Why do we consider "faith" to be a virtue?

[MindPilot]

It is by definition the belief in something for which there is no evidence.

Is this really trait someone should be proud of? Something we should admire in public figures, business leaders and heads of state?

Why is a person who proclaims belief and faith in god, and lives in fear thereof, automatically assumed to be of stronger character than someone who does not?

Telling people how important god is in your life gets you elected, telling people how important Captain Kirk is in your life will get you committed. I see no difference except that there is a slight possibility that Captain Kirk could exist. (And of course I don't face the prospect of eternal torture if I fail to adequately worship Kirk.)

[thereismore]

1. I don't. Anymore. nt

[MineralMan]

2. "We" don't.

Some people do, though. I'm not among them, nor are many people I know. For other people, though, some expression of faith in something, usually Christianity, is expected from politicians, and they rarely disappoint.

My concerns are with people's actions, statements, and beliefs about real policy issues, not what deity they address in their prayers, if any. It just doesn't matter.

If it's important to some people, then it's important to those people. They're usually easily satisfied with some mumblings about religion. So, politicians make those mumblings. Beyond that, who really cares?

[MindPilot]

35. "We" as in the very generalized cultural-societal sense.

"We Americans", for example.

[el_bryanto]

3. This is very specifically a religious concern and probably belongs in the religion forum

rather than in GD.

Bryant

[djean111]

21. I think this is specifically about politicians talking about their faith, really. n/t

Maybe the OP needs to be more specific, but in today's political dust-up, Hillary's faith seems to be the subject du jour.

[el_bryanto]

24. Yes - but it's moving more towards general principals and not just Hillary's statement. nt

[Raine1967]

34. Agreed.

I hope that the OP closes this thread and takes it to the religion forum.

[MindPilot]

36. Be nice if our poltical leaders would follow that advice. n/t

[truebrit71]

80. No shit...

[Warren Stupidity]

75. This is very specifically a political issue and belongs right here.

Thanks again for trying to suppress discussions that make you uncomfortable!

[el_bryanto]

76. This isn't the religion forum. You don't get to just pound on people until they leave.

This is specifically a religious question, and by the terms of this website it should be regulated to the religion forum. I understand that the moderators aren't actually doing that these days, as Gun posts and Religion posts are allowed to flourish - but those are the rules.

Bryant

[truebrit71]

81. No it isn't, but nice try...

It is specifically about 'faith' and politician's making their hollow professions thereof...if it makes you uncomfortable, trash the thread, otherwise sod off whilst the grown-ups try and have a conversation...

[el_bryanto]

82. Bullshit.

There are no specific references to political leaders in the OP; there are generic references to "public figures, business leaders and heads of state." That moves it out of the realm of politics and into the realm of philosophy/religion.

Bryant

[truebrit71]

84. Ah, I see, 'public figures...heads of state' are not political leaders...

....got it...

[el_bryanto]

85. They are not specific political leaders

Jesus - why have the rule at all if you aren't going to enforce it?

Bryant

[truebrit71]

86. Are you using hyperbole or asking some dude named Jesus that question?

:confused:

[el_bryanto]

87. Hyperbole. I'm sorry if I confused you - I guess I assumed you were smart enough to

figure that one out. My Mistake.

Here's the rule --> Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.

Why does the rule exist? Why does it include religion?

Bryant

[truebrit71]

89. Speaking of being smart enough to figure things out...

...this discussion is about FAITH not RELIGION. Shall I get the definitions for you, or are you smart enough to do that by yourself?

[el_bryanto]

90. Faith and religion are the same subject in this context. Or I can't imagine why they wouldn't be.

But if you want to play word games to win your point - go ahead.

Bryant

[truebrit71]

94. I have faith the sun will raise in the east tomorrow...

...but I do not believe in religion.

Those aren't word games, those are realities.

[el_bryanto]

98. So you don't see this (from the OP) as a question about religion?

"Why is a person who proclaims belief and faith in god, and lives in fear thereof, automatically assumed to be of stronger character than someone who does not?"

Bryant

[truebrit71]

105. No. Religion is not the same thing as faith.

faith [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

[el_bryanto]

109. Thanks for the dictionary definition. I have to admire your commitment to pretense.

Once a discussion becomes about faith in specifically religious belief than it moves into the religion territory.

