Ukraine: Five facts and fallacies you need to know about the US-Nato drive to war

[Karmadillo]

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ukraine-five-facts-and-fallacies-you-need-to-know-about-the-us-nato-drive-to-war#.VASCIMV0xki

Ukraine: Five facts and fallacies you need to know about the US-Nato drive to war
Stephen Cohen 30 August 2014.



Fallacy No. 1: Ever since the end of the Soviet Union in 1991, Washington has treated post-Communist Russia generously as a desired friend and partner, making every effort to help it become a democratic, prosperous member of the Western system of international security. Unwilling or unable, Russia rejected this American altruism, emphatically under Putin.

Fact: Beginning in the 1990s with the Clinton administration, every American president and Congress has treated post-Soviet Russia as a defeated nation with inferior legitimate rights at home and abroad. This triumphalist, winner-take-all approach has been spearheaded by the expansion of NATO—accompanied by non-reciprocal negotiations and now missile defense—into Russia’s traditional zones of national security, while in reality excluding it from Europe’s security system. Early on, Ukraine and, to a lesser extent, Georgia were the ultimate goals. As an influential Washington Post columnist explained in 2004: “The West wants to finish the job begun with the fall of the Berlin Wall and continue Europe’s march to the east…. The great prize is Ukraine.” He was echoed in 2013, on the eve of the current crisis, by Carl Gershman, head of the federally funded National Endowment for Democracy: “Ukraine is the biggest prize.”

Fallacy No. 2:There exists a “Ukrainian people” who yearn to escape centuries of Russian influence and join the West.

Fact: As every informed person knows, Ukraine is a country long divided by ethnic, linguistic, religious, cultural, economic and political differences—particularly its western and eastern regions, but not only those. When the current crisis began in 2013, Ukraine was one state, but it was not a single people or a united nation. Some of these divisions were made worse after 1991 by a corrupt elite, but most of them had developed over centuries.

Fallacy No. 3:In November 2013, the European Union, backed by Washington, offered Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych a benign association with European democracy and prosperity. Yanukovych was prepared to sign the agreement, but Putin bullied and bribed him into rejecting it. Thus began Kiev’s Maidan protests and all that has since followed.

more...

[Fred Sanders]

1. Ukraine is indeed a great prize, to both Russia and to the West. So much value to the West that

they will even support the overthrow of a fairly elected government and give support to fascists that want to join Europe and NATO.

Let East Ukraine decide its own government, how about that? And let its votes count.

[polly7]

2. + a Bazillion. nt.

[brooklynite]

12. I see: "Overthrow" means "the decision of a freely elected Parliament", does it?

[Man from Pickens]

40. That's not quite how it went down

The decision was made by a rump parliament with the eastern regions not represented in an environment of mob violence, in a manner not consistent with existing law. The current PM was put into office on the heels of an election in which the eastern provinces were not represented; before that there were zero elections to affirm the democratic legitimacy of the post-coup government.

The elephant in the room is the IMF's promise of much-needed billions to the government in Ukraine - if and only if it went to war to secure the eastern provinces.

What the current government is doing - trying to impose itself by force on regions in which it is not wanted, regions which had no input in selecting that government - is more akin to conquest than to putting down a rebellion.

Ultimately the democratic solution is for the people in those regions to make their own decision as to what their future looks like. NATO, the State Dept., EU bigwigs, natgas speculators and various other foreign interests are in the way of that outcome.

Here are some additional details of which one would not be aware from Western "mainstream" news outlets, but are true nonetheless: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/05/chronology-of-the-ukrainian-coup/

[jeff47]

14. It's always fascinating when the votes should only count

when they agree with your opinion.

Ukraine voted in a new government. They started talking about alignment with NATO due to Putin's aggression. That election is fraudulent, despite zero evidence of actual fraud, because you don't like the result.

Meanwhile, an election that rewards Russia's invasion and Russia ignoring it's 1995 treaty with Ukraine would be just fine.

[sabrina 1]

15. That 'fairly elected govt' which was the result of a coup aided and abetted by

neo-nazis there, has since FALLEN APART. Which was predictable. Our 'guy Yatze' has resigned, perhaps you haven't been following events in Kiev.

The IMF, which most thinking people would never wish on ANY nation, has now shown its hand and is offering one of their stranglehold 'loans' to Ukr, which means Ukr will never be able to pay it off and will have to sacrifice much of their national resources which will be offered up at bargain basement prices to the highest WESTERN bidders from Wall St.

Read Shock Doctrine to see how the IMF/World Bank has strangled nations for decades, stealing their natural assets, see Greece for their latest theft of a nation.

It's astounding to see ANYONE on the Left now supporting that horrendous, thieving organization that has destroyed so many nations, see the once sovereign nations of Europe right now, Ireland, Spain, Greece eg after they finished with second and third world nations.

Eastern Ukrainians do not want to be enslaved to the IMF. And anyone denying them the right to remain free of that enslavement cares nothing for the people of Ukr obviously.

[polly7]

16. Nailed it, Sabrina ..... as always.

[sabrina 1]

18. Thanks, polly. Sometimes I wonder if people here know anything about the

IMF/World Bank's disastrous history wrt to once sovereign nations. As someone once described them, 'they are the equivalent of an invading army, marching across the world. Only their most effective weapons are not necessarily military, they are economic'.

When they finished with third world nations, they moved to second world nations, and the final coup has been Europe, and here though a bit more slowly so far.

The Left has ALWAYS been fairly well education on this destructive entity. It's quite shocking to see ANY support for it here above all places.

Remember Wolfowitz's reward for lying us into Iraq? He was given the position of Head of the World Bank. All our wars are connected to these entities in one way or another.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. they know. That is what is more disturbing. They know and they don't give a rat's ass. nt.

[sabrina 1]

35. I guess I was giving them the benefit of the doubt because to think that anyone

here would support the enslavement of ANY country to the IMF is just too unthinkable to me.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. The pull of jingoism is very strong.

[Cayenne]

54. You must be a Putin lover to point that out

[sabrina 1]

61. That HAS been suggested, actually. I am in the process below thread of attempting

to get clarification on whether those of us here on DU who have always opposed these neocon wars, are ACTUALLY being accused of being 'Commie lovers' or if it is just my imagination. Those old McCarthy propaganda tactics were certainly around thanks to Rove, during the Bush era, but NEVER on a Dem forum. Which is why I am trying so hard to find out if I am merely imagining I am seeing them now right here on DU.

That, if it is case, and I am giving those who appear to be using them a chance to correct me if I am wrong, should be on the list of things not allowed here on the Liberal Forum. To call any Democrat who deeply cares about this country a 'commie sympathizer' here on DU is something I never thought I would see.

[polly7]

62. I was actually amazed at all those here who seem thrilled to see the already

suffering people of Ukraine under the oppressive thumb of the IMF. What would happen if the IMF were in control of the U.S. or Canada? People would fight it, of course. But apparently other people's lives don't matter in the slightest when there are resources (in Eastern Ukraine) to be controlled and the IMF's policies to further enrich the oligarchs of the world.

