DON'T Leave Discussionist Alone

[mindwalker_i]

DU has become, to some extent, a support group - and really, that's fine. However, it's a valuable exercise and experience to allow your deeply held beliefs to be challenged. I have done just that, and it's made my beliefs stronger, generally. Having them challenged forces me to see beyond my ideology and to respond logically.

The first step to wisdom is to challenge your own beliefs and to allow others to challenge them. Seriously, if anyone thinks they've got it all figured out, they're stupid. If your ideology can't withstand a challenge, it isn't based in reality. So get the fuck over there, allow yourself to be challenged and challenge yourself. It's too easy to win an argument when everybody agrees with you.

[Hoyt]

1. As much as I detest many of opinions expressed there, I agree with you.

[mindwalker_i]

5. Me too

I really disagree with a lot of conservative viewpoints, mostly having to do with abortion and war. It's a good opportunity to state my beliefs and to challenge their's.

[R B Garr]

2. What about the part where you are stalked, harassed, and threatened for your beliefs?

That seems to be the main issue currently with Discussionist.

I've only looked there a couple times and didn't find it particularly intriguing. Half of the discussions were about other posters, banned posters, who hates whom. Meh.

[sabrina 1]

16. I've been stalked here and on several other forums. Should we shut this place down because

of a few internet trolls? There wouldn't be any internet if a couple of trolls caused sites to shut down. So one troll made some vile comments, got hidden by FOUR DIFFERENT JURIES and almost within a half hour got his posting privs revoked. Is there something else that should be done when a troll shows up? I was pretty impressed at how quickly even Conservatives on the juries, hid those posts.

Or maybe we should stop posting on the internet because of trolls. There's an idea.

[Laelth]

21. Just fyi.

You have been thanked on Discussionist, HERE.



-Laelth

[sabrina 1]

35. That is very sweet, I am especially touched since Graham and I have disagreed so

often on issues, or perhaps more on how to achieve what we want in politics. However, he has always been respectful and that was a very nice thing for him to do. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, I would not have seen it otherwise.

[Laelth]

36. My pleasure.

I also thanked you in another post, HERE.



-Laelth

[sabrina 1]

49. What a nice comment, thank you again!

[Gothmog]

48. You started a good thread

[sabrina 1]

50. Thank you Gothmog!

I appreciate that.

[Laelth]

51. Just fyi.

I publicly thanked you too--HERE.

And I still love your handle--Sauron's third-in-command. Thanks for all you say and do.



-Laelth

[Gothmog]

61. I love DUers

Not many know the reference

[R B Garr]

60. A lot of what you're saying makes sense, but I guess I'm more comparing what I saw

from links to another site that they -- "they" -- migrated from, if we can say it, the Cave. There was a whole forum dedicated to basically stalking people on DU to the extent that they plotted to cause them actual harm IRL by calling their jobs or whatever means they deciphered to involve themselves in your real life. Now they're using that site to plot against DU'ers here. Really scary and sad.

It's one thing to disagree on the internet, but it's another thing entirely to start calling someone's job. If they "they" have the mindset going in that harassing you IRL is an option for them, why would I want to be a part of that. Plus the stupidity. OMG, the stupidity. I can't even for a nanosecond think that anyone who voted for Bush has anything remotely intelligent to say about -- anything. Plus, I don't suffer fools very well, and even with the jury system here, it's just fodder for people to escalate passive-aggressive games to ridiculous levels. I can only imagine what it would be like there. Although, your point about that vile poster being shut down was a good point.

Don't get me wrong, though, I can see how some people would like it and gravitate to it. You bring up some very valid points. But I probably wouldn't join for the same reason I wouldn't go see a cockfight or bring kids to a gun range or ...... Just not a part of life I'm interested in witnessing. To each his or her own, however.

[edgineered]

3. Exactly

Isn't it amazing that some people go there to see what is being said about them or their views, and then are upset about it. Glad the slam-books we passed around in seventh grade had their educational value.

