The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was the fraud that started the Viet Nam War

[betterdemsonly]

Good documentary about Daniel Ellsberg and the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.

http://www.pbs.org/pov/mostdangerousman/additional_video1.php#.U8l-nEBZqSp

People who fear the downing of this plane will be twisted to start a new war are not paranoid. They are most probably old enough to remember Tonkin, WMD in Iraq, or any number of other frauds that lead us into disaster.

But you can never interrupt a neocon in war freakout. Yes we do have neocon dems.

[geek tragedy]

1. Gulf of Tonkin was a lie. There's really no disputing that the rebels did shoot down

the plane at this point. A few feign "uncertainty" but it's painfully obvious at this point whodunit.

Also, no one's advocating we go to war with Russia. Just cripple their economy with sanctions.

[betterdemsonly]

3. There is no disputing it was shot down

Who did it, and whether it was on purpose or not is very much in dispute. America has shot down Airliners as well. Remember the Iranian Airliner we shot down during the Iraq mess?

[geek tragedy]

5. It is not "very much in dispute." ALL, and I mean ALL, the evidence

points towards the separatists.

There is ZERO evidence that it was anyone but Team Russia.

No evidence it was the Ukrainians.

No evidence it was Mossad, or the Freemasons, or the CIA, or Obama's Birth Certificate.

ALL the evidence points towards the scumbag terrorists, who are STILL threatening to shoot investigators who go near the wreckage.

[betterdemsonly]

7. What evidence?

Somebody on twitter who says they did it and they are resistance? You have to be naive to not know what a sock puppet is.

[geek tragedy]

12. Not my fault you have kept yourself unaware of the facts.

Besides the social media bragging (not twitter, but the official site of the lead terrorist Strelkov), there is the fact that the only people who have shot at planes in that area are the terrorists, and that they had shot down three Ukrainian planes in the previous week. And the pictures of them driving high altitude anti-aircraft missiles around right where the plane went down. And the fact that they are not letting investigators near the plane. And the fact that one of the terrorists' prime leaders suddenly 'resigned' as prime minister of the terrorists' 'republics' and is now in Moscow.

No intelligent, sane person thinks anyone but Team Russia did this.

[betterdemsonly]

17. Nobody ever hoaxed a website!

Nobody every faked photographs. Yeah right.

[geek tragedy]

19. you are desperately clutching at straws in order to deflect blame

from the side who enjoys your sympathies.

In this very thread you have said both that:

There is no disputing it was shot down

and that

I don't know that it was shot down at all

Which means you have either admitted you know nothing, or that you know very little.

Alex Jones listener?

There isn't a single fact pointing towards anyone but Team Russia. Spin as you like, you are left with that state of affairs.

[betterdemsonly]

21. You're projecting

you left out the words "on purpose!"

It is really funny.

[geek tragedy]

25. This isn't like someone dropping a gun and shooting themselves.

Your problem is that you are suggesting this was a conspiracy to frame Team Russia, but you don't know of a single fact to support that batshit crazy argument.

[betterdemsonly]

27. That would be a strawman n/t

[geek tragedy]

29. still waiting for you to provide one single fact that calls into

question the consensus that the rebels shot this plane down.

If you don't have a single fact to boost your silly little conspiracy theory, then you have no arugment to make.

[betterdemsonly]

32. Innocent until proven guilty.

Who's consensus, you and your anonymous buddies? Who the heck are you anyway? I haven't presented a conspiracy theory. You are just making shit up.

[geek tragedy]

33. Here is a fact:

The rebels shot down at least three Ukrainian aircraft in this area in the week before the plane was shot down.

Here is another fact:

The Ukrainian military does not shoot at planes in this area, because it owns all of the military aircraft in this area.

There, I have proven more evidence that points in the direction of the scumbag fascist rebels than you have provided.

You are playing the game of trying to dismiss each piece of evidence weighing in against your side. But you are not providing any evidence of your own.

You have no argument that there is even a possiblity of fraud going on here.

