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Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:03 PM Aug 2014

Morals are based on empathy not religion

I'm sick and tired of hearing religious people say that religion is the reason for morality in our world, and without it, people can do whatever they to whoever they want. That's why after school shootings, people like Mike Huckabee blame taking God out of the classroom.

I find this argument ridiculous. We've seen devoutly religious people commit all manner of horrific acts from child rape to beheadings. Religion does not create morality, empathy does.

When you care about the physical, emotional, health, and well-being of other people, then you have the basis of being a moral person. If you empathize and feel sorry for someone who was robbed, then you're not likely to rob someone else.

Am I wrong here?

133 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Morals are based on empathy not religion (Original Post) Yavin4 Aug 2014 OP
all gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. hobbit709 Aug 2014 #1
Heinlein Android3.14 Aug 2014 #17
Not the ones I allow to play in my sandbox tavalon Aug 2014 #72
^== Wow. IdaBriggs Aug 2014 #89
Just look at Trelane. Archae Aug 2014 #76
I totally agree with you! Delmette Aug 2014 #2
Welcome to DU, Delmette! calimary Aug 2014 #59
ABSOLUTELY correct! elleng Aug 2014 #3
Thank you! That's a great answer. Arkansas Granny Aug 2014 #4
And it is only their religion too not even just being religious . They like to decide what is lunasun Aug 2014 #5
I don't know what makes people behave well, but I know that some people merrily Aug 2014 #6
But if you base your morality on fear of Hell, and your "good works" on getting you into Heaven, maddiemom Aug 2014 #46
Most religions, especially chritianity offer a smorgasboard of morals allowing believers to A Simple Game Aug 2014 #90
No, you're right on the money Warpy Aug 2014 #7
^ nt littlemissmartypants Aug 2014 #75
Exactly correct cpwm17 Aug 2014 #8
You are correct. djean111 Aug 2014 #9
What, you want people running around Jackpine Radical Aug 2014 #24
I think we worship corporate logos now. :-O djean111 Aug 2014 #28
That secular=immoral bullshit was just posted in an OP on good ol' progressive DU. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #10
Richard Dawkins actually is a total dickhead. Crunchy Frog Aug 2014 #47
Stole my line Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #127
"Bigoted" seems a bit of a stretch. bvf Aug 2014 #73
I think he's honest to a fault.. defacto7 Aug 2014 #82
I agree. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #11
Acts of faith... dangin Aug 2014 #12
Absolutely. There is now plenty of social cognitive neuroscience to back you up on this. n/t RufusTFirefly Aug 2014 #13
What if we figured out a drug that we could give to people to make them feel empathy. Yavin4 Aug 2014 #22
Apparently we already have one - MDMA. GliderGuider Aug 2014 #34
It sounds right, but defacto7 Aug 2014 #84
Interesting question Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #128
re: "We've seen devoutly religious people commit all manner of horrific acts" thesquanderer Aug 2014 #14
some religious people azureblue Aug 2014 #83
“Kindness should become the natural way of life, not the exception.” ― Gautama Buddha Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2014 #15
Relevant quote: trotsky Aug 2014 #16
And religion is a great tool for the destruction of empathy. Bluenorthwest Aug 2014 #18
You Are Correct, Sir or Madam! cer7711 Aug 2014 #19
A quote from a Professor I had way back in 1975.......... mrmpa Aug 2014 #20
Where do morals come from? Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #21
Agree. phil89 Aug 2014 #23
Morals are socially constructed. Iron Man Aug 2014 #25
Morals are innate in the same way language is bhikkhu Aug 2014 #79
Morals are not innate. Iron Man Aug 2014 #109
The details vary, but morality itself is innate in every individual bhikkhu Aug 2014 #119
You're wrong. Iron Man Aug 2014 #122
Without social interaction, a developing mind withers bhikkhu Aug 2014 #129
No, you are absolutely right n/t War Horse Aug 2014 #26
You are right. In facts, some religions interfere with natural empathy. Lex Aug 2014 #27
I think Abe Lincoln said: "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my rhett o rick Aug 2014 #29
Love this! passiveporcupine Aug 2014 #58
That sums up my sentiments exactly. SunSeeker Aug 2014 #116
Religion is a scam, but JEB Aug 2014 #30
Religion is a threat and a control tool NightWatcher Aug 2014 #43
Well said. nt raccoon Aug 2014 #48
"Control tool" -- Yes, this. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #50
Ina society without the threat of hell for doing bad deeds treestar Aug 2014 #88
Correct! I'm not religious. As I've explained in RL, I don't get my morals from religion, I ChisolmTrailDem Aug 2014 #31
Religion = the maniipulation of the masses ReRe Aug 2014 #32
Adam Smith certainly thought so. rogerashton Aug 2014 #33
I hope there are other factors to depend on beyond either religion or empathy TheKentuckian Aug 2014 #35
Yes! I was raised with an excellent moral compus, but very little religion. maddiemom Aug 2014 #36
You're correct. The lack of empathy is very apparent in people like Huck. sinkingfeeling Aug 2014 #37
It's amazing that someone would actually believe that Dont call me Shirley Aug 2014 #38
absolutely right! bigtonka Aug 2014 #39
Empathy is subjective. Morality, if it has any claim upon a person, is not. nt Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2014 #40
Christianity started with a murder albino65 Aug 2014 #41
No, you are not wrong. hamsterjill Aug 2014 #42
And what does that tell you about some religions where everywhere in their texts it.... Tikki Aug 2014 #44
Empathy seems a mammalian trait to me... ymetca Aug 2014 #45
Congratulations. what are you going to do Tribalceltic Aug 2014 #49
You are correct. Helen Borg Aug 2014 #51