But I can see you aren't going to admit that.

Bryant

[truebrit71]

117. Shouldn't you be off somewhere whining about being oppressed or something?

[el_bryanto]

118. And the cherry on the top.

Christians in America, by the way, aren't oppressed. But some DUers don't much like religious folks and Christians and enjoy mocking them. Do you know anybody like that?

Bryant

[truebrit71]

119. ..and yet someone that has a handle exactly like that whines about it...

...pretty much non-stop...

[el_bryanto]

120. I wonder who you are talking about?

It can't be me, as I post on a wide variety of subjects. Frankly I'd much rather not deal with this issue (which is why I believe specifically religious subjects should be confined to the religion forum).

Bryant

[truebrit71]

121. Where you can gang up on people and stifle dissent?

No thanks...it's better to leave it here in the bright light of GD...

[el_bryanto]

122. Oh I don't participate in the Religion Forum anymore

Ironically because I was ganged up on, mocked, ridiculed, attacked and crapped out. I trashed it and don't intend to participate there in the future. I'm sure you would find a warm reception there.

Bryant

[unblock]

4. not eternal torture, perhaps. but at least a phaser on kill or a photon torpedo perhaps.

actually, more likely, drawn-out fisticuffs.

[MindPilot]

41. Your punishment will be assignment to the away team.

In a RED JUMPSUIT!!111!!

[sarge43]

44. The Agony Booth

and in a red jump suit

[Octafish]

140. Mr. Kyle...

...your Agonizer, please.

[elleng]

5. I have no idea.

[mike_c]

6. "we" don't....

I have never liked knowing my nation's leadership is mostly composed of people who either believe-- or even simply claim to believe-- superstitious fairy tales.

[closeupready]

9. +1.

[eppur_se_muova]

7. Many of us don't. nt

[Rex]

8. I guess because it means they are optimistic and hopeful.

Two things you need to keep a society from rebelling.

[edhopper]

13. Was Osama Bin Laden

optimistic and hopeful, because he sure had faith.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. That Repubican candidate who says his Christianity allows for stoning gay people to death....

is a 'person of faith'. Do you see that view as optimistic? I see it as a terrorist threat myself.

[arcane1]

37. If they are optimistic and hopeful that the End Times are near, they won't plan for the future.

That's a liability to have in a politician.

[Moostache]

48. Take a good long look around at this current society...

I'd say that we are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overdue for some rebellion and in need of a modern day Moses to lay low the worshippers of the golden calf...

[Goblinmonger]

83. So following that argument

atheists cannot be optimistic and hopeful then?

[ZombieHorde]

135. That could be the perception of many in the general public.

The rebuttals to your post make good points, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if many or most people viewed faith as an optimistic and hopeful world view, and lack of faith as a pessimistic world view.

[Rex]

137. Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

That was my point, thanks for elaborating on it. YES, most people view religion (that they are associate with) as positive and gives them hope in life. The examples from the other 5 replies are about fringe groups that view religion more like a cult. Which, there are those too...but I tend to see people that are optimistic about life and it is their religion that drives this view. At least in the mainstream, no doubt some are just waiting on the End of the World...bet they are waiting for the rest of their lives.

[NightWatcher]

10. if one person believes something bizarre, they're nuts. If enough people believe it...

it's ok.

I'm sure that when the founder of each religion told his first friend about it, he seemed crazy. But after he was able to sell the crazy idea to enough people, it became acceptable. Except for scientology, we all agree that it is insane.

[Rod Beauvex]

11. YOU MEAN KIRK'S NOT REAL!!??

My whole life has been a lie.


Faith and religion are coping mechanisms. The church exists for the same reason the bar does.

[Maedhros]

30. An opiate of the masses, as it were. [n/t]

[icymist]

69. Slow down. There really is a Captain Kirk:

Capt. James Kirk Tapped To Skipper Navy's Most Futuristic Ship Yet

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/capt-james-kirk-zumwalt-2013-10#ixzz34rkYH7Hs

[Rod Beauvex]

73. I bet he got tease alot for that.

Pretty cool though. :p

[edhopper]

12. The media accepts anyone's faith in anything

when was the last time you saw an interviewer question even the most extreme right wing fundamentalist belief. they are treated as a "good person" because they believe in something. Even if that something leads to the harm of others (LGBT rights, abortion, healthcare, etc...)

