"Nit-picking about language"

[BainsBane]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Sissyk (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Tue Jul 15, 2014, 11:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Those of you interpreting the recent controversy over AAO's banning as about "Nit-picking about language" are missing the point. Had the discussion remained about "a woman scorned," he would still be here among us. Lots of alerts fail on far more offensive posts every single day. What this controversy is about is the completely abusive PM he then sent to a female member: He directly insulted her with the ugliest word that exist in English to refer to women and then topped that off by telling her she should perform a sex act on him.

Now we see posts about word police and ideological purity. So let's be honest about this here. What exactly is it those of you making that argument are complaining about? Are you upset that a member was PPR'd for the PM he sent Cali? Because to pretend this is all about the phrase "a woman scorned" is a willful misreading of the situation. If you are going to cry language police, at least be honest about the language you are defending.

This incident, however, does show that members who comment on gendered use of language know something about what they are saying. AAO's use of "a woman scorned" signaled an underlying antagonism toward women, as his subsequent PM proved incontrovertibly. Language is important in that it signals the user's thoughts. We all use unfortunate turns of phrase from time to time. Yet when we learn it is problematic, we reflect on that and try to do better. AAO insisted he should not. That, I think, said more about his character than the original phrase itself. Another person might say, "hey I hadn't thought of that. I didn't mean to offend. Let me edit it." He not only chose not to do so, but escalated the dispute into a full out misogynistic personal attack on another member.

Don't pretend this is about nit-picking minor turns of phrase. Read the PM he sent Cali in her OP about sexism on DU. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025243375 Make sure you know what you are arguing about.

[pinboy3niner]

1. Well said, BB

[sufrommich]

2. The PM was as violent as the one Seabeyond got.

I don't understand the need to dismiss any of it.Most of it is directed at outspoken feminists.

[BainsBane]

3. The comment to Seabeyond was actually in the open forums

She's gotten PMs as well, but the rape threat to her was in GD.

[sufrommich]

16. She's had so many nasty things said to her

I can't keep track of how it was said.Thanks.

[madinmaryland]

4. ...

Will Pitt is still here,

End of thread.

[irisblue]

33. I'm confused

Did Will Pitt threaten an anal rape? Please show me where that was. WP was truly wrong in his Obama post, but wishing rape is several steps above up from that obnoxious post

[Skittles]

58. no, he insulted an idol

[irisblue]

65. insult + anal rape are not close in shameful behavior

AAO was very wrong, William Pitt was wrong. There is a difference. Calling out a political figure and calling for anal rape via broomstick are different. Very different.

[Skittles]

66. well I know that

I'm not stupid

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. See #85 (nt)

[Spider Jerusalem]

67. Because this is JUST LIKE calling Barack Obama "a piece-of-shit used car salesman".

The person who got banned? Was also advocating the assassination of a Supreme Court Justice, in another thread (it's on his transparency page; one of his hidden posts).

I find it interesting that you seem to think that insulting the president is somehow worse than overt misogynist threats of violence directed at another forum member.

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. They may be referring to the earlier incident

EarlG
7. For the record

Edited on Tue May-11-10 12:50 AM by EarlG
Last night Will Pitt repeatedly threatened another member with physical violence. After the moderators deleted those messages he sent the threats again to the member via private message, during which he challenged the member to report his behavior to the moderators, implying that he would not be held accountable for his actions.

We don't enjoy banning people, particularly people who have been here a long time. WilliamPitt left us absolutely no choice in this matter. This is entirely his own fault and responsibility.

Locking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8308011&mesg_id=8308043

[kcr]

5. I agree. Those who are puffed up with outrage over the word policing

Aren't doing any favors to the argument that it isn't sexist.

[BainsBane]

6. Indeed

Quite the opposite.

[Generic Other]

7. What this person said to cali in the PM was shameful

and a form of assault. I do not think anyone would argue this fact. If they did, they should not be on DU. Period.

The discussion about word definitions is another matter. I don't think you should insinuate those who hold different opinions than yours about a matter of diction somehow defend AAO's attack in any way.

[BainsBane]

10. I am trying to clarify the situation

to make sure people know what it is this is about. I have seen a number of posts that tell me they have completely missed the point. I seek to make clear what is at issue and how that member earned his PPR.

[pnwmom]

11. I agree. It was a disgusting and violent verbal assault. No one like that should be here. n/t

[Squinch]

14. No one is insinuating any such thing.

[hrmjustin]

8. K&R!

[Marie Marie]

9. That PM was beyond disrespectful - both to a woman and

to a fellow DU-er. Disgusting!

[newcriminal]

12. While I have already expressed my feelings regarding the email cali received, and

I am glad I was one of the jurors that got him banned, I think the word policing on here goes overboard. I was once told the word lady is offensive.

[BainsBane]

20. Context matters

Last edited Wed Jul 16, 2014, 06:35 AM - Edit history (1)

In the case of AAO's PPR and in the use of any particular word. I have had lady used toward me in a way I knew was meant to offend. I didn't comment on the use of the word, but he made himself perfectly clear. Of course it was followed by a string of other insults.

This is a written format. We all communicate through words. Unlike in real life where so much communication is non-verbal, here we rely entirely on words. You may think the word policing goes too far. I think this incident shows that language, and how people respond to others' reactions to their use of language, says a great deal about who someone is. AAO used a sexist phrase and in short order proved himself a misogynist. His word choice reflected his views of women. Cali proved to be prescient in her response.

[newcriminal]

26. I think someone's reaction to other people's language shows a great deal about them.

If one gets offended at everything typed then they are looking to be offended. I refuse to live like that.

[BainsBane]

29. Again, it's about context

If you aren't offended by what Cali was called, that's your business. Most people interpret threats and insults as they are intended. Language exists for the purpose of communication. If you prefer not to pay attention, that's your choice.

[newcriminal]

31. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem,

as already pointed out in another thread. I was on the jury to get the guy banned. Are you paying attention?

[BainsBane]

35. Now you're being deliberately rude. I'm finished.

[BainsBane]

79. Do you have anything to contribute to this thread?

A response to my OP? Or any comments about the incident in question?

