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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
This kind of followers two other posts I have made on this topic. Here and Here
Mr. Kagan has also been careful to avoid landing at standard-issue neocon think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute; instead, hes a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, that citadel of liberalism headed by Strobe Talbott, who was deputy secretary of state under President Bill Clinton and is considered a strong candidate to become secretary of state in a new Democratic administration. (Mr. Talbott called the Kagan article magisterial, in what amounts to a public baptism into the liberal establishment.)
Perhaps most significantly, Mr. Kagan and others have insisted on maintaining the link between modern neoconservatism and its roots in muscular Cold War liberalism. Among other things, he has frequently praised Harry S. Trumans secretary of state, Dean Acheson, drawing a line from him straight to the neocons favorite president: It was not Eisenhower or Kennedy or Nixon but Reagan whose policies most resembled those of Acheson and Truman.
Other neocons have followed Mr. Kagans careful centrism and respect for Mrs. Clinton. Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, noted in The New Republic this year that it is clear that in administration councils she was a principled voice for a strong stand on controversial issues, whether supporting the Afghan surge or the intervention in Libya.
And the thing is, these neocons have a point. Mrs. Clinton voted for the Iraq war; supported sending arms to Syrian rebels; likened Russias president, Vladimir V. Putin, to Adolf Hitler; wholeheartedly backs Israel; and stresses the importance of promoting democracy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/are-neocons-getting-ready-to-ally-with-hillary-clinton.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=1
Is that what she means about "wooing republicans" and "taking a more assertive stance toward the global crisis?"
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)it's the opinion of one man/writer, Jacob Heilbrunn, editor of the National Interest and the author of They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)with evidence from other posts. She is responsible for hiring Kagan's wife Victoria Nuland as Assistant Sec of State. Nuland is responsible for most of shit happening the Ukraine right now.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)I'm questioning you attributing it to the NYT when it's Heilbrunn doing the noticing. If the NYT were doing the noticing, the article would be an Editorial, not an opinion piece by someone not even on the Time's staff.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Apparently any negative hit piece from anyone is acceptable. I even saw a post that was later self-deleted, from an excerpt of Ed Klein's latest work of fiction about the Obamas and Clintons.
cali
(114,904 posts)bigtree
(85,986 posts). . . conflated this article with Klein's at the bottom of the post.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)People, who think Hillary's progressive enough, need to know this.
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)wife Victoria Nuland as Assistant Sec of State? Don't claim Victoria shouldn't be blamed for her husband beliefs, when she has pushed intervention in Syria and Iraq. Already there are people claiming she is strong on foreign policy, when in fact she is quite weak, and her foreign policy beliefs will hurt her like they did last time.
bigtree
(85,986 posts). . .are you not aware of the intense republican campaign trying to tie Nuland to whatever they're accusing Clinton of in Benghazi?
. . . it's some political pretzeling to claim Nuland is a tool of the republicans at the same exact time they're screaming from the rooftops that she's a tool of some dangerously liberal foreign policy..
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)why do you consider it right wing propaganda to link Nuland and Clinton to her husband, Robert Kagan? Why do you consider and article about neocon Kagan praising Clinton, which he quite plainly did, in the liberal interventionist flagship "The New Republic" propaganda and a hit piece? Unless you can take issue with the facts in the article, why complain. She is a neocon sympathetic dem. Wear it with pride!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)bigtree
(85,986 posts). . .with little actual fact to go with all of their broad assumptions and claims. In the olden days, we regarded this as flamebait. Those with dim memories of past political skirmishes latch onto opposition-generated bait like this and appropriate it into their own campaigns.
It's an easy hook which has very little resemblance, to folks who know the score, to Hillary's actual strategy or record. Clinton has one of the most liberal records among her Democratic peers; has an overall record that is mostly in line with the most progressive of her legislative colleagues. This article is only believable if you buy into the memes around here that have her voting and acting like an Eisenhower republican.
consider her voting record provided by the Left Coaster:
1.1 Consistent with observations (and caveats) in Part 1 of this series, outside of national security and war, Sen. Clinton gets high-to-very-high progressive scores almost across the board. In short, her voting history reflects a very high consistency of voting with a majority of the most progressive Senators in Congress across a multitude of issues - especially those concerning corporate interests. This does not, in any way, mean that she never voted badly - of course she has done so, but on the whole she voted far more in sync with the most progressive members of Congress than otherwise . . .
1.2 When we look at the overall Progressive Punch score for Sen. Clinton, it is apparent that on the whole, she voted more progressively and more in sync with the most progressive Democrats in the Senate (92%) than did Sen. Obama (90%). Now, granted there is likely to be some noise in the data - so, let's be somewhat conservative in our assessment and say that she was at least as progressive overall in her voting pattern as Sen. Obama.
1.3 Although the Far Right would love to try and make Sen. Lieberman and Sen. Clinton seem like twins separated at birth, Sen. Lieberman's voting record is nothing like Sen. Clinton's in the majority of categories. Sen. Lieberman broke with the most progressive Senators far more frequently than Sen. Clinton did and voted with the GOP far more frequently than Sen. Clinton did. Clearly, we can't look at his voting record and conclude that he has a "solid" progressive record overall. For example, on labor rights he is at 58% to Sen. Clinton's 91% progressive score according to Progressive Punch.
On corporate subsidies he is at 67% to Sen. Clinton's 100% progressive score. On war and peace his progressive score is at an abysmal 48% (more than 1 in 2 votes with the GOP and against the most progressive Democrats!) compared to Sen. Clinton's 80% - which in turn is just slightly lower than Sen. Obama's (86%) scores on war and peace. Indeed, on human rights and civil liberties, Sen. Clinton has the highest score at 82%, slightly ahead of Sen. Obama (77%).
view the tables here: http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php
(comparison to Lieberman was just the politics at the time of the survey.)