But should a politician running for office say they are an atheist, that's all they will be asked about.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. But if you say Sulu is important to you, they deny your rights and say God wants you to suffer....

They are sure God agrees with them, of course. That's what 'faith' really is, the presentation of one's own opinions as the opinions of the creator of all things. It is a self promotional tactic favored by those of huge ego and small hearts.

[el_bryanto]

16. And that's all there is to faith? really?

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Actually, 'faith' is invisible and knowable only by the individual

What others can see are actions. And yes, most people use religious rhetoric to cloth their own opinions with an air of the divine. 'Well, I'm a Christian, so I am against equality for those people, God is in the mix, it is not MY opinion, it is God's. Do you disagree with God?'
Those who announce their own holiness do so with agenda. Jesus himself said those who make public noise about their 'faith' are all hypocrites.
People who really see a thing as sacred do not drag it to the marketplace. They do not sully it by using it as a device of their own human agenda. Folks who do drag things into the marketplace make those things commodities, lacking all sacredness and they open those once sacred things to be treated as mere politics.
I was raised in Churches that taught that to exploit the divine for one's own agenda is the sin known as 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' and it is called in Scripture the one unforgivable error. 'Vote for me because of Jesus' is heresy in a religious context and un-American in a political context.

[YoungDemCA]

93. "Vote for me because of Jesus' is heresy in a religious context..."

...and un-American in a political context."

Well said.

[noiretextatique]

114. faith is a private matter

It should remain private.

[MohRokTah]

15. The United States of America is, overall, and extremely religious nation.

Thus, faith becomes an important component when voters consider the character of candidates.

Those who are faithless are in the minority in this country.

[Moostache]

51. Yet another problem with this country...as if we don't have enough anyway!

1) Its my opinion (and I base this on experiences in both campaigning and polling) that anyone who looks at you and says that they are considering a candidate's faith as a gauge of their character is LYING. They are looking for a publicly sanctioned excuse to rip on someone they disagree with over any number of issues, but they always go back to the god answer as if it were a game of Euchre and they had the trump cards or a straight flush on the flop.

If someone looks me in the eye and tells me that they are voting for one platform or party or candidate based on religion, that person is immediately deemed a fool in my eyes and someone unworthy of another second of my precious and fleeting time on this Earth.

2) The "faithless" are growing....FAST. Many still refuse to identify as atheist due to the persistent negativity and connotations of atheists as the trench coat wearing perverts. They prefer the label of "unaffiliated", but the total number of people that no longer profess faith as part of their identity is on the rise, finally.

[LanternWaste]

17. More accurately, faith is merely trust in that of which we do not have absolute knowledge

"by definition the belief in something for which there is no evidence....

More accurately, faith as referred to by the classics is merely trust in that of which we do not have absolute knowledge (as per MLK Jr. in his sermon 'Eulogy for the Martyred Children', CS Lewis in 'Mere Christianity' and Albert Schweitzer, 'The Kingdom of God and Primitive Christianity').

Hence, I use faith daily on my drive into work as I do not posses absolute knowledge of all relevant drivers, and must trust them to one degree or another to drive within certain parameters.

I do see your gist however. Many people will point at the imaginary (national or regional borders, economics, etc), and tell us how important they are in hopes of getting elected...

[Arugula Latte]

26. To me there's a big difference in acknowledging a general lack of absolute knowledge

-- admitting that there are things that the human mind hasn't figured out yet, and things in the universe that remain unknown -- and embracing and expressing very specific and out-there supernatural ideas (e.g. a virgin-born carpenter, the product of a deity rape, was killed in ancient Judea, arose from the dead, and will return to Earth to save those who believe in his magical qualities).

[LanternWaste]

28. Belief in imaginary red and blue lines on a map restricting both us and others seems pretty far out

Belief in imaginary red and blue lines on a map restricting both ourselves and others in many activities seems pretty far out there too...

[Arugula Latte]

29. But don't you believe in the existence of the brutish Gerrymander?

[Logical]

33. There is no proof at all that god exists. You know other drivers exist! nt

[RainDog]

19. I see all the god bother as part of the smarminess of American political life

I just ignore it unless a politician claims they have a mainline to god and god is telling him/her what should be done in this nation. then, I oppose that person. entirely. No national Democrat goes that route, tho, afaik.

