Post removed

[MADem]

1. Trash the group. That's the easiest way to deal with them.

I don't see the admins banning any group because they aren't "sufficiently oppressed." The group for men isn't called "Men's Rights" -- it's just called "Men's Group." Surely, men can talk about things that interest them, can't they? Just because a few jerks stir things up doesn't mean everyone who belongs over there is bad? I just took a quick peek, saw a father's day post, a few posts about penises, a post about suicide rates and statistics about child abuse and of course the Hot Celebrities staple. Not the end of the world--trash it if you don't like it.

I thought the whole Staring thread was stupid. One was more than enough, two (the second one to continue the complaints in the first one) was two too many.

[cui bono]

15. Trashing doesn't help the situation. Just as ignoring people doesn't either.

It simply allows it to continue, albeit unnoticed by those who trash or ignore. My point is that things should change. Why are people so tolerant of blatant sexism?

[MADem]

46. Alert and make a case, then.

By the time I got to that stupid staring thread, it was huge. I opined that the whole enterprise was, well, stupid. Then I clicked on the pic and Google imaged it, and all became clear.

If someone was attuned to this being a total load of crap, why not right click on the pic, get the evidence that it was 4Chan/Reddit/stupid website crap, and just alert w/that?

So much easier than enduring two threads of WAAH over it. That is what a troll wants--to see people with their hair on fire. Just shut it down quickly with a solid alert, but get the evidence first.

[cui bono]

48. That's not the point. The point is sexism, just like racism and bigotry, should not be allowed

to flourish on DU.

[MADem]

55. It won't flourish if your alerts are compelling.

If you just say "This is hurtful and disruptive" you probably aren't going to win. You've got to explain what the deal is. And if people don't buy your alert, it just might be that you are out of step with regard to that particular post. It could also be you drew a bad lot, but if it happens over and over and over again that people are not seeing things your way, it just might be that your POV doesn't match the community standards POV.

[cui bono]

61. This sounds a lot like blaming the victim. We either have standards or we don't.

I am saying DU should stick to the standards it claims to have. This is something that should simply not be tolerated. You don't think a racist OP would get a lock by hosts or admins?

One would like to think that the jury system worked, but in fact, it simply does not. Time after time there are astounding jury results. Sometimes due to bias, sometimes due to sticking up for "friends", sometimes due to lack of thinking, sometimes due to lack of understanding what serving on a jury really means.

But that's my point, that it's time for the admins and hosts to take a stand against sexism.

[ananda]

66. Geezus! Saying alerts have to be compelling..

.. is like telling a victim that their victimhood has to look a certain
way in order to get help or support.

See?

This is all so wrong on so many levels.

[MADem]

76. Look, not everyone is sensitized to EVERY issue.

If you didn't know, for example, that the term Pedhar sagh, is a terrible insult in Farsi, and someone put it in a post directed at some DUer here, how would you know it was a mean thing to say if I didn't explain it to you?

Don't assume that everyone understands the buzz words, the key words, the snide little under-the-radar remarks. Sometimes they fly over people's heads...you know, like that 'staring' thread. Why didn't everyone (including plenty of activist women) "just know" that was made-up bullshit? I'll tellya why--because too many people spent too much time getting POUTRAGED instead of looking it up, doing a little google, and finding out the source of the horseshit.

We CAN help ourselves. The question is--will we?

[roguevalley]

53. some men outed themselves as rapists here and werent banned. apparently it doesnt register as an

Issue to the mods at the time astonishingly enough. I would suggest looking real hard at your daughters and considering the world they will get too. Some don't get it and too many don't care. Home work ... If you don't hear what the op says, go home and ask your women were you ever denied, belittled, harassed, passed over, ignored, humiliated, assaulted or raped by anyone. I think it will be an eye opener for some people. I guess I am old and thought better about this for here. I hope reincarnation happens and all the assholes come back as women. That
Would be karma.

IMHO of course.

[polly7]

56. Who did that, and wasn't banned? nt.

[roguevalley]

62. it was on a rape thread and i will try and find it. it makes me sick to even remember it

[polly7]

71. I think I saw and posted in one of those threads.

I believe the poster was banned .......... he certainly was eviscerated by women and men alike for what he wrote, which was a good (and completely expected) thing to see.

