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Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:50 AM

Obama needs to call Arne Duncan out for his new tactics for special education students.

The Secretary of Education of a Democratic administration has just announced that he is pushing for a harder curriculum and expanded testing for students with special needs.

This is a dangerous thing to say, and it will do much harm. I expect there to be someone in authority telling Arne Duncan the truth about this policy. So far, nothing but outrage from educators. No leaders in politics in power telling him he is wrong.

If the president does not approve of this new idea of Arne's that problems of special education will be solved by harder curriculum and more testing, then he should say so. If he is silent then it must be assumed he is either unaware of it or he agrees.

It is a dangerous and harmful policy.

Arne Duncan Proposes New Accountability for Special Education by Diane Ravitch.

Duncan actually said the following: “We know that when students with disabilities are held to high expectations and have access to a robust curriculum, they excel.”

Really? Guess he doesn’t know that not all special needs will disappear with the right curriculum, standards, and testing. Guess he subscribes to the same thinking as school administrators who believe kids will outgrow their learning disabilities and differences, thereby requiring fewer support services as they mature. That’s one way to justify cutbacks in the services they need and the special educators and therapists who administer them.

Yes, we should have high expectations for children with special needs. But access to a “robust curriculum” is not the answer. Nor is testing them. Nor is threatening their teachers and schools in the same manner as Duncan’s approach to general education.


There is more about it in the Washington Post.

Obama expands use of standardized tests for special-needs and American Indian students



The president and his education secretary, Arne Duncan, have for years been using student standardized test scores to hold students, teachers and principals “accountable” even though assessment experts say they aren’t reliable enough to be used for that purpose. Assessment experts say that tests should be used only for the purpose for which they were designed and nothing else, yet the administration keeps finding additional ways to use standardized test results in ways that are questionable.

Earlier this week, Duncan announced that the administration was tightening its oversight of states in regard to how they educate special-needs students, applying more stringent criteria. From now on, the department will not only consider whether proper procedures are being conducted but on outcomes, including how well these students score on standardized tests and the achievement gap, based on test scores, between students with and without disabilities.

How well special education students perform on a test called the National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP, will be one of the factors considered. This marks the first time that NAEP scores have been attached to any education policy that has potential consequences; the Education Department could withhold federal funds to states that don’t comply with the new special education regulations, though officials there said that is not something they want to do. But NAEP, a test given every two years to a nationally representative sampling of students, wasn’t designed for this purpose. When asked by reporters about whether using NAEP for this purpose was turning it into a high-stakes test, Duncan said, “I wouldn’t call it high stakes.” He said his department was using NAEP because, however “imperfect,” it was the “only accurate measurement we have.”


One of the latest twitter pics says it more clearly than I ever could.


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Reply Obama needs to call Arne Duncan out for his new tactics for special education students. (Original post)
madfloridian Jun 2014 OP
historylovr Jun 2014 #1
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Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2014 #80
DhhD Jun 2014 #23
madfloridian Jun 2014 #36
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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:56 AM

1. K & R

This man really needs to go.

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Response to historylovr (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:31 PM

22. Yes, he does.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:31 PM

80. If he knows about education he would know that students do have IEPs

I guess he expects a student with intellectual disabilities to learn calculus?

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Response to historylovr (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:34 PM

23. Agreed. Next we will be hearing that with the right therapy and treatment, people with mild,

moderate and severe developmental disabilities will heal themselves.

Common Core and Testing are not a cure for Autism. I think Autism disability is what is driving these statements. Autism has been increasing lately. Apparently Duncan can not get the Psychology Community to change the degree of diagnosis in manual IV. So he is using the ARD Committee approach. There is nothing said about an ARD Committee so I beleive they are hidding the truth.

I believe that in the past people with intellectual and mental disabilities usually ended up on the streets or in prison. Then they went to live in neighborhood housing with house supervisors. Now, it seems that under the new Duncan Plan, people with disabilities will be tested and found to be able to be be Dismissed, by an ARD Committee, and could end up incarcerated instead of receiving Medicare and Social Security Benefits. This would be a new kind of Peonage. Common core is not an Alternative Education Plan. It is for the General Education population. Do private Autism therapy facilities use Common Core? No of course not. What a joke (Duncan is).

ARD-Admission, Review, and Dismissal Committee creates an Independent Education Plan. Is Duncan planning on using testing to move people with intellectual disabilities in to incarceration as a prison workforce after testing them out of high school and into a society that they can not handle due to their disabilities? Scary.

http://www.cfisd.net/index.php/en/parents-students/academics/special-education/admission-review-and-dismissal-ard-process/

On down in the link is information from the Texas Education Agency about the ARD process.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:23 PM

36. Thanks for your comments. The ARD sounds like a more advanced form of what we called

staffings. Those meetings were some of the hardest most painful moments I had as a teacher. Too many of the parents did not want to hear what was going to be said about their kid, but it was such a high level of county folks that many parents lashed out because they felt intimidated.

Heck, as a teacher I often felt intimidated at staffings.

Heading to read more of your link now. You make some very good points in your post.

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Response to historylovr (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:16 PM

33. Arne needs to be booted out, not just called out

 

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Response to historylovr (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 03:02 PM

39. Clueless

Arne Duncan was CEO of the Chicago Public Schools. He's into Charter Schools and not public schools.
He has NO education background.
It's like Goldman Sachs making me a teacher, it's CEO and running the the place!
He's got the education job, because he's the Presidents basketball buddy!

I too substitute in special education classes, he's nuts if he thinks these children can handle a rigorous curriculum.
Most of these students are learning life skills!
He should spend ONE day in a special needs room, to get his reality check.
It's a disgrace that people are appointed to positions in government, totally UNQUALIFIED and they get to make decisions for the rest of us.
Duncan should be kicked out of office!

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Response to markmyword (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:23 PM

71. Here! Here! n/t

 

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Response to historylovr (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:15 AM

127. Arne Duncan Needs to Go...

The goal of Arne Duncan is to destroy public education. My teacher friends will tell you.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:57 AM

2. As one who has worked with special needs student I can only say

this man is a fucking idiot asshole.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:26 PM

9. ....



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Response to madfloridian (Reply #9)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:56 PM

38. Yes! Applause and much appreciation for madfloridian and Diane Ravitch - both are heroes.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:57 AM

3. We discussed this a bit

in socialist progressives too. This guy makes my skin crawl. So patently obvious that they want to break the unions and smash public education. Soon we will have minimum wage proctors in rooms w/TV or computer screens doing the "teaching" in public schools. They don't want motivated smart folks in this country - they only need the top 5-10% at most to send their kids to private schools to churn out new managers. Everyone else works for pennies in the new "service industry" or the old fallback - military.

It is absolutely disgusting.

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Response to TBF (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:39 PM

28. The final results won't be pretty.

But the resulting citizenry will be easy to control through misinformation. We are witnessing a little sample of it already.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:59 AM

4. DURec

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:04 PM

5. Presumably, his boss has no say in what Arne does.

 

Or, he just needs more time. Or, he's still trying to locate his comfortable walking shoes.

Or, he agrees with Arne.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:28 PM

10. Agree completely

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:02 PM

13. Since we're 6 years in and Arne hasn't been fired yet, I am going to assume that the president

 

agrees with his policies and his anti-teacher pronuoncements

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:36 PM

27. No question about it.

On education and other issues.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 03:56 PM

40. oo oo, remember "Cabinet of Rivals"?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:20 PM

19. It takes time to turn a big ship around!!!

Remember that one?

Ah, memories.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:05 PM

6. Why on earth would you think he would do that?


I am baffled by the constant drive here at DU to pretend that Obama has not chosen this man and his policies....or any of his other corporate appointees, for that matter.

Why the constant, bizarre implication that he is being overruled at every turn?


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Response to woo me with science (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:24 PM

7. Sadly, I think Pres Obama has given Arne a free hand to do what he wants. As an

aside---during Hillary's primary--she said a few times that she would scrape NCLB--and start over! If she runs I hope she does just that!


I do not recall what she proposed anymore. Seems so long ago.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:25 PM

8. That is the point I was trying to make.

Of course this is Obama's policy. Otherwise he would be openly criticizing this idiotic, stupid, dangerous new idea of Arne's.

I just figured people knew how I felt about it. Never assume.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:45 PM

73. I know, mad. I really do.

I guess I was just surprised to see that headline coming from you, because the wording did sound like so many of the apologists who try to pretend that Obama opposes all of his most malignant policies and needs merely to rein in a few rogue actors in his administration.

I know you get it. You write more eloquently about it than most.

I consider the constant apologism ( not from you, but from the 24/7 propaganda brigade) to be extremely malignant and believe in strong pushback to any wording that suggests, even ironically or implicitly, that this garbage isn't coming directly from the top.

There is no way any of this crony corporatism ever gets solved if we aren't clear about what we're really dealing with here, which is broad corruption of our party, our elections, and our government by monied interests, up to and including the current Democratic White House. Sorry for the sharpness of my words in reacting to just these particular words and not to the clear and consistent body of your contributions here.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:18 PM

34. Denial is more than a river in Egypt

 

It's the national, American disease.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:59 PM

86. fingers in ears, stamping their feet

they're pathetic

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:43 PM

11. That'll never happen, he can't even find his comfortable shoes.

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Response to bahrbearian (Reply #11)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:01 PM

91. ....

I wish he would find them. Unions need his support badly.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:51 PM

12. What a complete idiot that man is.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:05 PM

14. You forget who hired him and keeps him employed

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Response to Fearless (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:35 PM

25. Shhhhhh! We're not supposed to talk about that! n/t

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:09 PM

15. Recommend............

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:13 PM

16. I'm a parent of a child with autism and I disagree.

 

I see too many kids in his school marginalized into self contained classrooms where expectations are nonexistent.

