Fact: Man on Woman, Woman on Man, any combination, ALL are reprehensible Forms of Domestic Violence.

[NYC_SKP]

Anyone who suggest that one form of interpersonal violence is of greater concern than another is distracting, selfishly, from the conversation that really needs to be had:

All Domestic Violence is WRONG.

It's not a fucking contest.

Add to the list, violence perpetrated upon children and animals..

I speak as a witness AND a victim of two of these forms of abuse.

End of message.

[ZombieHorde]

1. That is actually an opinion.

However, I strongly disagree with domestic violence regardless of the sexes or genders of those involved.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Violence against a man, a woman, a Latino, an Asian...

What makes us inclusive is that we are equally shocked by all forms of violence.

Naturally, it's negligent to discard the demographics in finding solutions, but to suggest that one set of victims is in any way more "important" is, itself, a form of bigotry.

I could provide examples, examples abound these days. For example, crimes against immigrants is grossly underreported, crimes against children, as reported by adults, hardly reported at all.

YMMV.

[ZombieHorde]

50. I am not suggestion one form of domestic violence is worse than another form.

I am suggesting that good and bad are opinions, as opposed to facts.

[Rex]

8. Why is that an opinion?

Just curious.

[salib]

18. Here it is:

From the OP:
"Anyone who suggest that one form of interpersonal violence is of greater concern than another is distracting, selfishly, from the conversation that really needs to be had"

That IS an opinion.

Also, it misses the point.

Let me clarify: all violence is wrong.

OK. Are we done? Is that all that can be said on the subject of domestic abuse?

Anyone? Anyone?

Yes. After we all agree on that one. Let's try to do something about it. Right?

Now, being a good American I was trained to try to solve a problem by first identifying the most common scenarios in which it occurs.

TA DA.

Let's concentrate on male Against female domestic violence.

Right? Right?

It's pretty obvious.

And quite disingenuous to stop at "all domestic violence is bad."

Got it now?

Good.

[Rex]

21. I didn't ask for your opinion, why is 'all domestic violence is bad" not a fact?

I will wait until someone can come along and explain it without inserting their own opinion, got it?

Good.

[ZombieHorde]

46. Because human life and happiness has no inherent value.

Destroying people isn't objectively or inherently anything other than destroying people. The repulsion we feel is added to the situation.

There is no scientific test for badness or goodness because there is no badness or goodness. We project those qualities onto people and situations based upon our own subjective values.

[Rex]

49. So how do you account for facts? They just don't exist?

That is almost like saying history doesn't count, because it is in the past and we live in the present.

[ZombieHorde]

51. I currently believe science is the best tool we have to determine facts.

If I am very sick, I go to a doctor because they have allegedly studied the science of medicine.

As far as I know, there is no scientific test to determine if something is morally good or bad.

[Rex]

52. So if I stomp on your toe and laugh about it, you cannot get mad at me?

You live in a strange world, my friend.

[ZombieHorde]

56. I am able to get mad, but my anger would be an added element to the situation.

If I thought you stomped on my toe and laughed in order to flirt with me, I might be flattered.

I have had people hurt me and steal from me without me getting mad. I don't like to get mad, so I try to think of the situation in a way that doesn't disturb me. I try to remember that people usually only hurt me or steal from me because it gives them pleasure to do so. For example, the person who molested me as a child only did so for sexual pleasure. It was nothing against me; I was just available.

[Rex]

58. I was wondering why you are so unattached to the human factor.

I am sorry that happened to you, but almost every person you will ever meet will tell you that was an act of evil (the person that molested you) and will also call it a fact. Just the way the world works.

Now if you want to be of the opinion that there is no good or evil, that too is your right.

[ZombieHorde]

60. I understand what you're saying, and I can relate to it.

I have many of those same feelings. I just consider those feelings to be subjective. My belief system states that people add a "layer" of interpretation to our experiences. These interpretations shape our experiences by having us focus on some things while ignoring other things. We need some of these interpretations in order to survive, but they still make our experiences subjective.

Now if you want to be of the opinion that there is no good or evil, that too is your right.

I believe good and evil are interpretations of experiences. I believe we invented the concepts of good and evil in order to categorize and discuss our emotional reactions to our experiences.

[Rex]

61. Well I believe we create good and evil, like we do anything else and it can be measured

in both qualitative and quantitative ways.

