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[Spider Jerusalem]

1. I'm not sure "pro-Russia", or "pro-Putin" is the right term

so much as, possibly, "anti-American", or at least, "anti-American government". There's a certain sort of person on the political left who sees the US government as the source of most of the world's evil and fundamentally not trustworthy; this makes people who are opposed to what they see as the sinister machinations of the US government and the corrupt military-industrial-financial complex allies of convenience by default, in a sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend, or at least, not my enemy" way.

The reasons for this sort of anti-Americanism are, probably at least in part, because of perceptions of the US as being principally an imperialistic capitalist actor in international affairs; anti-imperialism, anti-militarism, and anti-capitalism are probably all important factors in shaping this worldview, to varying degrees.

[BainsBane]

3. I can understand that

but when it gets into accepting everything Russia says uncritically, that I don't get. What ideological purpose does that serve? What is "leftist" about supporting the likes of Putin? Have they forgotten Russia is no longer communist?

I can't help thinking there is some deep psychological issue at working relating to relationships with fathers.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. Well...

I don't think they see it as "supporting Putin" so much as "opposition to the imposition of Western-style austerity capitalism on Ukraine via IMF bailouts and harsh conditions for EU accession". (This is how the issues around the Ukraine-EU agreement are most commonly framed.) Which is a wilfully blind way of looking at the issue; the most relevant comparison would be with the other Eastern European states in the former Soviet sphere of influence that have acceded to the EU; Poland and the Balkan states have all experienced significant economic growth from EU membership that they wouldn't have had they remained aligned with Russia.

Of course the historical issues of Russification in the Ukrainian east since Tsarist times, coupled with Putin's revanchist tendencies and the geostrategic importance of the base at Sevastopol for the Russian Navy, make the Ukrainian situation somewhat unique.

[BainsBane]

14. That still doesn't explain

uncritical acceptance of Russian propaganda.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. "The US government lied about WMD in Iraq! And the US media backed them up!"

"therefore the US government is lying about the evidence of who shot down the plane, and the media are backing them up!"

That seems to be the thought process (if it can even be characterised as a "thought process" rather than a gut-level reaction); the assumption that the USA is a bad actor in international affairs, and that the "truth the US media won't report" comes from sources that have nearly opposite biases.

[BainsBane]

46. Thanks

I think you've probably explained it about as well as anyone can.

[Hekate]

25. I've been mulling over that Freudian thing since last night...

Someone (either you or Spider J., come to think of it) pointed out the uncritical antipathy of some on the left in the US toward the supposed omnipotence of the US in the world, and it got me thinking.

That's how children view their parents: omnipotent. Two year olds are pretty sure they can say and do anything to their parents and the parents can't be hurt by it. Teenagers know better, but some of them definitely mean to hurt their parents for being omnipotent and yet disappointing.

This is shorthand, as you and I know, but when it comes to a particular skewed view of the US vis a vis the rest of the world I'm beginning to think there's something in it. Uncle Sam has often disappointed all of us and has often been mistaken, but he's neither omniscient nor omnipotent, for either good or ill.

[Coventina]

2. You nailed it!

I fairly recently returned after a self-imposed long absence from this place.

At the time I left, Putin was pretty universally regarded as the totalitarian creep he is.

I've been STUNNED by the amount of Putin apologists here.

[cali]

4. Granted, I haven't paid close attention, but I really haven't seen

a lot of pro-russia, pro-putin posts here lately.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. Well, there's one guy, who got a handful of people to agree with him

that the Ukrainians were to blame for shooting down the airliner because he claimed the separatists didn't have the sort of weaponry they actually boasted about having captured.

Other than that, not a lot of pro-Russia stuff around that I've seen either.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014756180#post20
In the sub-thread after that, they end up saying he and Reagan are/were better leaders than Obama.

[cali]

13. yep, that person is full of shit and definitely an apologist for Putin

I've never even seen any of his posts before this. I think my point is (and maybe I'm wrong) that these folks are a very small minority here.

