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[Bjorn Against]

1. Your claims of what happened are far more dishonest

There was no knife visible in the video and the victim was standing several feet away and posed no immediate threat to police. Saying "shoot me" does not give police the right to shoot.

[Michigander_Life]

4. Witnesses confirmed the knife.

The video confirms everything else.

[Bjorn Against]

5. We have video and we can see what happened

And we can see that the police were lying about what happened. They murdered that guy and anyone who watches the video and has even a shred of honesty can see that.

[Michigander_Life]

6. They should have let him keep coming to stab them?

[Bjorn Against]

8. There is no evidence he was going to stab them

It is not at all surprising to see you trying to justify the murder of a black man, but the video does not back up your smears at all.

[Michigander_Life]

9. No evidence?

He's on video walking toward police with a knife in his hand yelling for them to shoot him and ignoring their pleas to drop his knife.

[Bjorn Against]

11. The video shows him several feet away when he was shot

The video does not show a knife nor does it show any threatening behavior. Slowly walking around the police does not justify shooting a person.

[Michigander_Life]

12. Police training is to not allow anyone with a knife within 21 feet

As someone with a knife can close the minimum 21ft distance before the officer can react to stop the threat.

[Bjorn Against]

17. Once again the video shows no knife

The police shot him mine times, several of those shots came when he was already on the ground. I know you want to justify the murder of a black man, but that just shows your own sick ideology it does not mean we should trust you over our own eyes.

[Generic Other]

37. I have an extra large monitor

1:29. He has taken a knife out of his pocket. Not very large. Could even be a dinner knife which I would not find very threatening. It was small enough to fit in his pocket.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. why not try a supposed non-lethal weapon like a taser first?

[Michigander_Life]

58. Tazers are excellent tools to be used in such situations if practical

In order for a tazer to be practical in a deadly force scenario, there must be a lethal cover officer (present in this situation) and the suspect must be somewhat contained, not already advancing on the officers.

Also, a taser must be present. It is unknown if these officers had access to a taser.

A taser should NEVER be considered as a replacement for deadly force when deadly force is necessary.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. and Deadly force WASNT needed in this case...deadly force should ONLY be used

when warranted......

If you think these officers didn't have a taser available....you are naive...

In fact if they HAVE a gun but NOT a taser....don't you see a problem with THAT alone? Then its the proverbial...if all you have in your toolbelt is a hammer....everything looks like a nail. In this case...deadly results occurred.

[Michigander_Life]

65. Many departments don't issue tazers of only issue tazers to supervisors or select officers

They're very expensive.

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. Hello? Doesn't that ring any bells at all with you?

they sure as shit have money for Mrads and other military gear....but to say "tazers are too expensive"...

[Michigander_Life]

69. MRADs are free

Thanks to Uncle Sam.

[VanillaRhapsody]

71. Do they require upkeep? Does that cost money?

You are being ridiculous....

They have all the money they need to create a war machine.....but not for non-lethal weapons....and YOU seem to support that position!

its sick.

[Michigander_Life]

72. For some departments, upkeep is relatively inexpensive

There are many police who have prior military background, including in maintenance.

I think all police should have tasers, batons, pepper spray, and been bag shotguns at their disposal. I think all police should be required to film all encounters with the public. I also recognize that less lethal tools, while exceptional in certain situations, are not replacements for deadly force in all situations.

[arcane1]

67. In order for a taser to be effective, it has to be in the cop's hand instead of a pistol.

[VanillaRhapsody]

73. EXACTLY!

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. Come on....a mentally deranged individual with a pocket knife...

begging them to shoot him? GMAFB!


What chickenshits they must be....they have no business doing that job!

[zonkers]

78. Exactly!!!!!! They are here to protect the mentally ill. Those cops were terrible. Could have

shot to wound. Terrible. Terrible. This video is unreal.

[pintobean]

79. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't

call any cop who patrols that section of north St. Louis a chickenshit. You go do that job, right along side them for a few months, and you might earn that right.

