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Astrad

(466 posts)
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 12:31 PM Dec 2011

Why so much concern with Ron Paul?

I notice an inordinate number of postings here everyday condemning Ron Paul. I don't doubt that there are many reasons to criticize Ron Paul as there are all of the other Republican candidates. But Paul gets signalled out for special attention in my view. There seems to be some fear that he could peal off a significant number of democrats who are attracted to his foreign policy positions. The condemnation of Paul almost seems orchestrated to me but of course I have no evidence for that.

Again, I'm not supporting Ron Paul nor ever would. He has many crazy policies and has clearly associated with racists if not being one himself (though of course he denies it.)

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why so much concern with Ron Paul? (Original Post) Astrad Dec 2011 OP
Ron Paul is not a Democrat so why the concern with the criticism? livetohike Dec 2011 #1
Probably because on the scale of nuts to fucking nuts sharp_stick Dec 2011 #2
Because, people here promote the clown. n/t FSogol Dec 2011 #3
Exactly. HappyMe Dec 2011 #6
My theory? People around here like populists. So, when a populist FSogol Dec 2011 #8
Oy. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around single issue voters. HappyMe Dec 2011 #12
There was in influx of short-lived posters defending and supporting Ron Paul in the last few days... SidDithers Dec 2011 #4
True, but people have been supporting him here (well, at DU2) for a while. n/t FSogol Dec 2011 #9
He's a lunatic. MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #5
And when the POTUS CALMLY whips out his wintersolstice Dec 2011 #25
Ah, a disgruntled Paul fan. great white snark Dec 2011 #30
He's a different kind of crazy than the Republicrats. That's all. saras Dec 2011 #7
Wish more people my age would realize that. rep the dems Dec 2011 #37
Thanks for your concern SecularMotion Dec 2011 #10
There is a very vocal cult of personality developing around him on the internet cowcommander Dec 2011 #11
Ron Paul is the only semi-credible candidate on the ballot who is ... Laelth Dec 2011 #13
you don't need to be compromised if your principles naturally align with the powers that be... renegade000 Dec 2011 #15
I'm not advocating for the guy. I would never vote for the guy. Laelth Dec 2011 #16
in those two sectors sure... renegade000 Dec 2011 #17
I think I hear you correctly. Laelth Dec 2011 #20
Decriminalization of pot sharp_stick Dec 2011 #18
I forgot to mention the prison industry. You're right about that. Laelth Dec 2011 #19
I think you've made some important observations markpkessinger Dec 2011 #29
I can't claim to understand what's motivating younger voters. Laelth Dec 2011 #31
Spot-on. Just wanted you to know that. n/t Zalatix Dec 2011 #36
He's not really much of a threat to the powers that be LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #26
Well, yes and no. Laelth Dec 2011 #28
Not peel off Democrats... peel off potential Obama voters cthulu2016 Dec 2011 #14
Because some people can't see past his anti-war and anti-drug war rhetoric... MicaelS Dec 2011 #21
It's anti-troll bulwarking. iris27 Dec 2011 #22
Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #23
"Cupcake"? Excuse you? WTF? iris27 Dec 2011 #27
As someone who has been concerned about this issue for 4 years, despite not living in America... LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #24
Singled out? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2011 #32
And just when I was thinking that the inordinate number of postings here these days musette_sf Dec 2011 #33
Isn't is better to have at least one Republican candidate who wants to cut military spending? think Dec 2011 #34
I think they are concerned he pulls liberals mmonk Dec 2011 #35
You're wrong. Iggo Dec 2011 #38

livetohike

(24,259 posts)
1. Ron Paul is not a Democrat so why the concern with the criticism?
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 12:37 PM
Dec 2011

As far as peeling off Democratic votes - I doubt it. He's anti-environmentalism, anti-choice and a pro-business capitalist.

He's receiving the same concern and laughs as the other clowns who are running for the GOP nomination. Well deserved.

