General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFair for the Palestinians to force the cancellation of Israeli concerts, or pure terrorism?
The media reports today that Lana Del Ray, the sultry songstress, just postponed her concert in Tel Aviv to avoid possible risk from Hamas rockets. http://www.jpost.com/Arts-and-Culture/Arts/Lana-Del-Reys-Tel-Aviv-show-postponed-due-to-Gaza-crisis-370516
To me, this just doesn't seem fair. A lot of hard working Israeli high school students saved up to see the pop star live. And now they will have to wait. I guess they can watch her on Youtube in the meantime, but anyone who has been to a live concert can you that the two experiences just don't compare.
The goal of terrorism to strike fear into people's hearts so they are forced to alter their daily routine. And it seems this time around terrorism won, with the victim being high school students, who are too young to have fought in war, and most of whom do not even follow politics. Is this really fair? Shouldn't Hamas stop? Is enough ever enough?
NightWatcher
(39,370 posts)I think the Israeli kids will be okay if they miss a pop concert.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)all of whom served in the military, perhaps there is some justification. But what did the Israeli youth do to deserve punishment? They have never even voted for anything the Israeli government did. What justification can there ever be for punishing the ones entirely innocent? Should we punish kids for their fathers' supposed lapses?
Response to Ahmed Aftab (Reply #3)
Maedhros This message was self-deleted by its author.
Strelnikov_
(8,090 posts)based on the youtube's I just sampled.
No wonder Duane is still revered over 40 years after his death.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)'Hamas did them a favor'!
Was it really that bad?
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)because otherwise,
PersonNumber503602
(1,134 posts)Well, hoping it's satire.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Israel should be boycotted until they withdraw from their illegal settlements and cease practising de facto apartheid in the West Bank.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)You are talking about a single concert being cancelled, the blockade of Gaza that prevents anyone from entering or leaving the area means that Gaza won't get any concerts. The children of Gaza have suffered far worse than a cancelled concert however, they have been killed in the schools that Israel bombed.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)It is the American government that tells American citizens like Lana del Ray not to go to Gaza.
"The United States Government for some time has warned American citizens to avoid travel to Gaza. Due to the situation there, the U.S. government cannot assist Americans in entering Gaza and cannot provide assistance in exiting Gaza. American citizens who decide in spite of this warning to enter Gaza should understand that many American citizens have found themselves unable to exit Gaza once they entered." http://jerusalem.usconsulate.gov/border-crossings.html
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Ultimately it is the Israelis who are blockading Gaza however, that certainly does not mean Americans have nothing to do with it but it is the Israelis that are blocking the only ways in and out of Gaza. You know as well as I do, there is no way in hell the Israelis would ever allow any popular musicians to put on concerts in Gaza. They won't even allow the people of Gaza to have as much food as they need, when they limit the number of calories that can cross the wall they are certainly going to limit people bringing musical equipment past the wall.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)Egypt is blockading Gaza as much as Israel is, but I don't see you complaining as much as you do at Israel. That is pure discrimination.
See http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/hamas-warns-restarting-war-demand-gaza-blockade-lifted-egypt-talks
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)There is a huge difference in that Egypt is not occupying Gaza. Egypt has border security as most nations do, but they are not occupying anyone's land and limiting how much food they can eat nor are they bombing the Palestinian's homes and killing their children.
And for the record: I am not saying Egypt is right either, I am just saying that you are using a false equivilence.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)that Egypt is not bombing is that there haven't been Palestinian rockets fired into Egypt.
And Egypt is no less occupying Gaza than Israel is because Israel withdrew its troops, and is merely controlling the borders, as Egypt does too.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Israel controls Israel's borders, Egypt controls Egypt's borders.
But Most of Gaza has a border that is not shared with any other country. The watery one. And the only one blockading that is Israel.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)This conflict between Israel and Palestine did not begin with rockets, Israel walls Palestinians into a cramped area, does not allow them to have an airport or a seaport within their own borders, they limit the amount of food that can go in and how much Palestinians are allowed to eat. A nation is allowed to protect their own borders, they are not allowed to imprison a people within their borders and prevent them from leaving even if by air or sea.
enid602
(9,607 posts)American-based charities have been denied sccess to Gaza.
niyad
(129,326 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)And you're right, the experience of watching on Youtube doesn't even come close to being in a crowded, stuffy arena, sitting next to some stranger passed out in a puddle of his own puke.
