What did DU used to be about, once upon a time?

[WilliamPitt]

Back in the summer of 2002, me and several DUers from the Boston area - Matcom was the copilot - put together a flyer about the Bush administration using 9/11 against us, and about the onrushing war in Iraq. We reprinted a thousand copies or so, stood out on the street, and handed them out all day long to whoever would take them, and talked/debated/argued with anyone who wanted to talk.

It's hard to remember 12 years later, but we were cat-nervous, and the simple act of handing out flyers and speaking political heresies out loud felt brave, because WE ALL HAD TO GET IN LINE AND YOU ARE BEING WATCHED AND PATRIOTISM AND SHIT. It was an astonishingly paranoid and fearful time if you weren't "on board" with the program, and actually had the gumption to say so in public. The swelling from 9/11 had not gone down very much, and people were still very sensitive and definitely locked into OBEY...and I don't know if we changed any minds on the spot with those flyers that day, but we made more than a few people think, which was the point of the exercise...and, also, we felt definitely emboldened, and took it from there.

When we were done, I posted both the story of our day and the flyer we handed out here at DU...and over the course of the next days, weeks and months, DUers posted their own stories about handing out our flier in their own towns and cities, the reactions they got, and the small bit of good it did...town after town, city after city, from sea to shining sea...and everyone who participated in the exercise felt emboldened, and took it from there.

The summer of 2002.

THAT is what DU used to be about.

No reason it can't be that way again.

[femmocrat]

1. If you printed flyers today, what would they be about?

It seems that having bush as a common enemy was a unifying factor back then. I think we are more "dispersed" and less cohesive today.

[WilliamPitt]

3. Iraq

Again.

You might have heard I printed a new flyer: http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Destruction-Iraq-Disintegration-Responsible-ebook/dp/B00ML3KAN6

[femmocrat]

4. No, I didn't know about it.

Congratulation and thanks for the link!

[Agony]

10. Dahr Jamail

and you...

flyers are a great idea... corporate personhood or... public banking...

Thanks!

P.S. and a recommendation from Dahlia Wasfi ! she's great!

[enough]

13. +1 (nt)

[Granny M]

134. Just bought it. nt

[Cleita]

2. How do we bring back Matcom and the many DUers, the ones who are still

alive, who made this the place for liberalism and yet have drifted off over the years?

[Arugula Latte]

29. Matcom was hilarious, too.

He really helped make the Lounge the ... uh ... festering pit that it is today.

[Cleita]

31. When I first posted, he welcomed me to DU with his little moon

ass emoticon. It made me laugh.

[blm]

37. heheh...Over at Bartcop we'd do impressions of matcom....

well...I wouldn't...I couldn't even post a picture without mr blm helping me. ; )

[Cleita]

39. I'll have to go there and look for myself.

[blm]

148. That was the OLD days of Bartcop - really old. ; )

MWO old.

[Cleita]

149. Yeah, I found out.

[trof]

158. Met Will and Matcom at Matcom's house for a cookout.

Them wuz the days.

[7wo7rees]

5. Thank you Will.

You have been there from the beginning.
I called you and asked you to please come to Crawford in 2005.

You have always nailed every issue, very proud to know ypu.

[xiamiam]

22. I remember that..cindy sheehan in a ditch and will and a few duers went down and fed us photos and

stories..then katrina happened and we were getting messages from the center of the city. I had a few martha mitchell meltdown moments during those days..a bottle of wine and me, let my fingers touch tone the white house numbers that were readily available on any number of action posts..never even wondered if i was on a list, i'm sure of it, lol.

[whatchamacallit]

106. Many DUers now rhetorically spit on her because she challenged the official account of 9/11

Sad that.

[NobodyHere]

145. Not to mention

that, at the time, many DUers themselves challenged the official 9/11 account.

[sabrina 1]

153. The 'left' is always the 'enemy' in this country. Mainly because they are not so easily manipulated

and become a threat to the powers that run everything here. I would be ashamed to 'spit' on the woman who did what all of us and our Corporate Media at the time, had FAILED to do.

She exposed the coward in the WH, Bush for what he was. He RAN from her when she asked him one simple questions: 'For what noble cause did my son die'. He had been able to lie and expound on 'liberty and patriotism' etc calling the soldiers, dead because of his lies, 'heroes'. No one challenged him, until Cindy, a mother of one of those soldiers, had the guts to demand the truth from him publicly.

His numbers began to drop, even former supporters wondered why he could not face her.

She learned a lot. At first she had the support of at least Democrats, or so it seemed. She learned later that she was USED by many of them until she was no longer needed and then became an embarrassment to those who never really cared about her dead son.

Being Cindy she spoke out against that too. And to some, we should not be surprised by this, she needed to be demonized, just as the Right had done.

To me she will be remembered always as the mother of a dead soldier who took on the entire, frighteningly dangerous Bush administration almost single handedly, out of her grief at the loss of her beloved son. And NOTHING can change that.

[whatchamacallit]

157. +1

[blm]

6. At DU and Bartcop we'd print the flyers and tuck them into books.

We'd also put notes in Left Behind books to let the buyer know that Rev Moon, the Korean cult leader, bankrolled Tim LaHaye and had a longtime alliance with the Bush family.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. THAT is activism!

[senseandsensibility]

7. I wish you could post a copy of the flier.

I would love to see it. I wonder if it would sound "radical" now. Probably not, I'm guessing.

[WilliamPitt]

12. It's buried in the archives of old DU.

Somewhere in the summer of 2002. GD.

[tularetom]

8. It's much easier to unite in opposition to something than in support of it

Back when we had a republican administration everybody here was in agreement that the entire crew, from the president on down, were war criminals who should have been on trial in the Hague instead of chortling about WMD's at DC press dinners and telling Brownie he did a heck of a job during Katrina.

Times have changed and we now have a Democratic administration. We no longer have unity here at DU. Some of us think the president has done a fantastic job in the face of unprecedented opposition from the opposing party, others believe he is a DINO who has sold his soul to Wall Street.

But everyone on DU pretty much hates John Boner, McConnell, and the rest of the orangoutangs in the republican party, and if they capture the White House in 2016, you may well see a return to the nostalgic days of 2002.

