More evidence Ukrainian AA shot down Malaysian airliner.

[another_liberal]

It has now come to light that Ukrainian forces in the area had a high-tech "Buk-M1" anti-aircraft missile battery operational and with its radar switched on at the time of the Malaysian airliner shoot down. This information, coupled with the fact that separatist fighters don't even have such weapons (capable of hitting a plane at high altitude) seems to make it pretty clear who actually attacked the plane:

Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed

On Thursday, when a Malaysian Airlines plane was apparently shot down over Ukraine, a Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational in the region, the Russian Defense Ministry said, contradicting Kiev’s statements. The battery was deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner, the ministry said in a statement. It said radiation from the battery’s radar was detected by the Russian military.

“The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk],” the ministry said in a statement.

The ministry said the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery deployed in the region, which was at a firing distance from the plane’s flight path.

Earlier Kiev said it could not have fired a missile at the passing civilian plane because it had no Buk missile launchers deployed in the region. At the same time the Ukrainians said the militias had no Buk systems in their hands, according to a statement from the country’s Prosecutor General.

(snip)

Read more at: http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/

[FrodosPet]

1. So how did the Rebels shoot down the AN-26 that also crashed near Torez yesterday?

Where is THAT wreckage?

--------------------------------------------

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164

DONETSK, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Militiamen of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) brought down a military transport Antonov-26 (An-26) plane of the Ukrainian Air Force on the outskirts of the town of Torez, eyewitnesses said.

A missile hit the An-26, it fell on the ground and caught blaze, they said.
On July 14, militiamen of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic downed another An-26 of the Ukrainian Air Force.

--------------------------------------------

In case their server gets amnesia:

[another_liberal]

12. One assumes it was not flying at 33,000 feet when attacked.

Does that seem reasonable to you?

[FrodosPet]

19. Not a bit reasonable

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741291

Duma speaker blames Ukraine for allowing civil airliner to use airspace over war-torn area

Russia July 18, 13:02 UTC+4

MOSCOW, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia’s State Duma, lower house, Speaker Sergei Naryshkin has blamed Ukraine for allowing Malaysia Airlines’ Boeing 777 civil aircraft to use airspace over the war-torn eastern area.

“We’re shocked by the fact that the Ukrainian aviation authorities allowed the civil airliner to use airspace over the territory where the Ukrainian army uses armoured vehicles, heavy artillery, warplanes and launch rocket systems against their citizens,” Naryshkin said on Friday.

~ snip ~

----------------------------------

I am sure you have a different read on it, but it sounds like they are not blaming the Ukraine government for shooting it down - but for allowing it into dangerous airspace.

[reorg]

88. No, it wasn't

Since thread participants have already cited the "Sun", of all tabloids, as a source, I think it's only fair to use the Daily Mail in this instance:

Published: 14:27 GMT, 14 July 2014 | Updated: 18:30 GMT, 14 July 2014

A Ukrainian military transport plane which was shot down along the country's eastern border was likely to have been hit by a rocket fired from neighbouring Russia, Ukraine's defence minister has claimed.

Rebels in conflict-wracked eastern Ukraine immediately claimed responsibility for downing the Antonov-26 which authorities say may have been carrying up to 20 people.

But Ukrainian defence minister Valeriy Heletey said the plane was flying at an altitude of 21,300 feet, which is too high to be reached with separatists' weapons.

The shooting followed a Moscow threat to use 'surgical retaliatory strikes', according to respected newspaper Kommersant.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2691617/Russian-state-TV-sparks-outrage-claiming-Ukraine-army-CRUCIFIED-three-year-old-boy-Kremlin-threatens-military-strikes-neighbour.html#ixzz37pW1OZvp

[FrodosPet]

2. So who is ITAR-TASS anyhow?

Must be one of those Murdoch corpro-fascist websites, right? Or maybe an Alex Jones production from his War against Info?

-----------------------------------

http://en.itar-tass.com/today

ITAR-TASS TODAY

In existence since 1904, the ITAR-TASS News Agency is one of the world's largest international information agencies. The successor to the Soviet TASS news agency, it was re-named in 1992, when Russia proclaimed its sovereignty following the collapse of the USSR. It has retained its status of being the state central information agency.