Poor Israeli children are even more deprived than those lucky Palestinian children being denied life and limb.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)That is like saying kill all black people because one of them committed a murder. The Israeli children are too young to have done any crime. Yet Hamas aims to punish them.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Nothing in the post you responded to said anything remotely like "kill all black people because one of them committed a murder.". Seriously, you should be ashamed at your complete misrepresentation of what was said.
And by the way every single child that was killed in this current conflict was killed by Israel, no Israeli children have been killed but hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed some of who died when Israel bombed their schools.
frylock
(34,825 posts)how many dead Israeli kids can you count?
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 8, 2014, 08:08 PM - Edit history (1)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)A concert postponed?!? I guess thats supposed to be worse than bombing a UN shelter.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)The issue is not what person suffered the most. The issue is whether it is fair to punish a child for his father's sin. If you ask Hamas if the concert should be allowed, Hamas will say no. Hamas is quite happy to have stopped it, the same way Hamas gloats over shutting Israel's airport down for one day last month.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They get postponed up here all the time because we are so far from the Lower 48. We do not cry about our children being punished because a concert got postponed or canceled. You cannot bomb your closest neighbor without it coming back to haunt you in many ways. There will be more concerts cancelled as long as the right wingers on both sides keep fighting.
Isreal needs to stop sending out bad internet PR people. It's harmful to their cause, not helpful.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)your logic makes no sense. There are deserts in Africa where people regularly die from heat stroke. You argue that it is justified for an innocent and apolitical Israeli to die from heat stroke because it happens all the time in other places.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Basketball camp was canceled too.
You are harming your cause by being so obtuse.
My position is that the children of Gaza are innocent too. And they are dying by the hundreds for something that has nothing to do with them, and you want I should get upset about a CONCERT being postponed? Yo. That's crazy.
Nobody is going to DIE in the desert if a concert gets postponed, so I have no idea what you're going on about with that one. At least try to make your analogies or whatever they are, make sense.
All of Palestine is currently under collective punishment by Israel, right now, even the children. Why shouldn't we care about that, as opposed to a stupid concert being postponed? You are minimizing the deaths of hundreds of children when you post something so insensitive.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)that Israeli basketball camps have been cancelled too through the intentional act of Hamas to end such camps.
Israel currently has only two people in the NBA. It is not fair. To perform at such a high level, a kid basically has to go to basketball camp every summer. You cannot miss even one. So now there will be Israeli children who will never make it to the NBA. They had the skill. They had the drive. And now through no fault of their own, they will never make it. Hamas is gloating.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I really want to know. The only people I see GLOATING are the right wingers from Likud.
And how do you know who has the skill or the drive to be in the NBA? Are you Phil Jackson now? Ya know, they can come to BB camp here if they want to. Israel is our bestie and I'm sure you can start a fund on kickstarter to help fund the trip to BB camp in the states for all of those fine athletes. Warning!! Americans are the best BB players in the world, and they will end up competing with our best players for a spot in the NBA so, they still may not get to realize their dreams, even if they are good.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)I should try to raise money to bring Israeli kids to American basketball camp.
And if Israelis are so bad at basketball, how did two of them make it to the NBA, surpassing millions of Americans?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)NO. I JUST SAID, FULL OF NATIONAL PRIDE, I ADMIT, THAT WE ARE THE BEST AT THE SPORT WE CREATED! STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO PEOPLES MOUTHS!!
ONLY TWO? WELL I GUESS LEBRON SHOULD JUST HANG UP HIS SHOES!! ALL THE KIDS PLAYING IN THE HOOD BETTER WATCH OUT BECAUSE ONCE THAT CHILDREN'S BB CAMP IS FINISHED, THEY'LL BE OUT OF A JOB FOR SURE.