[Egnever]

17. 2002 was not a good time

It was a nightmare I hope never to return to. A sad awakening to how badly Americans can be manipulated with a little fear.

I hope we never ever have to experience that again.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

33. This ^ ^ ^

[RobertEarl]

23. tularetom

You just pointed out the huge disconnect we at DU have with Obama.

bush, we all agreed, is a criminal, but Obama does not agree with us. We thought he did, or should, but it is obvious that he sees many others as bigger criminals who are more deserving of jail time than bush and his ilk.

Bravo, tuaretom, for the point you made. Now if we at DU could just agree on that point, it might make it so that we actually could unite to change things.

[alfredo]

41. I never saw him other than a moderate Dem. He wasn't the Messiah, but he was

the pick of the litter. I knew he would be a competent president, and I think I was right.

[Tommymac]

45. Competent? Guess it depends if you are on Main Street or Wall Street.

Bankers free.

Financial industry still raping treasure from Our coffers.

Torture condoned and accepted.

Middle East - no end in sight.

Bush & Co. still free.

NSA.

Education being sold out to corporate interests.

Internet about to be sold out to Corporate interests.

Militarized police.

Re-emergence of Jim Crow in the guise of militarized police.

Koch brothers go largely unchallenged by this administration.

Union Card Check abandoned.

Coal and fossil fuels still king of the hill.

US falling further and further behind in education, quality of life, science.

OK - I'll concede ACA - but that is only a watered down version of what could have been. Could argue it bailed out the for profit Health Insurance Industry.

Obama Will go down in history as a mediocre corporate/centrist president. Sad because he could have been another Roosevelt - Teddy or Franklin. The times called for a real progressive...instead we got Doug Wilder.

[alfredo]

48. Considering the constant sabotage by the right wing, he's done pretty good. Some of his

policies rubbed me the wrong way, but I understood that he couldn't do as I wished.

[Tommymac]

86. We will have to agree to disagree.

A competent President would have found a way to forge a coalition to get more done. Early on Obama negotiated from a position of strength. He had the political capital of a landslide win in 2008 to swat down the DLC/3rd Way/Blue Dogs such as Lieberman. He squandered it away by giving away things before real negotiations even started, for example took the ACA public option off the table without being asked, in a bizarre show of bi-partisanship that no reasonable person expected to work. But of coarse he turned out to be one of the 3rd way pseudo Dems himself, not the Progressive that most Americans saw him to be in his run for the presidency.

He could have used the landslides' capital from 2008 to 2010 when he did have majorities in both Houses of Congress to show the rethugs who was really in charge - as most Americans expected him to do. Ironic thing was he did not have to succeed in passing many of the below agenda items, simply being perceived by The People as having a spine would have been enough. No crap about super majorities - other Presidents have gotten things done with at least one hostile house in Congress: Clinton, both Bush's, Reagan, Ford, Nixon, Eisenhower, and Truman included.

One could reasonably argue that if he had tried to push the real Progressive agenda of Hope and Change he ran on, and took a Banker or two to trial, charged some lower Bush minions such as Rumsfeld with War crimes, not appointed a Wall Street guy to his cabinet, fought for Card Check, not surrendered the Pubic Option without a fight (the PO was the part of his platform that persuaded me to vote for him over Hillary - I perceived it as the biggest critical difference in the 2 candidates as I knew the PO would really pave the way for Single Payer (another position Obama take the talk on but refused to even try to Walk the Walk)), re established Habeas Corpus and fought to have the Patriot Act repealed, that he would not have lost the House in 2010.

[Scuba]

87. +1,000

[zeemike]

94. +1

And had he taken a strong position the election of 2010 could have been much different.
It was a time in history we needed it.

[Tommymac]

150. Right On zeemike eom

[alfredo]

95. Remember, his opposition is coming from a place of virulent racism. Nothing he can do or

say can change the color of his skin. Republicans had painted him as the Kenyan anti Christ, making it impossible for them to even shake his hand. Where could he even start a meaningful working relationship when even acknowledging his legitimacy would mean being primaried by a well funded teabagger. Even if there were a few Republicans willing to work with him, they were too afraid of the backlash. You don't want Adelson or the Kochs on your case.

Those who thought he was a Liberal didn't check his voting record in Illinois and DC. I checked, so I went in the voting booth knowing the good, bad, and ugly. He was still heads and shoulders above McGruff and Barbie.


BTW, now that the civil part of the banking trials are being settled, look for criminal charges. They are coming not necessarily from the feds, but from the states like New York. Don't expect them to be easy.


The GOP is fighting for its life. Any success by the Democrats, or the nation as a whole, hurts them. Their only hope is to sabotage our government and hope it is blamed on the Dems.

[woo me with science]

112. +100000 This absolute fiction, that obstructionism is solely to blame,

has become today's Third Way equivalent of Orwell's "2+2=5."

It is repeated like a mantra, even though it is wholly, blatantly, glaringly inconsistent with reality.


Reality is reality:

The record shows aggressive, proactive pursuit of a corporate agenda.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3202395

CUT THE CRAP! Your Month in Review from the most "progressive" administration ever.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/~woo%20me%20with%20science

Torturers are patriots. Spying is American. Let's head into Iraq and fund the bombing of Gaza. Monsanto and Comcast into the administration. Food stamp cut signed into law. Rinse and repeat.

[Tommymac]

146. You had me at +

Thanks for the backup woo.

Enjoy a wonderful Labor Day weekend brought to you by our LIBERAL Union activist forefathers who bled for us.

[sabrina 1]

161. Excellent post ... 'that would not have lost the House in 2010!'

Exactly right. As most people understood.

[abakan]

116. He could've been a contender...

Biggest disappointment is we believed him to be a better man than he has shown himself to be. In my mind, there is little daylight between Obama and Bush. As my Mother said,"he's real good at speach-a-fying and not much else."

[cheapdate]

58. My thoughts exactly.

[sarge43]

91. Exactly

In a siege you don't snarl and snap at the guy or gal who has your back.