[another_liberal]

9. Thank you for that . . .

Just because a source doesn't agree with the Western media's spin machine does not automatically make it a Breitbart-type hack operation.

[FrodosPet]

14. So if ITAR-TASS is correct,

Then the rebels shot down a plane with a missile today.

So did the rebels shoot down an An-26, a Boeing 777, or is the Russian State News Agency incorrect and the rebels did not shoot down anything?

[another_liberal]

17. If I understand the situation correctly . . .

The separatist freedom fighters do have anti-aircraft weapons systems, but none that (like Ukraine's Buk-M1) could reach to very high altitudes. Even a shoulder-launched AA missile can take out a plane flying at normal combat altitudes.

[FrodosPet]

25. They have been raiding and capturing Ukraine weapons

Supposedly, the rebels were BRAGGING about capturing a Buk AA system.

And WHY would they post and then quickly remove this message:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fvk.com%2Fwall-57424472_7256

Translation:

17.07.2014 17:50 (MSK) Message from the militia. "In the area Torrez just downed plane An-26, lying somewhere in the mine" Progress ". Warned same - not to fly in "our sky." And here is the video the confirmation of the next "ptichkopada." Birdie fell for waste heap, the residential sector is not caught. Peaceful people do not suffer. And also have information about the second downed aircraft, like the Su. "

[another_liberal]

27. We have hard evidence the Ukrainian forces had the capability to do this attack . . .

All you can say about the separatists' capabilities is that "maybe" they might have seized and held onto such a weapon, and "maybe" it was in working order when they needed it to work. Not to mention they "maybe" had the technical expertise to successfully use such a weapon to hit a high-flying, high speed target, and etc.

BTW: What kind of a source are you quoting there? Do you have any certainty of authenticity at all in that regard?

[maddezmom]

29. We?

Your slip is showing?

[another_liberal]

51. You and I . . .

The World community, you know, everybody?

[maddezmom]

52. Nice try.

[another_liberal]

57. Meaning what?

Please explain?

[maddezmom]

59. You are smart enough to figure it out yourself.

[FrodosPet]

40. And some emerging evidence the rebels could as well

And bragged about it!





Silliness break: Anagram for ITAR-TASS = It Rat Ass

[Duckhunter935]

49. the rebels do not have an air force

why would Ukraine even need a BUK to fight them?

[another_liberal]

54. Better ask the Ukrainians . . .

Because they have deployed them near to the fighting front.

[Duckhunter935]

55. do you have a link?

[another_liberal]

58. Did you neglect to read my OP?

(sigh)

[Duckhunter935]

62. Ukraine says army has not used anti-aircraft missiles in east

(Reuters) - Ukraine's army has not deployed missiles during fighting with pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine and the Malaysian airliner that was brought down there was out of range of the systems it uses, Ukrainian officials said on Friday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/ukraine-crisis-missiles-idUSL6N0PT33A20140718

[Agschmid]

69. Hey nice link.

[maddezmom]

56. Link?

[another_liberal]

60. You also neglected to read my OP . . .

Or so it seems.

[maddezmom]

61. I find it to be a highly dubious source

Do you have another?

[Agschmid]

71. I read it,

It's read like propaganda, which is what I've come to expect form RT.

[Boom Sound 416]

84. Why would you believe anything RSTV says/reports?

[FrodosPet]

89. Personally, I don't believe them any more than I do Faux News

The truth is in what they lie about, and how they lie about it.

[malaise]

42. +1,000

This is a disaster regardless of which side killed these innocent people. That said the Western media has not been carrying the assault on Eastern Ukraine by the Western backed RW government.

I don't know who has what resources but I know the Western back government has been suffering serious losses recently including military aircraft flying at significantly lower levels.

All Civilian aircraft should have been warned to stay away. I hope we find out the truth about this one because we've still not been told the truth about Ft370.