You're absolutely right IMO. bvf Aug 2014 #52
Often Christian morals are founded on fear of punishment instead of empathy. Kablooie Aug 2014 #53
They may not be inherently immoral in the absence bvf Aug 2014 #67
I don't quite agree, but yours is a lot closer to my point of view than Ayn Rand's nonsense Jack Rabbit Aug 2014 #54
Socialism existed in various human societies around the globe long before Karl Marx Yavin4 Aug 2014 #60
It's very primitive socialism, suited to hunter/gatherer societies. Jack Rabbit Aug 2014 #62
Here's religious "morals." Group suicide of more than 900 people, Jonestown: blkmusclmachine Aug 2014 #55
^ http://www.kk.org/truefilms/archives/Jonestown1.jpg ^ blkmusclmachine Aug 2014 #56
I can only rec this thread once, goddamit! Iggo Aug 2014 #57
I'll go you one better, religions are based on morals... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #61
That was well put. flying rabbit Aug 2014 #63
You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! nt LiberalElite Aug 2014 #64
The human species has survived because of cooperation. From birth, we're dependent valerief Aug 2014 #65
I like that, Yavin.. simple and true. Cha Aug 2014 #66
You're not wrong at all EvolveOrConvolve Aug 2014 #68
I think morality is innate in the human heart, something everyone is born with. Voice for Peace Aug 2014 #69
And Japan has a small fraction of the crime our Christian nation does. ErikJ Aug 2014 #70
I totally agree with the OP however comparing Japan to the US on this issue snagglepuss Aug 2014 #92
I have said this here before...empathy develops vanlassie Aug 2014 #71
organized religion has never been about morals, it is about convincing the masses to whereisjustice Aug 2014 #74
You should look up the word "empathy" flvegan Aug 2014 #77
True - morality is a universal human characteristic bhikkhu Aug 2014 #78
And real religion is based on empathy, too MannyGoldstein Aug 2014 #80
Bollocks. All religions talk a good talk but where is that stellar empathy when snagglepuss Aug 2014 #93
Hence the "real" in my title MannyGoldstein Aug 2014 #110
But real Judaism has a god that promotes warfare, who frames the world snagglepuss Aug 2014 #118
What is there to interpret? MannyGoldstein Aug 2014 #124
A big argument between men. Where's the voice of women? That said I do esteem the value snagglepuss Aug 2014 #130
I think most of it started as a means of control. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #132
correct, and-- azureblue Aug 2014 #81
I don't think you are wrong. defacto7 Aug 2014 #85
nope. you're right. barbtries Aug 2014 #86
You are not wrong. Kicked and recommended. Enthusiast Aug 2014 #87
I agree ChristianSocialist Aug 2014 #91
We definitely should abolish faith-based funding and there s/b no restrictions valerief Aug 2014 #100
So, what if empathy isn't that common, really? malthaussen Aug 2014 #94
Your argument proves my point Yavin4 Aug 2014 #98
So true, hifiguy Aug 2014 #95
No. Need both. We know some lack empathy. Festivito Aug 2014 #96
You don't need religion for that. Hissyspit Aug 2014 #107
Neither you nor the op describe what is needed. Festivito Aug 2014 #111
Religion has nothing to do with morality. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #112
How about: yes, it does. Festivito Aug 2014 #121
Uhhh yeeeeah. No. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #123
Uhhh, yeeeeeah, yes. Festivito Aug 2014 #125
And the immoral aspects of religions? Hissyspit Aug 2014 #117
Religions can become corrupted. Festivito Aug 2014 #120
Absolutely true! Maineman Aug 2014 #97
To be fair, there are positive examples of religions as well. Yavin4 Aug 2014 #99
If you want to prove it, just ask a relgious person why they don't stone their neighbor for Marr Aug 2014 #101
Morals are an expression of our investing in people, DesertFaux Aug 2014 #102
You are so true!! Perfect! hue Aug 2014 #103
Yes you are wrong.. LW1977 Aug 2014 #104
How is he wrong? Hissyspit Aug 2014 #106
Pat Robertson is religious. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #113
Empathy is what Christianity's "Golden Rule" tries (and fails) to inculcate. SunSeeker Aug 2014 #105
Morals are based on empathy not religion The CCC Aug 2014 #108
I'd agree. Some of the most Christian people I have met aren't Christians. raouldukelives Aug 2014 #114
Exactly right . Empathy was expressed in the saying by Jesus " do unto others as you would have them geretogo Aug 2014 #115
No, you're not wrong Prophet 451 Aug 2014 #126
You are not wrong fadedrose Aug 2014 #131
... napkinz Aug 2014 #133

tavalon

(27,985 posts)
72. Not the ones I allow to play in my sandbox
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:38 PM
Aug 2014

I specifically don't include Yahweh, because he doesn't play well with others. I don't know how his son turned out so well.

calimary

(81,220 posts)
59. Welcome to DU, Delmette!
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 05:37 PM
Aug 2014

Glad you're here! Sure seems logical to me. It's another word for walking-a-mile-in-the-other-guy's-shoes. You can sympathize, and that helps, but that's more passive, uninvolved personally, at a distance (sometimes close, sometimes not so much), and basically disconnected. When you empathize, it's strictly active-mode. Up-close-'n'-personal. Because you've lived it, breathed it, walked it, struggled with it personally, and seen it from the inside, not the outside.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
5. And it is only their religion too not even just being religious . They like to decide what is
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:11 PM
Aug 2014

Moral also

merrily

(45,251 posts)
6. I don't know what makes people behave well, but I know that some people
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:11 PM
Aug 2014

who profess to be very religious behave well and some who profess to be religious behave very badly. And the same is true of people who profess to be agnostics or atheists.

