Spanking The Gray Matter Out Of Our Kids (Yes, Don't Spank, Please)

[HuckleB]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/health/effects-spanking-brain/index.html?iid=article_sidebarHow

"...

Science tells a different story. Researchers say physical punishment actually alters the brain -- not only in an "I'm traumatized" kind of way but also in an "I literally have less gray matter in my brain" kind of way.

"Exposing children to HCP (harsh corporal punishment) may have detrimental effects on trajectories of brain development," one 2009 study concluded.

Harsh corporal punishment in the study was defined as at least one spanking a month for more than three years, frequently done with objects such as a belt or paddle. Researchers found children who were regularly spanked had less gray matter in certain areas of the prefrontal cortex that have been linked to depression, addiction and other mental health disorders, the study authors say.

The researchers also found "significant correlations" between the amount of gray matter in these brain regions and the children's performance on an IQ test.

..."


Yes, I hope this is obvious to most DUers, but the piece is actually well done, and well supported with links to studies.

[NaturalHigh]

1. Thanks for the post, HuckleB.

I don't doubt this for a second.

[HuckleB]

3. No problem.

I thought this one was worth sharing.

[Drahthaardogs]

45. Except that the p-value for Verbal IQ and Performance IQ is

0.058 and 0.848 which means, there really was no difference that was statistically significant. If you read the study it pretty much says there was no difference. All they could find were perceived differences on an MRI, which, according to the study, might actually be causative. e.g., corporal punishment does not cause changes in grey matter, but rather, children with changes in grey matter are more prone to discipline via corporal punishment.

In addition, they study had a sample size of 53, so its power was weak to begin with.


Sigh...psychology. The place where double-blinded studies and p-values are as rare as unicorns...

[redqueen]

2. 'but we can still hit them with our hands!' in 3, 2, 1...

Corporal punishment is really popular with some.

[HuckleB]

4. Uh oh.

Even at DU?

Take care.

[CreekDog]

5. yes, even at DU

indefensible.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2370551

[HuckleB]

7. Yikes.

Take care!

[NaturalHigh]

6. Unfortunately, yes.

[Luminous Animal]

11. And...

Here http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002280185

And here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024127486

There are dozens of threads and dozens of supporters of hitting children.

[uppityperson]

8. I would've been comparable to Einstein if I'd not been spanked?

or just not depressed, addicted and mentally ill?

[HuckleB]

14. My folks broke "The Board of Education" on my arse.

I'm an anecdote, too, but at least I have a good story. The three red butts turned into one butt and two half butts after that spanking.

[Luminous Animal]

9. Thanks for the post. Another piece of evidence to present to the child abusers.

And yes, I believe that any sort of spanking is child abuse.

[HuckleB]

23. I'm with you on that!

[awoke_in_2003]

10. Reccing for exposure...

when you have to hit a child you have lost control of yourself. I have never as much as had to have raised my voice at my grandchildren. It is amazing what a little talk and reasoning can do.

[JDPriestly]

38. Absolutely.

Parents who cannot resist the urge to spank or hit or beat their children are too impatient and don't deserve their children. Children are the greatest blessing a person can have. Parents who spank and hit and beat them do not realize what wonderful gifts they are ruining.

[hlthe2b]

12. Kids learn to imitate...

I remember as a very young kid seeing the neighbors' two children--who were just a tad older than me, grab a toddler, pull his pants down and swat him on his bare bottom. The crying child ran off (as did the offending children)...

I dare say I know where they learned this.

[mcar]

13. It is obvious to most DUers

But unfortunately not to some. The erroneous mindset of "I got spanked and turned out okay" does afflict even some liberals.

[whistler162]

15. Oh joy another test of the gullibility

of people.

You passed.

[Luminous Animal]

16. What does this even mean?

[kcr]

26. Do you think the earth is flat, too?

[JDPriestly]

39. When my first child was about three months old, a dear friend who had raised a family of five

said to me in German something to the effect of, "When my first child was about three months old, a dear friend who had raised a family of five emember. Whatever you give your child, your child will give to you."

That is the best rule.

