The imaginary victims of victimless crimes

[JJChambers]

I've noticed some people try to pidgeonhole their pet issues into real issues, by claiming that there are victims of victimless crimes. Like pornography. Or marijuana. Or prostitution.

There are peripheral crimes, surely, such as rapists being inspired by rape porn, people driving while impaired on marijuana, and human trafficking. But those issues are real crimes with real victims, separate from the victimless crimes being discussed.

This is a public service announcement.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. I think you're looking at life through blinders.

You want to focus on the things you want legal, and to simply ignore and dismiss all of the associated real problems that exist alongside them by calling them 'peripheral crimes' and pretending they don't have strong ties to the actual behaviours you call 'victimless'.

[kestrel91316]

30. My cannabis use has never harmed another person.

I grow my own. I don't drive under the influence. I don't let children in my home when it's being used.

You and your control freak friends can simply go suck an egg.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

63. You're not representative of the trade as a whole.

As you demonstrate, it is *possible* for an extremely responsible person to indulge in that particular 'crime' without harming others. The reality, though, is that most people aren't as responsible or careful as you are.

(And, btw, my reply was to the post as a whole, not just marijuana. I'm fine with decriminalization on marijuana if that's what people vote for.)

[4now]

2. We might try to focus on the real crimes

and the problems that are caused when you make an activity illegal.

[Kurska]

3. Prosecute rapists, human traffickers and impaired drivers to the full extent of the law.

And crack down hard, because all those crimes are horrific.

However, criminalizing porn, prostitution and marijuana helps no one.

[BainsBane]

4. Just so people know, the OP is talking about me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025346527

[JJChambers]

5. Well, you among many. I just liked your thread title and thought it would make my point succinctly.

[redqueen]

7. Instead of copycatting other people's titles, why not make up your own? nt

[JJChambers]

12. Changing one word of an existing thread title to make a point has a hallowed tradition here

Or haven't you noticed?

In any case, your suggestion is duly noted.

[redqueen]

19. In the lounge, or about jokey topics. When it has been used in threads regarding feminist issues....

there is a definite pattern.

People notice.

[JJChambers]

21. A woman's right to choose, to be free from puritanicals trying to outlaw her choices,

is definitely a feminist issue.

[redqueen]

24. You claiming to be concerned about feminist issues

is amusing as hell. In a sad, i-sure-do-miss-the-moderator-system kind of way.

[JJChambers]

27. Should a woman not be free to choose what to do with her own body?

Should two cosnenting adults not be free to do what they please in the privacy of a bedroom? Real feminists support a woman's right to choose, even when her choices don't mirror theirs.

[nomorenomore08]

61. Yes, she should. But we can still critique the social context in which said choices are made.

And I personally would argue in favor of greater protections for all workers, not just sex workers.

[BainsBane]

14. In other words, it's about the people who don't matter

children harassed and raped. The human trafficking that increases due to legalization--the very young women, girls, boys, and young children sold into slavery to satisfy the prurient sexual desires of entitled men who seek to purchase sex. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

We're collateral damage, like IDF bomb strikes that just accidentally kill hundreds of children, or those caught up in the environmental damage of high-pollution industries. That we think our lives matter is imaginary. We should understand all that counts is the "rights" of men of means to purchase sex and even own human beings.

[tea and oranges]

17. Wow

Wish I'd noticed this when it was current.

There's something I'd like to inject that's relevant to both posts. If prostitution was legalized, it wouldn't be like the same old shit happens all the time w/ pimps, heroin, beatings, & trafficking, but it's legal. I'm talking recent experience in state of WA w/ marijuana legalization. It took a long time to sort things, figure out a licensing system for both growers & sellers, zoning requirements for green shops (not near schools or playgrounds), taxing, you get the idea.

Certainly it would be the same, perhaps more stringent b/c std's, w/ prostitution. Yes, the chances for corruption are off charts, but that's no reason not to try something. Now that I mention it, that's the kind of prostitution that isn't prosecuted much at all, the selling of one's soul to the highest bidder.

BainsBane, I was harassed, too & offered money on the street, but omg, not until I was 16 when I had app't downtown, & took the bus.. I can't imagine the hell you went through enduring that as a child on a daily basis & I'm sorry that happened to you & that our species is such a piss-poor one. I'd really like to make you a cup of tea! You choose the herb.

