Russian President asks Western leaders to make Kiev negotiate peace.

[another_liberal]

The President of Russia has suggested leaders of Western nations apply some of their diplomatic influence with Poroshenko to convince the Ukrainian leader to negotiate an end to the bloody conflict now devastating much of eastern Ukraine. Now we will see whether NATO, the EU and the United States are for peace and diplomacy, or if they prefer ever more destruction, death and war.

Putin: Kiev’s shelling in E. Ukraine reminiscent of Nazi actions during WWII


Russian President Vladimir Putin has compared the shelling of east Ukrainian towns and cities by Kiev’s troops to actions carried out by the Nazis during World War II.

“Sad as it might seem, this reminds me of the events of World War II, when the German Nazi occupants surrounded our cities, like Leningrad, and directly shelled those cities and their inhabitants,” Putin said on Friday, speaking at the “Seliger-2014” youth forum.

He recalled the signs in St. Petersburg, preserved since World War II, which warned citizens which side of the road was more vulnerable to shelling. Now “both towns and cities are surrounded by the Ukrainian army, which is directly shelling residential areas with the purpose of destroying infrastructure, and suppressing the will of those in the resistance,” Putin said.

The president also commented on Kiev’s military units that are currently surrounded and blocked by anti-government militia. According to the latest data, Kiev has refused to try and negotiate safe passage for them to retreat.

(snip)


Update

. . .

The Ukrainian leadership has demonstrated its inability to bring the situation under control, the Russian president said, urging talks between Kiev and the country’s east.

“Our partners’ position is clear to me,” he said. “Yes, there should be talks, but in the mean time we need to let Ukrainian troops to do a bit of shooting – maybe they will get the situation under control.”

Putin added that it was time to acknowledge that attempts to resolve the crisis by force have failed and it is “necessary to make Ukrainian authorities to begin negotiation and not over technical issues… but over the core issues.”

The main topic on the agenda should be the rights of the people living in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, the Russian president said.

(snip)

Read more at: http://rt.com/news/183648-putin-russia-ukraine-nazi/

[DetlefK]

1. Negotiate with whom and over what?

The rebels already said that accepting the secession is a PRECONDITION for talks.

[reorg]

2. BS n/t

[another_liberal]

3. I haven't seen that they are even asking for secession (complete independence) . . .

All I have seen them ask for is autonomy within a federalized system of government.

Where did you see that they have made independence a "precondition" for talks?

[DetlefK]

4. They are asking for a complete withdrawal of the ukrainian army.

http://russialist.org/interfax-separatist-leader-in-ukraine-sets-out-terms-for-peace-talks/

And what happens once the ukrainian army has withdrawn from the territory the rebels want and once a peace-accord is in place?

"Great, now that everything is sorted out, we welcome the ukrainian army back into the People's Republic of Donetsk because the Republic is totally part of a country run by Nazi-thugs and foreign agents."

[VanGoghRocks]

5. Do you even know what 'federalism' means? Are you at all familiar with Lavrov's

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 08:04 AM - Edit history (1)

June proposal or are you so blinded by Zbig Brezinski's Ruossophobic line that you are unaware?

ETA: Lavrov made the proposal in late March, not June.

[DetlefK]

6. I do know what a federal republic is. And I have not heard of the June proposal.

I do not need to read somebody's articles to get a stance on Russia. All I need to know is the russian invasion of Crimea, the continuous anti-ukrainian propaganda in the russian media and the dozen hints that the rebels receive material and intelligence support from Russia.

Please inform me about Lavrov's proposal.

[VanGoghRocks]

7. Lavrov made the proposal in late March (not June as I mistakenly wrote earlier):

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-30/kerry-to-meet-lavrov-in-paris-to-discuss-ukraine-crisis.html

[DetlefK]

10. Restructuring Ukraine to a federal nation can mean different things.

It depends on the balance of power between the central government and the state-governments.

My proposal:
Ukraine could split the East into small states, disarm the rebels, and rotate its new soldiers to different regions of Ukraine, to ensure that they don't develop loyalty to a particular region or population, but to Ukraine as a whole. Additionally, states would only have the right to make laws concerning matters within their own territory, not on national or international matters.

