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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHoly Crap!!! Are you shittin me.... the 3 dead Israeli kids
and now its unclear who really was responsible... Im just saying and not going nuts just yet...but if they were lying about this...
The citizens of Israel who have been subjugated to Netanyahus right wing war machine should put that coward on trial..
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/25/1316778/-Israel-admits-HAMAS-didn-t-kidnap-the-3-Israeli-teens-afterall
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Hamas had not fired any rockets in 19 months, and only then did they when Israel began its military attacks on Gaza.
The RW of Israel is in control and they are getting their war on. No one here should be in support of that, rather they should all be backing Kerry in his efforts to end the slaughter.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But the United States is not an honest broker in this situation. we fund and arm the Israelis against the people they subjugate, how on earth can we pretend to negotiate in fairness between Israel and those same people?
JI7
(89,172 posts)which have been revealed that he isn't just giving the same bs. and i think the palestinians trust him.
most of the negative comments about Kerry come from the right wing in Israel.
delrem
(9,688 posts)but he is what he is.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)End the slaughter. Make peace.
We can't begin to make head way on the rest until peace is established.
Since the US is a main provider of the war machine, it is with ethics that the US is working to have the war machine put back on the shelf.
We have seen in recent days the utter madness of support for the war machine right here on DU. We have dirt on our hands right here on DU. If we can't even keep DU clean, how the hell can we proceed to make our politicians come clean?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Unless we cease the funding, unless we pull our eternal support from israel in the UN, our actions for "peace" are a complete and total farce. Israel knows we're not going to do anything to hold its feet to the fire. Palestinians know we can't be trusted on this. Neither party has any incentive whatsoever to give us serious consideration, then.
The ethical thing to do, is cease our investment in the Israeli war machine. Not just our annual aid package and the random gifts of weapons we hand out... but also divestment from Israeli businesses and individuals beyond the legal boundaries recognized by the United States upon Israel's declaration of independence. That done, we need to sit back, and have our ambassador beat the living shit out of the "abstain" button at the united nations every time this stuff comes to a vote.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)First off we need to clean up DU. These war supporters need to be ..... gone.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Or would have they had their posting privileges revoked? This is bigotry of the most evil kind from a small group of posters.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)At least it did not last for long. As we see it is now less and less here. They warmongers are losing the debate. The facts are coming out.
malaise
(267,784 posts)Truth will out and they will scatter.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)What they write is often disgusting, but rarely crosses the line on 'hideability' grounds. The few juries I've been on have largely been wishful thinking by people who were disgusted with what was being said, but couldn't really make a strong case for the comment actually breaking any site rules.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Iraq, Syria, Libya etc and OUR claims that we have the right to 'defend ourselves from terror'. One of the costs of our own despicable drone wars and illegal invasions of other people's countries, we have lost the moral authority to admonish those who badly need it.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Bad actors around the world aren't just ignoring our hypocritical ghost of 'moral authority'. They're learning from us how to neatly package their own offenses against humanity into 'acceptable' media presentations.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)oh wait ...
Outrage belongs to everyone who deserves it. I hope no one forgets it is a failing of liars everywhere.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)BainsBane
(53,001 posts)Where did you read that Hamas had not fired rockets in 19 months?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)A report issued by the authoritative the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), a private Israeli think tank that has close ties with the countrys military leadership, unintentionally debunked the Senate resolution more than a week before its unanimous consent vote in the Senate. The weekly ITIC reports regarding rocket fire are frequently quoted on the Israeli governments own web site.
The ITIC July 8, 2014 report, News of Terrorism and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (July 2 8, 2014), states: For the first time since Operation Pillar of Defense , Hamas participated in and claimed responsibility for rocket fire .
The July 8 ITIC report also divulged why Hamas launched its first rocket fire at Israel in more than 19 months on July 7: On that night Israeli forces had bombed and killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza. The ITIC report includes a picture of the six Hamas members. Thus, a report from an authoritative Israeli source described the provocation for the resumption of rocket fire: Hamas rocket fire began only after Israeli forces had engaged in nearly a month of military operations in violation of the ceasefire agreement and had killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza.
*******************
DU link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025287123
BainsBane
(53,001 posts)This is from one of the links:
For Operation Pillar of Defense the leap in rocket fire following the initial Israeli assault was even greater. Data in the graph shows that during 2012 from January 1 until November 14, when Operation Pillar of Defense began, Israel experienced 787 rocket hitsan average of 2.5 rocket hits per day. During the 8 days of Operation Pillar of Defense, 845 rockets hit Israel, and the average was 105 rocket hits per day. Thus Israel was hit by 42 times as many rockets per day during Operation Pillar of Defense as were hitting Israel before its bombing of Gaza began. More than twice as many per day as even during Operation Cast Lead.