Tell a person their faults and they will correct them, but never forgive you.

[mindwalker_i]

4. Yeah, if you post stuff on The Internet

people will see it and respond to it. I've been told by people that they don't "appreciate being psychoanalyzed by people who don't know" them, but when they say things that don't make sense, I'm going to try to figure out why. If they don't appreciate being "psychoanalyzed" then maybe they should make sense.

[edgineered]

8. The internets are full of people

with the ability to psychoanalyze me by a few lies, a few truths, and a few leading or misleading statements that I type? Oh my. I hadn't thought that out before and now I am very frightened.

It might be a good idea for me to post that question, just in case, you know?

[BainsBane]

10. Did you see the part about rape threats?

Why do you think this is all about difference of opinion? The ones who have the trouble with different opinions are the men using Discussionist as a staging ground to harass and threaten women on DU.

Your comments are very strange since they have absolutely nothing to do with what the principal criticism of that site is.

[Purveyor]

6. If I knew that the PTB didn't have an active program crosslinking IP's of who

posts on DU to match up with their posts on Discussionist, perhaps I would indulge.

Just saying...

[TreasonousBastard]

7. C'mon, you know there are ways to get around that...

if you really think it would be a problem.

And, why would it be a problem, anyway?

[Purveyor]

9. Not really worth the effort but there are some sources that are not allowed here on

DU that could be interesting if posted on the 'diss'.


'

[trueblue2007]

11. I WOULD NEVER GO TO THAT PLACE OF HATE

i have chronic pain, headaches every week, i'm poor and miserable. why would i go to hell on earth?

i won't be paying for bad forums anymore either.

[sheshe2]

12. Uuuum...

Well, mindwalker, I spend time at DU for many reasons. Great people and great friends. It is a fabulous source of information and sharing of ideas. Do we clash? Oh yes we do.

I don't need to go to DI to allow my deeply held beliefs to be challenged. That happens every day of my life. I have a dad that has dementia, thank the goddess for many years great health care in Mass. Others were not so lucky and now they are insured. I don't know what we would have done without that. I don't need DI to tell me how much Obamacare sucks. Two other family members would have been living under a bridge due to extreme illnesses and accidents, without healthcare. Obamacare is the answer to many of us.

I have viewed them a few times and searched my user name as well, I posted about it tonight. What I found to be said about me was rather amusing. Though there was a thrust to one that wanted to do their best to attack and out people here.

However there seems to be an unhealthy interest in DU and our posters. I find that disturbing when people are being stalked and attacked there. HoF is a huge target and women are not safe as seen from posts here today.

The first step to wisdom is to challenge your own beliefs and to allow others to challenge them. Seriously, if anyone thinks they've got it all figured out, they're stupid.

Well here are a few things I have figured out. Healthcare is working and will continue to evolve. We are women and we are strong and we stand together against the GOP that wants to take away our basic rights. Our right over our bodies, our right to basic healthcare, our right to be paid equally for equal work. We have had enormous strides in equality for the LGBT community. More, so much more, yet it's late. I see no way that DI is going to challenge the beliefs I just stated.

I'm not stupid, mindwalker nor do I want a GOP challenge over at Discussionist.

Your last sentence...

"It's too easy to win an argument when everybody agrees with you."

Seriously? That's what you see happening at DU, everyone agrees with one another? Oh my, you must not post here much if that is what you truly see and believe.

[Katashi_itto]

18. "It's too easy to win an argument when everybody agrees with you." Seriously?

You can't see that various groups have crafted their own echo chambers? Where dissent earns a ban from the group?
Oh my, you must not post here much if that is what you truly see and believe.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. +1000

I also don't really have the time to participate in the community.

