Leonardo Boff "This Pope Will Change the Church"/Hobby Lobby "We Want Our Workers Barefoot/Pregnant"

[McCamy Taylor]

A little bit of Sunday free association: I found this article. It is not a new article. That's ok. It's new to me. It might be new to you. It surprised me. A lot. Leonardo Boff said "This Pope Will Change the World." Boff does not usually see eye to eye with the Pope.

Leonardo Boff needs no introduction at DU. He has his street creds. His book, St. Francis: A Model for Human Liberation is one of my all time ten favorite non fiction books ever. And it was reissued recently, meaning you can still get copies at Amazon (hint, hint).

Here's what the Liberation Theologist said about Pope Francis last winter:

Pope Francis is a pope of change. This is new. His predecessors John Paul II and Benedict XVI wanted the church to maintain its continuity. Francis has now started to reform the papacy.

I think this pope will create a dynasty of popes from the Third World. Only 24 percent of the world's Christians live in Europe while 62 percent live in Latin America and the rest in Asia and Africa. Today, Christianity is a religion of the Third World which originated in the first world. It has its own sources and traditions, heroes, martyrs, prophets and personalities like the Bishop of Recife, Dom Helder Camara, or the people's saint Oscar Romero. These churches bring new life into Christianity.

http://www.dw.de/leonardo-boff-this-pope-will-change-the-church/a-16970616

And here is Francis, himself:

“The times talk to us of so much poverty in the world and this is a scandal. Poverty in the world is a scandal. In a world where there is so much wealth, so many resources to feed everyone, it is unfathomable that there are so many hungry children, that there are so many children without an education, so many poor persons. Poverty today is a cry.”

(Pope Francis, Meeting with Students of Jesuit Schools—Q&A, 6/7/13)

It is time for the left to reclaim spirituality. And merchants, like Hobby Lobby who sell products made in third world sweat shops ought not to be held up as models of virtue or morality entitled to control their female employee's bodies because of their deeply held "beliefs." If a "belief" keeps your female workforce undereducated and underpaid because of an unplanned pregnancy, that is not a "belief", it is a business strategy.

[alp227]

1. "It is time for the left to reclaim spirituality."

What's the point of spirituality, other than being fairy tales for grown-ups?

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. Hobby Lobby’s Green family meets with Pope Francis

The Greens are in Rome for the launch of one of their traveling exhibits, “Verbum Domini II” (Latin for “The Word of the Lord”).

“The purpose of the meeting was to thank the pope for the loan of items to the exhibit from the Vatican museum and library,” said Jennifer Sheran of DeMoss, the Atlanta public relations firm that represents the Greens. “The pope did ask how the (Hobby Lobby) case was progressing.”

Eighteen members of the Green family met with the pope, Sheran said, as well as 10 members from the American Bible Society. The meeting lasted 30 minutes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/hobby-lobbys-green-family-meets-with-pope-francis/2014/03/31/4dfbe22c-b913-11e3-80de-2ff8801f27af_story.html

Don't be under any illusions - Francis wants Hobby Lobby to win.

[RainDog]

3. truth

And Francis said he was opposed to Marxism. His answer to poverty is for everyone to become a Catholic... which, we know from history, is no answer to the issue of poverty.

Romero, for the record, sided with the Marxists and that's why he was assassinated.

If people want to have spirituality - it's their business.

IT'S NOT THE BUSINESS OF THE GOVERNMENT and RELIGIONS HAVE NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT POLICY DECISIONS.

Whatever someone wants to believe - their business. Bring that belief into political life and try to impose that belief on others - expect your belief to be shredded and discounted because you have made it a political issue.

It's that simple.

[rug]

4. According to Jennifer Sheran of DeMoss, the Atlanta public relations firm that represents the Greens

You should disillusion yourself by comparing Hobby Lobby's business and labor practices with what Francis has actually said.

http://theweek.com/article/index/263225/stop-calling-hobby-lobby-a-christian-business

[msanthrope]

7. I am quite sorry...but did Francis not meet with them? Are you honestly suggesting

that this 30 minute audience was mischaracterized?

[rug]

11. Are you honestly suggesting "The pope did ask how the (Hobby Lobby) case was progressing”

means "Francis wants Hobby Lobby to win."