Good and evil might not be tangible, but the effects are very tangible and real and throughout history measured in many ways in many societies. Of course ultimately we can believe what we want, free will etc.. but deviant behavior is still categorized even in science we see it in data from experiments. As compared to standards we created that are also concepts.

Science is great, but really not something to useful in determining good and evil as compared to something like common sense. Didn't we invent everything that is not a discovery? So that really has no meaning in this type of discussion.

[Hemmingway]

11. It's a fact.

[FreakinDJ]

34. A rather Biased Opinion - but an opinion none the less

So do you prescribe to the belief "domestic violence can ONLY be perpetrated on fairer sex"

[ZombieHorde]

47. I believe domestic violence is a term to describe

violence that happens between people who identify as being in a romantic relationship, such as the bureaucratic/social/rhetorical construct of marriage. My definition of the term doesn't include sex or gender.

[CreekDog]

39. as if posting against the mistreatment of women somehow implies support for mistreatment of men?

please.

[ZombieHorde]

48. I wrote, or thought, nothing of the sort.

I agreed with the OP, except with the claim that the opinion stated was a fact.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. The sad part is --

It has to be said.

[CreekDog]

40. actually it doesn't have to be said

name a feminist here who supports domestic violence against men? you can't.

of course, you can find men here who think the penalties for domestic violence towards women are too harsh.

[CTyankee]

4. Nobody is arguing that all domestic violence isn't wrong.

But you knew that.

[boston bean]

9. Damn, women can't even point out the overwhelming numbers of

female murder victims of domestic violence. It is almost 90% female that are murdered.

Can't even discuss the reasons it is so overwhelmingly female, or how the justice system fails, or the cultural aspects of it.

We must consider every victim of every crime there is along with it.

We can't dare focus on the women. Else, we are bigoted.

The patriarchy, a wonderful thing, aint it!?

[CTyankee]

10. It's a typical straw man argument...

what, exactly, is the point?

[boston bean]

12. That people are bad if they focus on scourge that is done to women.

Or if one is to make a post about female victims, you are automatically not caring about male victims of violence.

Therefore one is a very very bad, uncaring person for doing so....

That's my take.

[CTyankee]

13. It reflects poorly on the person making that argument...

it comes across as self serving and not at all sincere. Nobody here has stepped forward and said "our violence is worse than your violence." That simply hasn't happened.

[boston bean]

14. I think that the fact that almost 90% of female murder victims of Domestic Violence

and a very huge percentage of those committing the murder are male, make some very uncomfortable.

I can see why. It's not a very nice thing that some males are doing. But they take it personally, like one is attacking them.

So, you if you want to talk about the violence perpetrated on women, you have to add in the male victims as well. Or else, you are possibly a misandrist, or just a very very uncaring, bad person for not including them in your discussion regarding the reasons why the stats bear this out. You cannot discuss this from a sociological stand point, nor from a gender stand point, nor from a cultural stand point. Or else!!!!!

Mind you in reality, one is just discussing the effect on women and the reasons why it is so. They aren't men haters, and they do feel for all victims of violence.

[CTyankee]

15. The statistics speak for themselves.

That said, no one here has disputed that all violence, esp. in our violence prone country today, victimizes us all. We cannot live in a decent society with this level of violence in our midst.

[boston bean]

16. Agreed.

[The CCC]

22. Damn, women can't even point out the overwhelming numbers of

Actually it is not. Males outnumber female victims at around 3 to 1.

[boston bean]

23. Really 3x as many women are killing their male partners in fits of raging Domestic Violence?

[KitSileya]

45. Here's a good example of an MRA talking point on DU.

See post 19 on this thread by Spider Jerusalem.

Not saying that you are an MRA, but what you claim is a typical MRA talking point, twisting the facts to suit their agenda. To requote what Spider Jerusalem posted:

The claim of gender parity in domestic violence, or at least of much less difference than is conventionally believed, is nothing new, in fact it’s been popping up – and out of the mouths of Men’s Rights Activists – since at least the 1970ies. No matter how often or how robustly ‘gender symmetry’ claims are rebuffed and refuted, its advocates continue to regurgitate their position.
...

In fact, if these issues are taken into account, research consistently finds that violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women and levels are consistent with data of reports from the police. This is supported by data from the Crown Prosecution Service that shows that across the five years between 2007/8 and 2011/12, 93.4% of those convicted for crimes relating to domestic violence were men.

http://kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

[hughee99]

24. You can't even discuss it? Really?

There's more than 50 threads over the last few months discussing such things.

