We send tens of millions of dollars in aid to Ukraine, so they can deny relief supplies to others?

[another_liberal]

It is reported that officials of the Ukrainian government are saying it will be a week before the Russian relief supplies now waiting at the Russian border can enter Ukrainian territory. I wonder how many lives will have to be sacrificed so the our Kiev lackeys have enough time to get their bookwork in order? In this case that long a wait can well mean relief delayed is the same as relief denied.

Kiev: Russia's humanitarian convoy will not be allowed into Ukraine

Kiev intends to hold up the internationally-supervised Russian humanitarian aid convoy meant for the Ukraine's east for at least a week, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military said.

Ukraine said the time is needed for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which is contributing to the Moscow-initiated mission, to establish where the aid should go in the Ukrainian region engulfed by civil war.

However, Russia’s Emergencies Ministry spokesman, Aleksandr Dobryshevsky, said that the destination for the Russian humanitarian aid will be determined jointly by Moscow’s representatives, the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Ukrainian government.

The convoy of 280 trucks dispatched on Tuesday “did not pass the ICRC certification,” Andrey Lysenko said.

Presidential aide Valery Chaliy said Kiev wants the entire cargo to be unloaded on the border and transferred to Red Cross vehicles. “We will not allow any escort of the Russian Emergencies Ministry or Russian military,” he said. “Ukraine will take responsibility for this procedure.”

(snip)

Read more, and view videos, at: http://rt.com/news/179740-humanitarian-aid-russia-ukraine/

[malaise]

1. Only the West will decide what is humanitarian

and who gets food and water. If it's not sanctioned by the corrupt Western Red Cross, you get none. Ah well.
Don't you love this planet?
By the way I posted a link on this from the Guardian on another thread.

Notice how quickly they've moved on from flight MH17.

[another_liberal]

2. I have started to notice that latter development as well . . .

Too much evidence about to come out which implicates the Ukrainian military is my guess.

Thanks for giving us that link.

[joeybee12]

3. Hey Mods, can we get the unrec button back?

We need it for disreputable news sources like Fox Noise and the RT...can't decide which one lies more.

[malaise]

4. Ignore this link as well

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/russian-aid-convoy-ukraine-red-cross

[another_liberal]

5. The rules say you are not to use GD to complain about the Democratic Underground.

Since that is clearly what you are doing, you should self-delete your comment. Thanks.

[joeybee12]

6. I'm not complaining about DU, I'm making a request...

I'm complaining about the article you posted and its source, comprende?

[another_liberal]

8. Here on GD is not the place to make such a request . . .

And you really should self-delete your reply #3.

The Rules are the rules, even for ourselves.

[joeybee12]

9. No, I won't...I'll just put you on ignore

You clearly don't understand the rules and you clearly are mis-reading what I wrote...both times...I should have put you on ignore a long time ago...well, better late than never! Adios!

[snooper2]

42. Yo Mods, I agree, unrec would be cool for the sole reason of OPs that link to the idiocy that is RT

no complaining-

just saying!


Now, to make this thread worthwile to exist in the world of the intertubes, I bring you-

MAGA OREO!

[another_liberal]

51. Censorship is always self-defeating . . .

Just saying.

[Codeine]

54. Your buddy Vlad believes otherwise. nt

[another_liberal]

56. I don't know the man . . .

And you, I'm fairly certain, do not know me either.

[SidDithers]

48. No, the rules say you're not supposed to start threads to complain about DU...

Complaining about DU within a thread is allowed as long as a jury says it's allowed.

The rules also say No Conspiracy Theories, but you don't seem as worried about that rule, given the amount of RT nonsense you've littered GD with lately.

Sid

[another_liberal]

50. I quote news stories and draw conclusions based on their content . . .

You should try that sometime. It might open up a whole new realm of interaction.

[NickB79]

57. Anything coming out of RT is "news", not news

Just like Fox reports "news".

[another_liberal]

66. Nope, not at all the same . . .

Not even close.

[DeSwiss]

31. How pathetic. n/t

[SidDithers]

49. Nailed it...nt

Sid

[MattSh]

68. Advocating censorship?

Think I'll rec this thread then...

