Fri Jul 25, 2014, 09:45 AM

I got the meaning of "Schindler's List" completely wrong!

In the course of my life, I have read dozens of books and watched dozens of movies concerning the Holocaust. This kind of literature and storytelling is important, because it lets us put ourselves in our imaginations in situations where we haven't been before. It lets us put ourselves in others' places, at least to a first approximation, and think about how we would feel in that place. And so, after reading and watching books and movies like Schindler's List, The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, The Pianist, The Diary of Anne Frank, Jakob the Liar, Maus, Night, even The Boys from Brazil, and taking a college course on the Holocaust . . . I thought I had gotten the message pretty clearly, and it was this:

It is wrong to treat people, especially a group of people, in this way.

And that applied to Jewish people, homosexuals, the Romani people, religious minorities, people with physical and mental handicaps - to all people.

I thought.

To now see the state of Israel, born out of the suffering of the Holocaust, demonize, round up, ghettoize, and systematically kill a weaker group of people is so galactically ironic that it blows up everything I thought I knew. It turns out that the message of those movies and books wasn't "it is wrong to treat people this way". It was instead a case of special pleading -

It was wrong for other people to treat US this way.

I'm blown away by how wrong I was.

/sarcasm, I hope, sadly.

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229 replies	Author	Time	Post
I got the meaning of "Schindler's List" completely wrong! (Original post)	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	OP
A brilliant post Professor Plum	malaise	Jul 2014	#1
Indeed! nt	kelliekat44	Jul 2014	#77
Post removed	Post removed	Jul 2014	#95
I'd say "nuke them all" is most likely a wrong opinion. nt	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#96
That is funny because I live in an area with lots of Jews and most of my friends are Jewish	hollysmom	Jul 2014	#129
First you listen	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#134
To be honest I don't go in for conspiracies like that.	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#209
What conspiracies?	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#212
Post 134 seemed like it was inferring that the same group	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#215
I don't think so.	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#216
I've had my say, and will not say any more on it.	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#217
OK. Thanks for the advice.	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#218
The lesson is that the sanctioned extermination of millions of people is wrong	hack89	Jul 2014	#2
So by your measure it is all about the numbers of people?	Swede Atlanta	Jul 2014	#6
Does this apply to your reasoning?	packman	Jul 2014	#14
packman, I'm not sure I get your meaning. Are you saying there are not even 10 Palestinians	DesertDiamond	Jul 2014	#19
I think the poster meant 'justification' instead of 'inspiration.'	Voice for Peace	Jul 2014	#23
That passage always bothered me	packman	Jul 2014	#28
Let's face it, Yahweh is an evil, murderous sociopath.	Arugula Latte	Jul 2014	#74
Bingo. I've been readaing a lot recently about the Chrisitan Gnostics	snagglepuss	Jul 2014	#111
In cahoots with "Satan" in infinite cruelty. n/t	devils chaplain	Jul 2014	#121
No, only the people who penned the story. nt	kelliekat44	Jul 2014	#184
It makes perfect sense	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#114
Was 911 genocide? nt	hack89	Jul 2014	#50
Equivocation	BlindTiresias	Jul 2014	#86
Genocide does not require ghettos	hack89	Jul 2014	#88
genocide is a systemic effort	BlindTiresias	Jul 2014	#101
So ten deaths can be genocide	hack89	Jul 2014	#110
Genocide is a systemic effort	BlindTiresias	Jul 2014	#115
But there has to be massive loss of life	hack89	Jul 2014	#116
There needs to be an effort	BlindTiresias	Jul 2014	#120
What do you think the number is?	Callmecrazy	Jul 2014	#161
The Israelis	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#128
"They just want their land " Without taking sides I want to point out that no one has an eternal	rhett o rick	Jul 2014	#189
It isn't the Palestinians	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#197
People will fight for land! Always have and always will. But no one has an eternal right to	rhett o rick	Jul 2014	#201
When you posit the argument	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#204
If it is targeted a a certain group of people. It always starts with the idea	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#205
So 911 was genocide	hack89	Jul 2014	#206