[valerief]

93. We have a Republican Congress, and that Congress is strangling America. nt

[BobbyBoring]

109. We have PLENTY to oppose!

First and foremost, we MUST oppose the possible take over of the Senate by rethugs. I ask everyone I see if they are voting in 2014. If they weren't planning on it, I explain the importance of it, offer to drive them, whatever. I plan on spending election day getting as many people as I can to the polls.

We have plenty of ammo! If a bunch of us do this, we can perhaps avoid what would be the final nail in Americas coffin.

[sabrina 1]

66. Back then we had principles. We opposed the invasion and killing of people in foreign countries.

We didn't say 'we oppose these things because we don't like Bush/Cheney'. We opposed them because they are wrong and criminal. We opposed turning the US into an Empire. We opposed stealing our democracy through the politics of fear.

As far as I knew we opposed all of these things because of how WRONG they are. Not because of WHO was in charge at the time. No one ever said 'we will NOT oppose these crimes when we get rid of Bush/Cheney.' But for quite a few on the Left, that is exactly what has happened.

We mocked the Right for their blind support of everything, no matter how clearly wrong it was, Bush/Cheney did. We mocked them for trying to excuse torture, the murder of the Iraqi people. And it was murder. We predicted the failure, we knew we were being lied to. THEY refused to acknowledge the danger to our democracy. Now we have, sadly, been proven to have been correct.

I don't know about you but I would have opposed all of it no matter who was in charge. I opposed Dems who ended up supporting these crimes. I never supported one of them since. That is why I supported Obama because HE was outspoken about how he opposed these things also. He was the ONLY candidate with a chance of winning who HAD opposed them.

I haven't changed, I still oppose torture, with ZERO excuses for it, I still oppose our invasions of foreign countries, I don't believe the fear-mongering now any more than I did then when it was even harder, as Will points, to openly say that.

I haven't changed, but something has.

[zeemike]

97. I have not changed either.

What has changed is our commitment to the morality based reasons for supporting a party.

[woo me with science]

114. Beautiful post.

Something surely has.

[zeemike]

152. And I agree with you.

It was a thing of beauty...I would tell her myself but I don't want to sound like a fan.

And something has surly changed...and it is not me when it comes to principles...Integrity is important.
But I love change when it makes things better...it is the direction that matters.

[hifiguy]

124. Beautiful post, sabrina1

Though a common enemy like Chimpoleon is a very effective unifying force.

[WilliamPitt]

125. This.

[awoke_in_2003]

131. Spot on. nt

[enigmatic]

147. +1

Blind allegiance to a political party and/or politician is wrong, no matter what the party and/or politician. This board used to have the self-awareness to understand this back then, now, not so much.

My only allegiance is to the core ideals that I believe in.

[suffragette]

151. "I haven't changed, but something has."

Perfectly stated.

[MuseRider]

14. I printed some out that you posted

and left them at places like coffee shops in with the magazines, book stores and waiting rooms. It WAS kinda scary because here in Kansas I was listening to a local radio show host who kept saying that they needed to gather up all the liberals and shoot them.

DU was a great place, one I liked to come to, I craved coming in and relished all the discussion. I learned so much. I remember feeling pretty welcome then, not so much now in fact I stay away just because I can't take the crap that poses as discussion. Nothing ever gets solved or to a point because it is all just crappy disagreement and distraction.

YMMV of course.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Old friend.

[MuseRider]

21. Been a long ride hasn't it?

Perhaps it will cycle back. Until then keep on keeping on and smooch on Lola.

[WilliamPitt]

108. Long and long.

Smooch delivered.

[alfredo]

43. I did a wheat paste campaign in town. I made a four per sheet image of Bush with a

brief comment like "American Psycho", "Your Brain on Drugs", and "War Criminal." I put them online for others to use. I saw one as part of a freeway blog. I put one 8X10 with the image of "Sparky" and the question, "Who Would Jesus Torture." I pasted them up on a Saturday night in places where churchgoers would see them when they left the service. They stayed attached long enough for the ink to fade. I did that in the heart of the suburbs.

[MuseRider]

44. All of it helped

You just never know who it will spark a thought with.

[alfredo]

47. That's it. I looked at it as an art installation.

[madfloridian]

16. We used to post a lot about the Pottery Barn effect...if you break it you buy it.

We often warned here about the instability we were causing in the middle east.

Has anyone been able to find some of those in the archives?

I have found links, but they are dead. It would be 2002, 2003 most likely, maybe before...

Well, we broke it...

Howard Dean often said that once we were there, we were there and we couldn't get out. Everyone called him a liar.

[FarPoint]

18. Thank you Will...

You do know, you were a main artery of DU productivity then and now.

[xiamiam]

19. no, Will, it wont be about that again

not this site..but another site perhaps, with different fighters, with new hope, younger blood with new ideas....DU was all that and more for a while but things changed after Obama. of course what happens here on Du has nothing to do with obama, but that's when it started..rahm and his message management of all of the progressive internet sites, initially, somehow, changed what we were 'allowed' to criticize..so just like the days when I found a safe place here to criticize all things Bush, when none other existed, Du became a place where criticism of those same policies, was met with attacks, suspicion, grief....and an attempt at justification....

thats as close as I can pinpoint when du changed..it is what it is..a good site..it was an extraordinary site ...i'm glad i experienced it and it took a long time to realize and accept what it has morphed into..There will always be young or old revolutionaries with great ideas and compassionate hearts working their tails off to make the world a better place..i dont think du will be the place they gravitate to.

[johnnyreb]

20. From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August.

I remember. I was indisposed from joining at the time, but DU saved me from the sudden crowd of glassy-eyed zombies around me. With that strength, I was able to save some.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. It won't be that way again for as long as a Democrat is president.

It's much easier to agree about being against things that for them.

[shaayecanaan]

89. and the democrats are always more principled in opposition

than they are in government.

[stevenleser]

164. You can cross out "the democrats are" and put "just about everyone is" instead

It's always easier to spout principles from the sidelines than it is to always govern by them when you are in charge, particularly in a Democracy where other folks get votes on whether or not to implement your principled policies.