[jakeXT]

41. They quoted Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema that the rebels don't have their Buk

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said. “These weapons were not seized,” he added.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741271

[FreakinDJ]

3. Doesn't Pass the smell test

Those systems are Automated. Once you take it over you simply switch off the IFF and shoot down any plane you want

[another_liberal]

8. Were you there?

Your information seems to imply rather intimate knowledge regarding the actual incident?

[FreakinDJ]

138. A personal relationship with SAM systems

For some years

[jakeXT]

16. Even transponder amnesia like on MH 370 would help/nt

[maddezmom]

4. More bullshit from your favorite source

Don't you get tired of posting it?

[another_liberal]

6. I'm quite well rested at present . . .

Thank you for asking.

[MattSh]

34. What sources would you suggest?

[maddezmom]

35. There are plenty others on DU right now

Just take a gander.

[MattSh]

85. Yes, I do know that...

But what I'm questioning is the push to read only sources that hew to the establishment line. Because that's exactly what the push to demean Russian news sources is. It means "don't question authority." USA authorities, that is.

In my first trip to Kiev 10 years ago, I met a woman who said to me "at least in the USSR, with one source of news, a good number of people understood they were being lied to. People in the west believe that if 95% of the sources say the same thing, then the 95% group must be correct. Therefore, they think they are not being lied to". To paraphrase a bit.

This idea that a Russian source must be wrong when they don't agree with the 95% of American sources is guaranteed to leave one ill-informed and ignorant. I for one choose not to go that route. But YMMV...

[maddezmom]

7. Are you talking to yourself now?

[another_liberal]

10. Thanks . . .

You notice everything.

[boston bean]

11. This article you post is unadulterated bullshit.

[another_liberal]

13. Why would you claim that?

Especially so early on such a lovely Summer morning?

[boston bean]

15. Because it is. Even though it is a lovely Summer morning.

Bullshit is bullshit even on a nice day.

[another_liberal]

20. Only your opinion . . .

And you offer nothing but foul language to support it.

[boston bean]

21. ok, it's malarkey. Does that help?

[hobbit709]

23. Naw. It's still taurine metabolic byproducts.

[Agschmid]

72. I see what you did there...

[Adsos Letter]

130. LOL!

Ah, Red Bull...

Well played, hobbit709, well played.

[SidDithers]

18. ...according to RT...

at least RT is no longer claiming that Ukraine was aiming for Putin's plane.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025252653

Sid

[another_liberal]

22. They never did "Claim" any such thing . . .

Some people seem to have a problem telling the difference between a source just reporting on a story and a source that's claiming to have the only true story. Know what I mean, Sid?

[Duckhunter935]

30. yes they just pushed that story

more crap from that source. I work in ADA and most of that does not even stand up to scrutiny. Do you know what IFF is? Do you know what direction of flight and heading are? If RT gave that credibility, they are idiots.

[maddezmom]

31. You were pushing this yourself yesterday

[MohRokTah]

64. WOW!`They most certainly did claim it and you fell for the lie. eom

[Roy Serohz]

24. TASS has been a very reliable news source over the decades

By ESTHER B. FEIN, Special to The New York Times
Published: October 11, 1989

It is not a joke, nor a hoax, nor a sign of mental instability, nor an attempt to drum up local tourism by drawing the curious, the Soviet press agency Tass insisted today in discussions of what it called an extraterrestrial visit to southern Russia.

Residents of the city of Voronezh insisted today that lanky, three-eyed extraterrestrial creatures had indeed landed in a local park and gone for a stroll and that a seemingly fantastic report about the event carried Monday by the official press agency Tass was absolutely true.

''It was not an optical illusion,'' said Lieut. Sergei A. Matveyev of the Voronezh district police station, who said in a telephone interview that he saw the landing of the U.F.O. on Sept. 27.

Lieutenant Matveyev confessed that he had not actually seen the aliens, but said he saw the spaceship and ''it was certainly a body flying in the sky,'' moving noiselessly at a very high speed and very low altitude. 'Anything Is Possible'

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/11/world/ufo-landing-is-fact-not-fantasy-the-russians-insist.html

[another_liberal]

28. Yep, and no American military personnel have ever reported having seen UFO's . . .

Right?