I made the words bigger, like how people yell at me because they think I don't speak english, and if they talk louder, I'll somehow understand them.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to be an attempt at satire. Because no one would seriously put forth the notion that the cancelled performance of a, (according to someone who actually clicked one of the links), not very good singer can be compared to the slaughter of hundreds of children.
I think people are just having fun with him/her at this point.
Well, I hope it is an attempt at satire. I would hate to think anyone could actually believe the notion that a cancelled concert is equal in 'punishment' to hundreds of dead children. But you never know.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You were all just human shields caught in the storm.
I know I shouldn't feed into it but, he caught me off guard. I believe about zero percent of what he says about himself.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Happy to be a human shield, for a good cause!
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Reminds me of Fred M. Just the opposite.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Bravenak did not say anything remotely suggesting she wanted to see Israelis die of heat stroke. This is at least the third time in this thread that you completely lied about what the person you are responded to said.
regnaD kciN
(27,426 posts)Too bad you can't ask the opinion of the 400+ Gazan children killed over the past few weeks, not even for their own fathers' sins, but for the sins of complete strangers with whom they probably never came even remotely in contact.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)You are really saying that yes, it is justified to punish uninvolved Israeli children for their father's supposed sins.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I sure as hell did not see anything from the person you responded to suggesting they believed it was OK to punish Israeli children. This is not the first time you have misrepresented a person's words in this thread in a vile manner, you should be ashamed at your blatant misrepresentations.
regnaD kciN
(27,426 posts)...that it's horrible, horrible that some Israeli teenagers have to miss a concert, but fine'n'dandy that several hundred Palestinian children have their lives snuffed out because of a paramilitary group to which they had no connection whatsoever.
frylock
(34,825 posts)you should direct the question to that fucking vampire, Netanyahu, and his supporters, some of whom post on this site.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)At least you are being honest when you say that, if you have a grievance with person A, and he punishes your child, you are justified to punish his child, as long as you pose to A the question of why he got the kids involved.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I bet It wasn't Gaza that called her up and told her it was a no go.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)Hamas would never allow a scantily clad woman to sing for a concert. It does not matter what Israel does, del Ray cannot go to Gaza until Hamas is overthrown.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Israel had many concerts while Hamas (i say that with the hardest 'H' possible, scary right?) was in control of Gaza. Remember? I suppose they must have had hundreds of concerts in the last ten years. Even with scantily clad female forms. Whooo!
Please stop acting like Hamas is in control of the Israeli government. It's bullshit.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)malaise
(292,158 posts)Give it a rest
slipslidingaway
(21,210 posts)Enrique
(27,461 posts)these fans need an emergency airlift to Lana's next tour stop.
KG
(28,792 posts)A-Schwarzenegger
(15,778 posts)is not
a joke
Bettie
(19,219 posts)Some kids in Israel might not get to see a concert and we're supposed to shed tears over that.
Some kids in Gaza won't survive the next week and that is A-OK.
Priorities. Wow.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)The point is not that the Gaza kids have it so great. I never touched on that topic.
Let's say your brother got murdered, and your sister got raped. Since murder is worse than rape, does this mean you call what happened to your sister nothing to get upset about?
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,778 posts)You're joking about a hideous bloody horror.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)it is illogical to call something right on the sole ground that there are greater wrongs.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)We do however think anyone who would show more outrage over a Lana del Ray concert being cancelled than they do over the bombings of schools and hospitals seriously has their priorities out of whack. I like Lana del Ray, but I think the cancelling of her show is pretty insignificant when compared to the slaughter of 2,000 people most of whom were innocent.
regnaD kciN
(27,426 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)Israeli Arabs like me have it better than any other Arab in the middle east. We are the richest and the only ones with democracy. And since Hamas is firing such low tech, inaccurate missiles, we Arabs are as much the target as the Israeli Jews. Pardon me for not supporting Hamas bombing Arab civilian houses, in order to take one for the team.