Early on, my wife and I decided that getting him successful in the general ed classroom was important to his future success, and I'm glad we did.

Setting aside the issue of high stakes testing, I think that expecting academic progress for all students, even those with significant disabilities, isn't too much to ask.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:20 PM

20. I agree that sometimes the placement of a

particular child misses the mark. It's so important that parents are involved in the IEP process and that each child is placed in the most appropriate setting to meet his or her needs. Special ed is definitely not one size fits all.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:23 PM

21. Of COURSE there should be expectations. Certainly. For sure.

Where did I give the impression there should not be.

Before I explain, please read the OP again and tell me if you really believe that it is what I meant.

Arne is offering that as a solution, just as he is sacrificing teachers as a solution.

He is in effect saying that with a harder curriculum and more testing special education students will excel. That means that on many students he will be placing unrealistic goals. There are expectations that are reasonable, and there are unreasonable goals that some simply can not reach. Even if they try very hard.



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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:36 PM

26. there is no correlation between expecting academic progress and high stakes testing nt

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:14 PM

17. As a substitute teacher who is frequently assigned to

be an aide to a special needs child, I would respectfully suggest that Duncan trade places with special ed teachers and aides for a week or a month. He'd change his tune in a hurry if he tried to foist his robust curriculum on the children I've worked with. Just what a non-verbal autistic child (for example) needs -greater academic rigor. Clueless, truly.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:15 PM

18. Do they think that my grandson, who has Downs Syndrome will grow out of it?

He starts Pre-K this Fall and my daughter has done everything from speech therapy, physical therapy, and working with him herself. She was a Second Grade teacher until they realized it was cheaper for her NOT TO WORK and pay babysitters, not to mention better for him and her other two kids.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:44 PM

30. Arne's words indicate he really thinks they will excel.

So much is packed into these few words of his. It is hard to hear it from a Secretary of Education, and even worse to think he is getting away with it.

Reasonable demands and expectations are good. Arne seems to be going overboard.

Duncan actually said the following: “We know that when students with disabilities are held to high expectations and have access to a robust curriculum, they excel.”


The additional testing will put hardships on the student but also very much so on the parents.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:00 PM

41. Do you think a person with Down's Syndrome is unteachable?

 

Of course not.
Therefore, just as with other students, high expectations and a strong curriculum are an essential part of any student's education.
I haven't heard anyone say that this means students with mental disabilities will have to meet the same academic expectations as students without mental disabilities.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:49 PM

45. You know what? You are really making up stuff that is not even implied in the OP or in anything...

I have ever said.

There is no point in arguing, because my OP was clear.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:03 PM

49. Then you must mean that

 

When a teacher holds his or her students to high expectations and uses a good curriculum then students, including students with disabilities, can excel.
It appears that where you disagree is whether schools currently hold students to high expectations and use a good curriculum.
Evidence indicates that the U.S. school system has lower expectations than other systems.
As Jaime Escalante showed, a student will rise to the reasonable expectations of his or her teacher.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:08 PM

50. No I do not mean that. I did not say that. I did not even imply that.

I don't think you even read the OP or visited the links. You have done this before when I posted about education in a thoughtful and honest way.

There are several others who do so as well.

This kind of thing is one reason that some of the more knowledgeable well-researched posters have just about quit posting here.

It just about ain't worth the effort. And it for sure is not really worth the amount of insults garnered by very clear posts.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #50)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:18 PM

55. Are you saying, then, that high expectations and a good curriculum are unnecessary?

 

Of course, a competent teacher knows that high expectations and a curriculum are necessary.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:22 PM

57. No, I did not say that.

Now you are just making stuff up.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #57)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:46 PM

84. That's the thing. I am beginning to wonder if you know what you are saying

 

The things that you that upset you about CC are not occurring, for the most part, and your responses to anyone who challenges the implications of your statements is to redirect and redirect rather than defend what you are saying.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #84)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:53 PM

97. The OP's last thread on this hit a FAIL.....

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025157462#post23

So its been reposted.....sadly...

To the jury.....it is not against the TOS to reference past threads...the admin has given a helpful search box for that purpose.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:52 PM

67. Each new IEP is set at a higher than the previous expectation and curriculum objectives. IEP

is designed to advance and promote the cognitive, psychomotor, affective and social and behavioral skills of the individual that is the learner. Its objectives change when the child has mastered the objectives set fourth in the IEP-Independent Education Plan. And during the time forward, an educator or therapist is allowed Promising Practices to see if slight changes in delivery can provide mastery more quickly or in a better way. And then a better IEP is always forthcoming at the next ARD Meeting which could be held every 30 days if the school or parents sees the need. Ususally the ARD Committee meets once a school year. In Texas a Special Progress Report has to be sent home every 3 weeks for children receiving rehabilitation and/or modifications.

See the Public Record/Law about IDEA for greater detail.
IDEA-Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #67)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:42 PM

83. Sounds right to me

 

Thanks

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:54 PM

68. When I taught Down Syndrome kids in 2010 , I had to teach them Algebra if they were HS age.

 

Because the CCSS in NYS, which was being phased in that year, prescribed Algebra for "ALL" students in 10th grade.

So if the student was 16 y.o. , but hadn't yet learned how to count change to... say... .50 cents, the teacher was REQUIRED to teach that skill *Algebraically*.

In other words, instead of using varied means of training that particular skill as we had done successfully for decades, , we'd be rated "ineffective" if we didn't teach it; ".10+.10+.!0+10=X= .50. Solve for X."

Really, Android, does that make ANY kind of sense to *You*?

>>>I haven't heard anyone say that this means students with mental disabilities will have to meet the same academic expectations as students without mental disabilities.>>>


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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:25 PM

78. I have also taught math to kids with Downs

 

That was my first certification. I've also taught the class, Mathematics For Elementary School Educators, to college students working towards their certification.

A math teacher can teach algebra to students of almost any age and capability. If the state required this (and I would love to see actual proof that the state was forcing teachers to teach the Fibonacci sequence to students with Down's Syndrome) a math teacher can still teach appropriate algebraic concepts based on the cognitive development of the student.

The state didn't make you teach the conic sections (parabola, hyperbole, circles, ellipses) to these special needs students. That would prompt a lawsuit so fast it would make a district's head spin. But you can teach more basic algebraic concepts, such as the concept of a symbol taking the place of a number, along with the fundamentals.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #78)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 08:34 PM

89. I can't speak for New York

but NC does require that even our OCS students take a full algebra 1 course with the full EOC at the end of it. It does include sequences it should be noted.

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Response to dsc (Reply #89)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:18 PM

116. I've taught the geometry version of that class

 

There was no state EOC, but I always gave a final which is more difficult than what the state typically creates. Just like in other classes, some of the occupational students did well on the final, some poorly, and some in the middle. That's what evaluations are for.

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:06 PM

92. My son with autism got a "C+" in algebra this year.

 

I'm not impressed by the low expectations I'm hearing.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #92)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:56 PM

108. Yes, because all special needs kids are just like your son

I have a child with autism as well. He's high functioning and he will probably be able to handle at least basic algebra. Those of us who are lucky to say that shouldn't insist this applies to all children regardless of ability.

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Response to kcr (Reply #108)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:17 AM

128. Some are.

 

But none who are sequestered in a special ed classroom in which no one is accountable - or if the posts in this thread are any indication - even inclined, to "pressure" or "demand" that they do their best.

What's important, apparently, is to keep them quiet and contained until they turn 18 and become someone else's problem.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #128)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:03 PM

150. I'm not advocating sequestering kids in special ed classrooms

Special education has already changed to mainstreaming. They aren't sequestered like that anymore. That's not what's being talked about.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #92)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:53 AM

129. How old is your son and... if you know it... what's his IQ? n/t

 

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:02 AM

130. 15 and I have no idea. n/t

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #130)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:42 AM

131. It's important to know.

 

Autistic kids... as you *probably* know... vary widely in terms of their measurable learning "potential". ( Down Syndrome kids... by contrast, for example....not so much.)

Some autistic kids cannot speak. Some cannot point to the numeral 5 when asked to select it from a menu of 3, 4, and 5. Some cannot recognize their name on a piece of paper. Some... in fact, MANY.... even at age 15, 16, 17 and 18 cannot make change from a dollar or tell time. They do not understand concepts like "change", "price", "elapsed time", "salary" "deductions" "taxes". They cannot read or make use of the most simplified printed schedule.

Yet others are intellectually normal. ( i.e. test in the "average", i.e. 80-120) range and can easily do all of these things. These cases are rare in my professional experience ; but that's one person's experience teaching special ed over thirty years. They do in fact exist.

Let's say for argument's sake that you are the parent of an 18 year old autistic child who is unable to tell time and count money to the degree that he is unable to function independently as a young adult. Remember: the educational "clock" is ticking. He still struggles with fundamental, first-second grade math concepts but will age-out soon.

Those are the basic facts. So: how do you want his classroom teacher to apportion the limited ( and rapidly diminishing) instructional time relative to your child: teaching "algebra"? ( presumably w. the goal of.... what? Getting him ready for Trig?) Or do you want the teacher working on ways to getting your child to adapt his early elementary school-level math skills to real-life everyday situations that he will (very soon) encounter in the adult world?

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #131)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:53 AM

146. No, I'm saying that in the special ed classroom, there's little incentive for progress.

 

Particularly at the secondary school level. Self contained classrooms are under-staffed and 90% of that effort is dedicated to managing the behaviors of the highest needs child in the room.