[GP6971]

25. I thought late 2002 and 2003 was the low point

for me, politically speaking. I don't think I'm alone when I say DU was a lifesaver.....kind of a safe haven to retreat from the utter bullshit being thrown out by the Bush thugs. Objective and very personal emotions were displayed without fear of retribution and personal attack.

How times have changed.

[Historic NY]

26. Voting, paper ballots, GOTV,

electronic voting, important things....today its ponies and unicorns.

[Faryn Balyncd]

27. Thank you, Will..... (& that;s the way it NEEDS to be again.)

[liberal N proud]

28. I have been here since 2004

My purpose was to find like minded people in the fight against the bu$h regime. I think I found DU from a Mother Jones. I was instantly hooked by the integrity of users, the insistance on facts in threads and a demanding audience.

A lot of that has gone, there are a lot of people here now who will accept less than fact if it will fit their view, but much of it is still here and it is still the best place for information you can trust more than most other places. I am still hooked.

[customerserviceguy]

101. Same here, joined in 2004

At that time, we were engaged in a fight to keep Shrub from having a second term.

Now, we spend a lot of time on topics that focus heavily on our differences with each other. I guess that's what happens when you win the White House, you lose a common enemy to rally against.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. I met DUer proud patriot at an anti-war rally for Iraq.

It was a great day of inspirational speeches and shouting anti war slogan in the midst of what is considered a conservative-for-the-SF Bay-area city. The organizers expected a few hundred, but 5000+ showed up.

Country Joe did the fish cheer, updated. Congressman George Miller spoke as did an Iraq vet who was completely, absolutely against the war.


That's what DU was like back then.

[Arugula Latte]

32. I remember feeling absolutely terrified in 2002 and 2003 -- and this was in Portland, Oregon.

I had a weird feeling that even people in Portland had turned into Bush-patriot-Zombies; mainly because of all the 'murikin flags everywhere. It wasn't until 2004, when Kerry signs started popping up like mushrooms all over the neighborhood and my kids reported how kids on their school bus booed a Bush sign in someone's yard, that I felt better about my people.

[Vattel]

35. I remember in 2003 the Baltimore PD kicking protesters off their bikes.

A Baltimore cop told me that if you oppose the war in Baltimore you are gonna get hurt.

[Arugula Latte]

113. Wow, that is awful.

It was stunning how quickly the society grabbed onto groupthink facist thinking. I remember thinking: "Okay, I understand now how the Nazis were able to completely take over."

As a sidenote, we went to a protest in Portland and I was interviewed by a local TV news station. I didn't realize at the time that it was a Fox affiliate. Well, guess what they did with my words? Cut them so it seemed like I was pro-Bush instead of anti. Fuckers.

[Vattel]

135. It was scary how much the news media and the government worked together.

[unapatriciated]

34. I didn't know DU existed until 2004

didn't always have internet in the Sierra's and cash was in short supply (we had just finished a four month strike). We were involved with Move-On at the time and hosted a few house parties. Hubby (lame54) and I did go out and register voters. We went every night to our local theater when Fahrenheit 911 was playing. We spoke to many young people and registered just about everyone we spoke to. Kerry won our district by a slim margin.
I started reading DU on a regular basis in 2005 (a link from bartcop, hubby loved him) but didn't join until 2007.

We started attending Peace Rallies and became more active politically when we moved back down to Southern California in late 2004. There was not much activism in a small (very red) ski resort town in Northern California.

[alfredo]

36. Success is poison to unity. When we had Bush, we were united by a common foe.

[Owl]

38. I'm a DU oldster from 2001 and remember it all well.

I remember also a long-ago post with your blow-by-blow of watching FOX news for a long stretch of time. It was hilarious!

I miss Matcom too.

Still fighting the good Democratic fight.

[Lugnut]

111. I've been here since 2001 as well.

An online acquaintance gave me the link to DU and I've been here ever since.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

40. It was a frightening but exciting time.

My boys were just about to turn eighteen, and once I had done some extensive
Researching and became confident that I did not want my boys to become blood for oil, I started sneaking out at midnight putting up signs on bridges stating the War in Iraq was a Lie, and that W and dick were war criminals. I sat outside of a rotary on Cape with signs stating the same, some young blonde chick with a degree and a job and was flipped off and screamed at to get a job you commie, go back to Russia, or China,....until one day a Vietnam Vet heard about me and brought the Boston Vets for Peace to stand with me 9 years ago at the Bourne Rotary shout out Unhappy camper!

Almost a decade later, and though not a prolific poster, I remain an avid reader, and have both loved and then loathed you at times Will Pitt! And am working on bringing a community bill of rights to the Cape with a great group of activists! And to think of what we have witnessed in A decade! It is quite daunting! And frightening...but, It is happening, and I intend to be a part of it! Eyes opened! Full steam ahead! With my iPhone taping video! Gonna film the Climate march, check out if the police be wearing name tags! I will be in my honey bee costume! Peace, Shanti, Namaste! BTW I'm I'm my loving you mode WP!

[msanthrope]

42. DU will never return to those days, Will, and you should acknowledge your part in that.

This is a partisan site founded in 2001 to elect Democrats. It's still doing that. So I do not miss any particular time on DU because DU is still doing the purpose it was created for.

I do think that comity is not helped by divisive OPs that castigate a popular Democratic President.


.

[RobertEarl]

50. You?

Complaining about comity? Now, that's comedy.

Obama has just told us "Everything is alright, just sign off from the DU social media and the world will look fine".

The only reason Obama may be popular is: what else is there? McCain? Romney?

Thank heavens for brave people like Pitt who are willing to demand better from our government rather than just attacking those who see things differently than they, with their head-in-the-sand, Obama worship.

[msanthrope]

53. Ah..and you insult a popular Democratic President again. In defense of Mr. Pitt.

Thus illustrating my point. Thank you.

[RobertEarl]

55. Poor weddle Obama

Being attacked by a DUer. OMG!!

You don't have a point. It is just a dull rock which you cast every which way at anyone who might see things different from you.

Too bad you can't be more like the Pitt man. Thanks, William for your bravery!