[TwilightGardener]

7. Why is it wrong for a third party (one who specializes in international relief)

to bring the aid to those who need it? Why would Russia balk at that? Unless they're trying to smuggle in weapons, ammo, soldiers. Or they want to delay Ukraine from finally choking the rebels into surrender. Or they want some kind of big credit/propaganda coup for the aid.

[another_liberal]

11. Lets not be naive . . .

If the Ukrainian government once gets their hands on those relief supplies, no one in Donetsk or Lugansk is ever going to see a single box. Should the Ukrainians take control of delivery, Russian might as well burn it all at the border for all the good it would do anyone it's meant to help.

[TwilightGardener]

13. Again, Red Cross can oversee delivery. End of story, case closed.

[another_liberal]

14. Yeah, in a week or so . . .

That's a minimum, I'm sure, and likely to be extended if necessary to achieve "Total Victory!"

[TwilightGardener]

16. Actually, if the separatists surrender today, all sorts of things will

improve for these folks.

[another_liberal]

19. If you truly believe surrender would "improve" things for the separatists . . .

I have a piece of property to sell you, infrastructure actually. It spans the East River and links Manhattan with Brooklyn. You'll want to act right away. There are several others who seem to be the kind who'll be eager to buy as well.

[TwilightGardener]

20. All ginned up by Russia. And then Russia offers "aid". What a fucking joke.

[another_liberal]

23. Your opinion . . .

I strongly disagree.

[Fred Sanders]

10. The mask is slipping off the Ukrainian fascists that took over the elected government.

Why did they advance towards the airplane crash site, endangering everything, not even a whisper in the media about that I see....as intended.

[Codeine]

12. Seems easy enough for Russia

to transfer the aid to Red Cross vehicles. Why on earth would Ukraine let Russia - with whom they're in a state of conflict - into their territory?

[another_liberal]

15. In a sate of what?

When was war declared?

It's certainly news to me!

[LanternWaste]

18. Conflict is not necessarily the equivalent of war, much as Russia never declared war on the Crimea w

Conflict is not necessarily the equivalent of war, much as Russia never declared war on the Crimea when it was annexed.


But yeah... that may of course, certainly be news to you.

[another_liberal]

21. So they aren't at war after all? Good!

But then why again is Ukraine blocking this much needed relief for at least a week?

[LanternWaste]

24. Again, war and conflict are not necessarily the same thing

Again, war and conflict are not necessarily the same thing, and are regarded as separate concepts both diplomatically and pragmatically-- regardless of the rationalizations you make otherwise...

One may be in a state of conflict (hot, cold or in-between) with a nation with which you are not at war.


"again is Ukraine blocking this much needed relief for at least a week?"
One may imagine that should the two nations be in conflict, the aid may be something other than aid...

[another_liberal]

26. Seriously . . .

I doubt if that rather fine distinction is going to matter much to people suffering from hunger and thirst in Donetsk and Lugansk.

Supporting Kiev in this brutal standoff is to our government's lasting shame.

[LanternWaste]

27. Enabling Moscow is yours...

"Supporting Kiev in this brutal standoff is to our government's lasting shame..."

Enabling Moscow is yours...

[another_liberal]

43. I speak my mind against stupid policies, even if they those of my government . . .

I don't enable anyone.

I will continue to oppose the military hubris that is destroying my country from inside. That is my right and my duty as a loyal American patriot.

Buy into the frenzy and support our latest little wars, if that is your choice. Cheer for our dropping more and more bombs if you want to, just don't forget that you asked for what comes next.

[Igel]

44. Novosti Donbasa and Novorossiya agree

http://novorossia.su/ru/node/5100
В Донецке нет продовольственного кризиса
There is no food crisis in Donetsk.

Lavrov says there is. But local media, the Donetsk DPR "soviet", Antyufeev, and others say otherwise. Lavrov says a lot that isn't.


Now, Luhans'k ... They have problems that they really don't need to have and many could go away. But the LPR's backed itself into a bit of a corner. What gets through is for the fighters.

