Why did Hamas just launch more rockets, and can Israel be blamed?

[Ahmed Aftab]

The NY Times reports that Hamas has again launched rockets into Israel to mark the end the 72 hour cease fire.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/09/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip-conflict.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSum&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

So again it is Hamas that has picked a fight. Will some again blame Israel for responding to the rocket fire?

[malaise]

1. Again - HUH?

Israel attacked Gaza after wrongfully accusing Hamas of abducting and killing three young Israeli men.

[Ahmed Aftab]

3. Yes, again . . .

because there was a 72 hour cease fire, and as soon as the 72 hours expired, Islamic Jihad launched more rockets. Israel offered to extend the 72 hour cease fire upon the same prior terms, and Hamas said no. It is all in the NY Times article.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Do you think Israel can respond without killing a shitload of civilians? n/t

[Ahmed Aftab]

63. This will depend . . .

upon how many human shields Israel has to go through.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. 'Human shields' is the new label for 'Palestinian civilians'?

Revolting. So you totally support the killing of civilians?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

78. How are they a 'shield' if you're going to just kill them?

Wouldn't the concept of 'human shield' imply that they actually had some value in preventing an attack on those they were 'shielding'? If it's simply accepted that you're going to lob missiles or mortars in anyway, they're not really any sort of 'shield', are they?

[malaise]

6. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaah so it's in the NYT

and that should mean exactly what to me again?
Is that the same paper that lied about Bushco's illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq?

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. Then please link to the Malaise Times

with, you know, your professionally vetted and edited articles that are accepted as
valid by most of the world.

[Ahmed Aftab]

61. The only credible source is . . .

the Iranian government's press office because they only photoshop their evidence occasionally. See the article in the Guardian: Has Iran joined the axis of Photoshop http://www.theguardian.com/news/blog/2008/jul/10/iranianmissiletestsnotwhat

[sabrina 1]

41. The NYT? Lol! Judith Miller comes to mind.

[Capt. Obvious]

2. Welcome to DU

[Fozzledick]

4. Because Hamas wants more war and violence.

And those who support them and also want more war and violence will try to blame Israel with any excuse they can make up, as they always do.

[malaise]

8. Maybe all they want is for the worse than apartheid conditions to be

removed.

[Fozzledick]

10. No, what they want is the total destruction of Israel.

That's why they chose to start this war, and they don't care how many Palestinians die in the process. Why do you want to make excuses for them?

[DanTex]

16. Actually, this war started when Israel used the kidnapped teens as an excuse to

go around arresting whoever they wanted.

[Fozzledick]

40. No, the war started when Israel withdrew from Gaza and Hamas kidnapped an Israeli

and then started firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

And the people Israel arrested in the West Bank were members of the terrorist group that kidnapped and murdered the three schoolboys.

[DanTex]

56. LOL. You really do believe every single word of Likud propaganda.

I imagine you also believed that Saddam was behind 9-11 and Iraq was hiding WMDs.

[Fozzledick]

81. You couldn't be more wrong.

But I'm sure you'll keep trying.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. You missed some important bits like the kidnap and murder of the Palestinian teen...

Plus it wasn't Hamas who murdered the three Israeli teens. It was a group in Hebron who are unrelated to Hamas who have carried out crimes for a long time. But Israel blamed Hamas from the first moment, and without any investigation, started to carry out wholesale arrests of Palestinians, bulldoze their homes, and kill a few Palestinians as well.

Is there anything that Israel claims that you don't believe? It appears that you believe it all 110%

[sabrina 1]

48. Why do you think people are buying these 'it's all Hamas' fault' talking points anymore?

Let me explain what people who have no vested interest in either side think. They see nearly 2,000 dead Palestinians, more than 300 of them innocent children, would you like to see some photos? And another one third or more, innocent civilians. Then they see the other side, approx 70 or so Israelis all but about 4 of them SOLDIERS.

And it looks like Hamas is better at the rules of war, avoid civilians as much as possible while Israel seems to be trying to excuse targeting UN buildings etc by claiming the old human shield talking point which few rational people are buying. Especially since we know that the Israeli military FOUGHT for the RIGHT to USE HUMAN SHIELDS.

That is how the world looking on sees things and when they see what are probably familiar talking points to those with long time involvement in the issue, THEY DON'T MAKE SENSE to neutral observers.