Conclusion. Religion is not the be all and end all either of behaving well or of behaving badly.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
46. But if you base your morality on fear of Hell, and your "good works" on getting you into Heaven,
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 04:02 PM
Aug 2014

you obviously don't believe in a god that gives you self-determination. But wait, isn't determination giving you the choice between Heaven or Hell? Or does it mean an open mind about others. Sorry, I'm confusing myself.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
90. Most religions, especially chritianity offer a smorgasboard of morals allowing believers to
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 08:08 AM
Aug 2014

pick and choose those that suit them, or justify their actions. They may choose good ones or bad ones, it really is up to the person.

Atheists and agnostics on the other hand don't have as many choices, they can go with what is lawful and common sense for good morals, but for the bad morals it gets more complicated. For bad morals they have to drop their drawers, bend over, reach behind themselves and pull.

Warpy

(111,245 posts)
7. No, you're right on the money
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:14 PM
Aug 2014

People who lack empathy are the bullies and other psychopaths and their numbers are increasing because nobody's around to teach them empathy when they're kiddies.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
8. Exactly correct
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:17 PM
Aug 2014

Morals are based on the Golden Rule. Religions often are based on selfishness (not always.)

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
9. You are correct.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:17 PM
Aug 2014

For those who would have no moral compass without religion telling them what is right and what is wrong, then I guess religion is a good thing.
As an atheist, I cannot imagine anyone at all really needing those ten commandments.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
10. That secular=immoral bullshit was just posted in an OP on good ol' progressive DU.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:22 PM
Aug 2014
Richard Dawkins: bigoted against those with Down's syndrome? [View all]
Full title: Richard Dawkins on babies with Down Syndrome: 'Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world'

Budding atheists wondering whether Richard Dawkins is in need of a little time away from Twitter to reflect on the past few weeks are about to have their (lack of) prayers answered.

The philosopher has managed to go one step further than his controversial comments on ‘date rape versus stranger rape’ to voice his opinions on what it would be ethical for a mother who is informed that her unborn child has Down Syndrome to do.

He started off his conversation with followers ethically enough, highlighting the plight of women in Ireland, where abortion is illegal, in light of the recent reports of the country’s refusal to provide a safe abortion to a suicidal rape victim. She was forced to give birth.

“Ireland is a civilised country except in this 1 area,” he tweeted, adding “You'd think the Roman Church would have lost all influence,” to caption a link to a similar article.

full: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/richard-dawkins-on-babies-with-down-syndrome-abort-it-and-try-again-it-would-be-immoral-to-bring-it-into-the-world-9681549.html

UGH. this is why people associate secular thought with lack of morality.



I was reply #86:

"this is why people associate secular thought with lack of morality" -- give me a fucking break!

So what if I pointed to the RCC's massive child rape/coverup, its Magdalene laundries and its fight against birth control and gay marriage, organized Christianity's suppression of women and gays, Islam's pushing of misogyny and jihad, the Crusades, and a thousand other religious-instituted horrors and religious wars over stupid superstition, as well as the religious suppression of scientific research that could save and improve countless lives and said "UGH. this is why people associate religious thought with lack of morality" ? Because that would be a FAR MORE justified sentiment. Religion thought has brought ignorance, suppression and idiocy to the planet for centuries and humanity would be far better off without its nonsense.

Crunchy Frog

(26,579 posts)
47. Richard Dawkins actually is a total dickhead.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 04:05 PM
Aug 2014

It's just that it has nothing to do with his being an atheist.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
73. "Bigoted" seems a bit of a stretch.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:41 PM
Aug 2014

"Compassionate--if irritatingly matter-of-fact" would strike me as closer to the mark.

Bracing for the flame. . .

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
82. I think he's honest to a fault..
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:42 AM
Aug 2014

and honesty is not something people like to hear let alone utter. Yeah, he's added a bit too much information at times and he is easily taken out of context, but I respect someone who says what he thinks.

dangin

(148 posts)
12. Acts of faith...
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:25 PM
Aug 2014

Beheading journalist.
Flying plane into buildings.
IEDs
Female circumcision
Snake handling
Refusing blood transfusions that would save your life.
Picketing funerals
Believing in demons
And on and on.

The stoopid is with them...

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
22. What if we figured out a drug that we could give to people to make them feel empathy.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:56 PM
Aug 2014

We find that portion of the brain that controls empathy, and we create a drug that makes people feel empathy towards others.

What impact do you think that would have on the world?

defacto7

(13,485 posts)
84. It sounds right, but
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 02:04 AM
Aug 2014

wouldn't sheer empathy be relative? Should someone have pure unbridled empathy? E.g. IS? Should we have empathy for ISIS? Should we empathize with and have pro-social behavior with murderers?

I would think if someone was brought up in a certain culture, their capacity for empathy would be programmed by that culture and if that culture had what most of us call anti-social behavior, would that not be their empathy?