[mindwalker_i]

38. "Seriously? That's what you see happening at DU"

To some extent, yes. Specifically, I see that some things are worded to avoid arguments, some topics are avoided. The reality is that if you want to change the world, you have to engage the world, and as a pretty far-left liberal, I would actually like to change the world. However, because we here are all democrats and/or liberal, the arguments developed here all start with a common ideological base. Those arguments are then less likely to sway people with different ideologies, so engaging with those people and refining our arguments helps us make better arguments and have more solid positions.

I will take this a step further. If what I believe is developed here with people that share my ideology, those beliefs are untested in that they haven't been subjected to the rest of the world and I can't trust them. It's like when you're a teen, your knowledge is actually quite limited - it's like a small circle with a tiny perimeter. Teens think they know everything (I did when I was one). As you get older, go to college, experience the world, you learn more stuff and your knowledge is a bigger circle, with a bigger perimeter. And you don't think you know everything any more. I propose a theory that how much a person thinks they know is inversely proportional to the length of the perimeter - as one actually learns more and their knowledge increases, they have a better idea of what they don't know.

"I'm not stupid, mindwalker nor do I want a GOP challenge over at Discussionist. " Bullshit, everybody's stupid. It is no longer possible to be a "Renaissance Man," so everybody has huge limits on their knowledge, even in their chosen fields.

[Gormy Cuss]

13. There's little challenge on a site like Discussionist or Yahoo.

It's poo flinging and more poo flinging with an occasional thoughtful post thrown in. That's pretty much the way unmoderated boards work.

[seaglass]

22. It's true Gormy. Maybe all these people who NEED to got to Discussionist to get opposing views lead

very sheltered lives where everyone they associate with agrees with them.

I have Repubs, racists, sexists, homophobes in my extended family - why would I want even more of that crap?

[Gormy Cuss]

24. It's true. I can debate conservatives IRL any time. Actually do debate them in fact.

I have friends and relatives whose political views range from garden variety Republicans to the most right wing Tea Party types. I don't need to argue with more of their ilk on the internet. That's why I signed up for this Democratic board in the first place and why I'm not interested in Discussionist except to the extent that it's used as a staging ground for attacks on DUers .

[corkhead]

55. Thanks for posting EXACTLY what I was going to say so I don't have to.

I guess that proves the OP's point doesn't it.

[sabrina 1]

14. I agree! n/t

[LittleBlue]

15. Agreed. The Discussionist is very valuable

I prefer my beliefs to be challenged. I don't even participate in non-contentious threads on DU anymore. Everyone has almost the same opinion. It makes contribution pointless when everyone feels the same way.

On DU it is often an ideological circlej- oh wait, that's the other problem with DU. Excessive censorship. I couldn't even complete that sentence if I wanted to because reference to male genitalia would be interpreted as hostile on DU. And no doubt I'd rolling the dice with 7 potentially precious people on a jury. Why bother with with the jury game here? It's tiresome having to scan my post before posting for anything that could be misconstrued as offensive. At Discussionist, I can post what I want. I'm glad Earl has come down strongly in favor of leaving Discussionist as it is. Turning it into a clone of DU would kill it.

If you don't like Discussuionist, don't go there. Simple

[MattBaggins]

32. If you don't like Discussuionist, don't go there. Simple

Back at ya.

You are free to permanently move to DI at any point of your choosing.

[LittleBlue]

53. Dumb reasoning, there. I'm not asking DU to be shut down, am I?

I'm not creating threads demanding a shutdown. Derp.

Since Skinner has expressly invited us to do join both, I will do it. Without whining that one should be shut down if I don't like it.

[Gothmog]

17. It is fun playing with the conservatives on the Discussionist board

They are not very bright and can not deal with facts

[treestar]

33. They run, change the subject, and resort to a logical fallacy

As soon as they are challenged.

[mindwalker_i]

40. Yes, they do, and it is fun

Right when Discussionist started, I got in an argument about abortion with someone and nailed them repeatedly on their just crappy techniques. It teaches me to recognize flawed debate tactics a lot better.