I hope that helps you to understand why Israel is LOSING the propaganda war and why maybe those who support Israel stop trying to excuse the brutal attacks that the world is seeing and try to find a solution to this problem which the world is also sick and tired of.

If N. Ireland could do it, Israel and Palestine can do it. But there has to be a will to do it and that appears to be the main problem here.

[Ahmed Aftab]

60. "Hamas is better at the rules of war, avoid civilians as much as possible."

Sabrina makes a good point when she says this because Hamas is abiding by international law and committing no war crime when it aims rockets at civilians, instead of military targets. Even if these rockets are aimed at civilians, Hamas is correctly characterized as trying to "avoid civilians as much as possible." The only reason there has been more Palestinian death than Israeli death is Hamas' attempt to "avoid civilians," and has nothing to do with military weakness.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

80. I think a closer to accurate point would be

that Hamas can't actually really 'aim' the crappy rockets they use. So as long as more than half of the area they're 'aiming' at isn't covered in human beings, they could technically claim not to be aiming at civilians, but really, as it stands, I don't think anyone can honestly say they're either 'targeting civilians' or 'avoiding civilians'. They simply shoot, and wherever it goes, it goes. Criminal indifference.

If they actually had rockets they could decide where they hit, we'd actually know for sure whether or not they actually would choose to target civilians.

[malaise]

53. You may well be right but in the meantime Israel's war criminal leader

has committed genocide and is way ahead in terms of the total destruction of Gaza.
The mean is no longer realistic - we have eyes to see.

[yeoman6987]

27. Destruction of Israel is their goal

I have been going back and forth on my support of Israel......However, I am back with the President with 100 percent support of Israel. Hamas is insane.

[HERVEPA]

31. Yeh, sure. And firing these rockets achieves that how.

All it achieves it getting more people, mostly people and kids from Gaza, killed. But you don't seem to mid that I guess, since it's not you being fired at. Or are youposting from Gaza?
By the way, do you ever really respond to people's points rather than continually restating your own?

[Taitertots]

45. Then why are they taking actions (rockets) that will only worsen their situation?

1. Indiscriminate rocket fire at innocent civilians
2.???????
3. Better conditions in Gaza

[badtoworse]

7. Hamas is not interested in peace.

[dembotoz]

9. not if peace means living in a warsaw ghetto

i know it is early to do the ww2 comparison but god damn it is so obvious

[badtoworse]

12. They've never had any goal other than the destruction of Israel and...

...they've never recognized Israel as a legitimate state. Those things are not compatible with any desire for peace. I don't recall ever hearing Hamas say they were interested in negotiating to improve things in Gaza and they've been firing rockets into southern Israel for years. I would conclude they are only interested in a military solution even if it means their own destruction.

[dembotoz]

18. if i was there facing exterminatiion by israel i imagine i would feel the same

shit i can't stand repbulicans and the at least not openly bombing my house

[leftynyc]

21. They don't want Gaza

They want ALL of Israel and have said so many times. Along with killing all the Jews which is in their charter. I'm sick to death of people pretending these things don't exist. If this really were WWII, I imagine everyone here would be decrying FDR going to war and can't even imagine what they'd be saying about the nukes we dropped to end the war. They seem to think it's like a fucking video game where only the bad guys get hurt. This is war, civilians die. I blame hamas.

[onenote]

32. You are apparently woefully ignorant of the Warsaw Ghetto

The Holocaust and the Warsaw Ghetto were singularly horrific events and the repeated attempts by some DUers to equate Gaza to Warsaw are ignorant and sick. Period.

That doesn't mean the situation is Gaza is good. Indeed, it is intolerable. But that doesn't make referencing it in the same breath as Warsaw appropriate.

Some facts I'm going to assume you don't know.

Some 400,000 Jewish men, women, and children of Warsaw were forced into an area 1.3 square miles.

In the first two years after the Ghetto was established, 83,000 Jews died of starvation. Then, over a two month period starting in late July 1942 and ending in mid September 1942, the Germans loaded between 250,000 and 300,000 of the Warsaw Ghetto's inhabitants and sent them to the Treblinka death camps where they were put in gas chambers, ovens, or shot. In January 1943, the Germans started the trains again. But the Jews of Warsaw, having learned that the trains were not merely taking their fellow Jews to labor camps, but were taking them to extermination camps, rebelled. The purpose of the rebellion was not to defeat the Germans. The Jews knew that they would die fighting the Germans. They simply wanted to go down fighting. The Germans, initially frustrated in their effort to meet the quota of Warsaw Jews they were able to load onto trains, paused in their efforts for a couple of months. But in April 1943, they responded with an assault on the Ghetto in which they killed 13,000 and captured the remaining 56,000, all of whom were sent to Treblinka or Auschwitz to be exterminated.