[Nye Bevan]

2. If you alert on these posts and they are consistently not hidden by juries

then your concept of community standards is different from that of DU as a whole.

Your options are the trash thread feature and the Ignore feature. Also, since the posts in the Mens group seem to bother you so much I would suggest that you refrain from clicking on that group.

[cui bono]

16. Trash and ignore only sweep things under the rug.

The fact is sexism is tolerated on DU when racism and bigotry are not. It shouldn't be like that.

Period.

I think we all know that the jury system doesn't really work.

[Gman]

3. There are plenty of very offensive posts in the women's forums

which is why I have them blocked. I suggest you do the same with the men's group if you don't like it.

[cui bono]

17. Such as? People are offended at varying degrees. However, sexism should not be tolerated

on a board that purports itself to be a Democratic board.

[nomorenomore08]

28. I too am wondering what's so offensive. Disagree all you want, but why be personally bothered?

*Edit: Just to clarify, I was referring to Gman's post, not the OP.

[alp227]

29. Name one. nt

[joshcryer]

4. Wait until Clinton runs.

MRA talking points will be standard fare.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. It is in the list of things to ignore

I fear.



How are you?

[cui bono]

18. And ignored for a long, long time apparently.

I'm recuperating from long work hours, but doing well.

How are you doing?

[Gravitycollapse]

6. Sexism is still deeply entrenched in the Democratic party. Much like society...

Which is why these type of things are allowed and also why it still seems abhorrent to some and normal for others.

Some of us see through the fog. But most do not.

[pacalo]

7. Since you haven't been able to visit much, you're probably not aware

that rape threads are posted almost daily (or certainly seems like it) in GD. So are MRA threads. Maybe people are getting tired of the obsession.

[libodem]

9. I have it trashed by key word

Must be working .I'm not exposed to it. No wonder it seems so civil.

[pacalo]

11. Way to go, libodem.

I have it keyword-trashed, too, & it works like a charm. Before I log on each day, though, I always check the GD page to see what's been posted so that I can be assured that my keyword-trash list is working out well for me (it certainly is). Having the HoF forum hidden, btw, seems to have offered the best relief.

[tkmorris]

8. Wrong forum

Try this one http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1259

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. the admins dont like to admit mistakes. esp ones in which they were amply forewarned. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. ding! ding! ding!

[Skittles]

12. trash those pathetic losers

fucking cowards

[William769]

13. kick & recommended.

[polly7]

14. 'Men' deserve a place to discuss issues they're concerned about just as do any other

group of human beings. Unless, you don't believe men deal with any meaningful concerns and are only here to ..... wait, why not ban men here altogether, what do they have to offer anyway?

The 'Men's Group' here is as disconnected from MRA hate sites as the 'Women's Group, and various Feminist groups are from Radfem hate sites. Time for DU to stand up and realize that ALL people struggle one way or another, and that laughing off or pooh-poohing issues that very much involve men is actually quite cruel, when you think about it. Men and women gather as groups in real life to commiserate with one another, get support, or just shoot the shit. Why not here? Ban ALL gender groups if you're going to ban any.

On edit: It wasn't the 'Men's Group' that started the stupid 'stare rape' threads and most people here were smart enough to see what it was all about. Just another crap thread to get people going, which it did ... and it was well responded to. I don't understand your animosity to people in a group who weren't responsible.

[Gravitycollapse]

19. Men do not suffer systematically for being men.

The Men's Group on DU exists chiefly to post half naked photos of women (and occasionally men) and MRA bullshit.

It's not exactly a haven for intellectualism.

[polly7]

23. Oh fuck that.

Men are committing suicide every day over the same issues that 'people' all around the world are struggling with in today's economy. Men are raising children alone, fighting for employment,, etc, etc, etc. - not exactly MRA talking point bullshit. There is one thread with 'half naked photos of women (and some men, btw) - why are you ignoring all of the other threads? Have you seen the photos in HOF? Or how about the ones naked photos posted right here in GD and not even hidden. Very selective. Everyone deserves a place to feel safe and discuss what concerns them. MRA bullshit!!! - go into HOF and you'll see plenty of what you might consider Radfem bullshit then - going to call for that group to be shut down?

