hella chores, which is fine. he gets his bro ready for school, which aint easy.
he is a very sweet boy. he loves his brother. but no way could he handle an emergency.

[MADem]

509. Small children don't need a lot of hot water--she can heat some up on the stove and add it to a bath

and that will do the trick. I know people who live off the grid, and they have hot baths...they use a woodstove instead of the kitchen stove or a hot plate if the stove is gas and the gas is turned off.

You can even heat water in a microwave if needs must.

[uponit7771]

50. I don't see how this helped in the long run.... seems like it'll hurt more than anything

[phil89]

52. Just added a little misery to the world

And may have cost someone their kids. If only she'd let them hang out you. Baffling.

[dem in texas]

59. There are other sources to call besides the police

Couldn't you have called a social service agency or a church. There are other sources for her to turn to without getting the police involved. If you were up watching in the middle of the night, why didn't you volunteer to watch the kids since you say you like them so much. Are you wanting to get her moved out of your place?

[polly7]

65. +1000. nt.

[mopinko]

401. no, i dont want her to move out.

and i tried to hook her up with several other sources of help.

and no, i do not have to adopt her kids. i am an old lady.

[JVS]

62. You did the right thing.

A household that has kids being neglected and has had 3 months of a utility being shut off is on the skids. It's better to intervene now before it gets to a dangerous level.

[WinkyDink]

193. The OP is the property owner. The OP essentially shut off the utilities by not giving a break on

the RENT. AND WTH kind of place doesn't INCLUDE the basic utilities??

[mopinko]

290. oh ffs.

first, the kind of place is the kind i bought. in fact, it was configured that way to max subsidies that were in place at the time.

give her a break. well i havent evicted her, even tho i have yet to see the rent anything close to on time.
this building, and my farm, is my retirement. i am 60 and in less than perfect health. i cant afford to support everyone having a hard time.

[arcane1]

66. Why not give her a break on rent so she can pay a sitter until things pick up?

I don't know you or this situation beyond this OP, but it sounds like you did a crappy thing.

[LeftyMom]

68. Why are you stalking your tenant?

You're monitoring her hourly comings and goings and getting others to provide you with information. You're trying to use her kids to spend time with her. This is creepy, creepy behavior.

[tammywammy]

80. Very creepy. n/t

[CreekDog]

93. and complaining that the shades are down

jeez.

[PeaceNikki]

69. I have to agree with the others that you probably made things worse. How old is the other child?

[CreekDog]

74. The OP is refusing to answer that question

been asked it several times, has responded to other questions, ignoring that one.

[morningfog]

213. The OP seems to have vanished altogether.

[840high]

368. 10 years old - answered many times.

[Tree-Hugger]

70. Kicking this

to ask the age of the other child....

[dilby]

73. So I am going to assume the other child is between 9-13.

Since you are not telling anyone how old that child is.

[840high]

369. 10 yrs old

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. this. nt

[NCTraveler]

84. +1 nt

[PeaceNikki]

86. Hey, you!

[Shakespeare]

88. HOWDY!!!

(I almost forgot how to do the smilies!)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

96. you and CreekDog have been very eloquent here...

spot on! i just can't believe what i am reading. no one calls the cops to HELP in a situation like this...

sP

[Rhinodawg]

97. +1

[yeoman6987]

112. The OP is incredible to say the least

The part that really concerns me and quite frankly mystifies me (if she really was trying to help) is the part where the police came to investigate and found nothing really wrong, but then insisted that the police stay to ensure she was "caught". That was the disturbing part to me.

[Chellee]

118. This.

Thank you.

Also, wanting the 5 year old to hang out with him/her, very, very creepy. If I were this mom I would be afraid to go to work because the person with a key to my apartment is WAY too interested in my kid.

[Lex]

76. I definitely would've tried to work it out with her first before calling authorities.

That seems like a very very last resort measure, considering what might happen with the kids should they be taken away, or even split apart.

[raccoon]

78. Where are the kids' fathers? Are they contributing any money to the family?

I'll get roasted for this, I know. But I'm just asking.

[LeftyMom]

81. The OP is the landlord, not a social worker. The only time any of that was their business

was when the mom was showing proof of income while applying for the apartment.

At no point is posting the tenant's business on DU appropriate. Especially saying when the children will be home alone- if mo is so concerned for them she shouldn't be announcing their vulnerable times to the internet.

[myrna minx]

481. I'm sure HUD would be interested in this creepy landlord -

this whole situation seems like a host of privacy and fair housing violations as well as landlord retaliation and possible stalking. It's disturbing. This is way out of bounds for a relationship between landlord and resident. Wow. I'm stunned. I'd be freaked out to know this landlord had keys to my apartment.

[Kaleva]

82. As only you have first hand knowledge of the situation, I can't say if you did right or not

[countryjake]

85. Whatever woes we think we have, single moms have it a 1000 times worse...

especially in this disgusting economy, now.

If people could just step outside themselves from time to time and imagine what it must be like to try and provide for a family all alone, skidding along on the brink of disaster, daily. Single parents often can slip into depression, yet still have to just keep on plugging away, reeling in an almost superhuman strength to hold things together, always thinking of their children and hoping for brighter days.

There are still some programs available that can make the struggle much better for a single parent family, but even taking the time to simply investigate such options can be practically impossible, so that is how a good samaritan might find a way to be helpful, if they sincerely care about giving a hand up to a family. Just offering to look into locating support groups, child-care services, or providing phone numbers, transportation, a plate of fresh-baked cookies, can work wonders in making a mother realize that she is not alone and help to keep her hope alive.

I'll not say what you should or shouldn't have done; I don't know anything about you or the specifics of the situation you've described. But I do know that whenever the authorities step into the lives of struggling families, things seldom improve for the children.

[mopinko]

286. i was a single mom for 10 years.

all of the above.

trust me, i tried to help.

[d_r]

94. I am going to say this different from all of y'all

Look.
This sucks.
It sucks that the mom is working like that and then have a nosy landlord call the cops on her when she is doing the best she can.
I get that.
But here's the thing.

All of us, any of us, EACH of us have a moral obligation to alert the authorities if we SUSPECT abuse or neglect of children. Period.

It isn't up to us to be detectives. It isn't up to us to investigate. It isn't up to us to be the judge. It isn't up to us to be a host on a talk show and talk about how unfair society is. It isn't up to us to get in to the drama and be a part of the soap opera. It isn't for us to threaten and say "one more time and I'll report" or anything like that.

It IS our responsibility to contact the authorities.

We do not gather the evidence to "prove" the abuse or neglect. That is what the system is for.

If we SUSPECT abuse or neglect we must report. Not if we can "prove." Not if we think it will be better than not reporting. Not if we think it is fair or not. IF WE SUSPECT.

Yes, I understand when people don't trust the system to do what it is supposed to do, but ultimately we have to trust it. It is a best chance at keeping children safe.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. actually, the cops and the system fail the poor terribly. so we have to be careful when we involve

them in the lives of the poor.

[d_r]

105. we can't.

we can't and we shouldn't. We can't say "oh I think this kid is neglected but I worry the system will fail them." When we do that, WE fail them. None of us have a crystal ball. We should all work to make the system better but we can not make judgements like that. It is our moral obligation to report suspicions of abuse and neglect, period.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

115. yes, we can. we can say "am i just being judgmental because i dont like that the mother doesn't

listen to my great advice, or is something genuinely harmful going on?".

it's an easy enough question to answer

[d_r]

117. well I think that

is part of how I define "SUSPECT" abuse or neglect.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

125. abuse or neglect aren't that subjective. if you gather 10 people together, you should get 80%

agreement

when it starts getting really subjective, you've moved away from actual harm into judgmental zone.

don't get me wrong i judge parents/cat owners/dog owners all the time because they dont come up to my standard. that doesn't mean i would call the cops on them though.

what if i think feeding 5 year old soda is neglectful. should i call the cops?

[d_r]

149. If you do

the cops will tell you it wasn't neglect. I'd rather you mistake on the side of child safety, wouldn't you?

Honestly, if you judge a parent/animal owner as being harmful then you should report.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

157. no, i would rather not stigmatize poverty and pretend that the alternative for these kids is awesome

if it were, i would report half of nyc, because at least 1/2 the city isn't parenting the way i think they should.

[d_r]

160. Yes, but there is a difference

between what you think is optimal and what you think is neglectful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

167. yes, which means you need to use some level of judgment.

and not report asinine issues, like this particular person did

[d_r]

322. If someone reads

all these experts telling them not to report asinine issues and so they decide that they don't have the level of "proof" that someone thinks is required or that the situation may not pass the seriousness test and so they put off reporting a suspicion until a child is hurt or worse then I think we share the culpability.

[pnwmom]

285. You're assuming that the police and social services never make the situation worse.

I think there should be a higher threshold before involving them.

[mopinko]

318. actually, i know police and social services here.

not that there arent assholes, but most cops are very well trained in this kind of thing. it is a big part of their job here in the big city.
they are pros. that is my threshold.

[840high]

382. So would I.

[pnwmom]

281. You should do SOMETHING but that something doesn't necessarily require

you to report every suspicion you ever have to the authorities.

I don't see in the OP that Mopinko ever told the woman that s/he was concerned about the children being left alone and that it was wrong for her to do so. Shouldn't s/he have at least tried to be very clear with the woman before calling the cops on her? Shouldn't s/he have at least warned her that if it happened again s/he would call the police?

[d_r]

321. my concern is

people representing themselves publicly as experts and discouraging potential readers from reporting a suspicion.

No, I do not think a person should warn someone that if it happens again they will contact the authorities. In fact, I think it is a really bad idea to get involved in the drama of it. If you have a suspicion, report it. It is the job of the professionals to take that role.

[mopinko]

367. ftr, i worked my little tail off to elect a better "system"

cook county government is transforming itself as fast as they can.
and thank you.

[woo me with science]

158. +1

Unfortunately, that's true.