[Punkingal]

102. Ignoring their pleas????

It was about 6 seconds after they got there that they shot him. This is just another one of your posts defending police murder.

[pnwmom]

97. He didn't have his knife hand raised, as the police claimed, assuming there was a knife.

Once he collapsed after the first shot, there was no reason to fire multiple shots into him. He was no threat to the police at all after the first shot or two.

[Feral Child]

85. OK

Meant as an anagram, not as a colloquial.

[moriah]

68. The "Knife Rule" is 21 feet, doncha know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

That's how cops are taught -- 7 yards, or 21 feet, and you're too close if you have a knife. You will be treated to bullets (edit: and they drill extensively on how to do it as fast as possible, as you can see.)

[pnwmom]

99. Why bulletS? Why wasn't the first bullet (or two) plenty to make this man not a threat?

Why aren't the police trained to stop firing when a man -- who is holding a knife, not a gun -- collapses?

[MohRokTah]

2. The thugification of black men on DU continues unabated. eom

[BaggersRDumb]

60. This is simple, if the man is white and wearing dockers and Gucci on a street in

Bel Air/Beverly Hills, he is not shot, not a chance in hell...

Not unless all other tools of submission fail...

They wouldnt be Dockers in that neighborhood, more like Adriano Goldschmied

[etherealtruth]

80. Woooo be afraid

scary black men

[world wide wally]

3. Maybe police should learn to fight by hand in some cases

[Michigander_Life]

7. In some cases

Not in cases when someone is armed with a deadly weapon.

[unblock]

15. merely being armed with a deadly weapon is not a capital offense.

in fact, the real second amendmentists would point out that it doesn't protect only guns.

personally, i think it's not even clear that what the guy did constitutes assault. "shoot me" is not a threat. strolling toward someone is not threatening the way charging someone would be. most important, the officer had options far short of killing.

[unblock]

10. yeah because as usualy, killing the black guy is really the only option.

it's very, very difficult to see that video, and, even filling in what we can't see with the most cop-friendly interpretation, conclude that a dead black guy is the inevitable outcome and anything else would just not be right.

the existence of a potential danger does not automatically mean you get shoot someone. a legitimate police officer doesn't control a scene by shooting anyone who doesn't follow his script. a legitimate police officer is careful to position himself safely, observe his surroundings, and keep his options open and act so as to ensure the safety of himself and those around him.

in this case the officer could have backed up or gotten in back in the car. there appears to have been *zero* effort to even consider anything non-lethal.

this is not policing.
this is hunting.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. if someone says 'shoot me', does it not indicate that this person is in the middle of a

psychotic break, and maybe some other method of policing should be used?

[Michigander_Life]

16. If he was sitting on the curb yelling shoot me -- of course

If he's walking toward the police with a knife yelling to shoot him, no.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. in any situation, shooting a man without attempting to really de-escalate the situation

is not a case of serve and protect

[unblock]

21. walking. yeah, that pretty much leaves no option. no way the officer could out-walk him.

[Erose999]

43. So you're of the opinion that walking toward police and saying "shoot me" is rational behavior?

As long as its toward the police, right?

[Michigander_Life]

57. What?

Since when does someone have to be rational to cause serious injury or death?

[unblock]

18. haha, you act as though their job was to serve and protect.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. lol. i know. so silly of me. nt

[uponit7771]

53. +1

[Iron Man]

14. There is no knife wielded in the video.

[Lee-Lee]

23. He pulls the knife out of his pocket at 1:26

Make the video full screen and watch his right hand- he keeps it in that pocket almost the whole time grasping something, until the cops arrive and he pulls it out as he turns toward them. You can see it in his hand after he pulls it out. Start at 1:25 and watch closely.

[Iron Man]

24. Yeah, he deserved to be shot 7 or 8 times because he was holding

a knife.

[Lee-Lee]

25. If you come at anyone, cop or not, swinging a knife

yeah, you deserve to get shot.