Nope. It was a terrorist attack.	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#207
So the Palestinian population has exploded since 48	hack89	Jul 2014	#208
Nope. That's a false and especially weak conclusion.	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#210
So the Palestinian population has not exploded? nt	hack89	Jul 2014	#211
I'm not sure why you are making them out to sound like rabbits	R. Daneel Olivaw	Jul 2014	#213
Population explosions and genocide are mutually exclusive	hack89	Jul 2014	#214
No ghettoes in Rwanda??? ...	1StrongBlackMan	Jul 2014	#146
Feel free to educate me	hack89	Jul 2014	#158
Here is a brief history of Rwanda ...	1StrongBlackMan	Jul 2014	#196
Thanks. I retract my previous comments. nt	hack89	Jul 2014	#203
Why do you bring this up in thread after thread?	BobbyBoring	Jul 2014	#164
They have to be white, primarily	Scootaloo	Jul 2014	#159
well, you missed the point	heaven05	Jul 2014	#43
No I understand the point	hack89	Jul 2014	#48
That is anti-Semitic. Jews are not doing anything to the people of	The Second Stone	Jul 2014	#65
Maybe part of the solution	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#113
They're a Jewish state when it suits them.	randome	Jul 2014	#190
and not all Iraelis. Many Israelis oppose it.	Vattel	Jul 2014	#193
But if they're not part of the solution, aren't they part of the problem?	randome	Jul 2014	#194
You tell me.	Vattel	Jul 2014	#195
It's not enough to stand idly by while a military junta kills in the name of your religion.	randome	Jul 2014	#199
I guess I agree that where effective opposition is possible, it should happen.	Vattel	Jul 2014	#200
Agree about Afghanistan. But Israel isn't threatening to kill their own people.	randome	Jul 2014	#202
I agree.	Vattel	Jul 2014	#221
I'm not sure ultra-orthodox	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#130
This message was self-deleted by its author	ann---	Jul 2014	#78
So why did Israel forcibly remove all Israeli settlers from Gaza nine years ago	hack89	Jul 2014	#79
They put them in settlements in Arab Jerusalem -	lark	Jul 2014	#109
But they withdrew completely from Gaza	hack89	Jul 2014	#112
Makes it easier to totally destroy the place. nt	kelliekat44	Jul 2014	#185
Those diabolical jews	hack89	Jul 2014	#188
Cost benefit analysis.	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#117
It was a trust building exercise	hack89	Jul 2014	#119
They gave up 140 sq. miles	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#123
Maybe not.	Cheviteau	Jul 2014	#102
Whilst Gaza is not a death camp it is a concentration camp	intaglio	Jul 2014	#139
I disagree with your interpretation of "the lesson". IMO the lesson has nothing to do	rhett o rick	Jul 2014	#191
Bravo Professor.	SummerSnow	Jul 2014	#3
Cheap theatrics posing as argument. nt	COLGATE4	Jul 2014	#4
Contentless naysaying posing as a response. nt	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#20
B for effort. D for content. nt	COLGATE4	Jul 2014	#90
1 for the money. 2 for the show. nt	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#92
LOL! eom.	1StrongBlackMan	Jul 2014	#149
Not to detract from the seriousness of the topic, but	Dark n Stormy Knight	Jul 2014	#168
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service	MohRokTah	Jul 2014	#106
It wasn't me!	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#124
It was a silly alert. eom	MohRokTah	Jul 2014	#125
Care to identify the "theatrics" or are you just bloviating n/t	intaglio	Jul 2014	#141
wtf	JI7	Jul 2014	#5
Is it wrong to defend your citizens against an enemy shooting rockets at them?	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#7
Is it wrong to blow up hospitals and schools in your defense?	B Calm	Jul 2014	#9
Since you answered a question with a question...	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#10
The answers to both your questions is yes and no	LittleBlue	Jul 2014	#13
Yes, that's wrong also. Hamas is bad. The Israeli government is bad.	DanTex	Jul 2014	#15
that most normal people	PatrynXX	Jul 2014	#39
Wait. There were weapons in the UN school housing refugees of war?	morningfog	Jul 2014	#70
I was referring to this.	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#76
If you provoke	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#137
yes eom	noiretextatique	Jul 2014	#11
It's wrong to defend your citizens?	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#24
'Defend your citizens'? This is how you defend them: give up some of the fucking land!	randome	Jul 2014	#29
Give up land to a group dedicated to eradicating you?	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#31
Give up the land they stole. "Anything necessary", the generals say. They don't mean that at all.	randome	Jul 2014	#34
Agreed - the generals didn't mean "give in to our enemies and run like hell."	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#38