Children do need self-discipline. They do need to learn their boundaries, their limits and that actions have consequences.

They do not need to be hit or spanked. Learn to talk to your child. Learn to listen to your child. That is how children learn how to think.

Why does a child have to go to bed at night? Explain that to the child. Ask the child to explain why to you. If the child does not get enough sleep and is tired the next day, explain quietly that the tiredness is the consequence of not getting enough sleep.

Teach your child to think for himself. Teach your child to figure out the natural consequences of actions for himself.

When you hit or spank a child, you take from that child the opportunity to think about or experience the consequences of the child's misconduct.

Spanking is strictly for the satisfaction of the parent. It does absolutely nothing to make the child wiser, more intelligent, more capable of figuring out right from wrong. Nothing is learned from spanking other than that daddy or mommy is angry and it's best to stay out of their way when they are angry.

A parent who cannot control his or her anger well enough to restrain him or herself from hitting or spanking (or beating) his child needs to take anger management classes. Children are not whipping posts.

[pnwmom]

17. On this I could not agree more. And it shouldn't be allowed in schools, either.

I just read about a boy who passed out after being beaten ("paddled&quot at school, and in his fall, broke his jaw and five teeth. And yet the court ruled in the school district's favor.

[HuckleB]

18. Luckily, it's not allowed in our school district.

It seems astounding -- to me, anyway -- that it's allowed in any school, at this point in history. Alas, I am becoming weary of how many things school districts get away with, any more. I guess they probably always did, but it seems like they'd be more accountable to the public.

Ugh.

[pnwmom]

74. It isn't in my state, either. But I grew up in a state where it was legal,

and I still remember the paddle hung on the wall in the classroom. When we moved to another state where paddling was against the law, the students were every bit as well behaved (or not -- neither school was made up of angels, just regular kids.) And I remember being so grateful for the new policy. I hated seeing kids hit.

[HuckleB]

89. Alas, now we have to worry about restraints being used without justification.

It's becoming a bigger problem across the country, it seems.

[LWolf]

69. Corporal punishment

has not been allowed at the districts or schools I've worked in (2 states) since the 1980s.

[pnwmom]

75. It's still legal in 19 states, mostly in the South. n/t

[Stellar]

19. Yep, those were the days...

Most kids got spanked in my neighborhood in the 1950's, myself included. Even teachers and Nuns were permitted to spank your hands. I spanked my kid once (my husband never did) but I felt I was hurting myself more than my kid, and he didn't shed a tear. He just looked upset. But, I tell you, kids seem much worse today than when I was their age.

[HuckleB]

20. What do you mean by "kids seem much worse today...?"

Thanks!

[Stellar]

21. I live in Chicago.

[HuckleB]

22. I know it's bad there this year, really bad.

Alas, I don't think we remember how bad it was growing up, mostly because the news didn't focus on violence as much, at the time.

[Stellar]

86. LOL...it's been bad here year after year

for at least the last seven years, and this news seem to be just getting out to the rest of the country more so this year (and they claim the murder rate is down this year).

So, I agree with your point that perhaps the news didn't focus on the violence as it does today, and I just wasn't aware of it like I am now.

I do feel that children of today care less about what their parents feel or think because their children know they can call police on them. Just the threat of punishment from their parents and children will call the police and report them. I've seen it happen.

[HuckleB]

90. The data doesn't seem to show that, however.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/May-2014/Chicago-crime-rates/

I actually see children far more engaged in discussion with parents today than in the past. I work with many at risk kids, and calling the police on their parents is not something they do.

[Stellar]

91. I retired in 2001.

I suppose things have changed. But I think this was shortly after it was first put into action...not spanking your children. But it did happen. What comes to mind is when Jeanette first told me about her child letting the police into her bedroom in the dark of night while she was sleeping, shinning a flashlight on her face demanding that she got dressed immediately and then handcuffing her. That's one story I remember quite well. Others are not so vivid.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

41. And what makes you think bad kids in Chicago aren't spanked?

[HuckleB]

50. I don't think was the point, really.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

58. OK, then what was the point?

The bit about, "But, I tell you, kids seem much worse today than when I was their age." What's the point of that?