[betterdemsonly]

37. The fact that they shot down Ukrainian military aircraft

does not prove they shot a civilian non-ukrainian airplane. The hostilities are on both sides. The Ukrainians do have the capability to shoot down the plane. There is much fascism on both sides as well. Evidently the great hero of the Ukrainian side was an actual nazi sympathizer.

White supremacist banners and Confederate flags were draped inside Kiev’s occupied City Hall, and demonstrators have hoisted Nazi SS and white power symbols over a toppled memorial to V.I. Lenin. After Yanukovich fled his palatial estate by helicopter, EuroMaidan protesters destroyed a memorial to Ukrainians who died battling German occupation during World War II. Sieg heil salutes and the Nazi Wolfsangel symbol have become an increasingly common site in Maidan Square, and neo-Nazi forces have established “autonomous zones” in and around Kiev.

An Anarchist group called AntiFascist Union Ukraine attempted to join the Euromaidan demonstrations but found it difficult to avoid threats of violence and imprecations from the gangs of neo-Nazis roving the square. “They called the Anarchists things like Jews, blacks, Communists,” one of its members said. “There weren’t even any Communists, that was just an insult.”

“There are lots of Nationalists here, including Nazis,” the anti-fascist continued. “They came from all over Ukraine, and they make up about 30% of protesters.

”

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukraine_partner/

[geek tragedy]

38. Still waiting for your first fact supporting your thesis that the allegations

against St. Vladimir and his henchmen in Ukraine are a fraud.

Yes, the Ukrainians could have shot at the plane. But there's no reason to think they did.

There is plenty of reason to think the separatists did. You may dismiss them, but the facts pointing in their direction do exist.

The social media post by the head terrorist is a fact.

The US finding a radar lock and missile coming from the separatists territory is a fact.

The many reports of the separatists moving anti-aircraft missiles into that area is a fact.

The rebels preventing investigators from accessing the scene is a fact.

You can dismiss or haggle about each one independently. Stack them up, and for you to deny them indicates your objection is not due to reason but your own ideological agenda.

[betterdemsonly]

40. I never presented such a thesis

I only stated the fact that there is no proof or real evidence yet. Stomp your feet some more.

[geek tragedy]

46. if you say there is no evidence pointing at the rebels, then you are

making a patently false statement.

There is plenty of evidence--that you make a personal, biased decision to disregard such evidence does not change the fact that it is evidence.

[betterdemsonly]

48. I don't think websites are good evidence.

They can be fabricated.

[geek tragedy]

49. and the fact that the only ones shooting at aircraft in the area in the area

were rebels?

Here's how your illustrious rebels are explaining this:

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/rebel_suggests_malaysia_plane_victims_long_dead/

MOSCOW (AP) — A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that “a significant number of the bodies weren’t fresh,” adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition

What caused this fellow to make such a claim, do you suppose?

[betterdemsonly]

51. I don't know, but people in warfare do tend to be paranoid.

The rebels are a number of groups, and not a united entity, just as the Ukrainians are.

[geek tragedy]

53. do you really claim that the fact that the rebels had shot down multiple planes

in the week before, combined with the fact that Ukraine had not shot at a plane once (since they own all the planes), that those two facts provide no insight or clues as to the likely culprits in shooting down this plane?

Really?

Doesn't give you any idea who would have been more likely to have tried to shoot down a plane in that area?

[betterdemsonly]

55. No they don't

The Ukrainians don't own the Malaysian plane!

[geek tragedy]

57. none so blind as those who will not see.

last word is yours

[PosterChild]

72. +100 !!! (nt)

[Cha]

79. Remember geek.. "America is bad, too".. We can blame this on Obama somehow. It couldn't have

been Putin's fault.. putin says so.

Speaking of intelligent sane people.. I'll repost this from Josh Marshall of TPM kpete http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025256190#post2

Find extremists and hot-heads of the lowest common denominator variety, seed them with weaponry only a few militaries in the world possess - and, well, just see what happens. What could go wrong?