Maybe I'm missing something.... I've done that before.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
128. Interesting question
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 03:14 AM
Aug 2014

Thing is, the people who most need such a drug are the least likely to take it. And if you force them to take it, you're getting into Clockwork Orange territory.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
14. re: "We've seen devoutly religious people commit all manner of horrific acts"
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:38 PM
Aug 2014

and conversely, atheists who treat everyone well.

So yup, no correlation at all.

azureblue

(2,146 posts)
83. some religious people
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:42 AM
Aug 2014

have in common a total suspension of reality and a blind belief in ideology, that has detached them from reality and humanity. They see the world through the dogma of their faith, rather than see it world as it is.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
16. Relevant quote:
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:40 PM
Aug 2014

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." -- Albert Einstein

mrmpa

(4,033 posts)
20. A quote from a Professor I had way back in 1975..........
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:52 PM
Aug 2014

He was an Adjunct (real job was a Homicide Detective), the class was "Homicide", the quote was......

"Law in and of itself is moral, however individual morality cannot and must not constitute law".

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
21. Where do morals come from?
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:55 PM
Aug 2014

There is interesting material that suggests morals are evolutionary. Many say they come from their faith in a God(s) as the teachings on how to be a good person. Curious still...

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
23. Agree.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:57 PM
Aug 2014

It always feels odd to hear that people think we cant figure out how to treat others without an ancient book which regulates slavery, cheerfully uses a rainbow as a promise that we're free from any genocidal floods, and that a human sacrifice absolves us of any guilt. Sorry for the run on sentence but I'm on a phone

 

Iron Man

(183 posts)
25. Morals are socially constructed.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:05 PM
Aug 2014

Things labeled as moral are considered moral because our society says they are.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
79. Morals are innate in the same way language is
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:20 AM
Aug 2014

its a big part of how we relate to others. One might as well say "society is socially constructed".

 

Iron Man

(183 posts)
109. Morals are not innate.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:43 PM
Aug 2014

Someone somewhere during the early years of human evolution decided upon what was good and what was bad in order to control early humans. It probably set up the first religion.

They are socially constructed. What our culture may find immoral is moral in another culture.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
119. The details vary, but morality itself is innate in every individual
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 08:39 PM
Aug 2014

and, therefore, in every culture. It doesn't matter that one culture has a list of behaviors that are "right" and a list of behaviors that are "wrong", while another culture will have a substantially different list; what matters is that every culture and every person has a list.

That's what is meant by innate - we're born with a sense of right and wrong, it just makes sense to us, and its built in to how we think.

 

Iron Man

(183 posts)
122. You're wrong.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 10:00 PM
Aug 2014

If a child is born and taken away and raised by itself in a room, she/he will not have morals. They're only taught what is morally right/wrong by parents, grandparents, and teachers from an early age.

Morals are not innate.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
129. Without social interaction, a developing mind withers
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 04:36 AM
Aug 2014

its problematic to look at damage and say that's the natural state.

With social interaction, without exception, morality manifests as a normal human element.

We aren't blank slates at any point; every attempt at social engineering that began with that notion, that humans can be somehow cured of human nature and "improved", has failed with either a bang or a wimper. Understanding people is essential.

Lex

(34,108 posts)
27. You are right. In facts, some religions interfere with natural empathy.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:06 PM
Aug 2014

They subvert it for their own gain, usually power or money.



 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
29. I think Abe Lincoln said: "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:08 PM
Aug 2014

religion." He was asked why he didn't attend church. He responded that if you were to show him a church that only taught the Golden Rule and followed it, he would attend.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
116. That sums up my sentiments exactly.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 03:07 PM
Aug 2014

Do you remember where you read that about Lincoln or have a link for that? I would love to read more...

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
43. Religion is a threat and a control tool
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:54 PM
Aug 2014

Be nice or spend the afterlife in a lake of fire.

Don't seek justice in this life and you'll get a mansion on streets of gold after you die. That's right, there's no need to rise up against unfair kings. God put them there and if you work hard and bow your head at night, you'll get a pass into heaven. It's God's plan that your life sucks, so bend over, take it, and pray that you'll get your golden mansion in the sky after you die.

Trust me and give me 10% of your money.


And the suckers are still falling for it.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
50. "Control tool" -- Yes, this.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 04:17 PM
Aug 2014

The grand poohbahs of the major religions have long used threat and fear to keep the wimminfolks in line and to enrich their own coffers. The Big Hats of the RCC sitting on their piles of gold are a salient example of this, as are the Islamic imams who are hell bent (pun intended) on making sure women are treated like dirt at all times.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
88. Ina society without the threat of hell for doing bad deeds
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 05:40 AM
Aug 2014

You do have to wonder. Old people could be dangerous, realizing they have nothing to lose by paying off old scores. As it is, people who want to die do sometimes take others out with them, knowing there is now nothing to lose.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
31. Correct! I'm not religious. As I've explained in RL, I don't get my morals from religion, I
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:11 PM
Aug 2014

get it from my empathy for other living beings and from common sense values of what is good and instinct about what is bad.

Some of the religious ones look at me like I grew horns and a forked tongue right before their eyes.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
35. I hope there are other factors to depend on beyond either religion or empathy
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:27 PM
Aug 2014

because empathy is not a strong suit of the species and religion has no observable "market dominance" in this area and is the excuse for much that is the polar opposite of moral.