[CreekDog]

254. Yes, this.

many systems around the world don't fail the poor, ours isn't one of those.

oh, we could have systems like they have in other nations not as wealthy as ours but, you know...

[cali]

101. the op has NOT presented anything close to convincing me that the mother is neglectful

let alone abusive. Not even close.

[d_r]

107. again

it isn't for us to decide what the limit is. We aren't detectives and it isn't for us to investigate. The obligation to report is a SUSPICION of NEGLECT or abuse. Not to say "well, that is a high enough level to report." If you think it is neglect, you report.

[cali]

120. sorry, I worked in social services for years

you have to have a reasonable suspicion of abuse or neglect. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. What is more, to the best of my knowledge a landlord is not a mandated reporter. This sounds like malicious payback more than anything else.

[d_r]

131. I agree

you have to have a reasonable suspicion of abuse or neglect.

I do not agree about relying on the baseline of a legally mandated reporter. That is why I said "morally" obligated rather than "legally" obligated. Everyone shares the moral obligation whether their state deems them legally obligated or not. That's my opinion of course but I feel strongly about it.

ETA and I am not defending the OP, I am making a point about being cavalier in deciding whether or not to report a suspicion.

[arthritisR_US]

515. I agree, in one of her responses in this thread she stated that she had yet to see

this mom pay her rent on time....

[BainsBane]

127. She called the cops not once but twice

The OP didn't think the cops dealt with the mother harshly enough the first time, so she waited until the roommate left and the kids were alone to call the cops again.

[Gormy Cuss]

104. If we have a STRONG suspicion, sure. We call the state child welfare agency.

We don't call the police first.
We don't think it's suspicious that the tenant doesn't want her kids being pals with the landlord.
We don't think it's suspicious that a graveyard shift worker draws the shades and has her 5 year old in quiet time during the morning.
We don't delay repairs on the unit until we're sure the tenant has a Sec. 8 voucher.

Those are some of the reasons the OP's narration has rubbed people the wrong way.


eta: to save you from repeating the ANY suspicion standard, that's only for mandatory reporters. For everyone else IRL, the people who drop a dime over the tiniest suspicion tend to be the neighborhood busybodies who want everyone to conform to their narrow world view OR people who are just trying to cause trouble for the parents.

[d_r]

109. Not a "strong" suspicion

a suspicion.

Different states have different regulations and different systems.

I live in Tennessee and here the law is that all citizens must report suspicion of abuse or neglect to either the DHS, the juvenile court system, or the sheriff. If the child welfare agency is the place to contact in your state then follow that procedure.

Look, I understand, I do, about the OP's narration and I don't disagree with the "rubbed wrong way" sentiment towards it, I don't, but I am trying to stress that it is SUSPICION of neglect or abuse that is the obligation to report. We do not investigate it or wait around until we feel there is "enough" proof.

[Gormy Cuss]

113. Here, let me repeat myself since you replied while I was editing.

eta: to save you from repeating the ANY suspicion standard, that's only for mandatory reporters. For everyone else IRL, the people who drop a dime over the tiniest suspicion tend to be the neighborhood busybodies who want everyone to conform to their narrow world view OR people who are just trying to cause trouble for the parents.

That's particularly the reality in low income communities where every family probably has at least one reportable infraction.

[d_r]

116. in my state

everyone is a mandatory reporter.
I do not know your state laws.
But I said "moral" obligation, not "legal" obligation for just that point.

[Gormy Cuss]

121. There is no moral obligation to drop a dime based on a small suspicion

and I'm pretty sure it'd be really hard to suggest that what is happening here is beyond that.

In your state, it looks like the law is pretty specific and it's about clear abuse, not wild suspicion:

Code Section 37-1-401, et seq.
What Constitutes Abuse------ Any wound, injury, disability, or physical or mental condition which is of a nature as to reasonably indicate that it has been caused by brutality, abuse, or neglect; also includes sexual abuse

Mandatory Reporting Required By---- Physician, chiropractor, hospital personnel, any other health or mental health professional, spiritual healing practitioner, school teacher/personnel, judge, social worker, day care center worker, foster care worker, law enforcement officer, neighbor, relative, friend, or any other person

Basis of Report of Abuse/neglect: Having knowledge or being called on to render aid to any child suffering from or sustaining a wound or injury which is of such a nature as to reasonably indicate or which on the basis of available information appears to indicate have been caused by brutality, abuse or neglect

See more at: http://statelaws.findlaw.com/tennessee-law/tennessee-child-abuse-laws.html#sthash.hTexTzUq.dpuf



That basis is a significantly higher standard than what was delineated in the OP.

[d_r]

130. it is not up to each citizen

to be an attorney or investigator and establish proof.

Again, I think what is described by the OP sucks.

However, and I feel strongly about this, the moral obligation is to report suspicion of abuse or neglect.

I think it does a disservice to children to advocate anything less than that.

We must trust the professionals who there to investigate to do the investigation.

If we instead get involved in the drama of trying to figure out if there is proof or evidence or how much and what then we are running the risk of letting children down.

The OP, on the other hand, is murking about in the soap opera.

Look, I don't want to argue about this. I try hard to be open to other opinions and listen to other voices and can be swayed on many issues. But I am steadfast on this one. The moral obligation is to report suspicion, and I do not think any good comes from encouraging people to search for nuance.

to add to your link RE: Tennessee law, and again, I don't know your state law,
http://www.tn.gov/youth/childsafety/cah.html#Who%20is%20a%20%E2%80%9CMandated%E2%80%9D%20reporter%20of%20child%20abuse%20and%20neglect?

Who is a “Mandated” reporter of child abuse and neglect?

Tennessee Code Annotated 37-1-403(i) (1) requires all persons to report suspected cases of child abuse or neglect. “Any person who has knowledge of or is called upon to render aid to any child who is suffering from or has sustained any wound, injury, disability, or physical or mental condition, shall report such harm immediately if the harm is of such a nature as to reasonably indicated that it has been caused by brutality abuse, or neglect or that, on basis of available information, reasonably appears to have been caused by brutality, abuse, or neglect.”

[Gormy Cuss]

132. ..."wound, injury,disability, physical or mental condition..."=standard not met here.

and of course, neither is the second condition, that harm is of a nature that it is reasonable to suspect that it came from abuse or neglect.

Thinking the child may be left alone for an hour in the AM would not meet this standard.

[d_r]

140. you are reading it in the most conservative way

"who is suffering from *OR* ....."wound, injury, disability, physical or mental condition."

It does not say a child who is suffering from abuse/ neglect AND experiences a ....."wound, injury, disability, physical or mental condition." It says OR. The standard is not as restrictive as you are reading it.

And you may not think that the child being left alone for an hour in the AM meets the standard, and frankly I might agree with you, but that is not the point. The point is if it is enough that it makes someone SUSPECT abuse then it is that person's obligation to report.

What I suspect is abuse/neglect and what you suspect and what the OP suspects and what the next poster suspects may be different, but we do not have that obligation of determining if it ACTUALLY IS abuse/neglect. Our obligation is to report when WE *suspect* - is the obligation of DCS and/or law enforcement to investigate further and make those determinations.

In the OP's story, the LEO determined that it did not meet the standard in their jurisdiction. Fine, that is how it should work. There's the process.

Now, we can all agree the OP was a jerk by calling back the second time. And we can ponder about the OPs motives and think they are a horrible person.

However, I am concerned that if we promote publicly that individuals should be deciding whether there is evidence to meet legal definitions before reporting then we are doing a serious disservice to children. Report suspicions, do not investigate or judge yourself.

[Gormy Cuss]

159. No, I 'm not the one reading it too conservatively.

To be clear: I used "and" not to claim that both conditions must be true but rather that neither was. Inartful phrasing, granted.

It's become apparent to me though that you're reading into the statute language that isn't there. Suspicion must be based on something reasonable in order for the mandatory reporting law to be in effect.

Nothing in the reporting law requires Jane Citizen to prove the allegation. That's a red herring you've been tossing in. The law only requires reasonableness -- knowledge of some presumably observable physical or mental condition that suggests abuse or neglect.
The professionals are the ones who have to prove it.

What the law does not state is that Joe Citizen is obligated to report a hunch that there may be neglect. That appears to be in the area where one may choose to report or not. So yes, barring signs that the 5 year old has been injured in some way by being left alone for an hour, I don't see how that is a situation where reporting is mandatory under Tenn. law.

[d_r]

163. honestly, I am trying not

to read too much or too little in to that statute. First, because I am not a lawyer. Second, because I recognize that it is one state and does not apply to everyone in the US or even the world that might read this.

I've been saying "moral" obligation rather than "legal" for those sorts of reasons.

But we do read it differently. I read it that suspect abuse/neglect OR the list of possible outcomes.

I'm not trying to toss a "red herring" about proving the allegation. I am trying to say that an individual should not try to investigate themselves or try to wait until they feel there is a certain amount of evidence or try to deduce what someone else might think is a reasonable amount of evidence before reporting. That the obligation is to report a suspicion not to weigh or evaluate the suspicion. I'm sorry if I am not communicating that clearly.

[boston bean]

133. Could you please just STOP

this one little sentence from the OP may help you to understand that what you are talking about and what occurred here are not equivalent.

plus, she is just not a good mom. i try to get her to let the little one hang out with me, and she just wont let him.

It was personal for this OP. It wasn't about the childs well being or anything else. If the mother had let the child "hang" with him/her, the police and DCF would have never been called.

[d_r]

145. Again

I am not taking up for this OP.

I started this by saying "I'm going to say this differently than any of y'all."

I am not saying the OP isn't a jerk or busy body.

My concern is that it is too cavalier to be advocating for people to wait to report until they feel they have "proof" that meets a legal standard. That is not the citizen's responsibility. The obligation is to report suspicion and let the legal system that is in place do the investigation.

in this particular case, the LEO determined that there was no neglect.