Life in Gaza, both before and after the current conflict, was no picnic. It is a terrible place. But by every single measure, comparisons between it and Warsaw are bullshit. Gaza City, the most densely populated part of Gaza, has a population of around 500,000 in a 17 square mile area. It has a positive birth rate. It has an economy, with Gross Domestic Product. A luxury hotel was built in Gaza in 2011. It is listed on TripAdvisor. It is open to reporters. There were no reporters describing what went on in Warsaw. There were no hotels. No commerce. It did not have population growth. It had population decline, due to starvation and systematic murder without even the fig leaf of a military rationale. The Jews of Warsaw, both before and during the Ghetto period, were never a threat to German civilians. Even the resistance posed no threat to German civilians.

So, please, make the point that Gaza is a terrible place with terrible conditions and that Israeli policies must change. Just don't do it with the false meme that Gaza is in any way comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto. What Israel is doing is disproportionate. It also happens to be what armies unfortunately do in every war: kill innocents in the name of an ostensible military action. It is what the British did when they killed 25,000 Germans in Dresden. It is what the US did when it dropped atomic bombs on the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, causing the deaths of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Japanese. Those actions were horrific and one can debate whether Truman and Churchill were "war criminals." But the actions of the Germans were not merely different from those actions as a matter of degree. What the Germans did was different in kind from what the British did, what the US did, and what Israel has done.

[enid602]

35. propaganda

The people who made the Warsaw ghetto possible never claimed to be progressive, reasonable or pro-democratic. These are the code words constantly interjected into every communication we receive from Israeli Government spokespeople and CNN's Wolf Goebbels, er, Blitzer. With Gaza land just having been reduced by 40%, and increasing calls for detainment camps outside Gaza, what other comparison are we supposed to make?

[stevenleser]

62. It's the diametric opposite of propaganda. It's historic and verifiable fact.

And it ruins any argument you make to try to equate just about anything to the holocaust

[enid602]

64. bibi

A brilliant and thoughtful defense. Bibi will need you in his upcoming trials.

[The Magistrate]

76. Not Propaganda, Sir: Flat Fact

Your refusal to acknowledge that speaks for itself.

[Violet_Crumble]

77. Here's when it'd be acceptable to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto...

If something like the following happened, I'd be right in there making the comparison myself, because it'd be spot on

1. The Israeli government incites hatred of Palestinians, discriminates against them (this bit would apply to Israeli-Arabs) by banning them from a whole lot of fields of work, and bans them from universities, and forces them to wear a label on their clothing when in public to identify to others that they're Palestinian.

2. Israel invades Jordan and starts to set up camps, the existence of some kept low-key because they're death camps.

3. Israel takes a neighbourhood of Amman that's heavily populated by Palestinians, builds a wall around it so no-one can get out and starts to herd the population of the West Bank, Gaza, and Israeli Arabs into it.

4. The new ghetto's used as a holding cell before the inhabitants are shipped off to the death camps.

Now can you see the difference? None of the above is happening. An accurate comparison to make when it comes to Gaza is that it's an open-air prison. But comparisons to the Warsaw Ghetto are insensitive at best, and at times when made deliberately, anti-Semitic. And here at DU, it distracts from the horrific things that are happening in Gaza and gives a very few DUers who haven't said a word about how horrible and wrong the killing of civilians in Gaza is the opportunity to jump in and try to paint all criticism of Israel as being anti-Semitic and to imply that those DUers who are critical of Israels actions of being supporters of Hamas.

So, please quit the Warsaw Ghetto comparisons.

[enid602]

83. prisons

Well, you're right in noting that Israel has not attacked its neighbors. Setting up tent camps outside of Gaza has, however been suggested lately in the Israeli press. Don't most prisons have some access to food? Don't most prisons have working power plants? How many prisons that you know of are bombed constantly? To limit discussion of these 'prisons' to appease the jailers' sensibilities is not helpful.