And there are other places that are having problems with provisions if you listen to the same kinds of people that say Donets'k has no crisis. But they're not "capitals" and not "surrounded" so, you know, nobody really cares about them. They also managed to get fresh supplies of arms and fighters from across the border so a KamAZ full of canned tushenka shouldn't be a problem.

BTW, Luhans'k is, however, also running low on natural gas. http://informator.lg.ua/?p=21010
It says there were a couple of weeks supply, but some areas are already being disconnected. So all that flour and oats or buckwheat being shipped there might not be all that useful.


As for whether fine distinctions matter, they wouldn't because they wouldn't be presented. The one good thing about the absence of electricity is that it becomes hard to watch Russian news channels. They do things like rant about a 50+ Swede volunteering for the Ukrainians but also glory in having an assault on Ilovaisk repelled by hundreds of Serb chetniki--fascists for a Greater Serbia. (Then again, Girkin's now being investigated in Bosnia for war crimes. The chetniki, his old-time friends from then, rather liked killing Muslims and celebrated previous massacres of Muslims during WWII when the Serb chetniki were partnered with Hitler. Doing the exact same kind of thing that the most extreme and hateful of the "Banderites" did, and for the same reason. Except the Serbs did not make the fatal mistake that gets them dubbed "fascist": They may have killed Communists, but they never fought the "Russian" Red Army.)

[Codeine]

32. Because Russia is a clearly hostile neighbor

and it would be straight-up idiotic to allow them open access the the rebel forces.

Why exactly do you oppose a third-party solution to moving the aid to territory held by the Russian-backed insurgency?

[Codeine]

30. Did I say war? Did I use the term war

anywhere in my post?

Didn't think so. Nice try.

[kelliekat44]

17. I don't think they are denying the aid, just the access to crossing inside. I heard on the radio

that meetings were taking place to set up the distribution system inside Ukraine.

[another_liberal]

22. If Kiev is in charge . . .

Supplies will never get to anyone who is in need. They want to starve out the defenders of Donetsk and Lugansk.

[LanternWaste]

25. Creative allegation.

Creative allegation.

[another_liberal]

28. In my opinion . . .

Fascists don't stop acting like fascists long enough to deliver relief supplies. The Ukrainians are as likely to let those supplies get to Donetsk and Lugansk as they are to sprout wings and fly around like gulls.

At minimum, the defenders would have to surrender first, then they might get some of the supplies.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. All nations have a right to control their borders. It is a basic element of being a nation.

This is why organizations like the Red Cross and Red Crescent exist. Just let them do their job and all is well.
What is being reported on Earth is that the Red Cross will supervise, Ukraine will allow the goods to be delivered, if the point is to deliver the goods, then there is no issue.

[another_liberal]

34. So, to hell with people suffering for want of water and food . . .

The sacrosanct and holy border of Ukraine has to be minutely respected in all matters whatsoever. If people die of hunger and thirst in the mean time, it must have been the almighty border's will that be so. Right?

[Codeine]

36. There's a third choice.

Let the aid agency deliver the aid.

[another_liberal]

37. But only after another week, at least, has passed?

That is according to officials in Kiev.

Might seem like kind of a long time to go without water or food, but who cares about that, right? The important thing is to not let any of those nasty Russian relief workers and civilian teamsters transit Ukrainian territory, right?

[NickB79]

60. According to unnamed officials in Kiev per RT

And we all know RT wouldn't LIE or anything, right?

[another_liberal]

73. Seen the latest reports?

Kiev has officially rejected the convoy carrying aid. It will not be allowed to cross the border from Russia:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/13/ukraine-accuses-russiaofcynicismoverconvoydeathtollrisessharply.html

[Bluenorthwest]

41. How rude you are. I said this: This is why organizations like the Red Cross and Red Crescent exist.

Let them do their job and all is well, supplies delivered. How do you think you can translate that as 'to hell with people suffering' and be thought of as a reasonable person. Spare me your histrionics. And don't put words in my mouth. That is unacceptable.

[DeSwiss]

33. All while they bombard a chemical plant......

...endangering the lives of hundreds if not more people in the area who can't leave.