[sheshe2]

80. Is it brave to call this President a POS?

Criticize as you wish, I have no problems with that.Complete disrespect of a sitting Democratic President on a Democratic board? Yes I have problems with that.

Remember Joe Wilson "You Lie!" at the SOTU? I do.

[sheshe2]

81. He did indeed~

[Gormy Cuss]

52. As a lifelong Democrat, I treasure my ability to criticize elected Democratic officials

whenever and for whatever reason and still be treated as a Democrat. If I wanted to be part of a lock-step political party, I'd chose differently.

[msanthrope]

56. There are critiques...and then there are rants and screeds that reveal the ignorance of

the person posting them. The former helps the Party...the latter serves the opposition.

[MannyGoldstein]

59. And then there's

[cheapdate]

143. I agree.

When moral outrage and righteous indignation over some issue turns to absolute condemnation of the entirety of Barack Obama's presidency and the whole of the Democratic Party you've gone too far.

When stridency and vehemence take the place of reasonable discussion, it takes the fun out of it.

[Logical]

61. +1000, it is amazing how people whine about us not worshiping Obama daily. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

67. I like Obama. He's a quantum leap better than Bush.

That said, I don't think flowers bloom from his backside. Sometimes the call made by his admin feels wrong to me and I'll be damned if I'm gonna give him a pass on that.

[sheshe2]

72. Yes and read here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025462885#post68

maybe you can answer the question. GC ignored it and answered something else. Not sure what, just a rote answer I guess.

[ablamj]

137. I don't think all of

the criticism and/or disrespect is due to race. I know most of it from the right is, but not from the left. I believe that if DU had been around at the time, Will Pitt (or others on DU) would have most certainly called Clinton a POS at least once. Disrespect of a President is not new. I just think there is more of it now because so much of it IS due to the President's race.

I did not like or condone Joe Wilson's disrespect as I think that wasn't the time or place for it and it was most certainly due to President Obama's race. (But of course now some Republican will do the same to the next white Dem President and say, "see it wasn't because of race.&quot But I don't have a problem with a writer calling any President names on a website. I wouldn't approve of him going to the Oval Office and saying it to President Obama's face - again wrong time and place. But in general I don't have a problem with it here as long as it isn't due to race which, in Will Pitt's case, i don't think it was. I also wouldn't have had a problem with Will Pitt being banned for that as it is up to the Admin's to decide who can stay and who should go on this website. The Admins can decide if disrespect is allowed or not here.

I would hope they would stamp out disrespect due to race. Just as i hope one day they will stamp out disrespect due to gender. (Yes I'm a proud supporter of HOF).

[sheshe2]

68. Please,

I wish to ask you a question and I would appreciate an honest answer, Gormy Cuss.

When does criticism cross the line to become outright disrespect? Total Abusive and Utter Disrespect when our Democratic President is called a POS. Is that okay here? Did you have a problem when Joe Wilson at SOTU address yelled out to Obama "YOU LIED" Did you have an issue with that? Yes he was GOP yet we have Dem's here on DU that say that and worse every damn day.

So, I ask you when does criticism become disrespect of this man? Does any of it have to do with the fact he is black? Sometimes I wonder.

[Gormy Cuss]

70. Criticism is saying "I don't agree with the admin on this issue."

That's not disrespect, that's a difference of opinion and most of what I see on Democratic or left leaning boards falls into that category.
I'll vote GOP only when the Democratic nominee is so bankrupt, or corrupt, or feckless that I can't see them ever being an effective tool of the center/left Democrats. Last time I voted for a GOPer was Bill Weld in MA because John Silber was totalitarian.

[sheshe2]

71. You 100%

side stepped my question!

Not surprising in the least!

[Gormy Cuss]

73. I answered the relevant question.

If you think that was a side step I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

It's not my job to decide when criticism goes beyond whatever bounds you find appropriate. I stated where I draw the line.

[sheshe2]

77. Really?

You answered my question here from my last post? Really? Where did you answer what I said below?

When does criticism cross the line to become outright disrespect? Total Abusive and Utter Disrespect when our Democratic President is called a POS. Is that okay here? Did you have a problem when Joe Wilson at SOTU address yelled out to Obama "YOU LIED" Did you have an issue with that? Yes he was GOP yet we have Dem's here on DU that say that and worse every damn day.

So, I ask you when does criticism become disrespect of this man? Does any of it have to do with the fact he is black? Sometimes I wonder.

Oh wait! I got it! Calling the president a pos on Du is okay. Disrespecting him is okay by Dem or Repuke cause as you stated....right here...

It's not my job to decide when criticism goes beyond whatever bounds you find appropriate. I stated where I draw the line.

It's not your job to decide. Ya you already did. Got it! Signed sealed and frigging delivered.

Criticism is saying "I don't agree with the admin on this issue."

This was your answer and no you never answered what I asked. THIS WAS YOUR ANSWER!

That's not disrespect, that's a difference of opinion and most of what I see on Democratic or left leaning boards falls into that category.
I'll vote GOP only when the Democratic nominee is so bankrupt, or corrupt, or feckless that I can't see them ever being an effective tool of the center/left Democrats. Last time I voted for a GOPer was Bill Weld in MA because John Silber was totalitarian.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025462885#post70

[Gormy Cuss]

92. Really.

I'm not a hall monitor.

[Logical]

60. See I think your attitude is the problem.....

Obama has done some things wrong. Made some mistakes.

And people like you get mad if people complain about him. And you think it ruins the DU.

I would NEVER vote for a GOP candidate, but fuck, Obama has made many mistakes. And is not the guy I campaigned for in 2008.

Better than any of their people, but still could of done much better.

Start your own forum where no one can complain about a democrat. I remember the GOP did that when Bush was in office. They thought he was PERFECT.

[Warren Stupidity]

90. prosense did a much better job at propping up the party line.

[treestar]

100. +1

Some people, it turns out, can't stop being negative.

[QC]

46. In those days, I used to tell people things I learned on DU,

and they would generally reply along the lines of, "How do you know all this stuff?' and I would tell them about DU.

I don't often tell people about DU anymore, because they are far more likely to be insulted than to learn anything now. That's what the New and Improved DU is mostly about now. Sad, but there you have it.