[Roy Serohz]

48. Changing the subject, are we?

Has CNN ever reported three-eyed aliens walking the streets of Denver as fact?

ITAR-TASS and Russia Today are the equivalent of WorldNetDaily and FOX.

[Duckhunter935]

26. more bulllshit

these terrorists actually boasted about capturing a BUK two weeks ago. I suspect Russia sent a few over along with the tanks and APC's. They have claimed to have shot down at least two aircraft way above what a MANPADS can do. There are videos of a BUK driving in east Ukraine by itself with no government forces present.

They fucked up and you know it and you keep pushing this bullshit. nearly 300 were murdered by these thugs and I am just getting a little sick of you supporting these murders and Putin who is supplying them with heavy arms so they can keep fighting.

[another_liberal]

32. Do you have a link to that initial report?

Yes, someone did "fuck-up" but your claim for who it actually was his not very convincing at all.

[maddezmom]

33. How many times are you going to ask for a link and then ignore it?

Really seems like you are just trolling on your own threads, IMO.

[another_liberal]

36. The source I've seen links to is of highly dubious authenticity, to say the least.

If that nonsense is all you've got, don't even bother me with it.

[Duckhunter935]

38. you mean like your RT links

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

oh, man... thanks for the laugh this morning. i fucking LOVE IT when someone posting links from RT complains about someone else's source ESPECIALLY when the word 'dubious' is thrown out there!!!

sP

[IronGate]

76. You have the nerve to label those links as highly dubuous,

and yet, your linking and quoting RT?

[Duckhunter935]

39. are you going to ignore this video evidence

do you think it calls for more investigation?

[another_liberal]

50. Don't misunderstand me . . .

I think everything about this incident needs thorough investigation, including that video.

The people who shot down that airliner, whether they knew it was an airliner or not, committed a horrible crime. They need to found and punished for that act, whomever they are.

[Duckhunter935]

53. I think you are now pulling back, funny

for almost two days you have been pushing the Putin line and the angels on the rebel side could not have done it. It had to only be Ukraine. When called on the bullshit you have been posting you try and walk that back. No, the Rebels shot the plane down and Putin is trying to clean up that big fuck up and you have been pushing that narrative.

[IronGate]

77. Walking it back now? nt.

[Codeine]

92. Heehee!! The backtracking doth begin! nt

[Duckhunter935]

37. Hours before the crash, Russia closed four airways near the Ukrainian border

The Malaysian plane was flying on an active route used by commercial airlines every day. Hours before the crash, Russia closed four airways near the Ukrainian border, including one that was a continuation of Flight 17’s route.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=2#aviation

[another_liberal]

43. Ukraine had also announced it was closing that part of their airspace . . .

They did so before the airliner was shot down, warning that only their own aircraft would be allowed to fly there.

It was a huge mistake on the part of Malaysian Airlines to not realize they needed to reroute their planes.

[maddezmom]

44. Link?

[Duckhunter935]

47. he will not supply it but demands it of others

[Duckhunter935]

46. below 32000 feet is my understanding by Eurocontrol

the aircraft was above that

[MohRokTah]

63. Why do you keep posting outright lies from Putin?

You really need to stop this. You are making a fool out of yourself.

[SidDithers]

66. That ship sailed a long time ago...nt

Sid

[MohRokTah]

67. Especially since it is now confirmed that the Separatists fired the missile.

Breaking now on CNN.

[LisaL]

79. Confirmed? By whom?

[MohRokTah]

80. US Intelligence triangulated the trajectory.

It came from the separatists.

Of course, Math has a well known anti-Russian bias.

[Octafish]

103. Just like the New York Times did the other war.

Except it didn't.

[PeaceNikki]

65. rt again, huh? gosh, what did Infowars say about this?