[VanGoghRocks]

11. And what about the Russian language?

[DetlefK]

13. Local administration, local media and schools would be a state-issue.

[VanGoghRocks]

16. The putschistas' outlawed Russian as an official language in one of their

very first post-putsch measures. Bet you didn't know that.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. Actually they didn't.

Russian was never "outlawed". There was a bill that would have made Ukrainian the exclusive language of government business. The speaking of Russian itself by Ukrainian citizens would not be outlawed. Ultimately, the bill was never signed into law and that is pretty much that.

But spin the truth as you wish, at your own risk.

[The Magistrate]

31. It Is Amazing, Sir, How They Cling To These 'Zombie Factoids'....

I will grant than in that part of the world language laws are something a minority should keep a weather eye out for, and it was a provocative thing to propose, but it amounted to nothing more than a proposal here that only English be used in government documents and proceedings, and as you observe, not even that actually became law.

But of course, these people are so much better informed than the rest of us....

[Tommy_Carcetti]

9. I see Brezinski is the new Valerie Nuland amongst the pro-separtist crowd.

Although they do spend an inordinate amount of hate on State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki, for reasons that are beyond me.

[Blue_Tires]

8. I'm guessing you must work at RT for all that bullshit you keep posting...

[SidDithers]

12. Your post was alerted. Results 2-5 to Leave.

I'm guessing you must work at RT for all that bullshit you keep posting...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5459903

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Accusing someone of working for the foreign press because you disagree with them? Come on, that meets anyone's definition of 'over the top'.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Aug 29, 2014, 09:34 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster in question has been spamming DU with Putin propaganda from RT for months. It's the propaganda that should be hidden, not the one's calling out the spam.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Keeps posting RT link/news but doesn't like being called an employee of a propaganda source?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Doesn't meet my def. of over the top, sorry. (And, 'the foreign press' is a slur?)
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If you're going to post articles from RT and presumably agree with them, you shouldn't take offense when someone suggests you share the same views.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

Sid

[Blue_Tires]

15. I think that's the first "victory" I've had in a couple of years..

things are looking up for me already...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Jurors 1, 2 and 7 look particularly quick on the uptake. nt

[Blue_Tires]

18. Forget what I said in #8, and let me take another angle...

Just a question, actually...Because I swear to god I'm really trying to understand:

Exactly how did Putin become so beloved by a certain segment of the left when he was universally reviled up until a few months ago?? Did the Snowden/Greenwald thing have that much to do with improving his public approval rating? Did folks get a little too overly romantic while watching the pageantry of Olympic ceremonies? Were people really that butthurt over Ukraine ditching a despotic, kleptocratic leader who lost the faith of his people and refused to resign? Are people that opposed to Ukraine becoming a part of the EU and NATO? Are people silently relieved to finally see a non-U.S. superpower flex it's imperialist muscle? Or has Putin been shoehorned into that spiritual void once inhabited by Castro and Chavez which represents unflinching leftist opposition to oppressive U.S. foreign policy??

[another_liberal]

21. Who loves Putin?

One does not have to love President Putin to hate the lies and hypocrisy being spread about Russia. A functioning sense of fairness is all that is required to be appalled by the wholesale Russia-bashing the West has been so disgracefully indulging in.

The free World owes a great debt to Russia, whether our leaders choose to acknowledge that fact or not. If it had not been for the nearly unbelievable sacrifices made by Russian people, we would all most likely be speaking German from childhood and worshiping Herr Hitler as our new god.

[The Magistrate]

23. You Do, Sir, Clearly, On Your Own Words...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5169424

"Putin is rough, tough, and nobody's sweet-heart...."

You gave your game away with that: your real motive here is hero-worship of a dictator who you see as the strong man who can stand up to the things you feel powerless against, and who can serve as a vehicle for you to express your distaste for the society you were born and raised in, through identification with him and his deeds.

And of course, this gem from earlier today:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.


You are on record as believing that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....

[another_liberal]

24. What about any of that suggests love, or any other kind of emotion?

Your comments regarding my personal feelings are merely accusation, unfounded inference and formless supposition. They have no substance in fact.