[HuckleB]

60. I asked for clarification of that, so I'm going to wait to get the full story.

[Stellar]

87. I don't know if anybody can answer that question, I think some are maybe..

Are the good children spanked also? Do we need a poll for the good and the bad children being spanked, or not?

The only thing that I do know is that children know they can report their parents to the police if they are being spanked and the police will come to their rescue. Having worked for the dept of public aid for over thirty years, I've had the opportunity to talk to many parents where this subject would come up and you'll be glad to know (or not) most parents have stopped spanking their children.

It's the fear of the police coming to their house, putting the parent in handcuffs (behind their back), leading them out to the police car, this happens when the police comes to your house, while your neighbors look on. Embarrassing..

[Exultant Democracy]

24. “Spare the rod, spoil the child” -Proverbs 13:24. Need those kids stupid and complacent right?

It helps it explain why a lot of stupid things are so easily passed down from stupid parents down to kids they make sure become stupid adults.

[Louisiana1976]

31. True. That's why adults who were spanked by their parents spank their kids.

[RufusTFirefly]

25. I don't support corporal punishment, but the CNN article oversimplifies the conclusions

The cited research studied what it termed HCP, that is, harsh corporal punishment. Its conclusions weren't based on "ordinary" spanking:

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) considers spanking with an open hand for the purpose of behavior modification to be an acceptable form of punishment. However, this form of punishment becomes unacceptable if it involves use of an object, extends to regions beyond buttocks and extremities, is conducted out of anger, or results in injury. We defined harsh CP (HCP) as a severe form of CP, in which an object (e.g., belt, paddle, hair brush) was used on occasion for the purpose of disciplining a child, provided it did not extend beyond the buttocks, was not conducted out of anger, and did not result in injury.

Also, the researchers, mindful of a causative/correlative fallacy, made this observation (bold facing is mine):

Conclusions—Exposing children to harsh HCP may have detrimental effects on trajectories of brain development. However, it is also conceivable that differences in prefrontal cortical development may increase risk of exposure to HCP.

In other words, it's possible that children with self-control issues due to reduced gray matter volume in the prefrontal cortex are more likely to receive HCP.

Once again, let me stress: I am not personally endorsing corporal punishment, even though the American Academy of Pediatrics considers it acceptable. And I am definitely not endorsing harsh corporal punishment, which most would agree rises to the level of child abuse. My point is that all too often carefully done neuroscientific research is cherry-picked, dumbed down, and distorted by the popular media.

[kcr]

29. Hmmm. I go to the actual AAP website and it appears that is wrong.

http://www.aap.org/en-us/search/pages/results.aspx?k=spanking

http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/Spanking-Linked-to-Mental-Illness.aspx

In this link they talk about the harms of spanking http://www2.aap.org/sections/scan/practicingsafety/Modules/EffectiveDiscipline/EffectiveDiscipline.pdf

[RufusTFirefly]

32. Thanks for this!

So, the CNN article is distorting a source, which in turn is distorting another source!
Perhaps it was naive of me to assume that neuroscientists would do a better job of accurately citing information than a popular media site.

[kcr]

34. What are you talking about?

Neuroscientists citing information from a media site?

[RufusTFirefly]

35. No. Neuroscientists incorrectly citing an AAP position

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[kcr]

36. Oh, yes

No, that was probably me. I was genuinely confused

[HuckleB]

62. It appears to me that you're focusing on a small part of a big plant.

[RufusTFirefly]

67. Maybe so, but it mischaracterizes much of the research's conclusions

I'd say that's a fairly big deal.

Here's what the CNN article says defines harsh corporal punishment

Harsh corporal punishment in the study was defined as at least one spanking a month for more than three years, frequently done with objects such as a belt or paddle.

And here's what the research actually says

We defined harsh CP (HCP) as a severe form of CP, in which an object (e.g., belt, paddle, hair brush) was used on occasion for the purpose of disciplining a child, provided it did not extend beyond the buttocks, was not conducted out of anger, and did not result in injury. We focused on HCP rather than ordinary CP, which is much more common, hypothesizing that HCP would be associated with a stronger signal and more discernible effects. If associations emerged between imaging findings and HCP it would justify studies in a larger group of subjects exposed to ordinary CP.