[MrBig]

38. Absolutely fantastic post

Gonna bookmark it for future use

[riderinthestorm]

39. + 10000. K&R. The anti Semitic bullshit is disgusting. nt

[stevenleser]

59. Unfortunately, those who need to read and understand this don't care. They WANT to hurt people.

They want to hurt survivors and their families all over the world, most of whom have nothing to do with what is happening in the Middle East.

They also don't care that their comparison is so hyperbolic its completely ridiculous.

Hyperbolic, hateful, hurtful, incorrect, insensitive, etc. They don't care about any of that, as the first responder to you aptly demonstrated.

It's too bad too because your explanation is excellent.

[Mugu]

66. Hear hear! n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Nor is Israel n/t

[intaglio]

11. Perhaps because the ceasefire was over

and Israeli oppression of the Palestinians continues? Perhaps because Israel has unilaterally declared 40% of Gaza as being off limits to the Palestinians? Maybe Because the harassment of Palestinians in the West Bank continues? What about the broken promises regarding illegal settlements?

Do you think that, maybe, these things have something to do with it?

[Ahmed Aftab]

67. But can't they . . .

protest Israel without committing war crimes, like aiming for civilians? Can't they just make speeches, boycott, and divest?

[DanTex]

13. I don't know exactly, but the 300 children that IDF murdered might have something to do with it.

[onenote]

33. Will firing rockets into Israel bring those children back? Will it prevent more children from being

killed?

What purpose do those rockets actually serve?

This conflict is ages old. What would have been the downside to Hamas in continuing the cease fire, in continuing to negotiate?

How do you see this conflict being resolved if the deaths of the past (on both sides) is the sole determinant of how things will be in the future?

[DanTex]

57. What would be the downside to Israel not murdering civilians by the hundreds?

Always bizarre that Likudniks spend so much time talking about the three citizens Hamas killed, given that the war crimes committed by Israel are a hundred times greater in magnitude of human death toll.

[Ahmed Aftab]

68. 300 more

Shouldn't they wait for a time when Israel is less likely to kill 300 more? Or is it that Hamas actually wants child casualties for political gain? The NY Times ran an article gathering evidence that this is so. Notably Hamas built no bomb shelters for civilians.

[Katashi_itto]

14. Israel to pay students to defend it online

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-students-social-media/2651715/

[dembotoz]

19. to rephrase judy collins--so send in the trolls.......

[leftynyc]

22. I've been here over a decade

and 3 different times this week I was accused of being paid to defend Israel.

[Chathamization]

26. It is interesting how many new people who only write posts defending Israel have popped up.

Management has been deleting them for the most part, but it would be interesting to keep track of many online propagandists have been here.

[yeoman6987]

30. How funny coming from someone with 622 posts

[Chathamization]

34. So, a poster who’s been here a week with 100% of their 22 posts defending Israel is the same as

a poster who’s been here two years with 5% of their 622 posts discussing Israel/Palestine?

Eh…thanks for letting me know what sort of logic you work with?

[el_bryanto]

15. How many innocent Palestinians will die in Israels reprisal?

I suppose that's the question one would ask - how many Israelis were killed by this rocket, and how many Palestinians will be killed in response. If history is any judge one of those numbers will be considerably higher.

Bryant

[Ahmed Aftab]

69. If history is any judge . . .

the comparison will be between Palestinians civilians killed and Israelis that were saved.

An awful lot more Israelis would have died if Israel gave terrorists carte blanche. For all we know more Israeli lives were save than Palestinians killed.

It is irrelevant how many Israelis did die, except to support the claim that Israel's defensive measures really did save lives.

Also, Israel says it killed 900 militants, and their lives don't count, as they essentially were punished with the death penalty.

[el_bryanto]

72. hmmm - so in your assessment Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian ones? nt

[egduj]

17. That's how Hamas wins hearts and minds of the uninformed.

They start a fight, get smashed, and then post pictures of how mistreated they are and the rest of the world goes "Oh, poor Hamas..."

[Calista241]

20. Agreed. N/t

[leftynyc]

23. +1000

Amazing how effective that is with people who think the world is black and white.

[tammywammy]

25. Agreed. n/t

[Niceguy1]

29. yup...and the fall for

It every time...

[Maedhros]

55. Nope. The rest of the world watches Israel inflict collective punishment on innocent Palestinians

in response to Hamas' actions, and goes "That's not called for."

I would say "try harder next time", but you're going on the ignore list so I won't see it.

