General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo you consider this photo anti-Semitic?
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Violet_Crumble (a host of the General Discussion forum).
Photo is at: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5199752
I absolutely DESPISE Henry Kissinger, but c'mon, if the photo in the link above has his nose reshapen like that (vs. an actual photo of him), you can't say that photo doesn't have some dog-whistle anti-Semitic overtones to it. I've seen that image on all sorts of conspiracy (thus it follows anti-Semitic) websites.
Yet a jury UNANIMOUSLY voted to leave it alone. You won't believe the types of comments posted there. Even though I provided links in my alert comments to conspiracy sites that had the image (which I shall not repost here) and links to sites explaining the anti-Semitic trope of the "hooked nose".
Explanation: Sorry, war criminal is a war criminal. This is not anti-semitic, it's anti-kissinger.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Someone dares to speak their mind against GMOs and this is what you resort to, accusations of antisemitism? This is a discussion forum, people are allowed to disagree and have different opinions. I don't give a damn one way or the other, but the fact that you feel the need to shut this person up so badly with wild accusations speaks volumes. Leave.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The entire thread is deliberately insulting so...meh.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh!
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh.
So 3 "meh" comments, 2 "no explanations given", and the typical "this is just an opinion" comment, in a jury pool that won't enforce DU ToS (where the "no bigoted hate speech" section explicitly lists claiming "nefarious influence by Jews" as an example). Amazing.
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Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)
alp227
(33,284 posts)was thinking "EVIL JEW" when redoing Kissinger's nose. No freaking way.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)He always sounded like he came form Germany or some other Baltic country to me, so I never even thought to connect his last name with being Jewish.
Bucky
(55,334 posts)The fact that nearly everyone isn't seeing what you're seeing here should be a clue, my friend. You seem to be projecting more into this photo than what others detect. There's so many more tropes of antisemitic characterizations that are absent here, beyond the "hooked nose" you obsess about. The list of "crimes" by Kissinger is pretty factual. The fact that the image was stretched horizontally tells us more about the dimensions the artist was working with in order to use a big enough font size than it says about his or her prejudices.
malaise
(296,118 posts)He should be locked up in the Hague
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)of Allende in Chile.
malaise
(296,118 posts)I don't plan to forget
Aerows
(39,961 posts)
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)
tecelote
(5,156 posts)Freedom of speech should prevail here.
alp227
(33,284 posts)and "freedom of speech"? C'mon, there are 1000s of other forums out there to post what's not allowed by ToS here.
tecelote
(5,156 posts)You're simply making matters worse and bringing attention that that which you despise.
alp227
(33,284 posts)Bigotry isn't always explicit...it can be subtle at times.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)You are giving it more attention than it would otherwise receive.
tecelote
(5,156 posts)We're not Jewish.
malaise
(296,118 posts)or Chinese and get back to me.
All I know about Kissinger is that he is a war criminal - never knew or cared whether he was Jewish or not.
madmom
(9,681 posts)When I was growing up one of the teasing questions always asked of my brother and father was about their "Roman nose" because it "roams all over their face". We are in no way shape or form Jewish, we are Italian. 
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and freedom of speech is irrelevant here unless you think there's an Agent Mike ready to censor DU.
JI7
(93,618 posts)the same as when people compared Bush to a Chimp.
one has a history of being used against a group in horrible, bigoted, dehumanising ways.
there is no freedom of speech on a political website. freedom of speech means the administrators would have a right to allow the hateful speech if they wanted to . but it doesn't mean the admin have to allow it on their site.
GeorgeGist
(25,570 posts)anti-GMO = anti-semitic. Got it.
alp227
(33,284 posts)another to use racist graphics like the one in the post linked, to illustrate the point.
samsingh
(18,426 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)alp227
(33,284 posts)especially the one in the linked post with the big nose. it's posted in many sites deemed to be bigoted against Jews/Israel.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)He's on my list of people that I will not miss at all when he's dead. The people I hate got there because of what they've DONE, not what they look like, religion, ethnicity, etc.