If administrators were accountable for demonstrating progress among each IEP student, the classrooms would be better staffed, and more of the students would be involved in general ed classes.

And students *will* become young adults, the question is how prepared they're going to be. In my professional life at a nonprofit dedicated to the needs of people with disabilities, I often see young adults enter the adult systems ill-equipped yet capable of learning. I see job coaches doing great work finding gainful employment for people and often teaching the individuals things that one would expect to have been learned in school.

I see a wide difference in the effectiveness of the special ed programs between the various school districts in my community, and the quality of the general ed program isn't a useful proxy; the schools with the highest test scores have some of the worst special ed programs.

Or do you want the teacher working on ways to getting your child to adapt his early elementary school-level math skills to real-life everyday situations that he will (very soon) encounter in the adult world?


If that is my child's capacity for learning, yes. But in my experience, the self contained classroom curriculum is designed for the least capable learner in the room. Most of the kids in the class learned how to tell time long ago, but they're content to perseverate about video games while avoiding any particular demands or expectations.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #146)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 08:49 AM

178. OK. But I was originally referencing specifically kids w. Down Syndrome:

 

>>>>The average IQ of a young adult with Down syndrome is 50, equivalent to the mental age of an 8 or 9 year old child, but this varies widely.[3]>>>> wiki

(And actually, I disagree w. wiki: I don't think it "varies widely"; not in my experience, anyway.)


That's clearly not your child. I think OP is talking about this ( i.e. the ABOVE) type of situation, as well:

>>Or do you want the teacher working on ways to getting your child to adapt his early elementary school-level math skills to real-life everyday situations that he will (very soon) encounter in the adult world?>>>>

...and the interference in that delicate calculation that is coming from the Obama-era DOE.... awash in "compliance culture" and fueled by an utter lack of familiarity w. the phenomenon that they're trying to "reform".

All that said: I agree that for kids, whom... in the "old days" .... we used to call "LD", or "borderline", (there was even a category back in the eighties called "Minimal Brain Dysfunction". No one knew what it meant but the terminology sure sounded impressive.) or .... whatever......(in other words, "more-or-less average intelligence but unable to to do schoolwork well enough to keep up w. their age-mates." a self-contained classroom could well be a trap.

One of the things I was hassling my own son's ( *private*; it's a long story) special ed high school was to HAVE him standardized-tested once a year SO THAT I COULD DETERMINE IF HE WAS MAKING PROGRESS relative to his peers. (really the only justification for these tests; but a particularly GOOD one.)

Part of the problem... in addition to the fact that the whole field is now dominated by ( and made incoherent by) lawyers and/or politicians..... is that there is no common language. "Special Ed" doesn't mean what it used to mean. It means ALL sorts of things. In the 1980s... when I started... I doubt very strongly that your son ... based on what you've described ... would even be considered "Special Ed". (Probably not "autistic" either...for that matter.... although you haven't told me enough about him for me to say, and that's a whole " 'nother " story.)

"Some cozy night in front of the fire."

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #178)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:53 AM

181. I recently attended a disabilities conference.

 

One of the more sobering statistics was that among developmental disabilities, autism is the diagnosis most likely to preclude independent life. Something like 50% of all people with DD/ID live independently and have jobs, while only 25% of adults with autism do.

All of the adults I know with downs syndrome have gainful employment and about half live independently.

We're digressing a bit, but the point I want to make about IQ and people with disabilities is that it isn't a strong determinant of grownup success; social capital is.


Among the reasons that I dislike self contained classrooms is that they preclude kids from developing the social capital that we need to succeed in life.

It's not enough that parents know the results of their child's standardized test, the administrators need to know and take action to improve lesson retention.

And no. My son is autistic and it's immediately apparent to anyone familiar with the disorder. The reason he is successful in school is:
1) he's motivated to stay out of "the learning center" (a great example of Orwellian double speak)
2) he does all of his math and most of his english schoolwork at home in the evenings.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:34 PM

24. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 01:42 PM

29. I have absolutely no idea....

... what PO sees in Arne Duncan. Talk about edicts. How could Arne Duncan have ever seen these children being educated and made a decision like that? One thing you DON'T do is push these children to do more than they can comprehend. Isn't there a danger of them shutting down? Becoming stifled with themselves for not being able to understand or catch on as quickly as they are being pressured to?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:15 PM

32. It must be painful to hear for those who work with special ed, and for parents of students

with special needs. It is so frustrating to see the policy of pushing kids harder and harder, the one size fits all mentality spreading to those kids.

No teacher should be required to treat all students alike, and most especially not special education students.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:05 PM

42. You are spreading misinformation again

 

My kid has special needs. I am glad a school will hold my son responsible for his education.
Where does it say a teacher must teach all students alike?
No where.
You are implying that the government is going to demand that kids with disabilities must meat the same expectations as other students.
This is untrue.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:22 PM

58. You, your son, the teacher all are responsible for his education. What are his needs, what will make

his future the best it can be? Will he be preparing for college? possibly a trade school? Maybe a group home? Will he be able to live on his own with home support? Perhaps he will need 24/7 supervision, and living with his family is the only option. Or perhaps living at home will not be an option, and he will need an institution of some type.

I do not know your son, or what his optimum future will be. Whatever lays the foundation for his future should be his curriculum. That can be everything from learning social skills, contributing to a household, learning to use public transportation, learning community safety, learning to shop, learning proper hygiene, learning upper level math (possible learning disability).

Currently many students with special needs are given the same "high stakes" exam given to all gen. ed. students. Accommodations of more time, more breaks, quieter environment, larger desk areas, etc. are given. But all the time and space in the world will not make a difference if the student does not have the ability. It is cruel and unjust to administer this test.

Does Arne plan on doing something different with this new assessment approach? How will Common Core help these students? Are students with special needs not already measured for progress on the objectives and goals that are set for them. Goals that are developed between parents and specialists within the school system?, with reports given to families incrementally throughout the school year.

The whole, special child needs to considered.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #58)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:34 PM

63. of course

 

I'm with you up until paragraphs 3 and 4.

A "high stakes test" is a misnomer in this situation. I am not seeing any evidence that this testing will be the deciding factor on whether a disabled student graduates or advances a grade.

Regarding Common Core, there is little evidence that the CC curriculum is any better or worse than the existing curriculum when it comes to teaching a disabled student.

The main problem seems to be fear on the part of parents, a marketing disconnect that Republicans have engineered to create strife of CC, and fear mongering on the part of certain posters here.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:38 PM

64. I am wondering how long you can throw accusations at me without people noticing....

and wondering where you are getting all that. Your latest refers to fear mongering.

Are you not aware of the pressure that goes on in this testing with so many consequences for all?

Children know, and they worry about it.

There should be fear on the part of parents about Arne's policies. No Republicans are not causing the disconnect any more than teachers and parents of both parties.

Left and right join on this issue.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #64)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:30 PM

79. I'm sorry, madfloridian, but your are speaking nonsense

 

I cannot fathom what is motivating you to speak so incorrectly about these topics, but I have consistently observed you promoting nonsense when it comes to Common Core, and pedagogy in general.
For example, your dismissal of challenging a student with a good curriculum. Anyone who has taken the initial courses for teaching certification or attended teaching workshops as a professional knows the need for this.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #79)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:38 PM

82. You know what? Whatever you say.

You are not getting all that from my post I know.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #82)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:44 PM

104. I noticed...

Might as well debate an algorithm...

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Response to Fairgo (Reply #104)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:52 PM

106. ....

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #79)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 08:27 PM

88. A nasty and ridiculous post that underscores your lack of argument here.

"your dismissal of challenging a student with a good curriculum"


Nowhere, anywhere, did madfloridian ever 'dismiss challenging a student with a good curriculum.' This is some slick smear you are engaging in here, putting words into people's mouths and attempting to attribute views that were nowhere expressed. It is a tactic used by those who cannot defend their own positions honestly.

Your demands for "proof" of the malignancy of high-stakes testing throughout this thread are similarly disingenuous. Anyone who has followed the right-wing debacle that has been Bush's and now Obama's education policies already is aware of how testing has been systematically introduced into schools and then used as justification to increase corporate involvement or to label schools as underperforming so that they can then be handed over to corporate profitmongers to "fix" them.

The real agenda here is as clear and consistent as the record of this administration on education: a steady, relentless march toward privatization and corporatization of schools. It is in that respect entirely consistent with the overall corporate direction of this administration in virtually every policy area important to the One Percent.

The corporatists who have hijacked government in this country, and who have already gutted our middle class and driven millions into poverty, have been very successful up 'til now in propagandizing each issue separately so that people won't see the overarching theme, which is the sale/privatization/corporatization/monetization of every possible revenue stream, every need and aspect of life in this country, and distortion of human citizens into sources of profit for the corporate elite. It's easy to be fooled by seemingly earnest talk of "high standards" if you don't see the larger motive and patterns.

A lot of people can see first-hand the malignancy of high stakes testing in their own children's experience. What they now are beginning to recognize, as well, is the larger goal....the common theme here: to capture this huge, permanent market for profiteering....just as other basic human needs, like the need for health care, are being captured and profitized.


Education: The "Big Enchilada"
http://www.billtotten.blogspot.com/2007/08/big-enchilada.html

Some years ago, a friend who works on Wall Street handed me a stock-market prospectus in which a group of analysts at an investment-banking firm known as Montgomery Securities described the financial benefits to be derived from privatizing our public schools. "The education industry", according to these analysts, "represents, in our opinion, the final frontier of a number of sectors once under public control" that "have either voluntarily opened" or, they note in pointed terms, have "been forced" to open up to private enterprise.

