Dear Christian-bashers, here's a big fat target for you:

[mistertrickster]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by maddezmom (a host of the General Discussion forum).

First, how do we know it's open season on the Christian faith community around here? A quick gander of recent posts . . .

You do NOT get to make the name of your own superstition mean "good person" because doing so screams that those who do not share it are bad people - and all the disingenuous BS in the world will not change that loathsome lie.

I think "Christians" are probably the most harmful entities on this planet right now. No single group has caused more bloodshed and harm to the living beings on this planet.

I don't bash individual Christians. I bash the idea of Christianity which very much does need to be bashed. With a few exceptions, that's what I see the majority of athiests on DU doing. If it bothers you so that your religion is being bashed, and you take that as a personal affront from all athiests on DU, perhaps your belief is not nearly as strong as you thought.

Christianity can be used to justify many different and contradictory conclusions which makes it pretty much worthless as any kind of standard to live up to.

I am convinced that religious belief is delusional at best, and a variety of mental illness at worst. Folks displaying those characteristics are hard to support for leadership positions outside the asylum.

I don't even believe he <God>exists, but instead is a made up myth used by groups over the centuries to control people and politics. If that makes me a god-hater I will wear that badge proudly.

I believe everyone has a right to believe in anything they want. I also believe people have a right to say they think those beliefs are dangerous, absurd or ridiculous.

Get your religion out of my government or get another Religion.

Want Your Ideas Respected, Sir? Get Better Ideas....

Religious people want their ridiculous beliefs placed off limits. Why? Too embarrassing to have to defend them?

I ridicule the ridiculous. I care little who or how many decided to make it the central focus of their life.

I hope I have refuted the "Christians aren't demeaned here" BS before it has a chance to choke off the real discussion which is . . .

If you don't like Christians, you have a major problem with this guy--



<Obama> gave a sermon, telling the story of Christ in the garden of Gethsemane and his eventual crucifixion, a sacrifice that "puts in perspective our small problems relative to the big problems he was dealing with."

Few presidents have spoken about their religious faith as often, as deeply or as eloquently as Obama. "We worship an awesome God in the blue states," he declared at the 2004 Democratic convention, and he has sought since then to rebuild ties between the Democratic Party and the world of faith.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/53880678-80/obama-faith-religious-president.html.csp

Obama from a 2006 speech on religion and politics:

At worst, there are some liberals who dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith.

. . . over the long haul, I think we make a mistake when we fail to acknowledge the power of faith in people's lives -- in the lives of the American people -- and I think it's time that we join a serious debate about how to reconcile faith with our modern, pluralistic democracy.

And if we're going to do that then we first need to understand that Americans are a religious people. 90 percent of us believe in God, 70 percent affiliate themselves with an organized religion, 38 percent call themselves committed Christians . . .

I speak with some experience on this matter. I was not raised in a particularly religious household, as undoubtedly many in the audience were . . . It wasn't until after college, when I went to Chicago to work as a community organizer for a group of Christian churches, that I confronted my own spiritual dilemma.

It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith . . .

http://usliberals.about.com/od/faithinpubliclife/a/ObamaReligion.htm

[cthulu2016]

1. belongs in help and meta

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. No it doesn't.

[cthulu2016]

6. Whatever

If this isn't "whining about DU" what possibly could be?

[Electric Monk]

59. They already tried that yesterday, and it was a massive failure

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=73037

and, to the OP: read Matthew 6:5-6

[Union Scribe]

150. Is the OP praying?

I know that's DU's pet scripture or whatever, but you could at least apply it (sort of) properly. Shit.

[Humanist_Activist]

3. Ehh...

I have to say, as someone who is not a Christian, it’s hard for me to believe Christians are a persecuted people in America. God willing, maybe one of you one day will even rise up and get to be president of this country — or maybe forty-four in a row. But that’s my point, is they’ve taken this idea of no establishment as persecution, because they feel entitled, not to equal status, but to greater status.

-- Jon Stewart

[The Straight Story]

12. The Passion of the New Atheists?

http://www.eesti.ca/?op=article&articleid=35907

"Something about this atheist victimology doesn’t add up. Actually, a lot about it doesn’t add up, not least the fact that, although there is certainly cultural hostility towards atheists in parts of America, elsewhere, particularly in academia, publishing and throughout the political and media worlds of Western Europe, they enjoy untouchable ‘darling’ status these days, being fawned over like never before. There are no legislative restrictions on atheists’ rights or apartheid systems that separate them from the God-fearing, which means their claims to be following in the footsteps of protesting blacks are not only unfounded, but also pretty depraved. But one thing in particular about these atheist shindigs is weird: if these gatherings really are about challenging persecution, then why do they promote persecution – of Christians?"

[Humanist_Activist]

17. Wow, do you compare the plight of Jews like Stewart the same way?

who the fuck is this douchebag you are linking to anyways?

[The Straight Story]

33. Just someone who would probably fit in well here

attacking others, making broad brush statements, feeling superior (whether on art or philosophies), telling people they are not 'persecuted' for some reason or other (try being a Christian on a site like DU and having your ideals/beliefs trashed openly in what we try to call a 'big tent').

Funny how it is - someone posts something that could be seen as negative to an atheist/humanist/etc and suddenly it is not about being open minded and looking for answers but about someone being a 'douchebag'.

As far as the plight of the Jews - many others have been hounded and discriminated against as well. Killed for their ideals and beliefs (as many early Christians were). Gays, women, Druids, American Indians, Christians, and so on.