The best thing about faith is the music it has produced.

I got yer Jesus on the mainline right here. This makes me get happy, even if I don't believe the theology.

But if I had Jesus on the mainline, I would tell him I want to get rid of all the talibornagains from public office.

[randys1]

108. Boy that's the truth...The Winan's etc...

I god damn love gospel music from the Brothers and Sisters...makes me smile big time

ever listen to

[RainDog]

113. he's hitting those high notes

on the trumpet! wow.

here's more my style...

[Arugula Latte]

20. Anti-intellectualism and belief in magical nonsense have been venerated in U.S. culture for decades.

But, as Mark Twain said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

[waddirum]

62. Archie Bunker said the same thing:

“It ain’t supposed to make sense; it’s faith. Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe.”

http://blog.sarcasmsociety.com/quotes-blurbs/top-10-archie-bunker-quotes.html

[YoungDemCA]

97. The happy horseshit

Whatever gets you through the night, I guess.

I respect people of faith (I am one of them, FWIW), and I even welcome public discussion of said faith-both for and against it. But using something very personal as a political tool to bludgeon and condemn people who disagree with you...fuck that.

[randys1]

110. Indeed, but threads like this and conversations like this are helpful and rare.

Personally I look forward to the day when a religious person is being mocked for their belief, not the atheist

[Uncle Joe]

22. I'm not a religious person but I believe as Al Gore has stated in his book "The Assault on Reason"

"that faith trumps fear, fear trumps reason and reason trumps faith," they're all evolutionary and necessary requirements in the human psyche to insure survival of the species.

Thanks for the thread, MindPilot.

[blkmusclmachine]

23. Big MINUS to me.

[Whisp]

25. I consider it to be a weakness.

It's not very different than believing in Santa Claus.
Yet most grow out of the Claus Phase.

[MadrasT]

31. Who is "we"? I don't. n/t

[bigtree]

32. people have all sorts of notions about faith, not restricted to any one belief

. . . I'm more concerned that we respect those expressions of faith which we may not always agree with; especially in our political debate.

How you feel about the faith of others is your own business; so long as you're not trying to impose those views on anyone.

[Jamaal510]

43. +1

[Puzzledtraveller]

78. thank you bigtree

[YoungDemCA]

99. Very simple and to the point

Rec.

[noiretextatique]

115. but they ARE trying to impose their views on us

Christian conservatives, that is. That is the context from which this discussion veers from reality. I feel no obligation to "respect" the beliefs of Westboro or Pat Robertson or Focus on Family. Nor do I feel obligated to respect the beliefs of HRC. I don't care what anyone believes, but I do believe in separation of church and state, and the rw does not. No respect deserved.

[SammyWinstonJack]

124. +1.

[rhett o rick]

38. The religious have a big lobby and have convinced a great many that having faith

in God (most specifically the Christian God or Jewish God) means a person is good and not having that faith in God is bad. It simplifies it for those that dont want to think too hard.

[alarimer]

39. I don't.

If any politician can run and simply say, "I am not a believer, but I believe that everyone in this country has a right to believe (or not) as they see fit." Or words to that effect, they will have my vote. This pandering to the religious crowd ans using religion as an "in" for political power (see Hillary and The Family, which as far as I am concerned is all about POWER and not religion) is bullshit.

[MindPilot]

42. Agreed. And more than being about power, per se,

it is about the consolidation of power--and by extension, wealth--into the hands of a few.

[City Lights]

40. I don't consider it a virtue. nt

[Towlie]

45. Faith and gullibility are the same. The only difference is whether you want it to sound good or bad.

[moriah]

68. Thanks for calling 80% of likely Democrat voters gullible.

Those attitudes will sure help you in GOTV efforts!

[MisterP]

46. same reason we go out doors instead of windows every time? #Hume

I'd take him over Wells's crank writings any day

[AAO]

47. For Christsakes, NO!

To hell with "faith"!!

[AAO]

49. I know it's not politically correct, but

I think "believers" are as brainwashed as Faux News viewers.

[Hoppy]

50. my favorite definition of faith--

Trying your damnedest to believe in something you know can't possibly be true.

[Fred Gilmore]

52. Definitions:

Faith: Reaching a conclusion absent of facts.

Science: Using facts to reach a conclusion.