[EvilAL]

100. I usually only get offended when

someone actually offends ME and that is rare. I don't get offended for other people. Sometimes people get offended for other people and start trouble over something that has fuck all to do with them. Someone gets into an argument on the internet and everyone gets upset about it or offended.. Seems kind of silly really. Why would I get offended over a PM some stranger sent to another stranger on the internet that was never intended for me? Makes no sense.

[BainsBane]

102. Are you saying you don't find that PM offensive?

[EvilAL]

105. It's mean and rude.

I deal with mean and rude people in real life all the time. I don't have time to get offended by strangers posting to each other on the internet. I don't think I have to be offended by it. Do you think I should be offended by it?

[seabeyond]

109. it is a discussion board. we are discussing an issue. what is the problem with that?

[EvilAL]

117. It is not a problem for me at all,

I joined in the discussion by giving my thoughts on what I think about getting offended for other people. What is the problem with that?

[geek tragedy]

111. If you have an ounce of empathy, yes. nt

[redqueen]

114. If you see someone using racist or homophobic slurs, do you find that offensive?

Whether in person or in a news story or online or whatever.

Do you find sexism, racism, and homophobia offensive?

[EvilAL]

119. This isn't about any of those things.

It is about getting offended for somebody else.

[redqueen]

125. Cali received a hateful, misogynist PM. Do you find misogyny offensive?

Whether In print, online, in person, etc?

[EvilAL]

128. In person I can do something about it.

Say for example, I can punch someone in the face if they say that shit to my wife, if she doesn't punch them first.
Online, no, I have been on this shit since 98, I have read and argued with too many people to care about any of that shit anymore. I just don't like the assumptions that if I am not offended over an internet stranger getting a vile PM that I did something wrong.

[redqueen]

130. Do you think punching someone teaches them anything?

Because I can tell you with 100% certainty that people learn from these online discussions.

Perhaps you need to rethink your idea of what defines a warranted and meaningful reaction.

[EvilAL]

132. I used it as an example

of getting offended for someone else, my wife in this case. I don't have to rethink anything. Everyone is free to post here and make their opinions known. My opinion is that one person getting a vile PM doesn't mean that everyone has to be offended by it. I don't like it and I'm glad the person is gone, the system works.

[redqueen]

133. Your opinion is that people don't have to be offended by misogyny.

We know that very well. I'm sure we all know people who don't find many types of bigotry offensive.

[EvilAL]

137. Listen,

you don't have a clue what my opinion is on misogyny. You can sit there and type all day, making shit up about what I, an internet stranger, might be thinking. It won't offend me. I don't have to be offended by anything. It doesn't make me less of a person. I can be against something without getting fucking outraged everytime someone posts something I don't like. So please, continue with your accusations, I am confident that I can handle them.

[redqueen]

145. I'm just going by what you say here.

My opinion is that one person getting a vile PM doesn't mean that everyone has to be offended by it.

That PM was misogynist hate speech so plain that no one save a total idiot could miss it.

Therefore, when you say "that doesn't mean that everyone has to be offended by it" - you're saying people don't have to be offended by misogyny.

[EvilAL]

151. No. That's not what I am saying.

I am saying people shouldn't be told what is offensive to them. It doesn't mean I wouldn't be offended by it or that the person receiving the PM shouldn't be offended by it. If you want to get offended by the words of an internet asshole go right ahead. I'm not trying to stop anyone from being offended.

[redqueen]

156. People on a progressive message board shouldn't have to be told to be offended by bigotry. nt

[EvilAL]

159. People anywhere shouldn't be TOLD to be offended by anything.

Maybe I need to read the rules for the site again, but I can't remember it saying that you have to be offended because other people are.
Not being offended by something is a passive stance. It doesn't mean someone agrees with the offender. That is what you do not understand.

[redqueen]

161. What you don't seem to understand is that this isn't just about being offended.

I don't know why you're so obsessed with the idea of being offended and whether you are or not or why you think it is so important that you need to go around telling everyone just how not offended you are by bigotry, and frankly I really don't care.

What you need to understand is that calling out bigotry is the only way to ensure that people stop reinforcing it. Passively standing by and wishing those calling out bigotry would shut up is not something to proudly crow about.

[EvilAL]

163. This whole thread started from my response about being offended for other people.

I didn't say bigotry didn't offend me, I said I'm not offended for other people. It was a personal attack through private message and the fucker was banned.. what more do you want?
Maybe it's you that is obsessed with the idea of being offended.

[redqueen]

171. Yeah.... ok. You're not making a lick of sense so I'm out. nt

[seabeyond]

175. it unraveled a while ago, he could say he didnt like, we just couldnt say offensive. i hear ya. nt

[seabeyond]

135. you do not like it. i dont either. that seems to be fine. it seem 'offended" is what offends

you to the point, you had to share, and repeat a number of times.

it seems you approve if the poster says, they do not like what was wrote. or that they are glad the offender was ppr'ed. just cant be offended by it, without hearing from you, that is, what? bothersome? perplexing? wrong?

your argument unravels.

[EvilAL]

141. yeah,

we'll just all get offended for everyone else over everything that is offensive to someone else. What a wonderful world it would be. You miss the point that I didn't do anything wrong by saying I don't get offended by what internet strangers say to each other.
Are there levels or a list I can see to make sure I don't get offended for the wrong reasons? Just give me a top 10 reasons I should get offended for other people on the internet. Maybe just 5 will do.

[cali]

184. I am offended by ALL bigotry.

It's wrong. When I see it, I'm offended. And I speak out and try and do something about it. Doesn't seem like a radical stance to me. It's just common sense.

[BainsBane]

149. Yet you're here, arguing with us

about why you don't find it offensive. You could just as easily take a position in opposition to misogyny.

[EvilAL]

153. I said none of that.

Yet you are here, arguing with me, about what I should find offensive.

[BainsBane]

167. OMG. It is not about you

It is about how Cali was treated and the sexism and misogyny that festers when people decide they don't care enough to speak out. Of course you won't be offended. The poster didn't attack you, and he wouldn't have ever threatened you with rape. You aren't a woman.

The only issue is if equality matters enough to you to care about how women are treated. You've made clear that you do not. Point made.

[BainsBane]

122. The issue isn't whether you are personally offended

It's not about you. It is that the comments themselves are abusive and hateful. That sort of behavior has no place among this online community. I would hope everyone would agree with that rather than dismissing it as inconsequential.