[sabrina 1]

66. I am amazed by as lot of things I am seeing on DU lately. Eg, I am deeply troubled by seeing

something I never, EVER thought I would see on this Liberal forum. I am trying to get clarification further down in this thread before I decide what I might want to do about it.

I am actually seeing Rove/McCarthy accusations against Liberals here on DU of 'hating America' and 'loving Commies'. They are being made in a sort 'some people' general kind of implication but, and maybe I'm too sensitive to these kinds of attacks on Americans who dare to oppose our Neocon FP, I am getting the impression that I am being called a 'commie lover/blame America firster'. I want to be sure before I accuse them of dragging those despicable anti-Democrats talking points to DU of all places. So I have specifically asked for clarification. I am waiting to get it as of now.

[polly7]

69. Sorry for that Sabrina, I really am, and understand your concern.

I'm Canadian, and have been called it all .......... and more. I expect it, and it's just empty, meaningless hatred now that I take in stride pretty well (usually, unless it gets too personal).

I hope you get your answer.

[jeff47]

24. Exactly what I said.

You have a million reasons why the election is wrong when you don't like the result.

But Russia invading Ukraine? Oh, that's just fine when an election after-the-fact goes Russia's way.

Invasions are wrong. Even when they're done by people who are not the United States.

[jeff47]

77. And there we move on to the next step

Unbridled rage when confronted on the contradiction.

the govt YOU are claiming to be legitimate, to be NOT LEGITIMATE.

That would be the part where you declare the election fraudulent because you don't like the result. Despite zero evidence of fraud.

For example, you keep claiming it's a fascist coup. Problem with that is there is an actual fascist party in Ukraine, and they won only a tiny portion of the vote. If the fascists are installing a fraudulent government, don't you think it would be more than 12% fascist?

You will shortly claim the fascists are utterly incompetent. Despite the fact that you claim they successfully took down Ukraine's government.

Anytime you want to discuss the FACTs of these issues, let me know.

Racial slurs, false accusations, and claims with zero data to back them up. And you're claiming you want to discuss facts.

That's hilarious.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

84. Excellent response.

Thanks for cutting through the bullshit.

[truth2power]

31. "How Can You Tell Whether Russia has Invaded Ukraine?"...

By Dmitri Orlov

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39547.htm

A little wry humor, here... I especially like #2:

2. The look of military activity on the ground in Donetsk and Lugansk has changed dramatically. Whereas before it involved small groups of resistance fighters, the Russians operate in battalions of 400 men and dozens of armored vehicles, followed by convoys of support vehicles (tanker trucks, communications, field kitchens, field hospitals and so on). The flow of vehicles in and out is non-stop, plainly visible on air reconnaissance and satellite photos. Add to that the relentless radio chatter, all in Russian, which anyone who wants to can intercept, and the operation becomes impossible to hide.

[jeff47]

78. Because when US soldiers go on vacation

they wander into Mexico. With their tanks and artillery.

[friendly_iconoclast]

87. I see you've noticed one aspect of doing PR for a tyrant-

One must promulgate what the tyrant wants others to believe, not what most
of them will believe.

As we've seen, though, even the most arrant nonsense will be accepted by
the gullible and/or doctrinaire

[truth2power]

41. And another book recommendation...

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins.

On point, Sabrina. Thanks.

[sabrina 1]

56. Thanks, I actually got to talk to Perkins on a Dem forum several years ago.

[MattSh]

70. When did they vote in a new government?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[jeff47]

85. May 25, 2014

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Euromaidan_and_2014_revolution

That would be the government that some people claim is fraudulent, since the election didn't go the way they wanted.

[MattSh]

94. Bzzz. Try again.

There was a president elected that day and some local offices. The legislature, the Verkhovna Rada, did not hold elections. The previous Ukrainian parliamentary election was October 28, 2012.

A new president does not a new government equal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada

[Tommy_Carcetti]

97. Was the Rada ever removed when Yanukovych flew away with his oil paintings in tow?

Answer: No. It was not.

Even the interim government was comprised entirely of elected members. There was no "junta" to speak of, in part because there was no "coup" to speak of.

[jeff47]

98. It's a good chunk of the government

Especially the part the deals with foreign policy - you know, whether to talk to NATO or Russia, and how do deal with the rebels.

But again, not the result you were looking for so it doesn't count.

[MattSh]

101. Oh bullshit...

I fucking live here. Don't tell me about what you've read in the local fish wrap.

Get your head out of the fucking TV...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

102. You apparently live there but you've made no doubt here you dislike Ukrainians.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024677598

Don't try to paint yourself as any independent on the ground expert that we have to keel to.

[jeff47]

105. Yes, it's just the TV. That's why I linked to the TV.

Oh wait.....

In the US, we don't declare it a new government every 2 years, despite Congress getting elected every two years. In France, they talk about the Sarkozy government and the Hollande government. Despite the presidential elections being separate from parliamentary elections. There's plenty of other examples.

There was an election. The people voted. A large number of people don't like the result, and are claiming the election is fraudulent. Using whatever argument they can dig up. Haven't managed to provide any actual evidence of fraud though.

[MattSh]

111. And you haven't shown any evidence you know what you're talking about... nt

[amandabeech]

108. Parliamentary elections are scheduled for Oct. 26, 2014. n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

93. When was the old government ever forcibly removed?

That's a much better question.

[Boreal]

115. None of what you wrote is true

And it's all Neocon talking points and propaganda. No new government was "voted in". It was a violent, western engineered, coup d'etat. Some members of the Rada who were opposed to what was happening received late night visits from Right Sector. Beatings, threats to family members, even homes set on fire. That was all followed by an impeachment of Yanukovych by the rump Rada. They violated their own constitution by declaring impeachment without the required number of votes. Their constitution also specified that upon impeachment the charges are reviewed by a high court. That never happened, either. The only thing that happened was the election for a president, three months after the coup. That had an abysmal turnout but Porky was elected. Elections for the Rada are scheduled for October. Ukraine still has a communist party and members of that party hold seats in the Rada. If they get re-elected, which is very possible since social benefits have have slashed or are not being paid at all, they will probably be kicked out because Ukraine is also looking at "lustration" or removing any leftists or communists serving anywhere in government. The fascists in Ukraine have been talking with NATO since long before the coup. NATO has been courting Ukraine for a long time. There has never been any Russian aggression. A fascist coup went down with leadership who calls ethnic Russians and Russian speakers SUBHUMANS. The people of Crimea voted to join Russia and the people of Donbass voted for federalization - you know, like the United States was set up. For that, Kiev sent it's minions east to start murdering them. Now they don't want federalization anymore, since thousands of them have been KILLED, their homes destroyed, their villages, towns and cities reduced to rubble. They want their own state, free of the Nazi failed state of Ukraine mafia state. Gee, who doesn't want to remain part of a racist, murderous fascist state? The people of east Ukraine, that's who and they will never be part of Ukraine again.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

124. Yanukovych voluntarily left the country under his own willpower.

He took three days to load up literally truckloads of his most valuable possessions, and then flew away in his own private fleet of helicopters to Russia.