[SamKnause]

53. I do not consider "faith" to be a virtue !!!

I believe the exact opposite.

The majority of religions are anti women.

I refuse to be delegated to a second class status because of my gender.

I refuse to believe in a "Deity" that chooses to remain an enigma.

How long do we have to wait for "faith" to solve the world's problems ???

From my viewpoint "faith" is the root cause of many problems, not the solution.

[ancianita]

54. Faith is a construct not related to religion. Sting sang about it in one of my favorite songs.

Faith is more like deeply held trust in another's best self, or some event's best outcome. That's why we say that we negotiate "in good faith." In that sense, and in other contexts, 'trust' also could be used. Overall, faith is a word that describes some kind of positive meaning that we assign for what we know is a short-lived existence in an indifferent universe.

[rug]

55. There's enough straw in that post to make a broom.

[mainer]

56. Completely agree with you

While I respect those who cite the New Testament as their guiding light for how they conduct their lives, I cannot respect anyone who cites their belief in "the Bible" as a virtue. There is a difference between trying to follow Jesus's philosophy (charity towards others) and those who "believe" in every fable told by superstitious followers of a mystical cult.

[0rganism]

57. all comments about the overzealous religious traditions of this country aside, maybe it's because...

a lot of people figure, if you can't have faith in the almighty omnipotent omniscient God that is described in the Bible which is the accepted source of ultimate truth to many, how could you possibly have faith in your fellow human? Shorter version: if you can't trust God how can you trust me? if you don't believe God's going to make it okay in the long run, how the heck can any human pull this mess together?

i was thinking about this today, and that's about the best i can come up with from a non-religious perspective. in a way, it's an expression of the absolute despair for the intentions and capabilities of one's fellow human which really does permeate American culture.

[abelenkpe]

58. I don't. Cant speak for everyone though. nt

[Prophet 451]

59. Perhaps because telling 80% of teh world they're delusional is unwise n/t

[hrmjustin]

60. As a believer I don't look to the faith of my elected officials or candidates.

It is not easy to have faith so I consider it a virtue but it can be abused.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

61. "I don't face the prospect of eternal torture if I fail to adequately worship Kirk."

You don't know any Picard fans,...do ya...

[Egnever]

63. Basic politics, it isn't rocket science.

PRINCETON, NJ -- The large majority of Americans -- 77% of the adult population -- identify with a Christian religion, including 52% who are Protestants or some other non-Catholic Christian religion, 23% who are Catholic, and 2% who affiliate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Another 18% of Americans do not have an explicit religious identity and 5% identify with a non-Christian religion.

Find me a politician willing to buck 77% of the population and I will show you a politician that will have a hard time getting elected.

[LostOne4Ever]

64. Because the majority of the people who live in our culture

were brought up as believers with the belief that morality is based upon god.

[Skittles]

65. it's majority rule

and many of those people simply CANNOT *not believe*, because they know they would be ostracized from their families and community - it's seriously ugly business

[DirkGently]

66. At this point it's a pledge of cultural normalcy.

What was that poll -- atheists are less trusted than terrorists or vampires or something?

But most of America doesn't want someone who talks like a fundamentalist --- Huckabee saying the Constitution doesn't trump the Bible and so forth.

"We" apparently want someone who is *nominally* religious. And so far, that means just Christian, and almost always Protestant.

Politicians basically have to go to church and send out Christmas cards, and occasionally ask that God bless America. Nothing fancy or loud or particularly fervent.

It's a hypocritical exercise. Even most religious people don't want someone who takes the Bible literally, particularly not the Old Testament stuff about stoning women and children and all of that. Huckabees aside, most American Christians get creeped out when people drone on about speaking to the Lord or punishing sinners or any of that.

They just want someone who grew up in the same traditions and is therefore culturally "normal."

So here we are. To run for major office, you have to espouse middling-to-strong Christian beliefs. You don't have to act on them -- and in fact the strongest religious rhetoric comes from those with the most contempt for all Jesus' talk about modesty and forgiveness and helping the poor and all of that -- but you have to have that cultural background, or you're just too "weird" to be trusted.

Apparently.

[flvegan]

67. Maybe alleged "faith" shouldn't be enough.

If one claims to be a Christian, prove up that claim in how you live your life. Regardless of evidence, if one had such faith and lived their life in accordance, that evidence could probably be overlooked because that person lived in accordance with that belief.