[Gothmog]

47. Flawed debate tactics?

You are being kind. The conservatives over on the Discussionist post GOP/Fox News talking points and expect that everyone would agree with these positions. They are shocked to find that their positions are racist or that they may be wrong in their claims.

[mindwalker_i]

56. In that case, he kept

just asserting that life began at conception. So I pointed out that he was asserting it and not providing any reasoning behind it. Then he started talking about souls, and I pointed out that souls were religion, and thus they applicability was limited to them. "Souls are religion? That's utter BS." Yeah, souls are religion, deal with it or pull one out to be examined.

[Mr Dixon]

19. SMH

Last edited Tue Sep 2, 2014, 09:36 AM - Edit history (1)

I will Pass i can't allow myself to get to involved at work, i have enough tea-party folk at my place of duty, so i really have no need to seek out further debates.

[Paladin]

20. You make Discussionist sound like a Cambridge debating society.

Rather than the racist, misogynistic, gun-addled sump that it's been reduced to by its steadily-growing contingent of hyper-conservatives. It's one thing to have your beliefs challenged, and another to have them shit on. Fair warning to those who choose to pay a visit.

[CTyankee]

23. I find it shallow and boring. It couldn't challenge me on a bet...why?

I SEEK OUT and READ widely and deeply, political books/websites, art history (my hobby in retirement), in addition to the information I get here on DU. I have a great library with wonderful resources. I live in a city full of cultural offerings, not the least of which is connected to Yale University. I have world class museums, Broadway and fantastic music just an hour and a half on a train into Manhattan. Boston with similar amenities just 2+ hours away. And I go to Europe once a year where I have visited the greatest museums on that continent. AS long as I can scrape together enough money to get myself there and I am still standing, I'm going...

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Well said

But - I'm going to take a snotty tone here -

I get more from a museum abroad than I'm ever going to get from some basement dwelling cheeto eating Republican in the middle of America who MAYBE has been over to the next state. Maybe.

[CTyankee]

34. I don't want to be an elitest, but I'd just rather not go to that place...

I really just don't get it and perhaps never will. I don't know what possessed the admins to start that site. It is so clearly inferior to DU in just about every category. The format is just ugly and I guess reflects the overall tone of the place. I care very deeply about the freedom of expression but I don't get why people want to wallow in a pit of vitriol.

[Glitterati]

25. I agree wholeheartedly with the OP sentiments and would add

Regardless of any nastiness over there, leaving their garbage unchallenged means WE allow it to go unchallenged.

What about the people like ME who have never posted there, but occasionally pops over there to read through the threads? If no one is challenging the right wingers over there, the nastiness is allowed to stand as FACT.

If, for no other reason, you can withstand the ugliness, I admire the folks from here who have the courage and fortitude to challenge the right wing talking points and leave them out there publicly for the "browsers" like me to read.

You ARE influencing others just by virtue of refusing to allow their garbage to go unchallenged.

I don't post there because I just don't have time. And, typically, the response I would type out has already been put out there by a DUer braver than I.

But, simply put, if your beliefs and arguments aren't strong enough to withstand DI, then you need to hone them.

[Hari Seldon]

26. Please go there and discuss stuff

Currently its more like shooting fish in a barrel

and then being called delusional for your efforts

[MattBaggins]

29. I'm sorry but my time is precious

and I don't "challenge my beliefs" by arguing with 5 year olds either.

I don't need to challenge my beliefs on racism, bigotry, homophobia and generalized hatred. I know these things to be wrong and due to wisdom; I know it is futile to argue with troglodytes.

YMMV

[PeaceNikki]

30. No thanks. I live among the RW loons and get enough of their BS IRL. The internet is my escape.

[Zorra]

31. Debating silly RW ideas with ignorant juveniles

is as much of a waste of time as debating with an insane person. One of the things that makes DU a cut above is that ninety percent of the mean little misanthropic RW ten year olds are eliminated right out of the gate. We don't need to waste time debating idiot nonsense with Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, and Ted Bundy. But I suppose it's a great target shooting venue for lefties to blow off steam.