The audio tapes posted by The New York Times might as well be from some future Russia-based version of Waiting for Guffman or Best in Show, a comical rendering of rustics and morons stumbling into an event of vast carnage and international consequence mainly because they're hotheads and idiots - the kind of people no one in their right minds would give world class weaponry to. It's like finding some white supremacist/militia types on their little compound in the inter-Mountain west and giving them world class missile launchers and heavy armaments.

end snip//

"In a paradoxical way, I think the future ramifications of this are almost greater because it is about Russia's recklessness and bumbling than it would be if it were more clearly a matter of intent. This is a f'-up on Putin's part of almost mind-boggling proportions. Yes, a tragedy. Yes, perhaps an atrocity. But almost more threatening, a screw up. Malign intent is one thing. So is aggression. But goofs of this magnitude by someone who controls a massive military arsenal and nuclear weapons are in a way more threatening."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/game-changer--5

[geek tragedy]

81. The conspiracy nuts are comparing this to Gulf of Tonkin. nt

Because, truth.

[Cha]

87. Hate America First.. anything to distract from Putin's Fuckup. nm

[geek tragedy]

88. And the psychological need to feel special

by creating their own version of the "truth" that only they and other special, brilliant people can see.

[The Magistrate]

6. So You Are Alleging The Plane Was Shot Down By U.S. Agency, Sir

It is best to have these things out in the open, after all.

[betterdemsonly]

8. I don't know that it was shot down on purpose at all.

Last edited Sat Jul 19, 2014, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

It could be a fubar on either side, but were it America, and were it a fubar on the other side, America would be motivated to use it to put the pressure on Putin. They can't forgive him for squashing their Syria plans.

[The Magistrate]

10. High-Test Barn-Yard Product, Sir, Pure And Undiluted

You suggested it was a reasonable possibility the plane was shot down by United States agency. You seem to still be maintaining that is a possibility. That is simply sewage, and suggests you really have no business commenting on matters of state.

[betterdemsonly]

13. Aparently you have a problem with democracy.

You aren't my boss!

[geek tragedy]

16. You have as much right to comment on this as Sarah Palin does. nt

[betterdemsonly]

23. That is really pathetic!

You can't debate facts so you engage in putdowns.

[geek tragedy]

26. I have provided all of the facts in this discussion.

You have provided nothing but wild-eyed speculation.

[betterdemsonly]

30. No you just arrived at conclusions based on little evidence

and selective reading. Selective reading that presents a misleading picture of what was said and done.

[geek tragedy]

31. Still waiting for you to provide a single fact that serves as evidence

that someone other than Team Russia did this.

It is not the rest of the world's fault that the facts are biased against your silly little conspiracy theory, for which you have admitted you have no factual support.

Just because the facts tend to show your viewpoint to be invaid and incorrect does not make an accurate recitation of them 'misleading.'

[betterdemsonly]

35. I don't have to present evidence that anyone other than team russia did it

There is no proof they did it. People are not guilty until proven innocent. You are not judge, jury and executioner.

[geek tragedy]

36. There is plenty of evidence they did it.

It is just that you do not want it to be true, so you deny they exist.

The side for which you are rooting in Ukraine did this. The better you come to grips with that, the better.

It is of course your choice to vehemently argue on behalf of Putin, Russia, and the terrorists they support in Ukraine.

But do not expect that choice to earn you much respect.

[betterdemsonly]

42. I don't expect your respect

Anyone can post on these boards claiming to be a dem.

[geek tragedy]

44. Yes, even apologists for a rightwing dictator like Putin

can register here and claim to be Democrats.

[betterdemsonly]

45. You're either with us, or with the Terrorist! n/t

[geek tragedy]

47. hard to be a Democrat and support a rightwing oligarchical fascist

dictator like Mr Putin, no?

[betterdemsonly]

52. Oh come off it

I support Putin, to the degree the establishment Party support the Saudis.