JI7
(93,618 posts)and use the reasons most of us here hate him as justification for it ?
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)
alp227
(33,284 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)inadvertently changed the aspect ratio to make the image slightly compressed on the vertical axis.
I'd attribute the distortion to inexperience rather than malice.
Takket
(23,715 posts)it looks to me like his whole face has been stretched, and that is why the nose is big. like whoever made the graphic didn't really know what they were doing and stretched his face horizontally, probably to cover whoever's face was actually on that picture.
the same effect as trying to watch a 4:3 TV show stretched out on a widescreen TV.
I wouldn't even have noticed if someone hadn't said his nose was different
rock
(13,218 posts)Otherwise I would not reply. As it is I should make a few points.
1) I did not know Kissassinger was Jewish and had not thought about it;
2) the photo could be taken as Hank has a honker and nothing more;
3) I would personally avoid using the photo now that you have pointed that out;
4) I guess I can begrudgingly accept the judges ruling though it is close.
And yeah HK is a war criminal but his being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with that. So for what it's worth that's my opinion. Make of it what you will alp227.
tecelote
(5,156 posts)There you go.
You posted. You promoted it.
rock
(13,218 posts)why that's not correct?
tecelote
(5,156 posts)The comments were for the person posting.
4now
(1,598 posts)just because you disagree with them or the pictures that they post.
It is often used to stifle discussion.
I didn't think we were allowed to call others anti-semitic at DU.
Fozzledick
(3,921 posts)Especially when you just keep repeating the same malicious propaganda meme.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)If you've seen old school anti-semitic propaganda, you know that one there is not a classic "Jewish nose".
And also, I know lots of Jewish people, and they don't have noses like that either, most of them. Or like the propaganda nose either.
You might think it is some subtle dog-whistle, it's not crazy to think that, but I'd have to disagree here.
JI7
(93,618 posts)against Blacks. and not comparable to things like saying Bush looks like a chimp.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)It's used for lots of the targets of bigots. It is certainly the intent of the picture to insult Kissinger. But it seems much less certain from the picture that it has anything to do with his ethnicity. If it is true, as the other poster says, that it's from an "anti-semitic site", and I knew that, I'd probably hide it, otherwise not, because it does not suggest Jewishness to me by itself, and as you can see I have a lot of company.
JI7
(93,618 posts)because it's unhealthy .
but it's not the same thing as how it's been used against blacks.
as for having a lot of company this site has a history of allowing a lot of bigoted crap so it doesn't say much to me.
there were many times when the jury allowed things to remain and the admin still ended up removing the poster.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)which I think he denies, but the circumstantial evidence looks pretty strong against him. It's possible that he's anti-semitic purely for profit - he know the gullible fools who buy his conspiracy theories also have a tendency to anti-semitism.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)If you don't want people's opinions don't ask. If your purpose is educational, be up front about it.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)I pointed out the source of the mugshot, and a well-known opinion about Icke. What's this "If you don't want people's opinions don't ask" and "I will be sure to ignore such questions in the future" nonsense?
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)so i gave the specific site that it was from. Why do you go 'huh?' at that? You didn't seem to know what site it was from.
So where did this "I will be sure to ignore such questions in the future" and "if you don't want opinions" stuff come from? Post #75 seems a complete non-sequitur.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I consider that a good time to quit trying. You have a nice day too.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)that you don't want anyone to ever supply any facts to you at all?
My day was going well until you started being unnecessarily rude to me.
JI7
(93,618 posts)Jews.
same with the watermelon and fried chicken with black people. it's not about whether they actually eat or like the food.
the point is these things have been used in ways to attack an entire people in bigoted ways.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)So it must be obvious by now that many people don't see it that way.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Kissinger is a war criminal. His religion and the size of his nose are irrelevant.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)though, ironically, an earlier account from the same person that they abandoned (getting too near 5 hides, perhaps?) is still unbanned, because it managed too many posts for MIRT to have the power to ban. Hopefully admin will correct that.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)and the source of the image was davidicke.com.