[BainsBane]

54. People have a lot of theories about a Utopia that follows legalization

That is not borne out by the evidence in places where it has been legalized. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

Thank you for acknowledging my situation, and I'm sorry you faced similar harassment. I understand that people have different views on the subject, but to be told what happened to me is "imaginary' is incredibly cruel, which given the OP's previous comments to me, I can only assume was deliberate.

I don't know exactly what the solution is, but to be a just one it must focus on minimizing harm rather than further empowering the privileged. Minimizing harm is not possible if people ignore the reality of the sex trade.

As redqueen notes, the sex trade is not comparable to marijuana. People aren't things. And the violence and exploitation is not ancillary to prostitution but rather part of the sex trade as it actually exists, in places where it is legal or illegal.

[tea and oranges]

66. I read the article you linked to

but as my understanding of statistics & the language of statistics is limited (I did google some terms) I'm sure my take-away is flawed.

It does seem obvious that there are problems in quantification, from the authors' admission, but the gist is that legalization does little, if anything to deter trafficking, & in fact, increases demand for sexual services.

I concede that my knowledge on the topic is limited. That it is far more complex than I imagined, & I will refrain from promulgating my opinions, which are baseless, in the future.

Thank you, BainsBane.

[nomorenomore08]

6. WTF is "imaginary" about a woman who was propositioned for sex as a young child?

I don't even necessarily disagree with legalizing prostitution, but pretending that there's no real-world harm resulting from the sex trade is naive at best.

[redqueen]

8. Um. no. Those are real women being raped on porn sets.

Those are real women and children being trafficked to rent to sex buyers, as sex slaves.

This insistence on comparing the abuse of human beings to alcohol and cannabis is incredibly stupid and downright offensive.

[Kurska]

10. The rape is the problem, not porn. The trafficking is the problem, not prostitution in general.

And sometimes the first is fueled by the second being illegal, like drug violence in mexico and marijuana.

It is compared because it is the same stupid conflation tactic used by moral crusaders in other areas.

[redqueen]

11. Wrong. This is not complicated.

The violence in the drug trade is the result of criminal activity because it is illegal. It is nor violence against cannabis that is the peoblem.

Violence against women and children is an integral part of the sex trade, including porn, which is legal, and including areas where prostitution is legal.

[Kurska]

13. Why, because you say so?

Why does the sex trade need to be violent? Why can't you have safe and well policed brothels where are the girls are confirmed to not be the product of trafficking, are free to quit at any moment (especially mid session) and where any hint of violence toward the girls sends security guards streaming into the room? Are you seriously going to say that such a brothel is impossible? We have the technology to put men on the moon, but we can't make a safe brothel.

Bullshit.

Don't confuse what you would like to be true, with how things really are.

[redqueen]

15. Because reality exists. Apparently you prefer your imagination.

A very popular preference among those who defend the sex industry.

[Kurska]

16. Explain why the brothel I described is impossible.

I just laid out a system where prostitution can happen without violence.

Oh but you actually know damn well why the system I just laid out is "impossible" it is because of the draconian laws that YOU are currently defending. There is no immutable law of the universe that says you can't have a safe brothel, just stupid human ones.

Reality check, the people who keep violence in sex work is you and people like you, the defenders of prohibition.

[Kurska]

18. I doubt I'm ever getting an answer

LOL

[redqueen]

22. You have obviously read exactly jack shit about the reality that women and children suffer in

where prostitution is legal.

Your facile posts betray your vast ignorance about the topic.

Your belligerent demands to have information delivered to you are hardly indicative of someone who is actually interested in the topic. On the contrary, your 'educate me' tactic is transparent derailing.

Again, goodbye.

[Kurska]

25. Let me explain. We're having something called a debate.

Your premise was that prostitution is intrinsically linked to violence. That you can't have one without the other.

I laid out a reasonable model that had prostitution, sans the violence.

Now it is your turn to refute my model. Explain to me why what I just described (and in fact is well along the way to reality in a few brothels where prostitution is legal).

I'm waiting

[el_bryanto]

40. The commodification of the female body encourages men to think of women as property

Property who's feelings and emotions are irrelevant. While it is possible in some future generation that the sexual roles and politics will have become more sane to the point where the brothel you imagine could exist, it is unlikely to exist in the world as it is now.

And even if you get one brothel right now that operated as you say - does that really excuse the coercion and nastiness that would happen in the other brothels? How many abused woman are you willing to allow to enjoy the right to treat women like property?

Bryant

[Kurska]

52. I'm not interested in social control, frankly.

I find the idea of "we can't allow people to control their own bodies, because blah blah blah buzzwords" pretty intellectually unappealing.