[kentuck]

24. Are we to assume it is true?

I guess so.

The NY Times would not permit itself to be used for propaganda reasons.

[bravenak]

28. Lol!

Never. They would never do that.

[Marrah_G]

36. I will blame Israel if they respond by murdering more civilians.

[Xolodno]

37. In simplistic terms...

Hamas goal is to destroy Israel.....weather they do it....or Israel does it to themselves by becoming the very terrorists they say they are protecting themselves from. And no nation wants to associate with them, creating an economic catastrophe for the country.

The Israeli right wing is playing exactly into Hamas's hands. And the right is easy to manipulate as they under no uncertain terms every want to see a two state solution and would like every Palestinian expelled from the area.

The fix is easy. Pull back to the 1967 borders, remove (or lease) the settlements and end all expansion. Give the PA what they want...East Jerusalem capital, right of return, etc. Declare Gaza PA territory under Hamas occupation...

...and you have a Fatah vs. Hamas situation. Whereby, Palestine can ask for an Arab coalition (with some European support) to free Gaza of Hamas.

But that won't happen.....when Likud is not much different than Hamas, both set on destroying each other.

[TheKentuckian]

50. and what happens when attacks escalate in quality and quantity and there is no peace?

And what happened to those 1967 borders in the first place, they didn't seem to be cure all you want to pretend now?

Sounds like an appeasement slow walk to the sea with absolutely nothing in return.

[Xolodno]

52. You are completely misunderstanding my post...

But its Friday....I'm tired and don't feel like clarifying.

[Ahmed Aftab]

70. But what if . . .

that results in missiles coming out of the West Bank. Israel already tried unilateral withdrawal, and in return got rockets.

[Xolodno]

84. Think about it...

Then you have missiles from a recognized sovereign state vs. an occupied territory with an oppressed people. That changes the game completely.

During the Hezbollah war...it was a war with Hezbollah (a proxy of Iran) vs. Israel. Not a war of Lebanon vs. Israel. And Hezbollah lost influence in Lebanon as a result.

[Puzzledtraveller]

43. they must have those worms in their heads

the ones from Star Trek Wrath of Khan that prevents them from seeing Hamas as anything but benevolent freedomfighters.

[dilby]

44. Why would they stop fighting when they have recieved nothing?

Israel is refusing to concede to any of Hamas's demands so there really is no need to go to the negotiation table. Hamas will continue to fight, Palestinians will continue to die, Israel will continue to lose soldiers and their citizens will eventually tire of losing their children and killing Palestinian children in which there will be a push to concede on Hamas's demands.

[Dreamer Tatum]

46. So Hamas must be completely satisfied or war goes on.

Gotcha.

[dilby]

47. Isn't that what negotiations are about.

Both sides not getting everything they want but something they want? Hamas got nothing so why should they stop fighting? Israel needs to concede to some of Hamas's demands or they will continue to have rockets lobbed at them.

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. What is Hamas willing to concede to Israel?

Other than to keep sending it rockets, I mean.

[Douglas Carpenter]

51. this is their official statement from a few years back - but I believe the offer still stands

Hamas's official offer of a truce with Israel from Ahmed Yousef:

By AHMED YOUSEF
Originally Published: November 1, 2006 in the New York Times

"Ahmed Yousef is a senior adviser to the Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniya."

"HERE in Gaza, few dream of peace. For now, most dare only to dream of a lack of war. It is for this reason that Hamas proposes a long-term truce during which the Israeli and Palestinian peoples can try to negotiate a lasting peace.
A truce is referred to in Arabic as a ''hudna.'' Typically covering 10 years, a hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences. The Koran finds great merit in such efforts at promoting understanding among different people. Whereas war dehumanizes the enemy and makes it easier to kill, a hudna affords the opportunity to humanize one's opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute.

Such a concept -- a period of nonwar but only partial resolution of a conflict -- is foreign to the West and has been greeted with much suspicion. Many Westerners I speak to wonder how one can stop the violence without ending the conflict.

I would argue, however, that this concept is not as foreign as it might seem. After all, the Irish Republican Army agreed to halt its military struggle to free Northern Ireland from British rule without recognizing British sovereignty. Irish Republicans continue to aspire to a united Ireland free of British rule, but rely upon peaceful methods. Had the I.R.A. been forced to renounce its vision of reuniting Ireland before negotiations could occur, peace would never have prevailed. Why should more be demanded of the Palestinians, particularly when the spirit of our people will never permit it?
When Hamas gives its word to an international agreement, it does so in the name of God and will therefore keep its word. Hamas has honored its previous cease-fires, as Israelis grudgingly note with the oft-heard words, ''At least with Hamas they mean what they say.''