"I believe, and that allows me to be a selfish asstwit of the highest order." shouldn't work anymore. Jesus Christ would (facepalm) at that, right? But then, He was an Essene and that's a whole 'nother conversation.

*heads exploding all over*

[Iggo]

70. Okay, okay. I'll add to the chorus: We?

[LeftyMom]

71. To be fair

the life lessons and moral instruction from Star Trek are entirely more humane and relevant to modern life.

[m-lekktor]

72. I don't. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

74. And one more aspect --

people behaving decently because if they don't, the sky daddy will throw them into hellfire and brimstone as opposed to people behaving decently because we only have one life and it's better to go through that life being kind to your fellow humans and animals. The first scenario is for the reward, the second because it's the right thing to do. Which is more genuine?

[ProfessorGAC]

125. Been Asking That Question For Years, Taz

Almost verbatim.

[truebrit71]

128. And to the point of the OP which is more virtuous?

[Puzzledtraveller]

77. I have faith

I cannot speak for anyone else, nor do I want or care too. I have no fear, not as a staunch atheist many years ago, and a deeply spiritual person today. As far as why it is a virtue? It is a value people place on something, something that they themselves may experience and therefore acknowledge it's value if another proclaims to have or share that same thing. If faith is not a virtue to you, then it's not a virtue, to you.

[truebrit71]

79. Good question. I think it actually exposes a deep character flaw rather than being a 'strength'...

...

[hrmjustin]

88. So I as a believer have a deep character flaw?

[truebrit71]

91. A believer in what?

Belief in mythical cloud beings that simultaneously love us, but condemn us to hell? Yes, that would represent a character flaw...

[hrmjustin]

96. Personally I am an Episcopalian. I don't condemn anyone to hell.

[truebrit71]

101. No, but your God does...

...right?

[hrmjustin]

102. Not the God I believe in. I believe in a loving God.

I don't think hell exists.

[truebrit71]

103. So not the Biblical God then?

The one smiting and killing, and mass-drownings and the like...

You're a fan of God 2.0

I don't think hell exists either as another place or plane of existence, i think it's been fairly well documented that hell can exist right here in earth...and that is probably the number one reason why I don't believe in a kind and benevolent god...

[hrmjustin]

104. Yes I prefer the loving God of Christianity.

[truebrit71]

106. So never mind all of the bad shit and wicked temper tantrums he had in the old testament...

....but let's concentrate on the nice stuff he did in the new testament...?

[hrmjustin]

112. Yes pretty much. Jesus is the focus of Christians.

[Humanist_Activist]

123. But Jesus created hell and said that people will be sent there.

How do you reconcile that?

[rug]

126. What character flaw?

Personally, I think condescension is right up there.

[truebrit71]

127. The ability to believe the unbelievable...

...and the willingness to blindly follow that which makes no sense at all...

[hrmjustin]

129. Sorry but I can't accept there is no God.

Too hard to believe for me. I accept there might n8t be and when we die that it maybe it but I don't believe that.

[truebrit71]

131. See, that sounds 'funny' to me...

I was a true believer for many, many years, and then it just dawned on me how ridiculous it all was...It was out of fear, and habit that I had continued to "believe" all those years. I have never felt more liberated than when I drew my first breath as an atheist...like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders...and then I look at all of the other believers and hope that one day they too will wake up and realize, that there is only the here and now, that there is only this lifetime, and we had better spend it wisely...

[hrmjustin]

132. well I respect your experience but I don't feel a weight on my sholders as a believer.

[truebrit71]

134. You have to take the weight off first...

..to know that it was there...

[rug]

130. Without that "character flaw" no one would vote.

As to the rest of your post, I rarely respond to leaps of logic.

[truebrit71]

133. But it is "logical" to blindly follow the unknown?

Okay....

Are you suggesting that you have to have faith to vote? So atheists don't vote. Yikes, talk about leaps of logic...

[rug]

136. That thought is entirely within your mind.

You, rather irrationally, move from a disdain for belief to an, unsupported, conclusion that believers "blindly" follow their belief.

As to what I was suggesting, it was that your prior post is ludicrous.

[truebrit71]

138. Ahh, so apparently a believer in "god" is the rational one...

...but the person that requires proof, or evidence is the irrational one...yes?