Indeed, they write, "the education industry represents the largest market opportunity" since health-care services were privatized during the 1970s... "The larger developing opportunity is in the K-12 EMO market, led by private elementary school providers..." From the point of view of private profit, one of these analysts enthusiastically observes, "the K-12 market is the Big Enchilada."



The propaganda deliberately ignores the ample recent history of these patterns, absurdly claiming that each new demand for testing is uniquely necessary for "accountability" and absurdly pretending that we don't have ample recent evidence of their *actual* effects on children, schools, and the bank accounts of politicians and corporate profiteers.

It doesn't fly anymore...particularly when it's attempted using the familiar rhetorical distortions and attempts to discredit and smear that you just demonstrated in your post above.



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Response to woo me with science (Reply #88)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:12 PM

114. Now it's a wierd strawman

 

I'm starting to tire, but I'll drop one more set of notes...

Okay, here goes.
I never did as you are describing. "Your demands for "proof" of the malignancy of high-stakes testing throughout this thread are similarly disingenuous."

I never demanded proof about some sort of malignancy. I wanted proof that CC would result in a cut in services for handicapped students or force them to achieve the same proficiency in academics.

I think, the way the government appears to be using academic testing as a measure of the success or failure of a teacher, is unscientific.

It sounds obnoxious, but I think you received misinformation about what I have been writing, or you are taking something I wrote out of context.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:09 AM

142. You love that word "wierd" & used it in several posts, & a great adjective to dismiss something

without addressing it. Weird - that's just weird....

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #142)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:06 PM

151. It is a great adjective

 

Though the reason I dismiss some postings using that particular adjective is because the recipient declines to address the issues of the topic and the reasons they are declining to address the issue is unfathomable.

My suspicion is that their egos are too fragile to accept being incorrect, and the only defense they have is to flail around spouting provocative responses and cry out about being a helpless victim in order to distract people from the fact that they are, you know, misinformed.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #151)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:08 PM

160. Yes, weird is a great adjective...especially when it is spelled right.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:47 PM

65. Current testing does not decide the academic future of the student - it just determines the school's

ranking of achievement. Your statement: "I am not seeing any evidence that this testing will be the deciding factor on whether a disabled student graduates or advances a grade." Currently all students including children with IEP's advance automatically regardless of testing outcome. I doubt that this aspect of "high stakes" testing will change.

Your statement: "Regarding Common Core, there is little evidence that the CC curriculum is any better or worse than the existing curriculum when it comes to teaching a disabled student." Are you at all familiar with what the curriculum for a medically fragile, low functioning student should be? How about a child that may some day be able to live independently? What do you suspect that child's needs are? What and how should that student be learning to make his/her future the best it can be for him/her and their family?

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #65)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:14 PM

69. The only repercussions if a student decides to tank a test is to the school & teacher. A student can

"get back" at a teacher or school by simply performing poorly on this "high stakes" exam. That is a scary position to be in. The student's outcome does not affect his academic future.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:51 PM

105. Weaponized testing

Whatever the cover story, this is not about enriching the lives of children...with or without learning disabilities.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #65)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:37 PM

81. As a matter of fact, I am familiar with that sort of curriculum

 

I've worked with IEPs, meaningful assessment and the trajectory of the individual's education for many many years.

The needs of the child and the capabilities of the resources available will determine how educators will respond to the academic progress of a special needs student.

You demand I address the needs of some hypothetical special ed child, as if there is some way to do that. If you've ever been in the special ed classroom, you know that the amazing instructors there will juggle umpteen different teaching methods in order to accomodate the practice and curriculum. The problem is that your hypothesis is based on the mistaken assumption that the federal government is removing support for special needs students and holding them accountable to the same level of academic standards.

There is no evidence this is occurring, hence the misleading nature of the OP.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:53 PM

85. Holy Smoke, where do I begin? 1st I don't demand anything from you. 2nd "some hypothetical

special ed child" is sort of demeaning. Those children have names & there are many of them in every school district: seizure disorder, shunts, heart problems, etc. 3rd - you state: "The problem is that your hypothesis is based on the mistaken assumption that the federal government is removing support for special needs students and holding them accountable to the same level of academic standards." that is not my hypothesis!!! Where'd you get that from??!? It's difficult for me to keep reiterating my thoughts to you. I agree with Madfloridian - I think you are just making things up.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #85)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:05 PM

112. Redirect-redirect

 

It's not about whether "special ed child" is demeaning. That's just weird.
If you are not making the assumption as I outlined above, then you have no reason to complain about these particular aspects of Common Core. Sounds like you and I do not have an argument.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #112)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:44 AM

140. It is demeaning. The child should be seen as a child 1st - not "some special ed child" your words

When you start seeing and referring to the disability first, the child often becomes secondary. What aspects of common core will enrich and make better the IEP process?

please see my post #138 in reference to the current IEP process.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #140)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:59 AM

148. CC and IEPs are unrelated in this context

 

There hasn't been any evidence that CC will have an affect on the IEP process, either positively or negatively.

As far as your role as the language police officer, I would gently suggest that you should take a deep breath, stop looking for insults where I intended none, and cease playing a weak prejudice card in order to garner sympathy points and redirect the conversation.

If you recognize your displeasure is unjustified regarding the actual topic of whether CC is going to harm special ed students, then move on.

As a parent of a special needs son, I most certainly want my school to present my child with high expectations and a strong curriculum.

Every competent teacher and parent wants that.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #85)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 05:18 AM

132. ......

I understand your frustration. Your posts are very welcome....show clarity of thought and understanding about children.

So thanks.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #81)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:33 AM

135. Do you know what the word "Standardized" means, as in "Standardized Testing"?

 

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:14 PM

70. Are you aware that Testing is what a Charter School group of Profiteers uses to take down public

education and remove a special needs student from its classrooms? I am not providing a link or links because that is something that I think parents need to look into for themselves.

I will say that tests results are an excuse for a Legislature to remove funding to its public schools, making programs of enrichment for advance learners and for special needs learners, disappear. Ask some professors at Colleges of Education at any university, to find out how children with special needs will be left out. Do private or charter schools, not receiving federal funds have to accept your child?

If you do not mind, place Dallas IDS Home-Rule Leaving Student and Parents Behind, in your browser and click. Hope this helps.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #70)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:25 PM

117. I was wondering about Dallas home rule. I am going to follow your link.

My son there asked me what I thought was behind it, so I need to do some research.

That is exactly what testing is meant to do. There is so much propaganda going on that parents don't know who to believe.

Thanks for your posts.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:13 PM

31. WHAT??? WHAT????? What part of special needs does he not understand???

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:21 PM

35. Misuse of testing

 

While I agree that high expectations and a robust curriculum helps all, including special ed students, the way Duncan proposes using standardized tests is unreasonable and unscientific.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 02:36 PM

37. Yes the President should call Duncan out,

Last edited Sat Jun 28, 2014, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

but his approach/thoughts on education are way out of line EXCEPT he and Michelle darn well know what GOOD education looks like, considering where they've had their daughters schooled over the years. Its his worst, imo.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:09 PM

43. Misleading OP

 

madfloridian is using select cuts-and-paste to imply that the federal government wants to force schools to teach students with disabilities in the same way and to the same expectations as other students.
This is untrue.
Read the dang article and use some critical thinking.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:14 PM

53. Wrong...again

 

The way you promote misinformation is troubling. If you taught, I certainly hope you didn't pull these sorts of shenanigans with your students.

The first link has nothing to do with holding a disable student to the same standard, but it does have to do with the state requiring proof as to why it should have a different standard for a particular student.

The second link takes us to an article describing how the government is misusing tests to evaluate teachers. The article presents zero evidence that the state is holding the handicapped student to the same standards as a non-handicapped student.

Using a test meant to evaluate a student's academic capabilities as a tool to evaluate a teacher's teaching capabilities is unscientific and unhelpful. But your OP conflates the good practice of using high expectations and a good curriculum with the bad practice of using a student evaluation to grade a teacher.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:21 PM

56. If I taught? Yes, I taught for many years. You think I am troubling in what I post? Accusation...

You have accused me of posting false information, and pulling stunts. I don't like it but I won't alert.

You said:

The way you promote misinformation is troubling. If you taught, I certainly hope you didn't pull these sorts of shenanigans with your students.


Both links show that the handicapped are held to the same standards on testing, which is wrong to do.

They have IEPs which should be followed.

I do not like your accusations, but I am not going to alert.

So go ahead if it helps you feel better.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #56)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:28 PM

119. Again, misinformation

 

"Both links show that the handicapped are held to the same standards on testing, which is wrong to do."
No. Both links reference blogs of unhappy people. They are not proof. You should find a primary source to justify your opinion. Do that, and I'll be right there with you, madfloridian.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:41 PM

120. I don't need you to agree with me.

In fact I notice you don't really agree with most here in this thread. I see someone else just threw their hands in the air in frustration with you.

So do your thing, don't worry about me. Got a thick hide, and I know my subject matter.

You are just pulling stuff out of the air tonight. Others have noticed it also.

Good night to you.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:56 PM

107. You've been around here since '06, but you don't know if mad taught. Odd.

No harm in being a low-post count member, but you posted 6 insulting posts and 4 badgering posts on this one o.p. Why the sudden deviation from your standard m.o.?

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:31 PM

72. Substituting Common Core for an IEP is what Duncan is trying to change. Profiteers like Mitt

Romney told America during the Presidential Debates that the GOP wanted to cash out IDEA. This means removing IEPs. Duncan, a proven privatizer, wants to remove IEP and move your child to Common Core. I will not provide links. Please look into this and get back with me on this thread.