This offer of hudna is no ruse, as some assert, to strengthen our military machine, to buy time to organize better or to consolidate our hold on the Palestinian Authority. Indeed, faith-based political movements in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Morocco, Turkey and Yemen have used hudna-like strategies to avoid expanding conflict. Hamas will conduct itself just as wisely and honorably.

We Palestinians are prepared to enter into a hudna to bring about an immediate end to the occupation and to initiate a period of peaceful coexistence during which both sides would refrain from any form of military aggression or provocation. During this period of calm and negotiation we can address the important issues like the right of return and the release of prisoners. If the negotiations fail to achieve a durable settlement, the next generation of Palestinians and Israelis will have to decide whether or not to renew the hudna and the search for a negotiated peace.
There can be no comprehensive solution of the conflict today, this week, this month, or even this year. A conflict that has festered for so long may, however, be resolved through a decade of peaceful coexistence and negotiations. This is the only sensible alternative to the current situation. A hudna will lead to an end to the occupation and create the space and the calm necessary to resolve all outstanding issues.

Few in Gaza dream. For most of the past six months it's been difficult to even sleep. Yet hope is not dead. And when we dare to hope, this is what we see: a 10-year hudna during which, inshallah (God willing), we will learn again to dream of peace.

Ahmed Yousef is a senior adviser to the Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniya. "

_______________________

And these comments regarding Hamas from Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami:

"SHLOMO BEN-AMI: Yes, Hamas. I think that in my view there is almost sort of poetic justice with this victory of Hamas. After all, what is the reason for this nostalgia for Arafat and for the P.L.O.? Did they run the affairs of the Palestinians in a clean way? You mentioned the corruption, the inefficiency. Of course, Israel has contributed a lot to the disintegration of the Palestinian system, no doubt about it, but their leaders failed them. Their leaders betrayed them, and the victory of Hamas is justice being made in many ways. So we cannot preach democracy and then say that those who won are not accepted by us. Either there is democracy or there is no democracy.

And with these people, I think they are much more pragmatic than is normally perceived. In the 1990s, they invented the concept of a temporary settlement with Israel. 1990s was the first time that Hamas spoke about a temporary settlement with Israel. In 2003, they declared unilaterally a truce, and the reason they declared the truce is this, that with Arafat, whose the system of government was one of divide and rule, they were discarded from the political system. Mahmoud Abbas has integrated them into the political system, and this is what brought them to the truce. They are interested in politicizing themselves, in becoming a politic entity. And we need to try and see ways where we can work with them.

Now, everybody says they need first to recognize the state of Israel and end terrorism. Believe me, I would like them to do so today, but they are not going to do that. They are eventually going to do that in the future, but only as part of a quid pro quo, just as the P.L.O. did it. The P.L.O., when Rabin came to negotiate with them, also didn't recognize the state of Israel, and they engaged in all kind of nasty practices. And therefore, we need to be much more realistic and abandon worn-out cliches and see whether we can reach something with these people. I believe that a long-term interim agreement between Israel and Hamas, even if it is not directly negotiated between the parties, but through a third party, is feasible and possible. "

link: http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

[Hugabear]

65. I suppose Hamas could concede more land

I suppose they could also accept that it's okay to be blockaded, quarantined, and treated as if they're just a gigantic leper colony.

[Ahmed Aftab]

71. Some people have been saying that would happend

for over 50 years now. What is different this time?

[NCTraveler]

54. Because it is a religious war. That about sums it up.

Nothing else really matters. Some are trying to make it out like some dispute over land. It is not. It is a religious war. When war is based on religious beliefs, none of it is going to make sense. Some really do think that it is about land to Hamas. Nope. They are fundies.

[LittleBlue]

58. Welcome to DU, erm... "Ahmed"

They don't bother with subtlety.

What next? "Jamaal Jackson" posting a support thread for Zimmerman?

[m-lekktor]

79. LOL!! nt

[regnaD kciN]

82. Don't feed the...well, you know...

Another addition to The List.

[pinboy3niner]

85. Troll already PPR'd by MIRT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=316545&sub=trans