My problem here is with how we define 'Hate Speech'. On the one hand we decry it when it is against X because it invokes hatred towards a group and can lead to hateful actions against said group. But on the other hand some endorse it towards others.

It gets confusing after awhile trying to keep up with it all.

I guess 'hate' speech is accepted and OK when it comes to some groups and people because folks don't really buy into the principles of what they say (much like, as I have said many times before, folks don't really believe in 'your body/your choice' except when it comes to abortion and birth control).

[Humanist_Activist]

41. So now not showing deference to Christians is hate speech?

Again, where is this mysterious Christian Bashing that occurs regularly?

[SidDithers]

32. Brendan O'Neill?...

Wow. That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Sid

[peacebird]

4. I don't bash real Christians, my mom is one. I do bash intolerant zealots who use Christianity as an

excuse for their homophobic/xenophobic/racist/ sexist beliefs and tendencies.

[RKP5637]

24. Same here, those that operate under the cloak of religion with their

hateful cults of evil, the intolerant zealots, to promote their agenda. Religion has always been a WTF to me. I left religion decades ago and never looked back, and better for it IMO.

[Humanist_Activist]

52. Define a real Christian, I take them at their words...

A Christian can be kind or cruel, selfless or selfish, hateful or full of love. From what I can tell, the religion does little to either encourage or discourage much of this.

[hobbit709]

162. i take them by their deeds.

[Union Scribe]

5. Funny factoid

On DU2, I read several posts suggesting that Obama was lying about his religious beliefs (yep, just like the RWers, only for a different reason) because he was too "smart" to really be a person of faith.

[mistertrickster]

9. Classic! nt

[sadbear]

10. I subscribe to that.

And I also believe that "Christians" hate atheists A LOT more than atheists hate "Christians."

[mistertrickster]

13. Really. I haven't seen those posts. Here. nt

[sadbear]

14. What, are we limiting reality to DU posts only?

I apologize. No one informed me.

[deucemagnet]

166. Apparently you can't state you believe something without providing evidence.

Not hypocritical at all.

[Union Scribe]

16. Lol.

There you go, folks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. Here's a good one from DU3

"I have a feeling he's merely pandering to the idiots in the country who can't imagine having a president who isn't religious."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=510666

[Union Scribe]

111. The conspiracy lives on!

Posts like that should get sent to Creative Speculation, lol.

[Fumesucker]

7. Christianity has become part of big politics in the USA..

What you are seeing is a backlash against the politicization of a certain religion.

Even Andrew Sullivan can see it, why can't you?

[Chemisse]

161. That's exactly it. Not that it is right or fair to attack someone's beliefs, but that is why.

[Humanist_Activist]

8. Oh, and I do have a problem with Obama on the Office of faith based initiatives...

or as I call it, taxpayer supported discrimination.

I would prefer he shut up about religion in politics or even in his own policies, it doesn't belong in government, period.

[mistertrickster]

11. I have a problem with his faith-based initiative too actually.

He should have shut that Bush BS down ASAP.

Instead he put some Pentecostal in charge of it, as if that would make the Religious Fundies like him . . .

[Humanist_Activist]

19. I think the point is this, you equate not showing deference for your religious beliefs with...

"Christian-bashing". I do apologize I'm not a "good Christian" like you, but a word of advise, grow a thicker skin.

[mistertrickster]

34. Not showing deference =

attacking them every chance you get.

The fact is that this is a discussion board for LIBERALS, not atheists.

We're supposed to be working toward a more liberal America--which used to mean "embracing diversity."

And diversity IS embraced here, as long as you're not Christian. Then you are a walking target.

[Humanist_Activist]

46. Not showing deference is attacking beliefs and ideas, particularly bad and foolish...

beliefs and ideas, the fact that you have difficulty distinguishing that from attacking people is your problem, not mine.

[TalkingDog]

159. Just one question: Why is it wrong (or even your business) if people have bad and foolish beliefs

and ideas?

Are you their "Thought Daddy", correcting them as you would children?

Who cares if they believe some old bearded Jewish guy who lives in the sky and can hear them whispering to themselves at night and will grant them their wishes like some fairy dust mensch?

Is your life so pitiful that you need to pick on people who you feel are "delusional" or even simply misguided? I mean, what sort of person decides that a whole group of people are deluded, ignorant, child-like, magical thinking, and perhaps even mentally defective and then is inhumane enough to badger them because they are all those things?

Doesn't that make you a bully?

[deucemagnet]

169. Because your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

Think or believe anything you want, but when your belief system is so pervasive that it negatively impacts my government, the society I live in, and my life, expect to hear about it.

As far as bullying goes, why don't you ask the DU LGBT community or feminists group if they think Christianity is bullied. I think they can give you a better answer than I can.

[neverforget]

15. Keep the religion out of politics/government and everything will be fine.

[Honeycombe8]

20. I haven't seen those particular posts, but yeah, Christianity is a particular target here

and elsewhere. The Democratic Party includes atheists, agnostics, religions other than Christianity, more so than the other party, so I guess some of those people get carried away.

Point well taken. It is perfectly okay to be any religion, or none, in the Democratic Party.

[Luminous Animal]

21. Jesus. So now atheists and agnostics and etc. have to embrace Christian doctrine because

Obama is a Christian?

If Obama was an atheist (hahahahaha), would that mean we'd all have to embrace atheism?

[Humanist_Activist]

26. That's exactly it, we must convert, or shut up...

I guess its better than convert or die.

[mistertrickster]

31. You don't have to shut up . . .

you just don't have to ridicule the faith community.

Just like they don't ridicule you.