[msanthrope]

12. The amicus his church filed means Francis wants Hobby Lobby to win. nt

[rug]

13. That was the USCCB.

I'm sure Francis has an opinion on strict scrutiny and the First Amendment.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Well I'm sure that among the hundreds of articles...

... written about the meeting between President Obama and Pope Francis, you'll find that the issue of "religious liberty" and the HHS Mandate was a specific topic of their conversation. And in not one of those articles will you find it reported that they were in agreement on this issue - quite the opposite.

You know very well Francis supports all of these lawsuits (over a score of them) filed by Catholic organizations against the contraception mandate in the name of "religious freedom" or as the USCCB likes to call it, "religious liberty". If you have any evidence to the contrary, please feel free to provide it.

[rug]

16. It should be easy then to find one where he said he hopes Hobby Lobby wins.

I'll wait.

[theHandpuppet]

19. No, not playing that game tonight

It's always those who rush to the unquestioning defense of Francis who demand links. I've found that it really doesn't matter how many a person might provide -- 10, 20, 30, more -- somehow it's never enough even when the evidence is overwhelming. This thread is just another case in point. This time it's your turn. You provide the links.

[rug]

20. Me either.

I'll just wait for a single link. There must be, as you said, hundreds.

[theHandpuppet]

22. In other words, you don't have any.

Isn't that right?

[rug]

23. Lol! Not a one that says Francis hopes Hobby Lobby wins.

Do you?

[theHandpuppet]

25. Plenty

But you wouldn't accept them anyway, so I'm still waiting for your one.

[rug]

26. Ah, that must be it.

Well, let's watch a video while we're waiting.

[msanthrope]

17. Are you really pleading Matthew 6:3? Is Francis an Avignon

Pope, unable to direct his unruly flock????

Come, come, rug!!! Are you honestly, honestly telling us that the cardinals of your church are acting without authority?

FYI....here's a primer on Matthew, Chapter 6.....

http://m.

[rug]

21. Are you really citing Matthew 6:3?

3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,
4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

I don't think it means what you think it means.

Just because there's a proper name followed by two numerals, separated by a colon, doesn't mean it's apt.

Sometimes, though, there are citations relevant to what's at hand: Proverbs 10:14.

[msanthrope]

31. Yes....you are suggesting that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing,

which is patently ridiculous.

FYI..if you want to call me a "fool," then why not have the courage to do so openly, rather than quoting the book you think provides you moral clarity?

[theHandpuppet]

15. Don't you see?

When the church files scores of lawsuits against contraception coverage or spends millions of dollars on legislation to oppress LGBTs, that's some other Catholic church out there in the ether that has no connection to Pope Francis. Or when Francis invites France's most notoriously anti-gay, anti choice hatemonger to a private mass or spends a half hour receiving the Hobby Lobby family, it's only to exchange souvenirs. The real Francis is a pro-choice advocate and proponent of gay marriage, when he isn't spending his free time sneaking out of the Vatican at night to feed the homeless.

[msanthrope]

18. Indeed.....the cardinals do not speak for the church. Except for electing the Pope. nt

[theHandpuppet]

5. What ARE you talking about?

Not only is the Pope against reproductive choice (of any kind), the RCC filed an amicus brief ("friend of the court&quot with the SC in support of Hobby Lobby.

U.S. Bishops File Amicus Curiae Brief Supporting Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood Specialties in Supreme Court Cases Challenging HHS Mandate
January 28, 2014
Brief highlights 'potentially fatal fines' confronting closely held businesses
Reiterates support for business owners challenging HHS mandate
Laws must protect individuals and families who seek to practice faith in daily life

WASHINGTON—The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) on January 28 filed an amicus curiae brief with the U.S. Supreme Court in support of the plaintiffs in Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. and Conestoga Wood Specialties Corp. v. Sebelius.In both cases, family-owned businesses are challenging the legality of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) regulation that forces virtually all employers to include in their employee health plans coverage of sterilization, contraceptives, and drugs and devices that may cause abortions, as well as related education and counseling.

The USCCB explained in its amicus brief that it opposes "any rule that would require faithful Catholics and other religiously motivated business owners to choose between providing coverage for products and speech that violate their religious beliefs, and exposing their businesses to devastating penalties." These penalties include "potentially fatal fines" of $100 a day per affected individual.