[The Magistrate]

25. When You Right Harlequin Cover Blurbs, Sir, People Notice

Just like they notice when you state that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

[another_liberal]

27. Believe what you want to Magi . . .

Just don't try to twist my words to suit your agenda.

[The Magistrate]

30. No One Is Twisting Your Words, Sir, Though Most Would Agree They Are A Bit Twisted....

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

That is a flat statement laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....

[another_liberal]

32. You can have that quote tattooed on you forehead . . .

Though it might attract a few stares.

However, do let me offer you a much better quote to repeat ad infinitum: Anyone who supports further conflict with Russia over Ukraine is dangerously misinformed about the likely consequences for themselves and those they care about. Anyone, be they gay, straight or totally asexual, who tells you it is good or necessary to enter an escalating conflict with Russia over Ukraine, is either profoundly ignorant concerning that subject or just completely lacking in imagination.

[The Magistrate]

33. Your Quote, Sir, Your Forehead, And Yes, It Will Attract A Few Stares Your Way....

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

You are on record as believing that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....

[another_liberal]

35. So, Magi continued to repeat the quote forever . . .

And that's the story of how I gained virtual immortality!

(yawn)

[The Magistrate]

36. Many Confuse Noteriety With Fame, Sir: You Are Far From The First To Do So....

You are on record as believing that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

[another_liberal]

40. Make up whatever you want to believe . . .

It will still be your interpretation of my meaning, yours not mine.

[The Magistrate]

41. I Am Quoting You, Sir: That Is Not Making Things Up

This is what you wrote:

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

That is a flat statement laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....

[another_liberal]

42. If what I posted in that reply embarrasses anyone . . .

And that embarrassment makes them decide to stop rooting for hostilities between the US/NATO and Russia, I will consider your abuse of no consequence in exchange.

If, on the other hand, no one really feels the way I suggested in my initial reply, so much the better, and I am more than happy to admit the error in my speculations.

[The Magistrate]

43. So You Stand By It, Sir, And Even Consider It A Useful Line Of Argument

Claiming that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride' is something you actually believe is a worthwhile contribution to discussion of current events.

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

[another_liberal]

44. Your worship of my quoted words is an unhealthy obsession, Magi . . .

And not just a little creepy.

Stop it.

[The Magistrate]

46. Again, Sir, You Mistake Notoriety For Fame

Or in this instance, more precisely, you mistake the look one gives to someone who has actually said he thinks gay people want war with Russia because Russian's laws persecuting gay people offend their pride with being regarded with admiring awe....

Because that is exactly what you said:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.


A flat statement laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....

[another_liberal]

47. On your forehead, a tattoo . . .

Goodnight, sweet Magi.

[The Magistrate]

48. Your Quote, Sir, Your Forehead, And Yes, It Will Attract A Few Stares Your Way....

It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .

Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.

I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185

You are on record as believing that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'...

[another_liberal]

49. It goes without saying . . .

Sweet dreams.

[Blue_Tires]

29. Based on your recent posting history, I'm pretty sure it's

love or admiration at the least -- Because you've gone a hundred miles past the point of simply trying to "set the record straight" on Putin's Russia, and at some point the self-delusion has got to end...

And hey; that's just fine if you think Putin is a great guy and the Russian socio-economic model and system of government is one for the world to follow, because that's what makes DU great -- Posters, Opinions, and stuff...

All I want to know is *why* you feel that way? Are you an ethnic Russian? An expat living there now? Got a grudge against Washington? Have you always been a Putin supporter, or was it something that happened gradually?

I'm dead serious -- I truly want to understand the left's fascination with him, and you are my gateway...Who knows? Maybe you'll even convert me if you put up a good enough argument...

[another_liberal]

34. There are things to admire about President Putin . . .

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)

There are also things about him I find regrettable. He is not one-dimensional, nor is he always right in what he does.

[PragmaticLiberal]

38. Would mind stating what you admire about him?

Really curious.

[another_liberal]

39. Are you really curious? That's good!

However, if you have to ask that question, you most likely lack the context to understand a meaningful answer.

Let me suggest you invest a few bucks on A Peoples History Of The American Empire by Howard Zinn. Pay particular attention to the chapters which deal with the latter decades of the last Century, then get back to me and we'll talk.