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
2. Probably because on the scale of nuts to fucking nuts
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 12:39 PM
Dec 2011

he's a long way to the fucking nuts side of things. He appeals to a simpletons basic instinct much as Any Rand and her idiotic crap did and those simpletons tend to vote when they're told they should.

FSogol

(47,608 posts)
8. My theory? People around here like populists. So, when a populist
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 01:07 PM
Dec 2011

nutter pops up, they are inclined to listen. Also single issue voters (in Paul's case, pot and anti-war) are more likely to excuse bizarre positions if they hear what they want on "their" issue.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
12. Oy. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around single issue voters.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 01:25 PM
Dec 2011

In Paul's case the hideously negative far outweighs the good.

SidDithers

(44,333 posts)
4. There was in influx of short-lived posters defending and supporting Ron Paul in the last few days...
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 12:44 PM
Dec 2011

The posts setting the record straight on how racist, bigoted and crazeee Ron Paul is are the natural response to the bullshit being peddled by the "Malicious Intruders".

Sid

 

wintersolstice

(9 posts)
25. And when the POTUS CALMLY whips out his
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:59 PM
Dec 2011

trusty pen and signs NDAA, it will all be done with complete and sober sanity...

great white snark

(2,646 posts)
30. Ah, a disgruntled Paul fan.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 06:54 PM
Dec 2011

Was wondering who'd be the first to drag President Obama into this Ron Paul thread. Ron Paul is a douche.

rep the dems

(1,689 posts)
37. Wish more people my age would realize that.
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 01:03 AM
Dec 2011

People get so caught up in his stances on drugs and foreign policy (which extends well beyond just not fighting unnecessary wars) that they ignore the much scarier implications of a Ron Paul presidency, as in the parts he could actually get passed with a GOP Congress.

 

cowcommander

(734 posts)
11. There is a very vocal cult of personality developing around him on the internet
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
Dec 2011

His supporters are extremely loyal and fanatical to the point of insanity, it is very hard to ignore them because they're everywhere in every single political forum, not just DU.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
13. Ron Paul is the only semi-credible candidate on the ballot who is ...
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 02:08 PM
Dec 2011

... a serious threat to the status quo, the establishment, and the powers that be.

All the rest are either compromised or purchased outright.

As such, Paul must be destroyed! (or so I theorize)

-Laelth

renegade000

(2,301 posts)
15. you don't need to be compromised if your principles naturally align with the powers that be...
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 02:32 PM
Dec 2011

So he wants to reduce military spending and decriminalize pot, alright, I can buy into that... but after that what?

Oh yeah, all that money we'll be saving on the military is going straight into the pockets of the ultra-wealthy, what with all the regressive economic policies he champions.

Social safety net? Reproductive rights? Consumer protection? Yeah good luck with all that...

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
16. I'm not advocating for the guy. I would never vote for the guy.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 02:51 PM
Dec 2011

I'm merely explaining why I think he's getting so much attention.

His desire to cut the military budget is a serious threat to the MIC. His desire to decriminalize pot is a serious threat to big pharma and the medical industry. He poses a real threat to the establishment in a way that other candidates do not. That is all.

-Laelth

renegade000

(2,301 posts)
17. in those two sectors sure...
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:20 PM
Dec 2011

but in all the rest? not so much, which is why he can get away with it.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
20. I think I hear you correctly.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:30 PM
Dec 2011

If you're saying that most of his policy positions actually strengthen the establishment, I agree. But I am also pointing out that he is the only candidate who's really posing any kind of threat to any sector of the establishment at all--thus his appeal, and thus all the negative attention brought to bear upon his campaign.

-Laelth

sharp_stick

(14,400 posts)
18. Decriminalization of pot
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:22 PM
Dec 2011

would have no effect on big pharma or the medical industry. It would do some real damage to the Prison industry though.

Paul's dream of cutting the military budget is dead on arrival as no Senate or House of Representatives would take up anything even resembling his proposal.

Unless he thinks he can rule by fiat he's hamstrung from the get go.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
19. I forgot to mention the prison industry. You're right about that.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:27 PM
Dec 2011

I didn't say Paul, if elected, would actually be able to do the things he proposes. I just said he's the only well-known candidate that's willing to threaten the establishment in any way.