I outlined a strategy for which the brothel could exist, frankly irregardless of even what the prevailing society around it looks like. Yet if the best counter to that is "society prevents it", you're right. Society prevents it through idiotic laws. Mostly fueled by the right wing freaks who are disgusted by a woman having control over her sexuality, with a righteous assist from a variety of useful idiots on the left.

[BainsBane]

58. What el bryanto described is social control

That is a key component of capitalism. The sex industry involves the control and ownership of other people's bodies: prostitution of underage boys and girls, children, and a slave trade that feeds the desires of predators.

Pretending this is about allowing a women controlling her own sexuality is absurd. At best prostitution is a job. It is not an expression of sexuality. Sex workers don't enjoy it. They do it due to economic privation.
At worst, prostitution is about owning other human beings. That allows no control over any part of a person's own life much less their sexuality. A 9, 10 or 12 year old turned out on the streets does not "control her sexuality." Men control it. Human traffickers control it.

That you have some theoretical notion of what prostitution might be in your capitalist never never land has nothing to do with the reality of the sex trade. Legalization has been shown to increase human trafficking--slavery. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

The solution lies in minimizing harm, but when people refuse to consider the lives of those caught up in the sex trade, of anyone but themselves, there is no way to create a solution that does anything but further exploitation.

[el_bryanto]

62. This is where we differ I suppose - in how much control a woman would actually have over her

sexuality and her body in the situation you describe. You suppose it would increase; I am pretty sure it would decrease.

Bryant

[Kurska]

67. So... you know better than them what they should do with their bodies?

Are you denying you're saying essentially that? A woman who wants to exchange sex for money ought not be allowed to.

[el_bryanto]

68. I'm saying that we live in a world in which women are treated as objects

Woman lack social and political power to protect themselves in many cases and in many areas. And that while the opportunity to pay for sex with no comittment is very appealing to a certain type of man, it's not likely to improve matters. You believe that women would have more freedom under these constraints, I believe they would have less, because the whole political system is geared up to treat them as second class citizens in many respects

Bryant

[JJChambers]

20. RealityTV for everyone to see!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathouse:_The_Series

[Kurska]

23. Nice try buddy, that doesn't fit with my worldview at all. Enjoy my ignore list!

[JJChambers]

26. The problem we have with this debate

Is that some folks here are approaching it from an entirely emotion-based position. It is hard to argue logically with someone whose position is purely emotional. Obviously rape and human trafficking are crimes with real victims. Those crimes need to be combated and purged from this Earth. But porn and prostitution can be healthy and safe Just like marijuana can be healthy and safe. These folks are more interested in saddling porn and prostitution with their emotional baggage than supporting victimless, consensual sexual encounters between adults.

[Kurska]

29. In many cases I don't even think it is emotional baggage.

There is this idea that men who buy sex need to be punished. They just won't tolerate it, because for whatever reason they find the idea toxic. Even if it is an entirely consensual exchange that is mutually beneficial to both parties, they simply will not allow something like that to exist.

This causes a desperate attempt to come up with a solution. Any solution, where this doesn't happen. Like people saying you should be able to sell sex, but not buy.

They pretend it makes any sense for the law to sanction the selling of something, but to criminalize the buying of it. Their primary concern isn't the well being of the people involved, that may be a secondary concern granted, but the primary concern is for their world view and morality to be enforced. Though they may care about the well being of the people, they are willing to advocate a patently inferior and less safe system so that their puritanical beliefs can be upheld.

By men or women, left or right, opposition to prostitution in my estimation is primarily driven by moralism.

[BainsBane]

72. Your estimation is a fabrication

People have told you what their concerns are. You refuse to deal with those arguments and insist on reducing our arguments to a simple-minded sound bite that you are capable of dealing with. That is all about you. No one else. At least now you're being honest that your singular concern is with the privileged men who buy sex.

BTW, the OP you agree with so completely here was PPR'd as a right-wing troll. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=310933&sub=trans
It's shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that someone concerned entirely with the privilege of the few over the human rights of the many is a right-winger. That is after all, the essence of what it means to be conservative. Unfortunately, the politics of narcissism has spread like a contagion beyond the right, and some people are eager to grab on to justifications for their lack of concern for anyone but themselves.

[Kurska]

73. Seriously what is the point of replying to nearly a month old post.

"At least now you're being honest that your singular concern is with the privileged men who buy sex. "

If you're just going to put words in someone's mouth?