[friendly_iconoclast]

51. Nice punt, with use of the old Marxian chestnut "false consciousness"

However, if you have to ask that question, you most likely lack the context to understand a meaningful answer.

"Let me suggest you..." And let *me* suggest you answer the question asked,
lest even more DUers come to believe your posts in favor of Putin are not
so much principled admiration as ordinary shilling.

You've fallen into the same trap that the old Western Cold Warriors fell into, and
have become a mirror-image Jeanne Kirkpatrick: Eliding or minimizing the
faults of regimes of which one approves, while kicking those one does not like

[another_liberal]

52. Give Howard Zinn a few hours read . . .

It really is never too late to learn something. You owe it to yourself to at least scan the topography of what we're talking about, before you toss a chance to understand aside.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. Zinn's book is a marvelous work, but it's no excuse for embracing Manichaeism

Wanting to strengthen ones' nation is a fine thing, but it does not excuse any and
all means to that end. Putin is rapidly becoming a better-armed European version
of Robert Mugabe

[another_liberal]

67. Other than the fact they are nothing alike . . .

In background, education, professional experience, style of governing and the manner in which they retain power (Putin was elected in a free and fair vote) they are quite different. Mugabe and President Putin are, on the other hand, both warm-blooded mammals, and in those respects they are the same.

[friendly_iconoclast]

88. I have come to realize that you are correct in this case- Putin is not Mugabe

He's Ronald Reagan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025470408

[EX500rider]

64. He's so dreamy!!

[another_liberal]

66. It appears someone is fixated on President Putin . . .

And it is not me either.

[EX500rider]

82. If you say so sparky.

[another_liberal]

20. You really think that do you?

If so, what a happy life full of imagination and wonder you must live!


FYI: I write what I write here at my own expense. I am completely free-lance and under contractual obligation to no one.

[snooper2]

14. whatever pootie asshole

[another_liberal]

22. I'm always thoroughly impressed by scatological name-calling . . .

It suggests so much classiness and wit on the part of the speaker.

(sigh)

[snooper2]

26. Thanks!

I've been working on my terrorist Pro Rus-Si-A chant as well

RUS-SI-A!
RUS-SI-A!
RUS-SI-A!
RUS-SI-A!

[EX500rider]

65. lol..

[NCTraveler]

28. Putin is beyond dishonest and a dispicable person with no morals or ethics.

This is from his propaganda machine. Worth reading as it is always interesting reading a ruthless mans propaganda. Other than that, not so much.

Putting any weight behind something from rt would be like calling Robert Gibbs and James Carney journalists.

[another_liberal]

37. Really?

Just how well do you personally know the Russian President? Please give us all the choice insights you've gained.

[NCTraveler]

90. Your reply doesn't make sense.

If you disagree, state your reasons why?

[another_liberal]

91. You were offering insights which suggested you knew him . . .

I'm just following up on your lead.

[NCTraveler]

92. You do not need to know someone personally to make the claims I did.

Kind of foolish for you to think that for a second. I thought you replied to the wrong person as it made such little sense.

[another_liberal]

93. Only if one wants to be taken seriously . . .

(sigh)

[NCTraveler]

94. Needs to be added as the Putin loving has gone way too far.

The agenda is becoming clear. Well, I will make it as clear for you as it is to everybody else.

"Putin is beyond dishonest and a despicable person with no morals or ethics."

You think I need to know him personally in order to make that comment. Now, your position clearly makes no logical sense. In any way at all. But you must fight when negative remarks are made about that monster of a man.

Lets say I said the same exact thing about Bush. You would have never questioned it. You would never have made such an ignorant comment like "do you know him". You would have jumped right in with me. Well, according to you neither one of us can talk about Bush like that.

I hope you can see your flaw. I hope you can see that twisting in the manner in which you are in order to be on the side that is against Obama is letting your slip show. Your argument here is so absurd I am hoping that this shines a light on it for you.

A number of posters here do it better than you. They make it less obvious. Leave this stuff to the more critical thinkers out there. It doesn't suit you well.

[another_liberal]

95. "A number of posters here do it better than you."