[groundloop]

45. ^^^ Exactly... Why must we 'debate' that which is known to be fact?

And especially why must we debate it with people who act so badly?

Some people enjoy a heated argument, more power to 'em. I just don't have time for it.

[Atman]

37. We need a new "Disscussionist and/or HoF" forum.

It's getting tiresome. I scroll through the latest posts and every other one is either "Discussionist Sux!" or "Anyone who doesn't 100% agree with me a misogynist pig!" (99% agreement doesn't even count).

I realize that virtually every human interaction we have involves politics to some degree; from allowing someone with 14 items to go before you in the Express Line, to calling out blatant racism and hatred on a message board. But we've reached the level of absurdity. What we've got now is one extreme or the other -- either allow for "anything goes" or "sit down and shut up."

Maybe it's time for some new tweaks to the system.

[mindwalker_i]

43. "I scroll through the latest posts and every other one is either..."

Can you elaborate on this a little? Are you talking about the posts on DU or in this thread in particular? I kind of think that conversation on DU is a bit stifled, partly because of the "You're either with us or a misogynist," attitude (the word "misogynist" is a fucking wrecking ball around here), and Discussionist may, in fact, be the tweak to the system in that it does bring in debate.

[Atman]

46. I'm talking about DU, and I agree with you.

Regarding the "wrecking ball" comment. I don't have a problem with Discussionist, mainly because it is exactly what it was intended to be. But now the "wrecking crew" is trying to merge the two sites. It's just getting old.

"You're either with us, or you're a misogynist" is spot-on. Of course, now I'll be called a Men's Rights person (which I'm not) and/or a misogynist. It won't be the first time, and it still won't be correct, no matter how many times they post it.

[mindwalker_i]

52. Yeah, I've been called an MRA-dude as well

That happened in a discussion on Discussionist, and I think you're right that the same group is trying to take over there. What they are trying to do is to shape how people think and what they say with respect to women, and to some extent, I can see why and agree with it. However, the people involved are extremists in terms of their ideology. A key point of this thread is that extreme ideology is disconnected from reality, and the "feminists" here are definitely in that state.

It seems like discussing the issue here is impossible, and we're both taking a risk even mentioning it. Maybe it'll be downthread enough to escape notice. I hope that on Discussionist, we can have a better and more open discussion.

[Arugula Latte]

39. It's one thing if both sides are debating in a reasoned, fact-based fashion

but it's another thing entirely if one side is frothing-at-the-mouth, hateful, willfully ignorant lunatics.

[Atman]

41. And which side would the "frothing-at-the-mouth, hateful, willfully ignorant lunatics?"

Isn't it all a matter of perspective?

[Arugula Latte]

42. I don't think you will find many liberals calling people

"n*****s" and "c****s" and threatening rape and to shoot them because someone on the Internet disagrees with them.

Sorry, not buying the "both sides do it" red herring. There just isn't a comparable level of vitriol, hate, misogyny, racism, and threatened violence in the comments of posters on the left.

[Atman]

44. Please don't read more into my comment than what I actually posted.

No, you won't find those particular comments on DU. But you surely find some similar comments directed towards "them."

I also don't buy the "both sides do it" red herring -- if red herring is even the appropriate term. That isn't what I said. I stated that is all just a matter of perspective. Am I wrong? There is a reason "they" post the hateful, rude, nasty comments they post. It's because they think we're totally wrong about everything. So, what then is the reason we post nasty things about them? Because we love them?

Again, don't try to meld your own thoughts into my post. Obviously, you disagree (or at least think I posted something I did not). I personally refer to one of those sites (many of its members now posting on Discussionist) as "The Stupidest Place On Earth." I am truly astonished at what I read there. But do you think that means they don't feel the same way about the Left, and that's why they're posting such pap? Read what I posted, not what you think i posted.