Got it.

[rug]

139. Judging by this exchange, yes.

[truebrit71]

142. I'm sorry, but who was it that said, in this very thread in fact, that "condescension"..

...was a character flaw...

Oh wait...that was YOU wasn't it....

But you still haven't explained how belief in something with ZERO evidence of actually existing is rational, but demanding proof of existence is irrational...??

[rug]

143. Why yes it was. On the other hand, accuracy is a virtue.

[truebrit71]

144. So other than being hoisted by your own petard...

...you got nothing, is that it?

[rug]

145. I got the etymology of petard.

Petard comes from the Middle French peter, to break wind.

Somehow it seems apt you used that.

[truebrit71]

146. To describe you?

Why yes it does....

[rug]

147. Not me. You'll have to excuse me now. I must step back.

[NuclearDem]

92. It's not, but...

That said, I've got no reason to mock people who believe their faith compels them to do good. I don't necessarily agree, since there are completely secular reasons for wanting to do good, but I don't necessarily consider, as I once did, that faith is a deal breaker when it comes to allies.

[treestar]

95. Religion has existed from the beginning of cultures

and exists in every culture.

It's not so simple - people have always wondered why we are here and always will.

There are always times when we have to make decisions based on incomplete evidence. Nothing is certain. People have to be willing to take steps without complete assurance that it's going to work out exactly as we wanted.

[BainsBane]

100. It's pretty obviously not seen as such around here

Which even the most casual reader knows. If it were, we wouldn't have had dozens of OPs proclaiming Clinton a horrendous person for mentioning the Bible.

[stopbush]

107. Faith is the cheapest commodity out there, in every sense of the word "cheap."

[amuse bouche]

111. There is absolutely nothing virtuous about 'faith'

Absolute nonsense

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

116. Carl Sagan's movie "Contact" was pretty interesting

Jodie Foster was a scientist and discounted faith in favor of the empirical, the palpable, and the tangible. The world preferred to send someone of faith to meet the aliens and all Jodie Foster had to do was lie about it and she would have been chosen but she didn't.

In a conversation with her new boyfriend Joss, the writer of religious books she can't bring herself to admit that there might be other ways of knowing the universe than just using her scientific method.

Joss: "...I had … an experience. Of belonging. Of unconditional love. And for the first time in my life I wasn’t terrified, and I wasn’t alone..."

Ellie: "And there’s no chance you had this experience simply because some part of you needed to have it?"

Joss: "...Look, I’m a reasonable person, and reasonably intelligent. But this experience went beyond both. For the first time I had to consider the possibility that intellect, as wonderful as it is, is not the only way of comprehending the universe. That it was too small and inadequate a tool to deal with what it was faced with..."


And yet by the end of the film, Jodie Foster has a personal experience that she couldn't prove or comprehend. She could only appreciate it through her subjective belief that it happened to her and wasn't a hallucination.

"Dr. Arroway, you come before us with no evidence. No records, no artifacts–only a story that–to put it mildly–strains credibility. Over half a trillion dollars was spent, dozens of lives were lost. … Are you really going to sit there and tell us that we should simply take this all on faith?"

"Because I can’t. I had … an experience. I can’t prove it. I can’t even explain it. All I can tell you is that everything I know as a human being, everything I am–tells me that it was real.

I was given something wonderful. Something that changed me. A vision of the universe that made it overwhelmingly clear just how tiny and insignificant–and at the same time how rare and precious we all are. A vision … that tells us we belong to something greater than ourselves … that we’re not–that none of us–is alone.

I wish I could share it. I wish everyone, if only for a moment–could feel that sense of awe, and humility … and hope. That continues to be my wish. ..."


I loved this movie and I think Carl Sagan saw the issue of faith as something hard to explain but something that science can't just dismiss too easily. We can't even understand why a mass of cells, nerves, and blood make us self-aware and able to use the scientific method. I think there are in fact other ways of understanding the universe than simply using logic and science. I can't really feel confident in dismissing one way over the other. I just know that I respect someone like a Shaman or Zen master who truly believes and subjectively experiences other worlds or states of being. I don't respect individuals who lie about having faith to gain an advantage, like Dr. Drumlin (Tom Skerritt) did.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

141. Because Gods, politicians, and salesmen of hair products say it is.