That's not a coup.

[SidDithers]

3. I missed the part where NATO annexed all those countries...

Maybe the former Soviet republics, after having lived under the bootheel of Russia for so many years, decided they wanted to give freedom a try.

Sid

[truth2power]

4. NATO represents freedom?

See fallacy#3.

[SidDithers]

6. No. The freedom is in their ability to choose their allegiances...nt

Sid

[truth2power]

13. Yep. Yanukovych chose and look what happened to him.

See Fallacy #3 (again).

[sabrina 1]

19. Exactly, lol. Yanukovich did make a choice, he chose not to be enslaved to the IMF and then

he was driven out of office. Lol, some choice the people had.

[polly7]

46. But, but, but ..........

he wasn't 'really' driven out!, he could have stayed and been tortured and sodomized in the street like Gaddafi, but survived, somehow!

[sabrina 1]

67. Yes, he could have done that. The old illogical propaganda we used to get

during the Bush years has somehow made its way to over to 'our side'.

The murder of Gadaffi was a vile act that, as both Bishop Tutu and Mandella stated, was an act 'no decent person could condone'. It was sickening. And Libyans are living to regret that invasion by NATO also as we who have been following that country's total collapse predicted.

Btw, are Bishop Tutu and Mandella still acceptable people here? So many are under the bus I am never sure who to refer to anymore as credible?

[polly7]

71. Hmmm ..... not sure, but I think there's a whole train now, so I'm sure they'll fit too. nt.

[sabrina 1]

17. Maybe it would be better to ask their latest victims, in Iraq eg. But I get your point.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Well, the Russian bogeyman gives NATO with a raison d'etre and more money for the MIC.

Last edited Mon Sep 1, 2014, 12:05 PM - Edit history (1)

[geek tragedy]

7. more cheerleading for Russian imperialism and aggression.

I especially like the "Ukraine isn't a real country so Russia should be able to invade it" line of argument from Cohen, a notorious Putin apologist.

Some people are openly in favor of imperialism if that imperialism pisses the US off.

[SidDithers]

8. The fringe left has really latched onto Putin...

Frankly, they should be embarrassed.

Sad that they're not.

Sid

[sabrina 1]

30. Who are the 'fringe left' here? The ONLY place I have ever heard that term used

in this country is by far right wingers, speaking of 'fringe'.

Since you have introduced it here on DU could you explain what you mean? I'm sure it isn't the same meaning we are so familiar with from the fringe Right in this country, which is why I am offering you an opportunity to clarify your meaning.

Thanks in advance.

[SidDithers]

42. Sure. I consider those on the left, who have latched onto Putin..

and who think RT is the greatest thing since sliced bread, to be fringe. I don't consider them to be mainstream left by any means.

Putin's biggest cheerleaders seem to be fawning admirers on the Right, who love him because they think he's decisive, and manly, and doesn't wear mom jeans, and those from the fringe left, who seem to love him because he sticks his finger in the eye of "the West" with regularity.

Sid

[sabrina 1]

53. Sorry, you are still not being clear as to who you are accusing of hating this country

and 'loving' Russia. I asked for clarification, this is an extremely sensitive topic here in the US. Its history isn't all that long ago and there are still those, granted mostly on the far fringes of the Right, who try to resurrect that old McCarthy propaganda against Democrats. I am asking you to name names so that we can actually find out who is here supporting Russia/Commies. I imagine they should be exposed as this Forum is for Democrats generally considered to be PRO US, not PRO RUSSIA as you imply.

If you are not willing to provide PROOF rather than what appears to be an attempt to 'imply suspicion' using people's reading material, another McCarthy tactic against the Left, then I will assume you have NOTHING. But I will be free to note that you are dragging McCarthite tactics to THIS forum against Democrats as will many, many other DUers. And rightly so.

However you have an opportunity to expose these actual US haters you seem to be saying are on this forum.

[SidDithers]

75. "hating this country" are your words, not mine...

and this is why I don't engage you in conversation.

I answered your question. If you don't like my answer, too bad.



Sid

[sabrina 1]

81. You dredged up an old Right Wing anti-Democratic attack on Americans and I asked you to

clarify what you were trying to say. If there are 'pro-anything-that-makes-America-look-bad 'commies here, you did imply that there were 'pro-commies' here which you claimed to know due to their reading material, and now you are backing off, I asked you to expose them.

Thanks, I knew there were no DUers who did not love their country enough to try to stop the destruction begun under the Bush administration. As they will continue to do.

I remember when Karl Rove went to NYC and used pretty similar language, re 'Liberals' being 'pro Saddam or whatever he was spewing that day, mainly implying that Liberals do not love their country.

It was a thing of beauty to see what happened to that little, chicken hawk that day as the internet took over spreading his hateful attacks on Liberals, regarding their love for their country and tens of thousands of Democratic Veterans responded to the little cowardly chicken hawk and his nasty implications.

I hope this means we never again see those Rovian tactics here on DU used AGAIN against Americans from the Dem side of the aisle questioning their 'patriotism' again. Whenever I see them, I will make sure to expose them.

[SidDithers]

95. tl:dr...

You should know by now that I rarely read your voluminous replies.

Sid

[polly7]

127. Hard work, right?

Really hard work. Really, really hard work. You and George lol.

[SidDithers]

129. No, just really pointless work...

'cause it's basically the same long-winded post over and over and over.

Sid

[polly7]

130. Like I said ....... nt.

[SidDithers]

131. You didn't say anything, polly...

Sid

[truth2power]

36. What's with all this either/or stuff, Sid...

<sigh> Demonize Putin at all costs.

You're not trying hard enough. Here, I'll help...

They're "pootlickers" ** Yeah, that's it.



**Not my term. Someone else's. I'm not that creative.

[eridani]

9. You can start calling Russia imperialist when it has 800+ military bases all over the world

Not until then. Also, how does Russia's military spending compare with that of the only imperialist country in the world?

[truth2power]

11. Thanks. n/t

[NuclearDem]

22. Just because the US is imperialist

doesn't mean Russia isn't as well.

In fact, some of us are opposed to both. Maybe you should join us at some point.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. Unfortunately, political Manichaeism is still alive and thriving...

...as evinced by this thread

[War Horse]

29. Do I detect some sanity on this issue?

Yes, I actually think I do

[geek tragedy]

23. I can call a country that invades its neighbors and seizes their territory and tries to beat

them into submission using armed force imperialist, thank you.

I do not subscribe to the "the US is the most evil thing ever" empirical assumption, so there is little we will agree on.

[sabrina 1]

39. Who subscribes to the 'the US is the most evil thing ever' empiracal assumption??

I remember being accused of that by Bush supporters when I opposed the Iraq War. It was Rovian tactic I learned later, to ignore the reasons why many patriotic Americans who loved and many who had fought for their country, opposed destroying their country by embarking on Imperial Wars as warned against over and over again starting with the FFs by people who actually DO love their country.