That gives him some appeal to many people, and it makes him dangerous enough to inspire the establishment to squash him, if necessary. Just trying to explain why he's garnering the attention mentioned by the OP.

-Laelth

markpkessinger

(8,908 posts)
29. I think you've made some important observations
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 06:51 PM
Dec 2011

One thing that concerns me is that, because of his anti-war/legalization of pot/end-the-fed sentiments, there are a lot of younger voters, as well as independents, who are looking at him very seriously. Unfortunately, what many of those younger voters don't seem to grasp is that when it comes to social and economic policy, he's as much of a troglodyte as any other Republican. But Democrats need to take seriously his appeal to such voters, and understand it, whether or not we, as Democrats, think the basis for such attraction is largely groundless, in order to be able to counter it effectively in the (unlikely) event Paul should become the GOP nominee. It's important for us to be able to see Ron Paul through the eyes of the voters to whom he is attractive, particularly those younger voters and independents who are not already a given in the GOP column.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
31. I can't claim to understand what's motivating younger voters.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 10:15 PM
Dec 2011

I do find it interesting, however, that they seem to find something appealing about Paul. Personally, I don't see him as any kind of threat to Obama or to anyone else, for that matter. I have faith that the powers that be will insure he never gets more than a dinner invitation to the White House. That's as close as he'll ever get, I suspect.

I full agree with you, however, that voters respond well to politicians who stand on principle. Perhaps that's a large part of Paul's appeal.

-Laelth

LeftishBrit

(41,451 posts)
26. He's not really much of a threat to the powers that be
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 04:01 PM
Dec 2011

He may speak rudely about them, but he would let them go on being very rich, and pay even less in taxes than they do now.

On the other hand, he'd be a big threat to the poor.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
28. Well, yes and no.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 06:46 PM
Dec 2011

Indeed, Paul is an enabler of the very rich on most issues, and his Presidency would be a disaster for the poor. Let me iterate that I am not advocating for the man and that I would never vote for the man.

That said, I am trying to answer the question posed by the OP. I sense that Paul is getting attention because at least two of his stated positions pose a serious threat to the establishment (the powers that be or whatever you want to call them). His call for reducing the American military is unprecedented in the last 40 years. His call to decriminalize marijuana is also unprecedented for a major political figure in the United States. Both these positions are a threat to serious, entrenched interests here. That, I think, is why he's garnering both support and the negative attention of the establishment. No other serious contender is a threat to the establishment in any way, and I am including Barack Obama in that assessment.

-Laelth

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
14. Not peel off Democrats... peel off potential Obama voters
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 02:18 PM
Dec 2011

A lot of crazy people voted for Obama. A lot of crazy people voted for McCain. Sad truth is that any national candidate needs some of the crazy vote.

Paul has a lot going for him as a protest candidate because a protest candidate only has to be "right" on one issue and Paul has a grab-bag of issues where he stands alone.

He could get votes from stoners and klansmen. In an angry, dispoointed environment that kind of scattershot appeal is potentialy potent.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
21. Because some people can't see past his anti-war and anti-drug war rhetoric...
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:53 PM
Dec 2011
"Paul is a Republican, and he's anti war, and anti-drug war, he's wonderful!!"

Paul is profoundly anti-choice. He thinks private business should be able to discriminate on the basis of race.

The fascination of some people on the Left with Paul reminds me of the same type fascination with Eisenhower, simply because of his anti MIC speech as he left office. Despite the fact he presided over the enormous buildup of the US Nuclear Arsenal, and regularly contemplated Thermonuclear War with the USSR. Eisenhower was no Dove.