The system worked the way it should.

[boston bean]

147. Then leave it alone. People here are discussing this in terms of this OP.

Not some made up scenario you've created to steer the conversation in a different direction.

[d_r]

150. I'm not making up a scenario

I do not think it is in the best interest of children to publicly encourage people not to report suspicion of child neglect. I do not think it is the best interest of children to publicly encourage people to search for nuance or weigh the situation rather than reporting a suspicion.

I have no intention in steering this conversation in any direction other than to comment that I think that is those comments are too cavalier.

I feel strongly about that principle and will not back down on it.

I'm happy to leave it alone in this thread if you want it be just about bashing the OP, fine, but quit posting back to me making me feel like I have to reply to you or be rude by ignoring your comments. I feel like I have to respond if you say something to me.

[boston bean]

151. What happened here, obviously happens and is NOT in the best interests of the child.

That does not mean that people disagree that it is in the best interest of children to report suspected abuse and neglect.

[mopinko]

478. as i have explained elsewhere, yes it is a personal thing.

we are very close, this is a small property, part of my family home and farm.
i looked for tenants that would fit into the center of my heart. they were happy to be invited.

so, my umpeenth offer to help her out, to watch the kid so she could take a nap, like everyone here seems to think a sick old lady is obligated to do, and she said no, and disappointed that little boy AGAIN, yes, i took it personally. FOR HIM.

[boston bean]

487. You don't call the cops and DCFS for personal reasons. nt

[cali]

123. bad idea

<snip>

Currently, 18 states require everyone to report child abuse. The other states require varying categories of people who come into contact with children in a professional capacity to do so. In New York, for example, the list of mandated reporters includes teachers, officials, doctors, social workers, and police officers.

But many child welfare experts say that expanding the pool of mandated reporters could end up harming children rather than helping them. For one thing, child welfare investigators may become overwhelmed with specious reports. The time spent on those cases could take away from time investigating real cases of abuse, they say.

"You'd have to employ an awful lot more case workers to deal with all these reports," said Theo Liebmann, who directs the Hofstra Child Advocacy Clinic. "You'd get some crazy stuff."

There is no statistical evidence that states with more expansive mandatory reporting laws protect children better than those with more restrictive definitions, experts say. In 1998, the lack of evidence about the effectiveness of mandatory reporting prompted the National Research Council to recommend not extending mandatory reporting laws to include cases of domestic violence.

<snip>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/01/us-usa-crime-reportinglaws-idUSTRE7B01NZ20111201

[d_r]

134. I disagree that it is a bad idea

the point of it is to err on the side of professionals doing investigations and being alerted to possible conditions that require investigations. Better to be alerted of 1,000 cases that need no intervention than not be alerted in 1 case that does.

[boston bean]

135. calling cops and DCFS based on personal grievances, is ALWAYS wrong and not in the childs

interest.

[Gormy Cuss]

137. It's also traumatic for the child

and therefore abusive.

[boston bean]

146. I agree 100%.

I know first hand how frightening it is having some stranger holding so much power of your little world and fearing they were going to take you away from your mother.

My mother was a single mom who worked two fucking jobs, killing herself, because my extremely abusive alcoholic biological father couldn't and wouldn't pay child support and could give two shit about us. My sister had some troubles at school, having nothing to do with my mother and they called those fuckers. We had a home, electricity, clothes, running water, heat and the UNCONDITIONAL LOVE of my mother.

SCARED the ever lovin shit out me. I felt like my little world was collapsing.

THANK GOD in my case, the reports were found to be unfounded and it was dropped. But still, this entire thread has taken me right back to that place. My heart is aching for the children, who even through this disgusting OP, shows they have a mother that cares about them and now they have this added stress that I can completely relate to. The stress on my already stressed mother was almost too much to bear to watch. Now, Because some fucking landlord who is miffed their mother won't let the little 5 year old "hang" with them, decided to pull this shit, they are probably having the same feelings as I did.

[d_r]

152. I'm sorry to hit that trigger for you

And I sincerely hope that I haven't or exacerbated it.

I am also the child of a single mother who worked two jobs.

[redqueen]

166. +1

[d_r]

142. Boston Bean

I've been saying that the point is to stay out the drama, not to be a part of it.

I'm talking about a suspicion not a grudge.

[pnwmom]

279. Mere suspicion isn't enough. We don't all need to be Gladys Kravitts.

I don't know whether or not Mopinko did the right thing in this particular situation, and I'm not accusing Mopinko of being Gladys.

But we don't need to all become G.K. And even she didn't call the authorities every time she got suspicious.

I think Mopinko should have talked directly to the mother about his or her concern that her children were being left alone, and I don't see an indication that Mopinko did that.

We once became aware of a situation involving neglect. The mother was an immigrant and in her country it wasn't illegal or unusual to leave a baby in a crib while you did a quick errand. When we realized it was happening, my husband spoke to her husband (who was American and should have known better) and that was that. I think a direct approach should always be made before going to the authorities, unless the person with suspicions is fearful that there will be retaliation of some sort.

[JI7]

323. there was nothing to even indicate why there would be suspicious of Abuse

because if there was that would be all the OP would have needed to tell .

but instead in the OP and throughout this thread there is NOTHING to show there was any reason to even suspect anything wrong going on .

[treestar]

344. +1 I mean how long are we to let her leave them alone

before we call the cops or social services?

If "the system" is that evil, why do we use it? It's like those people who assume the cops are all bad, all the time.

[mopinko]

374. till something happens apparently.

my daughter lives upstairs, btw.

[TransitJohn]

424. I'd rather help than call the pigs

Cops and courts never help anyone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

504. +10^6 n/t

[TeamPooka]

95. So you tried to help this working Mom by calling the cops on her. Why not cut her rent, landlord?

[Sunlei]

100. I hope she can afford to move away without you keeping her deposit.

Plenty of people day sleep while children are in the home.

[LittleBlue]

106. Can't even imagine what it's like to raise two small children alone

A shame that the father appears to be AWOL.

I hope someone can help her.

[redqueen]

111. Many others have said what I'd like to. So I'll just add that, as a working class single mom,

living in poverty and facing this struggle, and as someone who dealt with CPS and police visits while growing up, my heart goes out to that woman and her kids.

Having a CPS worker come visit is bad enough ... having the cops show up and grill your mom?

[Gormy Cuss]

114. No joke. n/t

[cali]

124. +1000

[Capt. Obvious]

122. For you

[CBGLuthier]

126. plus, she is just not a good mom. i try to get her to let the little one hang out with me, and she j

I do not know or care what sex you are but man or woman that is one of the creepiest fucking things I have ever read.

You actually called a woman a bad mother because her kid can not hang with you. I think YOU are the one who needs a visit from the authorities.

One of the joys of home ownership is not having to deal with busybody assholes.

[arcane1]

138. Some parents have an irrational dislike of leaving their kids alone with adults they don't know well

I know it sounds crazy, but it's true! I can understand the OP's confusion, since the mother's refusal is so unexpected.

[boston bean]

128. The minute I read this my blood pressure went through the roof.

I have a bad feeling about all of this and the kids living so close to this crazy landlord, who is upset their mother doesn't want them to "hang" with him/her.

I think someone ought to have called the authorities on YOU. The mother of the kids should do that. Creepy, landlord bullshit.

She ought to sue you.

[Codeine]

154. I don't always agree with boston bean,

but when I do, it's because bean is 100% righteous.

[boston bean]

343. glad to agree on this!

[Dorian Gray]

164. Absolutely

right on.

[joshcryer]

241. +1

Got an angina attack over this. Wish I was at my computer, I'd be all over this thread. Glad other DUers, especially single moms, are setting things straight.

[Generic Other]

136. Is this your idea of "It takes a village"?

Living in an apartment with a caring landlord like you certainly hasn't made their lives easier. How long have you known they had no hot water? What sort of "help" have you really tried to offer? Aside from calling the cops on her?

Did you really think that DUers would just sing your praises for doing such a lousy thing? You could easily have been there at 6 am to talk to her yourself rather than deciding to "narc" on her.

You maybe came off sounding a bit more George Zimmerman than you probably realize. That is why you are getting so many negative comments.

And now you won't respond to people who have asked repeatedly how old the other child was. School age, I am betting because you do not mention this child being left alone while the mother sleeps all day.

[Boom Sound 416]

143. You did the right thing. Nt

[Lex]

192. Not even close. nt

[kcr]

144. I hope this is fake because this is the most disturbing and shameful thing I've read today

I didn't think being a property owner meant calling cops on your tenants for no good reason. Maybe that's your problem.

[Brickbat]

161. I keep coming back to this and thinking, this must be some kind of epic trolling. Because WTF?

"Disturbing and shameful" is exactly right.

[AzDar]

148. My mother was in this situation with me as a child, 30 years ago. It's not ideal, but I cannot even

imagine how horrible and stressful and humiliating it would have been if someone called the cops on her for it.




Not sure at ALL what you were trying to accomplish...

[B2G]

155. Wake me if Mopinko ever shows back up

My guess is she's out tracking down food stamp fraud.

[Nevernose]

162. I would be legally obligated to call CPS

Not calling them would be a felony. Does it suck for everyone involved? Hell, yes, it sucks.

But leaving a five year old home alone? Insanity.

Hopefully this poor mother will get the resources she needs and the children will be returned ASAP.

[B2G]

168. He's not alone, he's with his brother

We are waiting for her to come back and let us know the brother's age.

After she reads this thread, I'm guessing she'll say '6 months old'. Lol.

[Nevernose]

177. If the brother was old enough to be watching him

CPS wouldn't have spent more than five minutes interviewing the kid.

[B2G]

179. And if he wasn't

they would have probably been taken on the spot.

[mopinko]

371. all night, every night. without even a phone.

[BainsBane]

425. How do you know they are alone every night?

You thought they were alone when you called the police, only it turned out the roommate is there. Doesn't the roommate sleep there? It sounds to me like it isn't all night, every night at all.