Phrasing, please!

[NCTraveler]

96. That's exactly what was expected.

With a couple second search I was able to find where you use adjectives to describe people you have never known. How cool is that. A couple of seconds to show that you can't even back up your own argument. You literally jumped in here to stand up for your man using a blatantly shitty argument. An argument that you don't follow the rules of in life. Too cute. I suggest you find some consistency or you will just look bad in your fight for the extreme right wing Putin. Do I need to know him personally to call him extreme and right wing or is his extreme right wing record enough.

[another_liberal]

97. I'm in far too good a mood today to fight with you about it . . .

Please yourself today. Fight with me tomorrow.

[Codeine]

45. Or Putin could just gtfo, right? nt

[another_liberal]

50. Where do you feel he should leave . . .

He was somewhere near St. Petersburg today. Do you want him out of there?

[Chan790]

54. Sure...just as soon as Russia accepts some preconditions.

1.) Total Russian withdrawal of support from rebels.
2.) Acceptance of Kiev's right to join NATO if they so choose.
3.) Withdrawal of all Russian troops from Ukrainian soil, including walking away from bases in Sevastopol and Crimea.

[another_liberal]

57. You expect the Separatists to simply surrender . . .

After everything they have suffered at Kiev's hands? You really expect them to just lay down their arms and trust to the tender mercies of those who have bombarded their homes for months, those who have murdered their families and friends?

Surely you jest?

[Chan790]

62. No, I expect one list of ridiculous preconditions deserves another.

The separatists want recognition of their secession as a precondition.

Note that I didn't say said they couldn't have it...the conditions I laid out required nothing of the separatists and everything of Russia. Russian total withdrawal from Ukraine and Crimea, Russia's surrender of the naval base as Sevastopol, recognizing Kiev's right to join NATO without repercussions from Moscow, and withdrawal of all of their military, logistical and economic support of the separatists. Perhaps, I need also list return of annexed territory and barring them from absorbing the seceded territory....but I think that's clearly covered already.

Simply, the condition of a cease-fire negotiation is that Moscow hang the separatists out to be overrun if the cease-fire negotiations falter. It motivates them not to play games. They lost the right to a ceasefire better than the Treaty of Versailles when Putin started making nuclear threats...be happy there's no demand for reparations.

I rarely jest about foreign policy.

[Tarheel_Dem]

55. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what brand of "liberalism" you subscribe to, so I can....

avoid it at all costs.

[another_liberal]

56. I belong to the Jingoism-opposing "brand" . . .

We are starting to gain strength, despite a smothering media blitz determined to turn all Americans into obedient little, robot soldiers, ready and eager to fight to the death for the causes of big energy, Wall Street, and the Military/Industrial Complex.

There are no compulsory meetings or dues for our members. One is only required to oppose any and all militarily insane, imperial adventures to seize control of resource-rich foreign lands.

No membership cards either. We'll know who you are.

[Tarheel_Dem]

84. I get it. Nationalism, by anyone other than Russia, is verbotten. Got it! It's so amusing to hear

you speak of "imperial adventures to seize control of resource-rich foreign lands". Your irony meter must be in the shop.

[another_liberal]

85. I did not say that . . .

Don't try to put words in my mouth.

As a matter of fact, extreme Nationalism on anyone's part is dangerous to us all, in my opinion.

[Tarheel_Dem]

87. "Putin's approval rating soars to 87 per cent in Russia ..."

I'd say that "nationalist fever" has spiked in Mother Russia, so I'm outta this crap thread. Давайте выпьем за здоровье!

[William769]

58. OMFG!

Fuck head putin caused the crisis, is still instigating all the horrors going on their it has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that Russian military is involved in the fighting. what a truly fucking delusional psychopath!

And whats worse is it gets posted here wanting peoiple to believe this shit. I swar this is so fucking weird that. Well, we will just leave it at that.

[another_liberal]

60. Your opinion only . . .

Many others do not share your views.

[William769]

63. Thats a very small number.

Luckily puntinistas are a minority.

[randome]

59. S'up.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[another_liberal]

61. Around here, it's a rare and beautiful high Summer morning . . .

Enjoy!