See the difference?

It doesn't matter that I am personally opposed to all sorts of corporal punishment, harsh or otherwise. I just have issues with the way that the popular media routinely sensationalize and mischaracterize scientific studies. Talk to almost any cognitive scientist about about how the media and bestsellers completely warped the public's perception of the implications of brain laterality, for example, and you will get an earful, I assure you.

[HuckleB]

71. I don't see a huge difference.

[fishwax]

73. the CNN author's summary reflects how the study selected people for the HCP group

The quote that you've highlighted is how they differentiated HCP from regular old CP ... the author of the OP's summary probably comes from how the researchers defined the HCP population for their study:

The criteria for inclusion in the HCP group was CP that began prior to their 12th birthday and lasted for at least 3 years, with a frequency of about 12 episodes or more per year. Additionally, an object such as belt, strap, hairbrush, or paddle was used for punishment more or less annually.

[kcr]

77. I agree

They're terrible about it. I can imagine it would be especially frustrating for scientists.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

49. It appears that what specifically is wrong?

Your fist link goes to a list of articles, so it's not clear what point you're making.

[RufusTFirefly]

53. The research cited by CNN mistates the AAP's position on spanking

kcr was commenting on an excerpt from the original research that I posted. For whatever reason, the researchers mischaracterized the AAP's position. Troubling to find such a gross error in their study.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

55. OK, yeah. I just posted their actual position. But I don't see where that incorrect bit came from.

[RufusTFirefly]

57. Psst! Check post 56! n/t

Last edited Thu Jul 24, 2014, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

[kcr]

76. The AAP doesn't endorse spanking

There was a quote from the article that said they did, and I didn't think that was right so I checked. Those are all links from the AAP website that shows they advise against it.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

78. OK, but the post you replied to noted a few issues, and you didn't state what it was you were saying

was wrong. I did find out and post, meanwhile, what they say about it now. It may be, however, that in 2009, when the research was published, their position was different.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

42. The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposes striking a child for any reason.

The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposes striking a child for any reason. If a spanking is spontaneous, parents should later explain calmly why they did it, the specific behavior that provoked it, and how angry they felt. They also might apologize to their child for their loss of control. This usually helps the youngster to understand and accept the spanking, and it models for the child how to remediate a wrong.

http://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/family-dynamics/communication-discipline/Pages/Where-We-Stand-Spanking.aspx

[RufusTFirefly]

48. Thank you. See my comments above

The research that the CNN article cites obviously got it totally wrong on the AAP guidelines.

CNN got it wrong by claiming that the research found a correlation between spanking and decreased gray matter in the prefrontal cortex.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

52. I'm confused about your comments above. I don't know where you got

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) considers spanking with an open hand for the purpose of behavior modification to be an acceptable form of punishment."

My point is that all too often carefully done neuroscientific research is cherry-picked, dumbed down, and distorted by the popular media.

I can't argue with that, but then so isn't that the job of the popular media, to cherry pick and dumb down info? The American people seem to like, even demand, that.

In other news, how are things in Freedonia?

[RufusTFirefly]

56. The quote about the AAP's policy on spanking came from the original research.

Last edited Thu Jul 24, 2014, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Reduced Prefrontal Cortical Gray Matter Volume in Young Adults Exposed to Harsh Corporal Punishment

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

59. Run out and find me a four-year-old child, I can't make head or tail of it.

Actually, maybe that was the APA's position in 2009 when the cited article was published.

[RufusTFirefly]

61. The same thought occurred to me, but I've been unable to verify it n/t

Last edited Thu Jul 24, 2014, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)

[HuckleB]

64. This post explains a lot.

[HuckleB]

63. Exactly. The subthread here seems just bizarre.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

66. I was confused, but I think I see now. That bit was from the research cited.

As for the Marx Bros stuff in the sub thread, I was just thinking maybe that is out of place here. Sorry---I started it. Didn't mean to derail or disrespect.