[EvilAL]

124. I'm not arguing against the tombstone

or that it was a disgusting PM.

[thucythucy]

168. And yet here you are taking time out of your busy day

to post about how you don't have time to get offended about PMs sent to fellow DUers.

We all make time for things we find important. I happen to think one DUer threatening another with anal rape is worthy of at least some fraction of my time, but then too I've made a personal (and financial) commitment to this forum. So I'm concerned when community standards are threatened.

I'm sorry you deal with so many mean and rude people in your real life. But on DU we have, and should, come to expect a higher standard of personal communication that doesn't include threats of rape.

Personally, I don't find empathy all that time consuming.

Edited to add: took me less than a minute to make this post.

[uppityperson]

196. I think any decent human would be offended by that pm. You are right that "people shouldn't be told.

"people shouldn't be told what is offensive to them". Decent humans would not need to be told that that pm was offensive.

"Not being offended by something is a passive stance. " Are you saying you don't care if someone is so offensive? "I'm not offended for other people". Do you mean you don't care what anyone does or says so long as it isn't toward you?

What do you mean, you don't get offended by this sort of crap? It was "not nice" but not directed at you so why should you care?

[sufrommich]

106. " I don't get offended for other people"

That may be the dumbest comment I've seen here in a long time.

[EvilAL]

113. Really?

I have seen people get offended on here 'for other people' even when the person wasn't offended in the first place. Someone still chimes in and say THEY are offended at a comment towards someone else. Usually the comments are fairly benign and not hideable or ban-worthy, yet, someone has to get offended and start a pile of crap.

[geek tragedy]

110. So, by your standard straight white Christian men wouldn't be offended by the KKK,

Westboro Baptist Church, Holocaust denial, etc.

Good thing most people have empathy.

[EvilAL]

115. I don't like the KKK, WBC, Nazis

or whatever you can try to come up with. I have empathy and care about a lot of things, but not to the point that I have to get offended about strangers posting on the internet about it.

[geek tragedy]

116. you just said you don't get offended about bigotry directed at anyone but yourself

seems like a rather Randian approach to things.

[EvilAL]

121. I think it is offensive to be told what is offensive to me,

I also think it is offensive to try to put words in my post that I didn't type. I don't expect anyone else to be offended by it for me.

[geek tragedy]

126. so your point was to tell everyone you weren't offended

by a rape threat sent to a woman here.

gotcha.

[EvilAL]

131. I think it is a violation of the rules and the tombstone was justified.

I don't know what you are trying to say here? I said none of those things.

[alp227]

150. Seriously? Where's your moral conscience?

Fuck you in the ass with a broom handle, then kneel down and swallow my cock. You are a VERY sorry excuse for a woman.

source

If that's not morally repugnant I don't know what is!

[EvilAL]

157. I don't think it was a nice thing to PM

and nobody should have to read that shit. Do I have to be outraged and offended about it? no.

[alp227]

166. So why parse it like that,

denouncing the message without being "outraged and offended about it"?

[seabeyond]

173. good to know it is "not nice" anyway. lol. nt

[cali]

187. "not nice". wow. that's some strong language you're using. You really ought to tone it down.

I do think it says something about you that a rape threat is something you characterize as "not nice".

[alp227]

71. So can you explain why one should NOT be offended at things that AAO wrote like

Cali - you are a cunt. Wallow in your pussy juice you whore!

Fuck you in the ass with a broom handle, then kneel down and swallow my cock. You are a VERY sorry excuse for a woman.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025243375

[newcriminal]

88. No I can not. What is your point?

Did you bother to read my posts?

[alp227]

148. OK, I see you did vote to hide AAO's post.

But why are you so concerned about word police?

[LanternWaste]

95. Much as many others may refuse to live pretending that the back-handed compliments are righteous...

"I refuse to live like that..."

Much as many others may refuse to live pretending that the back-handed compliments and clever implications are righteous in intent. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

Much as, when one maintains the pretense that nothing typed is in fact, offensive, then they are in fact, blind. Many refuse to live like that.

[seabeyond]

98. the men using this giggle, laugh, chuckle, in the womans face. they wink, jab in the rib

and pat each other on the back, when using comments like this toward women. it is obvious they are just lovin' using this crap, and yet....

women do not get they are being insulted and laughed at, in the face.

whatever. lol

[LanternWaste]

140. Over and over again we're presented with melodrama pretending to be a premise

Over and over again we're presented with melodrama pretending to be a premise, e.g. "those people who want to be offended by everything they read" but are never presented with actual, objective evidence. Seems a rather hysterical, shrill and, dare we say it? overly-emotional way for them to frame their argument...

[seabeyond]

183. the hypersensitive anti censorship people? lol. nt

[hfojvt]

27. not entirely on words

[whathehell]

180. Funny, the only complaints I hear on "word policing" are about those that insult women..

I never hear anyone here complaining about the "policing" of slurs against Gays or minorities.

Funny, that...

[newcriminal]

181. That's easy, I don't hear minorities or gays on DU

policing every word on here. I have very rarely seen anyone telling someone on here their remarks are racist or anti homosexual. I can not come on DU without seeing several posts everyday saying the posts are misogynist. Some of the posts I do believe are misogynistic, but a lot of posts I do not.

[whathehell]

200. LOL..Not as easy as you think..

Do you know WHY you "don't hear minorities or gays on Du policing every word here"?...Because

they don't NEED to -- Insults to minorities and gays are SPECIFICALLY banned by DU Rules --

Not so with gender slurs..Those are generally more "open" to interpretation.

As Nation writer Katha Pollitt put it "Misogyny is the last accepted bigotry of the Left".

[niyad]

13. well said, indeed. I just saw this whole thing, and am sickened by what that poster sent to

cali. there are days I think I have been accidentally switched to some other site.

[JustAnotherGen]

154. Sometimes I question

The company I keep. Glad to see in writing someone else read that and feels the same way - And who double checks the URL on occasion.

[Salviati]

15. Agreed. He wrote himself a coupon for a free tombstone pizza with that PM.

Glad it got delivered promptly.

[conservaphobe]

17. Number of Words in the English Language: 1,025,109.8

http://www.languagemonitor.com/number-of-words/number-of-words-in-the-english-language-1008879/

There's always a better way to say something.

