Think for a moment: the CIA got caught spying on Congress

[MannyGoldstein]

And after the CIA's director told us that this could not possibly have happened... turns out it happened, they 'fessed up today. But why would Mr. Brennan tell the truth? In this White House, liars like Gen. Clapper keep their jobs while truth tellers like John Kiriakou go to prison.

And the CIA also threatened to throw Congressional staff in jail for doing their job. Classy!

In any case: could there be any greater challenge to our Constitution than the Executive spying on, and threatening Congress?

Suppose we read a story about a banana republic, that described how the head of the intelligence service (promoted to his position after being involved in torture) was spying on and threatening members of the legislature who were investigating his agency.

Well, that's us.

Let's talk a little more about why the CIA was 'spying' on the Senate Intelligence Committee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025320097

[Newsjock]

1. Why do you hate America?

There, got that out of the way.

[grahamhgreen]

70. Congress hates America!

[onethatcares]

71. America hates America

I guess the great experiment didn't quite turn out the way it was supposed to.

I wonder what the founding dads would say about the standing army, the kkk, the tea party, social security and medicare, and all those things that weren't around in 1776.

[grahamhgreen]

97. - be a big argument about it.... BUT, they'd actually have real arguments about stuff they actually

believed, not come up with arguments like "if you give rich people more money they will work harder and create jobs, but if you give more money to the poor workers, they will just be lazy".

[LeftishBrit]

90. Why does the CIA hate America, more to the point?

[sabrina 1]

2. Yes, unfortunately we are heading towards being no better than some

banana republic.

[easychoice]

22. I think we are there

our government brings new meaning to the term lying scumbags.

[gratuitous]

3. Water under the bridge; we're looking forward!

Ancient history. Everybody knew. Nobody cares. You have ODS.

[mindwalker_i]

4. I've heard of hitting the nail on the head

but you don't need to beat the shit out of it!

[think]

5. Here's to kinder friendlier oligarchs.

Last edited Fri Aug 1, 2014, 09:31 AM - Edit history (1)

May they realize the wealth they have.

May they see the mizery that bad policy and actions create.

May they explore the vessels that they are and feel the light that is given to all.

May they choose a better way.....

[JDPriestly]

8. +1000

[aikoaiko]

6. Dude, they are the CIA. Of course they lied. They are the CIA

You know the story of the scorpion, the frog, and crossing the river.

[JDPriestly]

7. K&R.

[rhett o rick]

9. The NSA/CIA Cabal is it's own branch of government and doesn't answer to Congress

or the President.

[MustBeTheBooz]

19. That's what I'm thinking. (eom)

[Jackpine Radical]

54. The prototype was Hoover's FBI.

[hifiguy]

57. Well, it hasn't answered to anyone

since 11/22/63 at any rate.

[Octafish]

91. The head branch.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5456280

[bigtree]

10. the executive agency impeding the investigation of a co-equal branch of government

. . . I can't remember a more chilling abuse of power by an agency of the executive.

CIA, at one point, claimed that the WH ordered the removal of documents from the committee computers. That's another explosive question.

my outline:

Let's talk a little more about why the CIA was 'spying' on the Senate Intelligence Committee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025320097

( . . . could use a few of these recs and kicks)

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Yes, your post deserves it.

[TT_Progress]

25. The question is: Is anything going to be done about it?

And if it is allowed to pass without being dealt with, what does that say?

[TheKentuckian]

11. That trillion gallons of toxic sewage ain't no bathwater and there is no baby in it.

Throw that shit out!

[blkmusclmachine]

24. So, all that Constitution-stripping stuff G W Bush pushed thru after 9/11...it was all premeditated?

Operation Northwoods

U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War With Cuba

"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans included the assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as a way to trick the American public and international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro."

edit from http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

[Jackpine Radical]

55. And the 1933 Business Plot (from Wikipedia):

The Business Plot was an alleged political conspiracy in 1933. Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler claimed that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow President of the United States Franklin D. Roosevelt, with Butler as leader of that organization. In 1934, Butler testified to the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormack-Dickstein Committee&quot on these claims.[1] In the opinion of the committee, these allegations were credible.[2] No one was prosecuted.