You are not subscribing to this Rovian tactic I am sure. So who is you believe on DU thinks the US is the 'most evil thing ever'?? We absolutely need to clarify these statements here as many of us remember all too well how Rove manipulated the intentions of good citizens when they opposed his criminal warmongering among other things and would NOT want to think that Rove has any influence HERE, the place most of us came to escape the far right moronic talking points they got from Rush and spread them around the web.

ARE you saying that those of us who still oppose the neocon warmongering as we always did, are 'hate-America-Firsters'?? I absolutely refuse to believe you are even suggesting that here.

[leftstreet]

25. +1

[sabrina 1]

33. Now you are introducing facts to the conversation.

[polly7]

72. +1000! nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

79. Russia has long had a history of imperialism.

That you accuse us of a similar mindset is neither here nor there.

From the Russian Empire (get it? Empire? Imperialism?) to the Soviet Union (the Russian Empire revived under the populist guise of Marxism), Russia has a long history of imperialism and attempting to dominate foreign people and nations. One that is once again showing its ugly face.

[eridani]

110. Involving encroachment on its immediate neighbors. Same with China. Have either

--ever established military bases 6000 miles from their own territory? Do either have military bases in Africa or South America?

[AgingAmerican]

104. How many bases

...or how much money spent, does not define imperialism. Grabbing resources and invading countries does.

Putin's particular brand of Imperialism is linguistic. He claims to owe protection to Russian speakers in the former Soviet colonies of the Eastern Bloc that have broken away from unwanted Russian rule. Under this logic, Portugal could re-occupy Brazil and Spain can retake most of Central and South America. And the UK could legitimately invade the USA, Canada and Jamaica.

Putin is a right wing expansionist/fascist. As such, he will fail miserably.

[Xolodno]

109. I did a facepalm when I saw "Russian Imperialism"....

My wife's family had to bail out of Persia when the coup happened there....but according to some here, using their definitions....it wasn't a coup.

The USA fucked around on Russia's doorstep...and lives have been lost as a result. What's worse...too many say its "Putin's fault" for not allowing the USA to "set up shop" to check Russia's economic growth.

I've pretty much given up responding to the usual suspects...you can't get rid of the cold war mentality of some.

[sabrina 1]

21. Now you will be able to provide links to these 'conclusions' you have reached regarding

who these people are who are in favor of Imperialism.

Wait, you mean NATO, never mind, NATO HAS become the army of all the former and current Imperialists who invaded so many Continents throughout their shameful histories.

Sorry if I misunderstood you. But it's always better not to use 'some people' when you want to make a clear point, it causes confusion as to your meaning.

Btw, can you explain why NATO has gone outside of its stated charter and intervened in non-NATO countries over the past number of years?

[polly7]

45. I used to be proud we were a member of NATO. nt.

[Cha]

112. This is Especially rich, too.. excusing Putin's Homophobia.. they hate the US so much that anything

Putin does is okay.. ted cruz likes him better than President Obama, too..

snip of the quote..

"Every country has a progression with respect to gay rights. Putin

AND the Russians still don't believe in it. I am not going hold him responsible for doing what the people want, especially when 6 girls create a riot in public. If these girls would have done that here in 1970, they would have gotten far more time that what was given Pussy Riot in Russia."

Poor poor putin..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5471759


"This miserable S.O.B is now threatening nuclear war"..

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-says-russia-ready-respond-aggression-123956691.html

Don't mess with nuclear Russia, Putin says
Reuters
By Alexei Anishchuk 5 hours ago

LAKE SELIGER Russia (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said on Friday Russia's armed forces, backed by its nuclear arsenal, were ready to meet any aggression, declaring at a pro-Kremlin youth camp that foreign states should understand: "It's best not to mess with us."

Peacetrain http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5462329

"Ted Cruz Calls Obama A 'Kitty Cat' Next To The Russian Bear"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014884607

"Some people are openly in favor of imperialism if that imperialism pisses the US off."

ExFuckingZactly! And, twist themselves into damn pretzels to swear it's okay for Putin but Distract Distract Distract for the past history of the USA when this is Current History of the Homophobic DICtator, Vlad Putin.

[davidpdx]

118. Those 6 "girls" protested a violation of human rights

I find the specific language used the original sentence amusing. Let's minimize who they are. They must be lost waifs because how dare they protest.

It is appalling that people defend Putin's homophobic behavior.

[Cha]

120. Exactly, david.. I could not believe that rationalization.. smh. "I am not going hold him

responsible for doing what the people want, especially when 6 girls create a riot in public."

Oh "Especially ".. Putin could not be more proud for his US faction propping him up in such a grand manner.

[truth2power]

10. Thanks for posting, karmidillo...

Anyone interested in countering Western propaganda can check out this link:

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com

The person who calls himself 'Saker" is committed to providing objective reporting of the ongoing events in Novorussia, aided by a team that translates from the Russian. Saker also speaks Russian.

Note: The usual suspects will, no doubt, be along shortly to assert that the above site is anti-Semitic. I can only say, what better way to discourage people from reading information that the propaganda-meisters don't want known. Read carefully and decide for yourself. And, speaking of anti-Semitism, one can wonder why the US is supporting a neo-Nazi junta in Kiev.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. It is, indeed anti-Semitic- and here's some links to prove it

Jury/admin note: This is strong stuff that I would not post, save for the fact the site is
being touted at DU. I believe the posts there speak for themselves
(You will also note some truly world-class CT to go along with the antisemitism)

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.



http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/06/very-interesting-admission-by-senior-us.html

Bingo! For all the wrong reasons (the usual crap about a resurgent and revanchist Russian Empire), Hill is absolutely right: Russia has absolutely zero interest in the "Western project". Yup! From 1991 (and really even before that) to 1999 Russia was an imperial colony run by a collection of mostly Jewish oligarchs who hated Russia and who literally stole everything they could.

The comments are equally charming:

The Synagogue of Satan and it's minions are foaming at the mouth.

Guess what... most AMERICANS are not interested in the West's new world order project either. Most people HATE what America has become. So move over Putin. Out of the way Russia. The stampede is coming. And its US citizens and taxpayers tired of the crap their country has been perpetrating around the world against people who have done us no harm. Ambassador Hill is just another Rothschild stooge -- a tool for TPTB -- a shill for moar Bankers Wars.

No one would survive an actual war. What you are advocating is for Putin to step into the bear trap and save the Anglo-Zionists from themselves.

mata h ari said...

What a load of crap if not BS from Christopher Hill. Matched against facts and reality, what he said was just rationalization to make the Imperial US Empire look good and President Putin and Russia look bad. "Rationalization" here can be equated to just pure lies,bunkum, and misinformation. He forgets Libya and Georgia. In the latter, Imperial Washington under "Emperor Caesar" Barrack Obumma, Tbilisi was urged to attack Russia and Russians like an attack dog. Now it is Ukraine. What's this nonsense about betraying the NWO?