[Spazito]

99. Exactly! n/t

[lonestarnot]

18. The true colors were in the pm. Proclivity for ignorance.

[William769]

19. You won't see me "Nit picking about language"

[Comrade Grumpy]

21. That guy's PM was vile and atrocious. His instant tombstone was appropriate.

I'll leave the nit-picking about language for another day.

[BainsBane]

23. wise move

[newcriminal]

28. Like this post right here.

This sounds like a threat to me. Should I be offended? I'm not and you might not have meant it that way, but that is how I read it.

[cali]

188. pick a better example. that was surpassingly lame.

[newcriminal]

190. I think this was a fine example.

Was it meant to be a threat? i don't know. She never answered me. Again the post didn't offend me, but I can see how someone could be offended if it was directed to them.


There was a post on here the other day regarding some idiot saying they could beat Hillary (obviously they meant they could defeat her) and some women were all upset about that. Give me a break, I think it makes us (women) look really silly when we do this. Then when there is something as disgusting as what happened yesterday it belittles it. (OH what are these women screaming about now)

Again to anyone reading this that didn't read my previous posts: What happened yesterday to cali was disgusting and I was on the jury that helped get him banned.

[hfojvt]

24. I like to nit-pick

you eliminate a lot of future lice that way

"Language is important in that it singles the user's thoughts."

Signals

But you are making a defense for mind-reading, and reading between the lines. Which I think is dangerous. And also bullsh*t. Instead of having an honest, respectful discussion, we end up playing a game of j'accuse. Where anything you say can and will be twisted to really mean something nefarious.

"aha, you used the word 'nefarious'. Yup, that tells me everything I need to know about you."

[BainsBane]

25. No, I'm not

Thanks for the grammar correction. Now read for content.

[hfojvt]

30. yes you are

Anybody for ping pong?

And what did I say about "an honest, respectful discussion".

Your reply went straight for the disrespect.

I do remember a paper I wrote in graduate school and after four comments about the grammar I perhaps fidgeted or sighed because Professor Hayden said something like "I will make some comments about the ideas".

[BainsBane]

38. attributing arguments to me I did not make is not a respectful discussion

All I can do is repost the pertinent portion to you. If you aren't interested in what I wrote, there is nothing I can do about that.

Language is important in that it signals the user's thoughts. We all use unfortunate turns of phrase from time to time. Yet when we learn it is problematic, we reflect on that and try to do better. AAO insisted he should not. That, I think, said more about his character than the original phrase itself. Another person might say, "hey I hadn't thought of that. I didn't mean to offend. Let me edit it." He not only chose not to do so, but escalated the dispute into a full out misogynistic personal attack on another member.

[zeemike]

44. I can read your mind.

Dangerous because it is open season for a fight...you offended me you bastard...you said bastard I find that offensive...and on we go.
But we need a theme song as we go...I suggest this.

[laundry_queen]

32. I'm going to go off on a tangent here.

It reminds me of the issue I have with friends of mine when I complain about how my parents treated me when I was growing up.

My parents are narcissists. They are very subtle narcissists, but narcissists nonetheless. Growing up, from the outside, our family looked like a close, loving family. My friends just LOVED my mother. LOVED her. Wished they had a mom who was that cool. I was well taken care of, well fed, had a nice room, nice toys etc.

However, my parents were absolutely, insidiously, emotionally abusive and damaging (with a bit of physical abuse thrown in there). I dealt with mind games, gas lighting, micromanaging and covert insults all delivered with a smile and a sing song voice.

I didn't even recognize this as an issue until 4.5 years ago. Going through a divorce, one of my kids was acting out so I took her to the best child psychologist in the area. As part of the therapy, I had to undergo some sessions as well.

Well, let's just say 5 minutes with that psychologist changed my life. She summed up the issue succinctly.

I went online and did some searching. Well, holy shit, my parents were clearly narcissistic. I found others whose parents were the same way. We discussed all the myriad of ways we had to deal with daily crazymaking thanks to our 'loving' parents.

I read dozens of books and did a lot of research. I learned to recognize certain turns of phrases, certain behaviors, certain actions for what they were - manipulation. And once I knew what to look for - it was SO predictable. So INCREDIBLY predictable that I couldn't ignore it any longer.

When I would try to explain to my friends, they would give me this blank look that said they didn't get how what I said was a bad thing. For instance, my mom has made comments about my weight, always comments about fat people, always points out who has gained weight or lost weight and then attaches morality judgments to it. So when I moved back after my divorce she offered to help me lose weight by exercising with me. My friends would say, "how is it bad that your mom wants to help you get in shape?" and I couldn't quite explain it. It's a manipulation. It's a subtle put down. And when I let her 'get away with' saying that one thing, it leads to another thing. She'll then feel like she can start commenting on every morsel entering my mouth, pontificating about how SHE would never eat such utter crap (item: what I was eating was a salad with salad dressing). Then it starts up with how every pain or illness I have must, MUST be related to my weight.

That's just 'the weight thing'. Every subject with my mother turns into a mind game full of subtle put downs and is an exercise in controlling behavior.

Still, my friends, even when they do 'get it' aren't able to recognize the behavior in other people. I can recognize manipulative behavior and language a mile away thanks to my recent epiphany. Once you see it you can't unsee it.

I see the subject of sexism in the same way here at DU. Some of us have BTDT and so we can really recognize the subtle phrases used that signal a start to a certain type of behavior that often leads to the type of outburst that happened to cali today. Yet, there are still people around who can't see it because it hasn't happened to them or they don't care to be aware of it. Those are the same type of people as the acquaintances I have that say, "Oh, your mom would never do THAT! She's SUCH a nice lady! I just love her!" They just don't get it. They don't get that the one phrase, word, action is a precursor to a particular behavior and that those of us who have been at the receiving end of such behavior can usually see it coming a mile away. Why people choose not to see it or prefer not to believe it (or even defend it) is something I'll never understand.

[Spazito]

36. Well said! n/t

[BainsBane]

39. "Once you see it you can't unsee it"

Exactly. The people going on about being offended at everything miss the point. Language conveys meaning, and those of us familiar with feminism, racism, and/or discourse analysis may see things others do not. I saw AAO's OP before Cali commented. I recognized it as sexist, but that doesn't mean it offended me. I simply saw it. I chose not to comment because I can hardly comment on every sexist thing I see around here. Besides, few care. If something really bothers me, I am more likely to take it to HOF where people do care. I understand completely Cali's reaction, and of course she was right. It was sexist. She saw what others insist on not seeing. That in itself would have been of no particular note had AAO not insisted on escalating the conflict to more fully express himself.