It says rockets have intensified during the siege of Gaza, but that 787 were fired in the months preceding that.
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/accountable-aggression-crimes.html
Edit: I'm still tying to figure this out. I do see the line in the Israeli defense report that says that in early July, Hamas began to "participate in and claim responsibility for" rocket fire for the first time since Operation Pillar. I'd like to see some reports from the intervening months to see what they say.
Edit again: The article contradicts itself. They cite as proof a Jerusalem Post article showing that Hamas is trying to control rocket fire. That is from May 2013, during the 19 month period you say no rockets were launched. The paper says otherwise:
Today Hamas and other actors in Gaza are acting to stop the rocket fire. They dont always succeed, and where they fail, the IDF acts, the general said. . . .
A Salafi official told the newspaper that his group refused to comply with the cease-fire agreement and would continue firing rockets at Israel. The Hamas government arrested Salafi jihadists who claimed responsibility for rocket fire at Israel, the paper reported.
The relative quiet that followed the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas after Operation Pillar of Defense in November was broken recently by sporadic rocket fire.
In recent weeks, rockets launched from the Gaza Strip struck the Eshkol region, and two Grad rockets fired by Gaza terrorists from the Sinai Peninsula exploded in Eilat. Last weekend, a rocket was fired at the Sdot Negev region, and on Thursday night the remains of a projectile were found in an open area of the Eshkol region.
The IAF struck a terrorist facility and an arms depot in the southern Gaza Strip overnight last Sunday in response to the rockets.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/IDF-source-Hamas-working-to-stop-rockets-from-Gaza-311977
The point is clear that rocket fire from Gaza (not all of which comes from or is controlled by Hamas) has escalated greatly since the onset of the current conflict and during Operation Pillar before it. However, the evidence does not support your contention that no rockets were fired until the recent Israeli incursion into Gaza.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)the rockets weren't being fired by Hamas, but rather by independent rogue militants that Hamas was trying to stop as they worked on the unity government, to the extent of even arresting those they caught firing rockets. And yet, Israel then specifically targeted and killed 6 Hamas members, at which point Hamas reinstituted firing rockets on its own.
Uncle Joe
(58,107 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025292409
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/24/why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrong/
A report issued by the authoritative the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC), a private Israeli think tank that has close ties with the countrys military leadership, unintentionally debunked the Senate resolution more than a week before its unanimous consent vote in the Senate. The weekly ITIC reports regarding rocket fire are frequently quoted on the Israeli governments own web site.
The ITIC July 8, 2014 report,News of Terrorism and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (July 2 8, 2014), states: For the first time sinceOperation Pillar of Defense [November 2012], Hamas participated in and claimed responsibility for rocket fire [on July 7, 2014].
Thus, Hamas rocket fire only re-started on July 7after a 19 month cease-fire. As we will see, this was nearly a month after Israeli forces launched massive military operations in the West Bank and Gaza starting on June 12. But those Israeli military operations were not the only provocation.
First, about the cease fire that was in place: Operation Pillar of Defense was an 8 day aerial assault on Gaza in November 2012 that ended with a ceasefire agreement brokered by Egypt. Graphs presented on the ITIC website show that the cease-fire was effective. In the weeks and months following that agreement, the ITIC consistently reported the absence of Hamas rocket fire. In addition, a May 2013 article in the Jerusalem Post, IDF source: Hamas working to stop Gaza rockets, reported that Hamas was policing other groups to prevent rocket fire.
There is more information on the counterpunch link.
hack89
(39,171 posts)They fired rockets constantly during that 19 month period.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It's not "bullshit" - the three kids were indeed kidnapped, and they were indeed murdered. That's no fiction.
However, Netanyahu's claims that it was hamas, was indeed bullshit - as many of us called, very quickly (He vowed to release proof "soon," several times... yeah, we all know how to parse that). What's worse, is that apparently Israeli intelligence knew that the three young men were dead very quickly - but the Netanyahu government kept up the pretense of a search and manhunt, targeting Hamas and other political figures in the west bank, brutalizing men, women, and children, and inciting israelis to new heights of rage and paranoia.
Incitement that led three psychopaths to kidnap, torture, and incinerate a palestinian kid.
These three young men were exploited and abused by the war machine in israel. Their deaths are not fiction, they're a horrid reality - but the story the Israeli government wove around them, that's lartgely false, yes.
Think of Pat Tillman or Jessica Lynch and how they were used as propaganda tokens. Except Bush never used Lynch's situation to call for Arab blood, the way Netanyahu did.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)but by that point Bush was already bathing in Arab blood....
So there's that...
delrem
(9,688 posts)It was a majority of the US population.
It was the entire US MSM.