Right. It's all about appearances, isn't it? One mustn't look cowardly.	randome	Jul 2014	#40
Hamas' goal is to exterminate Israel.	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#41
This message was self-deleted by its author	sinkingfeeling	Jul 2014	#55
Isn't Israel's goal the same thing applied to the Palestinians?	randome	Jul 2014	#59
I hate war...	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#63
these rockets you speak of...	druidity33	Jul 2014	#122
I would want them arrested, and tried in a court of law.	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#131
The goal of al-Queda	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#147
And this is my whole problem with the situation.	BobbyBoring	Jul 2014	#170
This is a fascinating post	oberliner	Jul 2014	#183
give up the land they stole. Does that apply to the US?	onenote	Jul 2014	#99
Well, yes.	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#133
Hamas does not threaten	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#152
When you took that land from them in the first place?	treestar	Jul 2014	#103
I think the United Nations had something to do with the creation of Israel.	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#105
And since its inception...	awoke_in_2003	Jul 2014	#126
Every time Israel has taken over more land...	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#182
Right. So Israel benefits each time one of these "attacks" occurs.	GoneFishin	Jul 2014	#186
Curious use of quotations around the word attacks.	onenote	Jul 2014	#219
Quotes, because they happen whether they really occur, as they genuinely do at times,	GoneFishin	Jul 2014	#223
Those are the equivalent of the tactics that were used to drive the Indians off their territory	onenote	Jul 2014	#227
I don't think that technology existed. And yes, how indeed?	GoneFishin	Jul 2014	#229
Yes, it did.	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#155
Hamas may theoretically wish to eradicate Israel, but if you look at the actual	nomorenomore08	Jul 2014	#132
What the Nazis did to Jews	sulphurdunn	Jul 2014	#140
Yet folks are perfectly content to use what happened 60 years ago	onenote	Jul 2014	#220
It is you Israel that is eradicating Palestinians	malaise	Jul 2014	#224
It's not wrong to defend your citizens.	progressoid	Jul 2014	#30
This. NT.	riqster	Jul 2014	#53
That wasn't what the poster said, though.	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#85
Were we defending our citizens when we used phosphorous bombs to burn Iraqi	rhett o rick	Jul 2014	#192
well Hamas is firing back at Israel	PatrynXX	Jul 2014	#35
Not sure who you are sticking up for here, but I say	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#54
Wouldn't that be "20 GO TO 10" in fortran?	whopis01	Jul 2014	#107
You are correct! LOL	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#162
Up to a point	treestar	Jul 2014	#98
Well, you know, Hamas is known for being so reasonable.	NaturalHigh	Jul 2014	#100
It's still overkill	treestar	Jul 2014	#104
+1000	nomorenomore08	Jul 2014	#135
Is it wrong to place people in a concentration camp on the basis of their ethnicity and religion	intaglio	Jul 2014	#143
You win the internet.	MinneapolisMatt	Jul 2014	#8
well, the stuff behind "a right to exist" and "never again" only belong to Zionists	stupidicus	Jul 2014	#12
"who have to earn the right"	handmade34	Jul 2014	#16
ain't it though?	stupidicus	Jul 2014	#18
Jewish holocaust survivor: “Never again” does not justify Gaza slaughter.	Divernan	Jul 2014	#17
Recommend....well worth the read..	KoKo	Jul 2014	#37
Excellent!	Octoberfurst	Jul 2014	#58
^^This^^	blackspade	Jul 2014	#61
Thanks very much for posting	TubbersUK	Jul 2014	#71
You're welcome, AND Welcome to DU	Divernan	Jul 2014	#73
excellent post and welcome!	druidity33	Jul 2014	#118
WOW, you just educated me too, ProfessorPlum!	secondwind	Jul 2014	#21
If you haven't already seen it, add Spielberg's "Munich" to your list.	maddiemom	Jul 2014	#22
that movie was frightening and would certainly make any would be "agents"	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#49
I got the meaning of both 'Jaws' and '1941' wrong also.	LanternWaste	Jul 2014	#25
LOL	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#51
Actually, the message of Schindler's List	JayhawkSD	Jul 2014	#26
Of any society alive today Israelis	obxhead	Jul 2014	#27
I think you're still drawing the wrong message	frazzled	Jul 2014	#32
I see - the victimization of people is wrong if the state is getting rid of "undesirables"	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#46
No ... just that there are different types and degrees of victimization and ...	frazzled	Jul 2014	#69
ok . . . well, I don't think I'm really pulling the Nazi card	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#75
Israeli policy has been to systematically starve Palestinians	Divernan	Jul 2014	#60