Shocking, the kind of lies coming out from the Obumma's Administration these days. It gets more blatant and more incredible and unbelievable each day.

The aim of the Judeo-Christian global Empire of Eternal exceptionalism has always been to destroy Russia and China, smash them into fragments, then rule over the entire planet forever, just as Yahweh wants.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/could-glazev-be-right-request-for-your.html

Anonymous said...

There is absolutely nothing that he said that I can argue with .
Ukraine was/is occupied by the US.
His reasoning for the regional war in Europe that can only benefit the US, is spot on.
The Zionists not only don't care about the population of Ukraine, they clearly want them all dead.
No amount of casualties can slow them down.
Ukraine has only 0.2% of Jewish population and yet the government is 99% comprised of Jewish Zionists -this makes no sense.
This whole conflict is directed against Russia, China and Eurasia.
The Zionists hate Slavs because Slavs know more about Zionists than any other race on the planet.
The conflict is not designed to be stopped in Ukraine, it is designed to engulf as much of Europe as possible.
The fact that Russia has people like Glazev in the government is a very encouraging and hopeful sign.

This is a huge mistake. The Zionist/NWO Elites who rule the USA (via Israel) do NOT have the economic & military interests of the USA in mind. What they want is a global population cull, reducing the world's population by at least 80%, with an end result in which they are the rulers of a world reduced feudalism, technology only available to the Elites, and complete control of everything - by them. The ideology underlying this is a mix of Jewish racial supremacy (we are God's chosen people, all others shall be our cattle or dead), distorted Gaia-ism (Earth must be purged of the human plague), Fascism (we deserve to rule, we are the only ones fit to rule, all who resist must die), and outright Satanism. But really it's just murderous psychotic insanity, dressed up as politics and reinforced by group-think of an inbred bunch of lunatics.

Most of the people who visit this blog recognize the Anglo-Zionist elites have declared war on humanity. These people are literally psychopathic monsters. They are our first and only true enemies but try as we might, we will never reach them. They can neither be influenced nor turned. They will pursue their genocidal goals to the bitter end and it's important for all of us to recognize this and adjust accordingly.

The main thing that we must understand that Russia's problem is not in Washington, not in Brussels and not in Kiev. The problem of Russia - in Moscow, in those elites who still dragging the country into a vile 90-that is, These elites are about Putin. Once again, I note here Surkov, who at the beginning of the zero years was considered the main direction of internal policy of the fight against so-called "Russian fascism", of course, completely fictional. I remember how I came on Seliger in 2004, and the boys and girls of the movement "Nashi", when I began to talk about Russia as a world power, all shouted: "No. Better tell about Russian fascism. Vladislav Yurevich believes that the main danger of Russia "Russian fascism". And this outstanding rusofob delivered today to defend Russia in deadly geopolitical battle?! So our problems here in Moscow, and not in some capitals and sinister plans of Washington, and to save the country it is necessary to personnel changes at the top."

The people Krupnov is talking about here, who are working to undermine Russia from within, are zionists. This is how Israel works to destroy Russia, while it "officially" displays a smiling face and false attitude of non-involvement, Israeli agents, such as those named by Krupnov carry out the real zionist Jewish agenda of neutralising Russia as an independent rival to their ZPC.

...The aim of the Judeo-Christian global Empire of Eternal exceptionalism has always been to destroy Russia and China, smash them into fragments, then rule over the entire planet forever, just as Yahweh wants. Their actions allow for no other interpretation and this guff about offers of friendship would only apply to the Quisling sonderkommandoes, the heirs of Yeltsin, that the Empire would require to keep the population suppressed. Slavic Suhartos and Mobutus.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/frances-1-zionist-bashes-putin-and.html

All the zionists and quislings working for the empire are coming out to attack Russia. They must be desperate. Hope the Russians could liberate the rest of Europe from this evil empire chains, just like in the time of Czar Alexander

The Anglo-Zionist Empire is pulling out all the stops

[Tommy_Carcetti]

68. 3-4 to keep. Enjoy your bigotry, folks.

SMH.

[MattSh]

76. Calling that site anti-Semitic sounds like an easy out...

It's easier to call it anti-Semitic then to read carefully and understand what's being said there.

[friendly_iconoclast]

80. The "Zionists are trying to take over the world" theme is heavily promoted there

Don't get me wrong- no party in the Russia/Ukraine situation has clean hands, IMO

Saying "X is wrong, therefore Y is right" is ahistorical and nothing more than
political Manichaeism

Promoting simplistic black/white thinking should have died with Brezhnev and Reagan.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

88. Well, except for the ACTUAL EXCERPTS he posted....

....of course it's not an anti-Semitic at all.



Keep on apologizing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

96. There's a lot of "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" thing going on here

Of course, in real life "the enemy of your enemy" is usually just better at
hiding their true feelings towards you...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

100. People falsely assume that the mere presence of a few fringe ultranationalists in Ukraine that:

a) the Ukrainian government is fascist and anti-Semitic as a whole.
b) the Ukrainian people are historically fascist and anti-Semitic by nature
c) that the pro-Russian separatists fighting in the east are fighting against fascism and antisemitism.



People who think that really don't know what's going on, no matter how they want to paint themselves as "experts" in the conflict.

[geek tragedy]

107. That site is anti-semitic. That is not opinion, it is indisputably true.

The matter has been resolved beyond any honest doubt.

Only bigots and fascists would promote a site whose proprietor writes this nonsense (direct quotes from the bigoted fascist scumbag The Saker himself):

am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/05/ukrainian-news-two-phone-call-leaks.html

That site is run by pieces of Nazi-like bigoted garbage.

An easy way to spot a fascist is if they promote that website.

Certainly I hope you will avoid promoting and defending a Nazi-like website.

[geek tragedy]

91. we have fascists and bigots at DU. Team Putin are such lovely people nt

[davidpdx]

117. OMG

[truth2power]

121. Yes, it is being touted on DU, because, your calling it an anti-Semitic site does not make it so...

Last edited Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:36 PM - Edit history (1)

First, VineyardSaker is a site that strives to present as objective a report as possible of the events taking place in Ukraine, currently. Those reports contradict, in nearly every way, the propaganda put out by the Western media and by officials of the US Government.

But let's address your claim of anti-Semitism by Saker, the owner of the site, and of some of those who post comments.

Here is a statement that I posted in another venue that's relevant to the discussion:

Given the ethnic-cleansing that's gone on in Gaza, I can understand the rage that some (including myself) feel, and it follows that some individuals might feel compelled to say intemperate things about Jews, in general. People have been cautioned about that on Saker's site, and I have seen NO indication that Saker, himself is anti-Semitic. And to throw his whole site down the drain on a charge like that is idiocy.

That said - I think it's way past time for there to be a discussion about Political Zionism and it's influence on world affairs. I am reading and educating myself to the best of my ability, and it appears to me that a Political Zionist and a Jew are not necessarily one and the same.