But really, please point out the sentence where I said this.

[Inkfreak]

43. Jury results.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a sexist personal attack. Just because he doesn't say it directly to the woman he's talking about, that doesn't make it any less of a personal attack. Implying that women are irrational and overemotional whether because of "baggage" or not is sexist, it is a very old and tired sexist attack on women, and it has no place on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 9, 2014, 10:24 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Tiresome, every single time.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster is expressing an opinion that others may not like but not hide worthy
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh, hey! How you doing? I'm good. What's up? Oh, nothing..same ol BULLSHIT threads with a buncha bickering by supposed adults. Boo to ALL OF YOU! Boo. Booooooooooooo.

[Kurska]

46. Uh oh

[opiate69]

32. No.. because...

The religious right says so... (the mere idea of which, last I knew, was anathema to progressive, thinking peoples.... guess it is true ya learn something new every day)

[Kurska]

33. Strange times

Strange allies.

[opiate69]

34. Insert "bedfellows" pun at will

[Kurska]

35. +1

[BainsBane]

59. Because caring about slavery and child rape

Is an anathema to progressive thinking peoples? Is that your argument? The right opposes slavery. That must mean we should all get behind owning other human beings? The right opposes physical violence against women. That means we shouldn't care about it? The right doesn't like to see children sold into prostitution. So we should get behind it or ignore it? Is there any point at with human rights factor in? Or has liberalism come to be redefined here as rights vested exclusively in men of means? It certainly appears so from the arguments that dismiss the significance of the lives devastated as a result of the sex industry.

Since when are Chris Hedges and Noam Chomsky part of the religious right?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

64. Laugh. RWers USE prostitutes and porn far more often.

They only say they're against both, while paying for them left and right.

Legalization of prostitution is win-win for them. They get to engage in greater safety, and to shout more bible verses.

[zazen]

37. the "girls" are "free to quit at any moment?" "GIRLS"?!!?

"How things really are" is that you presume to speak for the supposed freedom of women while referring to brothels full of "girls."

You refer to technology to put "men" on the moon, so you're clearly able to refer to males as adults, and then you use the term "girls" twice in your justification of the legal sex trade as having nothing to do with women under 18.

Why do you need to infantilize grown women? Why do you assume that women who are sex workers are "girls" for the purposes of having their flesh purchased?

Why? Because purchasing their flesh requires that they be "girls." That's the whole point. They can't be fully agentic. That'd take the transgression, the kick out of it--knowing that they were fully subjectified humans capable of judging (and ridiculing) the pathetic sexuality of their johns as much as they are defined by their sexual use by men. No--they need to innocent enough to make their faux conquest exciting to pathetic men who can't find partners any other way, and innocent-seeming enough not to threaten said men's delusion that they themselves are sexually great performers.

[Kurska]

44. Oh my lord, individuals call grown men and women girls or even boys all the time.

Exhibit A.

Exhibit B

Come on, really? REALLY?. And for the record I 100% the legalization of prostitution where the prostitute is a male aswell. It isn't about genders, it is about human dignity and freedom.

[theHandpuppet]

47. Because the commodification of a woman's sexuality involves objectification

Objectification is a power game. Reducing women and children to commodities to be bought and sold doesn't make them safer. In fact, in countries where prostitution is legal there has been no reduction of violence, if at all, and trafficking has only increased. That's the reality, not the fantasy brothel-world of your imagination.

[Kurska]

49. Women AND men have the right commodify or objectify themselves if they decide to.

When did you start thinking you get veto power over how a woman uses her body? That is my question.

Ya know this reminds me of the perfect lyrics for this situation.

"A bitter debate and a feminine fate
Lie in tandem like two precious babes
While the former gets warmer, it's the latter that matters
Except on the nation's airwaves
And custodians of public opinion stay fat
After vainly discussing her rights
Lay hands off her body
It's not your ****ing life"

[theHandpuppet]

51. I answered the questions you posed in your post

Lacking a proper rebuttal to mine, do you think I would be put off by your bullying spittle? Not bloody likely.

[Kurska]

53. You're tell me that, I don't have a right to use my body to perform a sexual service for money.

I'm telling you you don't have the right.

You can give whatever justification you want for it, but at the end of the day that is what it comes down to.