JI7
(93,113 posts)by those who are not arab/muslims claiming they have it the best.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)that we Israeli arabs cannot possibly oppose Hamas rocket fire that endangers us, as much as it does Israeli Jews. And not one of us Israeli arabs is ignorant that we have it better than any other Arab here. For you to suggest otherwise is call all Israeli Arabs dumb.
JI7
(93,113 posts)because it meant they thought arabs couldn't live in a democracy or some other shit.
uppityperson
(115,992 posts)concert due to the sins of their fathers is unacceptable? And you call racism on that DUer?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)You have quite a facility for languages. Can you please repeat your previous post in Arabic and Hebrew? As an Israeli Arab you surely speak both and can do so effortlessly and quickly.
JI7
(93,113 posts)while posting a bunch of racist crap. but they were called out and banned.
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,778 posts)Bettie
(19,219 posts)Sorry. We all have those days.
frylock
(34,825 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Damn I heard an Israeli teen broke a fingernail. Now they are the same as the dead children of Gaza.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)As discussed above, I am an Israeli Arab. And since Hamas is firing such low tech, inaccurate missiles, we Arabs are as much the target as the Israeli Jews. Pardon me for not supporting Hamas bombing Arab civilian houses, in order to take one for the team.
Violet_Crumble
(36,379 posts)If yr Israeli Arab, yr Palestinian. Which makes me wonder if you are what you say you are, why yr totally supportive of Israel bombing the homes of Palestinians and in the process killing well over a thousand of them.
On the subject of artists refusing to play in Israel. Tough shit. There's quite a few in the past who have refused to play in Israel due to the occupation. Elvis Costello and the Pixies are among them. And while Pearl Jam have never played there or made any comment that they weren't going to, Eddie Vedder's anti-war comments that didn't specifically mention Israel was enough to send Israelis into a rage and the FaceBook page that had been set up to try to get them to play in Israel was changed to the equivalent of 'Fuck off, anti-semites! We never want you to play here!'
If yr so upset that some Israeli teen won't see Lana Del Rey, you should be out there with the other Israelis protesting what their government is doing to the people of Gaza.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)These rockets are very inaccurate. http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israels-army-prepared-ground-assault-gaza-official-275282816
Some Hamas rockets have even landed in Gaza. http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/rockets-hamas-gazaisraeliprmessaging.html
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)just like in boston when those bombers were out and about, everything closed down. And there were just 2 of them.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Shouldn't Hamas stop? They should stop firing rockets, yes. But that has nothing to do with some concert.
They should instead make a full on move to political action, and abandon violence like the Northern Irish did. And do their damndest to capture other militants who refuse to abandon violence and hand them over to be tried for their crimes.
Because the acts of violence they commit only give RW Israeli governments cover to continue to grind every Palestinian down.
Ahmed Aftab
(55 posts)You are right.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The people who fired the rockets or bullets or mortars that hit the people that died are to blame for the deaths.
Saying someone 'forced you' to kill someone else is a complete cop-out.
Hamas is responsible for killing 67 Israelis. (in this latest go round)
The IDF is responsible for killing 1700+ Palestinians.
What I actually said was that what Hamas does allows Israel to pretend Hamas is responsible for the Palestinian deaths. Not that they actually are.
The person who pulls the trigger is responsible, as well as the person who orders the trigger to be pulled. No matter what excuses anyone comes up with, no one else is ultimately responsible.
Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #71)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)You should KNOW that, being from Israel and all. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/neighbors-won-t-be-serving-1.171577
I can see why they may want to point the finger at Hamas to deflect from their own sins.
Response to bravenak (Reply #79)
Name removed Message auto-removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Where is your proof? I used an Israeli source as my proof of Israeli crimes. Be ashamed if you want to, but stop conflating Palestinian with Hamas. I would appreciate it.
They may have banned the practice, but they used it for years and now accuse others of doing it without any proof. And not IDF propaganda proof. I want witnesses from THIS conflict saying they were used as shields by Hamas. You know, tied to vehicles, used to open suspected bombs, real actual non forced accounts from actual Palestinian human shields. Just like the victims of the IDF. No propaganda.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The expansive new Israeli definition of 'used as human shields' is 'were in the vicinity of'.