[geek tragedy]

54. 'the establishment Party"--who might that be? nt

[betterdemsonly]

56. The beltway Democrats and Republicans n/t

[Squinch]

83. Bahahahaha. You just said all those things and then you said this! Bahahahaha!

[The Magistrate]

64. A Common Delusion, Sir: Democracy Does Not Mean Ignorance Is As Good As Knowledge

It means that the mass of people ought to be able to direct government policy, since, among other reasons, if it is bad policy they will be the ones who pay the forfeit.

It does not mean that people who reveal themselves to be ignorant or foolish, or who show themselves to be liars, must not be subject to scorn, accurately described, made to feel ashamed, told to shut their yaps till they had some idea what they were talking about, and so on....

[geek tragedy]

15. "I don't know that it was shot down at all"

Then you are well behind the rest of the planet, and really should educate yourself before posting nonsense like this.

And you should keep your story straight--you keep on changing it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5258360

There is no disputing it was shot down

[betterdemsonly]

20. You are so damn desperate to enforce order

you leave out the words "on purpose"

[geek tragedy]

22. I see, so someone bumped the radar-guided missile with their

elbow and it wound up shooting down an airplane at 33,000 feet in the air?

You still haven't provided one fact that points to a party other than the rebels doing this.

[magical thyme]

60. they need to verify who was on the phone

But the 3 phone calls are pretty damning.

The pro-Russian separatists did it. It was a massive mistake on their part; their calls reveal they thought it was a large military transport plane.

I'm surprised that commercial flights aren't diverting around the Ukraine, knowing that they've been shooting down military craft in the region.

[HooptieWagon]

39. Not quite. There were two incidents.

The first was definately exchanges of shots between NV torpedo boats and US ships and planes. US Navy ships, inc a carrier commanded by Jim Morrison's ( Doors singer) father were in disputed waters gathering intelligence and probing NV's defenses. Several NV torpedo boats did make a high speed run towards the destroyer USS Maddox. Maddox fired warning shots, torpedo boats fired torpedos and machine guns. Heavy gunfire from Maddox and US aircraft sank 3 of the torpedo boats. This occurred during daytime, there are even photos of the incident declassified and online.
The second incident, "The" incident, occurred two days later, at night. Maddox crew, perhaps overly jumpy, mistook radar ghost imagines for another torpedo boat attack. Maddox fired many shots at the ghost images, no wreckage found. Navy quickly concluded it was a mistake. However, US intelligence (including the NSA) reported it as a unprovoked attack. Before the reports were discredited a few days later, Pres Johnson had already announced he would be increasing military presence in Vietman.
So, POTUS and others in govt were already itching for war. Govt knew second incident was an error almost immediately. This was not reported to media and public. However, the first incident did definately occur, although was a response to US saber-rattling.

[TBF]

66. "Just cripple their economy with sanctions" -

and make sure Exxon Mobil gets all the fracking contracts?

That's the most honest thing I've seen on this board today.

[geek tragedy]

69. No, cripple their economy to deter future

armed aggression. Especially if their behavior does not change radically.

[TBF]

91. Right. If Ukraine had no resources I might fall for that. nt

[geek tragedy]

94. All the more reason to deter Russia from

trying to grab them again. They belong to Ukraine, not Putin.

[TBF]

96. Nor do they belong to the EU/US -

they belong to the people of Ukraine.

[sabrina 1]

85. Post your evidence, we have not seen any so far. I note that in the International media

from countries like India eg, there is great skepticism about the rush to judgement on this. I am happy to see that except for the Western Corporate Media, the world media is asking the question 'Qui bono'. They are remembering Iraq and listening to Dick Cheney and as could be expected, very, very concerned that even before the bodies have been removed, the Western media KNOWS who did it.

[The Magistrate]

2. And By This You Mean What, Sir?

Are you saying the plane was not really shot down?

Are you saying the plane was shot down through U.S. agency?

Have you seen any person in the Executive branch of government in the United States, anyone with actual responsibility and authority, calling for war with Russia in reaction to the destruction of the plane?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. But..but.we can trust our government to never lie or distort anything.

And, we can count on our government to treat all aggressive nations the same...except when they happen to be our allies...or supply us with oil..or share secrets with us...or...buy our congress.