Such threads usually attract the "what about violence against men" posters, and those posts often get this response, "this thread isn't about that, it's about the specific issue of violence against women". Absolutely fair enough, and kudos to those posters who work to keep the thread "on topic". I won't deny that there are those looking to disrupt here or those just looking to stir some shit up.

This is a thread that makes a statement that seemingly no one should have an issue with, and under other circumstances, may have been replied to with a series of simple "agreed n/t" responses. You don't like when someone comes into a thread about one topic and tries to expand the scope to take issue with the OP? Well, you just did that here.

[boston bean]

26. I absolutely do not have an issue with this thread. If you are looking for someone

having an issue, such as I describe, you will have to peruse some other threads. To determine for yourself what spawned this OP here.

You are getting it a little bit backwards.

[hughee99]

28. This all reads like two people dragging an argument from one thread into a new thread. n/t

[boston bean]

29. now you're getting it. That is what the OP did.

[hughee99]

30. Was the OP told in the other thread that their statements were "off topic"? n/t

[boston bean]

33. Can't quite recall, but they were.

Why would that make a difference?

[hughee99]

35. Well if someone is told their post is "off topic" then if someone wanted to discuss that

without disrupting the thread, wouldn't the proper remedy be to create a new topic to discuss whatever that poster particularly wanted to talk about. As a new thread, it would be THE topic, and if that's the interest of the poster, they can discuss their issues without disrupting another thread...

Unless, of course, someone comes over from that other thread to continue a disagreement in the new thread.

[boston bean]

36. the meaning of this thread was clear as a comtinuation.

I responded to that.

[dsc]

38. so an honest question

just what is someone supposed to do if they wish to discuss a topic which is off topic for a thread? If they post within the thread then they are disrupting the thread. If they post a new thread then they are continuing the discussion of the other thread. So do they wait a certain amount of time before discussing what they wish to discuss? Do they refrain forever from discussing what they wish to discuss?

[hughee99]

42. My thinking is that they create a new thread.

Last edited Sun Aug 31, 2014, 09:27 PM - Edit history (1)

What seems to happen, though, is that after creating a new OP some topic related to, but not specifically in line with, some other thread, people sometimes come over from that previous thread to complain about the new thread and "what it's REALLY about".

In the end, the topic can't be discussed in the first thread without being considered "off topic" (and it may very well be off topic) but then it gets disrupted in the new thread with facts that don't really relate to it, but to the previous thread. Basically, more off topic posts in the new thread.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

44. I believe the OP of this thread was invited by the OP of the other thread....

....(who you are replying to) to basically start their own thread, stay out of hers, and here it is. The resulting reply, of course, was predictable.

[nomorenomore08]

55. I assumed this was directed more at the "YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT MALE VICTIMS!!!" MRA whiners.

[boston bean]

5. Was there someone disputing this fact? nt

[CreekDog]

6. You're right that it's not a contest

The overwhelmingly larger number of women injured or killed (especially high in gun iwning households...) means it's no contest.

Women lose, like they do in so many ways in America.

And yes it's ok to focus on fixing the worst aspects of it.

[NYC_SKP]

7. Thank you, CreekDog.

No reliable data exists that can differentiate, for example, that young boys or young girls are more likely to be victims of abuse.

If we want to truly be effective, we'll honor those least able to defend themselves without regard to sex or race and call out domestic violence in any form.

I always knew that, in our hearts, you and I agree on things that matter most.

[CreekDog]

17. It's like you tried to derail a thread against the lynching of blacks

Because you were upset nobody addressed lynching of whites, then started a thread to make it seem like the person who posted against lynching of blacks was somehow supporting the lynching of whites.

So see what you're doing?

Don't thank me for agreeing with you, I don't.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. Thank You Creek Dog....you made the exact point I was going to make...

I guess we can never point out how often Black young men are killed by cops because of the fact that once a Black cop might have killed a White person...Or like some racists do...point out that Blacks kill other Blacks too....so who cares about White cops shooting Black kids! Its the EXACT same reasoning only this time with a Misogynistic twist.

This OP is asinine....

[AverageJoe90]

53. Oh, please. Just stop, dude. Okay?

Speaking of derailing.....this is an example, right here!