[2banon]

54. As a Leftist, that's an on-going exercise right here on DU.. but you know, have at it.

[HughBeaumont]

57. There's a slight problem with that kind of thinking . . . .

It assumes the DUers and their Dunning-Krugertarians are on equal footing with facts, logic and historical knowledge.

Problem is, you cannot sneeze in a Discussionist thread without hitting hilarious defenses of failed and discredited 1%er friendly policies, deflection, projection, victim-blaming, victim-denying, logical fallacies, red-baiting, revisionist history, blatant sexism, blatant racism and insufferable assholery.

The creators of that site thought they were going to get reasoned debate between DU progressives and Eisenhower conservatives and moderates. Instead, they got Randians, Austrian School crackpots, circular-argument-tossing libertarians and troglodytes who crawled out of a sewer. It's like bringing the worst of Yahoo.com and try to get them on a common plane with people that possess a brain stem.

It's committing The Balance Fallacy, which assumes that both sides of an argument have equal value regardless of merit. Sometimes, stupid is just plain stupid.

[avebury]

58. There is nothing wrong with challenging one another's

belief. What becomes the big problem are the peopel on Discussionist who are, to state it bluntly, bat sh*t crazy and just drag the website down. There are some people that you will never be able to have a rational dialogue with and if the Discussionist moderators don't clean out the pond scum then it is not a website worth visiting.

[mindwalker_i]

62. It's fairly easy to ignore those

Truthfully, there are crazy people on the left as well, although I think there are fewer of them and I tend to share their ideology. In some cases, I'm probably crazy, and to see that I need people who disagree with me to say, "Dude, you're crazy."

[alarimer]

59. It is not moderated enough for a rational conversation.

It is a cesspool of right-wing trolls.

I would say you are correct, but ONLY if the site were well-moderated, with appropriate rules to enable discussion.

As it stands right now, however, it represents all that is evil with the internet. Anytime you allow right-wingers into the playground, they shit over everything. They are like untrained rabid dogs. Misogyny, racism, bigotry of all stripes.

It is not about not challenging beliefs. It's about not engaging with the vile part of humanity that sites like that appear to attract. And it's not as if they have nowhere else to go. They have the entire internet. They have driven decent folks out of most sites because of their vileness.

I think it's disgusting. I really am disappointed in the owners of DU allowing such a place to exist. It serves no useful purpose currently, because the pigs are running rough-shod over everyone else. I knew when they announced it and how it was structured that this is exactly what would happen.

It's only been since the invention of the internet that I have known how hateful most people really are, especially conservatives. How they manage to hide their true ugliness in real life, I have no idea, but they are truly horrific and believe so much vile nonsense that it is really pointless to engage. I want them out of my life entirely.

[mindwalker_i]

64. This is a great illustration

You are calling those who have different ideology and who disagree with you vile and evil, indicating that you think you have all the answers - that you have faith in being right. First of all, everybody is stupid, everybody is blind in that nobody understands all viewpoints. There are things we haven't considered because we haven't been exposed to them. Wisdom is being able to take in that information and use it to either account for it and strengthen your argument, or to adjust your position.

Secondly, believing you're "right" is the road to religion, which is, almost be definition, believing something in spite of the evidence against it. Making decisions based on things that are provably wrong leads to bad results. I'd actually like to fix the world or have some positive effect, so having better arguments that don't rely on beliefs are more likely to sway people's opinions.

[LittleBlue]

63. The troll who threatened Bainsbane is on Discussionist again

thanking everyone for the amusement. Bragging about how effectively he trolled both sites.

Though he is banned again, he wants everyone to know that the shitstorm provided him with great amusement.

Let this be a lesson not to feed the troll next time.

[polly7]

65. I just went there and saw the 'News' page.

The threads and info there are good! Tons of great info I could spend hours catching up on.