It looks like an extermination project to me. A slow one.	bloom	Jul 2014	#171
Right-wingers are the same everywhere. As long as the right-wing Likud Party is in the majority	w4rma	Jul 2014	#33
Rounding up and systematically killing? A good argument needs no lies.	WinkyDink	Jul 2014	#36
well, they've already been rounded up, inside Gaza	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#42
I cut my teeth on	libodem	Jul 2014	#44
All analogies break down because they are analogies.	aikoaiko	Jul 2014	#45
well, they are occupied.	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#47
No, you got it right. Somebody else is getting it wrong.	Octafish	Jul 2014	#52
thank you.	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#82
Well duh, killing white people is wrong. Killing brown people and taking their land	Exultant Democracy	Jul 2014	#56
Actually, many Palestinians look pretty white	Divernan	Jul 2014	#64
What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction	Tierra_y_Libertad	Jul 2014	#57
that Gandhi was a bright fellow	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#62
I am sure that you know that there are many Jews within Israel and in the US who have	CTyankee	Jul 2014	#68
I am aware of that - or at least I am aware of the possibility that there must be	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#72
The sad fact also remains that at least IMO Hamas doesn't care too much for the Palestinians	CTyankee	Jul 2014	#81
Yes. +1000	GliderGuider	Jul 2014	#66
I agree with you.	closeupready	Jul 2014	#67
You have expressed the feelings of many people	emsimon33	Jul 2014	#80
yes	lululu	Jul 2014	#83
no	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#84
I say you don't make up for your suffering by trying to pass it on.....	Spitfire of ATJ	Jul 2014	#87
wow. that's a poignant analogy.	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#91
Kicked and recommended.	Uncle Joe	Jul 2014	#89
This message was self-deleted by its author	1000words	Jul 2014	#93
ProfessorPlum I would nominate this for best of DU if I could.	Denis 11	Jul 2014	#94
thank you	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#97
Nope, you got it 100% right.	lark	Jul 2014	#108
I find this thread disturbing	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#127
Yeah, the OP kind of bothered me too. Thanks for articulating why. n/t	nomorenomore08	Jul 2014	#136
I think you see it in this thread	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#138
Seriously?	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#145
You kind of chopped off half my sentence there.	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#148
The Nazi concentration camps	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#174
Oh, and btw,	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#151
Okay, let's review	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#175
Let's try and clarify, then.	Erich Bloodaxe BSN	Jul 2014	#181
170,000 people have died in Syria in the past 18 months, and	frazzled	Jul 2014	#172
Then you must think the entire history of Israel has vanished into some non-existent ether.	delrem	Jul 2014	#150
I don't even know	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#176
Then you ought to study history. nt	delrem	Jul 2014	#178
I love when I get that comment	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#180
Ah, but we have had many articles	whosinpower1	Jul 2014	#160
I am well of aware of such charges about Obama	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#167
i agree, remember the outrage when comparisons are made with Putin and the past	JI7	Jul 2014	#163
People seem to want to reduce complex situations	BainsBane	Jul 2014	#166
+1	octoberlib	Jul 2014	#169
Thank you. You summed up my feelings perfectly. It bothers me to come here and see this as	jillan	Jul 2014	#177
It is, but we have come to expect it.	Behind the Aegis	Jul 2014	#179
Not sure that's what Spielberg himself meant, though.	Ken Burch	Jul 2014	#142
It's the hipocrisy	Maximum Bob	Jul 2014	#144
Thank you for this OP.	delrem	Jul 2014	#153
thank you	ProfessorPlum	Jul 2014	#165
The abused become the abusers.	ozone_man	Jul 2014	#154
We saw many of our guys willing to risk their lives fighting fascism overseas wholeheartedly	brewens	Jul 2014	#156
thx bibi	enid602	Jul 2014	#157
I always thought it was weird that people who were brutalized during	Cleita	Jul 2014	#173
Thanks for the great OP. K&R	GoneFishin	Jul 2014	#187
If you are saying the message is that it's wrong for people to be treated as the Nazi's did,	rhett o rick	Jul 2014	#198
this is an excellent OP, I'm disgusted how it became hijacked..	2banon	Jul 2014	#222
K	Roy Serohz	Jul 2014	#225
Using the holocaust as a comparison may indeed be inappropriate, but the OP does have a	randys1	Jul 2014	#226
Good post Professor.	BillZBubb	Jul 2014	#228