In other words, stop being bullies.

[provis99]

35. Christians don't ridicule atheists? Well, thank Jeebus for that!

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. Show me where DU's people of faith have ridiculed ONE atheist.

I haven't seen it.

[sadbear]

44. See post #14.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. Well this IS DU after all.

I have no idea what atheists are subjected to outside of this screen... I've never heard any of my friends bring the subject up.

[Union Scribe]

110. Justifying bad behavior on DU

because of shitty comments somewhere else is a wee bit hollow to me. It's like screaming at a taxi driver because a barista got your coffee wrong.

[Humanist_Activist]

117. Its not ridicule, but the OP threatened to kick my ass. n/t

Self deleted post below.

[Hugabear]

73. How about Creationists, or those who use religion to deny equal rights?

Can we ridicule someone if they want public schools to teach that the universe is 6000 years old?

Or how about those who use religion to base their anti-woman, anti-LGBT, anti-minority beliefs?

Or should we embrace ALL of these beliefs?

[mistertrickster]

75. If they're voting liberal Democrat,

we need them.

They're on our side.

Feel free to take on this issue somewhere called ReligionUnderground.

[Humanist_Activist]

77. Really? Even though they may work to undermine some political goal?

Or undermine education?

As long as they vote for Democrats, that makes it all ok?

[RainDog]

97. wow

so you think people should shut up about evolution because some people who vote for Democrats hold a religious belief in creationism?

that's fucked up.

[Marrah_G]

143. The poster has said alot of questionable things in recent days

[RainDog]

146. it's pretty interesting how morally void such a pov really is

don't talk about reality because it might offend some people who vote for democrats.

not to mention talking about beating up someone who has reasonable arguments against the OP's position, followed by an attempt to insult the same person.

those christian values make me want to throw up.

[Tom Ripley]

144. I dream of the day of ReligionUnderground. Far, far underground.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. More Lions.

[mistertrickster]

27. Yup, that's exactly what I wrote . . .

Because Obama is a Christian, all liberals must become Christian.

You can quote me on that.

<heavy sarcasm>

On edit: when you don't want to admit the point--which is the atheists are bully-ragging the Christian community unmercifully around here--you can pretend that really YOU'RE the ones getting imposed upon.

Unbelievable.

[xfundy]

91. I will presume for most here

That we don't care what you want so desperately to believe, we're just tired of hearing about it, and sick of having it "forced down our throats" --maybe not by you, yourself, but by your fellow believers.

No one is questioning your right to believe whatever you want, but you must realize that when any of us here has a sour word for Christianity, in all its contradictory forms, it's not necessarily a PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU.

If you get attacked, USE THE ALERT BUTTON.

May I suggest you get down off the cross now? The kids want to build something else for a change.

REPORT THIS IF I AM ATTACKING YOU, please. Otherwise, why not just go somewhere no one will question your chosen... yes, CHOSEN LIFESTYLE. I'm sick of hearing how "offended" some are when faced with reality.

[Politicalboi]

22. I think Obama could be an Atheist

But to be President in this loony country, you have to "belong" to a religion. And for some of us, we had to deal with going to church when we didn't want too. Those are memories that we cannot delete from our memory. They buy kids with Christmas and Easter, and preach hate about homosexuals, and the bible stories defy science. 7 days my ass.

[mistertrickster]

25. Right, don't believe what he says.

Believe what you want to believe.

Who's being "irrational and unscientific" now?

And most mainstream churches don't preach hate against homosexuals. Take for instance the Episcopal Church that ordained a gay bishop.

[Politicalboi]

36. I said could be

Do you think if he were an Atheist he would tell us? I can hope he is, and that is all. I don't feel the need to go to church ever. The Catholic church I went too had it's share of pedophiles, and hate speech. The last time I went there was sometime in 1978. At that time they were protesting a new show on ABC called SOAP. Because they had a priest that wanted to get married, and of course a gay character.

[mistertrickster]

51. Don't judge Christians by the Roman Church.

Dante put a bunch of dead Popes in Hell.

[provis99]

66. No True Scotsman.

[provis99]

39. so bashing churches who are against homosexuals is ok by you?

I see; it is only when YOUR religious ideas are criticized, that criticism is invalid.

[mistertrickster]

53. Fighting against PEOPLE who bash gays is proper and correct.

Saying that their Christian faith causes them to bash gays is like saying that Islam causes Muslims to fly planes into tall buildings.

[Humanist_Activist]

60. Technically both statements are accurate, why is it wrong to point it out? n/t

[provis99]

68. he's just making the old No True Scotsman argument.

[Humanist_Activist]

69. True, I guess when you try to weld your secular morality to thousands of year old texts, it gets...

messy. Cognitive dissonance reigns.

[mistertrickster]

76. I didn't post the cartoon ridiculing my belief in Easter.

If you people would stop bashing Christians, we wouldn't have to defend our beliefs, would we.

[Humanist_Activist]

93. This is over a cartoon? Why not go out and riot?

Others have done the same for less.

[Union Scribe]

113. Sounds like you're taking that on faith. nt.

[Tom Ripley]

23. "No true Sc... ya know the rest"

[dmallind]

28. Oh dear. It must be awful to be the least accepted, trusted and welcomed Americans

http://www.soc.umn.edu/~hartmann/files/atheist%20as%20the%20other.pdf

But gosh those pesky atheists are just so MEAN questioning your special privilege and unchallenged hegemony in the real world by asking you to back up claims on DU and pointing out the utter shite of using "christian" to mean "good person".