[snooper2]

17. Well, at least he/she nailed my first bullet point from this OP

"For the record, I have no love lost for Putin but a strong Putin and a strong Russia is the only thing that stands between US/EU led imperialism in the world."


Even used the "but" LOL

[OilemFirchen]

12. You tried this gambit once before,

imploring the audience to show proof of these pro-Putin members. Following cite after cite, your interest in evidence disappeared. Poof.

Coy never really goes out of fashion, right?

[cali]

15. coy is one thing I'm not bucko. And yes, I maintain that it's a very small minority

though speaking of "coy", I think it's "coy" to try and make it look like this is a lot of duers and an actual significant pov here.

I'm lots of things. Coy isn't one of them. I speak my mind directly and don't play games. Perhaps it's something you do? Projecting maybe?

[OilemFirchen]

19. I was being generous.

Let me reword that, shall I?

Insincerity is all the vogue, right little missy?

[Hekate]

23. I saw what you did there

[OilemFirchen]

24. Don't tell anyone.

It'll be our little secret.

[cali]

26. Yes, my male chauvenist oinker pal, because you have evidence of that right?

You have all those posts of mine siding with Putin and Russia. Too bad for YOU, they don't exist. So, nope YOU don't have any evidence that I'm being insincere. I, oth, do have evidence of you being disingenuous- to put it kindly.

Oh, and "bucko" is not a pig sexist term. "little missy" is. bucko.

[OilemFirchen]

33. You should get together with BainsBane.

She's been on a quest for months now trying to prove my gender.

That said, I'd love to see your evidence of my being "disingenuous". I always love reading about me.

[cali]

34. what? you think I actually give a fuck about your gender? bzzzt.

you just ain't that interesting, sweetheart- well, except for yourself. And the evidence is contained right in your posts in this thread!

[OilemFirchen]

39. You gave a fuck about my gender in your preceding post.

What a peculiar little person.

[conservaphobe]

6. BRAVO, BRAVO!

How to respond to a thread like this which nails you to the wall:

"HERP DERP haven't seen anything like that going on HERP DERP can you give me a link? HERP DERP"

[cali]

8. what or who are you referring to? As you specifically

post a false quote that is not far off from what I wrote, it is reasonable to assume that you are referring to me. If so you should humbly beg my forgiveness. I have never said anything in support of Putin and though I don't make a habit of demonizing nations- it's stupid for one thing- I have never "supported" Russia- whatever that means in your little noggin.

[conservaphobe]

18. Didn't even read what you posted.

Went straight for the reply button after reading the original post.

And for what's it worth, I have read many of your posts and none even remotely defend Putin.

[cali]

27. fair enough.

[Aerows]

9. Lordy

What I could say to this post would get me banned, and I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler person.

Accusing DUer's of being anti-American and pro-Russia ticks me off, but I refuse to respond in kind.

[Electric Monk]

43. Welcome to CostCo... I love you...

(I know how you feel...)

[mathematic]

11. Remember to Just Ask Questions

What kind of fascist is afraid of a few questions? What are you trying to hide?

[Rex]

20. .

[U4ikLefty]

21. ant-American cred...really???

Am I back in 2003?

BTW I am against "ANT-AMERICANS" and their queen!!!

[The Magistrate]

22. Well Done, Sir

Here is another splendid praticioer of the trade, at present off in the cooler....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014850023#post54

[cali]

30. I think I've seen more posts about Putin/Russia fans than I have actual.. Putin/Russia fans

maybe there are more of them than I'm aware of or maybe some folks are making it out to be a bigger phenomenon than it is. Or maybe both.

[The Magistrate]

31. As You Said, Ma'am, You Have Not Been Paying Much Attention To Events In Ukraine

And so are understandably not too familiar with the ebb and flow of discussion of them here over the last few months. It has been too prominent a feature.

[cali]

35. actually, my magistrial friend, I did not say that.

I said I wasn't paying much attention to the threads on that issue here at DU. You seem to be confusing paying attention to threads on a topic that are posted on DU with following events.