Now, they might have found the image in a google search, or they might have found the image because they're a regular reader of dumbass anti-Semite David Icke's site.
Given the poster's histories here, I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Sid
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Someone saying "do you think when he says 'lizards', he really means 'Jews'?" the response being "no, he's completely mental, I think he actually means 'lizards'".
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Comedy gold, tho.
Sid
TBF
(36,671 posts)SidDithers
(44,333 posts)a few hours ago.
Sid
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)It looks to me like they widened and flattened his face making him look more sinister. I'm not sure if the intention was to make his nose wider as opposed to his entire face. If the nose was targeted in particular then you could have a point. I think the solution to leave the photo alone but then to have this discussion to bring this possible issue to our awareness is the way this should have turned out. I don't think the photo alone is enough to justify removal.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The alerter, not the jury.
If this is how you spend your Sundays...<android rolls his eyes>
Warpy
(114,616 posts)but there are a few on DU who go around with their outrage meters dialed up to 11 on the behalf of other people who wish they'd knock it off, already.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I've never seen a Jewish person with pointy ears like that.
Warpy
(114,616 posts)A truly anti Semitic Photoshop would have narrowed and lengthened the nose with a deep shadow under it, suggesting a hook.
I'm old enough to remember the real thing. Only when the horror of Hitler's death camps came fully to light and was publicized was the general public shamed out of antisemitism.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #35)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)The poster who posted that image copied the url from davidicke.com.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/David_Icke
Sid
The widening of the face - all the face - makes Kissinger look like an alcoholic with a drinker's nose
Chan790
(20,176 posts)as much as the traditional caricaturists' trick of overemphasizing and distorting recognizable signature features. Kissinger does have a broad nose and recognizably-distinct glasses, they've hyper-emphasized them here as the key features that would make anybody look at the picture and think "Oh, that's Henry Kissinger."
unblock
(56,198 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)You alerted on the post, thought you had a clear cut win, and nobody agreed with you. Now you run to the crowd and start demanding that the crowd grab the pitchforks and torches and follow you to the castle.
Saying a man who happens to be black did something wrong is not racist. It's the actions that they are discussing, not the race.
Saying a woman did something wrong is not sexist, it's the actions that are being discussed.
Saying a man from Yemen who happens to be Islamic did something wrong is not religious persecution.
Undoubtedly the individual who posted the picture saw it elsewhere, and just copied the link to here. I don't believe that their intent was to smear the Jewish Faith, or claim some anti-Semitic nonsense was true.
So what is Anti-Semitic? It is the claim that all Jews are bad because they are the rich and powerful interests that keep the Gentiles and other non believers subservient. This is the idea that we have to restrict the actions of the Jewish people because they are secretly controlling the banking industry, the war industry, and all that sort of thing.
What is Anti-Semitic, as an example only Jury Voters. Claiming that people in Israel take the blood of Christian or Islamic children to make a pastry for Passover. That is a lie designed to smear an entire group. That my friends, is bigotry.
Classifying the actions of a group is bigotry. Classifying the actions of an individual, based upon the common norms, and applied equally is not in any way bigoted. That is what equality is supposed to look like. When we are judged not by the color of our skin, but the content of our character.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)but combined with the sourcing from an anti-Semitic nutjob's page? I'd err on the side of caution and vote to hide it.
I guess what has been most helpful about this thread is that more DUers are aware of the specific link of exaggerated noses and anti-Semitic caricatures, and that Kissinger is Jewish, thus the use of this image with the exaggerated features may indeed have been playing to the stereotype.