[Gravitycollapse]

26. Men committing suicide does not mean men are systematically oppressed for being men.

The operation of a social hierarchy dictates that it is either the subordinate class or subordinate sympathizers/emulators which will be marginalized.

Men are not systematically oppressed for being men. Just as white persons are not systematically oppressed for being white.

I am not entirely certain if a group which caters to men needs to exist on here. But what I am sure of is the current group right now looks very little like what it should if such a group should actually exist.

Let's all have a show of hands for anyone who wants a "White's Group."

Any takers?

[polly7]

35. Men are systematically oppressed under the same system women are in many ways.

To deny that is to have your head in the ground.

EVERY human being has a right to have their very real, legitimate concerns shared, to get advice, moral support, a place to let off steam. You, nor anyone else here has the right to tell them they don't. How arrogant and dismissive to tell them their lives, however good or bad they might be, are so meaningless to anyone else that they don't deserve a voice on a board that has one for every single other 'group'. What a joke.

[Gravitycollapse]

37. Yes, many men are oppressed under the system. But not for being men.

[polly7]

38. For being human beings.

I don't discount anyone's sufferings or concerns depending on gender.

Not sure why you do.

[Gravitycollapse]

39. I do not discount anyone's suffering. I do, however, choose to classify it correctly.

Rather than live within a false sense of equality of circumstance.

[polly7]

44. 'Classifying it correctly'?

According to you. When I see someone with a problem or concern that they consider important enough to get discussion, guidance, advice, understanding on - I consider that person needs it, no matter who they are. It's not my place to 'classify' the struggles of anyone else. If you see something you consider sexist ...... challenge it. As a woman, I find it insulting to believe we're not able to discuss issues without automatically dismissing those here who contribute as MRA members if we're somehow insulted or disagreed with. Juries aren't stupid, they know what is hate speech and what isn't. I think more of the ability and intelligence of female members here than some do, apparently.

[cui bono]

51. You are missing the point that sexism is systemic.

Do you not think racism is systemic? Or do you tell minorities and LGBTQ that hey, straight white people suffer too, under the same system that they suffer under?

[polly7]

54. I KNOW sexism is systemic.

WTF are you to tell me, a survivor of years of abuse, rape and many other things I don't know sexism? I don't tell ANYONE they don't suffer ......... you're missing the point, I realize EVERYONE, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation has their own unique, and shared problems. So you can stick that crap you know where.

[Gravitycollapse]

65. There is no legitimate MRA movement. It is a front for hegemonic masculinity.

Just as the "Tea Party" is a front for racism and sexism and all other sorts of bigotry.

The Men's Rights Movement is a lie. In order for a rights movement to justify its existence, it must first establish that its core identity is subject to systematic prejudice. There is no systematic prejudice against men.

[polly7]

70. I don't give two shits about the MRA movement.

Just as I don't the Radfem movement.

Neither are here, so what's your problem?

[Gravitycollapse]

75. Both are here. Only one is legitimate.

Because only one represents a class which is systematically oppressed.

I try to avoid ideology. But if names were being applied to me, I would not be offended if someone called me a radical feminist.

[MADem]

50. The larger point is that they don't have to be "oppressed" to have their own group.

There's a Celtic group here--are they oppressed? Are the Cooking and Baking people oppressed? How about the Baby Boomers?

Sometimes people want a place to talk about their own shit. Don't trouble trouble, til it troubles you, I say..

[polly7]

58. You're right, MADem. nt.

[Gravitycollapse]

63. Again I ask, who here wants a White's Group? Who wants to lead the White's Group?

Any takers?

Men don't need a special group to discuss their issues. That "group" for men is every major social institution.

In countries under colonial occupation, the occupiers don't need groups to discuss their lives. And those who are part of the occupation class but sympathize with the occupied can exist within the occupied circles.