[theHandpuppet]

55. Nope, that's not what I said

You wrote:
Why does the sex trade need to be violent? Why can't you have safe and well policed brothels where are the girls are confirmed to not be the product of trafficking, are free to quit at any moment (especially mid session) and where any hint of violence toward the girls sends security guards streaming into the room? Are you seriously going to say that such a brothel is impossible? We have the technology to put men on the moon, but we can't make a safe brothel.

Bullshit.

Don't confuse what you would like to be true, with how things really are.

And I responded, to the questions you posed:
Because the commodification of a woman's sexuality involves objectification
Objectification is a power game. Reducing women and children to commodities to be bought and sold doesn't make them safer. In fact, in countries where prostitution is legal there has been no reduction of violence, if at all, and trafficking has only increased. That's the reality, not the fantasy brothel-world of your imagination.


You will notice that I said nothing about anyone's right to do with their body what they will. I simply stated that in countries where prostitution is legal there has been no decrease in violence but an increase in trafficking, and proposed that this is because legalization does nothing to change the basic relationship between the commodity and the consumer.

Whatever else you think I said, you simply scripted yourself.

[kcr]

69. While we're at it, what about our right to work for less than minimum wage?

People should be free to choose the wages they receive for the work they perform. Bloody state getting their noses into it! Freedom!

[BainsBane]

60. She is talking about how things really are

in the sex industry. You seem to be imagining a Utopia of how you think they could be if only the laws of the free market were allowed to flourish.

Reality: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5361923

Your discussion is entirely theoretical, yet you accuse her of "wanting" violence against women to be true?

[mythology]

28. Given that in nations that legalize prostitution, there is a corresponding increase

in human trafficking, how does that make the victims imaginary? Or is it that you willfully refuse to see the connection? Much like refusing to acknowledge climate change, or that Obama was born in Hawaii not Kenya and that the Earth is more than 6,000 years old, you can deny the truth, but it's still true.

[Kurska]

31. One study, which I trust as much as the studies that said Marijuana was worse than alcohol.

When governments control the purse strings of research budgets, you can expect to find a lot of wacky results. I'm an academic researcher, so I've seen this first hand.

Eventually, good research wins out over bad.

[zazen]

41. and serious research on the harms of pornography can't make it past IRB

for the precise reason that the "control" condition, as well as any variation in it, causes harm to human subjects, and is recognized as such by IRB members across higher ed. "Good research" on a topic can't win out over bad if it's too harmful to be conducted in the first place.

[Kurska]

42. Everytime I hear someone talking about the "harms of pornography" on du

I have to do a double take to make sure I haven't' just wandered into a sunday sermon.

[theHandpuppet]

48. I could provide you with at least a dozen citations

All of which, I'm sure, you would dismiss because they don't fit the script for the fantasy brothel-world that exists only in the graphic novel of your mind.

[redqueen]

36. Some types of people deny the findings of evil government agencies, in favor of industry-backed

propaganda.

At least when it comes to certain kinds of industries.

[JJChambers]

38. Strawman

When marijuana is legalized, marijuana-related driving fatalities increases. Should prohibition continue, or should we fight the real crime with real victims? Prostitution should be legal. We should aggressively combat human trafficking. A properly regulated, legalized prostitution system, with state-sanctioned and licensed sex workers, would go a long way to reduce the instances of violence against women and sex slavery.

[TheSarcastinator]

45. what a bullshite false analogy

Prostitution and cannabis use are nowhere close to the same thing ethically and comparing them is incredibly deceptive.

Your need for self-justification is incredibly obvious.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

65. Why do you think he conflated the two in the OP?

So that he could try and get more cover for his real issue, which is legalizing prostitution.

And then he and Kurska completely minimize or even ignore the real crimes entwined with the prostitution trade and pretend they'll all magically disappear if you only just legalize prostitution.

They have a profound lack of understanding of the reality of human behaviour. Are there problems with illegal prostitution? Yes. But will they all just go away if you make it legal? No.

[theHandpuppet]

50. Research shows otherwise

But why bother with facts?

[JI7]

56. human beings(mostly women) shouldn't be compared to things like drugs, the right wing does it

with guns all the time.

[theHandpuppet]

57. Yep. It's called objectification

Reducing women's sexuality to a commodity.

[NYC_SKP]

70. "Pet Issues"? Well, seeing as you've had your posting privileges removed...

Allow me to add my own pet issue:

People who disrespect others' very real experiences by using terms like "pidgeonhole" and "pet issues".

Such people piss me off, I think they need to listen more and talk less, if at all.

You could have done this differently, but you didn't.

And now you're gone.

[BainsBane]

71. Thank you, NYC_Skp