Even Joe Biden identified himself (if I'm not mistaken) as a Zionist, at one point, and he's not Jewish.. It's my opinion that the ideology of political Zionism is driving part of the chaos that's occurring in Ukraine. This needs to be discussed.

For too many years any criticism, whatsoever, of Jews, Israelis, or of Zionism was deemed to be anti-Semitic. A Jewish woman told me, back in the day, that criticism by a non-Jew was labeled anti-Semitic; If a Jew did it, they were labeled a self-hating Jew. It seems that that continues, even to the present day. There's no way to win that argument.

Around 14 years ago, when DU first began, there was a period of time when ALL criticism of Joe Lieberman, no matter how well-reasoned, was labeled anti-Semitic. How absurd. I knew, back then, that Lieberman was a grifter and a low-life, because he had convicted himself by his own statements. Eventually, the general public got wise, but not before the McCarthyite censoring had taken place. When practically everything is labeled anti-Semitism, then the term loses any meaning at all.

What I stated above is indisputably true. Anyone who has the ability to find posts from the old DU could document it. I don't even know how to get back there any more.


> > > > > >

So, since you posted many excerpts and links, I guess I can post a few of my own. Given the unpleasantness in Gaza, courtesy of the IDF (it's that "blowback" thing) more and more people seem to be finding their voice when it comes to Israel AND even Zionists. Some of them are even Jews (of the self-hating variety).

Here's a link to the NYT ad placed by Holocaust survivors: http://observer.com/2014/08/ny-times-runs-ad-from-holocaust-survivors-condemning-israel-attacking-elie-wiesel/

Oh my! I see the ad is sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network.

If Saker is anti-Semitic, he has an odd way of showing it. Here's what he said about a video he posted in which a young Jewish woman describes how she feels about being called a self-hating Jew for wanting peace and justice in the world.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 19, 2014

Two videos which help me fight my disgust with mankind

Note: the second video he references has nothing to do with this discussion. It's a speech by a novorussian militia member.


I will honestly tell you that I often feel a sense of total despair and disgust with my fellow human whose behavior often makes me forget how beautiful humans can also be. Tonight, I want to share with you two videos which, besides their obvious political message, simply reminded me that humans are also beautiful and that they carry inside themselves an "inner dignity" which gives them the courage and resolve to oppose evil regardless of their chances to prevail.

George Galloway, British MP who regularly criticizes Israeli war crimes was recently set-upon on a public street and severely beaten by a man wearing **a shirt with an IDF logo and Hebrew IDF motto on the front. According to Galloway , from the man's recent comments on his Facebook and Twitter accounts, her was a fanatical Zionist; a fanatical supporter of the IDF whose shirt he was wearing.

Galloway further stated, "If a Muslim fanatic supporter of Hamas had attacked, say, a pro-Israel MP on the streets of London, would this story now be bigger than the story about the attack on me? Would the charge have involved terrorism? And I think any fair minded person would conclude that the answer to both those questions would be 'yes'." **

NOTE: The text enclosed in asterisks is my promised edit for accuracy.

&list=UUzSq7O3MmG-EF0Gq68uSjPw


Amy Goodman one hour interview with Henry Siegman, former head of American Jewish Council.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39558.htm

some quotes:

"The Zionist Movement, at its birth, was founded on a myth. That is: Palestine; a land without people for a people without land"

"Is this necessary for Israel to survive? A Zionist dream based on slaughter of innocents?"

"Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than the Zionist Movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland.

And so forth. Extraordinary interview. Throw Amy under the bus.

And one more:

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/mourning-for-a-judaism-being-murdered-by-israel

Mourning for a Judaism being Murdered by Israel - Rabbi Michael Lerner

snip>

The worship of the state makes it necessary for Jews to turn Judaism into an auxiliary of ultra-nationalist blindness. Every act of the State of Israel against the Palestinian people is seen as sanctioned by God. Each Sabbath Jews in synagogues around the world are offered prayers for the well-being of the State of Israel but not for our Arab cousins. The very suggestion that we should be praying as well for the Palestinian people’s welfare is seen as heresy and proof of being “self-hating Jews.”

snip>

It is this love, compassion, justice, and peace-oriented Judaism that the State of Israel is murdering. The worshippers of Israel have fallen into a deep cynicism about the possibility of the world that the prophets called for in which nation shall not lift up the sword against each other and they will no longer learn war, and everyone will live in peace. True, that world is not already here, but the Jewish people’s task was to teach people that this world could be brought into being, and that each step we take is either a step toward that world or a step away from it. The Israel worshippers are running away from this world of love, making it far less possible. And yet they call their behavior “Judaism” and Israel “the Jewish state.” If Judaism’s call for a world based on social justice, peace, and love for “the other” is dismissed as impossible under current conditions, the least we could ask of Israel is that it describe itself as “a State with many Jews” rather than as “a Jewish state” since the latter implies some connection to Judaism and its prophetic tradition.


> > >

The point of all this is that many people are speaking out (some of them are even Jews. And yes, some of them are angry.)

And when some of them speak of Zionism perhaps they're referring, in their own mind to that ideological craving for power that really is in danger of 'murdering' the Judaism of love and compassion.

Oh, and I don't care whether you read this or not. Someone will read it. If it doesn't get deleted.

[KoKo]

122. Thank You for pulling together those videos and articles. Recommend!

Well worth the watch and read...

[truth2power]

126. thanks for the k&r, KoKo. I still don't think they get it, though. No one who posts on DU

could be that dense.

[friendly_iconoclast]

123. Israel/Palestine has nothing to do with Ukraine, save in the minds of Vineyardsaker posters

One wonders when one of them will revive "The Protocols of The Elders of Zion"...

I must admit, however, your post was rather well-done for a tu quoque

I'm not thrilled by some of the actions of the Israeli Government and its supporters,
but then again I (like most people) gave up on simplistic black/white political
Manichaeism after adolescence.

I'm definitely getting the strong impression that certain DU posters are acting as an "Anti-Zionist Citizens Council", while the Vinyardsaker posters and their ilk serve as the Ku Klux Klan

[geek tragedy]

89. That site and its readers are Jew-hating fascists. The site OWNER (the Saker) says this about Jews:

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/05/ukrainian-news-two-phone-call-leaks.html

I am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).

More:

I will go as far as saying that Rabbinical Judaism is, in my sincerely held conclusion, Satanic at its core and at least as evil as Wahabi Islam.

Very revealing who supports and promotes fascist bigotry.

[MohRokTah]

20. It's unbelievable the amount of propaganda posted here in support of a tyrranical regime.

Seriously fucked up propaganda, too.

[truth2power]

48. "Tyrranical regime." You mean the neo-Nazis in Kiev? ...

Yes, it is unbelievable.

