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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSmall example of lovely conversation I had this a.m. with a Libertarian nutjob
Libertarian: When governments spend more than they have, thats what happens
Me: Youre either out of your mind, or you're choosing voluntary blindness, but lets assume that were the situation, whats your solution?
Libertarian: You lower your spending!
Me: But what about the fact that the mega-wealthy are no longer paying equitable taxes? If you have no revenue or very little revenue, how can you even spend ANYTHING? There's nothing TO spend!
Libertarian: Are you kidding me? The rich paying the bulk of the taxes in the U.S. What kind of tax rates would you like them to be paying? Let me ask you something, do you routinely spend more than you make?
Me: No, I dont. I do put funds into my piggy bank. There would be a problem if I didnt put funds in there, and thats whats happened in the U.S. I want them to pay the same rates they were paying before Reagan. Let me explain
Libertarian interrupted me
Again
And again
And again
Then I went quiet, then Libertarian said, Fine, go ahead but youre WRONG, and you wont listen because you're hard-headed!!
Me: Listen up. If you have a parent with children, and that parent works but keeps the money for HIMSELF and doesnt share it with his children, according to YOU, the solution to that problem, is for the children to eat less and go shoeless, since theyre eating more than the money available for them to eat and wear shoes.
Libertarian: No, thats not what I said
Me: Oh, it sure as hell is, but you said youd let me finish!!!!
Libertarian uttered: Nuts! You're nuts! then went into silence and seething anger.
Me: Corporations and the rich are not paying their fair share in taxes, and you know this for a fact because I've mentioned this before so of course this country's govt has much less funds to pay necessary things with. Also, corporations are selling their foreign-made products to us, products that once were manufactured here, and for which the American workforce got paid for making. That means less revenue to go into our country. So there you have 2 monstrously huge reasons our govt has no funds. Its NOT that vital, life-giving programs are spending more than this country is making. Its that the funds that were going into this country HAVE BEEN TAKEN AWAY BY THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS, AND THESE NEED TO BE PUT BACK.
Libertarian: Can I talk now?"
Me: "NO."
Libertarian: "You want to take money from the rich. Its always the rich, the rich, corporations, the rich, corporations, blah blah
Me: Hey, iIf theyre the ones responsible for the f'd up situation we're in, Im not going to protect their evil asses like you do..
And so it went.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)"Me: Listen up. If you have a parent with children, and that parent works but keeps the money for HIMSELF and doesnt share it with his children, according to YOU, the solution to that problem, is for the children to eat less and go shoeless, since theyre eating more than the money available for them to eat and wear shoes."
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)progressoid
(49,824 posts)Must be all the RW media brain washing.
(I assume this person wasn't mega-wealthy)
Mimosa
(9,131 posts)Any time I'd clicked on Am radio I'd hear that hogwash.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)financially in this economy, but does he connect the dots? NO, of course, why should he? He's a Republican, they're not here to connect the dots or understand anything.
Raine
(30,540 posts)they actually think the system would allow types like them to get a slice of the pie.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Not only are they serial interruptors and talk for the sake of hearing themselves talk, it just amazes me how steadfastly protective they are of the wealthy and corporations and how insistent they are that lower taxes on the wealthy (or even more hilarious, elimination of them completely) and less money towards social programs is the solution that ails all of our problems.
It also amazes me about libertarians how they insist up and down that "they're not Republicans", yet subscribe to and practically trip over themselves to defend every failed Republican economic policy there is. Paulites are even worse; they want to pretty much eliminate the social safety net instead of merely defund it. Yeah, good luck fending off THAT mob, guys.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Yeah, the wealthy should pay more in taxes, because without this system of government, they wouldn't have made that huge pile of money. It should be on them to finance its running, and it should be run for the benefit of far more people than just the wealthy. As it is now, the government is financed by the dwindling middle and lower classes largely for the benefit of the robber barons at the top. There has been a 30-year massive upward transfer of the wealth generated by labor in this country, and it hasn't benefited the citizens because all the wealthy have produced is more greed.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Prattle on all you want about "SOSHULISM", Repubs and Libertarians. The only "Soshulism" happening in this country is that which rewards those who least need it, regardless of what kind of job they do. The only "Soshulism" happening in this country is LOSS, while all of the gains are privatized.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)you have to put some of that benefit back, or go elsewhere and try to get that benefit elsewhere, but don't come trying to get benefits here again by trying to sell products to the people you turned your back on, or trying to get tax deductions, or trying to use lands for free, etc. etc. etc.