At the time of the incidents, news media dismissed the plot, with a New York Times editorial characterizing it as a "gigantic hoax".[3] While historians have questioned whether or not a coup was actually close to execution, most agree that some sort of "wild scheme" was contemplated and discussed

[ReRe]

14. K&R

Yip. Sure looks like it.

[JEB]

15. Here's an idea...

Congress cuts CIA funding by 50%.

[hifiguy]

58. Those who voted for that would start dropping like flies.

Mysterious accidents, planes falling out of the air on clear days, plain old disappearing. And strangely, none would ever be solved.

[pa28]

16. Isn't it odd that Clapper and Brennan lie to Congress with impunity and get to keep their jobs.

Everyone from the president on down frowns for the camera but will still treat these guys with the kind of deference usually reserved for Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon.

I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine somebody is holding the goods on our elected politicians in the tradition of J. Edgar Hoover. Hell, that would explain quite a bit IMO.

[blkmusclmachine]

28. 14 Characteristics of Fascism (http://rense.com/general37/char.htm)

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

4. Supremacy of the Military

5. Rampant Sexism

6. Controlled Mass Media

7. Obsession with National Security

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

9. Corporate Power is Protected

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

14. Fraudulent Elections

[QuestForSense]

35. We're already there. This is also the platform of the neocons and their minions.

[DJ13]

29. Congress lies to the voters all the time, nothing surprises anymore

[Lurks Often]

94. Or the elected officials are perfectly aware of what Clapper & Brennan

are doing and are completely ok with it.

If the CIA is holding something over our elected officials, what is it so horrible that they would go along?

Or if the CIA is threatening our elected officials, that would likely mean the Secret Service and the FBI are in it as well, of course that's venturing into the realm of conspiracy theory.

[Zorra]

17. Keep it simple: The 1%, MONEY. controls the government. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. +1

[rhett o rick]

92. I agree, but it would be good to know more about how.

Is there an organization that out ranks the President. An organization that is constant as presidents come and go? An organization that has control of the NSA/CIA? We should be able to figure out who specifically is running the country. Maybe those that stay in position of authority from president to president?

[Zen Democrat]

18. You say "In this WH" like it hasn't been going on for 60 years.

The last time a President fired a CIA Director, the recently-fired CIA Director was the de facto leader of the official government whitewash of his murder.

[MannyGoldstein]

20. Nixon did fire his Director of Central Intelligence

So there's some precedent.

[JackRiddler]

49. Apropos.

The years since 2001 have been like a Watergate every week.

[DeSwiss]

21. WE. ARE. THE. BANANA. REPUBLIC.

- Once you accept that reality, everything else falls into place.

What is astounding to me is that we would in any way be surprised by these turn of events. It's almost (in the most bizarre of ways), funny. I mean we allowed the CIA to scoop up 1000s of Nazis after WWII and put them to work for us and now we're surprised that they acted like Nazis. (The St Louis Experiments; Unethical Human Experimentation In The United States; Government Secret Experiments Nazi Style Human Experimentation By U.S. Government)

Duh.

Then fast forward to Frank Church and Daniel Inouye and here we go again:

[center]Frank Church Committee Hearings

[/center]

They experiment on us with impunity. And they spy on us with impunity. They slip their spies into the Fourth Estate to control what is said and heard and opined about. And yet somehow we're to think they're somehow a benign and a benevolent thing that will never harm us, only our enemies.

But that list of enemies is made by them, not us.

Seriously. Whatever happens from this point out, we have no one to blame but ourselves. And nobody can fix this but the ones who fucked it up. US. Politicians can't do it because they're OWNED OUTRIGHT by the people to whom the CIA answers. The Rich. The Fed. The 1%.

Sociopathic degenerates do what sociopathic degenerates do. And sociopaths love power so it shouldn't surprise anyone that that's where you'll find them: in government.

Remember, Eisenhower tried to warn us but we paid him no heed. The times were good, the economy was humming and all was right with the world.

- Until it wasn't....

[TT_Progress]

27. But it has gone up a few notches since those times

I mean *openly* spying on congress?

[DeSwiss]

38. That we know of.

We only know what we know now because they got caught at it. When you're a spying agency, when do you stop spying? The CIA dealt drugs in Nam', Columbia, Mexico and they're doing it now in Afghanistan using US soldiers to guard the crop. I don't know how much more blatant they would have to be before the scales will fall.