[Pholus]

102. Absolutely agree.

That was inevitable when the White House shifted hands. Let me say right up front -- Bush's presidency could not have continued and the pile of elephant doo-doo he left behind was more than any human clean up in a few years. Our president has done a lot of great stuff and overall I'm glad he was elected.

The DU that both you and I remember had a goal, which was to pierce through Karl Rove's "manufactured reality" that he bragged about. The Bushies were liars, every one, and they weren't even good at it (and were arrogant enough to think that didn't matter). So we could sit here and repeatedly and easily prove their bullshit to be bullshit and we all had a hell of a good time doing it.

The administration changed though, and with it we WANT the ending to that story to be perfect. But in some major cases, involving our relationship with corporations, or budget negotiations and our foreign policy it has NOT been perfect. Only this time, it isn't flat out lies -- it's interpretations -- again an improvement of sorts -- but nothing is clear cut like it used to be.

So when the failures are spun in shades of gray and it's about our own team we're not going to get a lot of "Hells yeah" moments like we used to.

My disappointment is that we turned out to be nowhere near as objective or idealistic as we seemed back then. But, as gets pointed out this is "Democratic Underground" and so it does mean we are saying up front that we expect a bias in how we interpret things...

I had really hoped Discussionist would turn into the kind of critical analysis place that DU was when the bad guys were the bad guys and even looked forward to seeing the righties who could reason, but they are few and far between and the Jury system doesn't seem to work on either site because gaming/ganging the system is possible.
Pity

[ozone_man]

49. It seemed more to be the democratic wing of the Democratic Party back then.

Strangely, as much as the centrist/conservative wing has tried to impress their point of view, it seems to not have taken effect. I guess there are simply too many liberal/left, intelligent, individual thinkers here.

There is plenty of heated dialogue, battles perhaps, but that is one of the things that probably makes DU work.

[Jackpine Radical]

51. I remember your reports on those adventures. (nt)

[Crewleader]

54. How I remember William, you guys are Patriots!

I miss Matcom....

[kentuck]

84. True "patriots"...

...and you too, Crewleader. Good to see you are still with us.

[Crewleader]

103. True Patriots indeed kentuck

and YOU included!

[carolinayellowdog]

140. Kudos to all your wonderful posts from back in the day

does my heart good to see your username

[Crewleader]

141. You touch my heart carolinayellowdog

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

57. I recall

that it was about 'holy shit, Bush is gonna start a war! What can we do to stop him?' And then he did and we didn't................ Nowadays it seems to be more about 'you are an idiot' kind of posts

[xiamiam]

65. yep, worried about bush and iraq? now we've got russia, syria, iraq, isis, ukraine, nsa, missing

passenger planes, trillions and trillions of wasted dollars and dead people, guantanamo, rendition, and local police outfitting themselves with surplus military gear to use against us citizens. All brought to us by the same despicable war mongers and war profiteers, weapons manufacturers...etc etc etc. We thought we knew who the enemy was before..we were mistaken because greed and lust for power have few principles and certainly no singular party affiliation.

[TransitJohn]

62. Sadly, the owners had other designs

Many purges later, most of the good ones that are left have moved on.

[Notafraidtoo]

63. We didn't tolerate conservitives back in the day.

Now trolls and think tanks run this place. If DU was like this back when Bush was president I would have thought it was a moderate conservative site.

[Baitball Blogger]

64. One can only hope.

[sabrina 1]

69. "It was an astonishingly paranoid and fearful time if you weren't "on board" with the program, and

actually had the gumption to say so in public".

It's hard to go back there now and remember how fearful a time it was for those who knew they were lying. I remember being threatened with death on several Right Wing dominated forums. Of being 'turned in to Homeland Security'. I remember reading about Librarians and others who WERE harassed by the FBI.

AND I remember a member of the Dem Forum I was posting on when 9/11 happened and the war drums were beating, 'disappearing' after making a fairly benign comment which we knew at THAT time could get him trouble. We debated erasing it, I was a moderator, but the site manager and we agreed that that might make it worse.

The site was contacted after someone (most of us pretty much suspected who) 'turned him in'. A warrant was issued for his info as the site had refused to cooperate voluntarily.

We heard later his life was pretty much ruined, turned upside down. He was disabled and a very private person, very funny too. He never came back and we were never able to find out what happened to him. We knew then they were watching political forums, particularly on the Left.

But rather than STOP attacking Bush we all decided to continue to do so. They couldn't arrest everyone.

I also remember Ari Fleischer's chilling warning: 'They better watch what they say'.

And the arguments among families, some cutting off their family and friends. And finding it impossible to watch TV anymore, for fear of even catching a glimpse of Bush.

Now we are expected to forget what caused all these intense reactions and accept excuses for the continuation of our interventions all over the planet.

Why? Where did all these people who are so willing to 'look the other way' now come from? I don't remember a single Democrat throughout those years who was not outraged by it all.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Politics. Now, not so much n/t

[gate of the sun]

75. My husband Hedgetrimmer and I copied these flyers

And handed them out in Santa Fe at the farmers market... It was an interesting day. I don't post here anymore only lurk but I was here when Du was different, we really informed each other. it was passionate with an ideal to get the truth out...

[Rex]

76. GD is the same as it has always been.

LBN still posts news and The Lounge is for goofing off. Lots of groups. Got that Other site if you want to fight with troglodytes.

Things change. We can still talk about anything. Seems a little more skeptical now, but I am older and more jaded after the BFEE bullshit. Maybe a certain generation is more skeptical after the shenanigans of Bush/Cheney. Warmongering shenanigans.

[grasswire]

78. I often think that fliers are the best way to get the word out.

Considering the MSM's betrayal of the people and the wussification of big-money Dems who will not fight TPTB.

[jaysunb]

79. We also used to have great

get togethers and attend mutual meet ups to do our bit. Organizing in our own areas and proudly posting our activities here. Hundreds of us meeting face to face in Washington to protest the invasion of Iraq.

But, then we got noticed....we weren't so "underground" anymore.

Paid disruption and chaos came with growth.