Of course now it's different, since the Democratic Party under Obama is in power.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Forgive me.
delrem
(9,688 posts)I just appended my opinion on the same topic.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)BainsBane
(53,001 posts)around here in the past, and I don't recall your speaking up. Did I miss it? I recall being one of the very few people to say anything and people assumed I was Muslim.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)That would seem to be a bizarre viewpoint given the scope of the horror in progress.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)are you saying the kids were murdered but no one for sure knows who did it? If thats the case bullshit still applies..??
Please keep me updated.. I appreciate your feedback..
delrem
(9,688 posts)The sequence of events leaks like a sieve.
It is business as usual for the IDF.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)However as the "proof" cited against them seems to have been their connections to Hamas.... well...
the story seems to have vanished, hasn't it? I can't imagine being in the shoes of these boys' families - all four of them. Three, who have had their loved ones destroyed, been misled and lied to, all to see their sons' bodies flogged as drums for war, and one more family savagely bereaved by fire to the sound of those primitive drumbeats. All with no closure at all.
My soft advice? Don't post I/P topics while drinking. Save yourself some trouble - and hides.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)But my girlfriend had a birthday tonight.. That being said Im sobering up and getting more pissed by the minute!!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)from June 14 the names where named June 26 and the 2 were at large and still are supposedly also it was mentioned the wife of one of them had been detained for questioning and a note anbout the names the spelling of Arabic names can vary slightly and in Eglish language Israel and American publication the last name of the second one is spelled with a K but in Palestinian publications it is spelled with a Q
but in this from June 14 the 2 and the wife are listed as being arrested
According to Palestinian security sources and local news agencies, the Israeli army raided Hebron and arrested the two brothers Shadi and Alaa Zakaria Abu Zina, Ammar Abu Eisha and his wife Ikram Abu Aisha, Iyad Shabana al-Tamimi, Yasser Jamal, Dirar Abu Saw, and the brothers Marwan, Sharif, Bilal and Ayman Osman Qawasmeh. They were all arrested after the IOF broke into their homes and searched them, and they were taken to unknown locations.
The sources added that the Israeli army raided several neighborhoods in the towns of the Hebron province: Dura, Yatta, Beit Kahil, and Tarqumiya, and broke into dozens of homes and inspected and confiscated recordings of surveillance cameras, under the pretext of searching for 3 settlers that disappeared on Thursday night near an Israeli illegal settlement, north of Hebron.
http://english.pnn.ps/index.php/human-rights/7701-the-israeli-army-wages-a-campaign-of-mass-arrests-in-hebron
so now it could be asked has Israel had them all along or did it have them and let them go
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)All we knew is that they were hitchhiking, went missing (one of them sent a text, reporting he had been kidnapped) and their bodies were found in a field near Karmei Tzur.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)to emergency officials (like our 911). They were hitchhiking in the West Bank and were picked up by a couple of Palestinians (I think it was two Palestinians, I'm not sure if it's been 100% verified). That's why Israeli officials knew they were likely already dead: the shots are heard on the emergency tapes and there were voices heard indicating they were murdered.
Officials from Israel lied to the parents of the kids and to the Israeli public and claimed that they were kidnapped and there was a good chance they were still alive. There was a gag order preventing the press from reporting the truth.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I wonder why the gag order. Maybe Netanyahu was worried that the Israelis would avenge the deaths with more anger if they knew that the kids had been shot while calling for help.
jollyreaper2112
(1,941 posts)Next we are going to find out Saddam didn't actually have any WMD.
This is worse than the black kids lynched in the south for possibly looking at a white woman only due to the volume of people killed. On a case by case basis, goddamn are they equally vile.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)JI7
(89,172 posts)i know that's not what you meant. but a lot of people don't look more into it.
and this is a sensitive enough topic where it might be good to provide more info.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)And why did Netanyahu decide to go on another rampage in Gaza? As Nathan Thrall of the International Crisis Group points out, the real motive is neither vengeance nor a desire to protect Israel from Hamas' rocket fire, which has been virtually non-existent over the past two years and is largely ineffectual anyway. Netanyahu's real purpose was to undermine the recent agreement between Hamas and Fatah for a unity government. Given Netanyahu's personal commitment to keeping the West Bank and creating a "greater Israel," the last thing he wants is a unified Palestinian leadership that might press him to get serious about a two-state solution. Ergo, he sought to isolate and severely damage Hamas and drive a new wedge between the two Palestinian factions.
From: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025285089
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)that it will be the downfall of Netanyahu and his right wing cronies..
WillyT
(72,631 posts)busterbrown
(8,515 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)it may be the downfall of Likud... but don't expect any saner heads to rise in their place.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to step down immediately and an investigation would begin. If he really did lie about those poor boys and used them to start his latest assault on the Palestinian people, he should be sentenced to life in prison without parole, and anyone who colluded with him, should face the same fate.