[mopinko]

497. no, she works the graveyard too. she is the one who came to me

and told me they were being left alone. and other things that are not criminal, certainly, but as she knows, not the best interests of the kids.
she moved in with her mostly to try to help with the kids. her help was mostly rejected, too.

she just happened to be off the night i could stay up late enough to make the call.
i am a sick old lady. that was not easy. it blew a whole day for me.

[kcr]

169. I hope you take greater care in making that decision than you did here

In choosing to side with the OP. As has been pointed out, we don't even know how old the other sibling is. And I seriously doubt the validity of her home alone claim.

[Nevernose]

183. I would have called CPS MUCH sooner

If I thought a child was being neglected, I would be moving heaven and earth the moment I thought anything was wrong.

If I was incorrect and the children weren't home alone, and everything is settled in a five minute interview. Better safe than sorry.

If I were right and the children was legitimately being neglected, then temporary custody would be the best thing until the mom could get on her feet and get responsible.

Like you, I'm skeptical, but I like to pretend that personal DU stories are the truth. It just makes it easier to function.

[uppityperson]

184. "temporary custody"? Therein lies the issue. AND you missed the 5 yr old was NOT alone.

[kcr]

189. If a child is being neglected, of course

You honestly think this busybody OP (She cooks with a microwave!) had a legit reason?

[BainsBane]

248. "Could get on her feet and get responsible"

How can you say that? You have to see it's an economic issue. Her wages are low and childcare is expensive.

[panader0]

332. I know people who have called CPS on someone just to get them in trouble.

No child abuse was occurring, but playing the CPS card puts the parent(s) in a hugely bad situation, and can lead to losing your kids, having to meet them at a park, supervised, twice a month for a year, jumping through legal hoops to get them back.
CPS is not always a good thing.

[2pooped2pop]

535. yes, I call this trailer trash revenge

or trailer trash legal system.

[moriah]

397. Mandated reporter?

A 10-year-old child is, in my opinion, too young to care for a younger sibling overnight.

[Nevernose]

415. I'm a teacher, a CASA, a foster parent and

I used to work as a juvenile probation officer. My wife is a family law attorney.

I'm a mandated reporter from multiple angles, and have spent decades in and around "the system." It's flawed, but it's there for children when they need it.

Leaving a ten year old and a five year old home alone on a regular basis -- not just a walk around the block or the neighbor's house for coffee -- is neglect, plain and simple.

[ZombieHorde]

165. Please leave the family alone.

You're being creepy and your creepiness is harming them.

[Blue_In_AK]

170. This is a difficult situation, but I have to say

that when my daughter was maybe 7-8, somewhere around there, she would let herself in the house, alone, when she got home from school around 3:45 and be here by herself until I got home from work at 5:15. She would call me when she got here and then do her homework and practice the piano, and she was always fine. She knew which neighbors to go to if she had an issue. She knew not to answer the door. I would have been madder than a hornet if a nosy neighbor had turned me in.

I realize there are differences in children's maturity, and some may not have been able to handle this responsibility at such a young age, but for us it worked.

The OP did not say how old the other child is.

[NCTraveler]

172. Arrested for stalking? nt.

[Rhinodawg]

175. Why not help her out rather call the cops?

Skip a month of rent.

Help find some help for her.

Contact social services.

Don't destroy a family.

[liberalmuse]

181. That was my mom.

She worked 3 jobs with a bad back to help her 3 kids survive. She left us alone at night and for a good part of the day. I would rather be a latch key kid then be part of the broken "child welfare" system. I knew a lot of foster kids. Most of them were molested and treated poorly. I guess it's easy to be on the other end of things, watching and reporting what you think you see, but you really don't have any idea what this family is going through, and you aren't helping. As a mom, I would never let my kids "hang out" with some neighbor. Perhaps there are other more subtle ways to help without making this family's life even harder?

[tenderfoot]

182. Your tenant sounds like the woman that recently died in jail over debts.

Pretty disturbing that you'd go out of you way to make her life more difficult than it already is. Actually, it's downright appalling.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

185. your problem is you are far too involved and way to close to a situation that you cannot control.

My guess is the single working mom with two children is what you saw to begin with as a good situation for you. The pitter patter of little feet so to speak suits you. But the reality of a struggling single mom doesn't meet your standards of raising children.

Your income property is about profit and long term investment.And thats the void it should be filling. But you seem to want more out it. As a landlord you are in effect reporting child neglect and abuse. And it seems in one hand you hold flowers and the the other the gun-it's my way or the highway. But of course you would never evict the kids and in your particular the five year old. And of course to get her out of your rental unit the process is lengthy,isn't it ?

Does it occur to you that because she is a working mother she may be making too much money even though it is actually too little money to meet her living expenses . So she is living in poverty but she isn't impoverished enough to be captured in the safety net.And since business is conducted during working hours of the day and she works at night and sleeps during the day,and must be perfectly alert in working hours in the night shift or risk losing her job, it seems there is little to no time during day time working hours for her to fallow through with financial assistance appointments.

So ask yourself this, what happens if she loses her job and is that not a valid fear ?
On top of all else a landlord that is adding to the pressure. Flowers in one hand offering help and the gun in the other, it's my way or the highway.

Your tennant has the right of privacy and you are too close to her problems all of which may just be a temporary set back.

You might not believe this, but you are the one on a slippery slope.

You need to step back and look at what you are doing.

Here is the big question, is your tennant behind in rent ?
Most likely not right ?

Because that would give you more power over her ,right ?

I have managed and maintained apartment building over the years as a professional, and you in my opinion are far too involved and at the same time looking to pass the buck or the problem as you see it onto the authorities because of everything that is wrong in your eyes.

Is it possible your tennant is struggling to keep herself and her children out of the system of public assistance ,being a text book working struggling single mother ?

And do you live in the same building,house,duplex whatever it may be ?

So your tennant needs a live in to help with the children and utilities so fourth. And is at a lose now finding somebody who is reliable.

And she doesn't keep a free loading bum of a male friend about the place .
Man oh man it seems you really have it all confused.

Did you even bother to ask a cop for an opinion with all their experience with domestic issues?
Is it possible they actually saw a struggling working single mother who fell into hard times ?And could you adding to the problems ?

Here is what it looks like, not saying that is what it is. if they do take away her children, she wouldn't need to live there anymore ,would she ?

Than you could clean it up and rent to somebody else.

Let's not pretend, the eviction process where children are involved is quite a lengthy process, isn't it ?

Just say'en, it looks like you are really concerned for your own interests.
Not saying that is the case.
But it does look that way.

[BuelahWitch]

190. +1!

[gollygee]

188. So the 5-year-old is "the little one" - how old is the older one?

The 5-year-old isn't left home alone. Poor parents often can't afford to work and pay child care. If the child was safe with the older kid, you made things tons worse. They're better off with a parent who loves them and is not beating them up than in foster care.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

197. it has been asked and ignored by mopinko... n/t

[coyote]

191. Hey look at me, the great concerned person I am...

I called the police today, potentially destroying 2 children's lives forever.


Are you out of your fucking mind?

[mopinko]

194. my my my. ok, i did not hit and run, i had to get some sleep.

jeeeebus people. are you ever running away with yourselves.
srsly. i ended up getting about 3 hours of sleep.

i will respond to some of you individually, but here is a little more 411.

people who are seeing something creepy in my comments about him "hanging w me"
get a fucking grip.

i am a 60 yo woman with 5 kids and no grandkids. half the kids on the block visit my farm and my chickens and dogs and little farm.
the kid is welcome out there, on the lawn, or talking to me. he calls me grandma.
i didnt "want "the kid to hang with me. he would have actually been quite a distraction.
but i was offering to help, as i had many times.
i wasnt mad for myself. i was mad that she wouldnt take the help.

if you are seeing something creepy here, that is about your suspicious filter, not my actions.

[BainsBane]

195. How does not taking your help amount to being a bad mother?

As you alleged? So much so you would call the police twice?

[uppityperson]

196. How old is the other kid there?

[mopinko]

200. they are 5 & 10

[uppityperson]

204. So the 5 year old is home with the 10 yr old while the mom sleeps?

What with schools being closed for the summer, the 10 yr old and 5 yr old are home while the mom sleeps? And that is....bad? Because the curtains are closed?

[Rex]

227. Yeah, something here don't pass the smell test imo.

The blinds are closed and the little one is watching pbs? THAT is a bad thing? The whole thing stinks. I would LOVE to hear the mom's side of the story.

[LeftyMom]

354. I'd like to know how she knows what's on the TV if the blinds are closed.

Is she creeping about listening? Has she put in cameras or something? This is increasingly concerning, and not because the poor mom could use a better sitter.

[mopinko]

242. no, they are alone all night.

then a bright curious little boy who ought to be in preschool sits in the dark and watched public tv. she wont even let me lend him books.

and it has been very cold.

[uppityperson]

244. You are upset that a mom won't send her child to preschool? or borrow your books?

You are not the parent. Yes, it can be frustrating to watch other parents do things like that, but he is not your kid.

[BainsBane]

211. I babysat for the neighbor kids when I was 10

One of whom was special needs, with Downs Syndrome. No one dreamed of calling the cops.

[cali]

198. the more I think about the op, the more disturbed I am by it

there's something off about your tone, to start with. "narced"? that terminology is disturbing. instead of being glad the roommate was home for the boys, you're irritated because YOU want this woman to get in trouble. And if you're so concerned why didn't you forgive her rent for a month or so so she could get her gas turned on? Or why didn't you pay for the gas? And why the fuck should she let her young child hang out with an adult she barely knows?

[Brickbat]

209. .

"narced"? that terminology is disturbing. instead of being glad the roommate was home for the boys, you're irritated because YOU want this woman to get in trouble.

Exactly. Well said.