Many children are being diagnosed with Autism. Can you imagine how many children would be moving to Section 504 Accommodations and Special Education IEP modifications unless something is done? Moving to Common Core and off of Modifications written up on IEPs is exactly what Obama and Duncan are proposing.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:50 PM

74. You put that clearly.

Thanks.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:16 PM

75. Show me, please, evidence

 

"Substituting Common Core for an IEP is what Duncan is trying to change." I challenege you to find evidence of this.
One, CC is a curriculum and set of standards whereas an IEP is a plan for specific techniques that caregivers and the student should use to intervene on behalf of a child. Your concern makes no sense, in the way that substituting a recipe for fajitas for and actual chocolate cake makes no sense.

There is zero evidence that, under CC, schools must apply expectations equally across the board. Certainly there have been some issues, but these are problems of application, rather than theory.

You watch. If CC continues, educators at all levels will see to it that the curriculum and practice reflects appropriately on the capabilities of the child.

Again, there is no policy stating that disabled children must meet the same academic standards.

The OP is misleading you by implying the government is abandoning classroom modifications to accommodate students with special needs by falsely connecting two aspects of education (CC and the pragmatic goal of challenging all students) to create a sense of panic, fear and outrage.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:17 PM

76. IEP = Individualized Education Plan, which is developed between parents & group of specialists,

OT, Speech, PT, Adapted P.E., Psych, Teacher, Teacher of the Deaf / Hard of Hearing, Teacher of the Visually Impaired, or whoever needs to be involved, to meet the unique needs of the child with special needs. Assessment is done, present levels are determined, and placement/services are determined by a team of people. Can this be tied to Common Core for the best interests of the child - That might be a reach, and it might become a dog and pony show.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 08:59 PM

90. It's your assertion, it's incumbent upon you to provide links to back it up...

 

... or at least explain what you mean by "cash out IDEA"

I think you're talking about this. Which is by no means the worst idea for improving special education to come out of DC.

In principle, I think that US citizens have a reasonable expectation that all students should reach their potential, and that all students can make academic progress during their school career and that the only way to track that progress is by measuring it. Further, schools should be accountable for achieving those goals but have some flexibility in how they do so.

If that means allowing students with IEP's have the option of transferring to a school which can and will meet the educational needs dictated by their disability, so be it.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:15 PM

44. It is cruel to put demands & pressures on a child who does not have the ability to

participate in a particular curriculum. The most common result will be acting out and behavior disorders. It would be like forcing me to prepare for the World Cup, with no alternative offered. I simply do not have that ability. Many students with special needs can possibly live in group homes one day, or possibly on their own with at home support. Most are not preparing for college. Their curriculum needs to be specialized and individualized. I suspect that common core would not be in their best interest.

I proctored a "high stakes" assessment for students w/IEP's that were not opted out of the gen. ed. testing. It was very sad. One little girl was in tears because it was too difficult. I could tell she was humiliated. Another little boy filled in the bubbles beautifully, all wrong answers. All I could say was "if you have extra time go back and check your work." This all factored into the school's "high stakes" score. No wonder so many of the schools in this district do not welcome special education classrooms.

Arne needs to become familiar with the students, with the medically fragile, with the very low functioning students, with the sweet children who cannot be forced into a curriculum that will do them no favors.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:14 PM

52. Thank you. Very kind and sensitive post that truly shows understanding.

You make the point that these scores do factor into the school's grade. Others here have attacked me for saying that in other threads. The kids know these things, too. It worries them.

I watched my class the last two years before I retired, trying so hard to adapt to the "new" tests suddenly thrust upon them. I gave out Kleenex for the tears. It was a time in our area of out of control mainstreaming that did not really show wisdom it was so hurried.

Even with my test monitors, the tears flowed so that some parents had to be called to get their children.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #52)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:32 PM

62. Helping the special needs child towards his/her best possible future, w/their self esteem intact is

as important as anything.

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #44)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:22 PM

94. Every student has pressures and demands. That is as it should be.

 

The key is to make those demands developmentally appropriate.

I see nothing in the proposals which create high stakes consequences for students on an IEP to achieve some arbitrary level of performance, only a plan to track their progress.

It's no more cruel to teach a child with a disability how to tie their laces than it is a neurotypical child. It's just harder.

Schools would take a greater interest in Special Education classrooms if the principal and superintendent's job performance was judged by the academic progress and success demonstrated by the special education students.

I find this thread distressing and reinforces a stereotype I have of special education; the primary goal is to make the students comfortable, not to turn them into contributing adults.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #94)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:24 AM

138. These students do have a rigorous curriculum. Expectations/demands are made and tracked.

It's through their Individualized Education Program. The IEP is developed by a team of specialists (parents, speech, teacher, OT, etc.), depending on the needs of the child. Assessment is done in each area, present levels are determined, area of needs are determined, baseline performance is determined, from that objectives and goals are developed. If the team deems tying shoes is important, that might be one goal. Perhaps it can be using social stories for proper social interactions, or developing sentences, paragraphs, or narratives. Service delivery is determined, ie: how often the child will be receiving speech, OT, DHH services, or whatever it is deemed necessary. This is all determined by the IEP team. The IEP is pretty detailed as to the how, when, where, what, level of mastery, and it is a legal and living document. Any of the team members can call a mtg to propose changes to it. All team members sign the IEP and are held accountable for their part. Progress reports are sent home 4x's a year, and yearly IEP mtgs are held, in addition to parent conferences.

THESE STUDENTS DO HAVE A RIGOROUS CURRICULUM. Their providers are held accountable for the students progress. The students' goals/academic program are based on functional skills instruction and/or State standards and/or gen. ed. curriculum.

If tying IEP to common core benefits the child - great. If it interferes by requiring to the teacher to manufacture some sort of tie-in to create a dog and pony show to satisfy some political hack.....

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:01 PM

48. No, madfloridian is not making stuff up. No, not writing misleading stuff.

As much as some here accuse me of that all the time, it is not true.

Arne honestly believes that special needs children (he does NOT seem to differentiate between various levels of needs) will be better off if he simply makes school harder and gives them harder tests.

So no, I am not posting anything but the truth.

This is Obama's policy and Arne is fulfilling it. In fact it was Bush's policy, and Newt Gingrich's policy. Free market schools where the needs of the student are secondary.

So bring it on.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #48)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:22 PM

98. That post-er is a mere mosquito in the Taj Mahal.

Been around a long time, very low post count, but suddenly activates to post 9 rude things on one o.p. of yours.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #98)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:26 PM

99. Now a friend has joined that person.

What's so funny is that one is saying my last post on this was a failure, but I actually linked to it in the OP...first link. Goes to show they are even bothering to read the OP.

I should get used to it now that it's okay here now to pile on, but it's not easy to do.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #99)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:38 PM

102. Ignore them, they are clueless as to the topic and only want to disrupt.

 

Like you said, you've been here long enough - some people are just clueless about education the same way I am clueless about auto mechanics. Fortunately for me, I don't try and pretend to know something I don't.

Not so for your two 'friends' that seem totally clueless...best just ignore the white noise. I sure do.

You don't owe rude people any kind of reply.

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Response to Rex (Reply #102)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:40 PM

103. .....

I try.

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Response to Rex (Reply #102)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:06 PM

167. Yes....we with disabled children are "clueless." I mean....why would anyone take us into

 

account?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #99)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:10 PM

113. It may be small comfort,

but they really can't counter your info, their unfriendly attention proves your effectiveness, and they're transparently false to impartial observers.

So they're forced to make false accusations or 'accidentally' misunderstand what you've written. And I especially like 'droid's tactic of pretending he's a D.A. and has you on the stand as a hostile witness.

But look at all the good post-ers who weighed in to thank you. I hope that trumps the two lunkheads, in your estimation. Objective reality is on your side.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #113)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:14 PM

115. I am noticing that. It's much appreciated.

I notice some of them got a few bruises also.

But I read those voices, and they meant a lot. It shows people mostly get the harm being done to education right now.

If pile-ons are now allowed so easily here, we will have to step in and back each other up if we know we are right.

Thanks for the kind words.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #115)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:28 PM

118. You're getting the 'special treatment' because you're 'threateningly' effective.

That one post-er has been here since '06, and doesn't know if madfloridian ever taught students. That doesn't reflect well on the intellectual capabilities of the opposition team, here. I asked her\him about it, but they're too busy posting elsewhere on this o.p. to reply, I guess.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #118)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:45 PM

121. I know what they are doing. Just told me again that I posted misinformation.

Since I didn't I am not going to worry.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #121)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:51 AM

136. Thanks for the o.p., by the way.

The other side has nothing to add here, except for expressing ignorant (uninformed) opinions in an ignorant (rude) manner.

A large majority of participants here notice, judging by the reply rec ratio.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:09 PM

51. wow . . . just wow

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:17 PM

54. I've worked with developmentally challenged children ages 6 to 17.

Sometimes you and your student have had a "good day" when more than one page of an assignment has been completed and without long pauses.

More standardized tests for these kids? I don't think so . . . . .

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:25 PM

60. Exactly

 

Some days a high expectation is hoping a student makes it through the day without a seizure.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:24 PM

59. It gives you an idea how *little* either of them understands about *any* of it.

 

Last edited Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for the MORE plug, btw, Madflo.

I'm a co-founder. ( Along w. about 100 others.)

We're trying to replace the sell-out leadership of UFT/AFT.

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #59)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:28 PM

61. Good for you. Impressive group. Whew, I hope this post is worth the bruises I've gotten.

I am hurting all over from being accused of posting false stuff and so on.