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
36. Yes! I was raised with an excellent moral compus, but very little religion.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:40 PM
Aug 2014

My parents took me to (Protestant) church on and off when I was pre-school and early elementary. They sent me to "Bible School" for a summer or two. Then they turned me loose. I occasionally went to various churches on and off with friends, just out of curiosity. I never did take up a religion, but was raised with very humanistic moral and sane values. My daughter has been raised the same way, but is technically Catholic. When she started school, she felt left out, not having a religion. When she expressed an interest, her father, a very lapsed Catholic, expressed an interest in putting her through the Catholic process. I had no objection. Now in her thirties, she loves Catholic ceremony on holidays, but her very good instincts about others aren't due to the Church. In retrospect, I think many kids in more agnostic homes are influenced by the fact that classmates in early school have more definite religion. Very understandable. Too many religions, however, do promote various harmful smugness against others who disagree with their particular prejudices. The open minds of Atheists and Agnostics are more beneficial to society, although some "Christians" complain that they are being persecuted by the former. I often think that such "Christians"equate disagreement with persecution.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
38. It's amazing that someone would actually believe that
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:43 PM
Aug 2014

Because they profess their belief in another person, they are absolved of any and all wrongdoing, past, present and future.

No invisible savior is going to save you from your "sins", only you alone can do that.

 

albino65

(484 posts)
41. Christianity started with a murder
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:50 PM
Aug 2014

Then the perps got remorse and said "god" made us do it. Then they made up a story up to justify it (plagiarizing older religions significantly), wrote some down, picked the stuff they eventually liked, and called it a religion. They found it was an economic goldmine and have been using it as an excuse to enslave, persecute, and kill ever since. There is nothing moral about it.

hamsterjill

(15,220 posts)
42. No, you are not wrong.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:52 PM
Aug 2014

You are correct.

I'm a Christian who has friends of many differing faiths, as well as friends that do not have a belief at all. We all have morals that we live by and it has nothing to do with our religious faith, but rather the idea that we treat people as we'd like to be treated. More the "golden rule" type of thing than anything else.

Morality is certainly NOT limited to Christian belief.

Tikki

(14,557 posts)
44. And what does that tell you about some religions where everywhere in their texts it....
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:56 PM
Aug 2014

demands that the followers be good and kind and yet they are not good and kind, at all.

Tikki

ymetca

(1,182 posts)
45. Empathy seems a mammalian trait to me...
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:58 PM
Aug 2014

... while religion appears more connected to "the Word"; or the mystery of how humans began using laryngeal-muscular sounds to associate, mapping neurological experiences, thus codifying them into something that can be passed onto another, without the other actually having experienced the same neurological events.

"I hunted deer" becomes a tale, a song, a cave drawing, which then is used to teach the next generation how you hunted deer. Then it all becomes a belief system. The map becomes the territory.

We live inside our language about reality. Language appears, in essence, to be our collective "religion".

But a mother bear can show empathy...

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
52. You're absolutely right IMO.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 04:43 PM
Aug 2014

Doing the right thing out of recognition of a fellow human being, as opposed to doing it because your omnipotent invisible friend will hurt you if you don't, seems to be the way to go.



Kablooie

(18,625 posts)
53. Often Christian morals are founded on fear of punishment instead of empathy.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 04:52 PM
Aug 2014

They are afraid of God punishing them for transgressions so they behave.

These are the people who say religion is needed for moral behavior because they feel that if they were left to their own devices they wouldn't be moral. Essentially selfishness, the fear of something bad happening to yourself, is the only thing that makes them act morally.

For these people, perhaps religion is necessary because at core they are immoral and need the external fear of religion to make them behave.

 

bvf

(6,604 posts)
67. They may not be inherently immoral in the absence
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 10:35 PM
Aug 2014

of belief. More's the pity. What religion maintains that you can be a good person of equal standing without it? My guess is zero.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
54. I don't quite agree, but yours is a lot closer to my point of view than Ayn Rand's nonsense
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 05:03 PM
Aug 2014

My view of the world is through the lens of Rousseau, specifically his dichotomy of the natural and social orders of things.

Our species is not cursed with original sin, as Christian doctrine holds, but there is certainly no evidence of the opposite, perhaps we should call it original virtue, which seems good for selling overpriced paperbacks in a new age bookstore, but little else. Since I've mention Ayn Rand, an overrated hack novelist and quack philosopher, her ideas about human nature are closer to the Christian doctrine of original sin, except that she thinks that the emotions and behavior Christians enumerate as sins are virtues.

To give that lady her due, however, greed and selfishness do fill a positive role, along with some of our more aggressive traits that get out of hand too often. If we were created by a god, then it created us, like it created every other species, to survive for at least for time on this planet while it is still inhabitable.

Nevertheless, Ms Rand's view of human nature is at best a half truth. Her heroes are "born without the ability to feel others." Such a person usually ends up committing criminal acts, like a serial killer. If her novels don't ring true to most of us, that is the reason: her heroes aren't like most of us, and we don't hold them up as people to be admired. That ability to feel others is as much a natural part of us as greed, selfishness and aggressive behavior. Primitive humans live in groups and hunt in packs. A human with no ability to feel others would not survive very long in a state of nature. He would be a lone hunter. No one would do his hunting for him or look after his health if he were laid up for a while with the flu or if he catches a cold that digresses into pneumonia. He might pass on his genes if he can find a mate who's as sick as he is, as happens in Ms Rand's novels such as, for instance, with Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart in Atlas Shrugged.