[HooptieWagon]

9. Vietman war was happening long before Tonkin.

The French were fighting there in the 50s, before cutting their losses. Eisenhower sent advisors there, Kennedy sent more. Tonkin was the excuse to drastically ramp up US involvement.

[Octafish]

34. That is true. But phony Tonkin ''attacks'' were the excuse LBJ used to send in draftees.

While he escalated the number of advisors -- all volunteers -- President John F. Kennedy had vowed never to send in draftees. Realizing the Pentagon and CIA were misguiding him and the nation into an unwinnable war, JFK ordered the withdrawal of US forces from Vietnam in National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) 263. President Lyndon B. Johnson rescinded those orders with NSAM 273, officially making it U.S. policy to commit whatever military support the government of South Vietnam needed.

[HooptieWagon]

50. First attack was real...

... although a NV response to US saber rattling. It occured during daylight, there's even declassified pics online.
Second "attack", 2 days later at night, was most likely an honest error by Maddox crew. Navy officials had concluded it was an error almost immediately. US intelligence didn't disclose the error, although they knew it was. At some point, Johnson was aware the second "attack" was an error, but had already made up mind to escalate military involvement. The reason the Navy was there to begin with was to gather intelligence and provoke NV.

[Octafish]

58. Yup. Seeing how the USS Maddox was in North Vietnam's territorial waters...

...on OPLAN-34A skullduggery, er, I mean, "business," I can see how CIA and NSA wouldn't want to talk about it. A liberal president, OTOH, I thought would.

AUGUST 3, 1964: PRESIDENT JOHNSON DISCUSSES AN INCIDENT IN THE GULF OF TONKIN WITH DEFENSE SECRETARY ROBERT S. McNAMARA (IN TWO CONVERSATIONS)

On August 2, 1964, the American destroyer Maddox, on patrol off the coast of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, was attacked by several North Vietnamese torpedo boats. The attack happened hours after South Vietnamese raiders struck at two targets on the North Vietnamese coast as part of a U.S. program of graduated covert pressure against the North that was known as Operations Plan (OPLAN)-34A. This marked the beginning of a series of events that has come to be called the Tonkin Gulf incident.

The Maddox was actually on an intelligence mission off the northern coast, carrying with a van of extra communications and electronics gear along with a complement of specialists from the Naval Security Group, a naval complement to the National Security Agency. Their task was to intercept North Vietnamese communications. The ship was in international waters when attacked, but had been inside territorial waters claimed by North Vietnam when Hanoi's torpedo boats were sent to sea. Vietnamese authorities have disclosed that the response was ordered by local commanders without reference to Hanoi. The Maddox did not expect any attack-the mission commander had been briefed in Taiwan previously that there would be none - but she was also completely unaware of the provocation to North Vietnam that had occurred simultaneously in the form of the OPLAN-34A strikes. There was no real surprise, however. The North Vietnamese torpedo boats' communications were intercepted, as well as the orders sending them out, and the craft were detected as they approached the U.S. warship. In the ensuing battle two of the three boats were sunk and the third badly damaged, with no losses to the Maddox. The action in the Tonkin Gulf took place in the afternoon local time, which was before dawn in Washington, and by early morning in the capital there was a scramble to decide what to do about the situation.

This telephone call represents the first conversation between President Johnson and defense secretary Robert McNamara on the incident. Johnson had already had some conversations with political advisers, and it is noteworthy that his talk with McNamara centers on handling political aspects of the incident. It is also notable that McNamara in this conversation clearly favors explaining to Congress the link between the incident and the OPLAN-34A activities. McNamara would take the position in later public hearings that he was unaware of any such link and as a result would be the target of intense criticism. LBJ himself was well aware of the connection and had explained it to an adviser in a different conversation less than an hour earlier. The president here tells McNamara to limit discussion to key congressional figures, including Speaker of the House John McCormick, Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield, and Minority Leader Everett Dirksen. From this telephone call it appears that McNamara's later public comments were made under instruction from Lyndon Johnson.