[Rex]

217. I'm having a hard time believing the veracity of the OP.

One sided stories make it hard to know what is true and what is not true. I agree, something seems off. I don't know a lot of landlords, but I doubt they would use the word narc.

[panader0]

336. That was the first thing I saw--"narced"

Where I come from you don't narc, ever.

[mopinko]

199. now I HAVE TRIED TO HELP THIS WOMAN. REPEATEDLY.

in a whole bunch of ways.
including letting her know that i would be keeping a close eye on things at this place.

it is a 2flat, part of my farm. my youngest daughter lives upstairs.
it might be better in some ways for her to live in a shitty joint where no one cares what she does. but i told her from the get go.

when she started having trouble with her roommate, who is equally appalled by the situation, i started worrying. she kept saying she was scared the roommate was going to call cps. i had to wonder.

i stated that she should not have to work that hard. that is what i told the alderman's office. they tried to help her, too. i pulled my strings for her. they would have fixed her up, she just didnt get it done.

i also have yet to see this months rent.

i have no intention of evicting her, but i have the case. this is family housing, 4 br, remodeled to fit sec8 guidelines by the previous owner.
i take that as part of my responsibility.
of course my first step is not too call the cops.
like i said i have tried, several times, to give her a break and watch the boy for a while, but she would rather have him in a cold (no gas) apartment, with the shades down, this nothing to do but watch pbs. hell, i offered to let him borrow books and she wont let him.

i have told her that if not for the boys i would toss her ass.

also, i knew full well that they were not going to take her kids.
the system here is overwhelmed, dealing with the real monsters.
like i said, she is not a bad person. i agree that she is overwhelmed.

this is the sort of case that gets a caseworker who either calls and tells her to cut it out, or helps her sort things out, and hooks her up with some help.
there is help she could be accessing, but she cant get it together.

THERE WAS EXACTLY ZERO CHANCE THESE KIDS WOULD BE TAKEN.
ZERO
ZERO
ZERO
ZERO
ZERO

so please stop that.

[cali]

205. ANSWER THE QUESTION: How old is the older boy?

and no, you don't know that there is "zero chance these kids would be taken". YOU can't know that.

[uppityperson]

210. 5 and 10 and indeed, there was not "zero chance".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5094283

[cali]

215. thanks.

[mopinko]

463. no, i am telling you. i checked it out before hand, and confirmed it with the cops.

there was ZERO CHANCE.

and i will point to the reality of what did happen. i dont think they even filed charges, tho they did notify cps. they just called her up, told her to get home (at the end of her shift, i might add) and balled her out.
really, i know my cops here. i do. we have community policing. i call on things fairly often as i am around all day, and i know them. they are trained well for this here. they did a great job.
it was a judgement call, and i call the judges.

[Rhinodawg]

212. OK...Did the cops investigate?...is there a case worker ?

[BainsBane]

218. It's June

The apartment can hardly be cold. The gas company isn't allowed to shut down service when it's too cold, which is why they waited until March. You are angry because she didn't accept YOUR offer of help. So what? Maybe she is uncomfortable with you? As others observed, it turned out she had good reason not to trust you. It sounds like this is about your ego more than the well-being of the children.

If there was no chance the kids would be taken, why notify authorities? When have the cops ever helped anyone? And then, when the cops weren't sufficiently harsh on her, you waited until the roommate left and called again? That doesn't sound to me like you wanted to do anything but get her in trouble.

[cali]

220. and why use the extreme measure of calling the cops?

most people call Child Protective Services if they suspect neglect.

[mopinko]

240. it was cold. it has been cold here.

not freezing, but there were quite a few days that were colder than legal.

and people are completely wrong with that crap. the boy loves me, and the mom has never done anything but laugh and smile about how he feels.

[Rex]

256. You seem to be contradicting yourself now, either she doesn't allow her son to be around

you (like you said)...or the boy loves you and so does the mom (like you said). Which is it then? Can't be both.

You SHOULD edit your OP...get rid of the word narc, maybe you do not know this...but you started down the road of adversarial replies with a LOT of posters by your choice of wording.

[Sissyk]

258. Please tell us then exactly what

the mother did that you consider her an unfit mother. You had to consider her that way in order to call the cops and hope CPS visits her.

So, what did she do?

[uppityperson]

263. As landlord, what is your obligation to make sure they had heat?

[gollygee]

266. It seems like you're mainly upset

that the mom didn't let you get more involved with this family. The kid wasn't unsafe. There is no law that a child be in preschool or not watch much TV.

[JI7]

300. how do you know the boy loves you if she doesn't let him around you ?

[etherealtruth]

238. I am "going with" your intentions were good and that you genuinely care

.... but, there is never ZERO chance of the authorities removing a child from the home .... there is always a good chance this will happen (and not necessarily when and where you think it will)

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

245. well you put a little light on the subject,

Ages 5 and 10. So the mother must feel confident the 10 year old is old enough to handle the younger child for an hour or two. sub tennant issues with the mother seem to indicate something.

And your daughter in the upper unit, I should think to wonder what your daughters views are on the subject line.
4 bdr unit , cleared for sec.8 ,ok so puts a different light on the subject.

Still no mention of drugs or alcohol abuse or stranger male friends wondering in and out of the picture.

Seems to me the extra bed room is the key asset to the to unit in the eyes of the tennant although the is not capable of securing a good working relationship with who ever it is your tennant thinks may fit in to it.

The way it looks is your tennant was over her head to begin with for the go on the financials regarding her living arrangement.

You also did not mention anything about child support coming in.

Tennant ,landlord laws come to mind.
My guess is you did not do much of a back round check which to me seems evident by your vauge discription of the situation at hand. You must know or have known then extra bed room was eyed for occupency by your tennant as a space for rent with reduction of rent in exchange fer services,ie: tending to the children.

Somehow I think there is far more to it than meets your eye.

In so far as your rent for this mo., you might need to do a sit down with your tennant to try to find out what if anything you can do to help relieve some of her pressures.

And of course to ask when can you pay the rent.

It may be there is far more going on than you know .
So, find out what you can .

If she doesn't want help from of the system, there must be a reason. And should you have done a backround check, you might just know that reason or reasons.

You also made no mention of an x out there somewheres.
Ok done, I'm late fpr an appointment.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

251. i am sure that people thought there would be ZERO ZERO ZERO ZERO

chance that their mentally ill son would not be shot and killed by the cops when they called...

you have NO IDEA what could happen when you involve the police... hell, they might have even arrested YOU!

sP

[laundry_queen]

268. She is not obligated to accept your help in order to be a 'good mother'

Let me say that again: She is not obligated to accept your help

It seems like you are positively insulted that she just won't accept your 'help'. And I put 'help' in scare quotes because it sounds like the only help you have offered is to watch her kid. What else have you done? How is letting her know you would keep a close eye on the place 'helping'?

Also, I was a 'latchkey' kid and I loved it, starting at age 8. I was babysitting my 6 year old brother afterschool by age 10. We both preferred it to a babysitter's house. I can't even imagine if someone would've called the cops on my parents.

Having a nap while your child plays quietly is not neglectful (every mom I know should have their kids taken away then. My parents napped every Saturday afternoon when I was really little - like 3 or 4 till I was a teen). Cooking with a microwave does not make her neglectful or a bad mom. Sounds like you are grasping at straws here to try to build your case for calling the cops.

Maybe...just maybe...she gets a 'bad vibe' from you. After you calling the cops, she wouldn't even be wrong about that.

Even if you mean well, you are causing far more harm here than good, IMO.

If you REALLY want to help her, you will pay her utility bill or waive her rent for a month. Or you will search out agencies to help her and send them her way without letting her know that it was you. Anything less than that is meddling, plain and simple.

[uppityperson]

276. +++++++++++++++

[2pooped2pop]

275. I have yet to see this months rent.

Looks like what I call the trailer trash legal system. Hey if you had told her she did drugs they would have brought a drug enforcement agent with them and searched her house and drug tested her. Why not go full out?

[LeftyMom]

295. She's trying to keep him away from you because you creep her out. She needs the rent money to move,

which undoubtedly she's trying very had to do ASAP. If she's smart she's filing for a TRO and talking to legal aid today.

You need to mind your own business. You're not good with kids- you're always posting on DU about what a hot crazy mess yours are. Even if you were, her kids are not your problem. Her gas is your problem. Fix that. You're a landlord, not a social worker.

[RetroLounge]

206. " i try to get her to let the little one hang out with me, and she just wont let him. "

This alone shows me the Mom has good judgement.

RL

[mopinko]

247. really absurd, man, really absurd.

come on. wtf.
she calls me mother, and the boy calls me grandma.

and really, people are not straight here on the situation. gonna edit the op, but jeebus.
i thought we were friends. wtf.

[2pooped2pop]

262. I bet she does call you mother

or something similar.

[B2G]

284. She calls you 'mother', yet won't let you watch her child?

Man, this thread just gets weirder by the minute.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

228. When I volunteered with street kids, many of them were "veterans" of foster care

I'm sure there are some wonderful foster parents out there, but some of the street kids said that if they had children who were going to be taken from them, they'd kill the children rather than let them go into foster care. That's how bad some of their experiences were.

Mopinko, you are the landlord. You have the CHOICE of being helpful by giving them a break on the rent and utilities. Maybe she ought to report YOU for renting an apartment that has no hot water or cooking gas.

Being a home health aid is hard work. This woman is TRYING her best and is probably exhausted by the time she gets home.

[mopinko]

373. no, i dont have a choice.

i am retired, and this building is my income. why would you assume i should and could do that for someone.

i know she is trying. hopefully now she will get some better advice.

[BainsBane]

426. There is nothing wrong with your expecting rent from her or any tenant.

It's everything else that's messed up.

[Skeeter Barnes]

246. I hope they will be able to get away from you very soon.

[pintobean]

264. This pile-on is extremely ugly

and really makes DU suck.