I thought my post was clear, and the MORE graphic of Arne was priceless..

for the work of your group.

FL teachers are still too complacent, but then I guess I don't blame them. They now have zero job security and feel they must toe the line.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:51 PM

66. Doesn't seem that Duncan Donuts has EVER been a real teacher.

Instead, he has been a career administrator thanks to his friends in high places, from what i'm reading on wikipedia about him. The last Sec of Ed who was a teacher was Rod Paige from GW Bush's first term. The next president should nominate a Sec of Ed who has actual classroom experience.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:20 PM

77. AD knows. Of course, he knows. But he ALSO knows that there's $$$ to be made from selling

 

"a robust curriculum" and the attendant standardized tests to school districts.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #77)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 08:19 PM

87. Scary thought, but it might be the motivation behind his plan

- so sad

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:16 PM

93. He's never going to call him out.

 

Duncan is carrying out Obama's orders, otherwise he would have been fired.
Lets face it... Obama is cut from the same cloth as Rahn Emmanuel, Arne Duncan, and the rest of the DLC/Third Way crowd that wants to privatize govt functions to fatten corporate pockets.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #93)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:59 PM

110. I think you're right.

 

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:40 PM

95. Keep hoping. He never will if he hasn't by now.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #95)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:46 PM

122. I know.

He is loyal to him completely. Wishful thinking.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #122)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:56 PM

124. ...



With American public education's decline follows America's decline. Universities know it, too.

I feel an abiding sadness about their elitist betrayal of the last standing institution to provide a common democratizing and citizen building experience that this country has ever had.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:49 PM

96. So after your last thread on this hit a mighty FAIL...you start a new thread????

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025157462

I note this thread has even LESS information about the important reforms that the DOE is doing on behalf of SPED students, and I think that is a shame...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/states-special-education-services-face-tighter-oversight-by-the-obama-administration/2014/06/23/a103031e-fb36-11e3-b1f4-8e77c632c07b_story.html

As the mother of a disabled child, I am offended at the lack of information your posts provide. I cannot guess at the motive you have in not properly informing parents.


To The Jury...it is not against the TOS to provide links to prior threads....admin gave us a search box to do just that.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #96)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:47 PM

123. Um

That Post article reads like a rewrite of an agency press release. It contrasts Maryland's noncompliance and Virginia's compliance by listing one factor of presumed noncompliance by Maryland (exclusion of special needs students from testing) and no factors of Virginia's compliance. Further, the only information about "reforms" it lists are the option to withhold federal funds and forcing the states found noncompliance into some sort of "training" about that noncompliance. It's remarkably detail-free for a source presented as containing more information than that presented in the OP. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the quality of it because, honestly, it is the Washington Post.

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Response to MFrohike (Reply #123)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:59 PM

164. Thank you for emphasizing my point...that the OP discussed none of this at all, but instead relied

 

on blog posts that did not discuss compliance/non-compliance....there's a great deal to discuss here, without invective.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #164)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:46 PM

169. Yeah, that's not what I did

I pointed out that your source to rebut the OP's lack of detail is, itself, extremely light on the details. That should have been clear when I called it a rewrite of an agency press release. It's incomplete and incoherent.

tl;dr - Don't use the Post to make a point because it's a terrible paper.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:29 PM

100. It is like having an entire school board that hates the idea of education.

 

One of Obama's biggest mistakes was giving his old friend a job...the guy is less qualified than I am.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:38 PM

101. TN school head on conference call with Obama...SP Ed should take same test as all others.

http://nashvillepublicradio.org/blog/2014/06/22/kevin-huffman-supports-raising-bar-special-needs-students/

Actually from what I am hearing from teachers here in FL, that day seems to have arrived here. Checking it out more now.

Here is what Kevin Huffman said. He has worked closely with Michelle Rhee in TN to bring about reforms he wanted as former VP of TFA. (Is actually her ex-hubby).

Tennessee Education Commissioner Kevin Huffman is supporting a national effort to take a closer look at the education of students with disabilities.

In the past, states have just had to show that children are receiving an education. But now, they are being asked for test scores to prove the quality of that education.

Speaking on a conference call with U.S. Secretary of Education Arnie Duncan, Huffman acknowledged that Tennessee has not been providing an accurate picture of how special needs students perform.

“For us, when we look at students with disabilities, we see that the majority of those students are students who are perfectly capable of learning and doing better than they have been doing.”


There is a difference between believing in setting high standards and demanding as much from special needs students as from those who are not.

It really doesn't make sense. So much effort goes into the IEPs for special ed students, so much consulting and planning. It seems they are throwing all that out the window, just as they have done with grade books for teachers in regular classrooms.

Here are some instances of honor students being placed in remedial classes for not passing a high-stakes test.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3989542

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1924194

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:58 PM

109. No, my "last post" was not a FAIL...I linked to it in this OP. Was the link even read?

I would not link to a post of mine that was a failure. BTW what does make a post a failure?

Not a fail, just a bunch of pile-ons just like this post has.

Pretty soon people get tired of it and let the post drop from fatigue.

There's another way to go, but it's exhausting as well.

That way is just not to let the pilers-on get what they want.....which is to have the post drop.

Vicious circle.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #109)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:00 PM

111. 40 rec...but ya someone seems to be jelly of you!

 

Jealousy is an ugly trait in people.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 11:58 PM

125. Keep on posting, madfloridian, we need to get more people to understand this issue.

What a total corporate tool. If this keeps up the Democratic Party is going to loose two core groups, teachers and unions.

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Response to greatlaurel (Reply #125)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:07 AM

126. I agree on those 2 core groups.

I think there is going to be a problem. Teachers overall are angry and confused.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 07:47 AM

133. As the father of a special needs child, I'm appalled. Sadly, though, I'm not surprised. Duncan ...

 

... has done nothing worthwhile since the President inexplicably named him to this position. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that this is a betrayal of the support we gave him during the campaigns.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #133)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:18 AM

134. Appalled at what, specifically?

 

As far as I can tell, the things that are upsetting people aren't actually happening. The OP simply implied they are happening by conflating two different topics based on blog posts.

madfloridian won't produce actual data from primary sources. As a father of a special needs son and a former educator, this topic has interested me, but mf's take is the classic "much ado about nothin'".

So what has you appalled about this?

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #134)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:52 AM

137. I'm appalled at most everything Duncan has done. More testing for special needs kids? Another ...

 

... boondoggle designed to inflate the profits of the test owners while leading to privatization of our public schools.



http://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2012/05/30/jeb-bush-taking-florida-education-ideas-nationwide/

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Response to Scuba (Reply #137)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:50 AM

145. Your link doesn't address CC or special needs students

 

In your previous post, you said you were appalled, as the father of a special needs student, yet now you are unhappy because someone is going to make money.

Since the link has nothing to do with special needs students, I guess you must be appalled for some other reason (though it begs the question as to why you stepped into this discussion).

Now you are saying you dislike Jeb's reform measures because companies will profit from providing the materials. Are you suggesting that a company should lose money for providing the testing materials, or are you suggesting that evaluating a student's progress doesn't actually use any materials, or is your displeasure, with companies earning money for their work, related to something else?

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #145)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:54 AM

147. You can assume whatever you like. Duncan is bad for schools, kids and their parents.

 

And as I wrote, more testing of special needs kids will not help anyone except those who profit from testing services.

eod

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Response to Scuba (Reply #147)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:23 PM

152. Again, you are making assumptions

 

And still redirecting. Okay, so it's not about the special needs students or paying a company for their work. Apparently your concern is a belief that Common Core will bring in more testing.

Let's address that.

An increase in the number of tests is undetermined (after all, no one can truly see into the future), but probably will not happen based on a variety of observations.

Will new standards mean more testing?

Fact checking common core claims

Now, just in case you really are concerned about Common Core and the impact on special needs students, you might check this link. It shows there are valid concerns (and opportunities), but that the problem is an issue of administration rather than a fundamental flaw in the concept of common core.

What the Common Core Standards Mean for Special Education Students

My own opinion, formed from years of experience in the classroom and the available reliable sources of information, is that Common Core, like every other next-big-thing in education, probably will have little affect on academic performance at our public schools, just like all the ones that came before had little effect.

I've taught through at least three next-big-things in education, and they accomplished squat. The only thing I am hopeful about the Common Core is the push towards a national curriculum and national standards of academic performance. That could be beneficial. The rest of it is just the usual BS from administrators and politicians.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:36 AM

139. A billionaire reformer when Arne was chosen: The stars are now aligned.

http://www.susanohanian.org/outrage_fetch.php?id=704

The Broad Institute is one of those like Gates and Walton foundations who are taking over public education. Eli Broad trains superintendents who are then chosen to move in and take over school systems in a hostile manner.

One thing about Eli Broad: He can't resist gloating. Note this snippet from The Broad Foundation Annual Report 2009/2010: Entrepreneurship for The Public Good in Education, Science, and the Arts [sic]:


The election of President Barack Obama and his appointment of Arne Duncan, former CEO of Chicago Public Schools, as the U.S. secretary
of education, marked the pinnacle of hope for our work in education reform. In many ways, we feel the stars have finally aligned.


With an agenda that echoes our decade of investments--charter schools, performance pay for teachers, accountability, expanded learning time and national standards--the Obama administration is poised to cultivate and bring to fruition the seeds we and other reformers have planted.


More about Arne from a popular science blogger...yes indeedy I quote bloggers a lot. I find them more honest than the network media.

http://doyle-scienceteach.blogspot.com/2011/06/logic-of-arne.html

The logic of Arne

“Diane Ravitch is in denial and she is insulting all of the hardworking teachers, principals and students all across the country who are proving her wrong every day."
Arne Duncan




This is a fascinating logic statement, and my brain's smoking trying to parse it.