SOURCE w/links, details and audio: http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/tapes.htm

As I am old, this question has bothered me a long time.

[stevenleser]

11. Hopelessly conflating past and present events without a tie-in isn't making your point.

Gulf of Tonkin - Lie

Downing of Malaysian jet - Really did happen.
----------
Gulf of Tonkin - US/President Johnson really did want to get into a war with Vietnam

Downing of Malaysian jet - US/President Obama does not want to go to war with Russia (he and 99.999% of Americans want to live, we're funny that way)
----------
Gulf of Tonkin - No attempt at international verification of events

Downing of Malaysian jet - OSCE investigation team is already on the ground there
----------
Gulf of Tonkin - Minor country with whom the US had a disagreement in the middle of a civil war. Various major powers took sides.

Downing of Malaysian jet - Conflict totally created by major power Russia to beat up on Ukraine and foment a civil war to annex more of Ukraine's territory.
----------
etc.

[zappaman]

14. Nope.

[conservaphobe]

18. Thanks for the history lesson.

Is it the anniversary or something?

[Rex]

43. Not a very good one. nt

nt

[gwheezie]

24. I'm old enough to remember the Tonkin lie

and never believed the wmd Iraq lie. The destruction of the plane in Ukraine does not quite smell like the others but at the same time, it is not clear to me what all the connections are, so I am glad Obama is the president and not Mccain or Mitt. I am waiting for more information, I am waiting for a case to be made against whoever did this, I am waiting for facts to be sifted from speculation. I am positive however that the downing of a commercial plane does not require we go to war.

[handmade34]

28. thanks for link to PBS video n/t

[Rex]

41. The first war between French-Indochina started in 1946

We entered into the conflict during the second Indochina war in 1955. The Gulf of Tonkin didn't happen until 1964...so if you want to believe THAT is what got us into Vietnam...then that is your right, but you should realize that Truman already had military advisers on the ground actively helping the French as early as 1950.

[imthevicar]

61. a handful of Military Advisers is one thing

But a Half a million troops is quite another.

[former9thward]

63. That lie got us into war, not Vietnam.

We have military advisers in dozens of countries. We are not at war in most of them. Johnson was able to manipulate Congress into passing the Gulf of Tonkin resolution which was an effective declaration of war. It authorized U.S. combat forces to enter into combat in Vietnam. And the rest is history.

[TBF]

68. There are quite a few Viet Nam vets alive still

who know they were in Viet Nam before 1964 even if we weren't "officially" there. These guys are in their 60s now but they're still around and not all of them are out of their minds.

There was a long lead up to that "conflict" ...

[PeoViejo]

80. One of my late HS classmates was KIA in VN in 1963

He came to visit us at school, having just graduated from Boot Camp. He told us he was on his way to VN. We found out later that he was KIA 2 Weeks after arriving there. Just out of Boot Camp is not what one would consider an Adviser.

[Jackpine Radical]

59. Remember the Maine!!11!

Really--Remember the Maine. It was not hit by the Spanish. The Spanish-American War was started on fraudulent grounds just like all the others.

[imthevicar]

62. The Explosion Came from the inside.

just as the Spanish insisted. The Lusitania only took 1 torpedo to send it to the bottom in less than an hour, But it's sister ship the Moratania took several and still managed to sail over 100 miles and make it to London. The 4 Aircraft carriers in the Pacific in 1941 were forbidden to sail into Perl before the attack, and everything on Battleship row was at most 1 year to the scrap yard. The US has a History of Using False Flag operations to get us into the war of choice. Why do people forget this? I no longer have any confidence in the Government. TOO MANY LIES!

[geek tragedy]

76. Pearl Harbor a false flag?

No sane person believes that,

[Jackpine Radical]

84. Not a false flag. Just avoidable.

And maybe deliberately left exposed to enemy attack.

[RufusTFirefly]

65. Don't forget the innocent babies that Iraqi soldiers dumped out of the incubators

"Too bad it never happened. The babies in the incubator story is a classic example of how easy it is for the public and legislators to be mislead during moments of high tension. It's also a vivid example of how the media can be manipulated if we do not keep our guards up."