Sounds like you had some fantastic results from your therapy. Good for you!

[Starry Messenger]

41. That's not a tangent at all. You put it all into context perfectly.

[zeemike]

54. I am so sorry to hear you had such a bad life experience.

And I knew someone who grew up under the same circumstances as you, and the pain of it was still there.
And you should not expect your friends to get it...they can't because they have their own life experiences that are not all good, and so they imagine that yours must be better.

And it is true that you have first to recognize a problem before you can be free of it, but there is danger in understanding how it works, and that is you start seeing it everywhere...that is normal with most people.
So you must start learning that not every action you see in the world is intended to be harmeful...balance is the key to a good life...and your life with your parents was out of balance...to much criticism and control and not enough love and freedom...so balance is the solution.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. Or maybe she's not seeing it more often than when it's actually there.

Your post reads as if you're trying to dismiss her ability to detect this behavior properly. I'm fairly certain that was not your intent, just letting you know that on first read it comes across that way.

[zeemike]

89. What can I say?

If you are a witch hunter every action is going to look like witcraft...I said what I said and you can find fault in it I am sure...after all I am the enemy, and the enemy never says something without harmful intent.

[redqueen]

108. Enemy? Why the hyperbole?

Nobody is hunting witches. We are pointing out misogynist messages in language.

People tying themselves in knots trying to avoid facing the facts are saying something about themselves. The saying that kicked this off is sexist, and there is no getting around that fact. It's too bad that sexism is so ingrained in our subconscious that most sexist messages don't even register as such but only by raising awareness of these things can we change things for the better.

[seabeyond]

112. my boys are not tied to these sayings. when i point out, woman scorned, or all women liars,

they have no problem at all saying, .... well ya. lol. not the end of the world. not a big deal. kinda a duh.

our generation, you would think we are kicking a kitten.

all my boys lives, i have been pointing out the conditioning thru advt, media, religion.... everywhere. this is not different.

[redqueen]

118. "our generation, you would think we are kicking a kitten."

No shit.

It's really something, isn't it?

[seabeyond]

120. you have a saying men love to use at women, to bond with peers, to laugh, giggle, wink, pat each

other on the back when using it at women. oh, so funny.

and women laughing at being insulted in the face, defending these men. it is truly .... something.

i bet that gets another chuckle from the men.

[zeemike]

143. Because meta posts deserve hyperbole.

But witch hunt is not all that hyperbolic...they did the same thing at the inquision...examiining every word the target said to identify the witchcraft behind it.

Martha Cory

The accusation of Martha Corey marked a turning point in the Salem witch trials crisis of 1692 in Massachusetts. Corey was a newly accepted member of the village church and broke the established mold of only social pariahs being accused of practicing witchcraft. Major contributing factors to the case being brought against her were an illegitimate son born to Corey in the 1670s, and her outspoken criticisms of the trials and the judges involved in the convictions. Although Martha espoused her innocence throughout her whole ordeal, she was put to death on September 22, 1692...

A second contributing factor, perhaps even more important than her illegitimate son, was Corey's vehement, and public, denunciations of the witch trials and the judges involved in hearings. From the beginning, Corey was skeptical about even the existence of witches. In an encounter with a member of the Putnam family, Martha stated that she "did not think there were any witches" in New England and believed that she could" open the eyes of the church to the truth about non-existence of the devil himself. Corey was also critical of the afflicted girls themselves. During her trial, she asked that the judges not believe the actions of the girls, and made similar claims throughout the Salem crisis as a whole. This fact combined with her questionable past made her an easy target for the afflicted girls. By accusing her, the Putnams demonstrated that they would willingly attack anyone who openly questioned their motives and authority.
http://salem.lib.virginia.edu/people?group.num=all&mbio.num=mb35

[redqueen]

146. It is hyperbole. No one is hunting anything. No one called anyone sexist

for using the sexist saying

However it is telling that he fought so hard against those who tried to tell him he was mistaken, and then - surprise, surprise - he lashes our with a violently misogynist attack.

So in that case, the person using the sexist saying, and who so adamantly refused to listen to anyone who disagreed, actually did deserve to be labeled as such. But no one called him that, and sought to prove it by "examining every word" he said

[zeemike]

164. Well FYI I don't even know who you are talking about.

And I don't care to learn more about what he was like or what he said that offended someone...don't care about that, but then I don't like soap operas ether and consider watching them a waste of time...so I don't keep up with who did what to whom.

But that "no one called you a " is an easy out...like a raciest would claim he is not one, because he did not use the N word...if you give the impression that you think someone is a (insert label) then it is passive aggressive in the least.

[redqueen]

172. Wow, nice job trying to turn it around.

Trying to expose sexist messages in sayings is like silly soap opera drama, and I don't care who uses sexist sayings!

But people who call out the insidious sexism in common sayings are actually accusing good upstanding people of being sexists! Just like evil witch hunters did to innocent women in the burning times!

Fucking hell.

[Gormy Cuss]

139. And if you wear a victim cap, every criticism seems like victimization.

I so clearly did not treat you as the enemy and gave you a chance to clarify what you meant.
Now it's clear that you meant it exactly as I read it the first time, that because she is now sensitized to certain language she must be oversensitized. That's patronizing and frankly, Fristing.

[zeemike]

158. Well of course you know it was hyperbole.

Hyperbole that is often used to emphasize a point as we often do in our language...I meant enemy in the sense that we must be against each other because one of us is a bad person that needs to have his mouth washed out with soap...and behind it all?...a label that once applied makes you a bad person...a scarlet letter among their betters.
Yes that is all hyperbole to make a point.

That post was meant as a sincere reach out to her...but you manage to read into it what you want to see...and all hands that reach out must be slapped away, because in their heart you know they are right and want to oppress you with their words.
But what ever...you stay in your camp and I guess I will have to stay in mine.

