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[kentuck]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kentuck) on Thu Jul 24, 2014, 01:48 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[snooper2]

1. I just wish that the one final holy war would be over and done with

send all fundies to that fucking desert and have it out...

Easy Peasy...no bitching after it is said and done. No outside forces can influence the outcome----


Then the rest of the World can get on with things like listening to the greatness that is Bone Thugs-n-Harmony!

[Skidmore]

10. That is exactly what dispensationalists are hoping will happen.

One big conflagration to mark the end of the world and the return of the Messiah. Easy Peasy. I'm so sick of religious claptrap.

[snooper2]

13. well, let's get it over with...they can fight over that patch of crappy land in the desert

Then when it is over and 'Nothing happens religion will be in it's death throes...

or at least in my happy world

[leftynyc]

2. Who has been denying the holocaust?

And who has been using the holocaust to justify gaza? I don't happen to think Israel needs any justification other than the need to defend its citizens but I haven't seen anything like what you're positing in your post. On the contrary, what I have seen is people defending the attacks on Jews outside of Israel by essentially saying "what do you expect, end the occupation". That's the only justification nonsense I've seen and I can give you several examples. You first.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Exactly.

The only Holocaust references I am seeing are the ones comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. This is just another, "no, we know the Holocaust is sad, but this 10000 times worse."

[progressoid]

12. visit the Israel/Palestine forum.

people are being accused of denying the holocaust. People are being accused of lots of things there.

[leftynyc]

15. I've been there often in the last few days

I haven't seen it. I'll look again. Yes, I know all about the accusations. I've been called a warmonger.

[dsc]

3. denier no

but minimizer, yes. Several people have stated that what is going on in Gaza is the same as the Holocost, which is surely minimizing.

[leftynyc]

7. Absoultely

Even more disgusting are those who insist it's WORSE than the holocaust. How they think they can be taken seriously after uttering that nonsense is beyond me.

[notadmblnd]

9. How so? Seriously

Please explain how the systemic extermination of one group of people is different than the systemic extermination of another group of people.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

18. Seriously? I'll answer that.

And I've been highly critical of Israel here.

First, total numbers. Over the course of WW2, somewhere around 6 million Jewish people were rounded up and put in camps.
Second, what went on in those camps - those people were marched into gas chambers and murdered en masse.

What's going on in Gaza is horrible, but if the Israelis wanted to be 'as bad as' Nazi Germany, they would have killed a hell of a lot more Palestinians than they have so far, and a lot more efficiently.

The Israelis have learned more bad habits from Americans than they have from Germans.

[LWolf]

5. I agree with this part:

What happened in the Holocaust does not give them a right to ignore all laws of humanity.

However, it's not correct to say that a tragedy cannot be used to justify more unethical violence.

Sure it can. It happens all the time. It's wrong, but it can happen, because it does.

[Swede Atlanta]

6. Here, here Kentuck....

You are not being anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. You are simply stating facts.

It is wrong to use the atrocities that were committed against not only Jews but homosexuals (like me), Gypsies, the mentally ill, political prisons, etc. 70+ years ago to justify the genocide of Palestinians today.

Regardless of who started this the best path forward is to find a way to a ceasefire. We must find a way to stop the bloodshed, take care of the injured, ensure there is adequate shelter and food for all those affected. Both sides must pull back from the brink.

I am not excusing the actions of the Palestinians but I can say that being pushed off you land by international mandate at the formation of Israel, being herded into camps and treated as 2nd class citizens for over 50 years would make one not have much hope for the future. That would easily make me mad enough to want to kill Israelis, become a suicide bomber, etc. I don't see the actions of most of the Palestinians even couched in religious hatred. This is mostly driven by historic tribal hatred and the remnants of the upheaval of the establishment of Israel.

We do Israel no favor by continuing to send them military hardware they turn around and use to kill Palestinians. It gives Israel no incentive to come and stay at the table and it makes Palestinians see us as being biased.