[Iron Man]

26. It's clear the victim needed mental help.

There was no need to kill him.

[Lee-Lee]

27. So had he been coming at you

Would you have just yelled "get this man a doctor" while he stabbed you?

The time for mental health intervention was well before it got so bad he was attacking cops with a knife.

[Iron Man]

36. Isn't there a reason that tasers exist?

Oh is the mantra "shoot to kill, forget helping people" now?

[Lee-Lee]

38. I am tired of typing it over and over

go read some of my other posts on why a taser wasn't viable in a quickly escalating 13 second encounter.

[Iron Man]

39. But shooting a person a dozen times is viable?

Hoo boy.

[Lee-Lee]

40. When a taser cant reliably be employed

That is the next step in escalation of force until somebody invents something new.

[Iron Man]

41. Murder is a-okay then.

Got it.

[Lee-Lee]

42. When someone is coming at you with a knife

Shooting them is not murder. No matter if you are a cop or a citizen.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

81. 8 or 9 times in the space of a few seconds?

How about a single shot, and then a re-evaluation of the potential for danger, rather than emptying two guns into someone who obviously wasn't wearing body armour?

They weren't simply looking to stop him. They definitely wanted him dead.

[Lee-Lee]

82. You shoot until the threat is stopped

Not a shot then looky loo and see what happened- he was within 2 seconds of reaching the closest officer, so if you shoot and miss, or he isn't stopped because he is on something or its a bad hit, stopping to look gets someone stabbed.

Ever fired a gun at a moving target under stress? Isn't like a video game, and you don't know for sure if you hit after the first few if the person is still in motion.

You don't shoot unless you have to, but once you have to you pull the trigger until you are 100% sure the threat is stopped.

That is simply how it is done in every police department, and has been since guns came about.

Don't want to get shot a bunch? Don't pull out a knife when police arrive and go toward them with it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

86. And that's exactly the attitude I don't want in armed people.

This whole crapola about if you pull your gun, you make sure you kill somebody. Or that you always aim for the center of mass to ensure a 'stop' (kill).

How about as a cop, if you see somebody with a knife, you keep your own distance while trying to talk them down and keeping bystanders away?

Too damn trigger happy.

[Lee-Lee]

91. Its always good to try and deescalate

Sometimes it just isn't possible because events happen too fast or the person doesn't want to.

In this event, it was both of the above

Look at this case- it was 15 seconds from cops pulling up to shots fired. He didn't even have his knife out when they got out of the car, you can see their stance and reaction change as soon as they see him pull it out. Had the call been for man with a knife instead of shoplifter they probably would have parked further back and approached differently, but they can only go with what knowledge they have. He refuses to listen when told to drop the knife and and halt, instead he continues to come toward the officers- less than 13 seconds from pulling out the knife (after they exited the vehicle) to getting so close and still closing, within less than 2 seconds from reaching one, that shooting was the only option.

The guy wanted cops to shoot him, and set up a situation where he gave them no choice. Probably a worst case scenario for trying deescalation when the other party wants the exact opposite.

It just took you longer to read this than it did for the whole thing to go down. Think about that. Would you be able to handle that? What could you have done differently in that amount of time?

[Erose999]

45. Why was it necessary to escalate force though? Who in that video was in any immediate danger?

[Lee-Lee]

46. Who was in danger?

The cop on the left, who had an erratic man coming at him with a knife in his hand.

[Lee-Lee]

84. Who was in danger

he was approaching the officers with a knife in his hand and was within seconds of reaching one.

I bet if I came at you like that with a knife after acting erractic and yelling "shoot me" you wouldn't be sitting there asking me if I wanted a cookie.