"Eisenhower's a Republican, and he's anti war, and anti-MIC, he's wonderful!!"

http://hnn.us/articles/47326.html

Peace activists love to quote Dwight Eisenhower. The iconic Republican war hero who spoke so eloquently about the dangers of war and the need for disarmament makes a terrific poster-boy for peace. The image of Eisenhower as the “man of peace” is so useful that I almost hate to burst the bubble. But if you look at the historical record there is no escaping the other Eisenhower: the Eisenhower who said “he would rather be atomized than communized,” who reminds us how dangerous the cold war era really was and how easily political leaders can mask their intentions with benign images.


Early on, he noted in his diary what he later said in public: nuclear weapons would now be “treated just as another weapon in the arsenal.” “We have got to be in a position to use that weapon,” he insisted to Dulles. That became official policy in NSC 5810/1, which declared the U.S. intention to treat nuclear weapons “as conventional weapons; and to use them whenever required to achieve national objectives.” By early 1957, Eisenhower told the NSC that there could be no conventional battles any more: “The only sensible thing for us to do was to put all our resources into our SAC capability and into hydrogen bombs.” He found it “frustrating not to have plans to use nuclear weapons generally accepted.”

His whole reason for fighting was to prevent the communists from imposing a totalitarian state in America. He had long recognized the irony that nuclear war would lead to the very totalitarianism he abhorred. But he confessed to the Cabinet that he saw no way to avoid it: “He was coming more and more to the conclusion that … we would have to run this country as one big camp—severely regimented.” After reading plans for placing the nation under martial law, giving the president power to “requisition all of the nation’s resources–human and material,” he pronounced them “sound.”

It is hard to give up the “man of peace” that peace activists have come to admire. And perhaps it’s not fair to give him up. After all, we can never know what another person truly believes. But the record of the other Eisenhower is so consistent and so extensive (I’ve offered only a sampling here) that it is hard to ignore. More importantly, it is dangerous to ignore, because the other Eisenhower was the one who made actual policy. It was a policy that put anticommunist ideology above human life, made by a man who would “push [his] whole stack of chips into the pot” and “hit ‘em … with everything in the bucket”; a man who would “shoot your enemy before he shoots you” and “hit the guy fast with all you’ve got”; a man who believed that the U.S. could “pick itself up from the floor” and win the war, even though “everybody is going crazy,” as long as only 25 or 30 American cities got “shellacked” and nobody got too “hysterical.”

iris27

(1,951 posts)
22. It's anti-troll bulwarking.
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:55 PM
Dec 2011

There have been several pro-Paul trolls here over the last few days.

Response to iris27 (Reply #22)

iris27

(1,951 posts)
27. "Cupcake"? Excuse you? WTF?
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 05:50 PM
Dec 2011

And yes, support of Paul, or any other non-Democratic candidate, is against the TOS here. Many posts or few, doesn't matter. Someone with 7000+ posts just got banned last night for advocating that we all vote for the Socialist Party.

LeftishBrit

(41,451 posts)
24. As someone who has been concerned about this issue for 4 years, despite not living in America...
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 03:59 PM
Dec 2011

the reason is indeed that some progressives are tempted to make comimon cause with him because of his anti-war views. This is not new; in fact I think there are fewer supporters of Paul on DU now than a few years ago. But for instance at one point in 2008 there was a DU poll that indicated that over 25% of respondents would be prepared to vote for Ron Paul against Hillary Clinton. The respondents may have been self-selected to some degree but still it's worrying.

And the reason why it worries me, despite the fact that he won't be president and I don't even live in his country, is that good rarely comes of progressives making common cause with right-wingers. Usually, the right ends up dominating the left rather than vice versa (what with Blair-Bush followed by Clegg-Cameron I've seen too much of this among our leaders!) And when the attraction of the right-wingers is largely based on their appeal as 'mavericks' and 'iconoclasts', this can lead to a false, pseudo-populist rising against a corrupt current establishment, only to lead to the rise of a much worse establishment. To some extent, this contributed to the rise of fascism in 1930s Europe. Perhaps this is at the back of my hatred of such as Ron Paul. In some ways, he reminds me of the BNP - except that even the BNP are not quite so right-wing economically as he is.