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)good at one point, so I don't take them seriously. You can do alot of bullshitting with stats if you leave certain criteria out. More importantly. What fact in the article do you take issue with? I am really interested.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)That is a pretty good definition of her.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Just numbers next to buzz phrases like "Overall Progressive Score" or "Government Checks on Corporate Power" without any description of what those phrases mean and no analysis of how the scores were determined.
Meaningless.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)A right-wing type who hosts on his blog a number of Romney operatives and hard right columnists.
The technical term for what he is doing here is 'stirring shit', and he figures if he can get some leftists or progressives to step in it, he will have helped Romney or some other Republican.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)Maybe it is because he likes her foreign policy. Yah think? You act as if liberal interventionists don't revolve the door for their buddies the neocons, when it is clear that they do. Look at Kagan's wife Victoria Nuland.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)It is, as I said, an attempt to stir trouble on the left, in hopes some 'divide and conquer' juju will help one of his own in 2016.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)We have primaries. She is too conservative for me. People are not obligated to not criticize Hillary.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)And odds are pretty good at this point the country will elect Mrs. Clinton its President in 2016.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)so who cares! That is what you said in 2008.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)It seemed to me there was so little difference between the actual positions and orientations of Sens. Clinton and Obama that most of the vitriol between their supporters was artificial, whipped up to let people feel there was a great difference.
I also observed that there was an element which ranged itself with Sen. Obama here, and quite vociferously, not because they actually agreed with him or supported him, but because he was a vehicle they could employ to vent their long-standing hatred of Sen. Clinton. Once Sen. Obama looked likely to win election, many of these people turned on him, and now spend a good deal of time attacking him in exactly the terms and tones they formerly did in attacking Sen. Clinton.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)This isn't not a horse race. There is no reason to support them if their policies suck. They are not worthy of supporting just because they're democrats, apart from their policies. Obama did disappoint me, but no one else came forward to challenge him, and he is still less hawkish than Hillary would have been. Warren has more of a progressive track record than Obama or Hillary at this point, in 2008. I won't apologize in the least for rejecting her twice.
In other words. That is your opinion and so what!
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Whether here under another name, or elsewhere.
I like Sen. Warren a great deal. I see no reason to expect she will run for President. I think Sen. Sanders may make a run, within the Democratic Party primary, and would welcome it, as I think the country would benefit from greater exposure to him, and that the eventual general campaign in 2016 would benefit from the response his views would receive.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)our problem with both candidates has no basis in reason. I hate her policies.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 10, 2014, 02:32 AM - Edit history (1)
exact same thing.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)observation.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Of your own behavior, of how you appear to others, of anything at all....
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Chanting 'strawman' 'ad hominem' 'false dichotomy' and the like does nothing but amuse onlookers; it does not even frighten the horses....
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)Are "Sirs" men the only ones worth addressing? If I were talking to an anonymous person I would not default to a male form of address. Why can' t you be more gender neutral?
Atman
(31,464 posts)They WANT her. Corporate media and the defense/banking industries WANT HER. She is perfect! She'll piss off the GOP base ('I ain't gonna take no orders from no wimmen folk!') while kow towing to corporate/military industrial interests. Can we please stop letting the corporate news rooms choose our president for us?
reddread
(6,896 posts)I think we know how this ends.
Atman
(31,464 posts)...so I can't possibly know how this ends. I'm assuming you're a super Pro-Hillary person who doesn't like the fact that I'd even consider casting doubt. Am I right?
I envision myself more like one of those people who actually wait for all things political to play themselves out. Maybe Ms. Clinton is involved. Maybe she's not.
Oh, never mind...we all know how this ends.
reddread
(6,896 posts)just dont take the media's machinations as clearcut. thats all we are both saying,
I think.
Atman
(31,464 posts)Pass the bong
reddread
(6,896 posts)whatever.
mylye2222
(2,992 posts)I had already high doubts about her corporate inclinations. Thats just a confirmation. ..
bigtree
(85,986 posts). . . as the platform for your own political attacks on Hillary.
Impressive.
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)God Save Queen Hillary!
bigtree
(85,986 posts)Yup RT @nationaljournal: The media's made-up catfight between @HillaryClinton and @SenWarren http://bit.ly/1m9FJo6
On Sunday, Edward Klein wrote what was supposed to be an explosive story in The New York Post setting up the "blood feud" between the Obamas and the Clintons in 2016 . . . In his Post story, Klein reports that Obama "quietly promised" to fully support Warren if she decided to run for president, and instructed Valerie Jarrett to "conduct a full-court press to convince Warren to throw her hat into the ring."
On Monday, the Wall Street Journal alley-ooped Klein's thesis with its own story positing that Clinton is trying to distance herself from the Obamas "in tone and substance." The evidence? A less cheery tone about the economy, and this money quote:
This type of sourcing is completely irrelevant and guaranteed not to produce any real news, just pot shots (it's not Whalen's fault; if you give a mouse a cookie, etc.) But the narrative that Klein et al are crafting is basically Dems In Disarray, 2.0a narrative that relies on reports from both conservative and liberal voices that are short on facts and long on speculation.
Media Matters has called Klein a "smear peddler" and a "conspiracy theorist," and points out that even conservative pundits like Brian Kilmeade, Rush Limbaugh and James Taranto have called Klein's sourcing into question.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/the-media-s-made-up-catfight-between-hillary-clinton-and-elizabeth-warren-20140707
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)so why is this my problem? I posted several well documented stories on Hillary's support for neocons and their policies, particularly to Nuland and her husband Robert Kagan.
bigtree
(85,986 posts). . . at the bottom of your post.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)they better put up a better candidate than Hillary.