[uppityperson]

273. A lot of people strongly disagree and that makes Du suck?

[Rex]

278. Standard reply from that one, like grass is green etc..

At least THAT is out of the way now...we suck, DU sucks cuz we noticed something is not right about the OP.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[pintobean]

299. I have no problem with the disagreement.

There are a lot of personal attacks in this thread. I see you disagreeing without resorting to attacks. I wish everyone could do that.

[CreekDog]

331. Yeah! Why are people uncivil to the lady that called the cops on a poor, single mom?

Why are people uncivil to the lady that called the cops and made a false accusation against a poor, hard working, single mom?

Why are people so uncivil to the lady that thinks that the mom she called the cops on is a bad parent because she won't let her 5 year old hang out with their landlady?

the OP is being treated with more civility than she treated that family.

and pointing that out is fair game.

[Rex]

274. You should probably read the OP, before giving your standard reply. nt.

nt.

[CreekDog]

277. on the wrong side as usual

[Cal Carpenter]

303. It's not a pile on. The OP asked for this by posting this thread

particularly given the wording in the subject line.

I actually find threads like this somewhat refreshing -- DUers who clash over lots of things coming together and agreeing on something! It is lovely!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

311. if you do something douchey and then post on DU, people will call you out on it

that is hardly the reason du sucks

[Autumn]

450. It's not a pile on. When you read the OP and then

read some of the questions and the changing story by the poster it's understandable.

[JI7]

287. you seem resentful that she wont allow her kids to hang out with you

there is nothing you told to show she should have had the cops called on her or even that she is a bad mother. in fact from everything i read it seems like she is a good mother doing all she can to help her kids.

[BainsBane]

291. and that the kids don't go to the school she thinks they should

that the little one isn't in preschool, that she didn't take advantage of the OP's connections with an alderman, that the mother cooks in a microwave, that the mother sleeps after work . . . . none of which constitute anything close to neglect.

[boston bean]

293. OP says she is a month behind in the rent.

Seems this may be a way to get them out, without evicting.

[JI7]

305. i saw that and it seems like that may be a big part of it

if she really cared and wanted to help she would do something to make rental payments easier for her.

maybe she feels like she has a right to control her life because she hasn't paid rent.

the rental payments are what most of the money the mother earns is going towards. maybe if she cut down rent the mother could get a lower paying job that would allow her to work while kids went to school and be home when they were home. and not worry about needing a roommate too much.

[mopinko]

312. the mother leaves them alone all night at least 3-4 nights.

she didnt pay her gas bill and has no heat.

and i'm not resentful, just sad for the boy. he begs me to visit every time he sees me.
he would have been fine in the garden with me.
so, yeah, damned if i do, damned if i dont.
i made many offers of help large and small.

[CreekDog]

320. you seem to be coming to the conclusion that she is poor

how observant of you.

next time how about not calling the cops on someone for being poor.

[JI7]

326. so why don't you help by paying her Gas Bill ?

[BainsBane]

350. Not damned if you do, damned if you don't

You offered assistance. She declined. That should have been the end of your involvement. Instead, you twice called the police on her and posted it on DU expecting people would applaud your actions. Then you proceed to defend yourself by making all kinds of judgments about the woman's parenting that have nothing to do with neglect. Preschool or no-preschool, staying indoors, TV, sleeping, not wanting you near her child, which school the kids go to--none of that is any of your business and is certainly no justification for calling the police.

[snooper2]

390. In the garden with you at night time when she is working?

[BainsBane]

422. She thinks the kid should be with her

when the mother is home sleeping. First she said the kid should be in preschool. Then it turns out the kid is in preschool for a couple of hours a day. She's upset the mother isn't handing over that 5 yr old to her, while she has zero interest in the ten year old.

[JI7]

427. if you look up thread in one of the first replies

she did say the 5 year old was the reason rented out to the mother. i'm thinking based on the finances the mother probably would have been turned down but she thought it would work out because she could "help" the mother by watching the kid .

[LeftyMom]

288. The older child is ten?!? That's old enough to watch a sibling. Mind your own business.

Last edited Fri Jun 13, 2014, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Put the gas in your name and fold it into the rent. For safety reasons it's your responsibility to make sure it's on, and you'd be up a creek if a pipe froze in a cold snap because the unit doesn't have heat, or improvised cooking started a fire because they can't use the stove. That's literally the only part of this situation that has anything to do with you.

You're a landlord. You're not a social worker. If you want to be a social worker you need to go back to school for that.

Your concerns are: the quiet enjoyment of the neighbors if it's a multi-unit dwelling, safety, the upkeep of the property.

Your concerns are not: anything that goes on in the rented unit that isn't making excessive noise or breaking things.

[treestar]

347. Depends on state law

In my state it is 12.

[LeftyMom]

352. That's not a legal minimum, it's the age under which DCFS will even take a complaint.

http://kids.delaware.gov/faqs.shtml

Q. At what age can I leave my child home alone?
A. While there is no law in Delaware regulating an appropriate age for a child to be left home alone, the Division of Family Services will accept for investigation any report of a child under the age of 12 being left alone. DFS will also accept reports for children age 12 and over if there are any extenuating circumstances (e.g. developmental delays, physical disabilities).

It is best for parents and guardians to take in consideration their child"s comfort level, abilities and overall behavior and to talk to them about potential dangers (fire safety, what to do if someone comes to the door, etc.) before making the decision to leave a child home alone.

IL doesn't have a hard rule, and a neglect case has to consider many factors including time of day, whether the child has special medical or cognitive concerns, whether the child has access to an emergency number or neighbor, and most critically to this situation

whether any of the conduct is attributable to economic hardship or illness and the parent, guardian or other person having physical custody or control of the child made a good faith effort to provide for the health and safety of the minor

The mother doesn't appear to be legally in the wrong here. Which is consistent with the behavior of the police who came out to her home. I'm willing to bet they noted in the file that Mo is an unreliable reporter and will respond to further calls appropriately.

[Kaleva]

356. In South Carolina, 12 and under cannot be left alone overnight.

Last edited Fri Jun 13, 2014, 10:04 PM - Edit history (1)

My home state of Michigan has no hard and fast rules concerning minimum age.

Edited because I had originally said that it was Maryland where 12 and under cannot be left alone overnight. I was mistaken as it is South Carolina where that is the law.

[treestar]

483. OK thanks for that

I could not find it in the criminal statutes, but knew I had heard that.

I got babysitting jobs at 12. That seems to be considered the age at which you can look after younger kids.

That also is reassuring that the kids won't immediately be put into child care. If they talked to the 10 year old and it wasn't for long, etc., it's not such dire consequences as has been predicted.

I think I might have called too if a 10 and 5 year old were home alone. The cops will check it out and it's up to DCFS whether to intervene. And their intervention is not to immediately put the children into an abusive foster care home (there are people acting as if that is always the case with a foster home).

[JI7]

306. how much is her Rent ?

[mopinko]

384. cheap for the space and

irrelevant. and a jerk question.

[pnwmom]

307. You showed in your OP that you're not a good judge of whether the children are alone or not.

You called the police because you THOUGHT that the roommate wasn't home. But you were wrong. So you could also be wrong that the roommate is usually not there.

During the day when the mother is sleeping, the 5 year old is with a 10 year old sibling. I suspect you left that out of the OP because most people wouldn't be too concerned about that. A 10 year old is old enough to be with the 5 year old, with the mother right there for an emergency.

Not every family that's having trouble making it financially can live according to middle class norms. In fact, most of them probably can't.

What steps did you take to talk to the mother about your concerns about her children being left alone before you called the police about it? Did you warn her that that was your intention?

[steve2470]

319. In Florida, it used to be that things had to be really horrible for kids to be removed

These days, I'm not sure how "trigger happy" they are. On the other hand, there have been several high profile cases where DCF screwed up, dropped the ball, and a child died. I could see a scenario where a nervous investigator and/or supervisor pulls the trigger and takes kids away that should not be taken.

Just more food for thought.

[Kaleva]

325. Here where I live, an 8 year old girl found her mom od'd on the floor

The mother survived as she was transported to the hospital in time. The girl was removed from the home by DHS and placed in the care of an aunt and uncle who have children of their own about the same age.

This is the only instance where I know DHS was called in and the child was removed from the home. I know of several other situations where DHS was called in where the parents openly used drugs, the house was filthy, the kids went to school with dirty clothes and/or there was little to eat in the home but junk food. The children weren't taken away in those cases.

[steve2470]

328. That is in line with my experience

Even when abuse and/or neglect is strongly suspected, unless it got to the extremely obvious stage, kids were left in the home. In a few high profile cases, kids were killed. It's damned if they do and damned if they don't. When a child dies, everyone wants a head on a silver platter. Otherwise, their work goes unheralded and unappreciated.

[treestar]

348. Agree, there is too much assumption that Child Protective Services

is completely useless and will automatically put the children permanently in an abusive foster home.

No, they might just lead her to resources for low cost day care. Family or friends could take the children during the night if she works nights.

[steve2470]

349. CPS can do a lot of good if people work with them

Of course, many times people are very angry and hurt that the cops/CPS got called. It's definitely one of the last ditch measures. As I said earlier and which Kaleva verified, removal of kids is usually not done unless it's very clear their residence is an immediate threat to their well-being.

[treestar]

490. Yes, maybe they can help the mother find options

that she is comfortable with.

[CreekDog]

324. You have a lot more confidence in your observations than is warranted

first, you actually posted this crap expecting to be seen as the victim and that people would take your side.

second, you actually called the cops and turned out to be absolutely wrong.

third, you seem clueless about why your tenant might not want her child spending time with the landlady (though the landlady doesn't seem to be interested in having the ten year old around...)

and you are utterly clueless about how you sound to most people and utterly at a loss to find anything in your actions to question or perhaps learn from.

your observational skills are terrible, your judgment is lacking and while none of us is perfect, what you've done is decided that despite all this, everybody else is wrong, you aren't changing.

you're self righteously wrong. and there's no prospect that you won't go doing stupid stuff like this all over again.

you have probably 50 people saying you're wrong, most in this thread explaining various problems with what you did, some pretty strident (but so were you), some very restrained and detailed explanations and reasoning.

but for you? screw all that. NOBODY who tells you that you did anything wrong can be even 1% right, you've discounted them all.

so what you'll do is keep effing up like you did to this poor family.

i understand that not everybody here is right. but that applies to you too.

your confidence far exceeds the reality of the situation.