They're all a bunch of a-holes.
And yes, the dwindling middle class are the ones supporting this country that the rich, powerful and corps are sucking benefits from.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)capitalism when (S)he set the wheels of the universe in motion, a fact the plutocrats, their lackies and lickspittles often conveniently forget.
Mimosa
(9,131 posts)Every now and then I used to visit a couple of boards where most of the males posting claimed to be 'libertarians'. Having leaned that way when I was young I know libertarian philosophy.
You can tell when a self-described libertarian is really a rightwinger by their views on abortion. That's where they can't keep up the pretense.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)they share every belief with them, except perhaps sex, drugs and rock 'n roll.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Anti-Government wimmins on CNBC kick Soshulism's ass and give Penn Jillette happy feelings in pants.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)Oh, yeah, she's also an author:
I mean, THAT's some choots-pah, isn't it? Who the hell names their book "You KNOW I'm Right"?? "I'm the greatest bastard in this room! BOW to my wisdumb!"
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Her father is wealthy, her mother immigrated from Cuba very early on, so she was probably from a highly influential family in Cuba and hot-tailed it out of there. Many of the Cubans that left early had money in the U.S.
She's just another a-hole, and makes mucho $ being one.
I learned many years ago that anyone who is not a complete doofus can make a lot of money by offering to suck right wing ass. She's one of those who made it that way.
Javaman
(62,439 posts)when ever I heard a libertarian speak, I walk away. there is no curing stupid.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)stupid ones are headache forming
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)it's so easy. I also enjoy it when they get angry because their argument has been proved to be illogical and just downright stupid and evil.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)And my Libertarian is a cousin. Of course he started using the "You are so brainwashed" line to me. He also called me a Hitler Jew. Didn't go over too well with my Father. I also let his Mother know what a filthy mouth her little nincampoop has. It's really all they know - dirty comebacks with no substance. Ron Paul is the end-all - why?? He's out of the mainstream. Look you moron - Ron Paul has been in the government for 30 years. He is so far in the mainstream he is the mainstream!!!
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)He then back-tracked and said that there were Jews that were for Hitler. Thus comparing President Obama to Hitler. Then his idiot brother got into the conversation and called me a sheep. I guess anyone who doesn't believe in Ron Paul's BS is a sheep. I liked the 2 of them better when they wet their pants when they were babies. At least then they didn't talk and upset their older wiser cousin.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Locrian
(4,522 posts)Where the "business man" (ie what they think of themselves) is the hero. Because it MUST be so: 'hard work' = success and if you dont have success you obviously didnt work hard enough.
Never mind that a lot of what the mega corporations and wall street crooks got there (and more importantly STAY there) by cheating and gaming the system.
They refuse to see that they are being bent over and screwed. They cant face the fact that they have more in common with the person on welfare or making dirt (ie in their minds the LOSERS) than the 'rich elite' (WINNERS) that they fancy themselves to be a part of.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Locrian
(4,522 posts)It probably didn't help that he made even a little bit of money in the market. So he basically gambled, did no "real" work, and made a few bucks and now feels like he's JP Morgan.
A little bit of ego is all that it takes....
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Swede
(33,139 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)really.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)last month, only he was presenting both sides as a unified argument and arriving at the conclusion that he's "tired of supporting lazy people" and just wants some of his money back. I got whiplash and a severe headache afterward. His conclusion is also that he hates both parties and will not vote. Period.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)the same even remotely. I think behind the label "independents" are just more right wingnuts.