For example, I'm still surprised that many don't know of George W. Bush's grandfather's Former Senator Prescott Bush (AKA: Hitler's banker) involvement with the attempted coup of FDR, in the infamous Business Plot..

It was the spectre of a 1917 revolutionary Russia here in the good ol' USA that scared some Wall Street tycoons shitless. And when the food riots broke out in Michigan during the depression, they had to call out the state militia. And then again having Dougie Mac and Eisenhower no less, repel the Bonus Army when they showed up in DC demanding the premiums they were promised for service in WWI for later, now - when they needed it. Membership in socialist and communist organizations sky-rocketed. J. Edgar Hoover's career got a huge boost hunting spies and commies, and formed the chrysalis of what would become the Police State that we now recognize so well. Total Information Awareness, indeed.

The New Deal was the price to avoid that revolution, and some didn't want to pay it. The Wall Street Coup attempt was investigated by Congress, but you won't find it listed in any school text books. Particularly in Texas. FDR himself quashed any further investigation into the attempt.

- Instinctively we know all this. Practically, we ignore it -- hence, all the problems......

[center][/center]

[TT_Progress]

40. Crazy isn't it?

[defacto7]

30. Just for the record...

not all or even most of the scientists and mathematicians that were "brought" from Germany were Nazis. They were Germanic yes, but that is not synonymous with Nazi. Hitler allowed some wealthy brilliant individuals who were also Nazi resistors to leave by agreement and payment. I have known some of them.

[DeSwiss]

39. For the record......

...I am making a specific reference here to Operation Paperclip, run by Bill Donovan of the OSS, which was the forerunner of and later became, the CIA.

I'm not talking about anyone else, nor do I think I have I implied thusly.

Thank you.

[defacto7]

61. Understood.

You are very specific and I am an advocate for being so. Not everyone thinks in those terms though when they read such an article. Is it their fault? Sure. But being an advocate for peace I'd rather see the mistaken details understood at the cost of my own redundancy.

Your post is appreciated.

[JackRiddler]

52. After World War II, Hitler was dead.

We're talking about the wholesale adoption of scientists and spies who had worked diligently in the programs and agencies of the defeated Nazi regime by the U.S. government into the CIA and other programs, as well as the creation of the West German intelligence agencies out of the Gehlen Organization, after the war. Some were Nazis, some were loyal technocrats, all had participated willingly and operationally in the regime and its war.

After the war.

[defacto7]

62. Understood. Thank you.

[MannyGoldstein]

44. Holy cow.

Nasty stuff, important videos!

Eisenhower was amazing.

[winter is coming]

51. But we have the best bananas in the world, so it's all good.

[KauaiK]

31. I think Nancy Pelosi had it right

everyone is afraid of the NSA. The military / industrial complex is now the government.

[hifiguy]

59. It has been since late November 1963.

[EEO]

32. Ah, the legacy of the OSS and CIG - a bureaucracy that doesn't answer to anyone.

[Helen Borg]

33. And we know that, if this came out....

Things must be much worse in reality.

[TT_Progress]

41. Seems so doesn't it

[Separation]

34. I for one, kneel before and welcome our new Overlords.

[PoliticAverse]

36. Who's the modern day Frank Church? Anybody??...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

[Octafish]

46. Paul Wellstone was like Frank Church.

Karl Rove considered Paul Wellstone the main enemy of the Bush White House.

The Nation wrote that a few months before that awful day:

http://www.thenation.com/article/paul-wellstone-fighter

I remember on DU we noted how Wolf Blitzer zeroed in on weather, despite what his reporter on scene was saying. It sounded like Wolf wanted to make certain CNN was on the side of "accidents happen" from the first day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3931991

[hifiguy]

60. A friend of mine was flying Coleman to the same destination

on that day. The planes were within 10-20 miles of each other according to her. She saw nothing particularly unusual about the weather. She had no explanation for why a plane could go down in such circumstances if it had fuel.

Which means either the pilot flew the plane into the ground or that something knocked it out of the sky.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Octafish]

65. Another oddity: Wellstone co-pilot pointed out '20th hijacker' Moussaoui wanted to fly 747...

...Guess was a flight instructor. Reported it odd that Moussaoui was just interested in learning how to turn 747 toward a spot on the map, and not in taking off and landing.