JHB
(38,213 posts)So yes, I'd agree that it draws from anti-semitic tropes, but the front view makes it less obvious unless you know what to look for. Further, the version used in that thread is already clearly distorted by vertical compression, which would obscure it even more. Finally, all of his features are being exaggerated.
Undistorted version of "mugshot"
Actual mug:
(By the way, these pictures brought to you by the exhaustive research method known as "30 seconds on Google"
herding cats
(20,049 posts)The image was designed to emphasize and exaggerate his nose it would appear.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)In the real photos, the length of the nose from bridge to tip is well under the distance between the centre of the eyes, or the distance from tip of nose to bottom of chin. In the mugshot drawing, it's bigger than the former, and equal to the latter - so it's not just a matter of the whole face being distorted vertically or horizontally.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)i.e., ... whether his features are exaggerated or not, and whether if so, the nose is among them, and if so, whether the nose is made larger to some degree ...
... aren't you well past making a case for a deliberate racist caricature that should have been hidden by a DU jury?
Context also matters. This is an image calling Kissinger out for his real, atrocious actions, not for his cultural identity, heritage, or religion, right? He did those things.
Yet, if a careful examination and comparison to other images shows any exaggeration of his features, we should all infer the intent of the image is religious bigotry?
That seems like a long way to go to discount a real critique of a real bad guy.
Five seconds of Google indicates every single political cartoon of Kissinger, ever, exaggerates his features, nose included.
All bigotry?
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)
TheBlackAdder
(29,981 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Anti- Semitic website. Thanks for shining a light on this.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)His face is not that wide. I don't know why the face was stretched, but it could have been done for anti-Semitic reasons. Could have been done to make him look fatter than he is. Maybe the graphic creator just wanted the face to fit the picture better. Who knows?
NYC Liberal
(20,453 posts)a vile anti-Semitic website.
The hide should have been unanimous.
spanone
(141,628 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,381 posts)I can't believe so many people here are completely in the dark on this subject.
JI7
(93,618 posts)alp227
(33,284 posts)
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)...MANY people are in the dark, as much so as the shadow cast from the drawing's nose. Some prefer to look the other way. It is "funny" to see some people complain about the "anti-Semitism" card, but would DU tolerate (or be as accepting) if people started saying expressions of racism were "playing the race" card? The jury and the reactions here are of no surprise to me. Look at the recent anti-female stereotypes being used and the number of people claiming it is anything but.
Starry Messenger
(32,381 posts)"but would DU tolerate (or be as accepting) if people started saying expressions of racism were "playing the race" card?"
But this thread sure illuminates a serious problem here with knowledge of bigoted stereotypes and their expression.
steve2470
(37,481 posts)One only needs to look at Julius Streicher's propaganda in the 1930's to see it. If I was a cartoonist, if I knew
Kissinger was Jewish, I'd sure avoid that.
Hong Kong Cavalier
(4,607 posts)Some shady group put out a pamphlet with a caricature of Sen. Franken with a similar style of nose the summer of that election. Even tried to imply that he was a pedophile in the pamphlet. It was more than a bit evil, and nobody claimed responsibility, of course.
Fozzledick
(3,921 posts)
roody
(10,849 posts)
mercuryblues
(16,415 posts)actual picture of Kissenger is somehow anti-semetic? It is not reshaped, that is his real nose.
http://abcnews.go.com/meta/search/imageDetail?format=plain&source=http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/gty_2001_henry_kissinger_wm_nt_130327
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nWpwm6lhWUs/SN3L78erqcI/AAAAAAAAEG4/gROxuWl_GXc/s400/Henry+Kissinger+and+Shimon+Peres.jpg
muriel_volestrangler
(106,212 posts)(b) see reply #48 for actual full-frontal photos of Kissinger. You can measure the size of his nose compared with other facial features, and you'll see that the drawing as significantly enlarged his nose.