I'll agree with the existence of a "Men's Group" only on the condition that it be called "Men's Auxiliary" and that it never be allowed to submit posts which imply the oppressed are oppressing the oppressors.

[polly7]

69. You're actually trying to say the men's group here - members of a progressive

site who I see daily posting all over the board advocating for human rights all around the world, posting against war, starting funny threads meant to lift the spirits of everyone, etc. etc. are in any way at all like a KKK race group? Now you've gotten ridiculous. You have no right to make any conditions for the men's or any other group. Why on earth would you think you should?

Men, as part of the human race have every right to have a group to discuss anything they like.

Hilarious.

[cui bono]

21. Yes, but generally the Men's Group members like to come out and sully the threads

that have anything to do with feminism. They also have threads objectifying women as sexual objects and threads making standard MRA claims against women and feminism. Now if they locked those threads you would be correct that they are just needing a place to discuss men's issues, but they don't lock them. They start them and participate in them.

[polly7]

30. And the same goes whenever a man brings up an issue.

The gender wars have turned STUPID. But divisiveness and fighting are so much more fun than actually listening to one another. But yeah ..... blame only one side. Because we women are so weak and voiceless. Sorry .... we're not all victimized by men having the same rights on a message board and some of us believe that all people should have equal rights and opportunity. I'm glad for them. But .......... MRA!!! - sounds scary and hateful. Sorry, they're just fellow posters who are no more MRA hate members or an MRA group than we women who post in the various women's forums are Radfems filled with hate.

[Gravitycollapse]

33. Do not confuse reality with fiction. There is no gender war. There is gender colonialism.

It is an occupation of the minds of the subordinate class by the dominant gender ideology.

[polly7]

36. Bullshit.

The gender wars are what some people live for here.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

42. I can understand that.

And I think the men in that group can see when some jerk comes on to be a jerk and alert it.

And many men do feel oppressed. They get jerked in different directions. Especially the younger men, when it comes to what kind of message they get about what it is to be a man. I think it is good to have a place for them to go to have a discussion man to man. Just like it is a good thing for us to have a place for women to talk woman to woman.

Mind you, it is just my two cents.

[polly7]

47. And they do alert on it, I've also seen quite a few banned from their group for being sexist and

just plain ignorant. Your two cents mean a lot ... of course many men feel oppressed and need support from others.

[flvegan]

20. Wow.

Not saying anything further as I'll be shouted at.

Sitting here and shutting up like a good boy.

[cui bono]

22. From that I take it you are more in favor of animal rights than women's rights. n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

25. You are ridiculous, I'll say it.

Grow up.

[cui bono]

41. But you are puzzled and using a variant of traveler.

So there.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. His gf rec'd the thread. no worries.

[flvegan]

31. Spell that out for me.

Be very, very specific.

"From that I take it you are more in favor of animal rights than women's rights. n/t"

Fucking back that statement up.

[cui bono]

40. Back it up? I read your post. If I misinterpreted it I apologize. But I saw snark in there when

you said something like "I'll just sit here and shut up like a good boy." Do you not think your post came off as being against my OP and being snarky to me?

[flvegan]

43. You made an accusation. I called you on it.

Back up your accusation.

[cui bono]

45. I just did. I even included an apology if I had misinterpreted your post. Do you want to resolve

this or do you just want to fight?

[flvegan]

57. No, you didn't.

You alluded to snark after suggesting that animal rights were higher on the priority list than women's rights for me. I don't know how misinterpretation comes into that forum, since animal rights weren't induced prior.

If I just wanted to fight, you'd already know it. I just want to clear what I said.

[cui bono]

64. Why are you wanting to fight so badly? I apologized if I misinterpreted your initial post.

What is your problem? If I misinterpreted it, then tell me I did and accept my apology. Sheesh.

Wow, you are really wound up. I imagine I may have pushed your button by bringing up animal rights. I did so to make a point because it seemed you were poopooing my concern about women's equality. I didn't mean to make you so upset. I'm sorry I did.