[The Magistrate]

37. In Any Case, Ma'am, You Made Clear You Do Not Know Anything About the Subject You Commented On

Namely whether there is an appreciable quotient of pro-Putin propagandizing appearing on this forum.

There is.

[cali]

44. No, my magisterial friend, I did not. I said I didn't

I said that I hadn't tuned in closely to every thread on the issue. You appear to believe that is tantamount to "not knowing anything".


It is not.

I have no clue as what you consider an appreciable quotient of pro-Putin propagandizing. I suspect your definition of "appreciable quotient" and mine may differ. I've definitely seen more ops complaining about it than OPs propagandizing Putin.

[The Magistrate]

45. Thank You For The Laugh, Ma'am

I do have other things to do today, and always prefer to beak off with a smile....

[SidDithers]

40. That poster has also been boomersense, plethoro and neoralme...

boomersense:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014638274#post12
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014638274#post3

plethoro
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101791969#post2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/122813262#post7

neoralme:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1239156&mesg_id=1246711
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562256

ballyhoo:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017182895#post4
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/1014848012#post2


Zombies are everywhere at DU right now, because there's basically no consequence to getting banned. Disruptors get nuked, and sign up with new accounts at will. And by the time MIRT figures them out, the zombies are often out of MIRT's purview. You've been vocal about noticing them too, over the last few days.

Sid

[The Magistrate]

42. Indeed, Sir: His Name Is Legion

I agree there is a gap in the coverage which ought to be plugged.

[Union Scribe]

28. You realize you just argued against

keeping an open mind and reviewing all information. I guess that does fit a particular type of American attitude though doesn't it.

[The Magistrate]

32. No, Sir, He Did Not

He spoke against claiming one is keeping an open mind and reviewing all information when in fact, one is simply parroting a different propaganda line, to which one is predisposed by a belief whoever is expressing hostility to the United States is surely right, since the United States and its leadership are always in the wrong.

"One should keep an open mind, but not so open one's brains fall out."

[DonCoquixote]

29. K and R

It is possible to say the US is wrong without lauding Czar Vladimir.

[Astrad]

36. It's possible to discuss this with being neither pro-russian or anti-american

I look at nation states as pursuing political interests. Events are opportunities or crises for those interests. For Russia right now this is a crisis. For the nation state of america it's an opportunity. America is just behaving rationally in regards to its interests which are to ensure Russia doesn't emerge as a rival superpower again and remains dis-integrated from Europe. It will leverage this event to pursue those aims. For Russia, this is a disaster as it will likely further isolate it financially from the world economy which it has become increasingly dependent on it, particularly its oligarchs. It will also make the defense of the Russian minorities in satellite states that much more difficult which will create domestic political problems for whomever's in power, in this case Putin.

Obviously the facts aren't all in. But looking at it rationally, the downing of this aircraft was most likely a mistake. That's no comfort to anyone especially the relatives of the people on board but that's where I would place my bet. I see no benefit to the separatists or Russia from doing it intentionally. What's important is that the world doesn't allow a mistake to lead to greater conflict and bloodshed. This is the danger of the situation and an unfortunate consequence of state's looking at events as opportunities.

[Zorra]

38. This gone beyond leftist has a proud and pure net record of despising that hateful venomous toad. nt

[2banon]

41. I'm sickened by the scores of John Bircher Style Reactionary Red Baiting appearing on this site

Straight out from the 50's, 60's & 70's. Thought those freaking days were over.

But then again, us gals thought the days when Women had to keep fighting for birth control rights were over, SCOTUS made sure that clock was turned back.

Disgusting thread. going to the trash.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Reds? Where are 'reds' involved in this?

There's not a communist in sight. What communist country or faction are you thinking of?

[cui bono]

49. +1

And the fact that there are so many of these childish and divisive OPs and that they are left to stand shows how low a level of discourse and critical thinking DU has sunk to. Not at all what it was when I joined.

[mainer]

47. Where are these Putinistas all coming from?

We seem to have a plague of Putin apologists all over DU. Blaming the Ukraine government. Or the poor dead MH17 pilots. Or European ATC.