[MohRokTah]

55. More Russian propaganda. eom

[MattSh]

99. Speaking of a tyrannical regime, aka Ukraine...

Note: If you don't see English captions, or a button on the lower right to view captions, you may need to go to Youtube to view the video. This woman is a local Deputy in Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

27. You mean there's no such thing as a Ukrainian people? What the hell is this shit?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/regional-polls-show-few-ukrainians-russians-want-a-united-single-state/

Your article is total shit.

I guess because we have tea party conservatives living in the same country with die hard liberals, there's no American people, either.

[polly7]

34. CITIZENS of Ukraine who have every right to protest and protect their cultures as do anyone else.

By John Pilger
Source: teleSUR English
July 12, 2014

~snip~
In February, the US mounted one of its “colour” coups against the elected government in Ukraine, exploiting genuine protests against corruption in Kiev. Obama’s assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland personally selected the leader of an “interim government”. She nicknamed him “Yats”. Vice President Joe Biden came to Kiev, as did CIA Director John Brennan. The shock troops of their putsch were Ukrainian fascists.

For the first time since 1945, a neo-Nazi, openly anti-Semitic party controls key areas of state power in a European capital. No Western European leader has condemned this revival of fascism in the borderland through which Hitler’s invading Nazis took millions of Russian lives. They were supported by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), responsible for the massacre of Jews and Russians they called “vermin”. The UPA is the historical inspiration of the present-day Svoboda Party and its fellow-travelling Right Sector. Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok has called for a purge of the “Moscow-Jewish mafia” and “other scum”, including gays, feminists and those on the political left.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States has ringed Russia with military bases, nuclear warplanes and missiles as part of its Nato Enlargement Project. Reneging on a promise made to Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 that Nato would not expand “one inch to the east”, Nato has, in effect, militarily occupied eastern Europe. In the former Soviet Caucasus, Nato’s expansion is the biggest military build-up since the Second World War.

A third of the population of Ukraine are Russian-speaking and bilingual. They have long sought a democratic federation that reflects Ukraine’s ethnic diversity and is both autonomous and independent of Moscow. Most are neither “separatists” nor “rebels” but citizens who want to live securely in their homeland. Separatism is a reaction to the Kiev junta’s attacks on them, causing as many as 110,000 (UN estimate) to flee across the border into Russia. Typically, they are traumatised women and children.

On 2 May, in Odessa, 41 ethnic Russians were burned alive in the trade union headquarters with police standing by. There is horrifying video evidence. The Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh hailed the massacre as “another bright day in our national history”. In the American and British media, this was reported as a “murky tragedy” resulting from “clashes” between “nationalists” (neo-Nazis) and “separatists” (people collecting signatures for a referendum on a federal Ukraine). The New York Times buried it, having dismissed as Russian propaganda warnings about the fascist and anti-Semitic policies of Washington’s new clients. The Wall Street Journal damned the victims – “Deadly Ukraine Fire Likely Sparked by Rebels, Government Says”. Obama congratulated the junta for its “restraint”.

Full article: http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-return-of-george-orwell-and-big-brothers-war-on-palestine-ukraine-and-truth-2/

Of course they're people. ALL OF THEM.

[truth2power]

51. Excellent, Polly! Unfortunately, John Pilger can't be shoved under the bus...

There's no more available space there.

Maybe someone can come up with a bus-annex somewhere.

[polly7]

57. Haha ..... I think they've confiscated a whole train just for these journalists. nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

58. The vast majority of Ukrainians want a single unified state. Even those in the east.

It's that simple, and no amount of spin from the author of the piece in the OP can try to obfuscate the realities.

And the Pilger piece is nothing more than the tired old word stew that the pro-seperatist apologists have been churning out for months.

[polly7]

59. Yawn. nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

82. Yeah. Yawn whenever your claims are disproven. nt

[polly7]

83. Sure they were. You've been at this with me for so long you can't even remember

how often I disproved your propaganda.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. Tell me again about the "coup" you so often talk about...

....where the deposed leader takes three days to pack up his valuable antique collection and then fly away under his own power in his fleet of helicopters.

Yes. The things you claim are easily disproven.

[polly7]

90. You're hilarious, Tommy. The 'coup' has been well-documented so many

times here I bet you know it by heart, yet you still believe a leader who's seen the carnage and violence would stick around to be tortured and sodomized in the street.

Very strange.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

92. Show me the evidence of an actual coup. Show me how Yanukovych was forcibly removed.

Stories about cookies and phone calls don't count.

I want evidence and proof that in late February 2014 Victor Yankovych was forcibly removed from power against his will by a specified group.

If you need to, feel free to consult the accepted definition of coup d'etat.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d%27%C3%A9tat

coup d'état
noun \ˌkü-(ˌdā-ˈtä, ˈkü-(ˌdā-ˌ, -də-\

: a sudden attempt by a small group of people to take over the government usually through violence

[SolidarityforFreedom]

103. evidence of a violent coup

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=34e_1392746107

[Tommy_Carcetti]

106. Was Yankuvoych forcibly removed against his will? Yes or no. nt

[KoKo]

125. "A third of the population of Ukraine are Russian-speaking and bilingual..."

Thank you Polly 7....


"A third of the population of Ukraine are Russian-speaking and bilingual. They have long sought a democratic federation that reflects Ukraine’s ethnic diversity and is both autonomous and independent of Moscow. Most are neither “separatists” nor “rebels” but citizens who want to live securely in their homeland. Separatism is a reaction to the Kiev junta’s attacks on them, causing as many as 110,000 (UN estimate) to flee across the border into Russia. Typically, they are traumatised women and children."

[polly7]

128. You're welcome KoKo.

And that was back in July. The humanitarian crisis since then has escalated dramatically. Those 'pro-Russians'/Pootie-Poot lovers/terrorists - CITIZENS of Ukraine are suffering horribly, and the numbers who have managed to escape are much, much higher now, as are the deaths and injury. In their OWN country, ffs.

[sabrina 1]

43. Not a very good attempt to change what the article actually says.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

52. It calls the notion of a Ukrainian people a "fallacy". How more clear can they be?

That's the exact same bullshit Putin was peddling earlier in the week.

[sabrina 1]

63. Really, can you point out exactly where it does that? My reading of it is

that Ukr is NOT a monolithic nation, which is true of this country also eg.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

65. Right, but we're not calling to break up our country over different regional attitudes.

So why is it suddenly right to champion such an idea for Ukraine?

[AgingAmerican]

113. Putin is doing this

under the guise of 'rescuing' Russian speaking people in the Ukraine. That was Pooty Poot's justification for the annexation of the Crimea. The term is 'linguistic Imperialism'. It is the same justification Adolph Hitler used when he invaded Poland. He alleged there was persecution of German speaking Poles in Eastern Poland (the Polish corridor). Same shit, different century. Lemme guess, the Godwin's Law strawman? NOT

I just laugh when Russian apologists cry, "McCarthyism". Think about it. A right wing fascist is invading a country under the guise of saving said country from right wing fascists. Bwhahahahahaha! Hilariously weak strawman argument. Fortunately Putin is a tinpot fascist and will fail.