Co-pilot played minor role in story of Moussaoui

Associated Press, 26 October 2002

MINNEAPOLIS - The co-pilot who died in the crash of Sen. Paul Wellstone's plane played a minor role in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the alleged Sept. 11 conspirator who briefly attended an Eagan flight school.

Co-pilot Michael Guess had performed administrative work at the Pan Am International Flight Academy last year as he continued accumulating flying hours. There he met Moussaoui, the school's most infamous student.

Two former Pan Am program managers who tipped the FBI to Moussaoui's suspicious behavior at the school in August 2001 told the Star Tribune that Guess inadvertently gave Moussaoui unattended access to a computer program on flying a 747 jumbo jet.

One of the ex-managers said Guess placed a CD-ROM containing the 747 software at a work station in advance of one of Moussaoui's training sessions, before his flight instructor arrived. After Moussaoui was arrested and the FBI searched his belongings, they found the proprietary program copied on his laptop computer, the ex-manager said.

Guess was a victim of layoffs several weeks ago at the flight academy, where he had hoped to become a flight instructor.

At Executive Aviation in Eden Prairie, where Guess had been employed as a pilot since June 2001, a spokesman said colleagues remembered Guess telling them he had played a more significant role regarding the suspicions concerning Moussaoui.

Dave Mona, a spokesman for Executive Aviation, said Guess' colleagues had said that Guess had described himself as "at least a role player" in the detection of Moussaoui. Mona said Guess told his colleagues that "he and the receptionist . . . thought what (Moussaoui) was requesting was unusual" and raised the issue with others.

SOURCE: AP via http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/PWcopilot.html

Of course, the FBI defended Moussaoui's Fourth Amendment rights and refused to look into his laptop until Sept. 12, 2001. Guess died with Wellstone and the others. One of the other staffers at the flight school received a $5 million reward from the Department of Justice.

For those interested in the subject, and for new DUers and readers who may not remember Moussaoui's role:

Know your BFEE: The Stench of Moussaoui Permeates the Octopus

PS: Thank you for relating the story about your friend, hifiguy. I hope she is well and her career gratifying. When I brought this up on DU, I was reminded how paranoid it was. That the investigation found probable icing or pilot error as the cause. I can't remember who said which, but I got both "right answers."

[hifiguy]

66. Last I heard of her she's fine and flying.

She was pretty seriously freaked out by the fact that she could just as easily have been flying Wellstone that day as both candidates obtained similar planes from regular general aviation charter services. If Wellstone's campaign had called her employer she might have gone down with that plane. Which is really chilling.

[SamKnause]

37. K&R

[Scuba]

42. Kick.

[riderinthestorm]

43. K&R times 1000. nt

[KG]

45. surely the surveillance state fans will jump right in here....

surely...

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Any minute now... nt

[JackRiddler]

53. It's incredible, no?

Snowden! Assange! Here, Rover, red meat, come on, bark! Bark!

[riderinthestorm]

64. I noticed the same on this other thread too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014857207

Its because they're actually pro- authoritarian. They don't have any way to wrangle an Assange, Snowden or Greenwald angle into these threads to derail them which means they'd be left dealing with the actual issue. Because that position is indefensible here on DU they have to stay mute.

[leftstreet]

50. DURec

[hootinholler]

56. kick for later n/t

[tridim]

63. File another lawsuit Manny. One against the WH and one against Gen. Clapper.

The beat em both with your chained CPI.

[MannyGoldstein]

69. Sounds like you're cool with the CIA spying on Congress.

And interfering with an investigation by threatening the investigators.

And lying to Congress.

[neverforget]

83. I like how the poster slammed you with nary a word about the CIA spying on Congress.

Appears you are more important than that......you should feel honored or something

[WillyT]

67. K & R !!!

[MissDeeds]

68. Holy hell

It's getting increasingly difficult to tell who the good guys are.

Question everything, doubt nothing.

[Garthem]

72. So?

Republicans need to be spied on!

[Enthusiast]

73. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

There is simply no justification for the CIA spying on Congress.

[spanone]

74. nothing to think about. rogue agency. shut it down. now.

this shall not stand.

[grasswire]

76. anyone got the jury results for post #47?

Sure would like to see the comments.