[CreekDog]

62. Your post only increases my certainty

[AverageJoe90]

63. Erm, what? nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Overwhelmingly, women and children are more frequent victims of domestic violence.

When someone comes into a discussion of domestic violence as a feminist issue and says "but what about the men?" they're minimising the greater issue of domestic violence committed by men against women.

The claim of gender parity in domestic violence, or at least of much less difference than is conventionally believed, is nothing new, in fact it’s been popping up – and out of the mouths of Men’s Rights Activists – since at least the 1970ies. No matter how often or how robustly ‘gender symmetry’ claims are rebuffed and refuted, its advocates continue to regurgitate their position.

‘A third of all victims of abuse are male’

The data referenced, that approximately a third of victims of domestic abuse in the UK are male comes from data from the British Crime Survey. It contrasts significantly from data from police crime reports which estimate that between 80-90% of violence against the person reported is by women assaulted by men.

The main problems with the statistic that a third of reports are by men are

It is about domestic abuse and/or conflict, not domestic violence
The data does not differentiate between cases where there is one incident of physical conflict/abuse/violence or those where violence is repeated. If we look at the data for where there have been four or more incidents, then approximately 80% of victims are women
The data does not differentiate between incidents where violence and abuse are used as systematic means of control and coercion and where they are not
The data does not include sexual assault and sexual violence
The data does not take account of the different levels of severity of abuse/violence, ‘gender symmetry’ is clustered at lower levels of violence
The data does not take account of the impact of violence, whether the level of injury arising from the violence or the level of fear. Women are six times more likely to need medical attention for injuries resulting from violence and are much more likely to be afraid
The data does not differentiate between acts of primary aggression and self-defence, approximately three quarters of violence committed by women is done in self-defence or is retaliatory.

In fact, if these issues are taken into account, research consistently finds that violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women and levels are consistent with data of reports from the police. This is supported by data from the Crown Prosecution Service that shows that across the five years between 2007/8 and 2011/12, 93.4% of those convicted for crimes relating to domestic violence were men.

http://kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

[nomorenomore08]

57. The main takeaway, for me, is that women are far more likely to be seriously injured or killed

by domestic violence. No MRA talking point can seriously dispute that - not that they care.

[SecularMotion]

20. It's even worse when a gun is present

Statistics on Domestic Violence & Firearms

Guns increase the probability of death in incidents of domestic violence.

Firearms were used to kill more than two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse homicide victims between 1990 and 2005.

Domestic violence assaults involving a firearm are 12 times more likely to result in death than those involving other weapons or bodily force.

Abused women are five times more likely to be killed by their abuser if the abuser owns a firearm.

http://smartgunlaws.org/domestic-violence-and-firearms-statistics/

[trumad]

25. yawn

[CreekDog]

43. +1 more yawn

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. I am sorry something happened to you. Since you did not go into specifics. I just apologize

generally.

I am sorry you had to witness something horrible and I am sorry that you were a victim of something that must have been terrible to go through.

Obviously, you are still hurting. I hope that you can see a therapist and maybe work out some of this residual anger that you seem to be experiencing.

I wish you well.

Peace.

[NYC_SKP]

31. Thank you.

Small wonder that I have come to respect you so through the years.

Best and warmest regards,

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. The Feeling is mutual. You are a good egg, NYC_SKP. I know that you mean well

and have good heart. You try to do what you think is right and, that is all that can be asked of anyone.

[CreekDog]

41. actually don't the sheer number of instances suggest it's a greater concern?

is murder a bigger problem in East Palo Alto than in Palo Alto?

yes.

does saying this mean that one doesn't think an individual murder in Palo Alto is a bad thing?

no.

you can't even find a post that represents the thing you're complaining about.

[flvegan]

54. Hold on..."Add to the list, violence perpetrated upon children and animals.. "

Didn't you JUST make a suggestion about pitbulls in another thread?

But then, as a vegan you know well what personal actions and speaking out against violence against animals really means, right?

[davidn3600]

59. Excellent post

Domestic abuse, child abuse, and animal abuse is wrong no matter who does it.

Sad some people here try to twist it around.

[nomorenomore08]

64. So much disingenuous "What about the menz?" bullshit out there in Internet-land

that perfectly legit OP's like this one wind up tarred with the same brush. Sad, really.