[Gormy Cuss]

162. So sorry that you're not interested in an actual discussion.

We'd be having a civil conversation here if not for the attempts to turn it into a personal attack.
Rest assured if I read your original statement to laundry queen that way, many others did too. Did I call you a bad poster? No. I asked you to clarify intent. That your actual intent is something that I disagree with is again part of a normal conversation.

[zeemike]

170. And I did clarify intent

Which you disagree with...I don't know how one can disagree with a stated intent...what you mean to say is you don't believe it was the true intent.

See how easy it is to pick apart what people say?

[Gormy Cuss]

177. And I disagreed once you did so.

Not with your intent, with your suggestion wrapped in the conclusion that because she knows how to read the cues, she's reading narcissism into situations where it's not there. That's a powerful assumption not based on evidence presented here, which is why I called it Fristing. Yes, there is the chance that could happen. A careful caution about it based on your own experiences would have been kind.

However, you wrote:

So you must start learning that not every action you see in the world is intended to be harmeful...balance is the key to a good life..

which in tense presumes that she hasn't learned this already. I asked you to clarify that because I really thought that you were trying to give helpful insight rather than assume.

You reply with this:

What can I say?

If you are a witch hunter every action is going to look like witcraft...I said what I said and you can find fault in it I am sure...after all I am the enemy, and the enemy never says something without harmful intent.

which pretty much repeats the presumption that she hasn't learned out to balance. That's based on nothing about l_q. It may be based on people you've known but that doesn't mean it's true for all similarly situated people. Presuming it with no basis is dismissive.

Then you call yourself "the enemy" as if that's the only possible explanation for people disagreeing with what your wrote. As my final word to you on this thread, let me suggest that you look for other reasons why your comment wasn't received with high-fives, like maybe it's because other DUers bring other experiences, knowledge, and opinions to the table. If someone isn't calling you the enemy, perhaps it's because they aren't regarding you as such.

[zeemike]

182. As powerful as the assumptions you make.

For instance the assumption that she knows how to read the "clues"...well I can read clues too...and I could read your clues if I wanted to...and say that your clues showed something about you no matter what you say is your intent.
But I don't...because my clue reading is far from perfect and I know I would make mistakes, and I should rightfully give you the benefit of the doubt.
So your powerful assumption is that she can read the clues and make no mistakes.
And the assumption that there was something dark in what I posted to her.

But this could go on forever with you finding more clues in what ever I say...so let's just drop it.
Consider yourself victorious in uncovering yet another misogynist or what ever you think is that I am...put me on the list and if I am already on it check it twice.

[Gormy Cuss]

185. If you don't want to read my comments to your posts, use the ignore button.

I didn't call you a misogynist. I made no assumptions about the other poster either, I simply am giving her the benefit of the doubt as I gave you.

[Solly Mack]

62. You explained it well.

I'm so sorry for what you've gone through.

[steve2470]

63. I'm so sorry all that happened to you

I'm glad you're healing now (or healed).

[betsuni]

84. I didn't realize my parents were narcissists

until my thirties. Suddenly I could clearly see every lie, every manipulation, as if discovering the "tell" of a gambler. It wasn't my imagination! I'd told my husband all about my family before he met them, but you know how that is, everybody thinks you're exaggerating. After we spent three days staying with my mother, the husband fell into some sort of walking coma and stopped speaking for an entire afternoon. I had to take him for a long walk and nurse him back to health with a few bottles of Red Hook ESB. My mother fooled most people, everyone LOVED her, but not him. His first words after coming out of his coma were, "You're right, your family is CRAZY."

[redqueen]

104. Excellent, excellent post. nt

[delrem]

34. It was a violent personal attack coming from a misogynist sociopath

using DU as gameboard to play out a sickness.
A person responding (in the link provided by the OP) likened the events to "bickering", and IMO that person is despicable too, sharing the exact same traits.

It's no more "simply about language" than heavy breathing phone stalkers are "simply about language". Language in use is always about something and those who feign some abstraction are cowards looking for other cowards to be complicit.

[Bonobo]

40. All Meta. All the time. nt

[cyberswede]

48. I see it as discussing the discussion.

Some people might find the conversation helpful.

There were a couple jurors who voted to leave the AAO post (the post that ultimately resulted in the nasty DUMail he sent to cali) who indicated they had learned something new about the phrase he used after reading some of the follow-up. Learning's good.

[Union Scribe]

87. And we all know the players even without a program

because it's the same frigging show every time.

[geek tragedy]

107. Yet, that is what brought you here from the other website. nt

[steve2470]

42. That was a well-deserved PPR

It wasn't in any gray zone, it was way over into the BAD zone. If I sent a PM like that to any woman on DU, I'd expect a very fast PPR.

[BainsBane]

43. I can't imagine it would occur to you

to send such a PM

[steve2470]

45. oh never in a trillion years

I am all in favor of SOME words being forbidden on DU, and he used a few that should be forbidden. I don't think the word bitch should be used here, unless you are referring to a female dog, but I'm in the minority apparently. There was NO nit-picking about that PM. The word bitch, apparently there is heated disagreement over. I have no problem with some words being stricken from this site, this is NOT Yahoo or YouTube or even Discussionist.

[BainsBane]

46. I've read enough of your posts to know what you're about

and you have nothing in common with that guy.

[steve2470]

47. yep, I was just using myself as an example which was not the best way to express myself

I'm more of a feminist than any woman I've met in years in my area. True story. I'm probably hanging with the wrong crowd, I need to change that.

[Blue_In_AK]

49. I find this banning entirely justified

just as I did when someone sent me a PM a couple years ago calling me a "Muslim fucking piece of shit." I get irritated with some of the language policing that happens here on occasion, but personal abuse should never be tolerated, whether out here in public or in private message.

[BainsBane]

50. I remember that

about your son-in-law, right? Truly awful.

[Blue_In_AK]

57. Yes, that was it.

When i read Cali's PM, I wondered if Jack Sprat had been reincarnated.

[bravenak]

51. I can't believe i missed it.

I just read through that post to Cali and it made me ill.

[BainsBane]

52. Well, the crib note version

Tons of people are flagged right now.

[bravenak]

53. Tons?!?

I thought it was just that one guy. Oh, my! I guess i have to read through the entire day to see whats up. Maybe we have some zombies up in here.

[bluestateguy]

55. The PM's were a bannable offense

But had I been on the jury I'd have voted to leave alone the "woman scored" remark.