So... back to the point, what was the point you were making with your initial post? Are you in agreement or disagreement with the OP? You still haven't clarified that after I said I may have misinterpreted your post and told you that I took it to be snarky.


p.s. I bought you a heart during the Valentine's Day pledge drive, so if you think I'm against your vegan stance you would be wrong. Bringing that up so you know that's not why I stated my point by bringing up animal rights.

[LeftyMom]

60. No, don't shut up. If you need something explained ask for explanation.

There's a misogyny problem on DU.

Remember when a guy got mad at you and decided to retaliate by speculating about my privates? Remember how he didn't get banned for that (but you got banned for standing up for me?)

That was while ago, so more recently a guy who didn't like me pushing back on his posts and replied that maybe he understood why my ex abused me. He's still an active poster.

At least the guy who accused me of being damaged and playing the victim for talking about my rapist's mentality and what that has to do with rape culture got banned, but probably only because he doubled down and went on and on about it for what seemed like 50 posts. That's not even counting the ones who sent me weird PMs threatening me or trying to psychoanalyze me or trying to get me to hook up with them.

And that's just me, but none of that is unique to me, unfortunately.

[alp227]

32. mainstream websites are male-dominated, a systematic problem in the first place

while the original 3 founders are the 3 admins here i think that someday another DUer will get the keys to the administrative building, as life happens and one of the founders will have to go. there's gotta be a woman among the DU administrators, someday. And speaking of my subject line, $$$$$$$$$. Ad revenue & donations keep DU afloat, so DU ends up needing the $$$$$$$ via traffic, membership, etc from those who post the offensive stuff to begin with!

[nomorenomore08]

34. While I don't endorse doing away entirely with the Men's Group - and I have posted there on occasion

- basically everything else in your post is spot-on. DU has gotten way too comfortable with quasi-MRA bullshit, not to mention reactionary white-dude whining in general. Sure there's sexism, but nowadays there's plenty of thinly veiled racism as well. And all of it just seems to confirm my general pessimism RE: American culture.

[Harmony Blue]

49. Let me give in insight as to why maybe DU community doesn't agree with the broad brush strokes

of labeling every man with an opinion as a MRA.

First lets start with males that are left leaning (liberal). There is overlap with liberal males when it comes to the manosphere which is not immediately apparent. I personally consider the manopshere to be right leaning because of the libertarian sentiment flowing through that sphere however the overlap comes due the fact that many socialist anarchists (to the left) agree with many of their principles of less government interference and less big business of the right wing libertarians.

The manosphere consists of those that look at economic realities, social realities, or a combination of both. MRA's tend to try to look towards changing laws and activism to raise awareness (eg. billion dollar divorce industry, billion dollar prison industry) however what they are trying to do is often turn back the clock (I believe is futile). MRA's can be sub-divided into two groups: Tradcons (Traditional conservatives) that believe in the religious institution of marriage (a.k.a Marriage 1.0, pre 1970's) or modern MRA's (believe in Marriage 2.0 post-1970's). The PUA community diametrically opposes MRA's in that they do not believe in the institution of marriage, and fully support sex positive Feminism for the opportunities it has opened up for them in sexuality (For example marriage is no longer needed to access sex). Where MGTOW's differ from PUA's is that they see the PUA's investing so much time putting on fake masks to pretend to be people they are not to land women as sad state of affairs. Instead of putting a fake front they rather be comfortable in their own skin and go their own way. However, MGTOW's tend to have a lot of undercurrent of anger against women, but I think this anger stems from society not giving them a voice or taking their issues seriously and they believe that women have all the support of society as a whole. Grass eaters are in a way like MGTOW except they do not have such anger and they do not see as sex the most important part of life like PUA's.

I personally am a grass eater and my interests tend to be on the scientific side of things. I prefer learning many facets of the world and the best way to become a better feminist is to learn about the manosphere. But that leads me to the ultimate conclusion and that is we should strive to be humanist. I personally don't understand the squabbling between the feminist sphere or the manosphere because if you read between the lines they are saying the same thing! They want their voices and opinions heard. Yup, something so simple and it is often overlooked.