Mighty erm...white of you to understand that. That's ok isn't it? To assume an unrelated characteristic can be a synonym for moral and honest? Isn't it?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

29. and when thou prayest...

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Just sayin

[sylvi]

148. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,

him will I confess also before my Father who is in heaven.

[got root]

30. everyone is entitled to their opinion, and non-believers shouldn't be expected to not express theirs

just because it isn't aligned with yours.

especially when it comes to the issue of the separation of church and state, one of the pillars of our system of government.

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. I totally agree with your opening statement.

However, there seems to be a kind of hateful ridicule (atheists --> christians/people of faith) that I don't see going the other way. I honestly have NOT seen any ridicule whatsoever directed at atheists here at DU.

Go back and read the OP's italicized text and tell me if you see things like that written about atheists. Or maybe you could even point me to some.

[sadbear]

40. Is this how white people are supposed to feel when black people ridicule them?

[mistertrickster]

43. The black people who are overwhelmingly Christian? (at least in the US) nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

45. I wouldn't know...

[mistertrickster]

42. Exactly. It's kind of hard to feel a sense of solidarity

with people who delight in telling you how stupid and hateful you are.

Is this kind of divisiveness productive to our mutual goals?

Let me answer that -- no.

[Humanist_Activist]

50. What mutual goals, you created this thread in a direct response to the righteous...

condemnation of a bigoted thread about the United States as a Christian nation, in addition to "true Christians" being only those who are kind or charitable. An offense to most non-Christians on this board. Let me ask you, did that thread, with the way the OP was worded, really have the goal of bridging any divides?

[mistertrickster]

55. Also, the cartoon saying that Christian beliefs about

Easter were as ridiculous as chocolate eggs and bunnies.

On Easter Sunday, I got to see that.

Way to stay classy, folks . . .

So hell yes, I'm calling those folks out. Stop the bashing, stop the hate. Live up to your own ideals of embracing diversity.

[Humanist_Activist]

63. But they are just as ridiculous, you could have chosen to ignore that thread...

me, personally, I love Easter, the chocolate eggs, Easter Bunny, etc. Fond memories of childhood Easter baskets, my family celebrates every year, we also consistently fail to mention Jesus.

[mistertrickster]

70. That would be a good topic at a forum dedicated to

questions of metaphysics.

Since this is called DemocraticUnderground because it is a place for Democratic Liberals to discuss politics, post like that cartoon serve no purpose other than making you feel superior in your own imagination at the expense of the majority of Democratic liberals who are in fact Christian.

It also puts the lie to your own professed ideal of "acceptance of diversity."

[Humanist_Activist]

74. Acceptance of diversity doesn't mean I have to accept bad ideas into my own head...

that's stupid.

[mistertrickster]

79. You don't have to believe them. You have to tolerate them.

I accept gays, but that doesn't mean I want anal sex.

[Humanist_Activist]

87. Bad analogy, that's about people, not ideas, I don't tolerate bad ideas, I may tolerate the people..

who hold them though. Depends on how bad or ridiculous the idea is, and how strongly the person feels about that idea, or self identifies with it.

[Marrah_G]

141. WTF.....................

[JoeyT]

142. Persecuted Christian steps into

homophobic bigotry while screaming about bigotry.

Pretty much what you expect when a member of a vocal majority pretends to be a persecuted minority.

[Hissyspit]

145. Not all gays engage in anal sex and plenty of straights do.

And it's beside the point and completely unnecessary. Incredibly false analogy. Beliefs versus people. Congrats. You have no credibility.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

149. Nice debating skills, pops.

[mtnester]

154. FAIL

for the record you posted (in case of the inevitable self delete):


mistertrickster
79. You don't have to believe them. You have to tolerate them.

I accept gays, but that doesn't mean I want anal sex.



Again I say, EPIC FAIL

[pacalo]

155. You just replied to a non-specific reference to diversity with an offensive, overbroad

remark about gays?



People serving on juries need to pay closer attention.

[idwiyo]

157. I honestly want to believe that your debating skills are so bad that what you write is NOT

what you actually trying to say.

Can you please elaborate/explain your statement below:

in response to this:

Humanist_Activist
74. Acceptance of diversity doesn't mean I have to accept bad ideas into my own head...
that's stupid.

You wrote this:

Star Member mistertrickster
79. You don't have to believe them. You have to tolerate them.
I accept gays, but that doesn't mean I want anal sex.

Here are some facts:

Sexual orientation is NOT a "chosen lifestyle" or "set of beliefs". It is a fundamental fact of nature and it's existence is not open for debate anymore then existence of gravity is.

It might help if you start thinking about sexual orientation as having different eye colour or having curly red hair vs straight blond.

Now that you know where I stand, can you please explain what exactly did you mean when you said "I accept gays".

[Gore1FL]

114. Sorry Christianity has some pretty strange shit in it

But putting aside that bloodshed of a third party is required to forgive everyone from someone else's sin is downright offense.

Outside of geography and the names of some rulers, everything tin the Bible that is verifiable is wrong.

Sorry.

Christianity involved a God whose behavior we wouldn't tolerate from a 5-year-old.

Sorry.

There is no evidence of a God. There is no need for a God.

Sorry.

Christianity is constantly crammed down our throats. How many snuff picks did I get to see last Friday? Talk about classy....

I wouldn't be having this conversation with you had you not chosen to bring it up. You will notice this is the response of most people. Believe whatever the fuck you want. I don't care. Be as ludicrous as you wish. Just keep me out of it.