Libertarians and Republicans are the undisputed destructors of our country. The only people they wish to benefit, and have spent their lives benefiting, are the rich, powerful, and corporations.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)need to wear warning labels on their clothes like the warnings on cigarette packages
On a serious note, your brother sounds like a textbook example of Marxist 'alienation' as elaborated on by Gramsci and Marcuse, among others.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)for making the effort. I've given up trying to discuss politics with Repukes and Libertarians. The former invariably lie, almost as if it's part of their internal constitutions and the latter are uniformly caught in mass ahistorical delusions. Unfortunately, the entire country from time to time either buys the lies or gets swept up in the delusions.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)make them happy to know that, and it does make their face turn red with fury. That gives me a bit of a thrill.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It's so exciting - it's like their heads are going to explode or something. It gets kind of gross though when they get spitting mad and start slobbering all over everything.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)out of their stupidity!
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)if we had had a constitutional amendment calling for a balanced budget.
That factoid usually shuts up the goofy libertarians I know.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)not have fought in World War II and that we got suckered into it by Churchill, et. al.
It's these ahistorical delusions they manifest that have caused me to cease and desist in any attempts at political discourse with any of those whack-jobs.
JHB
(37,128 posts)...is to play to the audience, if there is one. To make him look like the jackass he is in front of everybody there.
They can be reached.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)JHB
(37,128 posts)...(well, some, but that's not the main thing), what I want is for people who are already wealthy to not redistribute wealth into their own pockets as much. To simply slow down how fast they get more wealthy and pay their people the difference.
Or, propose changing tax rates ranging from 10% to 81%, increasing over 24 brackets. And after the apoplectic response, note that that is 10% lower than what we actually had in the 1950s. If the words "socialist" or "communist" were involved, ask him what the Soviets were, since apparently we were the commies back then.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)out the fallacies in the right wing philosophy. That is what a "Commie" really is to them. It has nothing to do with Communism, but boy, do they use the term.
Ganja Ninja
(15,953 posts)So I guess the Libertarian is in favor of scrapping the Navy and Air Forces and bringing the troops home. Cutting the military by 90% and bringing spending under control must be his fondest wish, or am I wrong about that?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)And of course, they don't like military spending that helps former veterans and injured veterans.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)I see him for a few days maybe once a year and from the first minute he baits me with corporatist BS, like he's been planning and preparing for it point by point like a pushy salesman. Always interrupts just like the one you describe, and uses the tritest lamest talking points as though it was some startling revelation I've never heard of. Within minutes he's literally yelling, and I'm tensed up enough to pop him one in the mouth.
He's worried about getting by as a retiree and thinks the rich can do no wrong ( unless they're rich and liberal ) and literally sees me as his political enemy.
Talk about barking up the wrong tree.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)He ended up doing fairly well for himself and retired comfortably. Materialistic. He seems to think now that he's "made it" that the whole world wants to take what's his. Endlessly watching Fox news and listening to Rush Limbaugh, as well has associating only with other wealthy conservative people has more or less brainwashed him into a super hard-right winger. There's another factor: He was in sales all his life and very heavily read in motivational self-help material. So every conversation is like a "pitch". He thinks his ability to persuade is so absolute, that if one disagrees with him, it's just out of spite. I'm not kidding. He just cannot deal with it if he can't talk you into something.
He was always like this but dealing with the world in his working life kept it in check. Now that he's in a sort of protected bubble, he's absolutely insufferable. Others have noticed this as well. He doesn't care and scoffs at what others think. His friends are rich and politically conservative, but none have his viciousness or stridency.
I feel really bad it's worked out this way, since he's otherwise healthy and has every reason to enjoy life but chooses to be bitter just because politics dominate his every thought.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Try that. See what he really holds important. That might give him a clue. Or maybe not! He has swallowed the whole capitalism-everything's-for-sale bs propaganda.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)I'm sure he'll want to be seen as a benign figure that not enough people really understood. I can tell you with absolute certainty though that he'll believe in the "whole capitalism-everything's-for-sale bs propaganda" till the end. I mean; it was the blueprint that shaped his life.
But that's a good question. If he's intellectually honest enough to answer truthfully, that may well be a wedge that may split his iron heart. Then again, he may sense that and not answer in a way that he thinks gives "the enemy" any aid and comfort. By "enemy", that's anybody the slightest degree to the left of him on any issue.
Damn: I though people should get mellow when they age
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Yeah, maybe that question will make him ponder.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)They make 90% of the money and pay 70% of the taxes so they are over taxed.
Gotta love libertarian logic and math.