From the Christian Science Monitor, a well-known conspiracy rag:

When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators

[geek tragedy]

86. Are you denying the plane was shot down, or trying to deflect

blame from the likely perpetrators, the separatists?

[billhicks76]

67. 911 Anyone?

Or are you too timid and more concerned with personal image than the truth ? Same old story...different wars.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Oh by the way, I've cracked the code

[billhicks76]

73. I Don't Watch Videos Here...no time

But the first casualty of war is always truth.

[geek tragedy]

78. Please enlighten us on the truth of MH17. nt

[billhicks76]

89. You Misinterpreted

Mine is just a general comment. I'm allowed right? 911 concerns me because I believe it was facilitated by Cheneys buddies to get us in all these wars which the public would never have supported. If you follow history you would know our military has argued to invade the Middle East for decades and they wanted to nuke and then invade the USSR in the 50s. They also along with Kissinger wanted to nuke Vietnam so I don't put anything past these killers and my mind isn't small enough to believe they would never use deception as a tactic. I think the rebels shot this plane down by mistake but that's just one persons opinion. I do know they covered up the downing of TWA800 though. I personally know the Aerospace professor who went on CNN dismissing the missile theory. His entire career was cloaking banned military research by disguising it as non-enduse research. He was developing FAEs while cloaking the research as mining elevator shaft explosion with dust turbulence examinations. He worked closely with the CIA and the military by making a career out of lying for profit. I'm glad his career ended poorly. My guess is TWA800 was a mistake too given all the military activity in the area before and after but one never knows when their government and war contractors are in the business of lying.

[geek tragedy]

90. Ok. Peace. nt

[geek tragedy]

75. The truth is that Russian separatists shot

down a civilian airliner, and that Islamist extremists perpetrated 9/11. Are you afraid to admit the truth ?

[billhicks76]

93. Yeah I'm Real Afraid

Yeah I must believe Cheney and Bush FACILITATED(you understand what that word means right?) 911 because I just can't make sense of this topsy, turvy world and that conclusion fits my predesigned narrative that needs answers whether they exist or not. The world is crazy, chaotic and unpredictable and my fragile belief system NEEDS a simple explanation lest I shake in fear. HAHAHAHA... Yes. You have it figured out. God help those who have witnessed criminal conspiracies before or seen those who could never accept government involvement even if it was proven and admitted right to their face. I suggest you learn what the word facilitate means and maybe entertain the thought that things aren't always as they appear and that some really do idolize the "man behind the curtain" types. They certainly know that people have refused to believe their past high crimes and know they previously were allowed to get away with a whole lot and could push the boundaries even further with trillions of war dollars to be made precipitated with unlimited power to the corporate elite. As for Ukraine I believe it was mistakenly shot down because it was misidentified. I'm sure if Ukraine did it to escalate the US into action that Putin could provide evidence. Highly unlikely and no motive unlike Cheney and Company. It was a mistake.

[og1]

71. For every action there is a reaction

We need to understand that things don't always appear as they seem to appear. We need to understand that the bric's are about to create their own development bank and to establish their own currency pool to compete with the IMF and to eliminate the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. The us wants to isolate Russia and dissolve the Bric's

[geek tragedy]

74. Which has nothing to do with the separatists shooting

down of an airliner.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

77. How about THIS for a reaction?

Stop thinking it's safe to fly commercial jets over war zones just because they're at 30,000 feet and that's beyond the range of foot soldiers with RPGs.

[betterdemsonly]

82. Really. You should post something about it, with some links

I knew that was part of the reason they hated Chavez, but I didn't realize the brics were doing it too.

[Scuba]

92. "Yes we do have neocon dems." Boy, do we ever. Neocon DUers too.

[geek tragedy]

95. And we have fascist DUers-- the ones who carry water

for the fascist oligarchy in Moscow.

Last seen trying to blame this on Ukraine.

I do not care for neocons--who does--but fascists are even worse.