[img][/img]

[got root]

49. i see many groups picked on here

but i agree that it is wrong to belittle or be rude to anyone, especially here on DU.

and when someone does that, they should be alerted on.

though, folks are entitled to express their opinions on faith, especially when it comes to it's use in public policy debates. and to even ridicule that.

my mother had a very deep faith in Christ, and though I respected his teachings, and wisdom, I am an atheist and feel much more 'persecuted' and excluded in America than I think Christians are.

[Humanist_Activist]

58. What is hateful about ridicule? Particularly since its generally limited to ideas and beliefs...

again, this is an example of Christians wanting their beliefs on an untouchable pedestal, something that I have heard no one else ask for.

[Skittles]

47. LOLOL

poor widdle christians

[Solly Mack]

54. Fart noises.

[RainDog]

56. I don't care what his professed faith might be and it has nothing to do with his ability to govern

because he has not indicated that he is willing to allow faith to interfere with science or to justify sexism, etc. etc. That's what I care about when someone talks religion - whether their beliefs provide them justification for political, educational and social attitudes that I do not think are worthwhile.

Statistically, the more education someone has, the less they seem to think religion matters in life - realistically, no one in the U.S. can be elected as President if they don't make some claim to faith - so, honestly, Obama's religious beliefs don't matter to me - he has demonstrated he's not a fundamentalist whacko.

His political philosophy, however, does matter.

From a Pew poll conducted in March of 2012:

http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/more-see-too-much-religious-talk-by-politicians.aspx

Nearly four-in-ten Americans (38%) now say there has been too much expression of religious faith and prayer from political leaders, while 30% say there has been too little. In 2010, more said there was too little than too much religious expression from politicians (37% vs. 29%). The percentage saying there is too much expression of religious faith by politicians has increased across party lines, but this view remains far more widespread among Democrats than Republicans.

Slightly more than half of the public (54%) says that churches should keep out of politics, compared with 40% who say religious institutions should express their views on social and political matters. This is the third consecutive poll conducted over the past four years in which more people have said churches and other houses of worship should keep out of politics than said they should express their views on social and political topics. By contrast, between 1996 and 2006 the balance of opinion on this question consistently tilted in the opposite direction.

At the same time, 51% of the public say that religious conservatives have too much control over the Republican Party. Fewer express the view that liberals who are not religious have too much control over the Democratic Party (41%).

71% say the Democratic party is either friendly or neutral about the issue of religion.

You're going to find more atheists, agnostics, skeptics, freethinkers and those who adhere to "spiritual" beliefs that do not promote a certain view of Christianity (the fundie kind) among democrats than republicans. Some of them are going to state their opinions about religion - because certain religious groups continue to try to force their view of religion into the political sphere. Some of them are going to be hostile toward that group, but may phrase this hostility in general terms. Some are hostile because of their prior experience with such groups - for them, it's personal.

I try to phrase my complaints within the context of certain beliefs because those are the ones I find unsupportable - and, yes, I challenge those who express a belief in creationism or I.D. because it's nonsense - I don't like to see people wallow in the gutter of ignorance. There is no dispute about the absolute worthlessness of creationism as a scientific issue.

Some of the phrases you include failed to include the original remarks in which someone makes the claim that anyone who has ethics is a "small c" Christian - as though only Christians have ethics - which is not true - and why wouldn't someone respond to that false claim? So, it was okay for someone to claim that only Christians have ethics? What a lot of Christians are unfamiliar with is coming into an environment in which people aren't polite about those sorts of remarks. In situations in real life, people put up with such nastiness all the time - here, they don't feel like they have to.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

57. Well most people in GD hate President Obama as well so might not be the best example

But I do have a deep respect for President Obama and his faith and compassion and I think it guides many of the decisions he makes in office

Thanks for posting this BTW

[NYC Liberal]

61. I'm fine with Christians as individuals and people.

I used to be one and as long as someone isn't trying to push their beliefs on others, I won't bash someone personally for their beliefs (even if I criticize the claims themselves).

However,I dislike much of Christianity -- meaning its doctrines -- and I disagree with its beliefs.

[SpartanDem]

62. This agnostic agrees with you

if you changed the religon of these statements I can't see anyone on DU allowing these to stand. There's no doubt outside the DU community atheist/agnostic face real and persistant discrimination, that is however not excuse belittle Christians on DU.


I think "Jews" are probably the most harmful entities on this planet right now. No single group has caused more bloodshed and harm to the living beings on this planet.

I don't bash individual Muslims. I bash the idea of Islam which very much does need to be bashed. With a few exceptions, that's what I see the majority of athiests on DU doing. If it bothers you so that your religion is being bashed, and you take that as a personal affront from all athiests on DU, perhaps your belief is not nearly as strong as you thought.

[mistertrickster]

64. Exactly right. You got it. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

67. The first quote you mention is a peronal broad brush, and went too far...

the second, even with the changed words, as you put it, is still acceptable. I find Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, much of Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc. as ridiculous.

[JoeyT]

138. Well good, Agnostics can make

terrible arguments too.

Replace every instance of Christian in the OP that isn't a quote with "White men", repost it, and see how long it stands once it's a long screed of how oppressed white men are in this country/board. And as an added bonus, that isn't nearly as silly an argument as you just made. You know, Christians being the dominant group in this country and all.

[Mimosa]

160. Whoa...When you put it like that...

There are as many differing types of Christians as there are jews or muslims. It all depends on how a person interprets her faith, doesn't it?

[WiffenPoof]

65. Funny...

I completely agree with all of the points you posted about Christians.