[Jamaal510]

56. That nut (AAO) had more hides in 3 months

than I have had in 2 years here. Holy shit!

[BainsBane]

59. Most of those hides came after he was banned

actually.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. You DO realize that your post was proofread under a microscope. Right?

[BainsBane]

61. Yeah. It's okay

I can take it.

[LittleBlue]

64. Agreed, and I agreed with the jury that didn't hide the "scorned" OP

That message he sent to Cali was almost Freeper-ish in its hatred.

I'm just sad that the subsequent arguments have now gotten Cali and some other good DUers flagged for review.

[AuntPatsy]

68. Words matter, for some DUrs to pretend they do not seems a bit ironic considering

without them in some form or another there would be no true communication....sad day that not all are in agreement with the banning considering that sickening PM....

[BainsBane]

70. Have you seen anyone say they oppose the banning?

[AuntPatsy]

72. No, nor would I I would think if some had an ounce of common sense considering, but I have

absolutely seen some bounce around with words that if read with full context from start to finish definitely implied it in my opinion, I rarely post simply because I have found more times than naught I have a tendency to react without fully reading things through, in this particular case I have found myself absorbed in reading every single post regarding the present topic at hand....

[BainsBane]

73. Then you are more versed in it than I

I have not read all of the threads, particularly by some denouncing those who object to the original use of the woman scorned phrase because . . . well, like you I don't always react well, particularly toward posters whose arguments with which I am all too familiar. But I have wondered what the point of devoting so much energy to debating that original phrase is if there was not some other implication.

[AuntPatsy]

75. I find it a bit ironic that those arguing that words do not nor should not matter to someone at the

same time they fairly consistantly appear unable to realize that they are attempting to use words in order to be understood...

[BainsBane]

77. Those same people argue that everything feminists focus on is trivial

Or that talking about issues of concern to women, like rape and domestic violence, amounts to "playing the victim." Despite their protestations that they care about "real issues" of concern to women, such an issue seldom comes along. Either they had nothing to say about the Hobby Lobby decision or were actively engaged in telling women that it really wasn't that big of a deal. That was the final straw for me. I realized they have been full of it from the start. They probably believe what they tell themselves, but I do not.

[AuntPatsy]

78. Ive lost count of how many times I have heard in the case of rape, well its not really rape if

you have already had consensual sexual contact in the past with someone or clothing being an important point or in the case of domestic violence, well she deserves it, after all she is still there...these days such replies, well let me say ensures the speaker will be a bit more versed in facts instead of the so often used memos that have been filtered into our society for far too long in order to allow so many to simply shake their heads and walk away instead of standing strong for justice...

I've read as much as I have been able to in the last few months more than I have in quite some time, sickening what I have read from a few, but not unexpected either...

And I can agree to some extent that some honestly believe their own rhetoric simply because it is what they have grown used to...so sad...

[seabeyond]

91. ha. i was reading a poster state calling out makes a woman weak/victim as i watch her then call out

another poster as being sexist regarding replies to her.

so it seems. when she interprets things as sexist, it is a must to call out. when she does not see the sexism, a woman is weak/victim to speak out.

totally floored me.

[BainsBane]

103. I've noticed the same

in regard to offenses more generally. People make the comment that others are too easily offended by sexism, all while taking great offense at the most minor of comments. They show absolutely no sense of irony.

It's not so much that I am personally offended by sexism comments as I see sexism as an impediment to an egalitarian society. It is simply wrong. Why is that so hard for some to understand?

[redqueen]

123. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

It's not so much that I am personally offended by sexism comments as I see sexism as an impediment to an egalitarian society. It is simply wrong. Why is that so hard for some to understand?

VERY good question there.

[MadrasT]

138. It's not hard to understand.

Which leaves us with: some folks have no interest in moving toward an egalitarian society.

[kcr]

136. Yes, I noticed it too.

And the whole you don't speak for all women baloney as well. As women, they hate it when women think they speak for all women. Speaking as women, they are very much against that. Okay...

[BainsBane]

142. When no one actually claimed to speak for all women

but simply mentioned the word women. Meanwhile, they feel compelled to proclaim "I am a woman" in order to delegitimate the speech of women who dare object to sexism.

[pinboy3niner]

74. What's really ironic is all the nit-picking of a post on "Nit-picking about language." nt

[AuntPatsy]

76. Not at all, sometimes when a thread gets too long, many have a hard time keeping up by reading every

post attempting to explain certain positions, and as many have stated, context does matter along with those words in many instances, so extra threads bearing the same subject is actually an easier way to keep up and attempt a better understanding, wouldn't you think?

[pinboy3niner]

83. I think we are in agreement

Sorry if I didn't make it clear that my "nit-picking" comment wasn't directed at you or at BB, whose OP I rec'd as well as supported with my Reply #1.

[seabeyond]

90. anyone will recognize the conditioning fox does. but, touch one of their loves, and the argument

changes totally.

i cannot do contradiction like that for anything.

[redqueen]

127. Well said! People know very well how much language matters.

There are simply some areas (racism and misogyny) which many people will for whatever reason fight tooth and nail against acknowledging, let alone changing.

[Hofbrau]

80. The two issues aren't related...

[moriah]

81. Which two issues? n/t

[Hofbrau]

82. Word policing and the obviously inappropriate PM..

[redqueen]

129. Yes, they are. By not 'policing' sexist messages, we are contributing to the reinforcement of

the lower status of women in society.

Language matters.

[BainsBane]

144. I see.

Does that mean we should restrain other women, like Cali, from speaking out when they feel compelled? Or when someone like her chooses a battle, should we work diligently to muzzle her and other women "lest we not be taken seriously"? What makes you think your judgment over what is an important battle should matter to any of us?

I can tell you this. People that have a habit of telling women that issues they choose aren't important turn out to find no issue involving our lives consequential enough to be worth discussion or action, as we learned following the Hobby Lobby decision. All the people who complained we talked about unimportant things, whether language, rape, or violence against women, also decided a SCOTUS ruling establishing unequal treatment under the law for women also wasn't that big of a deal. it turned out they didn't see anything having to do with our lives and our rights as worth worrying about. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't care what you happen to think about the battles I choose.