If linguistic Imperialism is a legitimate reason to invade, why can't the UK invade the USA and Canada? Or Portugal invade Brazil? It is a very weak and historically failed pile of crap excuse for violent expansionism. But that doesn't stop Putin from doing it anyway, does it?

[davidpdx]

119. Yeah, they all "belong" to Russia

At least that's what will happen after Putin finishes his ethnic cleansing.

[War Horse]

37. The article starts out well

Fallacy no. 1 is so true. But it all builds up to fallacy 4 "The radicalized Maidan protests, strongly influenced by extreme nationalist and even semi-fascist street forces". While this has a small grain of truth to it, this is what the pro-Russians, *and* especially the Russians, have run with like Fox News running with a Jim Hoft meme.

This article brings up a lot of important points, but most likely change anyone's minds. Had it been less agenda driven, perhaps it might.

[Purveyor]

44. kick. Thanks for posting. +1 eom

[polly7]

49. I just want to add this, because I think it's important to realize the

implications of broken agreements and the former invasions that have killed not thousands, but millions in a country that's been lied to and about over and over. (And no ..... I'm not a 'Putie-poot lover'.)

Ukraine: An Analysis

By David McReynolds

March 9, 2014

Russia has no natural barrier – no river, no mountain range – to guard it on its Western border. It has suffered invasion from the West three times in recent memory – under Napoleon and then twice under the Germans. In the last invasion, under Hitler, between 25 and 27 million Soviet citizens lost their lives. All the factories, dams, railroads. towns and cities West of a line from Leningrad in the North to Moscow to Stalingrad in the South were destroyed. Americans make much of 9.11 (and I don’t make light of it) but for Russia it was not just a handful of buildings in one city which were destroyed – it was entire cities, leveled. And then with the wounded to care for, the orphans, the widows.

Americans have never understood what the war meant to Russia and why, after the war, the Soviets sought to build a “protective band” of territory between itself and Germany. This was Eastern Europe, which under the iron boot of Stalin became “people’s democracies” or “presently existing socialism”.

Something Americans (perhaps including our President and the Secretary of State) have forgotten was that Russia wanted to make a deal with the West. It had made peace with Finland, which (again, memories are short and we have forgotten this) fought on the side of the Nazis. The Soviets withdrew from Austria after the West agreed that Austria, like Finland, would be neutral.The Soviets very much wanted a Germany united, disarmed, and neutral. Stalin did not integrate the East Germany into the Eastern European economic plans for some time, hoping he could strike that deal. But the West wanted West Germany as part of NATO, and so the division of Germany lasted until Gorbachev came to power.

I would have urged radical actions by the West in 1956 when the Hungarian Revolution broke out – it was obvious that if the Soviets could not rule Eastern Europe without sending in tanks (as they had already had to do in East Germany in 1953), they posed no real threat of a military strike at the West.

What if we had said to Moscow, withdraw your tanks from Hungary, and we will dissolve NATO, while you dissolve the Warsaw Pact.

But of course the West didn’t do that. The US in particular (but I would not exempt the Europeans from a share of the blame) wanted to edge their military bases to the East. When the USSR gave up control of Eastern Europe, the US pressed for pushing NATO farther East, into Poland and up to the borders of Ukraine.

http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/ukraine-an-analysis/


....."When President Gorbachev accepted the unification of Germany as part of NATO—an astonishing concession in the light of history—there was a quid pro quo. Washington agreed that NATO would not move “one inch eastward,” referring to East Germany.

The promise was immediately broken, and when Gorbachev complained, he was instructed that it was only a verbal promise, so without force.

President Clinton proceeded to expand NATO much farther to the east, to Russia's borders. Today there are calls to extend NATO even to Ukraine, deep into the historic Russian “neighborhood.” But it “doesn't involve” the Russians, because its responsibility to “uphold peace and stability” requires that American red lines are at Russia's borders."

http://www.alternet.org/putins-takeover-crimea-scares-us-leaders-because-it-challenges-americas-global-dominance?page=0%2C1&akid=11793.44541.Ck7lmV&rd=1&src=newsletter990910&t=3


Excerpts: In February of this year, US State Department officials, undiplomatically, joined anti-government protesters in the capital city of Kiev, handing out encouragement and food, from which emanated the infamous leaked audio tape between the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and the State Department’s Victoria Nuland, former US ambassador to NATO and former State Department spokesperson for Hillary Clinton. Their conversation dealt with who should be running the new Ukraine government after the government of Viktor Yanukovich was overthrown; their most favored for this position being one Arseniy Yatsenuk.

My dear, and recently departed, Washington friend, John Judge, liked to say that if you want to call him a “conspiracy theorist” you have to call others “coincidence theorists”. Thus it was by the most remarkable of coincidences that Arseniy Yatsenuk did indeed become the new prime minister. He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine don’t need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings. But the American media obscures these motivations by almost always referring to them simply as “pro-Russian”.

An exception, albeit rather unemphasized, was the April 17 Washington Post which reported from Donetsk that many of the eastern Ukrainians whom the author interviewed said the unrest in their region was driven by fear of “economic hardship” and the IMF austerity plan that will make their lives even harder: “At a most dangerous and delicate time, just as it battles Moscow for hearts and minds across the east, the pro-Western government is set to initiate a shock therapy of economic measures to meet the demands of an emergency bailout from the International Monetary Fund.”

Arseniy Yatsenuk, it should be noted, has something called the Arseniy Yatsenuk Foundation. If you go to the foundation’s website you will see the logos of the foundation’s “partners”. Among these partners we find NATO, the National Endowment for Democracy, the US State Department, Chatham House (Royal Institute of International Affairs in the UK), the German Marshall Fund (a think tank founded by the German government in honor of the US Marshall Plan), as well as a couple of international banks. Is any comment needed?

http://williamblum.org/aer/read/128

Also validated are the fears of many of the 'pro-Russian' people of Ukraine.

He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine don’t need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings.

[oberliner]

50. Fallacy #2 is not a fallacy

Those people definitely do exist.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. Of course they do. But admitting it would get in the way of Putin's goals. nt

[Laughing Mirror]

64. That map is pretty telling

Excellent information from Stephen Cohen.

Thanks, Karmadillo!

[Blue_Tires]

73. Another day, and another hit piece blaming the whole ordeal on NATO

and whitewashing Moscow...

I guess I should feel relieved you didn't post another easily debunked bullshit MH17 conspiracy piece...But I have a feeling that's what you have planned for tomorrow...

[Nye Bevan]

74. Putin really is an all-around good guy.

And you can't really blame him when his troops accidentally cross the border into Ukraine and flatten a few towns.

[nationalize the fed]

114. K+R Excellent post

It's an info war and you're on the front line

[TwilightGardener]

116. I now believe we should encircle and contain Russia. Because

Putin is higher-rent version of Kim Jong Un. So, here's to NATO eventually taking in Ukraine. Maybe Finland, too.