[BainsBane]

77. The CIA lied?

OMG. That has never happened before. There are only hundreds of books published on the CIA doing that in every decade since it's creation.

Oh right. But this is about senators. Obviously that is so much more important than the hundreds of thousands of brown people killed around the globe as a result of CIA sponsored coups and funding of paramilitary groups and military dictatorships. If only Obama would have instructed the CIA to kill people, like good presidents do, then it would have been okay.

[MannyGoldstein]

82. I shudder to ask...

But does your post have a point?

Besides, of course, not addressing the obvious key point - that the CIA is spying on Congress - were you trying to say something in particular? That it's OK to lie to Congress? That I'm ignoring people getting turned to Freedom Mist by the CIA (which I've written on many times)?

What?

[BainsBane]

84. I am saying it is absurd to declare it an unprecedented constitutional crisis

In any case: could there be any greater challenge to our Constitution than the Executive spying on, and threatening Congress?

Yes, there have been greater challenges to the Constitution, but to judge that you would have to know something about the past.

Think about the term you used, "banana republic," and where that comes from. That should give you some perspective of the historical role of the CIA. The irony of using a pejorative term for developing nations that emerged from US imperialism--all the while bemoaning unprecedented crimes of the CIA-- is clearly lost on you.

[MannyGoldstein]

85. Let's keep this simple.

When, since World War II, has there been a more profound attack on the Constitution than the Executive spying on Congress, lying to Congress, and obstructing an investigation by threatening to throw Congressional investigators into prison? Please be specific.

You might be right, perhaps there has been something worse - but I can't think of anything.

[BainsBane]

89. Since WWII?

Why the limit? Most of the most contentious crises were in the nineteenth century, the Bank and Nullification being commonly cited. Ultimately the Secession of Southern States would prove to be the ultimate Constitutional Crisis, leading to Civil War.

Constitutional Crisis is a term greatly overused. Conflicts between branches of governments emerge that are not crises. While I would think it clear that the CIA's spying of the senate violated the constitution, a violation is not the same as a crisis. For it to be a crisis, the Executive and Congressional branches would both have to assert their actions were justified and that they each in turn had authority over the issue. The CIA and the White House are not claiming that to be the case. They admit it was a violation. Therefore no constitutional crisis is triggered. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.upenn.edu%2Flive%2Ffiles%2F104-levinsonbalkin157upalrev7072009pdf&ei=yn7cU9zKMoydyAT374KgAg&usg=AFQjCNECWsJN5yPSZcbzU8-8FViORj2riQ&sig2=zfq9x53DDQST5jv6vHQqBA

The author of the article above cites Little Rock in 1957 as an example of a type of constitutional crisis where different branches of government each assert authority and refuse to acknowledge the authority of the other.

I can tell you of constitutional violations I consider more concerning than spying on congress: NSA surveillance and effective nullification of the Fourth Amendment. I do not consider spying of congress more serious than of ordinary Americans. I am relieved to know that you discovered congress exists, however. You have spent at least a year focusing entirely on the Presidency and it's potential occupants.

I would also say suspension of Habeas Corpus during the war on terror is of greater concern.

In terms of the CIA particularly, involvement in the assassination of Americans on US soil in furtherance of a brutal right-wing dictatorship strikes me as more serious. http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB199/ As well as Americans and Chileans killed in the aftermath of the US sponsored coup that overturned the oldest democracy in Latin America. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=newssearch&cd=1&ved=0CBsQqQIoADAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeoplesworld.org%2Fjudicial-finding-in-chile-says-u-s-complicit-in-death-of-young-americans%2F&ei=1XPcU-HTMpOHyATVvoGQBw&usg=AFQjCNHAJIes8opvby8KPstz1HGrc1ZY9A&sig2=iD3l6HWU3ehcfP8B2OVyWw

The Iran Contra affair violated congressional authority since the White House and CIA broke the the Boland Amendment that made it illegal to arm the contra rebels seeking to overturn the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.