While it is true that we can be characterized as being greedy and selfish, there is a reason we don't often think that those are part of our better nature. Humans are also, by nature, a social animal. By nature, we reach out to our fellow humans. One can call that empathy. It's a good word for it, although I think empathy means something more, something less clinical or academic, but something warmer. If we didn't do that, we would have become extinct long ago. A slow runner (compared to a hungry leopard) and poor tree climber (compared to a frightened monkey) had to have something else going for it in order to have been as successful as we have been. A good part of this might have been that magnificent brain of ours.

Do I hear the Objectivists chortling? Do they really think a lone human hunter could have survived in a state of nature more than a winter or two by himself and his brain? No, he would not have. He would not have lived long enough to become a hunter. Most of human cerebral development takes place outside the womb, after birth. Our childhood comprises about the first 20% of our life span. It is necessary for our survival to the age of puberty that we be nurtured by other, older humans. Again, it is natural for humans to live in groups. If it were not, few of us would survive childhood and the likelihood we would be extinct by now would be rather high. Therefore, we have the family, the village, the tribe, the community, or if one wishes to use some more general term, society. Human society cannot be separated from our nature. It is part of us.

True, it comes at a cost, such as limitations on individual freedom. Part of that limitation is what we call morality, that is, the rules by which we agree to live in a particular group. Believers in the Abrahamic god assert that morality comes from their god. I don't agree with them. People who have never heard of that particular god still live in groups that have rules by which they live. A society could not function well if we allowed any individual to resolve a dispute with another by killing him. Nobody needs a god to furnish a prophet with a stone tablet saying so in order to know this. Even Pharaoh, who most certainly did not believe in the Abrahamic god, enforced laws prohibiting murder and theft.

Morality, in my view, grows out of a social pragmatism growing, in turn, from our natural need to live in groups. I don't think that need is the same thing as empathy, but it is related to it. Empathy is something like an elaboration on that need. We don't really need empathy for survival, but it makes the world a more pleasant place.

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
60. Socialism existed in various human societies around the globe long before Karl Marx
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 05:44 PM
Aug 2014

In fact, socialist societies are more common than any other form of society in human history.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
62. It's very primitive socialism, suited to hunter/gatherer societies.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 06:25 PM
Aug 2014

Industrial or post-industrial socialism would be a lot more complicated.

Nevertheless, another part of my as yet unwritten dissertation holds that there is no natural right to own private property; that's because there is no private property in a state of nature. All "property" in a natural society is personal property, such as the shirt on your back. Owning a shirt is a little different than owning a steam engine.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
61. I'll go you one better, religions are based on morals...
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 06:19 PM
Aug 2014

....explains their similarities,...don't it....

valerief

(53,235 posts)
65. The human species has survived because of cooperation. From birth, we're dependent
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 10:01 PM
Aug 2014

on other humans. We're no more than out-of-the-womb fetuses then. That holds true throughout out lifetimes. Sustained cooperation can't occur without empathy. Even psychopaths fake empathy to adapt to the cooperative requirement. We see where fake empathy takes us by witnessing big biz CEO behavior. It's killing our species. Only genuine empathy can save our species.

Religion is a tool of the ruling class to manipulate the masses. It has nothing to do with empathy.

EvolveOrConvolve

(6,452 posts)
68. You're not wrong at all
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 10:39 PM
Aug 2014

Our prisons are filled with the devout, and there's plenty of evidence that non-believers are good people. Dickholes like Mike Huckabee get off on the religious power-trip. It provides the illusion of control over things of which he's scared shitless. It's all about the fear with the true believers.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
69. I think morality is innate in the human heart, something everyone is born with.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 10:55 PM
Aug 2014

People interfere with this morality, while it is still potential.

Well meaning adults instruct the children wrongly -- so that
instead of looking inward for right and wrong, they are taught
to mistrust themselves, and follow external experts or
authorities, who may or may not be immoral; more often
than not, they are.

But the true morality -- it is innate! Not constrained by
rules, definitions, or even language. It is a living part of
us, alive and spontaneous as each moment requires.

And I think, real empathy is part of it, that part of us
which is able to feel. The heart leans toward compassion,
patience, peace, and fun. Morality is all in there.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
70. And Japan has a small fraction of the crime our Christian nation does.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:11 PM
Aug 2014

and they are a largely Buddhist nation. And 75% of the prisoners in the US are Christian yet only 1 out of 5000 are atheist.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
92. I totally agree with the OP however comparing Japan to the US on this issue
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 10:31 AM
Aug 2014

is comparing apples to oranges. Japan is one of the most xenophobic countries. Monocultures tend to have strong social cohesion and low crime rates.

vanlassie

(5,670 posts)
71. I have said this here before...empathy develops
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:26 PM
Aug 2014

or doesn't as a result if the way the child is treated in the first few years if life. If his needs are met, promptly and lovingly, then his brain connects pathways that allow feelings and eventually empathic behaviors. Neglect at this critical time can mean hormones like cortisol and adrenalin interfere with this healthy brain development.

whereisjustice

(2,941 posts)
74. organized religion has never been about morals, it is about convincing the masses to
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:58 PM
Aug 2014

quietly accept that their suffering and exploitation in this life is necessary to obtain the reward awaiting them in the next.

flvegan

(64,407 posts)
77. You should look up the word "empathy"
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:08 AM
Aug 2014

You might be uncomfortable to find out it's not just about people.