[nomorenomore08]

72. Everyone has the right to an opinion. And I think some posters have been unfairly maligned.

But the whole "Men's Rights" thing - to the extent that it isn't just a backlash against feminism, which it is in large part - frankly just perplexes me. I don't see what "rights" men as a whole are collectively being denied, apart from those which relate specifically to men of color (race issues) or working-class men (class issues) or disabled men (disability issues). Yes, in many ways men are just as constrained by outdated gender roles as women are, but I think the ultimate solution to that - at least theoretically - would be for more men to embrace feminism. All in all, I don't believe that the anti-feminist backlash helps men in any way - quite the opposite. Seeing women as adversarial or somehow "other" - which seems to be implied by concepts like MGTOW - will only increase our bitterness and alienation, as men.

[McCamy Taylor]

52. I stand up for myself. And DU was the only liberal site that did not tombstone Hillary in 2008.

Daily Kos, Buzzflash, Salon---I had to stay away from them all in 2008 because the administrations got so ugly with their Hillary bashing and general woman bashing. DU was very fair in contrast. So cut Skinner some slack.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. What in the hell are you talking about?

The men's group has had ten posts in the last week, including the three posts today contributing to an ever-so-controversial "happy father's day" thread.

And none, not one, of those posts had anything to do with whatever the fuck it is that you're on about.

The mens' group is just like the KKK?

Seriously?

The perpetually offended have such a hard-on about TMG that they're not satisfied even when the place is utterly silent.

I am convinced, with complete seriousness, that DU has been taken over by trolls and saboteurs, intent to turn it into a caricature of progressivism. I no longer think it is a place dedicated to get democrats elected, but to make (D) become a third party intent on personality worship and doctrinal purity.

The grownups have left the building.

[cui bono]

73. Something you choose to continually ignore and deny and pretend to not exist. n/t

[ohheckyeah]

67. I'm a grown woman and I can stand up for myself.

Asking the admins to force my point of view on others only sweeps it under the rug....much like racism was swept under the run until Obama was elected. You can't force people to not be sexist, only to keep it to themselves where it festers and eventually spews out. I don't need the admins to be daddies to me. I'll fight my own battles.

I don't care if the men have a group. I visited it and found some of it enlightening, some of it quite juvenile, IMO. I visited all THREE feminist groups and found some stuff informative and other stuff rather silly, IMO.

When I come across sexism and I'm in the mood, I say what I have to say and move on. To think I'm going to change anyone's mind is rather delusional and arrogant.

Even my post here makes me think of this:

[polly7]

74. +1000. We're not weak little flowers who have to eliminate groups to

survive on a message board.

[McCamy Taylor]

68. "Men are not oppressed" is a lie. Both genders are oppressed in the US.

Women are told they can cry but not get angry. Men are told they can get angry but not cry. When you are denied one of the three basic emotions, you are oppressed. Period. Our culture is cruel to both genders. Our culture needs to evolve from both directions.

Now, outside the US and Western Europe, it is a whole direction story. Worldwide, women are indeed oppressed and they need some help. But the oppression of women worldwide also oppresses their sons, husbands and fathers---the men just do not realize it, because they have been brainwashed.

[LeftyMom]

77. I think ultimately the problem is that the jury system doesn't work.

Moderation had a lot of problems but one of the advantages it had was context. If you saw the same poster saying borderline arguably sexist things over and over eventually even the thickest person could figure out that yeah, they were a total sexist. With juries as long as somebody doesn't say something blatant in one single post they're in the clear. Hell, even if they do it gets past a jury half the time.

Racism is presenting the same problem. As long as the poster doesn't engage in the text equivalent of a cross burning in a single post they get away with it more often than not.

Homophobia and transphobia (especially the latter) still don't get reliable hides, even when they're blatant. There's a post in GD today where a poster is calling a trans woman Him and He/She and when last I saw nobody did a damn thing about it.

The backstop is that the admins might see it eventually, but let's face it: a group of exclusively white dudes should not be the backstop for catching racism and sexism. They're not attuned to it. Through no fault of their own, but it's just not their experience and in this society it can't be. And they're busy, I'm sure, but they miss a lot and responses to even the most egregious bigotry are slow.