The US sponsored coup against Arbenz in 1954 was atrocious. US action was influenced by the fact that both the Director of the CIA and Secretary of State were major stock holders in United Fruit, a US company whose holdings were threatened by land reform proposed by the Arbenz government (only lands not currently cultivated). That coup led to the installation of a series of military dictatorships that would, with military aid and instruction by the US military (in the School of the Americas) and CIA, the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Guatemalans, mostly indigenous, over the subsequent four decades. That included torture of Guatemalans and Americans, like Sister Diana Ortiz, who wrote about her torture at the hands of an American. http://www.amazon.com/The-Blindfolds-Eyes-Journey-Torture/dp/1570755639

Other horrors by the CIA included the overthrow in 1953, of the Mosaddegh administration in Iran. That would set the conditions that would lead to the Iranian revolution of 1979, whose consequences we continue to face, including through the arming of Hamas and the conflict going on this very moment.

Really, Brenner has nothing on Allen Dulles, head of CIA during both of the above coups as well as the Bay of Pigs.

So it's one thing to say the spying on congress is bad and to give reasons why, but your ahistorical hyperbole irritates me. It seems the point as ever is to pretend Obama is the worst President in history. I have long grown weary of it.

[MannyGoldstein]

95. Slow down a moment. So many points you've raised.

One at a time, please. As you know, I'm a little slow-witted, so I appreciate your honoring my handicap.

Let's start with your first post in this thread. Are your points that:

1. my post was primarily about the CIA lying
2. CIA lying is not a big deal because they do it all the time
3. I'm just making it a big deal of it in this instance because it involves US senators, as opposed to killing thousands of "brown people" (your phrase) in foreign countries, which you believe that I'm cool with?

I'd appreciate simple corrections to the above. Let's get down to the core issues here.

Thanks!

[BainsBane]

99. I'm saying it is not unprecedented

In any case: could there be any greater challenge to our Constitution than the Executive spying on, and threatening Congress?

Yes, there could be and there has been, as I have demonstrated.


I have also showed that it does not approach the worst thing the CIA has ever done, not only abroad but on US soil (at the very least they had knowledge of the Letellier and Moiffit assassination). I'm also saying some past CIA directors like Allen Dulles and
Richard Helms may Brennan look like a choir boy.

That does not mean it is not bad but rather that it is not the smoking gun you think proves once again that Barack Obama unique incompetence as Executive in Chief.

As for 3, yes. I don't believe you're cool with it, but you clearly consider it of lesser importance than this event, or perhaps you had limited knowledge of it. Your statement here makes clear you see the Senate spying as more serious than those events I chronicled:

In any case: could there be any greater challenge to our Constitution than the Executive spying on, and threatening Congress?

(Sorry for the delay in responding. I was struck with a migraine on Saturday and Sunday).

[NealK]

78. You traitor!

Why do you hate Obama? Etc. K&R BTW.

[salib]

79. Well, as long as Congress is deadlocked like this, there will never be any consequences.

Perhaps, that is the point. The real branch of Govt that has been running away with power for the entire cold war and beyond has been the Executive, and the only real control of that branch lies with Congress. What better way to eviscerate it than to have different parties controlling different house.

[raindaddy]

80. This leaves the door wide open for the next Republican administration..

that decides to ignore the Constitution and seize control of the government. Psssst, if you're defending the homeland the laws this country was built around no longer apply.

[Utopian Leftist]

81. I've been calling them Banana Republicons since

one Baby Bush gave the Presidency to the other Baby Bush.

[Uncle Joe]

86. Congress created this monster and they will have to kill it. The Congress

didn't trust the American People so they trashed the 4th Amendment and decided to spy on everyone, they didn't trust the Geneva Conventions and raise a stink when Cheney/Bush promoted the use of torture, they didn't trust the judiciary or rule of law when it came to prisoners of war.

They thought we as a nation should be governed by the jungle, so they decided to ride a tiger, it's not so to easy getting off.

There was a young lady of Niger
Who smiled as she rode on a tiger;
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside,
And the smile on the face of the tiger.

Thanks for the thread, MannyGoldstein.

[grasswire]

88. kick nt

[Oilwellian]

93. An important OP

Kick

[Calista241]

96. I think Obama needs to clean house.

CIA, NSA, Dept of Homeland Security; they all need to go and be replaced.

It needs to be seen that there are consequences for doing shit like this.

I understand that Obama doesn't want to be controlled by events, but this situation is just ridiculous.

[grahamhgreen]

98. We can outsource everything they do to google and facebook... Wait, they already do.

[woo me with science]

100. kick