I hardly recognize the DU of 2002.

[Corey_Baker08]

82. I Was 14 When I Joined in 2004, & That Is Still What DU Was About!

I also remember you and I had and still have so much respect for you and would always look forward to your post. I am myself wandering what DU is coming to these days. Back in those days we were united against the Bush Administration, Republicans, and Election Fraud. It seems todays' DU is more about bashing Democrats than holding Republicans accountable.

Thats how I truly feel, it seems like two different sites since then....

[sendero]

88. Could that be...

.. because the Democrats that were going to "save the day" turn out to be little different than their predecessors? Because that is what I think is going on.

How do you root for the good guys when there really aren't any? Less bad is as good as it gets, and it is hardly inspiring.

[kentuck]

83. Thanks to Will Pitt and all those that have fought the long battle...

The majority of DU probably was not around and does not remember the hard struggle that we had to endure just to be heard. They probably do not remember the "free speech" zones, the tear gas, the over-whelming support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, especially in the media. The 10% that was part of DU never surrendered and never gave an inch to the fascists like Dick Cheney. It is a battle that is never won. Every day must begin anew the effort to inform and educate the people of America or else we will all be driven asunder...

[liberal_at_heart]

85. We had a republican to oppose then. Now we have a democratic president and he gets a free pass

from many DUers.

[nashville_brook]

96. DU is still about not getting 'in line'

There are certain principles that Dems expect to be upheld. When we see those principles being "horse traded," or trampled we voice our opposition. We do this b/c we know that's the only way things change.

When it's done within the party it gives political cover to those who want to do the right thing but are being shouted down by monied interests. What good is a Dem persona/president, who can't/won't work in the interest of those who elected him?

Take immigration reform for example. Obama said he'd use executive power if the House wouldn't act on the Senate's reform bill. NOW we're told nothing will happen until AFTER the midterm elections.

In terms of principle, this just stinks. In terms of party politics this screws Dems who COULD be campaigning on principled action on reform. The massive coalition that's worked on immigration reform for the last 2 years is fracturing. Where there could be power built, we have the opposite: power dismantled.

So, many are not getting "in line." And you'll see a lot more criticism coming from folks who should otherwise be stalwart supporters. It's not b/c they left the party -- it's b/c the party left them…literally left them behind.

[whereisjustice]

98. Here's what happened...

99% of Democrats in Senate voted for Patriot Act in 2001
70% of Democrats in House voted for Patriot Act in 2001

40% of Democrats in House voted for war with Iraq in 2002
58% of Democrats in Senate voted for war with Iraq in 2002

77% of Democrats in Senate voted for Patriot Act in 2006
35% of Democrats in House voted for Patriot Act in 2006 (4 didn't vote)

Number of personnel prosecuted for lies leading to Iraq War? 0
Number of personnel prosecuted for torture since 2002? 0
Number of prosecutions for NSA and CIA lying to Congress since 2002? 0
Number of Wall Street executives prosecuted for the fraud that caused world wide economic chaos since 2008? 0
Marijuana related arrests since 2002? Approx. 8,000,000

These are astonishing (horrifying) numbers given the implications. By 2006 EVERYONE knew the Iraq war was based on lies and deception. The motives behind the Patriot Act were no less deceitful.

The victims of these historic events were ordinary, non-rich people, 100,000+ Iraqi people slaughtered, thousands of US lives sacrificed, millions displaced. Millions around the global lost jobs and faced economic ruin, and we (other than the rich) have not recovered.

Democrats in Congress and the White House chose not to unify the Democratic Party around the principals of justice at the core of these historic events. Instead the non-rich have been subjected to erosion of civil rights, while the rich and powerful receive exemptions from justice and deferential treatment from ALL branches of government.

As losers of the class war, we have no government of our own. We are afraid of the rich. When we attempt to hold elected leaders accountable for the devastation they cause, neither party stands with us and the rich threaten to hurt us even more.

That's why it will never be that way again.

[woo me with science]

117. This should be an OP. It's a thoroughly depressing post,

but true. "Neither party stands with us and the rich threaten to hurt us even more."

DU is full of lying corporate voices smearing liberals and denying the truth of what corporate infiltration has done to our party, and whom it's really working for now.

[carolinayellowdog]

139. but there are voices like yours that won't be silenced

and carry more weight than a thousand authoritarian apologists for the 1%

[Caretha]

154. Could not have

said it better myself.

Been here since 2002...really before, was a member of another site called the "Smirking Chimp" and my sister talked me into signing up here, saying DU was the real deal. It was back then.

You won't get a response to your excellent post from any of the corporate shills that claim anyone who doesn't hold the utmost respect for a corporate Democratic president is a disloyal SOB.

But I know them for what they are....and so does every Democrat that ever was truly a Democrat.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

155. Kick. (n/t)

[G_j]

160. this

"As losers of the class war, we have no government of our own."

[paulkienitz]

99. with the current news and topics, it feels less like 2002 than like

having to go back and refight the battles of 1970. I never thought that in 2014 we'd have to put basic issues like respect for women and equal rights for black citizens on the front burner again.

To still have to be fighting for the environment, that I expected.

[Enthusiast]

104. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

Thank you, WilliamPitt!

I was late to find DU so I do not know how it was back in the day. Thank you.

[yellowwoodII]

105. We were "mooned"

The one and only time I marched against the Iraq war, we were "mooned." That wasn't what deterred me. It just seemed so futile

I found DU and joined during that time. (under a different name; I lost my password).

My perception then was that DU was all about avoiding that war. It seems to me now that sometimes the DU has lost its focus so that now it features relatively minor issues. (Others may not see them that way, I understand.)

I still think that avoiding wars is our highest priority, and I thank Obama for that although he comes under a lot of criticism for not being more hawkish. When I think of what we could pay for without our military spending, it makes me sick. Not to mention the human loss, of all kinds. I'm not proud of what we've done to other countries, either.

I will "never forget" the people who pushed us into that horrible mistake. The PNAC, etc.

That's what I think it's all about.

[SomethingFishy]

107. I joined DU in 2004 (I was walldude in those days)

It was the Top 10 Conservative Idiots that attracted me.