[RufusTFirefly]

72. I didn't mean to trivialize the discussion.

I'm serious about cognitive science and about the Marx Brothers as well.
(I'll resist the temptation to post a picture of Professor Wagstaff peering through a microscope.)

Hello, I must be going.

[HuckleB]

95. I appreciate your feedback and thoughts.

You're very constructive!

[HuckleB]

65. The problem may be related to old information.

Also, the organization is attempting to work within the real world, where bad behavior may be less of an issue than worse behavior.

[RufusTFirefly]

68. Indeed. That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

Just haven't been able to confirm it.

[Pisces]

27. Imagine the poor children of Gaza and how much PTSD is affecting their gray matter.

[JDPriestly]

43. Same for the children of Israel.

Children on both sides are raised to fear and hate. The parents are to blame.

[Pisces]

54. No children in Israel have had their homes bombed or their families killed. THey are lining up lawn

chairs to watch the bombing. You are right that both sides are growing up with hate and fear.

[JDPriestly]

28. That explains why my children think they are smarter than I am.

Seriously. This is so important. Don't spank your children.

Just don't do it. You don't need to. Go to Amazon and look for books on how to talk to children so that they will listen to you and how to raise children nonviolently.

This could save you and your children a lot of problems.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

40. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Very well stated.

[HuckleB]

51. I can't recommend "The Explosive Child" enough...

Most of us won't have kids like the author works with, but the techniques he recommends are perfect for all parents, IMO.

[laundry_queen]

79. I have never heard of that book - do you mind me asking who is the author?

I've read a ton of parenting books, probably at least a couple dozen, but that was about 10-15 years ago. Then I decided on my parenting style and it's worked well for the most part (I have never spanked). During the upheaval of my life during my divorce, one of my children had a really rough time (she was 7) and started having explosive, violent tantrums (only with me, by the way, she was an angel for everyone else.) I got her in with a really great child psychologist who specialized in play therapy. For the most part, this child is now ok (she's 11) but she is incredibly sensitive and very quick to anger...I think I might like to try this book and see if it has any new insights. My daughter's been out of therapy for 2.5 years now, and is a great kid, never in trouble, honor student etc, but she still backslides now and again. I could use help for those times she regresses.

Thanks in advance.

[HuckleB]

88. Ross Greene.

It might be worth looking into, though it might be aimed at kids a bit younger than your daughter.

Take care.

[Lancero]

30. I find it intresting how similar...

The defense for corperal punishment is to how some try defending domestic abuse.

How to people defend corperal punishment? "Have to teach the kid a lesson"

Swap out kid for her, or a more derogatory term, and you've got the domestic abusers defense for their actions.

[Louisiana1976]

33. Exactly. In fact one could go so far as to say that people who physically abuse their spouses

probably received corporal punishment as children.

[rickyhall]

37. Once a month?

I remember several times a week. After 12 it was fists. So I might have been a genius, too.

[HuckleB]

44. Ouch.

I hope you're ok, now. Peace. Take care.

[hvn_nbr_2]

46. Parents with less grey matter...?

Do these studies rule out the following possibility/plausibility?
Parents with less grey matter are more likely to spank harshly. The same parents with less grey matter pass on, through heredity, less grey matter to their children. The children get less grey matter by inheritance from their parents, who are too dumb not to spank harshly.
?????

[HuckleB]

47. That should be part of any follow-up study, indeed.

[LWolf]

70. I don't know about "these studies,"

but...

IF spanking results in less grey matter, and IF, as is probable in many cases, the spankers were spankees, you'd expect them to have less grey matter, wouldn't you?

Spanking seems to be a family tradition that is passed on until a generation finally evolves. I wonder if there are any studies that show how many non-spanked grow up to be spankers.

[HuckleB]

94. Now that's a study for a good PhD candidate to get on, ASAP!

Good thought.

[laundry_queen]

81. Interesting

I've heard similar studies about poverty, violence and so on basically rewiring the child's entire brain so that they are put at a huge disadvantage in today's society.

I was spanked. Not very often because the first time I was spanked it was so traumatic (I was 18 months and remember every detail) that I did everything and anything to avoid getting hit. My dad looked for every excuse TO hit. It was his only 'tool' in his child rearing toolbox.