Response to ProfessorPlum (Original post)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 09:50 AM

malaise (254,366 posts)

1. A brilliant post Professor Plum

Get thee to the greatest page

I got the meaning of "Schindler's List" completely wrong!

1. A brilliant post Professor Plum

77. Indeed! nt

96. I'd say "nuke them all" is most likely a wrong opinion. nt

129. That is funny because I live in an area with lots of Jews and most of my friends are Jewish

134. First you listen

209. To be honest I don't go in for conspiracies like that.

212. What conspiracies?

215. Post 134 seemed like it was inferring that the same group

216. I don't think so.

217. I've had my say, and will not say any more on it.

218. OK. Thanks for the advice.

2. The lesson is that the sanctioned extermination of millions of people is wrong

6. So by your measure it is all about the numbers of people?

14. Does this apply to your reasoning?

19. packman, I'm not sure I get your meaning. Are you saying there are not even 10 Palestinians

23. I think the poster meant 'justification' instead of 'inspiration.'

28. That passage always bothered me

74. Let's face it, Yahweh is an evil, murderous sociopath.

111. Bingo. I've been readaing a lot recently about the Chrisitan Gnostics

121. In cahoots with "Satan" in infinite cruelty. n/t

184. No, only the people who penned the story. nt

114. It makes perfect sense

50. Was 911 genocide? nt

86. Equivocation

88. Genocide does not require ghettos

101. genocide is a systemic effort

110. So ten deaths can be genocide

115. Genocide is a systemic effort

116. But there has to be massive loss of life

120. There needs to be an effort

161. What do you think the number is?

128. The Israelis

189. "They just want their land " Without taking sides I want to point out that no one has an eternal

197. It isn't the Palestinians

201. People will fight for land! Always have and always will. But no one has an eternal right to

204. When you posit the argument

205. If it is targeted a a certain group of people. It always starts with the idea

206. So 911 was genocide

207. Nope. It was a terrorist attack.

208. So the Palestinian population has exploded since 48

210. Nope. That's a false and especially weak conclusion.

211. So the Palestinian population has not exploded? nt

213. I'm not sure why you are making them out to sound like rabbits

214. Population explosions and genocide are mutually exclusive

146. No ghettoes in Rwanda??? ...

158. Feel free to educate me

196. Here is a brief history of Rwanda ...

203. Thanks. I retract my previous comments. nt

164. Why do you bring this up in thread after thread?

159. They have to be white, primarily

43. well, you missed the point

48. No I understand the point

65. That is anti-Semitic. Jews are not doing anything to the people of

113. Maybe part of the solution

190. They're a Jewish state when it suits them.

193. and not all Iraelis. Many Israelis oppose it.

194. But if they're not part of the solution, aren't they part of the problem?

195. You tell me.

199. It's not enough to stand idly by while a military junta kills in the name of your religion.

200. I guess I agree that where effective opposition is possible, it should happen.

202. Agree about Afghanistan. But Israel isn't threatening to kill their own people.

221. I agree.

130. I'm not sure ultra-orthodox

79. So why did Israel forcibly remove all Israeli settlers from Gaza nine years ago

109. They put them in settlements in Arab Jerusalem -

112. But they withdrew completely from Gaza

185. Makes it easier to totally destroy the place. nt

188. Those diabolical jews

117. Cost benefit analysis.

119. It was a trust building exercise

123. They gave up 140 sq. miles

102. Maybe not.

139. Whilst Gaza is not a death camp it is a concentration camp

191. I disagree with your interpretation of "the lesson". IMO the lesson has nothing to do

3. Bravo Professor.

4. Cheap theatrics posing as argument. nt

20. Contentless naysaying posing as a response. nt

90. B for effort. D for content. nt

92. 1 for the money. 2 for the show. nt