[JustAnotherGen]

68. This survived a jury - the op that is

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service


On Fri Jul 18, 2014, 07:46 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

More evidence Ukrainian AA shot down Malaysian airliner.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025255736

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a dubious source. Posting repeated links from it to push an agenda is over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jul 18, 2014, 08:33 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: AFAIK, it isn't against DU rules to post dumb stuff from unreliable sources. It makes the agenda more obvious.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Over the top of what?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: RT may not be a 100% reliable source, but neither is any MSM in the United States. Personally, I like hearing what RT has to say, and I see no violation of community standards here.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Leave it and ask the hosts to lock it. Alerter can ask this without using the jury
system to try and get the poster to have hides. If that is what you want, I will
not cooperate with this approach. Ask Skinner if RT is to be banned as a source,
that may have support as it is not a reliable one but since it is not an official
rule, I will not participate toward a hide.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: We need to see for ourselves what the Russian propaganda machine is pushing to their citizens and the world. Let it stay. I'm not certain that from an Admin/Site TOS issue - we are not allowed to post from the Russia Times.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Let the pro-Russian trolls post their propaganda. DU members are intelligent enough to tell the difference between BS and reliable media reports.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is a dubious source, but debate it in the thread, not here in the jury pulpit.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[another_liberal]

70. Censorship isn't quite so popular this morning? Good!

Thank you for posting this, JustAnotherGen.

[Agschmid]

73. Yes not popular, too bad your source loves it...

Also notice all the jurors even though they voted to "leave" saw right through this propaganda story.

I guess this is now your quintuple down?

[JustAnotherGen]

74. I'm juror #5

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: We need to see for ourselves what the Russian propaganda machine is pushing to their citizens and the world.


It's propaganda in my book - But I think it's a good question for Ask The Admin. Are we going to allow it here when many of us see it for what it is?

They are no better than the US. Seriously - Russia that is. They do things that they tell their people ONLY the US does. But that's not true.

They were fully capable of having a hand in this.

[Cha]

75. thanks Gen.. Juror #6 has a handle on the situation.. too bad some can't figure it out.

Juror #6.. Explanation: Let the pro-Russian trolls post their propaganda. DU members are intelligent enough to tell the difference between BS and reliable media reports

[sufrommich]

78. Give it up.You're just embarrassing now.nt

[ReverendDeuce]

81. Is this DU or Infowars? Alex Jones, is that you? n/t

n/t

[MineralMan]

82. RT is not an unbiased new source.

It is an arm of the Russian government. Anything they write that has to do with the situation in the Ukraine should not be taken as fact without confirmation from unbiased sources.

This is not evidence. It is propaganda at this point. Please don't post propaganda stories on DU. Thanks.

[MattSh]

86. An unbiases source?

Any suggestions? Thanks!

[MineralMan]

96. Not RT, when it comes to Ukraine.

Not any news source attached to any government involved with Ukraine. Take your pick, aside from Fox News, which is not an unbiased source about anything.

[MattSh]

117. Not any news source attached to any government involved with Ukraine?

So... You're also suggesting not to read any news source related to any government involved with Ukraine. Which also includes the US government, which is deeply involved.

Then what about US non-governmental sources that parrot everything the US government has to say? Up to and including the NY Times. If they show absolutely no independence from the official US Government talking points, then they should also be considered suspect. And that's a lot more than just Fox News.

[MineralMan]

118. Frankly, I do not rely on any single source of news.

Never have.

[Bluenorthwest]

83. I long for the simpler days when the Putin fans were merely defending inhuman bigotry toward

minority groups and typing 'the West' all the time.

[snooper2]

87. you really crack me up, so what is it about mother Rus-Si-A you love so much?

You want to go back to the old days where you get to stand in line for a half loaf of bread and chat with your neighbors?

[stevenleser]

90. You know that Ukraine isn't engaging in ANY antiaircraft activities, right? Simple reason...

... the eastern Ukrainian rebels have no planes.

The moment you stop and think about what you are asserting here, you will realize it is ridiculous.

[reorg]

97. Yeah, let's just forget the constant complaints about "Russian" air attacks

by Ukrainian ministers and spokespersons.

So, why would the Ukraine engage or prepare to engage in ANY anti-aircraft activities at the Russian border, huh?

[stevenleser]

98. So, you think the Ukranians would even paint a Russian plane with fire control radar?

You haven't thought this through, have you?