I have a fairly high IQ. I was bottlefed, spanked, ignored, plunked in front of a tv...everything my parents did was geared towards having a child who should be seen and not heard, and not having a child who would develop into their own person. I wonder what I might have been with a little encouragement and attention.

Interestingly, my mom was NOT spanked. At all. yet she spanked us. My dad had a very abusive upbringing and he thought he was being lenient with us. Compared to his mother, maybe (his dad was not abusive at all, just his mom) but compared to every other kid I knew? We had it the worst.

I decided before I had kids I would not spank them. My now-ex thought I was delusional and was very pro-spanking. I told him we were going to try it my way first and that if he ever found that there should be a reason to spank our kids, then we would revisit the issue. We never had to have that conversation, he's a total convert now (he even stayed converted after our divorce - which was a concern of mine - and states our kids are better behaved than anyone else's kids he knows). I think people who spank are simply too lazy to want to learn another way. And so many people are far more interested in stopping the behavior in the moment to benefit themselves instead of the long term emotional growth that would benefit their children.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

92. Wow. My Dad smacked us around in his blind rages. Whenever I heard his car pull up to the

house in the evening I got sick to my stomach and would hide in my room hoping to stay out of his path. I didn't respect him, I feared and resented him.

[DiverDave]

83. My boys stood in the corner

until they got cell phones. Then held them hostage with shutting off their phone.
Threaten to turn off a cell to a teen these days, they straighten up right quick. End of the world, ya know.
Haven't had to pull that one out too often. They are pretty good kids.

[CBGLuthier]

84. My parents never spanked me. They used a switch.

The good old fashioned find the thinnest branch of a tree and take it to bare flesh kind. Me being a difficult child this would happen damn near daily, it seemed, until I was 12 or so.

Spanking, was what the teachers did to me. Using a paddle of course and not on bare flesh. One day, in the tenth grade, they offered to spank me and I declined and walked the hell out of HS never to return.

That was 1977 for those who might think this happened in the dark ages.

To this day my parents, still alive, do not really know just how much I hate them. How can you tell someone you still instinctively fear that you hate them?

As to the gray matter study, I would say how smart I supposedly am but putting my IQ on the internet is not really my thing. Not a strong believer in the number any way. But I have often said I would trade about ten points for a little more stability.

Yes, someone is in a sharing mood this early morning.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

93. Good grief, did it not occur to them that it wasn't working if it had to be

repeated nearly daily? Child assault supporters would say you should have learned not to piss them off. I think that's ridiculous. When the adults, who are supposed to be the reasonable, responsible ones teaching you to be the same way, can't figure out how to raise a child without physical violence, you can't blame the child.

I have, in adulthood, told my Dad how I felt about him knocking his kids around, and he did apologize. I guess I love him, and I do feel bad for him because he is the product of his own crappy childhood, but I still resent him for being a bully.

[CBGLuthier]

96. They were young and unsophisticated

My mother had just turned 17 when I was born and came from the hills of Kentucky. My father was 21 with a similar background. It wasn't so much the horror show of the type where you get smacked every time you turn around and beaten by drunks or any of that just overly aggressive discipline.

A lot of it may have been because I am on the autism spectrum as the current thinking goes making it hard for me to read social cues like the things that piss people off. But I have made a lot of progress in that area. I think.

Fortunately I did not pass the violence on to my kids so the cycle was broken, as they say. I am sure that it and other unpleasant things I will not share (nothing illegal) that have probably left me with a lack of confidence in myself and helped to cause a 3 decade abuse of cannabis that finally got out of control the last few years but is now barely behind me.

But I make my own way now and I am responsible for my life. I would not describe my upbringing as a "first world problem" but compared to some kids and other horrors around the world it wasn't that bad.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

97. That is one small consolation in many things...

it could have been worse.

Congrats on overcoming all you have. Best wishes for continued success.

[Jamastiene]

85. If you smack an adult, it is assault, right?

But, smacking a kid around is "discipline." I never did understand why it was "ok" to smack kids around but it was not ok to smack another adult around.