[TheKentuckian]

8. No one is obligated to sit under rocket fire because they haven't killed enough of them yet.

I don't get this argument of it is okay to shoot at people as long as you generally miss or they can generally avoid getting hit.

Is the intent not to kill and injure as many as possible?

It's okay, our body count isn't bad isn't going to sell anyone, anywhere. It is bullshit folks like to spout off about when they are not and likely never will be in such conditions with no memories of friends and relatives killed in nearly constant attacks for decades.

Nobody is going to sit for such shit, brother. Nobody, I can't even imagine what the US reaction would be based on our global reaction to a constant and direct threat and nobody ever is going to just let such a thing slide until the enemy gets better rockets and better at using them.

No matter what, to expect some game of tit for tat is absurd and a govern that plays it will be replaced by one who does value the lives of its citizens over an enemy (why do you think the current folks are in place?). Few believe such platitudes, they just are quite comfortable they will not have to live as they espouse.

Your advice to cut off aid is poor too, what do you think the reaction that would force would be in the region? Thinks Israel would not have to seriously consider a Michael Corleone solution.You sure they wouldn't be forced into one even if they didn't give in to such an inclination?
What leash do you think we'd really have, they have the bomb. What keeps them from going after all the old enemies while they still can? What is their viable option otherwise? Short term thinkers may not remember 1967 or put such considerations in their calculus but folks in the region aren't so quick to forget.

[Lee-Lee]

11. I'm not sure what you expect "proportionality" to look like

There has to be a proportionality when violence is used against our enemies. If there are a thousand rockets fired at Israel but very few, if any, Israelis are killed or wounded, that does not give the Israelis the legitimacy to invade, occupy, and destroy the people and the homes of their neighbors.

So if the Israelis had a worse defense network and more on their side got killed, then they could respond in a harsher way?

Being good at defense means you lose the ability to react?

That's like saying if somebody is shooting you buy you have a bulletproof vest that stops the rounds you shouldn't shoot back because they haven't harmed you enough yet.

How do you judge this supposed "proportionality". Number of dead? Then you make allowing your own to die an advantage and playing a good defense less desirable. Tons of ordnance fired?

The idea that Israel must take more casualties and damage before responding, when it's clear the goal of Hamas is to cause those casualties and damage they are just being less than successful at it, is crazy. It's like saying a woman who has a person attempting to rape her, who has told her his intent to rape her, isn't justified in shooting or stabbing her attempted rapist because she hasn't been "assaulted enough" to justify that response under these rules of "proportionality".

Seriously- when thousands of rockets are being fired, just how much is enough to justify a response?

[kentuck]

19. surely it must be true....

They had to be shooting at Israel. They must be bad shots? Or there might be a little propaganda and lies spread before us...

[BainsBane]

14. Two words that should never be used to discuss contemporary events

Holocaust and Hitler. Don't do it. Just don't. No one but Hitler is Hitler, and nothing is the same as the Holocaust. Most importantly, don't use those words to argue about Israel or Jews.

[enid602]

16. agreed

It's hard to be s holocaust denier when you witness it every day real timr on the internet.

[ann---]

17. The U.S. media is at fault

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/jeremy-scahill-us-media-coverage-gaza-israel_n_5617248.html

Jeremy Scahill On U.S. Media Coverage Of Israel-Gaza Conflict: 'We've Hit All-Time Lows'

Jeremy Scahill joined HuffPost Live on Wednesday to discuss his expose for the Intercept on the way the U.S. government handles its terrorist watchlist database. During the interview, host Alyona Minkovski asked the journalist about media coverage of the Israel-Gaza conflict, and Scahill had some strong opinions on the matter.

"We could say this every time I come on your show and talk to you: we've hit all-time lows with media coverage in this country," Scahill told Minkovski. "When you look at what's happening right now in Gaza, this is a massive massacre and one epic series of war crime after war crime, child after child being killed."

Scahill went on to say that "Israeli propagandists are largely given carte blanche to say what they want on American television with very little pushback."