[reorg]

99. I submit to your special military expertise on that

but to deny that the Ukrainians would engage in ANY anti-aircraft activities such as launching ground-to-air missile systems at the Russian border does sound a little silly, given the constant propaganda barrage against Russia's alleged "provocations".

Ukraine conflict: Russia accused of shooting down jet

[stevenleser]

100. It's not silly. Whose planes are they going to shoot down, Russia's?

Russia is hoping for exactly such a provocation to invade the entire rest of Ukraine. Not only that, Russian military aircraft are designed with electronic countermeasures to give them a good chance against both US and Russian made SAM systems. It would be a futile gesture that would likely result in the Ukrainians losing their country.

Even painting an aircraft with fire control radar is universally considered a hostile act. Ukraine has no chance against the Russian military and that was obvious when they let the Russians simply take Crimea without firing a shot. They don't want to give the Russian's any excuse to take more of their country.

[reorg]

102. Sure. When they prepare to take over Donetsk they're not going to defend themselves

against possible air attacks by Russia, which they claim already happened.

They'll just wait for the first incident that may prompt NATO or the US to help them do it.

[stevenleser]

106. That's right, they're not. Because they know it would cost them their country.

Let me tell you how this plays out under your scenario.

1. Russia sends attack helicopters or fighter jets to attack Ukrainian forces just over the border to help the separatists.

2. Ukraine shoots down one of them.

3. Russia invades the entirety of Ukraine, sends in special unit to move plane debris inside Russian border. Putin then claims Ukraine fired at Russian planes inside Russia which is an act of war and this justified invasion. Or, he simply said the planes were not acting in a way that was hostile towards Ukraine and were shot down and that justifies invasion.

[reorg]

115. I didn't know you were one of those conspiracy theorists

I suggest to take this to "Creative Speculation", thanks.

[stevenleser]

116. Conspiracy theorist? Russia already took a part of their country. Where have YOU been?

And one of the heads of RT recently tweeted out "RIP Ukraine."

You might want to try actually reading the news.

[reorg]

123. Sorry, I don't follow the "tweets" of RT heads

and comparing the Krim situation with taking over the entire Ukraine seems a bit over the top, don't you think?

Gotta go now, later.

[stevenleser]

133. That you don't follow news stories is something I am more than willing to accept. nt

[William769]

91. More evidence of how many fucking idiots there are.

Talk about coming out of the wood work.

[The Magistrate]

93. Even Were One to Take This As True, Sir

It would amount to nothing more than establishing the weapon the secessionists used was commandeered from a Ukrainian base, rather than directly supplied from Russia. That last is a point Russia would be at pains to try and establish at this point.

[brooklynite]

95. MH17 Coverage From Russia Today Forces Correspondent Sara Firth To Quit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014849625

No fair jumping to conclusions.....

[MohRokTah]

101. I'm frickin' AMAZED!

Amazed you haven't deleted this pile of shit yet.

[HERVEPA]

104. Reliable news from a Russian news agency

Yeh. Right

[Octafish]

105. Really. They don't even employ Judy Miller.

Or the other Aspen lovers like Roger Ailes.

[maddezmom]

107. What is your point? Do you agree with the "evidence" offered in the article?

[Octafish]

110. My point is that attacking the poster for mentioning RT is bullshit.

RT, for all its faults, is just a news source. The New York Times, and Fox News and the rest of Corporate McPravda, have helped lie America into war with Iraq twice and a whole lot of other places lots of times.

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident.

The Newspaper of War

by Howard Friel
Published on Tuesday, May 13, 2014 by Common Dreams

Many years ago, Ho Chi Minh’s North Vietnam, Communist China, and Soviet Russia were saying one thing about what had happened in the Gulf of Tonkin in early August 1964, while President Johnson and top administration officials were all saying the exact opposite. How should the Times have responded to that situation, assuming a commitment to an independent press and an informed citizenry?

Ten years earlier, in July 1954, the governments of Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and China all signed the Final Declaration of the Geneva Accord on Vietnam, which formally concluded France’s U.S.-supported colonial war in Vietnam. The United States refused to sign, and thereafter proceeded to undermine the most important stipulation of the accord – that elections to unify the northern and southern zones of Vietnam take place in 1956. By what journalistic criteria should the New York Times have covered this refusal by the Eisenhower administration to sign and comply with the Geneva Accord on Vietnam, which opened the door to the twenty-year American military campaign in Vietnam?

When Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, and Rice claimed in 2001-2003 that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction, including an active nuclear weapons program, and when Saddam Hussein denied those claims, what journalistic standard did the Times apply in its response to those conflicting claims?

Journalism schools should teach a course focused on questions like these, given that over the past sixty years the Times and every other mainstream news organization has repeatedly flunked such tests, in each instance aiding the government’s efforts in its illegal interventions and wars.

CONTINUED...

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/05/13-0

This is the "paper of record" that gave us Judith Miller and aluminum tubes, while failing to mention word that George W Bush's illegal domestic spying operation until after Selection 2004. I also want to emphasize this paper has done all it can to keep up the fiction that Lee Harvey Oswald alone shot President John F. Kennedy, who had ordered withdrawal of the U.S. from Vietnam. In addition, this is an important read for those interested in seeing how Corporate McPravda exclusively serves the warmongers and not the People, as intended by the nation's Founders in the First Amendment to the Constitution. So, that's my point.

[maddezmom]

112. The member uses it and believes it. Just like those who pushed Judith Miller.

[Octafish]

127. In the USA, the press helped Nixon and Reagan (with Bush Sr) get away with treason.

Which, as a citizen of the USA, bothers me.

Robert Parry explains:

Rethinking Watergate/Iran-Contra

EXCERPT...

Burying the History

Lawrence Barcella, who served as Task Force chief counsel, later told me that so much incriminating evidence arrived late that he asked Task Force chairman, Rep. Lee Hamilton, a centrist Democrat from Indiana, to extend the inquiry for three months but that Hamilton said no. (Hamilton told me that he had no recollection of Barcella’s request.)

Instead of giving a careful review to the new evidence, the House Task Force ignored, disparaged or buried it. I later unearthed some of the evidence in unpublished Task Force files. However, in the meantime, Official Washington dismissed the “October Surprise” and other Iran-Contra-connected scandals, like Contra drug trafficking, as conspiracy theories. [For the latest information on the October Surprise case, see Robert Parry’s America’s Stolen Narrative.]

As with Watergate and Nixon, Official Washington has refused to rethink its conclusions absolving President Ronald Reagan and his successor President George H.W. Bush of guilt in a range of crimes collected under the large umbrella of Iran-Contra.

When journalist Gary Webb revived the Contra-Cocaine scandal in the mid-to-late 1990s, he faced unrelenting hostility from Establishment reporters at the New York Times, Washington Post and Los Angeles Times. The attacks were so ugly that Webb’s editors at the San Jose Mercury News forced him out, setting in motion his professional destruction.

It didn’t even matter when an internal investigation by the CIA’s inspector general in 1998 confirmed that the Reagan and Bush-41 administrations had tolerated and protected drug trafficking by the Contras. The major newspapers largely ignored the findings and did nothing to help rehabilitate Webb’s career, eventually contributing to his suicide in 2004. [For details on the CIA report, see Robert Parry's Lost History.]

The major newspapers have been equally unwilling to rethink the origins – and the significance – of the October Surprise/Iran-Contra scandal. It doesn’t matter how much new evidence accumulates. It remains much easier to continue the politically safe deification of “Gipper” Reagan and the fond remembrances of “Poppy” Bush.

CONTINUED...

[maddezmom]

128. And?

Again, you didn't answer my question? Do you buy the shit RT is selling?

[Octafish]

134. Why do you keep insisting I answer how you want? I would think my answer was obvious.

Perhaps a quote will help you:



So, it seems "Yes" and "No."
Yes, because that is what RT said. No, because mass media lie.
The reality is what I answered: I await the truth before venturing a guess.

[stevenleser]

109. Well, RT is part of the Russian government which now has a war criminal at the helm.

So, RT, VoR, and TASS and the rest are all discredited now according to your own criteria.

[MattSh]

113. Convicted of what?

Inquiring minds want to know...

And I thought you were better than this, stevenleser...