[LexVegas]

330. Are you interested in taking custody of one or both kids?

[JI7]

337. seems like it's just the 5 year old she wants to hang out with

[elehhhhna]

339. Tough call, mo

but the part about not leaving the kid to hang with you? I know it probably hurts your feels but I doubt I'd let my kids hang with a man either. It's not personal. I'm with her on that one.

[840high]

377. what man? Mo is a a woman.

[Jamastiene]

340. I'm glad you weren't my landlord

and that I own my own home now. Sometimes, a person can be extremely nosy, too nosy, really. I would resent that if it was me on the receiving end especially if I didn't do anything to bring down that kind of action on me.

Maybe you should step back and concentrate on fixing the water and heating issues for her. If that person is renting from you, you should keep the place in working order for them, shouldn't you? Other than that, give the woman a break. It's good you care about the kids and all, but it really does sound like you are making it personal and getting all up in her business a little too much.

[GeorgeGist]

353. Less pinko.

Just a suggestion.

[bettyellen]

387. Well said!

[Puzzledtraveller]

357. whu?

[U4ikLefty]

364. Is this a Free Republic joke?

It seems too laughable to be real.

I hope nobody is REALLY such a douchebag.

[ecstatic]

366. I'm not sure how quickly boys mature but

I was a latch key kid well before the age of 10. I know that young boys and girls mature differently, but 10 seems to be old enough. I was in middle school at that age. I'm glad nobody called the cops on my parents because the sacrifices we all made back then were worth it.

The issue is not a police matter, IMO. I agree that the boys should have the opportunity to get out the house more. She obviously doesn't have a support system of friends or relatives who can take the boys from time to time. That leaves the mom, but she's tired and probably has trust issues along with a little social anxiety and/or depression (understandable). Despite that, you can tell that she loves and wants to protect her sons, that's why she doesn't just let them run wild or hang out with any and everyone. Unfortunately, your actions have probably reduced the trust to 0, which is sad because at some point she probably would have started to allow the boys hang out with you.

[mopinko]

388. the 10yo, i would be fine.

and yeah, trust. but she learned to trust something else- that when i tell her i aint messin, i aint messin. hopefully, that and the cops on her porch will get her attention.

there is help out there for her. cops here are well trained.

[pnwmom]

408. But at night the 10 year old was there with the younger boy.

It's not optimal. But why didn't you just give them your phone number and offer to help if they ever had a problem?

[Humanist_Activist]

412. When I was 10, I watched my 4 year old sister all the time...

especially after school or during the summer when both parents were working, I was considered old enough. I didn't enjoy it, but generally you make sure she's fed, play with her till she's tired, then play video games when she lays down for a nap.

I even, *gasp* had to watch her overnight when my parents went out for their anniversary and birthdays for special "date nights". They wouldn't come back until either early in the morning or early afternoon the next day.

[JI7]

413. i can't believe how you can be so clueless , are you even reading the responses ?

there was no reason to call the cops on her. YOU are the one who is in the wrong here.

[Whoa_Nelly]

385. This is by far the creepiest and wrong post I have seen in a long time

Those children need to stay with their mother who is probably struggling to do the right thing as by as much as she can, and you want to throw these kids to the hell that is the foster care system?

Also, depending on the state, but most states use the rule that if there is someone 10 years or older in the home, they are considered capable of caring for those younger than them who reside in the home.

Who the hell made you the person in charge of this family? And, instead of trying to break them up, why are you not finding a way to help them, if you think they need assistance?

And, the person who said that the mother is obviously irresponsible (that would be CaliforniaPeggy who said that right at the start), obviously has no heart about the family, the kids, and absolutely no grasp of what it's like to be a single mom doing the most she can.
Live in absolute need and struggle, and then speak to what this single mom is doing to raise her family. Unless you have seen it, experienced, you know nothing about living on the edge of being homeless with kids.

Also, mopinko, you really need to learn how to write.

[Ptah]

414. +1

[TDale313]

392. Please, do everyone a favor and back off.

Denying you as much access as you'd like to her child does not make her a bad mom. That's totally her right. Neither does sleeping after working all night. I know you think you're helping, but IMO you're probably making a tough situation worse.

[Humanist_Activist]

409. What is your goal here? To make the mother unemployed? At least then she will be around her...

kids, but, unless paying you rent is optional, they will end up homeless, then the kids will be put in state custody.

You calling the cops was out of line, and I doubt they appreciate that their time is being wasted, this is harrassment at this point, I hope this tenant of yours goes to legal aid and tell them what's going on, perhaps, at the end of it, you will hopefully no longer be a property owner.

[mopinko]

441. first of all, this 2 flat is the mainstay of my retirement

and my own kid lives up stairs.
if something even happened.....
so, it is my business, this was explained when they moved in.
and honestly, i welcomed them as members of the family, and they were happy to hear that.

the kids have been told, repeatedly, that if they ever need anything i am right there. i hope they would be able to take advantage of that, but knowing these kids, they would never get out of a fire alone.
but they have no phone in the house.


i have some legal liability here, if anything ever happened. not that this had anything to do with what i did, but it is the truth.

and really, i think i said pretty clearly in the op that i tried to get some help for her. i also got a bawling out from the alderman for not having prevented this in my lease. and for putting up with a lot of other shit that has gone on. landlords in chicago, actually, legally, have a LOT of responsibility for illegal behavior on their properties.
obviously a year long story doesnt make it into an op.

[betsuni]

411. The Landlord

This is like looking at a poorly done cubist portrait. A nose is over there, is that an arm, where is the other eye. This story is all over the place. The kid goes to school, then he doesn't, then he goes in the morning. The police came and "bawled her out but left the kids. I have no desire to see her lose her kids." "She is short, but she also makes dumb decisions." Appointments are hard. My brain is coming apart. This short story does not end well. Final sentence: "From the locked closet door came a faint scratching and a tiny voice pleading, "Grandma ... please, Grandma, I promise I want to hang out with you in the garden, I'll be good ... I won't watch public television ever again, I swear ... Grandma?"

[bravenak]

520. +1

It's all over the place.

[Jamastiene]

530. It sounds like something out of a horror movie.

The kind of horror movie that scares even old pros at watching horror movies. It would make for an excellent blockbuster horror movie, but in real life, it is damned creepy.

[TransitJohn]

423. Wow, that's pretty fucked up behavior

I can't believe you'd do that to someone.

[JI7]

429. Dear OP, if you wanted to help why didn't you pay for her Gas Bill ?

why didn't you provide a phone with with prepaid minutes for emergency ?

[LeftyMom]

430. Again, I want to know how you know what goes on in that house when the shades are drawn?

Listening at the windows? Cameras? Peepholes?

How the hell do you know what's on their television?

[LAGC]

436. There's few things in life I detest more than a nosy landlord.

This OP has been very revealing, and not in the way the author intended.

[Hekate]

431. Mopinko, I'm so sorry for you getting all this judgmental flack

The situation you describe is unsafe for the kids. You finally did something about it. People at DU are entirely too ready to pile on without reading the whole post or considering what it's like to live next to a situation like that.

When I was 10 y.o. I had 3 younger siblings, and the folks would leave me in charge so they could go grocery shopping without all of us in tow. I was highly responsible for my age, but it was suboptimal. The brother closest in age to me would get in my face (this got much worse as the years went on) and my 4 y.o. sister had a full-on screaming tantrum as soon as the car left the driveway. Every time. Did I tell? Not on your life.

I was 12 when I was deemed old enough to do real babysitting, and was the go-to girl for that job in the neighborhood from then on. The summer I was 12 a woman hired me to watch her 2 kids for 40 hours a week while she worked. >smh< But 10? Not really.

>sigh< As an adult living in apartments I encountered way too many stray children and children whose caretakers or moms would scream or use demeaning language. When my kids were babies there was a 5 y.o. whose mama would shut her out of her apartment when mama's gentleman caller was there. I used to tell the little one to come over to my place anytime.

Sometimes I used to call Child Protective Services ..... Not once did it ever have an effect on the situation that I knew of.

Mopinko, I believe you are trying to do the right thing in a thoughtful manner. Your tenant is probably exhausted and at her wits end. I hope she and her kids can finally get the help they need.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

432. Is this you OP?

Seriously though, this thread gave me the creeps. If anything it sounds like those kids need to be kept away from you. I would love to hear the other side of this situation.

[betsuni]

433. I'm getting one of my sick headaches...

[mopinko]

492. pretty much, yeah.

i work from home, i look out for my neighbors, i love the kids.
i have lived here for almost 30 years.
we have a real community.
and yes, we work with the cops. this ward was a pioneer in community policing.

i have put my hand on many of the kids around here, let them know there was an adult in their corner if they needed it. some of the parents were good friends, even if i thought they were not the best parents. i never did this to anyone before.
i helped a few kids.

i get a lot of love for what i do by the peeps on the ground. dunno what to say about how folks on the interwebs filter things.

[davidpdx]

435. A difficult situation

I grew up with a single mother as my parents divorced before I was in elementary school. My childhood was fucked up and so was my brother's. I was about the same age as the older boy when I had to take care of my brother. I'll leave it at that.

As a landlord it would be a delicate balancing act between doing nothing and getting too involved. If mom is leaving the kids home alone for any amount of time it puts them in danger. Whether a 10 year old is responsible enough to babysit a 5 year old is certainly worth debating. I don't know all the details and stopped reading halfway through the thread as the comments got so nasty. What would I do? That I don't know either. I certainly wouldn't want to be put in that situation by the mother. The situation isn't fair for anyone involved.