I'm a hard-working teacher, working for a hard-working supervisor, under a hard-working principal. And yes, our test scores have incrementally risen over the past few years, and yes, we're recognized as a nationally distinguished Title 1 school.

Incremental gains in "standardized" tests, tests that have us slapping our foreheads as we push mediocre writing habits on our borderline kids so that we make the grade, hardly counts as education.

Getting through another year of AYP successfully is like passing a ridiculously large and hard stool. You do it because you have to, there's a modicum of relief when it's done, and you pray you haven't done too much damage when passing it.

I'm hanging on to the edge of civility here, but if Arne keeps up his nonsense, I'm going to ask him to perform another bodily function not often mentioned in polite company.


Arne Duncan and Eli Broad are good friends and love to have their pictures taken together.









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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:59 AM

141. madfloridian - I appreciate you & your efforts to help children. THANK YOU! nt

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Response to AnotherMother4Peace (Reply #141)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:24 AM

143. Thank you.

The piling on like this by a few is a relatively new phenomenon. I don't remember it happening since the Dean/Clark wars of 03.

It is tiring, it wears me out to post here now. I am thinking about just posting at Daily Kos for a while, but I wonder if I can change my username there from floridagal. I doubt it.

Appreciate your efforts to keep things civil here.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:41 AM

144. I just watched GOP Reince Prebus on MTP using similar verbiage/language as some DU posters

Adjectives that are meant to dismiss and denigrate; speaking for the "American people", falsehoods, twisting of words, and just generally throwing crap out there (true or not) and seeing what sticks. Much regards to you.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:02 PM

149. Also - Thank you for staying to fight the good fight. DU is often tedious to read due to

the many right wing talking points and tag teaming going on. One time I posted about union activities (busting) of a government agency and Holy Moly, I was immediately attacked by a pack of dogs: called me stupid, was told that's "not what DUers believe", etc, etc. It was an amazing immediate response, and it was wearing.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:33 PM

153. The more push back you are getting means your message is hitting home.

Last edited Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:18 PM - Edit history (1)

Do not be deterred by these defenders of school privatization and shock doctrine proponents. It is amazing how quickly those posts show up on your OP's. It is clear your arguments are doing a great job in getting out the message for defending our children and our future, otherwise they would not bother to attack your posts so rigorously.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:38 PM

154. Pity is a lousy tool in rhetoric

 

Either defend your opinions with primary sources, expert opinion, and actual datat rather than blog posts (Science and Reason! defending your assertion through blogs is sophomoric at best), or quit your whining.

The nice thing about losing a debate is that you receive an opportunity to change indefensible opinions so that the next time you argue in that rhetorical domain, you will have opinions which you can effectively defend.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #154)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:45 PM

155. You need to reread your own posts here.

You really do.

Then take time to read the posts to which you were responding. Not just me, several others couldn't figure out what you were saying either.

I have often seen the words "pity" and "whiner" used to refer to me. It's usually when folks are losing the argument and lack proper words to respond.

You use a bunch of words, but they don't seem to have much meaning in the given context.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #155)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:50 PM

157. Still no defense?

 

Thought not. Talk to me when you have something substantive to say.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #157)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:07 PM

159. Wow.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #157)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:23 PM

163. You're really good at giving orders and making demands,

but you don't seem to have much talent in the fields of 'reading comprehension' and 'polite debate'.

Over a sixth of the posts on this o.p. are yours. Are you trying to double your post count here?

And it takes some gall to post in reply on someone else's o.p. and tell them to not talk to you. Shows a sketchy understanding of the site's mechanics.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #163)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 02:45 PM

165. Oh pshaw

 

You are mistaking rudeness with proving a point. There is no shame in being mistaken, except shame from walking away without learning the from the mistake.

The reason I am posting a great deal in this thread is because so many folks are engaging in the debate. Apparently they have a need to believe CC is an evil plot, and will cling to their mistaken assumptions the way the GOP cling to their guns and religion. The OP has many people fooled by her misinformation on a topic for which I have some experience and concern (I've taught grades 7 through 16). When I see people spouting nonsense in a debate about education, I feel I have a duty to set things straight.

Regarding gall (effrontery, impudence, impertinence, cheek, cheekiness, insolence, etc.), you are misinterpreting what I wrote. The sentence, "Talk to me when you have something substantive to say," is the exact opposite of telling someone to shut up. It is telling someone that what they have said is without substance, and they should join in the conversation with actual contributions, rather than (in this case) cries for sympathy because he or she is unable to defend their position.

In this case, I have the temerity (or gall) to demand the OP stand up and defend her stance.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #165)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 05:37 PM

186. Since you feel that you're the arbiter of what is 'substantive', your demand is impossible to

satisfy. Therefore, you're saying to her, in a subthread on her op, that she should not talk to you. Simple logic. Your command of similes is awesome, though, thanks for typing them all in. I'll bookmark this in case I come across a difficult crossword puzzle clue on the subject.

You pretend that you don't understand or believe you're behaving rudely, and pretend in the same post that mad is crying for sympathy and spouting nonsense. So you pretend rude things about her, and pretend you're not rude simultaneously.

Your many posts in this thread are not to the 'so many folks' engaging in the debate, they are to mad, over and over again, saying the same exact thing. 'Spreading misinformation' (#42), 'speaking nonsense' (79), 'Misleading o.p' (43), 'wrong again' (53) 'again misinfo' (119), your repetitive accusations add nothing to the conversation, they just act towards derailing it.

As a teacher for grades 7 through college, you seem to lack reading comprehension skill, as the o.p. doesn't say that CC is an evil plot, it says that the combination of CC and high-stakes testing is a threat to all public education. (Though there is some good info on the organizations behind the genesis of cc standards which mad posted several months ago, I remember.) Since you've been here since '06, why hasn't your duty to set things straight re mad's 'misinfo' manifested itself before now? She's posted tens of thousands of o.p.s on education, your duty should have resulted in a much higher post count for you by now.

In short, you're using the rules in a very lawyer-ly way, zealously violating the spirit of the law while abiding by the letter, else your disruptive uncivilty would have resulted in some alerts on you.

As a teacher-professor, you're obviously of above-average intelligence. So I was wondering, have you figured out if mad was a teacher yet? Or were you just trying to say that you believe she's a long-term mole who's been disguising herself as a long-time teacher who cares about public education? If the latter is true, I notice you made your accusation that she's been lying here for over a decade into a very inocuous toss-off line. If that interpretation of your statement is correct, I'd have to say you put the accusation in a very lawyer-like manner, why don't you utilize some of your patented gall and come right out and say it? I'd be more than happy to hit my first alert ever on such an honestly open accusation on your part.

But of course, I won't hold my breath waiting for you to be honest.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #186)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 06:50 PM

187. My "A"s to your "Q"s

 

Q. Since you've been here since '06, why hasn't your duty to set things straight re mad's 'misinfo' manifested itself before now?
A. I have had an account here for several years, but I primarily posted on Smirkingchimp.com. I left the political boards for some time as I started my own business.

Q. So I was wondering, have you figured out if mad was a teacher yet?
A. Nope.

Q. Were you just trying to say that you believe she's a long-term mole who's been disguising herself as a long-time teacher who cares about public education?
A. I cannot speak to her motivation. I can only respond to the data she presents.

Q. Why don't you utilize some of your patented gall and come right out and say it?
A. See the previous answer.

As far as "substantive", a primary source or an expert opinion to back up the nonsense would be nice. You can refer to me as an arbiter of what is "substantive", but any competent researcher knows that proving a point with posts from a blog is just a waste of time.

I'm unsure why you are angry. You accuse me of pretending, but my posts are as pragmatic and straightforward as possible on this thread. I have avoided calling anyone names and stayed calm when hostile responses populate the thread.

Finally, while I appreciate your complement regarding my mastery of similes, I think you will find that I haven't used a single simile in this thread. In fact, at this point, you might say that I've used similes as often as a person loses their virginity.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #187)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 09:39 AM

188. Here's a few notes, professor

I caught your 'simile - synonym' correction, thanks for tossing it. I'll leave 186 unedited, this line shows acknowledgement of my mistake, well enough.

Drop the lawyer act, just come right out and accuse mad of lying about having taught. Otherwise, your long-winded response in #187 -- with 4 sets of q and a s which don't really say what you want, but just imply it -- appears to be a tactic that is taught in 'De-Railing Conversations 101'.

Your use of 'motivation' in your third q shows you could use some time brushing up on definitions or reading comprehension, because it was a question about mad's actions, not the reasons she has for performing them. So bringing motivation into your answer doesn't respond to the question in a clear way, it just further obscures things. To a lesser extent, minor academic mistakes like mis-spelling weird and compliment can be avoided by clicking the helpful 'check spelling' box to the lower left of the reply box. These things tend to discredit your intellectual and academic capabilities, but there's no harm in being mistaken, as long as you learn from your mistakes.

If you feel that hostile responses populate the thread, at some point a reasonable person might take a moment to reflect on their own style and ask 'could it be something I'm doing that engenders this common response from diverse sources?' My take on your style is that you have a very thin veneer of 'humor', where you write accusations of lying and whining in a veiled manner. The accusations show real hostility, (YOU are angry), and you chortle up your sleeve that you got one over the jury system again. But it's not a happy laugh. If you're pretending to be polite, you aren't really convincing anyone else that is the case.