[redqueen]

155. Women are not tense about message boards. Women are fed the fuck up with sexism.

ALL OF IT. Not just the forms that the average, unaware person recognizes

And if it bothers some so much to be informed then that's just too fucking bad.

Your posts here are belittling and ugly. Thanks for being an example.

[cyberswede]

160. ...

[seabeyond]

176. ya know. lol. nt

[BainsBane]

165. "None to be had"

Let's examine the PM:

Cali - you are a cunt. Wallow in your pussy juice you whore!

Mail Message
Fuck you in the ass with a broom handle, then kneel down and swallow my cock. You are a VERY sorry excuse for a woman.

Pardon my French! LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5243375

Is that what you describe as none to be had? It's hard for me to imagine anyone with any sense of decency not finding that offensive.


The goal is equality, an end to misogyny, an end to a climate in which men think it acceptable to treat women like AAO did Cali. If I have to persuade you that is a worthwhile battle, we have noting to discuss. Equality--ending racism, homophobia, misogyny--are basic liberal values. Either you share them or you don't. I don't control who you are. Only you determine that. I suggest you focus on that more than whether or not I am tense. I can take care of myself.

[seabeyond]

174. we have been doing it long enough to know, when "change minds and gain support"

is used, the close mind is already there. when told to pick the issue carefully, no issue is good enough to be discussed. and of course you meant to be critical, yet... Brava, the act of innocent. take a bow???

Either way I think you would be happier away from a keyboard for a while. You seem really tense about an Internet message board.

who are you and what games you play.

really? thru the nets, you can treat a poster as a child, and suggest a nap, cause too grouchy?

ya. brava, my ass. lol.

[el_bryanto]

92. Yes - that seems pretty clear. nt

[Romulox]

93. OK. But the fact that the member received a vile PM doesn't give her any special right

to dictate language here on DU.

[BainsBane]

94. And how do you suppose she is doing that?

By posting an OP giving her view?

Perhaps if you don't think of yourself as the the kind of guy who sends PMs like AAO did, you might consider leaving out some of the rest of his gender-based idioms as well?

[Romulox]

96. I could live 3 lifetimes, and I could never have authored that PM.

Perhaps if you don't think of yourself as the the kind of guy who sends PMs like AAO did, you might consider leaving out some of the rest of his gender-based idioms as well?

I have considered it. But I was not at all convinced by Cali's OP on the subject, especially the way it unraveled into abuse of any who dared disagree.

[BainsBane]

97. You of course can use any language you choose

Since the purpose of language is to communicate, it will be interpreted accordingly by readers. If you think Cali is the only person to see such phrases as sexist, you are mistaken.

[cali]

189. What abuse? Please point to anything in my op of yesterday on sexism that you found abusive

and where did I write the block quote you use in your post.

What weren't you convinced by in my OP?

Here's the OP:

editing to clarify. The IM was sent to me by one AAO, in response to this IM to him, from me:

Glad to see you self-deleted. I'm sorry that you don't grasp why the reference to Congreve's line is so sexist. Also, you seem to be confusing me with someone else. I'm frequently at odds with quite a few of the women here who are more involved in feminism than I.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't go after me in terms that insult people with psych disabilities. Those folks fight prejudice day in and day out. And I know. I worked protecting the rights of people with mental illness.

thank you.



I just got this message from a male DUe, AAO

Cali - you are a cunt. Wallow in your pussy juice you whore!

Mail Message
Fuck you in the ass with a broom handle, then kneel down and swallow my cock. You are a VERY sorry excuse for a woman.

Pardon my French! LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=inbox&view=1547856

Now for the context:

AAO posted an op riffing off the idiom, "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". By the time I joined the thread, someone had already alerted on the op because of this. The jury voted 7-0 not to lock. Here's the thread with my comments and his.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025242454

I'm posting this because I think it is indicative of a problem. AAO claimed to be an ally of women and yet anyone spewing this kind of hate toward women is clearly not an ally. I also found it problematic that there were some agreeing with him in that thread and that the jury clearly didn't know why this idiom is sexist and offensive.

This is pretty shocking to me- and I'm a tough nut

You found this abusive and unconvincing? That's a stretch- to put it mildly- and it makes quite uncomfortable when people mischaracterize something to that degree.

[Romulox]

191. I'm referring to the responses throughout the thread to people who disagreed with you.

There was no discussion. It devolved into abuse, imo.

and where did I write the block quote you use in your post.

It is a quote from the BB's message, to which I was responding. You know how this works.

[cali]

192. examples please. and context. In other words, what was I responding to.

I find YOUR posts re this, callous and off base. Your concern over my posts, lack of examples and totally ignoring the context- a vile, obscene rape threat to me, is quite disturbing- but I'm not surprised by it coming from you. I'm familiar with your posts and your frequent abuse.

[Romulox]

193. I've said my peace on the subject. I don't think it's fair to tar me with the contents of the PM

because I disagree with you on a separate topic.

[cali]

198. my pm? what are you talking about.

and yes, I'm offended by your posts in thread.

[Romulox]

199. That was a bad word choice. I apologize, and I edited. I am otherwise done here. nt

[cali]

194. which of course I wasn't doing. I was expressing my opinion. Just as YOU do.

not to "nitpick", but your use of language is sloppy. I never asked for any special rights. I wasn't granted any and I haven't dictated anything to anyone.

what you're doing is called fabricating.

Here's my opinion of that:



You get how that works, right?

[Romulox]

195. This is a good example of what I was talking about. nt

[cali]

197. really? If you think that's abusive, I question your understanding of the word.

and I note that you still haven't pointed out posts of mine in the original thread that you deem abusive. I find your nastiness to be abusive. I find it disturbing that you are clearly more upset by my posts than threats of rape and bodily harm to me. I think that's quite, quite ugly.

[merrily]

101. Those claiming nitpicking about words sure have my scorn.

Thanks for this post.

As usual, I missed the original incident and am trying to catch up, but the banning seems entirely warranted, to say the least.

My prediction: the poster will be back under a new name.

[JustAnotherGen]

152. Way behind on this but

Gaaaah - for Cali. That's just awful.

[thucythucy]

169. Well said. K & R.

[Sissyk]

201. Locking

Please review the SOP for General Discussion.

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.

Also, please see the other off topic issues that are currently getting locked.

Thank you!