-P

[bluestateguy]

71. I'm still angry about how people acted during the Tuscon memorial in January 2011

There was a DU live thread during the memorial, and when a Native American Indian prayer was said everybody raved and gushed over how special and beautiful and multicultural it was. Fine, I got no problem with that.

But then God forbid another speaker got up to deliver a Christian prayer and then the angry atheist hornets nest was stirred up. Cheap shots about Christianity being mythology, and God being an "invisible sky daddy" and various other mockery in the thread. Well sorry the memorial was not to your liking, but tough shit.

Some people have a real hard time stomaching that fact-- not an opinion-- but the fact that a majority of Americans are Christian.

[msongs]

72. obama conveniently ignores his christian beliefs..he is no role model in that regard. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

78. How? n/t

[mistertrickster]

80. Like when he publicly confesses his Christianity? nt

[Obamacare]

84. Huh, how does Obama ignore his Christian beliefs? You need to go back to freeperville seriously!!

Anywho, I have seen a lot of Christian bashing on DU as well and the mods should put their foot down. I hate to see Christian's or atheist's bashed or hated on. IMO, its the same as racism, one or more atheist's or Christian's says or does something you don't like and then the entire group is judged based on someone's bad experience. I think most of us would agree how ridiculous it is to judge a whole group based on the actions of some. As a Christian, I have nothing against atheist's, I just wish the bashing and hate threads against both groups would cease.

[TriMera]

81. When "Christians" stop trying to make me live

by their laws, I'll probably be a little nicer.

"In the Archdiocese of Seattle, our bishops issued a letter saying parishes will become signature-gathering centers for Referendum 74, a ballot measure designed to roll back same-sex marriage."

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/connelly/article/A-Catholic-laments-dogmatic-tone-deaf-bishops-3465228.php#ixzz1rbnOBjYd

[mistertrickster]

85. The fact that the Roman Church calls itself Christian

(on edit) while engaging in hateful acts has been a big stumbling block.

But other churches are working FOR gay (universal human) rights.

[Hugabear]

88. Aren't you now bashing the Catholic Church?

How are they any less "Christian" than other Christians?

[mistertrickster]

92. Hateful acts done in the name of religion should be condemned.

Like flying planes into buildings. I condemn it.

I don't condemn Islam, however.

[Humanist_Activist]

95. Why not? Islam is a religion that encourages violence to defend God, martyrdom, and misogyny...

among many other bad things. Its not unique among religions in this regard, are you basically saying that its above criticism like Christianity should be?

[Humanist_Activist]

90. But the Roman Catholic Church is Christian, just like all other...

self identified Christian churches, and believers. Are you saying they are not?

[mistertrickster]

98. see edit

Hateful acts justified by religion are to be condemned.

Just as Muslims condemned suicide attacks in the name of Islam.

[Humanist_Activist]

101. Doesn't help, there's nothing in Christianity that forbids them from acting hateful...

particularly if they believe its backed up by something in the Bible.

Same for Muslim terrorists. No true Scotsman is a logical fallacy that is employed without comment far too often.

[TriMera]

96. Yes, I realize that there are Christians fighting

for Human Rights. However, the good guys are far outnumbered by the bad guys. And, the bad guys are hogging the limelight.

[Marrah_G]

135. Right....... the bad Catholics, the bad Pentacostals, but YOUR version, that version is benevolent

[DirkGently]

82. I'll bite. Pronouncements of religious faith in American politics are primarily disingenuous.

Obama is far from the worst example, but he famously invited a full-blown RW Christian extremist to speak. His other comments on his faith, while doubtless true in a general sense, absolutely require a large grain of salt in the context of a fanatically extremist conservative American movement, gathered under the banner of Christianity, that welcomed him with immediate accusations of being a Muslim, and the unspoken suggestion that no Muslim would ever be fit to be President. He, and every other political leader in the country, is constantly under pressure to prove he is sufficiently Christian, goes to church enough, puts the right picture on his Christmas card, doesn't commit the sin of referring to the Christmas season or the (pagan) tree decoration with the overly inclusive term "holidays," etc., etc. etc.

Respectfully, I hope this OP is not an attempt to conflate criticism of religion, which more relevant than ever now, with the tidal wave of religiously justified attacks on women and gay people, with an attack on Obama, and thus to bring it under the umbrella of things not permitted on DU. That would be both sad and incredibly silly.

Back to the point though, it's well past time for more full-throated critique of the role of, in particular, the Christian religion in American culture, and politics. We have developed this very strange, inherently contradictory game, in which anyone who would hold office is put under tremendous pressure to claim devotion to philosophical traditions which, if taken literally -- would be insane.

Why is that okay?

If we were to remove the protective cloak of tradition, and consider the qualifications for national political office -- or even, say, dogcatcher -- of someone who believed the entire world was created by, is in the control of, and has every iota of ethical behavior defined by, some OTHER otherworldly being besides Yahweh / Allah, the conversation would be brief, defined by uncomfortable laughter, and likely followed with a psychological exam.

What we insist on is lip service. No one wants a leader who really believes in virgin births or mystical healing, or prancing devils waiting in the afterlife to torture unbelievers with fire.

No sane person would vote for anyone who genuinely believes our lives should be dictated by 2,000 year-old stories of magical beings who enjoy sacrificial bulls, murder thousands of children when angry, order that women should be subservient to men, or that moral conduct includes what foods a person eats, what clothes they wear, or how or with which other consenting adults they choose to have sex. NO ONE.

It's the Lie Agreed Upon. I don't mean religion itself. There are sincere believers who lead sincere lives and sincerely try to do good, all centered around their faith. I don't agree with critics who would deny that. Normal Christianity, practiced the way normal, secularly minded people practice it, does not require or even deserve ridicule.