[pampango]

68. And Germany demands that France and the UK make Poland negotiate peace.

"Poland needs to withdraw its army from Germany and negotiate peace," said the German chancellor.

[another_liberal]

69. Apples and oranges . . .

Maybe more like "apples and softballs." At any rate, those two situations are totally different.

But you already know that, don't you?

[pampango]

70. By all means, explain how Germany is 'apples' and Russia is 'oranges'.

In what way is Russia's behavior towards Ukraine not similar to Germany's towards Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland? Reuniting ethnic 'brother' with the 'home country'. A strong country taking territory from a weaker one. "Correcting" 'historical mistakes' with regards to national borders.

I have not seen anyone explain how Putin is not acting like a fascist with respect to Ukraine. Sometimes "apples" are "apples" even if they are separated by 75 years.

[another_liberal]

71. Germany invaded Poland in an act of unprovoked military aggression . . .

Russia has invaded no one.

And before indulging in claims about Russian soldiers and Russian tanks engaged in the fighting, lets remember millions of ethnic Russians live in eastern Ukraine, and the Ukrainian army is equipped with Russian-made weapons and vehicles. Alright?

[pampango]

72. Sounds like we agree that IF Russian soldiers and tanks were invading Ukraine THAT would be an act

of unprovoked military aggression. Then the discussion becomes one of what possible evidence, if there is any, that could be that would convince you or me that the other is right.

I could imagine that a UN supervised peace keeping force on the border between Russia and Ukraine would verify that fighting in Ukraine was 'merely' a civil war between Ukrainians. Perhaps the OSCE (to which Russia, Ukraine, the US and European countries all belong) could be useful in this regard. If this happened, I would be convinced that you are right.

Do you consider that there is any possible evidence that could convince you that actual Russian soldiers and tanks are invading Ukraine?

And, of course, the chancellor of Germany made the invasion of Poland look like retaliation for Polish sabateurs destroying a radio station in Germany.

On the night of 31 August 1939, a small group of German operatives, dressed in Polish uniforms and led by Naujocks, seized the Gleiwitz station and broadcast a short anti-German message in Polish (sources vary on the content of the message). The Germans' goal was to make the attack and the broadcast look like the work of anti-German Polish saboteurs.

The Gleiwitz incident was a part of a larger operation, carried out by Abwehr and SS forces. At the same time as the Gleiwitz attack, there were other incidents orchestrated by Germany along the Polish-German border, such as a house torching in the Polish Corridor and spurious propaganda output. The entire project, dubbed Operation Himmler and comprising a number of incidents, was intended to give the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany.

For months before the 1939 invasion, German newspapers and politicians, including Adolf Hitler, accused Polish authorities of organizing or tolerating violent ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans living in Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

The pretext of protecting 'ethnic brothers' in a 'hostile' country to justify military action is not new. Neither is going to great lengths to try to justify military action as retaliation rather than unprovoked aggression.

One difference with the present is that I doubt the chancellor of Germany accused the Polish government of being 'fascist'. (Although that is what the Soviet government accused Poland of when it invaded from the east.) They probably used 'communist' or 'socialist' or some other term meant to create a useful stereotype.

[another_liberal]

73. No one is denying Russians are volunteering to fight in eastern Ukraine . . .

They are doing so as private citizens, not as part of a Russian military operation. The same can not be said for the professional American and eastern European mercenaries who have be fighting there, hired by Poroshenko's wealthy Ukrainian oligarch buddies.

[pampango]

74. You did not answer the question about what evidence, if any, would convince you that Russia itself

had invaded Ukraine.

I understand that "volunteers" - soldiers on leave (with their tanks?) according to one separatist leader - from Russia are fighting in Eastern Ukraine. (Are we to assume that these soldiers on leave are not being paid, hence are 'volunteers'.

The question is whether the use of 'volunteers' and uniforms and vehicles with insignia removed is just a manifestation of a grassroots ethnic-Russian, Ukrainian rebellion or a subterfuge that gives plausible deniability to the Russian government.

I have offered you examples of evidence that would convince me that the former (as you contend) is true. The question is whether there is any potential evidence that would convince you that the latter (as I suspect) is true.