But if Israel is anything like this country, where elected officials can lie us into a devastating war resulting in untold numbers of death, nothing will happen to him.
I wonder if Kerry had learned this right before talking to him using it as leverage to demand a truce. Because right up to today, they were pretty much ignoring the US Govt, especially Kerry and Obama calling for a cease fire. Airc, they said they would continue their 'operation' almost as if to make Kerry seem ineffectual.
Then suddenly we hear there is a cease fire.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)frightened and angry at the other side.
I'm glad Kerry is continuing to negotiate.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God.
I don't care who is right or wrong. Both sides need peace. They each have to be willing to give something up to come to a settlement.
Imagine being a child in either Israel or Palestine raised in an atmosphere of fear and hatred. I can't take a side against or for either side. They have to make peace. Any peace is better than the war that has been going on with short breaks since I was old enough to read a newspaper. The fighting has to end.
Roy Serohz
(236 posts)Repeated inconsistencies in Israeli descriptions of the situation have sparked debate over whether Israel wanted to provoke Hamas into a confrontation. Israeli intelligence is also said to have known that the boys were dead shortly after they disappeared, but to have maintained public optimism about their safe return to beef up support from the Jewish diaspora.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
How do you say "Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11" in Hebrew?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I'm so old I remember the formation of Israel. My opinion though of the present situation is that Netanyahu is a soul mate of Dick Cheney, if either of them have souls. I'm certain they will be high fiving each other in Hell when the time comes.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Just give me a crystal ball because I knew it was a setup. And I thought I was a non-believer.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)I mean they know what the results would be. It had to be a fringe group or a set up by IDF.. This is gonna kick the right wing on its ass..
defacto7
(13,485 posts)A couple of times in the last week I have posted that there are groups that really want a war and that the issues that started this action do not match the reaction. There are just too many illogical acts to see anything but a setup that both sides fell into and the winds of intent seem to blow from Netanyahu and the Likud.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The main political branch appeared to be working hard on a 'unity' government, and had geared down its own militant activities and even been trying to police the rocket firing of unaffiliated militants. But such a shift would likely have impacted the power of militants within the ranks. So it was always a possibility that some Hamas militants had gone rogue to deliberately sabotage the unity government and rebuild the power of the militant wing. But the same could be said of any militants who didn't approve of the notion of Hamas abandoning military action and wanted to continue to see violence, as you note above. Or some sort of 'sting' operation, reminiscent of the recent report that most of the foiled 'US terror plots' actually involved US federal agents goading people into committing crimes so they could be arrested.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Interesting that a false flag would be used as pretext for invasion...where have I heard that before?
When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.
But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Apparently rogue Palestinians are responsible for the murders but Hamas has not taken responsibility although it was blamed.
There has been a continuing state of war between Palestine and Israel since the early 1950s probably earlier. It's time for both sides to forget the past and think about improving the future for everyone.
War is never, never, never the answer. If rogue Palestinians are responsible for the murders, then the Palestinians must do what the Israelis have done with the Israeli revenge murderers, i.e., arrest those who killed the three Israelis and try them for murder.
It's time for peace. Both sides have to work hard for it and forget their past grievances. Both sides need secure borders and opportunities to improve the lives of their people. That can only be done if there is peace.
War is not the answer.
PolarVortex
(6 posts)Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
~Hermann Goering
Habibi
(3,596 posts)"But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all."
Sorry if I'm comprehension-impaired, but where in the article is an official quoted as stating this? I'm being challenged on this in another forum, and I'd like to find an actual quote. Thanks to anyone who can help--Google is just turning up iterations of the original article.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)But I am not special or unique. Which means that other people are having these thoughts arise.
The Israelis had better start giving that some consideration.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)Its really enlightened me..
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)it should be required reading everywhere.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)Hasas clamied credit. Or am i missing something? If this is true rhere are no words.
busterbrown
(8,515 posts)It could have been a fringe group looking to disrupt any kind of a coalition govt. forming on the West Bank.
In the meantime this is a great overview...
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Three kids murdered in West Bank, where there is no Hamas. So the IDF gears up to ignore the murderers and inflict a collective punishment on Palestinians by rounding up hundreds of people who had nothing to do with the murder in West Bank, and bombing Gaza. Then bomb Gaza. Then pretend that the rockets fired in response are the cause. Then keep saying it's "raining rockets!" and "Hamas Hamas Hamas." Then pretend the global response against this atrocity is due to hatred of the Jews. Etc. etc.
kentuck
(110,947 posts)that one of the kids called to say that they had been "kidnapped" and they could hear "Hebrew" voices in background and "Hebrew" music playing on the car radio... They knew this all along.