Trayvon Martin case: What is difference between manslaughter and murder charges?

[dkf]

As spelled out in Florida Statute 782.07, manslaughter is a killing caused by an individual's "culpable negligence."

What is culpable negligence?

"You've got to do something really stupid," said William Orth, a Longwood lawyer and former Seminole County prosecutor, "…something that you and I as intelligent humans — adults — know, 'Don't do that. Somebody could get hurt.' "

It requires a suspect to be much more than negligent, lawyers say. It requires him to show a gross disregard for the safety of others.

In Trayvon's case, prosecutors would have to prove Zimmerman was wanton and reckless, according to the set of jury instructions that all Florida judges read aloud before sending jurors to begin deliberations in manslaughter cases.

If Zimmerman was the aggressor and provoked the fight, that might be manslaughter, said Orlando defense attorney Diana Tennis.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-manslaughter-20120331_1_manslaughter-longwood-lawyer-criminal-defense-lawyer

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[elleng]

1. Intent

[Aerows]

2. I don't see how

A jury of rational people could look at Zimmerman following Trayvon with a gun, even after he was advised not to do so, and construe it as anything but negligent. He knowingly escalated the situation, and frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if it comes out that the gun accidentally went off and he shot him in the back OR if he willingly shot him. He's known as a reckless, aggressive individual.

[HooptieWagon]

3. The difference

If Zimmerman tried to apprehend Trayvon by tackling him to the ground, and in doing so Trayvon hit his head on the ground killing him... Manslaughter
Pulling a gun, aiming at Trayvon, and pulling the trigger... Murder.

[Justice wanted]

4. IF Zimmerman gets of on Manslaughter charges than our justice system is busted. He followed

Trayvon when he was told not too. He brought a gun with him. Too my humble mind those actions show intent.

[cthulu2016]

10. ???

Carrying a gun is not intent to commit murder beyond a reasonable doubt. Following someone is not intent to commit murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just because Zimmerman was a scumbag up to no good, that is not decisive proof of intent to comit murder.

And decisive proof is necessary. The presumption of innocence applies here. The reasonable doubt standard (which is extremely high) applies here.

If Zimmerman is ever convicted of any homicide it will be manslaughter because there will not be proof beyond a reasonable doubt beyond manslaughter.

That doesn't mean he didn't plan to kill. It means that things like what you cite are not, in fact, decisive evidence of intent.

[Justice wanted]

16. IF he was so insistant on following Trayvon HE COULD HAVE LEFT THE GUN IN THE CAR! He Stalk

Trayvon WITH A GUN that soundslike INTENT to me.

[Fawke Em]

22. Actually, he should have just never left the car. eom

[Justice wanted]

24. absolutely!

[Life Long Dem]

15. The judicial system is bust on whether he turned back or not?

I don't think so.

[grasswire]

5. Nancy Grace made an interesting point.

Yeah, it's Nancy Grace, but she has been all over this case.

She said that "intent" to kill might only have been present in the moment that the trigger was pulled, but it would still be intent. A shooter might immediately feel remorse and horror. But the intent at the moment of pulling the trigger is sufficient.

[Kaleva]

6. Zimmerman also ignored his Neighborhood Watchman training

""I'm disappointed that people are trying to put blame onto the program when it's not the program's fault," said Wendy Dorival, who coordinates volunteer programs, including Neighborhood Watch, for the Sanford police. "Neighborhood Watch is not what took his life away"...."

"...Neighborhood Watch, by contrast, is less formal and is run by residents — although volunteers in both programs are told not to confront anyone. Their job is to observe and describe suspicious people or cars to law officers and help make their neighbors aware of problems.

"We tell people, 'Don't be a hero,'" Dorival said. "Don't risk it.""

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-neighborhood-watch-20120321_1_zimmerman-community-ties-neighborhood-watch

[slackmaster]

7. Murder generally requires malice aforethought

No forethought = no murder.