None of this is to say incivility toward DUers or any other typical people of faith -- the ones that don't define their beliefs as simply a justification to humiliate or destroy anyone or anything they find culturally distasteful -- is okay. There is plenty of room for any number of beliefs.

But those beliefs are not immune to criticism, including the criticism that they are fully nonsensical.

Not when they are used as a cudgel, over and over and over again, to attack and destroy people and support every heinous political agenda from homophobia to forced vaginal ultrasounds. For Christ's sake.

So long as the public discussion of Christianity in American politics and culture is dominated by the Santorums and Popes of the world, yes, vitriol, satire, and derision are going to be part of the conversation. It's necessary, decent, and more than fully deserved. If it offends normal churchgoers who aren't screaming at the top their lungs about zygotes being people, or gays and Muslims NOT being people, then they just aren't paying enough attention.

I think everyone understands that President Obama is one of many public figures who seem unable to disentangle themselves from this hypocrisy. It is enough, for now, if he will simply oppose as any decent person would, the indecent things continually proposed in the name of Christianity in this country.

It can, however, be done. JFK seemed to have had a pretty good handle on the way religion and politics should work in a sane, secular society. I question whether Obama or any national political figure say this now, given that "separation of church and state" has become another in the growing list flat-out denials of reality embraced by American "Christian Conservatives:"

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute, where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference; and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him."

[mistertrickster]

89. I agree with that . . .

Hateful things done in the name of religion should be condemned in the strongest terms.

[whatchamacallit]

83. I have several major problems with that guy

and don't give a shit about his religious beliefs.

[rhett o rick]

86. It there a point to this thread other than to stir up trouble? nm

[mistertrickster]

94. Asking people to show respect for one another

is not stirring up trouble, imho.

[Humanist_Activist]

99. You are confusing respect for people with lack of reverence for religious beliefs...

they are not equal, beliefs that are ridiculous, bad, etc. deserve to be mocked. The fact that you take it personally is your problem.

[sadbear]

102. LOL

[Humanist_Activist]

103. I love it, I mock your beliefs, you threaten my physical being...

who is the bully again?

ON EDIT: In addition, I will daresay that you are acting like a typical Christian, threatening physical violence for a perceived offense. Frankly, I'm not surprised.

[mistertrickster]

105. No threat. Just an observation of fact. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

106. "I bet I can kick your ass", I don't understand why you even had to point that out...

I'm a pacifist by nature, indeed I was beaten up quite a bit as a kid all the way through high school, the fact is, only one of us is acting like the big man on campus, the bully, and that person is you.

[mistertrickster]

108. That explains a lot actually . . . nt

[Humanist_Activist]

109. So you concede you are the bully?

I advise you go to anger management.

[mistertrickster]

128. I regret that post actually. I publicly apologize.

In real life, we'd probably get along fine.

I find that the medium of web posting tends to inflame discourse, and people get very distorted views of what the other person is saying.

[Humanist_Activist]

133. Apology accepted...

takes a big person to apologize publicly.

This is why I attempt to remove my emotions from the debate, something I can easily do when its a debate about ideas, less so when its a debate that directly affects people.

I still do not understand what made you so upset. I refrain from personal attacks because I find them counterproductive.

[provis99]

104. yet above, you condemn other Christians for their beliefs.

and threatening to kick a secularist's ass makes your OP seem ridiculous and hypocritical.

[Rex]

107. Oppps it was a self-deletesiiee!!

Jesus would not have approved of that msg.

[Humanist_Activist]

118. His OP had no real function other than to berate people to show reverence for his religion...

and apparently, if we fail to do so, to threaten physical violence, or brag that it may happen, whatever.

[RainDog]

120. there was a troll on DU a while back

who rolled out this same sort of bullshit claim.

he was banned.

but he spent a lot of time on this site attacking people who criticized religion. I forget his name now.

mister trickster only has 8000 posts and the other guy was banned - so they're not the same person, obviously.

[Humanist_Activist]

123. I wouldn't call the OP a troll, or even trollish, they simply don't understand that...

not putting their religious beliefs on a pedestal doesn't mean I'm attacking him personally. The fact that he resorted to that simply strengthens my position on the issue. It illustrates a disconnect between a lot of secular people and religious people. I simply don't understand what I say about his beliefs that could be so offensive, when I expect none of the reverence for my beliefs in return.

[RainDog]

129. maybe it's because you can defend your beliefs with facts n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

134. I guess he could attempt to bash Humanism, though I really am amused as to how that would look...

You believe humans should be good to each other? What a stupid idea!

OK, that was lame, but I'm just trying to come up with an equivalence here.

[Marrah_G]

136. Will you delete this post also?

[cherokeeprogressive]

124. So pointing out hypocrisy is now an attempt to "stir up trouble"?

I understand that President Obama's hypocrisy is off limits when it comes to Gitmo, drones, unwarranted surveillance and such, but President Obama claims to be a "man of faith".

When one mentions that in response to a pointed insult to people of faith, the responses are at best tepid, and at worst they call President Obama a LIAR whose intent when expressing his faith is "pandering to idiots", then explain that he LIES because he couldn't be President otherwise.

If that's not fucking hypocrisy I don't know what is.

[Hugabear]

125. Apparently even quoting the Bible can be considered "bashing Christians"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=489512

[Warren Stupidity]

168. This is the second off topic wrong forum try by the op.

Hello mods? Wtf?