The OP rented to the mom on what sounded like conditions (whether they are legal or not is another subject) and mom agreed to them. There aren't many alternatives to getting out of the current situation. Frankly speaking the chance of an agency coming through with some sort of help is slim to none with the way things are funded these days. If the status quo is not acceptable, then the options are either to find a way to help her or give her notice.

[Omaha Steve]

437. Think of the kids safety is priority #1

A wellness check is a national procedure. This is a primary reason.

K&R!

[Sunlei]

439. you edited the OP and thanks you bolded what was edited and mentioned your 'pocket farm'

I can see in your sigline you invite the general public to your face book page to view your 'Urban Farm' url https://www.facebook.com/MoahsArk

Personally, I wish everyone was allowed to grow crops instead of grass on their own property and have a few hens for the delicious fresh eggs. Long as it's not a nuisance or a health hazard, all people should have the right to freedom & liberty on their own property.

IMO though, you can't assume that children hanging around with you on your 'Urban farm' shouldn't have their parent(s) make the decision on contact with any animals.

I too have what you call an "Urban Farm" , pretty much the same thing. a bunch of laying hens, grow veggies and some fruits/pecan trees, a couple great dogs & my mare. By your public invited to view, facebook pictures we do differ substantially on animal husbandry practices.

I do love to show off my animals & give away about 200 dozen eggs a year, but I do not allow contact between my animals & the general public. especially chicken manure contact (even walking on it) or 'gathering eggs from the nests' and little kids contact & my dogs, horse. They're all great with people but I do not run a 'petting zoo' and kids tend to get into everything, it's very hard to watch them every second.

This is my horse dozing, as she does most days waiting for the next apple to come out of the house! . My exterior 'Urban Farm" fencing is 8 foot tall chainlink and buried a foot deep to keep out stray dogs. Interior fencing is 4ft. rail-top.

[IMG][/IMG]

[mopinko]

460. i am very careful who is around my animals.

i have a couple of big dogs, and tho they are all love, they are giant dogs. i do not trust them around any kids that dont know them well.
but the animals are on a different property from the main farm.

i am in a situation where sharing with the community is really my only sane option. everyone is interested and invested in it in a way i never anticipated. i love it that way. and it works to my own ends, which are more about community than cash anyway.

[dilby]

444. Was she black?

For some reason I have this feeling she was black and you just totally destroyed her life because you help take her kids away. Bet you slept really good tonight because that mother didn't.

[boston bean]

446. Those poor kids having to live with the fear of being taken away from their mother!

This poster has stated the women is a month behind in rent, is late most times with the rent.

Me thinks, calling the cops and child protective services was to make this woman move out of the apartment. Because an eviction would have cost the OP money and time. And then to try and make it seem that it was done for the benefit of the children! I'm sickened.

[Skeeter Barnes]

457. That's what this is about.

She's pissed that the rent & gas bill aren't being paid on time. If she doesn't get the money on time, she wants them out, except for the 5 year old boy she is obsessed with. All the carrying on about him while the 10 year old is an afterthought is very revealing. She wants mom & brother out of the picture so he can stay with "grandmother".

When people ask her why she is meddling in other people's lives, she reveals more details of her meddling as proof that she's doing the right thing. She really has no idea how weird all of this is, IMO.

The OP is among the saddest and most disturbing I've read on any forum.

[mopinko]

491. nope, i could evict her outright.

i need no visit from the cops for that.

[boston bean]

495. She gonna stay there now with you doing this to her?

You now have NO reason to evict her.

Seems a bit simpler and less time consuming that way, no?

[mopinko]

471. are you calling me a racist?

i would appreciate it if you would self delete this post. else i will have to straighten you out on that point.
you do not know me, nor do you have any evidence for your scurrilous allegation.

[2pooped2pop]

474. well, are they black? n/t

[B2G]

516. They are black...from Nigeria

See post 15.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11514986

[frustrated_lefty]

448. How utterly horrible.

Hopefully the woman and her children can find a place to rent where the landlord isn't a disgustingly invasive busybody.

[Autumn]

452. Since this is now on record with child services can your property now be

section 8(?) housing?

[99Forever]

458. I'll try to moderate my response to you.

What a hideous, awful, creepy thing to do to someone carrying an incredible load already.

You lady, should be ashamed of yourself. But somehow, I doubt you are.

[Harmony Blue]

459. You are receiving a lot of flack

that I think is not warranted.

I wouldn't do what you did but I understand your reasoning and concern. You had a tough choice to make and you made the choice you felt best for everyone involved IMO.

[mopinko]

472. ty. wish i could say i was shocked,

but, yeah....

[lumberjack_jeff]

461. You did the right thing for the kids. That's all that matters. n/t

[Zorra]

466. The Rise of Chicago's 99% Against Rahm Emanuel, "Mayor 1%"

It's a shame that the Third Way/Republican policies of privatization and snowballing polarization of wealth are forcing more and more working people to make desperate choices due to the hopeless conditions that so many hard working people have been forced to live in.

Home health aides make shit wages with no bennies for doing a really difficult job.

Capitalism is cruel master for economically disadvantaged wage slaves.

If mom had the option of quality affordable child care, you would not have felt that you had to make the decision to call the police to come and take these children away from their mom.

Warren/Sanders 2016. Anyone but Rahm in 2015.

The Rise of Chicago's 99% Against Rahm Emanuel, "Mayor 1%"

Will Rahm Emanuel's effort to establish a privatized neoliberal outpost in Chicago succeed? Not if the ongoing uprising brushfires turn from kindling wood into a contemporary Chicago fire of political resistance. Kari Lydersen, author of "Mayor 1%," tells Truthout Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel is representative of the neoliberal wing of the Democratic party, and he's getting significant pushback in his efforts to expand privatization and limit protests.

Kari Lydersen: Yes I would say he represents the ascent of the neoliberal wing of the Democratic Party . . . but the way that the nickname "Mayor 1%" is used in Chicago and the way I see it, it is also more than that. It's clear that Emanuel's political philosophy and his approach to solving Chicago's problems centers around shifting public resources to the private sector. This isn't necessarily all bad, though it is problematic, especially in terms of the impact on public sector jobs, public education and public services for the most needy. Even more disturbingly, I see "Mayor 1%" as referring to the feeling among many people - especially low-income African Americans - that the city is being reshaped in a way that doesn't include them; that the symbolic and literal structures that make up their neighborhoods and daily lives are being dismantled as the city's resources are being shifted to cater to the "1%" or at least a much smaller percent of the current populace.

[stevenleser]

485. There are many sad consequences of not having a living wage. When I say many

I mean way too many to count.

That is the ultimate culprit here. The woman who isn't doing the right thing for her kids would not be in that position if she had a living wage and Mopinko wouldnt have a decision to make about whether to involve government authorities.

[Zorra]

489. It is absurd, and disgusting, that in 2014 America, mopinko should be faced with a conundrum

of this type.

[Kingofalldems]

488. I wish there was someone like you around when I was a kid.

[B2G]

505. These kids aren't alone

You are obviously watching their apartment like a hawk and your daughter lives upstairs.

And they are most likely asleep the entire time their mom is at work.

[alphafemale]

511. Indeed. How dare she draw the shades!

[BuelahWitch]

531. And we don't know that the roomate really moved out

The story changes by the post.

[LadyHawkAZ]

507. I can't believe the level of vitriol in this thread

You did the right thing.

[flvegan]

510. I'm not going to pile on here.

It's shameful that the father(s) of these two kids isn't helping more, if that's possible and/or appropriate.

[B2G]

512. How do you know he's not?

The OP has said nothing about him at all...he might not even be alive for all we know.

[flvegan]

523. You should re-read my response.

[LeftyMom]

513. We don't know that he's not. The OP isn't exactly proving to be a reliable source of information.

Quite likely there's some contribution there, simply because a parent of two working as a home health care aide would qualify for welfare without some other outside income. Those jobs pay minimum wage or not much over it. A friend of mine in similar circumstances (same job, also two kids) could barely make it here, and it's a safe bet that her rent and utilities were a fraction of what one would pay in Chicago.

[flvegan]

524. Note: "more...if possible...appropriate"

It was in my original response.

[LeftyMom]

525. I know.

I'm just contributing some information and suggesting that the OP is, to use the literary term, an unreliable narrator.

[ProfessorGAC]

522. Mo, You And I Have Been Pals Here For a Long Time, But...

...you've gone around the bend on this issue

[LeftyMom]

527. Is this a plan to force this family out so you can move your husband into the unit?

That's what this post would suggest. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1151&pid=5001

It looks like that didn't work at the time, they renewed their release in May, and now you've decided to drive them out illegally? Because it looks like they were "wonderful" (your words) until you decided you wanted the unit for personal reasons.

[betsuni]

528. Very interesting, the plot thickens

There used to be "plenty of money" and now not? The tenant is from Nigeria. No thought for cultural differences?

[LexVegas]

529. Thats damning.

Wow.

[demmiblue]

532. FFS

"she is so happy to be there, and treats me like family. now she will have to go out and try to find another decent place that will take 2 black boys. oy."

Me, me, me, me.... it is all about me. And if you don't give ME the proper homage, well then, I will report you.

"Plantation" owning ('cause, ya know, black boys aren't acceptable at any other place but at this here benevolent white folk farm), busy-body, control freak...

[Jamastiene]

533. Holy shit.

This would make for a horror movie of epic proportions, if it wasn't real and downright scary. It also appears to illustrate some very real issues that have been discussed on DU in recent weeks too.

From that post:
"now she will have to go out and try to find another decent place that will take 2 black boys. oy."

Again, holy shit.

[kcr]

537. I hope everyone tut tutting those who thought the OP was getting unfairly smeared sees this

There's reporting actual suspected child endangerment, and then there's the OP. Disgusting.