[cthulu2016]

9. Yes, though that forethought

can be a mere second in the right circumstances. Premeditation doesn't always require much meditation.

For instance (hypotheticaly), if Zimmerman was in a fight and rolled away and stood up and Martin was helpless on the ground and Zimmerman shot him that could still be 1st degree murder. There is a decision making process there... a potentially deliberate act. (An act that has been deliberated.)

[no_hypocrisy]

11. The mentality isn't limited to an intent to kill beforehand.

It can be murder if the mentality demonstrates "an indifference to human life" where you may not consciously intend to kill, but you know that your actions will likely conclude in another's death.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Yeah, he'd have to say something like "those bastards always get away."

and then go after the kid with a gun.

[Junkdrawer]

13. Key portion of the 911 transcript:

Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.

Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit he's running.

Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking (unintelligible)

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html#document/p2/a49098

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Second less clear key part

Sorry fr the language kiddies.

Fucking coons.

Between those two I think intent can mostly be shown and at least go for manslaughter, I believe they can, if they have a capable prosecutor, get murder two, aggravated by federal hate crime statues.

[slackmaster]

20. It would have to be something more like "I'm going to kill this asshole"

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

21. 1.) No it wouldn't 2.) Even then, his defenders would try to convince us....

that is insufficient proof of premeditation.

[rucky]

29. between murder and manslaughter is second degree murder

and this case fits the bill.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Have you listened to the 911 tapes?

You shoud, relevant transcripts bellow.

I mean "they always get away" and "fucking coons" followed by 911 operator telling Zimmy he does not need to follow, standard by the way for watch, will be central to establish intent.

Hell, the author of the bill said early on that he is not covered under SYG laws.

[cthulu2016]

8. About Reasonability

Sometimes the "reasonable man" standard comes into play with lesser homiide charges, like manslaughter. Would a reasonable person have felt in fear for his life? Would a reasonable person know not to drive 100 MPH thrugh a city? Etc.

For first degree murder you need a specific intent to commit an unjustifiable homicide.

When that speciffic intent is not provable beyond a reasonable doubt, which is close to impossible sometimes, the law falls back on lesser homicide standards that boil down to doing something so fucked up that no sensible person would do it, and that leads to a death.

Shooting someone in self defense is subject to that.

If you sincerely believe your neighbor is a martian and shoot him then your defense is insanity.

If you sincerely believe that your neighbor is a burglar who means you ahrm, and have some reason to have made that wrong assumption, that is self defense.

If your neighbor knocks on your door and you fire shots through the door because you think it is a burglar then you have not acted reasonably in thinking about what constitutes a threat, and have acted with an unreasonable recklessness and indifference to human life. If you have acted with a depraved indifference to human life that will be a higher charge, though usually still not 1st degree.

[Solomon]

14. When you shoot an unarmed child who is screaming

for help for 30 to 40 seconds, its murder, not manslaughter.

[COLGATE4]

17. Perhaps emotionally, but not legally. nt

[HooptieWagon]

18. Absolutely legally.

Shooting to wound is a Hollywood fantasy. When you aim at someone and pull the trigger, you are intending to kill them. Intent = murder, not manslaughter.

[COLGATE4]

26. Has nothing to do with 'shooting to wound'. The

question is the state of mind of the shooter. That's the difference between Murder 1, Murder 2 and Manslaughter.

[HooptieWagon]

28. Yes. And his state of mind when he aimed the gun

And pulled the trigger was to kill. Tjere wasnt premeditation warranting murder one, but there was the intent to kill. It wasnt an accident.

[Solomon]

19. Oh, okay, excuse me. If you shoot an unarmed White

child who is screaming for help, its murder. LEGALLY.

There. Fixed it for you.

[COLGATE4]

27. No - it still depends on the state of mind of the shooter.

Read cthulu's posts (above) for a great explanation of the difference between Murder 1 and other types of voluntary homicide.