[rufus dog]

112. I understand where you are coming from, and apologize for others slighting your beliefs.

I myself do not follow your beliefs, although what I read in the bible I agree with about 99% of the time. In retirement I plan on studying every religion of the world, the subject is truly fascinating to me. Also some of the staunchest liberals I know are devout Christians, IMO, truly understanding the teachings of the Bible.

Also, I believe that any Liberal, once provided with an others belief, should respect that belief, respect the person, and spend time trying to understand that person's point of view.

Best wishes to you my DU Brother.

[kentauros]

126. Great post!

And here's a site you might want to bookmark for future reading: Internet Sacred Text Archive

[sudopod]

115. You know, there are places where they charge you for persecution on demand. nt

[Zalatix]

116. More bullshit to distract us from our fight against the Plutocracy.

I'm not saying you the OP are full of shit. I'm saying the whole debate is bullshit.

The only religion I despise is Capitalism.

[mistertrickster]

119. Actually that was what I had in mind.

With all the cheap-shotting of religion around here, you'd think it's MetaphysicalUnderground instead of a political discussion board.

[Fumesucker]

132. If the religious would keep their religion(s) out of politics..

People who were interested in politics wouldn't find it necessary to delve into religion.

You are just reaping the harvest that comes from the sowing of religion into politics.

[RainDog]

147. when religions stop using their beliefs to attack women, homosexuals and science

then I guess that's when I'll give a flying fuck if the dominant religion in this nation is ridiculed.

when people try to claim that science is false because of something their idiot pastor told them, that pastor needs to be called an idiot. because that's what he is.

anyone who teaches such things to people should be ridiculed - it's SHAMEFUL that pastors spread ignorance like a disease.

[TransitJohn]

121. Is this a joke?

Can't tell.

[sadbear]

122. Only 12 Recs?

You decide.

[Lost-in-FL]

127. ...

[mistertrickster]

130. Nice. Now do you have a cartoon that actually shows

someone attacking atheists from a faith perspective?

And I don't mean what Jerry Falwell said. I mean a cartoon mocking atheists.

That would be somewhat more persuasive.

[Lost-in-FL]

139. Really? Allow me a few samples.

They might not be cartoons but I bet it was funny to a lot of Christians (or even believers of the other Judeo-Christian franchises).

[Marrah_G]

131. Like I told you in the other thread: Christians are not oppressed, they are not victims

The post you deleted after you ended up looking like a fool.

If your religious group's biggest problem is that a relative minute amount of people on an internet message board think your beliefs are foolish and dangerous, I would be willing to bet a whole lot of groups would love to switch places with you.

There is no War on ~insert holy day here~ and Christians in the US have never known oppression.

And yes I have a big problem with the President, current and past, shaping policy beliefs based upon their religious beliefs. I also had a huge issue with the nasty bigoted mainstream Christian personalities President Obama brought into his campaign, inauguration and white house.

Your whining and complaining about how oppressed the largest and most powerful religion in the country is, frankly makes you look silly.

[JoeyT]

137. Oh good, another Christian that has a sad.

I am highly amused at Christians being "persecuted" in the US. The same way I'm amused at straight, white, rich, or dudes that claim they're persecuted. The dominant group screaming about how persecuted they are deserves little but ridicule.

And the trigger for the shrieks of persecution are *always* exactly the same. "You failed to automatically bow to my privilege and recognize my inherent greatness? You're persecuting me! Reverse Racism/Sexism/Class Warfare/Shoving Religion!"

Strangely enough, any of the other four would instantly be shot down by most liberal Christians, while the fifth is applauded and encouraged.

[Egalitarian Thug]

153. "Strangely enough, any of the other four would instantly be shot down by most liberal Christians,

while the fifth is applauded and encouraged."

Psychosis (from the Ancient Greek ψυχή "psyche", for mind/soul, and -ωσις "-osis", for abnormal condition) means abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". People suffering from psychosis are described as psychotic. Psychosis is given to the more severe forms of psychiatric disorder, during which hallucinations and delusions and impaired insight may occur.[2] Some professionals say that the term psychosis is not sufficient as some illnesses grouped under the term "psychosis" have nothing in common (Gelder, Mayou & Geddes 2005). Indeed, a complex constellation of neurological and psychological factors can result in the altered signalling observed in psychosis. In otherwise normal individuals, exogenous ligands can produce psychotic symptoms. NMDA receptor antagonists, such as ethanol and ketamine, can replicate a similar psychosis to that experienced in schizophrenia.

[teknomanzer]

140. Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false

...and by the rulers as useful

[Egalitarian Thug]

151. Really good. Yours? n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

152. Translation: To all you non-x-tians, F U! we're in charge and there's nothing you can do about it.

How very X-tian of you.
Here in Sin City all we have is hate-talk on the radio and this could be a transcript of any one of their shows.

1984 was a warning, not an instruction manual.

[Mimosa]

156. I well remeber that speech.

Not that I like Obama's denomination...since I'm an unchurched christian...

But thanks for the cool OP.

[Marrah_G]

170. Great post

best regards,

#'s 6 & 7

[GeorgeGist]

163. “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Ghandi.

[GeorgeGist]

164. Who would Jesus kill ...

with predator drones?

[MadHound]

165. Poor picked upon, persecuted Christians

People say mean things about them on an internet chat board, poor persecuted Christians.

Never mind how many people are truly persecuted, killed and injured in the name of Christianity every single day. We must feel sympathy for Christians and Christianity because somebody said something mean

I see you like dragging that cross around everywhere with you.

[maddezmom]

171. locking

Please feel free to repost in Meta.