There are *genuine* populist risings against the corrupt establishment now, i.e. the Occupy movements and similar. We do not need fake populist risings by those who would end up crushing poor people and minorities even more than they are crushed already.

musette_sf

(10,478 posts)
33. And just when I was thinking that the inordinate number of postings here these days
Wed Dec 21, 2011, 11:15 PM
Dec 2011

PROMOTING R Paul almost seems orchestrated to me!

Not to mention the postings on R Paul that are passive-aggressive and seem to be a kind of veiled promotion - "I'd never support him BUT he's 'anti-war', 'anti-prohibition', 'anti-Fed' (etc etc etc) and I don't see Mr Obama being (anti-XYZ, etc etc etc) enough for me" kind of posts.

I mean, you know, since R Paul is a particularly regressive and depraved RepubPaleoLibertarian that should not ever be promoted on DU.

 

think

(11,641 posts)
34. Isn't is better to have at least one Republican candidate who wants to cut military spending?
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 12:40 AM
Dec 2011

Last edited Thu Dec 22, 2011, 12:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Or would America be better off if all the people voting Republican were just exposed to the views of candidates that want us to go to war with Iran and increase military spending?

Ron Paul's main sphere of influence is on those people who will vote Republican not Democrat. If you've watched him in the Republican presidential debates he is civil and does not resort to the heavy trash talking. How quaint it is to see a civilized Republican politician after the last decade of neo con hate propaganda. Sure Ron Paul's a Republican so he's not who you are going to vote for. But if I'm stuck with a room full of Republicans I could only hope I'd be stuck with some as civil as RP.

Just imagine a room full of Michelle Bachmann and Gingrich bots. Oh my! Comments like "Obama is un American!" "Obama holds Kenyan, anti colonial views." These people are blatantly intolerant of Obama and liberal points of view. RP takes his jabs at Obama too but he sticks mostly to issues rather than the shallow hate rhetoric like the rest of the neo con wrecking crew.

I am trying not to hate everyone I disagree with and be more tolerant. American politics has boiled down to incessant name calling and ridiculing of an opponent and that is a sad commentary on the state of our democracy and our ability to interact intelligently as a country.

I am as guilty as anyone for stooping to this level but after spending much time debating Republicans online I have begun to realize that it is better to stick to my issues rather than retaliate as the other side had nothing to respond with but name calling and hate speech. I hate to admit it but I kind of enjoy it watching them melt down as they run out of names to call me while I stick to the facts and ignore their insults.

I understand most people here think RP is nuts and I respect your point of view. I understand Ron Paul does NOT reflect Democratic values on many or most issues and that he has a very idealistic view on the world that people consider crazy. Yet RP is promoting many issues that are important to liberals and I like seeing Republicans exposed to and embracing these ideals!

As for myself I chose to agree with RP on issues that make sense and focus on our common interests rather than the issues on which we disagree. I don't foresee Ron Paul winning the Republican nomination but one never knows. If by some crazy chance he does win I'm sure it will make it easier for Obama to move further to the left on military spending which would be very encouraging in my eyes. I understand why Obama is a centrist but he knows which way the wind blows. So if the most improbable of events does occur and RP would get nominated Obama knows how to shift his position and remain consistent with his issues and values.

On social issues Obama would mop up on RP as he has nothing to offer there so I don't see RP as a threat to an Obama presidency. I'm not looking forward to a Newt challenge to Obama because of the effect on public discourse or a Mit challenge to Obama as I think he is far more dangerous to his presidency than RP ever could be.

Call me an optimist but I like to find things I can like in all people if possible. It's easy to make enemies and vilify our opposition but this does nothing to help America move forward.

Next time you meet a Ron Paul fan try not to them treat like a clueless imbecile because he or she likes some of RPs views. Try to treat them like they may be a future Democrat that's just not seeing ALL the issues. You never know...

Here's to a better 2012 for ALL people.

Happy holidays too!

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
35. I think they are concerned he pulls liberals
Thu Dec 22, 2011, 12:42 AM
Dec 2011

and thus want to squash it like using a baseball bat to kill a fly.

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