- The world is ruled by jackasses.

K&R

[font color=red]
On edit: RT reports the convoy is moving:[/font]

[another_liberal]

35. Thank you for mentioning that . . .

These are the people we are supposed to believe will see that relief supplies will get to the surrounded civilians?

[pampango]

38. You really don't think the Red Cross has the expertise to get the aid to the people who need it?

Aid go into people in cities in Syria that were blockaded by a much stronger army than Ukraine has. That assumes that the government in Kiev would attempt to block Red Cross convoys of aid, as happened in Syria.

[DeSwiss]

39. The convoy is moving in. n/t

[another_liberal]

47. Yes, I just saw that reported . . .

Kiev dropped its demands for the supplies to be unloaded, searched and reloaded onto different trucks. They also agree that just a few Ukrainian representatives would need to accompany the convoys, instead of their initial insistence that they would take complete control of them.

This appears to be one of those rare moments when Poroshenko's government has shown a willingness to compromise. Lets hope it is the beginning of a trend toward greater sanity and humanity in those circles.

[another_liberal]

46. The International Red Cross is a wonderful institution . . .

It's Kiev's fascist militia units I'm more worried about. The Red Cross should be worried about them as well.

[NickB79]

62. Yet it's the Russians that balked at letting the Red Cross inspect the trucks

Weird, eh?

[NCTraveler]

40. Highly inaccurate title in the op. nt.

[Igel]

45. And not just the title. n/t

[another_liberal]

53. Meaning . . .

What?

[another_liberal]

52. Your opinion . . .

I think it's right on point. At least it was when I posted the OP.

[NCTraveler]

69. If you mean the op, then yes.

Once again, highly inaccurate subject line. It was when you posted it and it is now. No matter how many times it has been pointed out you don't seem to care. That is what happens when one has an agenda and then attempts to find stories to meet their agenda. It is unfortunately the way outlets like rt and Fox work.

[another_liberal]

70. Your opinion . . .

Others may not agree, but you are entitled to it.

[NickB79]

55. Hey look, it's another RT exclusive!

There's a reason RT isn't allowed in LBN as a source, ya know.

[another_liberal]

59. Yeah, I think I do know why . . .

Isn't it called something like, "institutionalized bias," or maybe just, "gratuitous censorship?"

It's something like that. I'm pretty sure it is anyway.

[NickB79]

61. Well, there is definitely an institutional bias when it comes to dealing with RT

The "institute" that runs RT is the Kremlin, and they inject their bias into whatever RT tells them to say.

And they are very gratuitous in whatever they tell RT to censor from reporting on.

See how easy that is?

[another_liberal]

65. Don't try to change the subject . . .

You know I'm telling the truth.

[Codeine]

58. Looks like the fascist Ukrainian regime shot down

your story!

[another_liberal]

63. If you are refering to their finally saying they will allow the relief supplies in . . .

That is a recent development. It was not yet their policy when I posted this OP.

At any rate, when dealing with this Ukrainian government it is better to wait and see if they really do what they say they will. As the numerous "ceasefires" they announced that never actually went into effect testify, their track record in that regard is anything but stellar.

[Codeine]

64. Interesting. This story says the convoy has 280 trucks

but now the convoy has 198 trucks in it.

Hmmm . . . wonder what those other trucks had in them?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/280-russian-aid-trucks-depart-for-ukraines-eastern-conflict-zones/2014/08/12/be9d7a92-5e5b-484c-8297-d13061b780c3_story.html

[LeftyMom]

67. Excellent catch. But we all know math is a CIA plot. nt

[another_liberal]

72. Might mean something . . .

But it might mean nothing at all.

"It matters who does the counting."

[another_liberal]

74. Have you noticed this?

Kiev has officially rejected the convoy carrying aid. It will not be allowed to cross the border from Russia:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/13/ukraine-accuses-russiaofcynicismoverconvoydeathtollrisessharply.html



Told you so.

[bigwillq]

71. The USA needs to stop all aid

We can't even save our own country, yet we want to save everyone else. SMH.

STOP THE AID, NOW!
SAVE AMERICA!