DU was an oasis in the middle of a right wing fascist nightmare. I remember listening to Reggie Rivers on the radio in Denver. Reggie was the only one on the radio not on board with the Patriot Act, the war in Iraq, and all the insanity after 9/11. The only one asking any questions at all. Then one day I turned the radio on and Reggie was gone, gone not because of ratings, but because of what he was saying... and I knew we were fucked. Luckily I found my way here

[DRoseDARs]

110. DU was founded on 01/20/2001 because of the outright theft of the '00 election...

And again in 2004, but we aren't allowed to say that in polite company anymore. Cries of "conspiracy theories" and "move on" and "What will the mainstream voters/media think of DU?" all that...

THAT is what DU used to be about.

[Rex]

115. Well it is sad that people mock you if you bring up the BFEE.

Like it never happened and that PNAC didn't exist etc..

[NutmegYankee]

118. We were under siege back then.

The early Bush years had us all feeling as though we were being ground down and silenced and we pulled together on the web to fight back. When the danger had seemingly passed after President Obama was elected, we lost that community under siege "must band together" feeling and have been eating each other alive since.

[WilliamPitt]

119. Pro tip:

We're still under siege.

[NutmegYankee]

120. Agree, but we don't act like it anymore.

While we squabble over picayune issues, the repubs are about to take the Senate and destroy our best shot at national healthcare for decades.

[theHandpuppet]

121. On the other hand, look what happened with the Hobby Lobby protest

Though there was some great support for this effort, there were also those who made a point of telling us that protests and boycotts were a waste of our time. That really pissed me off.

[hfojvt]

122. but a year later something had gone terribly wrong

and DU was a cesspool

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196554#197873

[tammywammy]

123. Good find

[salin]

165. Old Timers - Read this thread

if nothing else for the nostalgia of seeing some old (and long missed) familiar names.

I think things cycle around here. There are periods when shiny new objects become like rabbits spawning a ton of threads. There are time when serious discussions are had. There are threads that attract antagonists.

I don't post much anymore - don't often have the time - and in a discussion forum as large as DU is now, one has to be around for a while to actually converse on topics (that is - the forums move fast.)

All that said - the linked thread is like a walk down memory lane. Thanks for posting.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

126. Back in the "Islamofascist" / "Freedom Fries" era when flag symbols were everywhere....

Amazing to watch them fade later into the old and tattered pink white and baby blue.

[sabrina 1]

132. I remember telling a Right Winger at the time when he asked me if I had yellow ribbon

or a flag displayed anywhere, that I was willing to bet a million dollars that those yellow ribbons would mean nothing to those so vocally claiming their support when those soldiers returned and needed support. I asked HIM how many veterans living on the street he was actively trying to help?

Also predicted those symbols would soon be tattered remnants of what was a very effective propaganda campaign which he was participating in either wittingly or unwittingly.

Would like to find him now and ask him how many Iraq Veterans he's supporting and what happened to his yellow ribbons and flags?

Told him we on the Left do way more for veterans than wave flags and yellow ribbons. Naturally he called me a traitor, lol.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

144. I reminded a Right Winger that the SONG was about a guy getting out of prison.

[secondwind]

127. K&R AMEN!

[moniss]

128. Great post and I think I can help a little

As one who has been here all along and is long in the tooth, let me try to shed some light and give some encouragement. I have been an activist/revolutionary/draft dodger/civil rights fighter since the days of MLK. I have seen the cycle many times of first blush activism and it's energy and camaraderie evolve as it ages and begins to question itself etc. It is normal. We're OK. We need to keep working and focusing our efforts. So too must we all sometimes take a breath. So for your holiday viewing pleasure I would like to suggest a movie that can help with all of what is being expressed in this thread. The movie is called "Jonah Who Will Be 25 In The Year 2000". I think we will all see that we are all trying to peel an orange and just starting from different places.

[rock]

129. You push my buttons on a related note, Will

What you say is true: DU was for political discussion and action. Now at that time the DUers were much more polite and cooperative than they are currently. I suspect it is because we have been led in that new direction by the republicans. Over the last few decades (but especially the last few years), as they lost all real content in their strategies and their thought have instead developed audacious and ludicrous means to sell their brand, now roughly equivalent to skunk-piss. As you say we can be that way again, but we probably need a long bath.

[mahina]

130. Two of us did the same that week here. We handed out Anthony Zinni's quotes and facts

With action steps. Thanks for reminding me Will. I was reading DU but probably not posting. We're still here, still working.

I was just thinking we could do some serious GOTV in this primary election. Aloha Will.

[ablamj]

133. The problem is

that this is a pro Democratic Party site so we are expected to agree with anything a Democratic politician says or does. The party has just moved too far to the right. I believe it started moving rightward when Reagan was elected. In fact both parties moved rightward then so now we have people in the party who used to be Republican. They haven't changed their views; the Dem Party just moved to their position. Now the party doesn't really represent those of us on the left - we are now considered "far left."

[randome]

136. Misogyny? No, wait, that's what it's about now.

Give me a minute, I can get his.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[carolinayellowdog]

138. It was about the real American dream fighting against what had turned into a nightmare

Now it is about defenders of the nightmare attacking those who still try to advocate for the dream.

[blkmusclmachine]

142. I remember that we had to accept Bush's telling of 9/11 as the unvarnished truth, remain silent, or

be banished from posting on sites like DailyKos and others.

And, yeah, 9/11 was definitely used against regular Americans in a programmatic, preconceived manner with the Patriot Act I, Patriot Act II, and all the other Constitution-stripping laws signed into existence in the months and years following 9/11.

And now we have spy drones flying our neighborhoods to keep a watchful eye and ear on our comings and goings.


OPERATION: NORTHWOODS

[Marrah_G]

156. I love this thread

[krawhitham]

159. This site use to have standards

I remember when calling a sitting Democratic President a piece of shit used-car salesman would get you Tombstoned



You are right I sure do miss the old days

[WilliamPitt]

162. You do?

Interesting. There were no sitting Democratic presidents for the first eight years this place existed.

When was this again?

[Electric Monk]

163. .

^