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
78. True - morality is a universal human characteristic
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:18 AM
Aug 2014

from which religion derives, not the other way around. Religion has its uses, but too many forms can stifle natural morality, rather than inform it.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
80. And real religion is based on empathy, too
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:55 AM
Aug 2014

Every religion has something like what Rabbi Hillel said:

"What you find hateful, do not do unto your neighbor. That is the whole of the Torah; all the rest is commentary."

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
93. Bollocks. All religions talk a good talk but where is that stellar empathy when
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 10:38 AM
Aug 2014

Yahweh himself promises to smote all the enemies of Jews, when he remains mute on stoning, promotes war, nationalism, etc etc.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
110. Hence the "real" in my title
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:48 PM
Aug 2014

As I learned as a lad in Hebrew school, so much is in the interpretation of scripture. One can interpret scripture to promote bad ends, but this isn't "real" religion, in my book anyway.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
118. But real Judaism has a god that promotes warfare, who frames the world
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 05:33 PM
Aug 2014

as comprising of people whom he likes (Jews) and whom he will support. What is there to interprete? In the Old Testament Yahweh doesn't show any empathy at all for those who aren't his chosen people.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
124. What is there to interpret?
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:02 AM
Aug 2014

Everything!

The Talmud is probably the second most important book in Judaism, after the Torah. It's basically a giant discussion/argument among important rabbis over how the law should be interpreted. Everything is up for grabs. From Wikipedia:

The whole Talmud consists of 63 tractates, and in standard print is over 6,200 pages long. It is written in Tannaitic Hebrew and Aramaic. The Talmud contains the teachings and opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including Halakha (law), Jewish ethics, philosophy, customs, history, lore and many other topics. The Talmud is the basis for all codes of Jewish law and is much quoted in rabbinic literature.

These are not subtle differences of opinion - they are often huge differences. While I'm not personally religious, I think it's really cool that Judaism has a giant book of arguments as a key tract: it sends the message that nobody has a monopoly on truth and interpretation, and even as a tyke in Hebrew school I was encouraged to push back at our teachers and rabbis if we didn't buy what they were saying.

snagglepuss

(12,704 posts)
130. A big argument between men. Where's the voice of women? That said I do esteem the value
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 11:18 AM
Aug 2014

placed on argument within Judaism but the fact remains that Yahweh is a militaristic Deity that promoted tribalism and female subservience. Yahweh shows no empathy for those outside the tribe of Israel, no empathy towards women.


Gnostic's many of whom were disaffected Jews got it right when they asserted the Yahweh was a demiurge, a craftsman who after creating the Earth became arrogant and saw himself as the ultimate Godhead. The fact that he wasn't the ultimate godhead was the reason according to Gnostic's that Yahweh speaks of himself as an an angry and jealous god.

(A interesting tidbit about gnosticism is that they regarded the serpent in the Garden of Eden as a manifestation of Christ who wanted Adam and Eve to acquire knowledge and not remain in a state of ignorance under the thumb of a capricious demiurge.)


An interesting note about the misogny way back when is found in the Gospel of Mary which is one of the Gnostics gospels found at Nag Hamadi; Mary says to Jesus that she finds it hard to express herself to Jesus when Peter is close at hand because of Peter's hatred of women. I don't know about you but I was shocked to read that a female back in the 1st or 2nd century when that gospel was written would be aware of misogny and comment on it. Clearly misogny was acknowledged but why then no comment from all those learned rabbis.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
132. I think most of it started as a means of control.
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:13 PM
Aug 2014

The Big 3 desert-originated monotheisms largely stomped down many female-centric goddess religions and also turned their back on nature.

If they had stuck to the "do unto others" and that was the basic theme, it would have been fine. But they are all loaded down with harmful crap that has brought untold misery to the planet for centuries.

azureblue

(2,146 posts)
81. correct, and--
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:38 AM
Aug 2014

religion is the politics of spirituality. What a religion tries to convince people of is that they don't know how to be "good" unless they believe in their god and belong to their religion. IOW are "lost" so you can't be "good" without religious guidance. Hogwash. Almost all religions fear the self guided, self enlightened person, individual seeker, because they challenge this system. A lot of religions also do not want critical thinkers, also, for they tend to see the dogma as BS thrown at them to try to keep them in the flock..

barbtries

(28,787 posts)
86. nope. you're right.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 03:06 AM
Aug 2014

the biggest problem i have with religion is how much evil shit gets done in its name.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
100. We definitely should abolish faith-based funding and there s/b no restrictions
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:32 AM
Aug 2014

on abortion or gay marriage. Cuz religion always stays in its own back yard.

malthaussen

(17,187 posts)
94. So, what if empathy isn't that common, really?
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 10:58 AM
Aug 2014

Religion can be seen, as with other forms of law, as an attempt to enforce certain actions on people who would otherwise be out of control. The fact that, as with other forms of law, it can be corrupted and used to justify nearly any sort of activity, is not the fault of religion itself but of human nature.

-- Mal

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
98. Your argument proves my point
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:27 AM
Aug 2014

If religion is corrupted by people, then those people lack empathy, or morals. IOW, it isn't religion that makes them moral, it's their level of empathy for their fellow human beings.