[another_liberal]

75. If Russia had actually invaded Ukraine we would know . . .

Because they would be in Kiev within seventy-two hours, tops.

[pampango]

76. So if Russia does not capture Kiev, for whatever reason, then there is no acceptable evidence of

a direct Russian invasion? What if Putin does not want Kiev or western Ukraine? Then there is no possible evidence that would convince you of direct Russian intervention absent the fall of Kiev? (I think the US did not capture Baghdad in Gulf War I. How does that work?)

I suppose a 'climate-change-denying' republican could say, "Unless the sea level rises and swallows my house, there is no global climate change. Prior to that happening there is not evidence I will accept that there is global climate change." I think the Poles knew that Germany and the USSR had invaded long before Warsaw fell.

[another_liberal]

77. What I'm saying is that if Russia did actually invade . . .

They would push the Ukrainian army aside and end the war in a few days.

I doubt my theory will ever be put to the test, however, Poroshenko's government seems about ready to collapse due to Ukraine's own internal weaknesses, so why should Russia even bother?

[pampango]

78. What you said was, if Kiev is not captured, then the Russia has not invaded. I asked, what if

all Putin wants is the eastern part of Ukraine. Is there is no acceptable evidence of a direct invasion if the tactical goal is not the capture of Kiev? Who wants to control a bunch of pro-Europe Ukrainians in western Ukraine anyway. They would just be a big headache. Let them have their little pro-European Ukraine and the rest can join Mother Russia.

What if his tactical goal is controlling enough land in southeastern Ukraine to geographically connect Russia to Crimea by land along the southeast coast. Would that just take 'a few days' as well? If so, you may be right about the power of the Russian army since this looks like it will be over in a few days.

The Poroshenko government may well collapse or it may not. Either way there are parliamentary elections scheduled for October and his presidential term is far from complete. I seriously doubt that he will conduct a "self-coup" like Yanukovich did and abdicate his office. Democracies have a way of recovering from 'collapsed' parliamentary governments. It happens to them all the time.

[another_liberal]

80. If organized formations of the Russian army intentionally and without provocation . . .

Cross a foreign border, that is an invasion. I really assumed we both understood that.

And we all know only the United States has the right to preemptively invade other countries without prior provocation. Well, I guess Israel can too.

[pampango]

83. Now we are getting somewhere. I accept your definiton of an invasion. Now what evidence

that "organized formations" had crossed a foreign border would you accept as convincing evidence? None of us are prone to just accept the word of one side or another since both have cause to "spin" events to their advantage.

Do those "organized formations" have to show up in the other country's capital (the global-warming equivalent of the rising seas swallowing your house) or is there some evidence short of that an invasion was occurring? And without the UN or OSCE or some other group on the border, how can one know if an 'organized formation' is crossing the border or not? Would an international presence on the border be useful in removing any doubt that Russia was not sending an 'organized force' into Ukraine? It sounds like something that both side could support.

I'm trying to come up with some types of evidence and ways to obtain them that would make this something other than a "he said, she said", "I support my team regardless of any stinking evidence" type of issue. OTOH, if one side - or both sides - say that evidence does not matter, "I already know which side I am on and it's not going to change", then it becomes a "climate change" discussion where facts do not matter at least to one side.

Or in the interest of which side it is to prevent evidence from being obtained? Does Kiev benefit more or the pro-Russian side?

And we all know only the United States has the right to preemptively invade other countries without prior provocation. Well, I guess Israel can too.

Actually no country has that right as I'm sure you will agree. It has been done many times in history by many countries but that does not make it 'right' or give modern countries that 'right'.

[etherealtruth]

79. Links to the Russian times are dubious at best

RT is to the Kremlin what FOX 'news" is to the western right wing .... largely propaganda with very specific agendas

[another_liberal]

81. That may be your opinion . . .

Many others, however, do disagree.

[elias49]

86. One thing's for sure, 'another-lib'

there's no quit in you!

[another_liberal]

89. I'm driven . . .

By a desire to end imperialism and regulate greed. I detest the wealthy and powerful few who think they have become gods among men, who treat human life as a commodity and our planet as if it were a victim to be raped!

I could go on . . . but tell me more about yourself.