Response to alp227 (Original post)
AverageJoe90 This message was self-deleted by its author.
bermudat
(1,329 posts)If Jews feel its anti semitic, its anti semitic.
fireflysky46
(224 posts)antisemite LOL :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205326
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)What did the alerter say? I couldn't figure out why your post was hidden.
fireflysky46
(224 posts)When they are marginalizing someone by telling he is a Jew....like if it's something bad.
They think that I am telling that being a Jew is a issue...
So they don't know how to read, or they are really not fair play.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts)I was really surprised to see it was hidden. I read it though! 
fireflysky46
(224 posts)And for that I am declared anti-Semite...this is really a Russian reality indeed !
Probably the kremlin tv effect on North America.
Behind the Aegis
(56,108 posts) fireflysky46
(224 posts)On Mon Jul 7, 2014, 08:28 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
The military leader of the russians terrorist is now a Jew/CIA.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205326
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
A jew and provacateur? Why does it matter if he's Jewish? Looks like some ugly antisemitism.
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Jul 7, 2014, 08:43 AM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I noticed that too.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A few GD Host might not understand why, but Hide It.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The OP is listing accusations against the man. Apparently the Russian terrorists holding Eastern Ukraine hostage consider Judaism to be insultable. Says a LOT about them.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
CONSEQUENCES OF THIS DECISION
You will no longer be able to participate in this discussion thread, and you will not be able to start a new discussion thread in this forum until 9:43 AM. This hidden post has been added to your <a href="/?com=profile&uid=315139&sub=trans">Transparency page</a>.
IMPORTANT: Hidden posts remain on your Transparency Page for 90 days. If at any time your Transparency Page contains five or more hidden posts there are additional consequences: 1) your Transparency Page will be displayed and can be read by any logged-in member, 2) you will be unable to post until there are fewer than five hidden posts remaining on your Transparency Page, 3) if you are a forum or group Host and/or serving on the Malicious Intruder Removal Team (MIRT), you will lose those privileges.
Reter
(2,188 posts)If someone has big ears, thhey make them bigger (think the comics of H. Ross Perot in 1992). If someone has a big nose, the person should be exempt because he's Jewish?
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)Thing about anti-semitism, is that it can be the most insidious of bigotries, so it doesn't become clear to many people unless it's blatant. This is to me, not subtle, but many people are simply gong to see a cartoonists hand it the drawing, and not assess what the alteration in features suggest.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Even though charges of anti-Semitism do get made too often, I probably would've voted to hide here.
I wasn't born yesterday and I think the exaggerated nose was done for a reason.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)His whole face and upper bits look shorter and wider than he actually is, but couldn't that just be to fit in all the words? It is the "Kissinger is a War Criminal" meme, after all. Memes are not known for scrupulous photographic accuracy, or for presenting flattering images when the point is to criticize someone for, say, war crimes.
Are you saying someone actually Photoshopped just the nose, specifically as an ethnic insult?
That would be out of bounds.
I worry a little more about bad-faith accusations of anti-Semitism, which is a pretty healthy industry around these parts.
For example, you mention "nefarious influence by Jews" as being against the ToS (of course).
But it would obviously be a bad-faith interpretation of that to suggest that any mention of the nefarious influence of Kissinger -- and if anyone is known for his nefarious influence, it is this man -- is always suspect because Kissinger is also Jewish, right?
Is there a real issue on DU where Kissinger is reviled for his identity, rather than his actions?
dilby
(2,273 posts)The problem with the photo is that they are deliberately trying to emphasis him being a Jew so the person who sees the photo gets the mental picture that one Jews Control the Country and two Jews are war criminals.
samsingh
(18,426 posts)Kissinger is a complete asshole who enabled what Pakistan has become today - a nuclear armed state that supports terrorists
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)and it should have been hidden. I'm surprised by the Jury's decision and by many replies to this post.
It clearly shows a war criminal and his crimes. Period. Calling this anti-antisemitism is a joke.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)So Meh the new
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)The GD SOP says no whining about DU. Whining about jury results is part of that.