[stevenleser]

114. Ah, so Bush and Cheney are not war criminals because they haven't been convicted?

Is that now the swill you are trying to sell in your efforts to spin this away from Russia and the rebels?

[MattSh]

120. Still, convicted of what? Directly or indirectly...

Are you suggesting either Russia or the rebels shot down the plane? Then what proof do you have? Come on, lay it out...

[The Magistrate]

121. Cold But Fair, Sir

[Octafish]

124. Exactly. Which is why you pushing the idea that CIA doesn't interfere with US press is so puzzling.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2542951

[stevenleser]

132. That comment doesnt say what you seem to be asserting it does. nt

[Octafish]

135. No, but the thread does. You insisted CIA kept out of US news.

There are other examples on this thread, too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023061206#post58

[maddezmom]

136. So you bought into the CIA killed Hastings. Not surprised.

[Octafish]

137. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

I am surprised.

[KamaAina]

108. I'm beginning to think that RT should be classified along with Alex Jones, etc.

as an unacceptable source for DU.

[MineralMan]

111. I've classified it as such for a long time.

But DU's not my website.

When RT reports anything that involves Russia, it should be completely disregarded and treated as propaganda. That's a given. It's odd that people disagree with that, I think. Odd and disturbing.

[sufrommich]

119. Ironically,Alex Jones uses RT nonsense as

"proof" for his paranoid ramblings regularly.RT loves them some Alex Jones too,along with other right wing American hate groups :

Conspiracy-minded radio host Alex Jones makes frequent appearances. In a softball interview last year, Jones rehashed a signature Patriot conspiracy theory when he described the United States as a tool of the "New World Order" and asserted that the world is "controlled by the Bilderberg Group." (The Bilderberg Group is an international, invitation-only group of influential business and government figures that meets privately every year. Many on the American radical right, including a number of anti-Semites, have long seen the Bilderberg group as being behind all kinds of nefarious plots.) "The New World Order," Jones said in his April 7, 2009, show, "is just a super-rich international mafia of oligarchs that are playing God, who want to abolish and bankrupt nation states so they can set up an international order, where the planet is owned by a private bank." The host, Anastasia Churkina, did not challenge any of Jones' claims. In fact, Russia Today has sought Jones' opinion on topics ranging from Internet security to a Philadelphia school district's webcam spying scandal to the BP oil spill response. (He sees a federal conspiracy in all these cases.) An April 16 story headlined "Alex Jones reacts to news of potential oil shortages" gives odd weight to the opinion of the self-described truth teller. Consider the story's opening paragraph: "In a new report, U.S. military officials are warning of a drop in oil production as early as 2012, but Alex Jones says that this may be true, and if so, it is the result of a conspiracy."

Longtime militia organizer Jim Stachowiak — a controversial figure even in Patriot circles — also is a regular guest on Russia Today. Earlier this year, the Georgia-based radio host appeared on the network to defend Charles Dyer, a prominent associate of the Patriot group Oath Keepers until Dyer was charged with child sex abuse in January. "We're standing by Dyer," said Stachowiak, who wore a "Don't Tread on Me" hat and referred to the ATF (the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) as the "American Terrorism Force."

Even white nationalist Jared Taylor has found a platform on Russia Today. On Feb. 8 of this year, when Taylor participated in a "CrossTalk" discussion of whether Obama is a post-racial president, host Lavelle introduced him as an author and editor of American Renaissance journal but made no mention of his blatantly racist views. (In 2005, for instance, Taylor wrote in his journal: "Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears.&quot Russia Today was also the only major media outlet to interview Taylor after multiple hotels cancelled his magazine's biannual conference in February. It did not seek comment from the activists behind the campaign to shut down the conference, which brings together prominent white supremacists and academic racists from the United States and abroad.


http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/fall/from-russia-with-love

[Agschmid]

122. Thanks.

[William769]

125. For your viewing pleasure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025256753

[hrmjustin]

126. RT? weren't they the ones that said the rebels didn't have the ability to do this?

[William769]

129. RT are the one's that went down the rabbit hole with Alice.

[hrmjustin]

131. lol