The brief reflects and implements the U.S. bishops' consistent support for litigants from the non-profit and for-profit sectors alike who have challenged the HHS mandate in court...

...The amicus brief argued that religious exercise cannot, and should not, be excluded from the marketplace; that the mandate substantially burdens Hobby Lobby's and Conestoga's religious exercise; and that the mandate cannot survive strict scrutiny review by the Court.... http://www.usccb.org/news/2014/14-024.cfm

[Dawson Leery]

27. The Cardinals and Bishops reflect the church.

[freshwest]

29. Supporting Hobby Lobby? And their business model? Major fail!

[msanthrope]

6. Wake me when this pope changes a single bit of dogma. It's all PR. nt

[theHandpuppet]

9. I wonder where all this concern for poor women in third world sweatshops was...

... while this was going on.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2013/07/10/2003566788

Church in final birth control fight in Philippines
A relentless Catholic Church campaign to derail a birth control law in the Philippines entered its final phase at the Supreme Court yesterday, with the verdict to have a monumental impact on millions of poor Filipinos.

The court began hearing arguments against a family planning law that Philippine President Benigno Aquino III, defying intense church pressure, helped steer through parliament late last year.

It is the last legal recourse for the church, which for more than a decade led resistance to birth control legislation in the mainly Catholic nation.

The church, which had threatened Aquino and other supporters of the law with excommunication, yesterday held prayer vigils, protests and masses near the Supreme Court....

And in case anyone's wondering, yes, I DID post that article to DU as that battle was going on along with a lot of other information about the RCC's "war on women and poverty".

[freshwest]

30. Keep the church out of the government, or we'll lose all our freedoms! Disgusting.

[RainDog]

8. The fastest growing religious group in the U.S. is NO religion

As of 2012, this group had grown by 25%, compared to a previous Pew poll.

According to the 2012 Pew poll, 88% of religiously unaffiliated people are not looking for religion.

The survey found that the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing even faster among younger Americans.

Thirty-three million Americans now have no religious affiliation, with 13 million in that group identifying as either atheist or agnostic, according to the new survey.

The Pew survey suggested that the Democratic Party would do well to recognize the growth of the unaffiliated, since 63% of them identify with or lean toward that political group. Only 26% of the unaffiliated do the same with the Republican Party.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09/survey-one-in-five-americans-is-religiously-unaffiliated/

Americans who would be most likely to vote for Democrats DO NOT WANT their politicians to try to appeal to religious beliefs - and, pollsters noted, this group, as a powerful political bloc, is like the growth of the religious right among Republicans in the 1980s.

The worst thing a Democratic politician could do at this time is to alienate the voters who do not want religion in politics - and, it can be easily argued, this very voting bloc arose because of the power of the religious right in the Republican Party. Democrats will not win the religious right wing voter but they could very well lose the non religious by appeals to religion.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. The Pope sides with Hobby Lobby on this.

He also gives long lingering meetings to the owners of Hobby Lobby. He tweets is support for anti choice marches and actions.
He is in fact the world's leading anti choice activist.

[BainsBane]

24. Virtually all products we buy are made in highly exploitive conditions in the Third World

That is not what distinguishes Hobby Lobby. Add to the list the companies that made your computers and telephones, all your electronic equipment, clothing, shoes, dishes, and most everything else we buy.

That is an issue apart from Hobby Lobby's lawsuit about birth control.

Where does this quote you use about barefoot and pregnant come from? I have never known an employer that wanted workers to become pregnant. It usually is quite the opposite. Pregnancy results in lost days of work and often reduced productivity. That quote makes no sense, and since you don't have a source for it, I have to wonder if it is your invention.

There are all kinds of legitimate grievances with Hobby Lobby and the Catholic Church, but for some reason you prefer to focus on things that have nothing to do with the actual case. Facts matter. There is plenty to support your argument that would actually make sense. I don't know why you pull stuff in that doesn't.

[freshwest]

28. Perfect: 'that is not a "belief", it is a business strategy.'

[gerogie2]

32. I worked for a pro-life boss...

twenty years ago I worked at a small independent car rental agency. The female book keeper that worked part time was single and became pregnant. The pro-life owner laid her off claiming he was outsourcing her job. He kept referring to her as a sl*t when she wasn't around.