[polly7]

89. So, he's not actually 'waving' the knife anymore?

Yelling 'shoot me' isn't cause for anyone with functioning gray matter to actually do it, and he wasn't approaching them, it looked like he was walking around them when they shot the first time and knocked him down 'within seconds reach' then immediately emptied the rest of their bullets into him. Did they pause at all and see if the knife had fallen from his hand - if he'd been disarmed? Nope! They just shot until they knew he'd be dead. Then cuffed him .......... why??? To make it appear as if they'd been rolling around on the pavement with him or something? Why cuff a dead man? CYA, that's why.

[Travis_0004]

95. many departments dont allow tazers

[pnwmom]

98. He wasn't "swinging" the knife. And he was no threat at all after the first gun shot.

They weren't involved in a shoot-out with him. A single shot would have put him down. Everything after that was excessive.

[polly7]

33. You told me he was waving it at them.

I still don't see it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5423872

[Lee-Lee]

34. Check you glasses

its in his right hand, held out in front going side to side.

[polly7]

35. I don't wear glasses, but his arm doesn't appear to me to be moving from side to side at all. nt.

[cwydro]

22. I don't understand

why they didn't taze him.

I'm glad this is on video

[Travis_0004]

28. because they didnt have tazers

Tazers can kill people too. A lot of police departments dont carry them

[Punkingal]

104. Tazers can kill people????

Oh right, let's don't have tasers...we MIGHT kill someone. Let's just rely on our guns, which we KNOW will kill them.

[FarPoint]

29. This man was mentally I'll.....

I saw no attempt to control the situation. Hospital emergency rooms and psychiatric units deal daily with such clients and can either talk them through or retstrain them even with a weapon. These foolish cops are ignorant and careless.

They should never carry a gun, ever. They have the training to actually protect and serve. They protected no one. He was harmless prior to the arrival of the gun happy cops.

[iscooterliberally]

32. +1

This video is a prime example of how terrible our nations laws and law enforcement is in general. It's all shoot first, and don't bother to ask any questions later. With cops like this, who needs bad guys? If these cops had any compassion at all this outcome would have been much better.

[Piscatarian]

30. If they had to shoot him

why not shoot him in the legs? They didn't have to kill him. I heard nine shots and only one shot in a leg would have stopped him.

It seems that some cops don't want to miss a chance at killing someone if they can get away with it like that idiot cop who shot the sixteen year old who took his dads truck and wouldn't respond to the cop. He was just sitting in the truck and the cop shot him six time and killed him.

[Michigander_Life]

31. Shooting to wound is inconsistent with proper police training and procedure

A leg is a small, often highly mobile target. During a high-adrenaline situation, accuracy is greatly reduced. The probability of stopping the thread is greatly reduced and thus police training instructs officers to shoot for center mass until the threat ceases to be a threat.

[Kingofalldems]

44. Rec'd your own thread I see.

[Michigander_Life]

47. I'm awesome

[uponit7771]

49. The hips aren't those attributes though... police need to be more accurate

[pnwmom]

101. Neither is shooting more bullets than you need to. He wasn't armed with a gun so he wasn't

shooting back. So after he collapsed, why did they continue to pump bullets into his body?

Is that consistent with proper police training and procedure?

[immoderate]

70. Hopalong Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Annie Oakley, even Tonto could shoot the weapon...

... out of his hand. I wonder why no real cop ever does that.

--imm

[uponit7771]

48. They couldn't shoot him in the legs? tia

[ksoze]

50. Center Mass

Training is simple - no time for wild west gunfighter shows - immobilize the threat quickly. ame training everywhere, not just Missouri.

[uponit7771]

52. Center mass is military training... I remember that from boot camp

[polly7]

61. I have family in the rcmp ..... I remember hearing of how, in basic training

and ongoing training all the time how much practice they spent shooting and how proud they were of how well they did. Why bother at all with it if all you have to do is aim at a person's chest in a situation clearly not life-threatening to anyone? The bystanders were nowhere near, the police were within 2 seconds of being able to retreat back into their car and try to understand what was going on with him. Why didn't they try? Is that no longer even a consideration?