Hamas fighter visits his family, and Israel bombs the entire building to kill him? Well, he was using the dozens of families in that building as 'human shields'.
Completely ignoring the fact that if Israel actually considered those people 'shields' of any kind, they wouldn't have fired a missile or lobbed a mortar. They were simply written off as collateral damage, instead, before the attack was even launched.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The more he talks, the more I'm sure he manipulated the situation and hands out rockets to Hamas' rivals to make them look bad. Just like they funded Hamas to make Fatah look bad. Anything to not make a deal for a viable state. Hamas denies firing rockets all the time. Since when do terrorist groups deny their handiwork on a regular basis? Terrorists love taking credit. It's what they do.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)If you, as a cop, shoot someone, you're responsible for shooting them. If the terrorist shoots a hostage, they're responsible. The person who physically shoots someone else is responsible for shooting them.
I'm not sure what country you live in, but here in America, we don't tell the cops it's fine to just bomb a school full of kids because a terrorist is hiding in there. We expect the cops to figure out how to get the guy without the cops actually shooting any bystanders or blowing up the building. And any bystanders who do get shot by cops (or their surviving family) are going to sue the cops if they do get shot.
If someone is a 'human shield', then you don't shoot them. Period, end of story. You don't simply shoot good people so you can get a chance to shoot bad people. If you do, congrats, you're now a bad person too.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)MIRT FFS please do something
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)A-Schwarzenegger
(15,778 posts)Response to LittleBlue (Reply #75)
Name removed Message auto-removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And finished up with Cocktails with Bibi.
Response to bravenak (Reply #70)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)Self declared winners always crack me up. Is this like Bush and his 'Mission Accomplished' banner? You won like he won, then?
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)This is one bizarre thread.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Then I figured that could not possibly be true. Now, I'm sure he's serious again. I feel punch drunk from this. A concert? I haven't gone to one in years. I'm okay. Really.
I personally would not send out such horrible PR people.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I have both laughed and cried reading this crazy thread.
Punch drunk indeed.
It's like some kind of performance art. Whew.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He won the debate already so, I guess he's done trolling us for a spell. Or, he's going to start another one up.
I will bookmark this one so i can get a good WTF when my day is going too well.
I'm shutting down and heading to bed. Have a good one.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think I'm done too. He abused me today.
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)regnaD kciN
(27,426 posts)RFKHumphreyObama
(15,164 posts)If it's not satire or trolling, I would be very surprised
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)of our bright new OP author.
Response to RFKHumphreyObama (Reply #77)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)I bet you're serious. You really think you've had yourself a 'drop the mic' moment. Oh, please do keep going. This is getting live!
You debate like Ray Comfort.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 9, 2014, 03:31 AM - Edit history (1)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)This man is not a real supporter of anybody. I blame no one for him.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)A-Schwarzenegger
(15,778 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Thanks you made my day. On that, I think I'm heading to bed.
You all have fun now.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)In before the pizza delivery.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Let's see what happens with that one.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And of course she'll and Israel will bow down to the mighty right wing Hamas militants.
I'm sure the concert will go on despite the power of the Mighty Hamas.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Promises to reschedule, etc.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I guess it went over my head.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)fujiyama
(15,185 posts)I'm going to assume that this a piece of brilliant absurd satire.
Oh! the humanity of not being able to attend a Lana Del Ray concert! I suppose, they can thank Hamas for sparing them of having to listen to del Rey!
I don't need a sarcasm sign do I?
akbacchus_BC
(5,827 posts)akbacchus_BC
(5,827 posts)there, and I had no idea that a person from the West had to go through Israel to attend a conference in Ramallah! That is pretty messed up. A country existed and when UNESCO recognised Palestine as a State for educational purposes, the US pulled its funding and so did Canada. Pretty messed up! So you take your little complaint and run along! Israel is blockading Palestine.
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,778 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)lol
Crunchy Frog
(28,208 posts)I guess it's never too early for Israeli kids to learn this sad lesson.