Your virginity simile, and exhaustive list of synonyms, aren't disturbing or shocking, they're just odd stylistic flashes that add nothing to the discussion. It's odd and ironic that you permit yourself these useless flashes, since you indict blogs as 'not primary sources', yet here you are on-line essentially functioning as a blog yourself, indicting blogs. And there are plenty of primary sources in the posts from mad or Diane Ravitch, which brings the derailed conversation back to the fore. This was written in the WaPo blog (of Post Education reporter Valerie Strauss), and it's something that you dismiss because, you know, it's a blog (so the arbiter can arbitrarily declare that primary sources and expert opinions aren't meeting their high expectations, and can therefore be mislabeled and ignored):

"Apparently, the department believes that more testing will help special education students achieve more in school. But since No Child Left Behind started, the standardized test-based “accountability” era more than a dozen years ago, there has been no evidence to show that standardized tests have improved student achievement, or that linking test scores to teacher evaluations has created better teachers."

It's a fact. It's a widely acknowledged fact, that bears discussion, and mad and other public ed advocates are trying to discuss it. You keep ignoring the testing end of things (example posts #70, 101, 139, and 186 are places where the issue was brought up, and you gloss over it, like you just don't see it.) The advocates and opponents of high-stakes nclb testing are continuing to say that public education is losing ground, it's observable reality. Opponents have been saying for over a decade that l'il bush's policy was just an attack on public education, an attempt to destroy it and steal the money for his wealthy cronies. But they were just bloggers with an opinion. (As usual, advocates are saying we should just stay the course, we just haven't enacted the policy fully enough and it needs more power and time to succeed.)

An afficionado of The Smirking Chimp, who use a 'lost virginity' simile to prove a point, might appreciate this: l'il bush's education policy is 'the Iraq invasion' of education policies. Bloggers opposed the Iraq debacle, saying that it was a horrible idea. Proponents said that there was no primary source to back up the assertions that his team was only interested in oil, profits, power; he was 'really' doing it for peace, democracy, national security, humanitarian interests. Opponent bloggers were all over the place with their conjectures (it was for the oil, it was revenge against Hussein, it was the chimp one-upping his dad for Freudian reasons, it was so he could consolidate power as a war president, it was so he could take Iraq's oil off the market to benefit the Saudi Exxon bottom line, it was so contractors like Halliburton and Blackwater could bleed us for obscene profits, etc.) They may have disagreed about the motives, but all agreed that the chimp was lying, and the results would be disastrous. Proponents said that those bloggers were all over the board, and had no proof that their suspicions were justifiable. These proponents' objections served to enable the bush Admin.

Here we are, 11 years later, and the results are disastrous. The opponents' predictions were proved true, the proponents' justifications proved disastrously false. Similar to his foreign policy, the chimps' Iraq War style education policy is a disaster, that he lied about to get implemented. We still get to see the architects of these failed plans opining on primary sources, all the time. Because the big money people are happy about the results, though they vary wildly from the stated aims used to justify the policy implementation. I'm not blaming you for Iraq with this simile or analogy, you just remind me of the Iraq policy proponents when you pursue your justification of l'il bush's 'Iraq Invasion' Education policies. Same tactics, same de-railment, same 'you can't prove it', for the same results.

Does your business happen to involve work with Rhee, Pearson, Broad, Gates, or any of the other witches brew of profiteers who want to destroy education and make big bucks out of denying non-rich Americans of the ability to learn? I only ask because it would go a long way towards explaining why duty called the educator-businessman to dust off the old account and suddenly re-enter the fray to forcefully back the Iraq invasion of education policies, while making thinly veiled insulting false accusations against a demonstrably good educator and Democrat like mad. Especially when any competent researcher knows that all over the country bad news is pouring in about educational opportunities for non-wealthy public school students, whether you accept the sources as primary \ substantive or not.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #187)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 10:40 AM

189. SO you would rather IMPLY I lie about being retired teacher...won't come out and say it?

Don't hide behind words that just imply.

Just come out and say it since you have questioned it throughout this thread.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #189)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 02:14 PM

190. Perhaps duty called A elsewhere. nt.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #190)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:13 PM

191. I hope so.

I swear that's the first time in all these years I've been told I was lying about being a retired teacher.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #191)

Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:38 AM

192. That post-er was very inconsistent. Jarringly so.

Different aspects of their on-line persona do not fall in line with each other.

They were around a long time, but weren't really here, weren't paying attention to the site, but knew how not to get hidden, cares deeply, just not enough to ever post, suddenly puts ~3 % of their total posts into opposing one single o.p. of yours. The story about who they are and where they're coming from is just out of sync with itself, 'ostensible minus plausible' is the closest I can come to politely describing how they appear.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #154)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 12:49 PM

156. Well at least you are big enough to admit you lost a debate.

 

Good on ya!

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Response to Rex (Reply #156)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:00 PM

158. Of course

 

Only an idiot is unable to recognize when he or she is wrong.

Two of the reasons I love a good debate is the possibility of learning something new and the risk of losing the argument.

In this debate, I've learned a few things that added additional support to my argument, but the risk of losing is negligible, so far, because madfloridian has shown little understanding about the topics.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #158)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:10 PM

161. Poor madfloridian...

so little understanding about education. If you believe you debated well in this thread....well, never mind.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #161)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:16 PM

162. Wierd.

 

It is like talking to the wall with that one...wierd...

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Response to Rex (Reply #162)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 03:58 AM

176. Be suspicious when you feel as though you are posting to a wall, or

as though you are trying to nail Jell-O wall as you "discuss" something with a poster.

But then, I don't need to tell any DUer that.

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Response to merrily (Reply #176)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:07 AM

180. That is how it feels. Trying to nail Jello to a wall. Exactly.

In my last 3 threads that is about all I have done.....thanks for expressing it well.

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:01 PM

166. Another post with same problems. Did not believe I was a teacher. June 11

Same piling on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025083413

It's a pattern here.

It feels so against the rules to post old stuff to prove a point, but since I am told often it is okay....then I feel it necessary in this case.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #166)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:13 PM

168. Well, you alerted on me for posting "old stuff" but it is not against the rules.

 

Seriously......here, you alerted on me for posting an old thread of yours.....but it is not against the rules.



On Tue May 20, 2014, 10:54 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Indeed--I direct you to this thread, where one can note teachers making uninformed critique....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4977313

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I thought it was against the rules to drag up old posts to use against other posters. This is the 2nd time this week this person has done this to me. If it is not against the rules, I will start fighting back pretty hard.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue May 20, 2014, 11:01 AM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4977313


Personally, I have no problem with you posting "old stuff." But I do have a problem with you alerting on other posters who post "old stuff" while you feel free to do the same.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #168)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:51 PM

170. Goose, gander...and all that.

That post I just linked to was mostly the other guy.

BTW I have never linked to your posts, old or new. The two I linked to in this thread are mine....showing my point.

And if someone wants to share jury decisions that is alright with me. I have a very very low total of alerts, and each one was justifiable.



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Response to madfloridian (Reply #170)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:54 PM

171. So you admit to posting old threads, but alerting on me for posting old threads? nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #171)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 09:29 PM

172. There you go again. I link to MY old posts. So do you.

Good Lordy, don't you get tired of the same old thing?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #172)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:09 PM

173. Well, I link to your old posts, too! What of it? Are you suggesting that on DEMOCRATIC

 

UNDERGROUND no one but you has the right to link to your old posts?

Since you are quoting Ronald Reagan, I'll quote a Democrat back to you....

Please proceed.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #173)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:08 AM

174. Are you referring to Goose, gander? Old saying, very old. Older than Ronnie.

http://www.stonebarnscenter.org/farm/news/root-of-it-good-for-the-goose.html

I thought you would catch the reference. But since you didn't, it also means if you can do it so can I.

You are certainly free to keep scouring my older posts trying to catch me saying something or other....looking for gotcha stuff. When I see you do it I will call you on it. If it is going to be made difficult for me to post here (and I hear by the grapevine it is being planned)...then I guess I have to get a tough hide if I want to stay.

But I don't link to others' threads for gotcha, and I won't do it to you. But I will post my own threads in which the same people are doing everything they can to hijack a thread and make people back off rather than argue.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #174)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 03:30 AM

175. OMG...did you miss where you quoted RR? Come on....I know you and I are both old enough

 

to remember that debate.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander? Madflo...if that's true, then WHY did you alert on me?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #175)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:04 AM

179. This is getting to be disturbing. I don't know even what to say to you anymore.

I know that I did a search and found instances of the "good for the goose good for the gander" with variations back to the last century or so.

So if that is what you are talking about, then no, I was not quoting Reagan.....I was quoting my grandmother a long time ago.

Seriously this is disturbing.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #179)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:24 AM

182. Dude.....

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_you_go_again

You just used that phrase, to me, upthread.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #182)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:21 PM

184. First off, I'm not a dude. 2nd you are really reaching on that reagan stuff

Talk about nitpicking?

Are you determined to hijack every thread of mine with stuff that doesn't even make sense?

There you go again, as in you are in almost every thread of mine trying to discredit me.

Reagan said a lot of stuff....

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #184)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:29 PM

185. I know you are not male...."Dude" is universal....

 

http://m.

This is your second thread on SPED in as many days, but I note that you have not engaged with parents of disabled children when they have disagreed with your assessments, or asked you questions.

To that end, Duncan proposes making states accountable for the graduation rates of the disabled. Do you support that, or not?

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 05:19 AM

177. I hope that totally destroying public education isn't Obama's legacy

but it sure looks that way!

Putting a basketball buddy in charge of one of the most important public institutions in the country is right up there with putting the people who destroyed the economy in charge or putting a telecom lobbyist in charge of the FCC. It hasn't been "change we can believe in"!

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Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:43 AM

183. K&R nt

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