Religion may be a way of forcing empathy (or morals) onto people.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
95. So true,
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:10 AM
Aug 2014

and so many have been saying it loudly in recent times - Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Hitchens. And for whatever good religion has ever done in the word, it has done more evil.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg (emphasis added)

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
96. No. Need both. We know some lack empathy.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:21 AM
Aug 2014

For those lacking empathy, the writ is needed to ascribe them.

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
111. Neither you nor the op describe what is needed.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:11 PM
Aug 2014

Religion has long been where our morals are honed.

We have long needed a forum, not just a forum, but a forum with teeth.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
112. Religion has nothing to do with morality.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:16 PM
Aug 2014

I do not need religion -- never have, never will. I don't murder, rape, pillage, try to stomp down others' rights, or dupe rubes into giving me money, unlike many religious people.

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
121. How about: yes, it does.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 09:24 PM
Aug 2014

The idea is that you have already benefited, You played the game, understand the rules and now you don't need to read the instruction manual- by your way of thinking.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
123. Uhhh yeeeeah. No.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 10:52 PM
Aug 2014

Have you ever read the Bible? What a fucked-up, twisted piece of fiction. Yahweh is a mass-murdering asshole.

I reject your premise entirely.

Maineman

(854 posts)
97. Absolutely true!
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:26 AM
Aug 2014

The two biggest problems on planet earth are greed and religion. Religion has been the underlying factor in numerous acts of hate, brutality, and war -- "Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching off to War..." Muslims kill Muslims, Catholics versus Protestants (Northern Ireland), the list goes on and on.

And just listen to the crazy, off-the-wall comments of today's politicians. If a politician says something crazy, you can bet it is based on some religious belief, or greed. One of my favorites is "God gave us coal" as a way of defending the use of planet damaging fuel and ridiculing science. Too bad God did not give him a brain.

And, morality? Call it what it is: Religious dogma.

Yavin4

(35,437 posts)
99. To be fair, there are positive examples of religions as well.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:30 AM
Aug 2014

See the slavery abolitionists in the US. My point is that we think that it's religion itself that makes people moral, when in relaity, it's the level of empathy in the human being.

Religion alone does not make people moral. It's the level of empathy in the human that makes them moral.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
101. If you want to prove it, just ask a relgious person why they don't stone their neighbor for
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:36 AM
Aug 2014

working on Saturday, or for wearing certain combinations of cloth.

They'll tell you, in some way, that they themselves can discern which parts of that flawless book are reasonable and which are not. That pretty much settles the question of whether or not morality comes from religion, I'd say.

 

DesertFaux

(15 posts)
102. Morals are an expression of our investing in people,
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 11:36 AM
Aug 2014

if you are missing this function of investment, you instead rely on the tactic of manipulation. Those missing the investment gene look normal, walk normal, have two eyes, but they just don't understand the language of human investment, and will even contradict it. Those who believe in religion and have 'faith' are very easy to manipulate by these people.

LW1977

(1,234 posts)
104. Yes you are wrong..
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:01 PM
Aug 2014

As a liberal Christian, this thread is insulting!

Richard Dawkins/Pat Robertson same sh!t/different viewpoints.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
113. Pat Robertson is religious.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:19 PM
Aug 2014

So obviously religion didn't "work" to impose morality on him, because he is a giant asshole who dupes people out of their needed cash. Religion is just mythology and dogma and has nothing to do with morality.

SunSeeker

(51,550 posts)
105. Empathy is what Christianity's "Golden Rule" tries (and fails) to inculcate.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:18 PM
Aug 2014

It appears most religions try to teach people empathy by telling them to put themselves in the other person's shoes and treat that person like they would like to be treated. Sadly, it seems most religious people fail to follow that rule. It seems you either have the capacity for empathy or you don't. Religion does not seem to make you have empathy. Indeed, if anything, religion is often the excuse people use to mistreat their fellow humans, particularly those who happen to not believe in the same imaginary friend up in the sky.

The CCC

(463 posts)
108. Morals are based on empathy not religion
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:33 PM
Aug 2014

Ideally our religion informs our morals and our morals informs our religion. As a wise man once told me: "What you are doing shouts so loudly that I can't hear a word you're saying".

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
114. I'd agree. Some of the most Christian people I have met aren't Christians.
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 02:08 PM
Aug 2014

And many of the self-proclaimed Christians I have met are most distinguished by lacking an emphatic bone in their bodies.

geretogo

(1,281 posts)
115. Exactly right . Empathy was expressed in the saying by Jesus " do unto others as you would have them
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 02:11 PM
Aug 2014

do unto you " . If that isn't empathy I don't know what is . It is " Organized Religion " and the addiction
to it that is so destructive in the world .

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
126. No, you're not wrong
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 03:08 AM
Aug 2014

That said, religion can provide some "fine-tuning" (for lack of a better term) of that empathy. Which is not to say that atheists lack morality, before someone thinks I'm saying that. I think religion just gives you license for whatevers inside you. If you have a spiteful, petty, judgemental prick a Bible, you get Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson. Give a Bible to a thoroughly good man with a deep interest in social justice and you get Martin Luther King. I was raised by my grandmother, who was devoutly (albeit quietly) Christian and she spent her entire life caring for disabled and disturbed children. I know that she drew a lot of strength and inspiration from her faith but I think it just gave support to who she was inside.

Unlike most of DU, I am a man of faith (who frequently gets tired of the OTT hatred of religion here) and I don't think religion is automatically evil but there's no doubt that it can be and is turned to evil ends.

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