I'm sorry, but seeing these two young men gunned down has really bothered me. I don't see any reason for it in either case, and it's horrifying to me that their lives meant so little that alternate responses weren't even on the radar.

[ksoze]

62. Two different shootings

For this thead - we do not know where bystanders were - do we know there are not houses or businesses directly behind where they shot? Saying the cops could retreat in their car in two seconds does little to protect anyone from a man wielding a knife saying kill me. I suspect if the cops ran and hid in the car as suggested and he stabbed a bystander, there would be double the threads on here right now.

[polly7]

64. I can see where the bystanders are in the video.

The man wasn't wielding a knife until the cops got out of their vehicle with gun in hand, and then he simply was holding it - not 'waving' it,or swinging it, as was stated above. The bystanders weren't near him, he'd already told them to stay away. Do you really see retreating back into their car as 'hiding'? I'd call it instead, being concerned for not only their own welfare - but his as well while taking at least a few seconds to assess the situation and try something to minimize the chance that 'anyone' would die? Is that really so difficult to do?

Did the 9 shots fired off instantly not have the capacity to ricochet off pavement and hit a bystander or go through a house or business?

[pnwmom]

103. This is army training. He's not the enemy. Why pump multiple bullets into him after

this CITIZEN was already immobilized?

[Michigander_Life]

51. No, that isn't proper police procedure for reasons listed in this thread.

[uponit7771]

56. ... center mass is military lingo... I'm seeing all kinds of wrongs with this thinking

[Michigander_Life]

59. The reasons apply for LE as well

Shooting for anything but center mass will greatly reduce the chance of successfully stopping the threat before someone killed or seriously injured. Try to shoot a small moving target while after you have just completed a 100 yard sprint (to simulate the adrenaline dump, increased heart rate and breathing that would be present in a real deadly force encounter).

[Warpy]

76. These cops didn't even try to talk him down

They exited the squad car drawing their weapons and started shooting when they saw the knife.

Talking someone down means taking a step back so he knows you're not an immediate threat and starting to talk about what's bugging him.

This looks like suicide by cop and the cops in this case were only too happy to oblige.

[JJChambers]

83. Did you not hear them talking?

They pleaded with him to drop the knife.

[Warpy]

87. I heard an order

This is not how you talk a disturbed and possibly suicidal person down.

[Lee-Lee]

92. Tell me

In around 15 seconds since you got there, dispatched to a shoplifter with no mention of mental illness, when the man pulls a knife and comes at you erratically, at what point do you do the psychoanalysis and evaluation and determine if it is a result of being mentally ill or high or drunk or something else so you deal with him exactly as diagnosis demands?

[Warpy]

93. When he charges.

He didn't.

[ret5hd]

77. I am so sorry for the disturbance in you pretty little world.

We will try to keep such occurrences to a minimum.

[Catherine Vincent]

88. how sad

Didn't try to talk him into dropping whatever he had. The police arrive and 10 seconds later...several shots.

[JJChambers]

94. Actually you can hear them asking him to drop the knife as he is approaching them

[Justice]

90. He put the cans down on the curb and waited for the police to arrive - he knew what he was doing.

Tragic - but he seemed to know what he was doing - wanted police to come and then approached them with a knife.

Edited to add that the people who called 911 expressed regret - they were upset that he stole the drinks but didn't want him killed. Said that community policing would help - as there police would know the man (who was well known to be mentally ill) and perhaps treat him differently.

[Boom Sound 416]

100. No. I don't think he was shot over two cans of soda.

[Kablooie]

105. Anyone who doesn't follow police instructions is asking for trouble.

I don't condone the shooting but I was always indoctrinated since I was a child that if a policeman orders you do do something you do it even if you don't agree with him.
You don't want to antagonize him specifically because it can escalate the danger of the situation.
This guy was ordered to do something but appeared to ignore the orders so either he was on drugs or he deliberately wanted to escalate the situation.

It seems wrong, though that non lethal methods of control aren't available in this type of situation.